Season 2 Episode 3: The BFF

In this episode, we get close and personal with another central character in the Happier Approach: the overindulgent BFF.

In this episode, we get close and personal with another central character in the Happier Approach: the overindulgent BFF. The BFF has good intentions-- she's often jumping in to argue with the Monger when that mean voice of self-criticism gets too loud. But the BFF can push us over the line from self-care to self-indulgence very quickly. Nancy walks us through a typical tug-of-war between her Monger and BFF, and tells us how she's able to quiet those voices.

Nancy also speaks to writer and mental health advocate Jill Stark, author of three books about mental health. Jill tells us about her experience giving up alcohol, and how practicing radical honesty around that tough decision totally kick-started her career as an author. She also shares some tips that she's picked up from her own experiences dealing with her inner critic.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The BFF.

• Tips for recognizing the BFF voice and distinguishing between self-care and self-indulgence.

• Resources and advice from Jill Stark.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to https://jillstark.com.au/

• Check out Jill's Twitter account @jillastark

• Follow Jill on Instagram @jillstark_

• Order Jill's books When You're Not OK, Happy Never After, and High Sobriety through her website: https://jillstark.com.au/books/

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Cold Open

Jill: I’d just say to anyone who is feeling that they’re in a really tough place and that somehow their truffles define them or make them weak or weird or abnormal. You’re not alone. And it is possible to struggle and still be strong and that your vulnerability is your superpower.

Intro

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

So far this season we’ve tackled a few different topics. We’ve talked about where my inspiration to write the Happier Approach came from, and learned all about that mean old Monger. If you missed those episodes, go back and check ‘em out!

In today’s episode we’re exploring another Happier Approach character.

One that’s totally tied to the Monger, but acts like her complete opposite. I call her my BFF.

Music

Wherever there’s a Monger, there’s a BFF. When our Monger gets too loud and overwhelming, the BFF usually chimes in to relieve some of the pressure. She’s the voice that tells me: just hit the snooze button one more time, splurge on that fancy pair of pants that instagram advertised to you because you deserve it. She’s not mean like the Monger. She’s like one of those big red lollipops you get at the bank-- super sugary and a little too sweet. It tastes good but it’s not good for you.

Let me paint you a picture…

Music

Act I: Nancy’s BFF story

The house is quiet and my faithful cat companion Calvin is curled up next to me. With my coffee cup in hand and my laptop glowing in front of me I’m ready to start my day.

Bird chirping/morning sfx

I’m getting an early start because I’m excited to dive into a new project. A course I’m creating to talk about High Functioning Anxiety. And I am pumped to dive in.

Music shift

But… the new project joy doesn’t last very long. Before I can even open my web browser my Monger pops into my head. "You have no clue where to start," she sneers.

In a bid to quiet my Monger and find a starting place, I Google High Functioning Anxiety.

Keyboard tapping sfx

The first person to grab my attention is an anxiety expert. I click over to her website… and immediately my Monger starts talking again. "Her site looks so professional! She uses better buzz words than you do. Look, she says that she cured her anxiety!!! You keep saying you can’t cure anxiety but she says she has, so what is wrong with you!"

Then… like the other little devil on my shoulder

my BFF jumps up: "You can’t cure anxiety!” she screams, “That’s BS and you know it. I mean, who does this woman think she is describing anxiety that way—does she even know what anxiety is!?! Good grief, she did a terrible job. You are going to kick her ass. Your course will be 10000 times better-- just wait and see!"

Ok... I think. Surfing the internet is not helping. I’m just going to do a brain dump and write everything I know about HFA. I open up Word and start brainstorming.

And UGH there’s my Monger again: "This is a mess. At this rate this process is going to take FOREVER. You are never going to get this course done!”

"Ok, Ok that’s enough," says my BFF, "We have PLENTY of time. In fact, let's grab some cheese and crackers. All that mentally energy

and work deserves some food!!”

Sfx run downstairs, munch munch

After a few cheese and crackers, I return to my office, fortified and ready to dive back in. But the tug of war between my Monger and my BFF continues.

"Cheese and crackers—it isn't even lunchtime," says my Monger, "If you worked more you’d get more accomplished. At this rate we might get the course done next year!!"

And then of course, my BFF speaks her mind "We worked all morning, researching and writing. And you need brain food for this project! Protein and carbs are good for you.”

This is how it goes... back and forth, one chiming in then the other arguing on and on until I can't take it anymore!

I get stuck in this dynamic a lot. I hate that I get stuck here. I’m embarrassed that I get stuck here.

Beat

My Monger gets so loud beating me down that I get relief by listening to my BFF. She does one of 2 things. One, she encourages me to stop working and indulge in something chocolate, a glass of wine or some Real Housewives. Or two, she demonstrates how she always has my back, by beating up the other people I’m comparing myself to.

This is where I lived for a long time, jumping back and forth between those two voices. With just a little push from the Monger, the BFF can cross over the line from self-care to self-destruction in a second.

So how do we separate out those voices and really learn to take care of our whole selves. How can we tune out the anxious WWE wrestling match that’s always going on between the Monger and the BFF?

Act II: Jill Stark

Jill: When I was growing up in Scotland, my parents they used to worry that I would get hit by a car because I was literally reading a book as I was crossing the street. I was one of those nerdy kids. And I was always writing stories.

NANCY VO: This is Jill Stark. She’s a writer, mental health advocate, and author of three books about mental health.

Jill: I think storytelling is a very powerful vehicle for connection and for making people feel less alone. And, and feel comforted that their experiences are shared experiences.

NANCY VO: Jill was always sort of an anxious kid.

Jill: I just worried about everything. And you know, beyond the point that you would say, was kind of routine worries for a child like I would, if my mum went out for dinner with friends. And she wasn't back by a time that I had thought she'd be home, but I'd be standing at the window, waiting for her, convinced that she's, you know, died in a car crash.

Jill: I worried about everything from the width of my hips to like, nuclear war. I was worried about global warming in the 80s, before it was even known.

NANCY VO: And Jill’s anxiety was… BIG SURPRISE… accompanied by a loud Monger voice.

Jill: I have an inner critic, a cross between Regina George from Mean girls and nurse ratchet from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

So she’s mean and cutting and sometimes witty and hilarious, but you know,

Jill: pretty, pretty mean.

NANCY VO: As an adult the inner critic that stoked Jill’s anxiety-- it didn’t go away. But as she got older and moved from her native Scotland to her now-home in Australia-- she found other ways to cope. To quiet the nagging feeling that she didn’t quite fit in.

Jill: Alcohol gives us permission in our minds, to behave in a certain way.

Jill: It's sort of like, this sort of invisibility cloak, this sort of protective shield that we wrap around ourselves, and it's somehow going to give us these super powers of confidence and wit and conversational skills.

Jill: For me, alcohol was kind of this gateway to belonging and to being seen as this fun party girl who fit in, when really that's just a myth.

Beat/Music

Jill: I was about to turn 35. I had woken up on New Year's Day 2011 with a hangover that I honestly thought was going to kill me it was so awful.

Jill: But I had a pretty violent panic attack as I was in my car driving to go to McDonald's, to try and find some comfort for my pain. I just had this real sort of sense of something has to give here. I mean, I don't identify as an alcoholic, I wasn't someone who was, you know, waking up and craving a drink. But I was certainly someone who relied on alcohol very much in social situations.

Jill: But when I woke up with that hangover, in 2011, I just there was, you know, when you, you have that voice inside you that instinctive kind of guiding internal voice that is always there, but we often ignore it, we particularly can often ignore it if we pour alcohol in it and try to block it out. But it was starting to get louder with that hangover saying something has to change. You can't go on like this. You've been doing this since you're 13 years old. And it wasn't working for me anymore.

NANCY VO: At the time, Jill was a journalist, specifically a health reporter. And she had actually done a lot of reporting on alcohol consumption in Australia.

It’s a country with a strong drinking culture.

Jill: The thought of not drinking for three months from January to the end of March, which in Australia is summer, you know, and it also included my 35th birthday in that period, the idea of not drinking for three months, absolutely terrified me.

Jill: So I decided to give it a crack.

NANCY VO: Jill started blogging about her experience of giving up alcohol. And her editor at the paper suggested that at the end of all of it, she should write an article about everything she’d been through. But there was a catch. Jill would have to out herself as a health reporter with an unhealthy relationship to drinking.

Jill: It was just this complete like, cognitive dissonance like this complete disconnect between what I was writing and my own lived experience. I was really nervous.

Jill: I had really good contacts in that space, some of the most senior people in the country who were advising the Prime Minister on, on Australia's drinking guidelines, and these are like really clever neuroscientists and addiction medicine specialists, who had been my contacts, and all of the sudden I was outing myself as part of the problem.

Tense music

Jill: The night that it went to press, as I was leaving the newsroom on the Saturday afternoon, my editor said to me, as I was walking out the door, enjoy your last night of anonymity and kind of laughed, and I was just like, oh, what the hell have I done.

Beat

And sure enough, the next day, everything just went absolutely crazy,

Jill: I had more comments and emails, and feedback on that piece than anything I've ever written in my career.

NANCY VO: It turns out that the radical honesty of Jill’s article really resonated with people. She was tapping into her own self-loyalty. And it really paid off. Not only did she learn a lot about herself by not drinking, she got to write her first published book all about it.

Jill: High sobriety was more than anything, a journey of self discovery.

NANCY VO: It’s pretty common for the BFF to encourage us to use alcohol to escape. When she was writing High Sobriety, Jill realized that numbing out with alcohol to cope with anxiety kept the Monger in her strong.

Jill: If my greatest fear is being left alone, and outside of the group, then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy that I try to act in ways that will prove like see, I am defective, and unlovable because everyone left me, because I'm trying to prove this theory by behaving in ways that push people away.

Jill: So that's the way that I used alcohol.

Beat/music

Jill: We do often use comfort, whether it's food or alcohol or shopping, as a way to give us comfort, but it's a tricky one, I find that quite a very difficult balance to strike between knowing when you do need to just eat a tub of ice cream and watch Netflix, and that's the best thing for you, and when that is actually avoidance, or is actually harming you and it's learning to know yourself, and know when you're actually sliding into avoidance and almost self harm in what you're doing.

Jill: The more that you know about yourself, the more you can tell the difference between those two states.

NANCY VO: For Jill, part of learning to be self-loyal and tell the difference between self-compassion and self-sabotage, meant leaning in to listen to the voice of her inner child. Especially when she’s going through a tough time with her mental health.

Jill: I was walking around this big park near my place. And I just was walking and walking and crying. And listening to music and a song by Lady Gaga kind of came on. And I just felt this part of me, this little child part of me, that was kind of lost through this fog of depression, just speaking to me say, “I want to dance,” because she heard the music, and she wanted to dance. And I looked around and I was like, can't dance. We're in the middle of the park, people walking their dogs, people running, people everywhere. And then I just thought fuck it, and I ran into the middle of this field, or the middle of the park, and just had a silent disco for one. Because like, really, who cares! Like people were walking past and I'm dancing like, but who cares. And that moment of connection to that to really listening to what that little child said and find meaning in it was so powerful. And that's what I go back to again, and again. And again, when I'm really drowning. And I'm really feeling like I can't do this.

NANCY VO: In that moment, Jill listened to the little inner child voice inside her and tapped into a physical way to release her emotions, instead of numbing herself out.

Jill: And sometimes I need to put boundaries in it, because maybe she does want to eat the second time of ice cream. And maybe it's like, actually not what you need darling. And so it's being able to kind of connect with what she wants. And sometimes yes, let's, let's indulge, let's sit down and watch six hours of Netflix. But tomorrow, we're going to put on our shoes, and we're going to go out for a walk and we're going to eat some greens and like it's just having that balance.

Jill: I need to parent her. And when I'm drinking, I don't have the skills.

NANCY VO: Now Jill’s able to tap into what that scared little kid inside of her needs. Physically and emotionally. Because she knows herself, she can differentiate between self-compassion and self-sabotage.

Jill: I was looking at right now on my coffee table a picture of me as a four year old that I keep all my coffee table. And I speak to her and remind to remind me that that little child felt lost and alone. But she's shy. She's not anymore. And I'm here.

Music out

Act III: Nancy does ASK

NANCY VO: What Jill calls her inner child, I might call my inner voice of self-loyalty, my Biggest Fan. And learning to tune into that voice over the noise of the Monger and the BFF’s constant bickering is one of my tried and true techniques for separating self-compassionate actions from self-indulgent ones.

Music

NANCY VO: Last we left off, I was witnessing a battle royale between my Monger and my BFF. All triggered by working on a project that initially, I was excited to get started on.

So as the dust settles, finally, I decide it is time to practice ASK.

I acknowledge my feelings: inferior, uneasy, fear, excited, timid, passionate, hopeful.

I Slow Down and Get into My Body. I put on One Night in Bangkok, one of my favorite 80s tunes that always makes me dance and brings back good memories, and I do a little dance standing in my office.

One Night in Bangkok plays?

I Kindly pull back and see the big picture. With my hand over my heart, I say to myself, "Ok, Sweet pea, we want to write this course, we know a lot about High Functioning Anxiety.

We are passionate about it, and we can help people who are struggling. So let's do this. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. You know this stuff! And you can figure out HOW to organize it later. Let's get the outline done. Let's dive in.

I set the timer for 20 minutes, and I go to work.

Beat

Now I would love to say I sat down and wrote, and the Monger and BFF were silent—but I would be lying. The key to quieting them for me is not letting them get out of control. I rope them in as quickly as possible by practicing ASK, taking regular breaks, and setting timers. And if they get out of control, I take a pause and listen to what I really need, not what’s going to numb me out.

Outro

That’s it for this week! In next week’s episode we’re going to spend some time with the final character in the Happier Approach cast. The voice that really has my back.

My wise, self-loyal Biggest Fan.

That’s next time on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Jill Stark for speaking with us today! You can connect with Jill on Instagram @jillstark_, on Twitter @jillastark, and through her website at https://jillstark.com.au/

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music out

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Episode 160: Successfully Navigating Decision Fatigue, COVID, and the Holidays

In this episode, I talk with Michelle Florendo, Decision Engineer and Coach about making the holiday decision-making process as easy as possible (or at least a little bit easier).

As if navigating the holidays wasn’t already hard enough, 2020 has turned our holiday traditions on their head. 

In my family, we’re making some tough decisions about the holidays, and emotions are running high. We’ve already canceled our traditional Thanksgiving trip to Chicago to visit my aunt, uncle, and cousins—and it looks like we’ll need to reimagine our Christmas as well, which has been pretty much the same my whole life. 

Making decisions this year has been hard. I’m sure you feel it, too. Do we have a holiday celebration with family? Do we travel? Do we stay home and have a virtual get-together? Do we need to change how we do things at all? It’s tough and the decision fatigue is real. 

In a quest to make the holiday decision-making process as easy as possible (or at least a little bit easier), I wanted to talk with Decision Engineer and Coach, Michelle Florendo. 

Michelle specializes in helping people untangle messy decisions in life and work. After studying decision engineering at Stanford University, she spent the past 15 years helping hundreds of professionals use the principles of decision engineering to make decisions with less stress and more clarity.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How we make decisions

• How decision fatigue is a thing more than ever this year and how to deal with it to make life a little easier

• Tips on dealing with all the emotions that come up around COVID and the holidays

• Ways to navigate the constantly changing information we’re getting around COVID

• Why it’s important to honor the feelings that keep coming up and treating them as data

Resources mentioned:

• Michelleflorendo.com

• Book: Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

• Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn

• Follow Michelle on Instagram

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Michelle: I think that the pandemic has definitely produced decision fatigue for a number of different reasons. One, because it's created so many more decisions that we feel like we need to really think through, but also it's taken away some of our. Outlets, like you said that help us build back our capacity.

That help us refuel.

Nancy: Singing “It's the holiday season.” Oh, a little too early. Ah, actually with the disaster that has been 2020, it isn't to early. As if navigating the holidays, wasn't hard enough. This year COVID has turned our holidays on their heads with the recent uptick in COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

This year, we are going to be making some tough decisions about the holidays and emotions are running high. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

I know in our family, we've already canceled our traditional Thanksgiving trip to Chicago to visit my aunt and uncle and cousins. And it looks like we're going to be, re-imagined getting our Christmas as well, which has stayed the same for most of my life. So in a quest to make the holiday decision-making process, as easy as possible, I learned at the talk with the decision engineer and coach Michelle Florenda.

Michelle breaks it down for us. So keep listening to hear how we actually make decisions. How decision fatigue is a thing this year, more than ever, and how to deal with it. The steps for making decisions and tips on dealing with all the emotions that come up around COVID and the holidays, how to deal with the constantly changing information we're getting around COVID and ways to reduce decision fatigue and make life a little easier.

Michelle Florenda is here to talk to us about decision-making. And I think before we started talking, I meant to write it down. You talked about how there was an engineering of efficiency. That just makes my little high functioning anxiety, heart go. Pitter-patter pitter-patter so tell me, Michelle, how did you get involved in The science of decision-making.

Michelle: So it was one of those things that I just stumbled on. Actually, I'm thinking about how far back I should go for this story. I might just start at the beginning. So when I grew up, all I wanted to be was a teacher. To be honest in the first grade, I wanted to be a first grade teacher, second grade.

I wanted to be a second grade teacher. And so on until I had a teacher who was really fantastic, but she heard me say this and she told me it would be a waste of my brain. And then I went home and cried. I think now. Understanding a little bit more about how we don't compensate our teachers enough. I think I know where that sentiment was coming from.

She was a young teacher, but she was excellent, but not getting paid her worth. But I remember at that moment I went home. I cried. I thought, what am I going to do if I'm not going to be a teacher? And I was good at math and science. And so I decided I'm going to be an editor. Yeah again, like back in the day, I didn't know of all the different options.

So I did some research and I was learning about all the different engineering disciplines. And I heard about industrial engineering, which someone told me was the engineering of efficiency, which totally. It made me get really excited because I thought that was really neat and fascinating. And then once I got into school, I studied at Stanford and they had reconfigured their industrial engineering department to merge with a few other departments.

And I found out that one of the options that I could choose to study was decision engine. Which I thought was fascinating. Wow, I can optimize decisions. How come we've never been taught this before. So that's how I landed in the decision making space.

Nancy: This is awesome. Okay. So we're getting ready for Thanksgiving and the holidays and all signs point towards COVID is still here.

It's still here and growing. Yeah. Coming down the pike is decisions about holidays, which is why I wanted you to be here to talk us through how to make a decision about the holidays. But before we get into that, I want to talk about decision fatigue. And I think a lot of us are experiencing that with COVID and 2020 in general, it's just been a really tough year.

But I know decision fatigue happens well beyond. Just this year. So tell me about decision fatigue. What is it, why is it happening?

Michelle: So I find it useful to break down. What's actually happening in our brains because sometimes people will reach out and say, is it just me or is my brain no longer working for some shape or reason?

And it's not just, it's not just them. It's not just you, not just me to

Nancy: That’s good to know just there is good to know.

Michelle: What happens is that so I'm going to draw a little bit on the work of Daniel Kahneman and his book thinking fast and slow. And so one of the key concepts from his book is that we have these two systems of thinking, thinking fast is the intuitive, super fast, sometimes emotional almost reactionary brain or a part of our brain.

Some people call it the lizard brain, but it operates. Quickly. And then there's the thinking slow. This is the it, our prefrontal cortex, our executive function, where we are analyzing things with logic and weighing all of the outcomes. That's our thinking slow part of the brain. He calls them system one system two.

I'll just call them thinking fast, thinking slow. Okay. For shorthand. And the thing is there's a lot of psychological research that's been done that shows. The capacity we have for that slow thinking is finite. So we only have a finite reservoir of energy to use with these slow thinking decisions. And that's why, if you have to do many hours of logical analytical thinking by the end of it, your brain feels a little bit fried.

And so what I seen, especially this year is a few things. So one especially in the midst of the pandemic, there are a lot of decisions that used to be just everyday decisions like, oh, do I go see my parents so that they can see their grandkids? Or do I get on a plane? Do I go to the grocery store?

Especially like really early on all of these normally mundane decisions become a little more high stakes. Because of the possible health implications. And so I'm seeing a lot more people taking those decisions and putting them in the, oh, I must think slope about it. And so now we have more decisions that we are trying to use our slow thinking around.

And then also, because there's still a bit of uncertainty because our human brains don't like. Uncertainty. We think that we, oh we really need to be sure. I need to think even harder about these decisions to make sure I make the right decision. And so what we're seeing is almost like an overload of our slow thinking part of our brain.

And that's where the decision fatigue comes from. If you think about it being almost like a fuel tank, but we're running on it.

Nancy: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And then, because there isn't really any certainty, like certainty cannot be found in the sense of there's so many conflicting messages coming at us and different parts of the country have different experiences with COVID.

It's hard to find the guidance to have certainty. Is that's is that what you're meaning by certainty? Is that upping the ante even more?

Michelle: Yes. When I think about certainty and our need for certainty, there's a couple of different things. One it's harder to come by certainty for all of the reasons that you just mentioned that the data that's out there it differs by geographical location.

Also differs every day, after. Big holidays in the summer, we saw spikes. And the data that was valid two weeks ago may not be the same as the data we have now. So there's this ever-changing dynamic aspect of information that is producing some uncertainty, but also there's the piece around I was actually talking to Barry Schwartz.

Who's the author of the paradox of choice a couple months ago about this. And he said, I think another thing that people don't realize is that. Our tolerance for uncertainty has also diminished over time, not even just this year, but as a society. And so if you think about the way that technology has been able to, give us instant answers, if we can Google things, we don't have to wait or Netflix, we don't have to wait an entire week to figure out what happened after that cliffhanger of an episode.

Technology has actually reduced our tolerance for uncertainty over time as has our societal I guess hunger for certainty. Like I think in, at least in the U S there is a bias towards, you must know, and we must know it's certainty

Nancy: and it must not change. It must stay the course, because if it changes, that means it's uncertain.

Yeah. That's interesting. Because I can Google right away. What's the capital of Florida, rather than having to not know, because I just don't know. Then I'm less comfortable with uncertainty because I get it instantaneously now. Okay.

Michelle: So there's this bias towards knowing and knowing instantaneously has hindered our capacity to just be with the not knowing.

Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. Because something we get really caught up in is a little bit of certainty, but it's more so the right, this is the right way. And I know it's the right way because I can get enough information to feed that I know it's the right way because I'm following what everyone else is doing.

So it's not so much certainty, but it's a form of that. And so what is so hard right now is there is no right way. So everyone has a different opinion. I can talk to five different family members and they all feel very differently about COVID. If it's from, it's not real to, oh my gosh, we shouldn't be even going to the grocery store.

And so finding that level of right is hard right. And taking in the information and being able to figure out what's accurate is hard. Even more so now, because as you said, I hadn't even thought about that. Just the amount of decisions we've had to make using the slow brain and all this stuff we take for granted is gone, childcare and schooling, and it's all freaking out the window. And this has nothing to do with decision-making, but also being able to be in the car, on your drive, home from work and listen to the radio, getting those regular outlets where your brain can just. Not beyond that isn't happening either.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the pandemic has definitely produced decision fatigue for a number of different reasons. One, because it's created so many more decisions that we feel like we need to really think through, but also it's taken away some of our. Outlets, like you said that help us build back our capacity, help us refuel.

Nancy: So here we are right before the holidays, it's coming down. What are we going to do? We've canceled our holiday plans already. And even our plan B is under. Question, how do we start this process of making these really tough decisions about the holidays?

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I remember. I feel like I've had a lot of conversations with people about how is it that you make decisions?

Not only in the pandemic, but in, in general. So I want to start at a very basic level because I think it's very useful for people to think about decisions in this way. And that's every decision. Has three parts. There are three components that this is like the same thing that professor Ron Howard would teach at Stanford.

So every single decision has three parts. One is what are the objectives? What are the things that matter in the outcome? The second component of any decision is what are your options? What are the different courses or paths that you can choose a mountain? And then the third piece of any decision is what information do you have?

On how each of those options might deliver against your objectives. And then also in the information piece is, what information do you not have? Is there anything you can necessarily do with about that? And as people are making decisions, especially about the holidays, it's useful to start actually with what the objectives are.

I think sometimes it can get. Really easy to assume certain objectives that matter just, according to society. And so I think health being able to preserve one's own health and the health of their loved ones tends to be an objective. Not being responsible for spreading the virus also tends to be an objective, but it is also useful to identify what are the other objectives at play because when we only focus on.

Those two things, the health things, we may forget that there are other things that might be impacted by our decision. Earlier on in the pandemic, I was talking to a number of parents about decision-making and on one hand, They realized that, trying to manage the risk of getting COVID, at least for them had a negative impact on other objectives.

They had okay, the decisions around childcare, have negative implications for how they could advance in their career or even just their own mental health or their relationship with their spouse. So it's good to articulate at least what are the things that matter? Even beyond the obvious

Nancy: to be able to do that without self-editing in the sense of being able to say, this is going to hurt my career by doing this.

And that's an objective. And I think a lot of people jump in and be like then you're being selfish and you're all about your career. And they have all this shame and criticism about that. When in reality, that is playing. So let's throw it on the table as an objective. I've talked with my mom multiple times, so she's 79 and in great health, but we've talked about quality of life versus being locked down and how she can manage that because it's hard.

So being able to be honest about what those objectives are, even if they're not socially. Acceptable or sound good, but they're on the table. And I think that is one thing to recognize is how much we do tend to edit ourselves based on what we think other people will think. And this is a time when we need to just be really honest with ourselves and the people that we're making the decision with,

Michelle: Because it's by articulating what the objectives are that you can then. Really start brainstorming what might be some of the viable options that we can help deliver against. And, none of these objectives are necessarily binary. Like it's all, or nothing, usually a spectrum along which like you mentioned quality of life.

And yeah. That happening in our family too. My father-in-law really loves being able to pick his own produce at the grocery store. And at the beginning of the pandemic, we were all delivery all. Let's try to stay out of the public spaces, but in tracking the information and just noticing the impact on his quality of life.

We're re-evaluating okay. Are there ways. Are there certain grocery stores, like open air markets from markets, whatever, where he might be able to do that, but still in a way that seems safe enough for what we're trying to manage.

Nancy: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. How can you brainstorm all the possible options?

Michelle: I think here's where I see a lot of people just start with the obvious but once you are able to pinpoint well, okay, given the options that are in front of us and how we're looking at our various objectives, where are some of our objectives not being met as much as maybe we would.

It's almost like feeling around the edges of this decision problem and then trying to see are there creative things that we can brainstorm like this being able to pick this up,

Nancy: Yeah. That's a great example of it.

Michelle: So exploring additional options should be driven by, what are the objectives that we're still trying to move the needle on.

And again, like when it comes to objectives, it's useful to think about them as a spectrum because. By thinking about them, not in an all or nothing, but as a spectrum, we can also define what is the range within which feels comfortable? I think about it almost like a mixer I'm thinking like audio levels and the mixer.

Yeah. Push up the base the whole time, the trouble, or what does it look like with the different pattern? Being able to see what's in front of you, like the obvious options and how well are they delivering against objectives now, and then seeing where you can push the edges a little bit.

And that's where you can direct your brainstorming.

Nancy: Okay. And then is this something you would recommend? My husband and I do this, and then we take it out to the. Family or we should be doing it as the larger family to begin with.

Michelle: So for decisions that impact a number of different people, or, especially if I'm family decisions, who's going to be feeling strong feelings about things it's useful to identify.

What are the objectives that each person involved has, or at least like the really high priority ones, because then you can also identify with. Overlap. And so when we were making decisions in our family and as I was consulting, some other people would identify, okay, where are people aligned on objectives?

Okay. We don't want to get sick. We don't want to get our loved ones sick. We don't want to be vectors for this disease. Okay. Can we all agree? Yes. Great then that could be used as a foundation for almost negotiating or playing with what are the other things that matter? What are the trade offs that we're willing to make given the things that we have in common?

Okay. And so the objectives piece useful to do for the bigger group, or at least get an understanding. You may not necessarily interview everyone. You can usually just from past conversations, what are the things I've come up and. Yes, it's full to brainstorm options in a smaller group and then bring them to bounce them off of others.

Nancy: Cause then it would just get out of control the brainstorming piece. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then when you move to the third piece about the information. Tell me about that.

Michelle: Yeah. So the information piece is the place where things get sticky, right? For all the reasons we talked about before, around discomfort with uncertainty and things being dynamic.

And so this is where it's useful. Not only to think about what information do I have, but also how might I, de-risk this decision in the face of uncertainty? So I framed that because in full disclosure, I'm a risk averse person. I'm willing to take calculated risks. And that's where this idea of de-risking or at least thinking about ways you can, de-risk a decision come in.

And for example, recognizing that there might be an additional decision. When you have more information. And so like for travel planning, let's say that you're making all of these decisions based on the data that you have now, but you can also establish a trip. And so for example, if the data changes significantly between now, and when you plan to take that trip, how can you build in mechanisms so that you have the opportunity to make a new decision?

If you have very different information, let's say two weeks down the line that would impact that decision for people who fly thinking about. Okay. Yeah. How can I turn this into something that I may not be locked into? Or how can I maintain the opportunity to make a new decision if I do get new data?

Yeah.

Nancy: I love that. That's a great, that takes out some of the pressure that we need to figure this out right now.

Michelle: And what we decide now decides everything forever.

Nancy: Yes. I like the idea of the tripwire. This is what we're doing until this happens. And then we're going to reassess and go to plan B or. Great.

And then do you have B and C already planned or do you go back through the process of the objectives, options information?

Michelle: So I'm thinking specifically for holiday decisions, as opposed to what do you want to do next in your career? My sense is that the objective. Are you pretty consistent or probably stay consistent through this holiday season.

And so you may not need to revisit that for the options piece sometimes who knows new options might arise or someone in the group thought of a new idea. So maybe, and so you don't have to completely rehab. But I think it is useful at least for people who are planners, which

Nancy: raising my hand here Yeah, for sure.

Michelle: There can be a level of comfort in at least exploring if you're going to set a point in time that could be a tripwire. It could establish some comfort in at least thinking through what might be different courses of action. Okay.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. And you may not have a tip for this.

It is emotionally a landmine tips for navigating that.

Michelle: What are we talking about? Emotional landmine for ourselves, or also the emotions that go on everyone.

Nancy: Like a lot of my listeners are people pleasers and they want to make everyone happy. How do you navigate. That you might piss off your uncle by saying we're not coming.

Michelle: Yeah. So there's a couple things that come to mind one.

Okay. I'm laughing because I'm totally having a flashback to when I was planning my wedding and asking friends about their advice in wedding planning. And I just remember one of the best pieces of advice I got was. You're going to piss off everyone you love at least once. So when it happens, just check the box and move on.

Nancy: That is awesome. Oh my gosh. That's so true.

Michelle: At least that's a way of managing expectations because I think it's, we forget that it's impossible to please everyone. And I do think, especially when it comes to. Multifaceted decisions with multiple people involved. There are going to be people who are not completely happy with how things turn out or even the decision that was made.

And so I think there is, like a grain of truth to that piece of advice. It's very likely we're going to piss off everyone. And so when it happens, especially if we're talking about family and over the course of our lifetimes, which brings me to the second thing that comes to mind, and it's the idea of infinite versus finite games.

And so with our family, Oftentimes we're in an infinite game with them where I don't like characterizing it as game, but basically it's, we are going to have multiple interactions over time, often over a long period of time with our family. And so what we do at this one point in time, May not make or break things for eternity, versus if we were only playing one game, this party and everything was on the line at this one point in time, which I find isn't necessarily the case with families because we have such history with them going far back before this point in time.

And we likely are going to have more experiences with them. Yeah. After this point in time. This one piece of tile, just like a quote around things always seem to matter most in the moment when we're experiencing them. And yes, it feels that way. But if people can take a step back and realize in this context that this is one holiday season over how many we've had and how many more we hope to have.

Nancy: Yeah, because I keep reminding myself of that. This is one holiday season, this isn't the end of the world. Even though I know there are people out there that their parents are getting older or relatives, they don't know how many more holiday seasons they're going to have, but then that would go back to the objective.

Of recognizing, okay. One of the objectives is we want to celebrate the holiday with this person because we don't know how much longer they're going to be here. And that's an honest objective. So then we come up with an option that fits the rest of the objectives and that we want to be safe, et cetera, et cetera.

So we got to come up with a different option. Right or that I know I get so caught by the emotions and I don't have set my mom and I don't want to be seen as a wimp by my brother. Like I have all these dynamics, but this system you laid out, even the emotions are playing. It does give a way to objectively move through all this stuff.

Michelle: Because one of the things that I like to talk about is the fact that. Especially as humans. There's no such thing as just a slow thinking. Absence of all emotion, drive of decision for humans, we have emotions just like you said. So when emotions come up, it's useful to observe what is the emotion that is coming up?

Where's it coming from? And what can that tell me about this decision? Because sometimes the emotion is coming up because it's informing us of an objective that matters sometimes just the anxiety over the not knowing maybe it's coming up because oh, The information space, isn't completely clear and likely isn't going to be, but that's where the is coming from.

And so at least I advocate for people leaning into the emotion of it, at least enough to understand how could it be used as data.

Nancy: Ah, I love that, that I'm going to use that one just in general. I think emotions can provide a lot of them.

Michelle: If we're willing to observe with them and in that way, in a way that allows us to treat them as data.

Yeah.

Nancy: That's really helpful because it isn't so much about pulling out the emotion from the decision. It is. Let me welcome the emotion in a way that I'm a neutral observer to it and reading it.

Michelle: I'm based in the bay area. So two or three months into the lockdown or shelter in place that we had here, my mom had a very emotional reaction to the plans.

We were putting forth for our quarantine pod and she had made a remark and it's very teary-eyed around. This is not a way to. And I remember having a really emotional reaction and almost wanting to make a completely different decision because yeah, I care about my mom. I could see that she was really emotional and then I took a step back to ask of myself.

Okay. Given what I'm seeing in my mom what is both her emotion and my emotional reaction. Say about what's happening here. And I realized, oh, okay. Her emotional reaction is coming from a piece around one of the objectives she has and feels very strongly about is not being. And my emotion is coming up because I love my mom.

Yeah. All right. So she has an objective that isn't being met. Are there ways that we can think more creatively again about, can we revisit the options piece to see? Is there a slightly different tweak that we can make to our plans so that her objective is at least a little bit met? I think she was also thinking about this decision as the decision for the rest of time and yes.

Yes. Huh. It's not a way to live for, five, six years. Then we started talking, we were going to revisit the plan every month. So at least we're not trying to chase all the data from a day-to-day basis, but we are still trying to reevaluate as the data and as the situation evolves. And that, that also helped her wrap her head around.

Okay, I can do this for a month. And we'll talk again.

Nancy: And that would be like the trip wire. And so for example, if you have someone in your family who isn't as militant as you might be about the COVID protocols, Then that's the data in making your decision. You're just taking that in to recognize this person isn't going to be as on it.

And so I need to make sure I am aware of that as I'm moving through this. Okay. And that also takes out the emotion and the judgment of that person. Yes. Yeah. But that's just no, this is just data. We're just figuring this out. Okay. That's helpful because everyone has different. Rules and different capacities for what they're willing to do.

It can be overwhelming and trying to make everyone happy. And being able to pull back and recognize what's a feeling what's just information I need to use forward. And then how can we come up with options that can keep all of those in place somehow? Am I on it? Yeah. Okay.

All right. Cause it does just give us a new way of thinking about it and then also just the compassion for ourselves as to why this is so freaking hard.

Michelle Yes, There's a lot of things that are going on. It's like this year has produced a perfect storm of a lot of external influences along with like society and technology and all of these things that have made decision fatigue hit us in a way that is just so significant.

Nancy: So do you have any tips for reducing decision fatigue?

Michelle: Yes. If you think about it, decision fatigue, as I mentioned is a function of our reservoir of energy for these, the slow analytical thinking, being depleted. I talked to a lot of working parents and sometimes their reservoir is even smaller than it usually is just because.

They're not sleeping as much, or they don't have the outlets that they usually do. And so the recommendation to try to expand the capacity side of things is not for working parents because there's only so much that, right? Yes. Yeah. For people who may have the ability to. Put more attention into, what are those outlets that help you rebuild your reservoir, that help you replenish your energy to make these decisions again, like refueling the tank.

But I think a lot of my suggestions lie on the other side of things. Okay. So how is it that you manage the influx of decisions that. Are demanding attention from our slow thinking brain. And so one of the things that I recommend is thinking about how can you just either turn things into a non-decision or get it off?

Okay. And so what I mean by that is can you decide things in advance? Can you create a menu for the month or a few menus, weekly menus that you rotate through so that there are certain decisions that you have to come up, but you don't need to dedicate as much energy because you've decided in advance how you're going to deal with it.

So that's one decided advance another way of getting things off your bucket. Can you delegate, are there other people that you can delegate the little decisions too? And so I think that's also another distinction. There are going to be some decisions that you do want to reserve for your slow thinking brain that you want to use that tank a fuel for.

And then there are some. Don't like, what am I going to eat? What am I going to wear? So there's the, can you just not. Have them be decisions that you need to make, decide in advance or delegate. And then another thing to think about is sequencing. Our reservoir gets depleted over time, or maybe over the course of a day.

And so can you sequence some of these decisions so that you are safe? Your energy for the things that you really do want to use that slow thinking on for the beginning, when you absolutely know that you'll still have fuel in the tank instead of leaving them for when you might be running on fumes.

Nancy: That makes sense.

Michelle: Things that you may need to use your slow thinking brain for. Can you manage how much energy it takes. And so this is where I'm thinking about holidays and deciding what am I going to get whole bunch of my family members. And I can totally anticipate myself in the wee hours of the night after my baby's gone to sleep going down the road.

Oh, should I get this scarf or should it be a hundred percent wool or should it be recycled wool plus polyester? Or should it be wrecked? I plan to time box some of these decisions. What I mean by time boxing is decide in advance how much time. And I am I going to give myself to spend on this particular decision at the end of it?

Good to be done. So that's one way of managing how much time you're spending on these slow thinking decisions. Sometimes when I talk about the time boxing thing, I'm going to spend 30 minutes thinking about this decision by the end, I'm just going to make a decision. Sometimes I get pushback because people want to make the best decision or the right decision.

And there is something that I want to say about that piece because. Oftentimes, we want to make the right decision. But we don't stop to think about what actually makes this decision right? Or good. And this is where sometimes people fall victim to a very common fallacy when it comes to decision quality.

And they think that the quality of the decision is the same as the quality of the outcome. Or in other words, if the outcome of the decision is good, I must've made a good decision, but if the outcome is bad, I must've made a bad decision. Yes. But that's not actually true. Because the outcome is a function, not just of what we decide, but also often of other things that are outside of our control.

And so like really simple example, this upcoming weekend, I looked at a weather report and it's supposed to be no rain or maybe very slight chance of right. And so what if our family decides to go on a hike and let's say fast forward to the weekend and we go on this hike and it does rain. What's that necessarily a bad decision.

Not necessarily, I didn't decide for it to rain, but oftentimes we wear that baggage of that outcome. I must've made a bad decision. And so I say all that to try to remind people that we can only make the best decision we can. Given the information that we have.

Nancy: Ah, thank you for that. That was gold right there.

Oh, it's a great reminder. Like we all know that, but the reminder of that is so great.

Michelle: I was just thinking about the holiday gift thing and wanting to make the best decision and sometimes. And sometimes it's useful to ask one, how would I know if it's really the best decision and also is that incremental difference over what would be good enough really worth the extra time, effort and fatigue, all of these things.

And sometimes. That's the mindset that can help shake us out of wanting to just like optimize, because there often is no. So this is the thing, even though I studied decision engineering, which is supposed to be the discipline of how to make or optimize decisions, the one thing that I've realized when it comes to human decision making is that there's very rarely an optimum.

Decision. And so at the end of the day, sometimes I tell clients the best decision is going to be the one that you are happiest living with

Nancy:. Yes, that is well said. And so on that note, because that was just brilliant. I think this was so helpful and just a really new way of reframing. Stuff. So thank you for coming on and be the guest and helping us through this COVID holiday time.

Michelle: Absolutely. I love talking about decision making and helping untangle messy decisions.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I learned so much from Michelle and she made what feels like an overwhelming process, much more manageable. My takeaways were to be honest with myself and to be clear on my objection. To think outside the box and be creative to honor the feelings that keep coming up and treating them as data.

And most importantly, to practice kindness to myself and to my loved ones

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Episode 153: How the Conventional Happiness Formula Keeps Us Stuck

In this episode, I’m talking with Kim Strobel a happiness and empowerment coach about the conventional happiness formula.

Frequently we will ask ourselves—why am I unhappy?

But the key component is the question underneath the question. 

What is making you unhappy? 

Or better yet, how would you know if you were happy? 

A friend, former guest, and storytelling expert, Hillary Rea, shared that it might come down to asking a more beautiful question—a question that helps you get to the heart of the question to uncover the answer. Often, Hillary uses the phrase—ask a more beautiful question—to prompt her to get to the heart of an issue. 

Throughout my own experiences, I’ve found that the beautiful question is usually underneath the question that’s important and so today’s episode is a study into the question underneath the question concept.

I’m talking with Kim Strobel, a happiness and empowerment coach and the founder of Strobel Education. As a leadership consultant and happiness coach, Kim helps businesses, organizations, and high-achievers prioritize their health and well-being so they can reach new levels in their business and their life. And as a result, businesses and organizations take massive actions and create positive change in every area.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The conventional happiness formula and how it keeps us stuck

• Adding gratitude and affirmations into your life in a helpful way (you know I have some opinions about these 2 concepts so Kim and I break it down for you!)

• How Kim’s panic disorder affected her life, how she overcame it, and what happened when it reared its ugly head again

• How the process of learning to live with her panic disorder helped bring her happiness

Resources mentioned:

• www.KimStrobel.com

• www.StrobelEducation.com

• The She Finds Joy Podcast

• She Finds Joy on Facebook

• Follow Kim on Instagram

• Follow Kim on Twitter

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Kim: What happens is you are so focused and you've tied your happiness to that goal, that you're letting it still, all the happiness that is available to you right now. So even when things are really tough, I tell people, find your happy in the now while also reaching for your big, bold vision.

Nancy:: Ask a more beautiful question.

Recently, a friend and former guests, Hillary Rea shared that idea with me. It's from a David White quote. “Solace is the art of asking the beautiful question of ourselves, of our world or of one another in fiercely difficult and beautiful moments” said, David. From his book Constellations. I like to think of it as the question underneath the question that is important.

And Hillary uses the phrase to ask a more beautiful question to prompt herself, to get to the heart of the issue frequently. We will ask ourselves, why am I unhappy? But the key component is the question underneath the question. What is making you unhappy? Or better. What would you do, if you were happy? Today's podcast episode is a study in the question underneath the question concept,

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. Nancy: Jane Smith.

On today's episode, I'm talking with Kim Strobel, a happiness and empowerment coach and the founder of Strobel Education.

The topic of our conversation and the starting point was the question, what is the conventional happiness formula and how does it keep us stuck? And Kim and I discussed that and then there's a wonderful juicy conversation. But for me, the meat of the interview is the question beneath the question, which came out through our discussion, which is how can Kim continue to be happy when she deals with panic disorder?

How does she live with something so debilitating and surprising when you meet Kim, you will see what I mean and how the process of learning to live is what helped bring her real happiness, Kim and I talk about the conventional happiness formula and how it keeps us stuck adding gratitude and affirmations into your life in a helpful way.

And I have some opinions about these two concepts. So Kim and I break it down for you. Kim's panic disorder and how it affected her life, how she overcame it and what happened when it reared its ugly head.

Nancy:: Kim. I am so excited to have you here today to chat with you.

Kim: Thank you. I'm honored to be here with you.

Nancy:: So we're just going to dive right in. S I was so intrigued when you reached out to me to via email and you were talking about the conventional happiness for me. Such a great phrase and why it keeps us stuck. Tell me more about that

Kim: The traditional formula for happiness, that we've all been fed and has been ingrained in us from previous generations and.

We see it all around us from social media to the way our neighbors are living. But the conventional formula for happiness is basically work really hard in school. Go to college, choose a degree where you make a lot of money. Definitely don't choose teaching because you're not going to make a lot of money (being former teacher) get out into the world, get a job.

Work really hard climb the corporate ladder, get a better job working, even harder, get an even better job, make more money. And then eventually you can have the nice cars and you can have the nice, big, beautiful home. And once you've been able to accomplish all of these things and work your way up the ladder on the other side of that, you have achieved.

You have finally gotten there. And what we now know from Sean Acres course, positive psychology and very vetted research from Harvard university, as well as research from Samuel Luber Misskey and and also Martin Seligman from the University of Pennsylvania is the formula for happiness is broken.

And in fact, It's completely backwards. What we now know is that when you bring your happiness to the forefront, first, it changes every single outcome in your life. So if you want to create more abundance in your life, don't chase the abundance first. Chase your happiness create your happiness, puts your well-being at the forefront first because when you have a mind at positive, you're able to come up with creative solutions to problems you couldn't come up with before or solutions.

When your brain is at positive, you're able to have a different perspective and see other opportunities that before you could not see. And so this whole idea of, Hey, our happiness m y wellbeing needs to be at the forefront first. That is a game changer.

Nancy:: So when you say I like, I love that you're saying my wellbeing and happiness using those words together, because happiness is a loaded term for sure.

What would you say is the definition of happiness in this. Scenario,

Kim: In the broken formula scenario or in both, I think happiness is my wife and I live in this nice, really big home. And we drive really nice vehicles and we both make a lot of money and we are high society folks, so to speak.

And because of all of that I am going to feel this great sense of fulfillment and happiness inside of me. And what we actually know is. Like we want to have, it's important to have big, bold visions for our life. And I would be the first to tell you Nancy:. I live in a big, beautiful home and I love it and I'm super thankful for it.

But I also know that if I lived in a thousand square foot home, My longterm happiness would not be affected by the size of my home. And so if I could just dive into the happiness research, this might be a good time to do that so that we can put these things into perspective..

What we know is that every one of us. We all have, what's called a default happiness level. So maybe my default happiness level is here. And maybe your default happiness level is a little bit higher than mine. So what happens is you and I go out and we buy a new purse or a new pair of shoes, or we get a new car or we purchase a new home or we get a new job.

And our happiness level does elevate, but it elevates for a very short time. What happens is it comes right back to default after a period of time. Yes, I'm walking around with my new Kate spade purse. It just came in the mail. I love it. I'm excited. I'm happy. Two days later, I'm back to default.

Or whatever it might be. Now what's interesting about the brain research and hard to wrap our mind around is that we also know this to be true. Of enduring really terrible things in our life. We know that you can encounter tragedy, loss, grief, disease, divorce, all of these things, and that our happiness level will drop.

But the brain has this kind of uncanny ability to reset itself after a period of time. And I have trouble wrapping my head around that because I'm not going to lie. Something's Nancy: I think could happen to me. And I feel like I would never get my happiness back, but if we, if I pose that question to people who are listening, I'm going to guess that we can all come up.

A handful of people who have had terrible atrocities done to them. And somehow they go on to live this very joyful, meaningful life. And so what we know from the brain research is that most of the time, our brain will return to default after a period of time. So now the question becomes where's our happiness come from where's our default from.

So I want you to picture your happiness as a pie chart. And so what we know is that 50% of your long-term happiness is genetic. It comes from your mom or your dad, or a mixture of both. Sometimes when I tell people this, they completely hang their heads

There is a genetic tendency to this. Like some of us were born into this world or we like lolly gap. The world is all bright and shiny and yeah we get a little stressed sometimes. But for the most part, we just constantly see the good in the world. And then there's others of us who have to work harder at it. Our brain is programmed more towards the negative.

And we work with people. We have friends like this, we have the negative Nellie, so to speak that have to work harder at being positive. And then we have the bright, shiny uniforms that just seem to automatically be able to do it.

Kim: If 50% is genetic.

Let me tell you a shocking statistic of that pie chart. Only about 10% of your long-term happiness comes from your external circumstances. So here's an external circumstance. What kind of car? What kind of home you live in, what kind of money you make? If you're married, single, divorced, or widowed.

If you have kids, if you don't have kids, if you need to lose 20 pounds or you need to lose 60 pounds, those are all external circumstances, but we let those external circumstances eat up way more of that pie than 10%. But the brain research will tell you the research is very strong. That those things only account for about 10%, but we have a mistaken belief we say to ourselves, when I can make this kind of money, I'll finally be happy when I can lose the 20 pounds.

I’ll finally be happy when I can find a partner that truly loves me all. Be happy. What's happening is your letting those external circumstances eat up way more of the pie and that's on you. My friend. And that's the hardcore truth of it. I know I do it sometimes. There's something that happens and three weeks later I'm still ruminating on it. And that's me saying, I'm letting this steal way more than 10% of the pie and it's time for me to stop letting it steal more than 10% of the pie. Now I want to make a clarification, Nancy:, because yeah. If your spouse, all of a sudden leaves you, you are going to be unhappy. It, it might take you six months or a year or two years, but the problem is it four and five and six years later, you're still unhappy because your husband left you.

That's on you, my friend, because you have you have to do the work right. And so I think that's, when we're thinking about the conventional formula, we put all of our eggs over here saying if I can achieve this, I can accomplish this. If I can simply buy this bigger home, it will bring my family so much more happiness.

And. I know this research I've lived here for 20 years and I still think that having the lake house is going to bring me more happiness.

Nancy:: It might bring you more joy.

Kim: Yeah! I can justify it to know end. And my husband, he's always really good. And he's Kim, you preach this happiness research to people, but then you tell me why you have 78 pairs of shoes in our class. (laughter)

I am anomaly to the research (Laughter) those shoes bring me more than 10% happiness,

Nancy:: but the cool thing about it, that it, is the idea that there's a lot of cool things about that research, but the cool thing about it is a, the back to the returning to default, I think that There to me, it takes off some of the pressure that that even when, and I can attest that, like after my dad died and I was like, I can't imagine a life without him in it.

And it was completely devastating to me. And I was just thinking this the other day as they always say, you never. Stop grieving, but it just, takes on a different form. And it has, like we have new memories with we're dad isn't there and, we've returned to somewhat of that homeostasis spot you were talking about.

And I think that sometimes we try to hold on so tight to the happiness that I need to be happy all the time, or I need to be. Returning to this certain spot that may not even be our default.. And then if it and we may be going through something traumatic where we just can't attain that happiness and that's okay.

Yeah.

Kim: I feel like we have created a culture where we have misconstrued this idea of positivity and yeah. It's like a culture of positivity. So we tell people. If they complain where like now listen, just focus on the positive, just focus on your blessings. Just be positive. And that does not work because what we're saying is, Hey, you're not allowed to have any negative feelings, just turn it off and switch to positive things.

And let me just tell you that does not work. We have to feel the negative feelings, but we also have to crawl out of the gutter a lot quicker if we're still there. Seven, seven days later. I want to work towards crawling out of the gutter, but like we have to be allowed to have these feelings. My mom who loves me dearly, I was having a stressful moment a few months ago and I was getting riled up and she goes, she said, wow, you are the happiness coach.

Mary Jo does not mean I'm not allowed to have negative feelings. Like sunshine, unicorns and butterflies. I'm a practitioner of happiness.

Nancy:: Yes. Yeah. That's an impossible standard that you're going to be happy all the time, which is, that's what I felt when you were explaining the defaults like, oh, some of this is just how I'm wired.

Yeah.

Kim: There are things we can do to change that. And we'll talk about that, but not beating ourselves up so much. The other thing that plays into this is this term called hedonic adaptation. And the brain is this very complex. Part of our body that comes from archaic times and the brain has the ability to adapt quickly to new circumstances in order to protect us and keep us out of danger.

That's why, back in the caveman days, our brains we're able to adapt quickly to harsh conditions so that we could endure that while we still have hedonic adaptation that goes on today. So for example, if it's 17 degrees outside and you're freezing, freezing, and you walk in, you know how good the fire feels at first. You will sit by the fireplace and it's so good. And it's so warm. And then after three minutes, you're like, okay, I'm done with it. That's hedonic adaptation. It's the same reason that people can walk in your house and they go, do you smell that? And you're like, I don't smell it hedonic adaptation.

So hedonic adaptation plays itself out in you get the new home and it feels really good for a few months. And then you get used to. And then you need an even bigger home to be happier, or you need to make more money to be happier. I'll be the first to tell you. I love beautiful things. I love my big, beautiful home.

I pull in the driveway and I have a lot of gratitude. So that's one of the ways that I keep it from getting stagnant is I'm constantly appreciating the flexibility and the freedom. And I have nothing against people acquiring wealth. I am a woman who's working to acquire wealth, but not because I think the big house brings me longterm happiness, but because of the other things that it can do for me, like freedom and flexibility, and to support causes that are endearing to my heart.

And so I don't want your audience to think, like we shouldn't want money or we shouldn't buy the big home. That's not it at all. Just don't count on those things to be super fulfilling.

Nancy:: And it's the same reason for like why when you go on vacation and you're like sitting there and, and then the fifth day of sitting there, you don't respond to it.

You're just like, ah, here we are by the ocean. And the first day you get there, you're like, this is amazing. I'm going to be here all the time, and then we, no matter how much you try to soak it in you can't because of the hedonic adaptation.

Kim: Yeah. And so we have to stop chasing the wrong things that are actually.

Taking so much of our happiness wellbeing and fulfillment away from us because we have attached happiness to this desired outcome. And I'm going to talk to you about that in a minute, but I think before I do that, I better explain the other 40% of the right.

Nancy:: Yes. Before you do that, though, I wanted to give an example of that.

That came up for me years ago before I was, I got married later. So I was in my late thirties when I got married and for much of mine. Late twenties, early thirties. It was, my mantra was if only I could find someone, if only I could find someone, everything will be happy and anything that went wrong, I blamed it on that.

No matter what was wrong, if I was overweight, if I was feeling crappy, it was just because I didn't have a partner. So I find my amazing husband. We get married we're in our first year of marriage and. I'm driving somewhere and something comes up where I'm not feeling happy and I'm, my monger steps in to beat me up.

And I thought if only I had a spouse and I was like, no, you have that is no longer the excuse anymore that is out the window. And it just really was amazing to me to see how we get these messages that we just keep on repeating. Even when they're not true anymore. And it was holding me back, I have said so many times.

I wish I could go back to that 30 year old and just say, dude, it'll be fine. Stop worrying about it.

Kim: Yeah, no, because you were letting It still the happiness that was available to you right now in the now. So we're going to go ahead and go there because we'll have to come back to the pie chart, because what you're talking about is I always tell people there's two things that, that you need, want to have big, bold dreams. I want to serve a hundred coaching clients next year, and I want my husband and I to buy a lake home. And I want to have an amazing African experience with my son on a trip. I have all of these visions and goals, but what happens is when you tie your happiness to the achievement of that goal, we play the.

If I find a partner, I'll be happy. That's what you were doing, if I lose 30 pounds, I'll be happy. If I can get this breast in, whatever, I'll be happy if I can get these wrinkles taken care of, I'll be happy. So what happens is you are so focused and you've tied your happiness to that goal, that you're letting it still, all the happiness that is available to you right now.

So even when things are really tough, I tell people. Find your happy in the now while also reaching for your big, bold vision. And sometimes I have to look around and go, wow. The only thing I can come up with right now is I'm happy. I took a breath and I'm happy the grass is green, so be real careful. And I do this too, but be careful of tying your happiness level to the outcome of a goal that you have.

Nancy:: As you said, we've been trained to do that. That's just like an unconscious thing that we get stuck in and really trying to build awareness of that, to recognize.

I'm still going to be me when I'm there.

Kim: Yeah. Hedonic adaptation plays out there. Like personally for me, I was like, oh, when I can finally charge $5,000 for my one hour keynote, I will know I have arrived now the 5,000 gain. And then next year it was like, Ooh, now I need 6,000, 8,000 when I, now I'm working on it.

And so it's again, Understanding that once you do reach your goal, you're just going to create another goal. And you're going to say now I need this to be happy. So just understanding that, but when we're looking at the pie chart and 50% is genetics of your long-term happiness, 10% is your external circumstances.

That leaves 40% of the pie left. And what I love Nancy: is that every human being, regardless of their genetics, regardless of their external circumstances, we all have the ability to increase our happiness levels by up to 40%. So who doesn't want to do that? Exactly. So this would be a whole training day for me to teach you all of these.

I want your audience to walk away with one of the top five ways they can increase their baseline happiness. Okay. So one of the top ways, and it's a very simple practice. It takes two minutes a day, and I promise you, it is a game changer and it's simply called gratitude.

Here's what we know. So I'm going to go back to the human brain in a minute. The brain has what's called the reptilian part of the brain. And the reptilian part of the brain is the part of the brain that was available back in the caveman days. And so the reptilian part of the brain's function was to constantly scan it's environment.

For everything negative in order to protect itself so that people in the archaic age had to scan for weather patterns and dark clouds and clans coming in, who might murder them and the food shortage and they have to pay attention to danger all of the time. And that's what kept them safe.

The issue is that in to days, age in 2020, We still have the reptilian part of the brain, even though we don't need it in that capacity. So the research says that the average human being has 70,000 thoughts a day. Wow. And the reason

Nancy:: I can believe that I'm like, that might be a little low. (laughter)

Kim: If you are really stressed you have 120,000 or so

Wow. Yeah. So we also know that the average human being for them, 80% of their thoughts are negative. So that if we take the 70,000, what we're saying is that most of them. If we're the average human being, most of us are having 56,000 negative thoughts in one day. And if you're like, oh, not me. Let me tell you a sister friend, let me take you back to this morning when your alarm went off.

The first thing you said is I didn't get enough sleep. And then you browsed to yourself about how bad your back hurt. And then you got up out of bed and you said, oh my gosh, I don't want to go to work to get today. And then you walk to the bathroom and your knees were hurting. And then you looked in the mirror and you had a fever blister, and then you put your pants on and thought how your belly was like, this happens. This is natural. It is the reptilian part of the brain. So what we know we have to do is we have to retrain the brain. And gratitude is one of the top ways you can do that. And you only need to write down three different things every day that you are thankful for 21 days.

And what we know happens is you have, what's called these neural feedback loops in your brain. So they're like roads and you have hundreds and thousands of roads running through your brain. These are thought processes. You had a road Nancy: that said I'm not happy because I don't have a spouse. And you have that road so deeply ingrained that it even popped up when you did have a spouse.

And so whatever road is traveled the most is the one that gets the deepest ruts in your brain. And so in order to create a new road, if we begin a gratitude practice, and that means you actually physically write down three things every day, that you're thankful for. And after 21 days, you actually begin to create a new neural feedback loop in your brain.

And so of course we want you to continue this practice above and beyond the 21 days, but that's how long it takes to get the new loop running. And what happens is the lens through which you view the world begins to change because now all of a sudden, every thing that is right with the world is starting to pop out more.

When I'm taking a run and a beautiful leaf is falling from a tree. I'm noticing it now where, before I didn't and these don't have to be profound gratitudes, they don't have to be big. And we actually, if your audience wants that, I think I did. I sent you the gratitude tracker.

So I actually have a product. Learning and gratitude practices hard for people at first. And I have a little freebie download if you want it. That actually helps them start to think about where they can look for gratitude in their life. So it could be in nature, it could be within their family.

And then we have a 21 day gratitude tracker so that they can begin to write their three things down every single day. So if you think your audience would benefit from that

Nancy:: we'll stick that in the show notes, for sure. Okay. So as people who have listened to my listeners know I have some I always have some caveats when it comes to gratitude because.

I feel like sometimes we, and I'm sure you do too. So I'm interested on your take on this. I'm sometimes we can, and I've been guilty of this as well. And I know my clients are of switching gratitude to positive thinking. And they use it as a way to ignore the negatives in their life. So I want you to talk on that a little bit because people have heard me talk about, I want to hear your take on that.

Kim: I gut check everything. Like I'm somebody who feels how things feel in my body. And so I actually know what you're talking about. So I don't do that normally, but I will say there's been a time or two that I have found myself writing something that I wish was true. Okay. But there's like a cognitive dissonance in me when I do that, because it's actually not a feeling it's not a good feeling of lacking.

Or of wishing it was like that. And so it's really going back to your integrity and saying, Hey, I have to write things that feel true to me. Now, if we want to write affirmations, that's a whole totally different thing. We can talk on that at some point too, cause I'm really a big believer in those, but these need to be things that spark joy right now in your heart.

And they need to feel true and genuine. It can be really small things. I have roses blooming outside my window. My house cleaner came today and cleaned the floor. I got to work outside on my deck today. My dogs were playing my fingers in there fur. We don't have to come up with big, positive, or like big things.

Things need to be true of what our brain actually sees views feels and understands.

Nancy:: Yes. Thank you. I love that. I love that because I always talk about the specificity and the and the truth, the integrity piece. I, I don't know. That's such a powerful thing, because I did a presentation once where I talked about gratitude and how we, and my message of sometimes if we're we can bastardize it.

And and a woman came up to me and she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she was practicing gratitude. So she just kept saying, at least I don't have this. And so many people have it worse than me and I should be grateful. And she started with tears in her eyes was saying, this is the first time I've really.

It faced the breast cancer and that's where gratitude we can. It pulls us. It can pull us into this wishful thinking, or I should be, we use it as a way to beat ourselves up rather than the beautiful way you're talking about it. The specificity and the retraining of the brain and

Kim: like what you were teaching, which is you're allowed to feel your feelings. Yeah. And that's exactly around call this. We do this crazy thing called comparative suffering, and we say I'm not allowed to feel bad or sad about this thing here, because it's small compared to this. So I'm not allowed to have my feelings. Yeah.

Yeah. So we have to stop doing that. Like pain is pain. Suffering is suffering hard as hard and you, and I don't have to compare them to be allowed to feel them. Huh.

Nancy:: And so that's where I think what you're speaking of is the process of mindfully looking at your life and reprogramming those neural pathways and being able to see a new perspective in how your life is going, as opposed to sometimes gratitude is taught.

And this is what I rail against the idea of, if you're having a negative thought, be grateful. You can always find something to be grateful about. So find something to be grateful about, to pull yourself out of that negative thought. Instead of being both can be true. I can be, you can be super mad at your husband right now and angry about something and enjoying the beautiful flowers.

Kim: Yeah. Yeah, you're making me laugh because sometimes I'm a little bit like squirrel off of that movie up and made me laugh because I'm thinking about my affirmations and affirmations are very different than gratitude. So like, when I am frustrated with my husband, I am not going to be like, I am so thankful for my super caring husband yelling like that.

Like one of my affirmations and I kind of giggle, like one of my affirmations that I write every day is I am an exceptional wife, too. But even then, if I'm like ticked at him, i, out of integrity have to write in parentheses, even though this is going to be really hard today (laughter)

Nancy:: I love that. I love that. Yes. I think that is because I do think affirmations can sometimes pull us out of integrity.

Kim: I totally agree.

Nancy:: So talk to me about affirmations. I have I haven't, I want to hear it because you love them. I have a negative response to affirmations for that reason that you just said.

So tell me, tell us about affirmations because you may change my mind.

Kim: No I really I teach the law of attraction. I in my coaching program and I teach that whatever you focus on grows and that you have the ability to streamline your thoughts and reach a certain vibrational level where you begin attracting.

Other things that are of the same vibrational level. So for example I always tell people before I launched my business, I told myself three years before I want to become a motivational speaker and I had never spoken on a stage. I was certainly not a motivational speaker, but for every run that I took for 30 years, or for three years, I ran 30 miles a week.

I. Saw myself on the stage. I saw the people in the crowd. I saw the change happening. I saw them getting results. I saw them needing to hear my message. I saw me being of service. And I always tell people I saw and felt the vision of it. And because of that, I created an inner belief. In myself that this would happen.

And within one year of launching my business, I became a nationally recognized speaker. So what I know Nancy: is that our thoughts create our beliefs about ourselves. So if I'm constantly having thoughts of and I'm going to give you guys an example of this, so your thoughts create your beliefs, create your action.

Your actions create your habits and your habits create your reality. So for example, I had, I'm a runner. I run all these miles, like 35 miles a week. I bike 30 miles a week. I do all of this stuff, but like I am the girl who ate 4 hostess cupcakes. Every single night at 10:00 PM. From the time I was 20, till two years ago, 44.

So like I have had this inner belief that I am never going to be able to eat healthy. All of my friends can eat healthy. All of my friends had some kind of stupid app and they journaled and they kept their food calories. I downloaded the app and within two hours and hit my limit. So I deleted that all something is wrong with you.

Everybody else can do this. Kim is a 44 year old woman who still eats tons of sugar every day. I am flawed. I am broken, I can't do this. I have no willpower. So the way that played out is that became an inner belief. That was an inner belief that Kim simply did not have what it took. And so my thoughts created my belief and my belief created my actions, which meant every night at 10 o'clock.

I would go get my hostess cupcakes out and pour my milk. Yeah, that was a habit. My body mind was trained to do that, to go do that. And it created the reality, which is Kim is still not a healthy eater. She's still, and so what I had to do was first of all, I had to quit beating myself up so much, that I couldn't lie to myself. So I couldn't go around being like. Kim's a healthy eater. I'm a healthy eater. I'm a healthy eater. I couldn't write an affirmation. That was like, I'm a healthy eater. I'm a health cause. That's right.

Nancy:: And that is where many of them go wrong. Yes. Yeah. That has been great clarification

Kim: because they don't really believe it.

They don't because it's a total lie. So like I couldn't write in my affirmation journal every day. I am a healthy eater. Cause I'm like bullshit right here. I added one teeny tiny word. I'm not a healthy eater yet, but I'm working on it. So like my affirmations, what I know is that the more you say something to yourself, And the more you can envision it.

And the more you can attach emotion and feel that inner shift happening, then you have the ability to really create miracles in your life. So I'm not going to lie. One of my affirmations right now is I am a New York times best selling author, and that's a big goal i. And I have major stuckness around it because every time I go to write my book, I scare myself right out of it.

But there is something even deeper inside of me that does feel like this is book is supposed to come to fruition. And so I, I have 12 affirmations that I write every single day and I write the same ones over and I don't just write them, but I see them on my vision board. I envision them on my run.

When I am in an argument with my husband over something and I wrote, I am an exceptional wife today, it does sometimes make me think, how can I show up for him? Exceptional. Even though he seems being a shit right. Or whatever. My husband is an amazing man. He really is. Pretend like he's not, but he is pretty exceptional.

Nancy:: So so take the New York times one, for example, does that. Limit you in some ways. And this is a pure curiosity question, because does that limit you from doing it? Because until you, till you get to the point where it's a New York times, then you're not going to take the steps to do it. So walk me through that.

Kim: I guess for me, I, it, I don't have to be like, I would my biggest goal is to be a New York times. Best-selling author, but honestly, I just want to write my book and get my ideas out there. But my biggest vision that I hold for that, because I guess I believe in gaudy goals so if I fail, I'm going to fell a lot higher than I would without the gaudy goal.

That being said, your affirmation still needs to, if you somewhat need to believe in it, you have to have that resonance of, I don't know how it's going to happen. I don't have to work out all of the details. I just have to train my thoughts, action, effort and energy towards this goal, but also not get so tied up on it that I can't surrender some of it.

Nancy:: Right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, but you can vision that. The difference is you can envision the New York times thing and that feels doable. It feels doable

Kim: . And it doesn't feel like a game changer if I never did.. I'm not going to be less happy if I don't achieve that, that I'm reaching for it because that idea and that dream is birthed in my soul in some form or fashion.

Nancy:: And that's in knowing yourself and knowing that integrity to be able to pull that forth and just cause that goal to me, I like that's I should, if I want to write a book, it needs to be a New York times bestseller. I need to aim high. What you're saying is no, I really. Want this this is important to me.

Kim: Right. And again, it can manifest in different ways. I just, it feels good for me to see it that way. It feels good for me to look on my vision board and see like a book that I put up there. And then the little New York times bestselling author, like I, for whatever reason, feel like what I have to teach and say needs to be bad.

Yeah. Got it. This idea of oh, I'm going to ride on my ceiling. I will make $10 million right here. It's okay. That's like crazy shit, right?

Nancy:: Yes. Yeah. It's way more nuanced. And it also then is, as I'm sure in, you would teach is then you're taking action. Towards doing that.

It's not just throwing it up there and thinking about it on your run, but

Kim: I'm going to bring up my mom, Mary Jo, again, she was like, Kim, you've been using vision boards for 20 years and they work, I see them working like, can you teach me how to make a vision board? So Mary Jo and I sat down and she made a vision board and three months later.

Stepped into the house and said none of that's working, Kim, none of those things are coming true. And I'm like, really? So what have you been doing? Action-wise to work, like manifest, like you cannot just have a desire. You have to have action that backs up your desire. So I'm at the slap a pretty picture on a vision board or a pretty little quote and say, oh, I'm just slap it up there.

And it's magically going to happen. Yeah. There's intention. There's action. There's dream building, all of this stuff goes in to the manifestation of that particular bowl or level of achievement or core desired feeling that you want to feel. I want to write that book because I feel like I have.

Stories to tell that people need to hear. So they don't feel so alone. And you can remember Nancy:, I'm the girl who struggled for years from panic disorder, right? Young adult couldn't walk to my mailbox, couldn't drive my car to Walmart. Couldn't walk into Walmart. Heck I had a relapse two years ago and I went back to some of that, but I'm also the bad-ass that steps on a stage with 2000 people.

And I'm allowed to be both of those.

Nancy:: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I forgot about the panic because where everything, it's not just the one or the other,

Kim: I think, for your listeners to be listening to me and this is what happens to me when I step on a stage and I'm in the $500 dress and I'm in the Hills and the makeup, and I've got this contagious energy for life.

And I can just see the people's faces. They're thinking. This woman has it together. And I haven't feel like your listeners could be thinking like this woman is a total.. This woman, two years ago had the worst relapse in 20 years of panic disorder and struggled to leave her house again.

And so understanding that we can have. Both sides that we don't have to beat ourselves up to. I can be, to be honest, I am both. I am Kim who struggles sometimes and has some issues that other people don't have. And I am Kim, who is this, motivational speaker who has this amazing life. But I also have shitty things in my life too.

It's just important for people to hear that. Cause they can hear the voice behind the microphone and think this woman must have it all together.

Nancy:: totally. And I appreciate that's so true because I think that I, everything you're talking about, I think we really want everything to be easy and simple.

And it's, I'm just going to write, I'm going to do my vision board. I'm going to pull it up out there on the wall and I'm going to do my gratitude practice. Thing's going to be great and forget about the integrity piece. We forget about checking in with the self loyalty and the self-love. And does this fit with me?

Is this serve me moving forward and how am I going to go after this with little tiny baby steps? It's not like someone's going to call you tomorrow. They may, we never know, but they're going to call you tomorrow and be like, Hey, I'm a publisher. Let's do your big. Vision.

Kim: I always feel like I have to justify, like why I'm a happiness coach, because some people do they think oh, she must be full of sunshine, glitter and unicorns.

And I'm like, no, you know why I'm a happiness coach because I suffered greatly for years in my life. I went through extreme trauma and darkness and out of all of that, I birthed the happiness coach. She, as a result, From the trauma that I went through and how I now want to help others not have to endure the darkness for as long as I did.

Nancy:: So I know this is probably a whole other episode, but I just, if you can give, this is going to be hard question. How did you after the relapse with the panic disorder, how did regroup?

Kim: Oh my goodness. So to go back, like I started, I was always an anxious little girl. And then like in high school I started having.

Really traumatic episodes. And we didn't know what they were. I would feel like I was going to faint. I would have feelings of unreality. I had disassociated I didn't know who I was, but I did know who I was. My body trembled. I was sweating, shaking. And so for about seven years, this went undiagnosed because back in the eighties, we didn't know what anxiety disorders were.

And so I was having I had full blown panic disorder with a war phobia that didn't get diagnosed until. I want to say 23 or 24 years old. Wow. So I finally get a diagnosis. I get cognitive behavioral therapy from a therapist. I get on Zoloft, which I will tell you. I still take today and my life got a lot easier and I dove into the self-help world and I started like creating my life from the inside out.

And let me tell you. I am a worker bee when it comes to my life and personal growth, like I will work really hard and I will do the hard stuff to re-emerge as a better version of myself, but even in my thirties. And I've always two steps forward and one and a half steps back, here I'm feeling funny again.

Or, having some episodes they're not huge, but they're significant enough to where I'm concerned. But in 2018 when I was creating, how funny is this? So I, I run Strobel education, which is my education consulting business. And then I run kimstrobel.com, which is my happiness coaching business.

And I was creating my first online coaching program for women in the fall of 2018. And I was running struggle, ed full-time as well. And I had the worst panic attack driving home an hour away. It was the worst attack I've had in 20, 25 years.. That, that set off a chain of events where I just got worse.

I all of a sudden didn't want to go anywhere by myself. I didn't want to go drive five minutes. I didn't want my husband to leave the house. And let me just tell you, I. was mad. I was like, you know what? That lived through years where every five minutes of my day was pure hell, because I felt so bad and incompetent and I couldn't function adults.

And why would you possibly make me endure this? Because I now use my tragedy to help others. I'm doing good work with my mission. And what I did is I went right back to cognitive behavioral therapy. I ordered a bunch of books. I started listening to Dr. Claire Weekes, who had these great videos on anxiety.

I ordered that book that I had told you about, which is rewire the anxious brain. And I literally had to reeducate myself and begin to use all of my tools again. Now I wasn't down for seven years. Like I was the first time I was down for a couple of months still functioning, but it was hard. And I came out of it a lot quicker because I know what this is.

And I just had to revisit and do the work. The other thing that I think has come out of this is I have despised. The part of Kim that has this struggle. I hate her. She is weak. She has derailed my life more times than I can count. And so the way that I have dealt with her over the last probably 15 years is by being this overly ambitious, overly driven achiever personality.

Because that way I could squash that weak part of Kim and keep her in her place. So when I started to come through this relapse, I thought to myself, what is the new level of healing or learning that needed to take place? And what really emerged for me was. I need to practice as you use the term self loyalty, I need to practice self loyalty self-love and self-compassion for all parts of Kim that I don't have to push this struggle a way that it is part of who I am.

And so when I get ready to walk on a stage, now I tell myself, yeah, I'm taking the big, bold, brave Kim up to that stage, but also comes the Kim that sometimes struggles. And one of my affirmations is actually, I am honoring my fierceness while also loving and accepting my vulnerability. Because I have not been good to those parts of Kim who, even though she struggles, she deserves love and kindness and patience and all of those things.

And I don't have to push her way.

Nancy:: Ah, Kim, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that story, because I think we can all relate to that even with maybe, not the level of panic disorder, but just, I wrote down the quote, I wanted to squash her and keep her in her place. And that is, that's what we do to ourselves.

Nancy:: That's just brutal. And yet I can relate to that idea of, any flaw I have. I want to squash it and move past it and get over it. And when we can befriend it and bring it in. Ah so I don't know that it's easier, but there's less struggle.

Kim: There's less struggle and you're allowed to cry.

She deserves space.

Nancy:: Yes. Yes.

Kim: Yeah. Whatever you resist persists. And so she is a big part of who I am now. Listen, I hope she keeps herself in check for the next few years. (laughter)

Nancy:: We got big goals. We got to go after,

but I do think that I love them. I love your message. That you're that it's the big, bold goal. And this self acceptance, self love piece. Like we don't see that often in this world of self-help and personal development and coaching and all that stuff, but those are working together, usually one or the other.

It's the warm, fuzzy self-love person and the big, bold goal person. Binding them, I think is truly where the magic is. Yeah.

Kim: I'm working on it girlfriend, but

Nancy:: It's a amazing message. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability in sharing that and sharing the happiness formula and. And helping us feel less out of control with this default happiness thing.

Kim: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I think we just have to embrace the shit show that we are.

Nancy:: I think there's so much power in that, that, that needs to be a podcast.

Kim: I was thinking, I don't know if I've named my Facebook, I have a free Facebook group for women.

Called Finds Joy, which is the name of my podcast. And I was thinking the other day, because somebody was telling me about this new co this little committee of friends that meet every other day, they're called the itty bitty shitty committee. And I'm like, they meet me for just 15 minutes to just process and get some of those.

, feelings out. And I was like, wouldn't that be a great name for a Facebook group or a puff?

Nancy:: Yeah, that would be, that'd be awesome. beause that's where we need that, that raw honesty of here's the shit show. And here's the other cool stuff is we need more of that. Nah, Kim, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and chat with us.

And I am, we're going to put the gratitude work in the show notes. I'm also going to link to the rewire, the anxious brain, in the show notes, because that I bought the book and it's really powerful and I think it will help. You guys think about anxiety in a different way than we've been taught?

Kim: Definitely like my social links, if they want to join the Facebook group for free, where I show up and do mini little happiness trainings and we just do real talk in there. And then I'll send you like my Instagram handle, which is Kim struggle, joy. So you can have some of those, if they wish to embrace the messiness of who they are, but actually, we're all just one daring day at a time we're trying to do better.

And so we have to just be who we are while also. Acknowledging that sometimes life is hard.

Nancy:: Exactly. What's your website?

Kim: so it's Kim strobel.com and then if they happen to be a school teacher, I have struggle education.com.

Nancy:: Awesome. Great. Just in case, people are like listening.

Yeah, they're listening to it in the kitchen while they're cooking dinner and they don't have time to go to the show notes. So I feel that people okay. Thank you, Kim. It was great chatting with you.

Kim: You're so welcome. I appreciate you having me on your show.

Nancy:: This interview really showed me the power of the question underneath the question.

We spend so much time and energy answering the surface questions. When the insight and power comes from asking a better question, this better question concept also gets us out of that black and white thinking that many of our questions put us in. And many of us have strong opinions about gratitude and affirmations.

Some might even argue they can be a bit blackened. But through our conversation and asking a deeper question, I was able to add a little gray to my black and white thinking this week. I challenge you to ask yourself a better question. When you find yourself spinning on one of your standard questions, dig a little deeper.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is. 

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

Episode 148: The Adventure of Fully Showing Up As A Human Being

In today’s episode, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency as people with High Functioning Anxiety is to do two things: 1) give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman, and 2) continually look for that easy fix.

Go big or go home. 

Dream big! 

Do big things.

That’s what all the self-help gurus and Pinterest tell us to do. But is it really the answer? 

We can all think of a time where we thought that going big—moving somewhere new, going after that new career, or buying an awesome house or car—would be the solution to all of our problems. 

Yet more often than not, we find that those big moves aren’t the answer to our inner happiness nor our problems. I’ve found in my own experience as well as working with clients that doing the inner work and facing our humanness is what we need to do first.

That’s where the true big adventure lies.

All this month, I’ve been talking about Being Human. I spoke with Tara McMullin in Episode 145 about being human in your business and with Sarah Kathleen Peck in Episode 147 about getting unstuck and out of your own way. 

In today’s episode, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency as people with High Functioning Anxiety is to do two things: 1) give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman, and 2) continually look for that easy fix.  

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our Monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings

• 3 ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman

• Why self-loyalty is the ultimate act of being human

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Years ago I was a career coach. I helped people figure out the work that would make their heart sing. That was my tagline. Find the work that makes your heart sing. Sounds wonderful. Doesn't it? I had a series of assessments and operative, certain number of sessions where I walked clients through. How to find that work and frequently we would land on something that clients wanted to explore.

Then I set them forth into the world to explore this new career and all the possible ways to achieve it. Inevitably three to six months later, I would hear from some of my clients saying, Hey, you know, can we go back and do that assessment part again? Because I loved learning about myself and taking the assessments, but I don't know if we landed on the right career.

It didn't take me long to realize there was something wrong with that's my approach. I realized by promising that I was going to help people find the work that makes their heart sing. I was setting them up to fail. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. By promising to help clients find the work that makes their heart sing. I was sending you the message that it was an instantaneous process, five short sessions, and your life can be magically changed. All your self doubt, fear, insecurities, poof. They will all be gone. And all you need to do is find that perfect match.

Sounds amazing, but that's not how it works. That's not how being human works. Nothing worthwhile is magical instantaneous or. All this month, we've been talking about being human. We've talked with Tara McMullin about being human in your business. The quest to be superhuman and getting unstuck with Sara, Kathleen Peck.

Today, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency, as people with high functioning anxiety is to do one of two things. One just give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman. Like I talked about in episode 1 46, or to continually look for that easy fix, we convince ourselves that there is a magical holy grail.

If only we were better people or had more time or would finally get our crap together, we could find that next big thing, discover our zone of genius and that would make everything right. To illustrate this idea. I want to share a story of a former client who came into my office sharing about the big changes she wanted to make.

She said to me, I want my life to be one of those Pinterest quotes, you know, live your big dreams, go big or go home. I feel like life is passing me by and I want to do something big with my life. I want to chase my big dreams, move to Paris and be a fashion designer. I need to shift it. For my client going big was how she was going to find the work that made her heart sing.

In reality, going big was something she was never going to do because it was just too scary. And as long as she held herself to the standard go big or go home, she was always going to be home feeling miserable and stuff. As we talked, she shared that a major regret was not finishing her degree. She was in a dead end relationship and she felt left behind by her friends who were getting married and having kids.

She was feeling lost. And when she looked online for answers, the answer was go big. The world of self-help. Full of messages about going big and dreaming big. It always makes me ask when did big get to be the line in which we measured our happiness, the world of motivational quotes talks about making big, bold decisions and taking big risks.

But is that always the way. During our work together, my client and I talked about how she defined big and how it would show up. Eventually her big dreams got clearer and it turned out they really weren't so big anymore. She didn't really want to move. She loved being close to her face. She really wanted to do graphic design, not fashion design.

And she didn't know if she really wanted to have kids or not. So over the next year, we worked on helping her speak up in a relationship which she eventually left and she started showing up in small ways in her life. She asked for what she needed. She said, no, she set better boundaries. She finished her degree in graphic design and worked for a small startup marketing company doing design.

At least that is what going big means for her dreams, Gusto and adventure, all change over time. One of the key parts of that story is that we did that work for over a year. It wasn't instant. It wasn't magical. It was intentional focused work at the end of our work together. She said to me, I feel way more adventurous now than if I had moved because showing up fully in my life is hard.

If I had moved, I would have missed out on this exciting part of my knife. Now, if I want to move, I'm not moving in search of something. I'm moving simply to see something different. Sometimes when life gets challenging and we don't know what to do next, the temptation is to blow it all up. But I wonder if at the point of thinking, maybe blowing it all up.

Isn't the answer that is when the adventure really begins. I remember in my early thirties, I too wanted to live the Pinterest. Although there was no Pinterest at that time, but I wanted to do something big with my life. I traveled to Peru with a group of strangers. I drove solo across the country twice, once to the east coast at wants to the west coast.

And finally, I decided I wanted to move to Portland, Oregon. I wanted to take my own big, bold adventure. I took a trip to visit Portland with a dear friend of mine, whom I consider to be my second mom. And as we were driving around Portland, I pointed at the back of a car and said, I can't wait until I have an Oregon license plate on my car, because then I'll be happy.

Then I will know that I have lived my big adventure. My second mom simply smiled and nodded and we kept on travel. Over time. Like my client, I realized that living my big adventure had nothing to do with moving to Portland. Although it is still one of my favorite cities, I was looking for a quick fixed.

I believe that when I moved to Portland, I would become a different person, magically. I would know how to set boundaries with family and friends, be comfortable sharing my thoughts and needs and be free of the nasty monger in my head. That was crippling. Similar to my clients who thought the answer to all their problems was by finding the perfect career that made their heart sing.

I believe that the answer to all my self doubt, fear and insecurities was to be found in Portland, Oregon, through my own therapy and lots of discussions with my close friends, I realized the adventure of Portland wasn't going to fix me. The adventure of Portland was just that an adventure. What I decided to do took more patients in time.

I decided to make another equally adventurous decision and put my move on hold to Portland and to stay in Columbus, Ohio, and show up for my life. At the time, it was a temporary decision. I stayed in Ohio and I went on a personal quest to quiet my monger, set, healthier boundaries and stop turning my back on myself and build my own self-love.

Which is why self loyalty is so important to me, it was through this process of wanting to move. I realized how loyal I was to everyone else and how I regularly discounted myself. I believed that when I moved to Portland, I would be able to wipe the slate clean and start over. And then over time I realized in Portland, I would still be me just in a different city with the same baggage.

And if I didn't start the work on myself first, I would just recreate the life I had in Columbus. As I started to build stuff, loyalty life in Columbus became easier. I wasn't as afraid to speak up for myself. I started making decisions based on my own internal values and wisdom rather than constantly checking with my external committee for validation.

Life became more rich and meaningful because I was more engaged in my life rather than jumping through hoops to make everyone else happy. Moving to Portland became less attractive. And I stayed in Columbus, met my now husband and build our life together. So a few years later, my second mom surprised me with the present.

It was an Oregon license plate. As I opened it, I smiled. And she looked at me and said, I just wanted to remind you that this license plate isn't what makes you happy? You make you happy that license plate sits in my office to remind me every day. That for me going big means fully showing up in my life.

The good, the bad and the ugly. Life continues to be full of freaking ups and downs. It isn't perfect here in Columbus and it wasn't going to be perfect in Portland, but it wasn't about where I lived. It was about who I am, where I live. Don't get me wrong. I love a good event. I love big risk-taking adrenaline pumping adventures, but somewhere along the way, we were sold a bill of goods that adventures and risks are directly correlated to being better.

People that a great life is only achieved by living great adventures, which means taking big risks and doing great things. But I'm here to argue sometimes going big means fully showing up as a human being. Being fully present and empathetic when your child comes home from a bad day, even though you have a thousand other things you need to do or telling your spouse that you're struggling and needing some time to do it, compress, holding the hand of your aging parent, looking them in the eyes and telling them how much you love them, admitting to yourself.

You can't do it all anymore and figuring out what are the small changes you need to make in order to bring more self loyalty into your. Giving yourself kindness after receiving some criticism at work, rather than your usual emo, which is to jump all over yourself, these things, they take big courage.

They take big adventure. So often our tendency is to want to fix everything right now. And we can fix things by making big sweeping changes, but that isn't how human beings make change. Everything takes time and has a ripple effect. Learning how to build self loyalty takes time. As many of you know, I have chronic arthritis and a few days ago, the pain was simply miserable.

I had pushed myself all day to stay productive and get things done. And I was standing in the kitchen struggling to make dinner and engaged in my default self-talk of come on, you could do this just a little bit more followed by. There are many people out there who have it so much worse than you be grateful.

You just have to keep pushing. And then somewhere, my biggest fan showed up and said, okay, sweet pea. Let's practice. What you preach. Talk to yourself with kindness. I took a breath and quietly said to myself, this is so freaking hard. Being in pain sucks. I am so tired of pushing and hustling through the pain.

I'm just tired. And immediately tears came to my eyes, my whole body softened. And I felt seen for the first time, rather than viewing myself as something that needed to be fixed or improved, I just gave myself kindness for where I was. This is the power of showing up for ourselves of building self loyalty of embracing our humanness.

That is such an amazing illustration of showing up and being human. We don't have to make big sweeping changes to put our lives on hold, waiting for that magical time. When we had everything figured out, it starts today with small, intentional changes, just like working with my client, small, intentional changes of checking in with yourself, knowing and living from your values and constantly recalibrating all from a place of kindness and self love.

Let's do this. Let's take back the belief that we need to make big, bold changes. Let's do something radical. Let's embrace our humanness and start making small, intentional daily changes.

---

Episode 147: How to Get Out of Your Own Way and Get What You Want

In today’s episode, I am talking with Sarah Kathleen Peck the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast about how to get out of your own way when you are stuck in insecurity and doubt.

Have you been feeling a bit stuck lately, wondering what comes next? 

Saying to yourself that there has to be more? 

If so, you’re not alone.

That’s because I’ve been asking myself these questions lately, too. I’ve noticed that whenever I’m in this place for too long, it usually means I’m looking for the “right answer.” I’m trying to find the “perfect” next step. 

I’m wrapped up in fear, doubt, and insecurity. 

Those feelings are not uncommon when you’re stuck. But when it becomes a pattern—fear, doubt, and insecurity lead to staying stuck and staying stuck leads to those feelings—that’s when getting out of your own way gets tricky. 

This month, I’m continuing this month’s theme of Being Human with Sarah Kathleen Peck. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate everyday insanity. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• There are two types of people: those who know what they want and they’re having a hard time going after it and those who are stuck and don’t know what they want

• Why we all know the answer to what comes next—we just need to get out of our own way

• What I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way

• How our culture has brainwashed us into pushing, pushing, pushing when sometimes the best thing to do is pull back

Resources mentioned:

• startuppregnant.com

• Follow Sarah and Startup Parent on Instagram

• How To Get What You Want course (use this link half off!)

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: We're human. And we are in, I think very nuanced, very contextual situations that change. We are in like peculiar habits and histories. And we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that is a challenging individual and interpersonal that collaborative work

Nancy: Lately I've been feeling stuck, stuck with the question of what comes next saying to myself.

There has to be more right whenever I'm in this place for too long, it usually means I'm looking for the quote unquote answer, trying to find the perfect next step. And I'm all wrapped up in fear, doubt and insecurity. So today on the show, I have Sarah Kathleen Peck, the founder and CEO of startup parent, and the host of the startup parent podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate every day in sanity.

You're in for a unique treat. On this episode, Sarah turned the tables on me. And coach me through my everyday and sanity, which is exactly what I was feeling.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

We are continuing this month's theme of being human with my own humanness on display. As you were talking, Sarah spontaneously started coaching me and helping me get out of my own way. And it was incredibly helpful. Sarah is a writer, speaker startup advisor, and yoga teacher based in New York city.

She's the founder and executive director of startup pregnant, a media company, documenting the stories of women's leadership across work and family. In addition to the startup pregnant podcast, she is the host of the let's talk podcast about productivity, meaning and living well and amazing and interesting factoid.

Sarah is a 20 time all American swimmer who successfully swam the escape from Alcatraz nine separate times once wearing only a swim cap and goggles to raise $30,000 for charity. Sarah. And I talk about the two types of people. There are people who know what they want, and they're having a hard time going after it.

And there are people who are stuck and don't know what they want. The idea that we all know the answer to what comes next. We just need to get out of our own way, what I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way and how our culture has brainwashed us into pushing when sometimes the next best thing to do is pull back.

I am so excited today to have Sarah K. Peck on the show to talk to us about being human fitting in with our theme of the month. Welcome Sarah.

Sarah: Thanks for having me so good to be here.

Nancy: So we were talking before I hit record about the fact that I have been feeling very stuck lately and for a variety of reasons.

And you had just written a wonderful blog post about that, that I had read before I hopped on. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is totally what we're talking about because I'm feeling stuck and Sarah's going to fix me. (laughter)

Sarah: I want to know what are you feeling stuck on?

Nancy: My business is going well but it's kinda like I have all this time, which is ironic considering what we were also talking about. The fact that Sarah has two kids and time is of the essence for her, but I don't have kids. And so I have some of this extra time and I'm, I want to, I'm wanting to know what I want to fill it up with next.

What's the next project I want to take on. And everything sounds every. I don't know if you have it ever have a mood like this, where nothing sounds good. Like it doesn't sound good to take the day off. It doesn't sound good to binge watch TV. It doesn't sound good to take a nap. It doesn't sound good to work.

Just everything just feels yucky.

Sarah: And what do you want like something to feel good about a direction to go? Can you tell me in your words what it is that you want?

Nancy: I love how we're doing a reverse therapy session here.

Sarah: I have to ask these questions. If you tell me a problem, we're going to go there.

Nancy: Okay Ask the question again. What do want? Is that what you said?

Sarah: What do you want,

Nancy: I want to not have such a loud, inner critic that I call a monger. I want to have to be excited about what I do, which I am, but I want, I'm struggling answering the question.

Sarah: Most people do by the way, struggle.

Nancy: Oh, that's good to know. Yeah.

Sarah: while you're thinking about it, I'll just say, so I do teach a course on getting what you want. And the hardest part of the course is figuring out what you want. I usually divide groups of people into two. There are people who know what they want and they're having a hard time going after it.

And there's people who are stuck in. They're like I don't know what I want. And I think a lot of our lives are figuring out the answers to both of those questions. What do I want next?. How do I go after it? So if you don't know. It sounds to me from knowing you for just a few minutes, that a little bit like hazy, like there's you're not satisfied, feeling a little flat, maybe about where you are like that flat, okay, I've done these things.

What's next is a question you might be asking, where should I go? What should I do? And why? Okay. But what do you think?

Nancy: I agree. I'll answer the question, but I have one other question. Do you think that people know what they really know the answer to the question they just can't get out of their own way to answer it.

Sarah: Yes, I actually do.

Nancy Yeah. Okay. So you think it's. You just have to stop all the crap to get to it.

Sarah: So my next question would be, what have you tried? What are you what are you exploring? And when you have been stuck in the past, what have you done that has worked or not worked? So then I would get into process questions around do you go on long meditative walks in the forest?

Do you interview people on the podcast? Do you talk to friends? What are your tools in your toolkit for getting unstuck? And it's fine. Again, if you have not thought about this before and not done it before, because the best thing, then we get to experiment, then we get to try not to be like, what am I going to try?

Nancy: Because I would say in a practical sense, it's between two things that I want to spread. I want to talk more about high functioning anxiety. That's what I want to do. I either want to do that in the form of writing another book, or I went to do that in the form of starting up a YouTube channel and doing videos.

What I really want is to write another book. Okay. But I have a lot of, that's a waste of time. You shouldn't be doing that. You should be doing something more productive for your business. You shouldn't be just, sitting at home, writing a book.

Sarah: Okay. And how do you feel when you say that out loud?

Nancy: I feel like that's really. Stupid is the wrong word, but that's just no, I really want to write a book. Like I wish I could just get into that position and being like, no, I really want to write a book and hold that and not waiver

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, no apologies necessary.

I, I think from the outside, like what's really cool. And listeners might hear this too, is you, it's very clear what you want. You've got a want and you've got a should, and then you've got all these noises. Cause you said, I, it, people listening. She said I want to write a book and I heard you say it like four times.

I want to write a book. What I really want to do is write, I want to write a book. And the second part of that is what I want is I want to write a book without all the second guessing without all of the, those voices. My interpretation of that, and this is a. A working, living practice,

I haven't achieved, this is what I'm trying to say. But my the best way I could work with this is that when you have those voices, they are actually clues and they tell us a lot about what we want. So like those loud voices, those, I shouldn't do it at it. I should be, working on my…

all of those shoulds are those little tiny gremlins that are actually really clear clues about the things that are important to us, that we care about, that we want that maybe we don't even we don't have a good reason, like a good logical front brain reason for it. So we're scared, right?

We don't know why we want something. We just know that we want it and that our heart craves it and that it could go wildly wrong. And so it's scary. Yeah.

Nancy: The irony, and just to show everyone that even when you are an expert, doesn't mean you can get out of your own way. That's what I write about are these little gremlins characters.

I have them. So it just and I know that's what it is, but it doesn't make it any easier to get out of my own way.

Sarah: A hundred percent. Actually this is legit. Why humans need other humans? Because we are in it in psychological terms, we are reflective selves. Like we learn so much about each other by reflecting off of each other about ourselves, by reflecting off of each other.

And so the things that we teach about the things I teach about the things you teach about and the things that we're learning about doesn't mean we're immune from it. It means we're also human and we're going to go through the same doc gosh, darn thing. It's going to be just as hard for us. And yeah, we're right, right there.

Okay. So what, who I know now I'm asking you all the questions, but what do you want to write about

Nancy: I wrote a book already that is about and hopefully listeners know that is about the inner critic. The, Its call the happier approach.

It's about the monger, who is my voice for the inner critic. And then I have two other characters. One is the voice of false self-compassion, that's called the BFF. And then one is the biggest fan, which is our voice of kindness and wisdom. And I went to, and so when I wrote the book originally, I did not talk about, I really it's really concentrating on the monger, but now I'm realizing that it's that BFF, that voice of false self-compassion that has more of a play than I realized.

And so I'd like to write a book about her and how she sabotages us by make secretly and so that's what I want to write about, oh my

Sarah: God. I love this. Do you have stories already? Do you have do you have an outline? Do you have shapes? What is it, what is the feeling of wanting to write the book look like for you?

Nancy: I don't have an outline. This is what I tend to cause what I tend to do when I'm feeling stuck is the first messages you have nothing new to share. You don't know anything. And I literally can't grasp anything. Like I, like even if I sat down to write an outline, it would be blank. But when you say, how do I, like what comes up for me when I'm like, oh my gosh, this to me, this BFF piece has really been a game changer and figuring out self-doubt and getting out of my own way and recognizing that I sabotaged myself through giving my self false self-compassion and, or judging other people.

To soothe myself and I spend a lot of time in those places, not moving forward, if that makes sense. So I feel there's. When I settle myself there's a lot there.

Sarah: What's this voice, his name? Is it a persona? Like I know it's the voice of false self-compassion, but is she, does she also have she's, I'm like, who is she?

Nancy: I have a visual of her and she's, and I call her the BFF. Cause she's like your high school BFF. Who's whatever. Totally awesome. You're going to be great. And she's such a bitch. I can't believe she said that about you and let's go get, let's go get donuts or let's drink a six pack.

We'll be fine. We just need to, blow off some steam, that voice. And so I based her off of Amy Schumer. Okay. The comedian that's who the, she looks like, cause it's just like fun and up for anything the party. Not the person, Amy Schumer, but the character she plays.

And so it is that idea of whatever I want to do or that idea of whatever you do is perfect. Oh, wisdom to her voice. It's just, whatever you do is amazing. And it can cause people to stay in toxic relationships and overeat and over drink and all those things, it comes up in this book I don't want to write the book because I'm comparing myself to all these other people and my BFF is judging them for what they've written.

And therefore that makes me feel like, oh, I can't write it.,

Sarah: Oh interesting. Because you, so part of it is the I don't know what the drifting towards complacency, like they're always encouraging you to be like no, we won't do it tonight. We'll, we'll drink beer and watch a movie because.

It like everyone watches a movie on Friday night, don't work so hard. You're like, do it tomorrow kind of thing.

Nancy: yeah, you got it.

Sarah: I know that one. Yeah. So I actually I'll tell you a tiny side story. So when I was in my twenties in San Francisco everyone, this is super bowl thing.

People love football. And they were like, everyone would be like, oh, let's watch the super bowl together. And I was like, I can think of a lot of things that are fun to me and sitting, watching television is not one of them for me. And especially like drinking and overeating is not my cup of tea.

So I finally found my path towards watching the super bowl, which is that I would do a half marathon in the morning when they finally wanted to eat a lot and sit down. Because I just run 13 miles. And that was just me.. The voice that comes up in between is that I'm abnormal. I'm weird. Why can't I do things like the way that everyone else does them, why don't like everybody watches this show and they like drink some beers and they like, the advertisements, like why do you feel so fidgety and irritable, and like, why is this not fun for you? And owning that part of yourself that wants to do something else, whether it's like walking through the forest or painting your toenails or whatever it is running 13 miles. I don't do that anymore. My hips are too screwed up, but yeah. Okay. So that's part of it is the, like the complacency, the kind of like insidiousness of oh, take a break.

But then part of it is that she's a bee and she's judging people all the time. So you're afraid of being judged that way.

Nancy: Exactly. Like it's that, it's the cool girl that you want to fit in with. And so you do all these things to appease her and I, and I think, that piece that you said, which I, and that's why I talk to my clients a lot about building self loyalty is a big theme of my work, but owning that part of you that doesn't want to do what everyone says you should do, or the norm quote, unquote, whatever that means is is, that idea of constantly turning my back on who I am and what I want.

That's what I've, that's what I'm doing because in so many ways, but knowing what you're doing and doing it differently are two very different thing.

Sarah: I also think that like that, there's a reason this is all coming up for you now, because if you're going to write about this, you need the material.

And so part of this is like just document for them days, everything that comes up, like every single way the voice comes up and then, oh, there's the book, like it's going to be, it's actually in a weird way going to make writing the book easier because you're going to come up against every single word.

The voice comes in.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, that idea of slowing down and just trusting that it, everything will come as it's ready and not knowing the line. I have always struggled with knowing the line of I need to push through this versus just be patient and it will come is, has always been it's something that I think that is insidious with anxiety in general.

But we are plus the idea of mostly it's, I'm always going to push through that's what Western society teaches us. Just keep pushing. And sometimes the power comes and pulling back.

Sarah: There's so much here because, a friend of mine also is she also has a lot of anxiety. And one of the things that she has said is she's at the end of the day, I don't always know what.

To believe because you don't know which one is actually me because I trained for so long and all these other voices, like the dominant, patriarchal, oppressive of masculine hustle, culture, voice is one. And it's inside of all of us, the pay it's the Puritan work ethic. It's the idea that if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and work harder as an individual, you too can get anything done.

And if you haven't, it's your fault, right? That's that is smashed into us. And then there's the like gendered voices that we all have that, we could talk for hours about the ways that women are trained and cultured and the mean girls and all the different people. And it affects men too, right?

In different ways. There's gendered ways that men are affected, especially when it comes to tapping into and understanding and respecting emotions. And then we're all just left here being like, so whose voice do I believe in which one is actually. Mine,

Nancy: right? Yeah.

That's the hard part. And so for me, a lot of times, which I haven't been doing interestingly as we're talking, I was like, oh, cause for me, it is, if I could just bring in a piece of kindness even to say, oh, it just really sucks that you're struggling with this right now. That's just so hard just to be able to.

In doing that, I remind myself that I'm actually a full human being, as opposed to, I think I get stuck in this thing that I'm a machine and I can push through when I just need to keep going. But the, I, when I can give myself kindness, it's like something flips inside of me to be like, oh yeah, you are a person.

Sarah: You're not a machine. You're not a robot, no matter what's going on Silicon valley aspires to. Exactly. Yeah. There's so much of the noise of the interwebs of all the blogs and all the pseudoscience is people who dole out really bad. About arbitrary. Unreal, perfect worlds. Oh, all you need to do is have a little more willpower.

I'm sorry. Are you living in a pandemic with two small children? Trapped with them in a New York city home? Because I am, I don't think it's about willpower. I'm using my willpower not to punch a wall. (Laughter)

Nancy: Yeah. I wish we had more of that refreshing frank talk. (Laughter)

Sarah: like I did. I spent it, I used all my willpower now.

What do you want me to do? Tell me where's the willpower Beck. Is it free? Does willpower grow on trees? Thank you. Thank you.

Nancy: Yeah, that'd be great. If you could just purchase it out of a vending machine,

Sarah: but that's not how it work. And we're human and I love that you said this we're human and we are in, I think just like very nuanced, very contextual situations that change.

We are in like peculiar habits and histories. Like we have all these old, I don't know, what do they call them in in my yoga trainings coming out, but they call them samskaras, but we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that isn't is a challenging individual.

Interpersonal that collaborative work.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, because those default patterns are strong, man. You use a well-worn path that is hard to unhook.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. It's so hard. So the questions I just asked you for people listening, by the way that we went through I'll tell you like, this is the course in a nutshell, although I have like lots of videos and little rabbit holes that I take you down to, but I ask what do you.

Now, what is it that you want? And if you don't know, how will you figure it out? The good news, if you don't, this is like the punchline. If you don't know what you want, the good news is actually that what you want is to know what yeah.

Nancy: Ah, nicely done.

Sarah: Great congratulationsr. Now our job is to figure out and the next step is how will we, what have you tried?

What have you learned? And if you're like, oh, okay. Or nothing, and I've tried nothing, it's then great. Your next 12 weeks are an experiment. I want you to try one new thing every week and we'll go from there. And then I would layer into that two more questions, which is, who is it for? And why is it so important?

Like what's behind it. What is, what are you hoping to get out of it? Whether your own personal transformation or joy, or just a simply because I want to or because there's someone, who needs to hear this and you're hoping to transform someone else's.

Nancy: Because that's, one of my big messages is you can't waste time.

And how, you're not wasting time is if you can, cause that's what struck me about your article. Yeah. The article you had on your website about being stuck is it was like, we won't know how I don't waste time as if I know what the finished product is going to be.

And I can play it all the way out and be like, oh, that'll be worth it. And you were like, we won't know that you answered that right away. Right away. You said, you won't know. And I was like, oh no. Oh,

Sarah: I know it's so disappointing. Let me just I empathize with this because it's so frustrating for me too, but let me just explain and clarify, like here's where some spirituality might come in.

For those of you that are spiritual or religious, or you believe in a higher power. But also if you're a total science geek like me, it works in all sorts of. Let's say you do have the master plan. And I don't like the word master. Let's say you do have a glorious plan and you know how it's going to play out.

And you're like, yes, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to write the book. And this is how it's going to transform people's lives. What's the point it's boring. If you've already played it out in your head and you already know everything that's going to happen, then your job becomes one of a cognitive machine where you don't get any delight or joy or serendipity or surprise.

And I think that the majority of us actually cannot fathom how many things we can do with the time we have and how much we can grow. Like we are so limited at times in our imagination, the things that we imagine are short-sighted and they're so small compared to all that we can do. And so this is where I know there are phrases.

I used to study Bible school and I don't anymore. But what are the, like what somebody who is spiritual will know, we will be listening to this. Only God knows the plans he has for you. It's like a phrase that I've heard. Other people say you cannot know the plans the universe has for you. You cannot even imagine and fathom the scope of all that you could potentially do.

And so why make a plan to try to stick to it? If you could know, it would be boring..

Nancy: I just got chills when you were saying that. I have to say because the cog in the machine like that is, what's so fascinating about it is I want to, I don't want to be a cog in the machine, obviously. I don't want to be a I don't want to be a robot, but my default pattern is to try to be a robot.

Sarah: You want to know what the certainty you're craving at some, for some reason. Yes.

Nancy: And that's but then when you're like then I would just make you robotic and I'd be like, oh yeah, I don't want to be a robot. Okay. No

Sarah: squash the joy. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Like part in part, like one of the, one of the characters that comes along with joy is frustration and annoyance and all in sadness and gladness and happiness, like all of the different you don't get to pick out the emotions that you want and discard the rest of them.

So if we want a life that has joy, and if we want to experience these things, we also have to experience the other yucky stuff. We have to try it and see, we got to see okay, I'm going to try to write this book. And then, three weeks later you're like, Fricking sucks. Like I don't want to live with whatever it is.

And you're like, okay, now I know I tried it like, but then underneath it, you dig past a few pages. You're like, oh my goodness. I wouldn't have known this tool was here in this book is actually about this,

Nancy: right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was interesting. I was just talking with a client a couple of weeks ago and she was saying how, this is such a simple example, but it's so accurate that she was driving somewhere.

And she was like, I'm going to listen to a podcast because that's what a good person does in their cars. They listen to podcasts, then they expand their mind, yeah. And then she was like, oh, but maybe I think I'm just going to listen to music. And it was just like she said, and I don’t know where I just turned on my music and she's which I never do because I always have to be productive, listening to podcasts.

And she's and I just danced in the car and it was just like this, I got out of my head. It was just this amazing 10 minute commute. And it was all I was doing was listening to music. And I'm like, yes, like that's what you're just talking about is that idea of, let me get out of being a robot and do something that's just fun for the sake of fun.

Yes. And I don't know where it's going to go, but gosh, that's hard.

Sarah: I'm talking about productivity for this mix of productivity. Yes. So like it's never all or nothing. I think being productive. Delicious and driven and efficient, like that can be wonderful. And also the last 300 to 500 years of like obsession with the industrial efficient, like the industrial complex is so overdone right now, there's more to the world than being productive, but we have all ingrained it so deeply in this Western rational, scientific culture.

And here's where I want to be a little bit. Counter-culture you, do you have more men or women listening to your show?

Nancy: I have more women.

Sarah: Okay, good. But this will be for everyone, but actually, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to edit that and take that back because the patriarchy harms everyone.

But it is how do I say this in a way that makes sense. One of the weapons of patriarchy and white supremacy, one of the weapons of power is convincing people to work as fast as they possibly can because it keeps them tired and it keeps them complacent. So if you can't breathe, if you don't have time remaining to have 10 minutes of joy to listen to music, because it's simply gives you pleasure to read a book without checking your freaking phone to do the things that you're allowed to do because you're allowed to be here right now. If you are so busy trying to chase the next thing, it actually takes your power away from you. Somebody else is controlling the power and in the culture we live in today, especially in the world of patriarchy, this harms women more than men, but it does harm everyone.

We're so stuck being busy that we don't. Yes. So this new, what did you say you can't waste time? Yeah. Yes, you can waste as much time as you need to. It's your life.

Nancy: And that's the, you know what I always constantly say to myself is who's saying it's wasting. Yeah. Like where does that?

What's the definition of wasting time versus that's right. Being productive because reading a book for your. Can be productive, right? Depending on your definition. I think

Sarah: if you tune into the feeling like really tap in and be like, why am I doing this right now? Am I doing this for my own desire and pleasure?

Or am I doing this because I should, the woman who got into the car and listened to a podcast, probably on double speed. We're not going to, we're not going to go to our grave being like, and this woman listened to half a million. These are not actually accomplishments separate from. And I think we've unlearned the joy of learning.

If you are listening to things because you are so enamored or you're so curious, or you want to be learning something, or you're just hungry, like there's such a special relationship with knowledge and information and wisdom where you at, where you are. Just crave it and be like, oh my God, but how does that work?

How does that work? Why is this well, where does that come from? I'm curious, like that kind of joy of learning is really beautiful and sometimes it leads you down a rabbit hole where you're like, okay, I'm going to learn corporate law and accounting and one variable statistics because I'm going to do it and it's not going to be that fun.

And you can shoot on yourself and be like, I'm just going to get through this. And then later on, you'll be able to dance with all of that because now the design of corporations is an art form to you because you've mastered the technique, right? Learning piano skills, maybe there's time when doing the repetitions is not that exciting to you, but you are striving towards a place of joy.

Yeah. Nobody thinks that having bleeding blisters from running the guitar chords is like a radical act of fun, but being able to play guitar for the rest of your life at a campfire whenever you want. It's pretty cool. Yeah. I don’t know. We just went, I just went down a big rabbit hole, (Laughter)

Nancy: (Laughter). No, I was just, like, oh yeah, I'm running this interview until I need to

wait a minute. Who's asking who ?!?!,

Sarah: I tripped you up because in the beginning I asked you all these questions. I was like let's get right into this. Yeah, no,

Nancy: I appreciate it. So one of the blogs that, and this is similar to what you were just talking about. One of the blogs you wrote about was because I want to, or because I don't want to are perfectly acceptable answers.

Sarah: Yeah. Have you ever lived with a three-year-old?

I actually think, I don't need to spend more time with children, regardless of whether or not you like want to have them on your own. Which, five months into a pandemic is a dubious decision. I'm kidding children if you listened to this, but regardless of whether or not you are the what's the right word owners, that's not the right.

What is that guardians, there we go as like we're parents, but also whether or not you have them yourself. I think being around children is so lovely because it teaches us so much about how to see the world and how to play. And like sometimes you see what they do and you're like, I need to be a little bit more like you, right?

The three-year-old that's no, I don't want to wear shoes today. Or like I'm wearing a purple shoe and a pink shoe and a glitter bra. And you're like great. Like you do you that can be enough of a reason. So often we're searching for external validation. And I think this is again where we give our power away.

We're looking for other people to validate choices that we already know we want to make. And over time that actually arose. Our relationship with our own as Martha Beck would say our essential self. So when I ask you something like, what do you want? If you aren't practicing, cultivating a relationship with that voice inside you that says, this seems fun.

Ooh, I want that. Let's try this. And the essential self, not the what's the word? The, for me, it's the one that eats, half a cup of fish, food, ice cream at night. It's I'm tired of just one fish food is the type of ice cream, chocolate ice cream for those listening. It's the deepest knowing the deepest desire that hunger inside of you, that's like between the bottom of your belly and all the way down to your pelvic floor.

There's a sensation it's different for different people. There's like a tingling sensation. I'm not talking about the sexual one. And it tells you like a spark. Like I want this I, and I don't know why. But I just do I have a hunger for this. I have a craving for this, and I want to, I think so many people have lost touch with that sense sensibility and it's I don't know.

It might be the most important voice that we have that we can cultivate listening to.

Nancy: Ah, yeah. I totally agree. Yeah, I saw it in myself. Yeah. And I see it in my clients. The idea of I'm feeling when it comes to feelings, I'm feeling sad. I shouldn't feel sad.

I should be grateful. There's so many things to be, or I'm feeling really frustrated with my kids right now. Why shouldn't be a good mom would not feel frustrated. And and a lot of times I'll be like, you're feeling sad, period. That's what you're feeling. It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or a bad thing, or why or what.

Is what it is. And when I was finally able to say that to myself, that's when things started shifting, because I could just be like, this is what it is.

Sarah: I have so much I could talk about here with feelings, because so two things that you said that really stand out to me, like first, when we use that should word, I shouldn't be feeling sad.

We're invalidating our own experience. We're completely denying ourselves the reality of actually you are feeling this thing. I think we're so scared of feeling those things because we haven't been given a roadmap, like how should we express and feel feelings. Most people think they're going to stick around forever.

The good news is an emotion only lasts for 90 seconds. Usually.

Nancy: that's my favorite statistic I love that.

Sarah: And for me a lot of times, they have these layers. If anyone has watched Shrek, you can be like, why can't you be like cake, cake has layers. We have layers to be like cake. So feelings of worth of layers and the ones on the top aren't necessarily all there is. And we can feel lots of different things. At the same time. We can be devastated and sad that someone has passed away and relieved that we no longer have to care for them because it was so much work.

Like you're allowed to feel both of those things at the same time. You can feel like bittersweet and you can feel angry. You can feel, I have two small children and they, I like bounce around from, oh my God, I love you so much. I want to eat you, which is such a weird feeling, but I have, I like want to eat them, which I don't understand.

But also like expletive face, like feeling like I need to buy a punching bag so I can, punch a bag. Please add an agenda. There was no harming of children involved right before or after, like none of this actually happened. But stealing is in there and You can feel lots of things at once and there are layers to them.

So sometimes for me, I feel super, super angry. Anger comes up first and if I start to express it, if I allow myself to express it, which is usually, which is hard for me because angry women, like people are not supposed to be angry. Men have more permission to be angry, punch a pillow or a scream. I get a pillow, I scream into it.

I got on my Peloton bike and I like turn the dial up as hard as it can go. After I express the anger. Usually what comes next is. I'm actually really sad and that sadness comes out and I don't know why I'm crying, but I'm crying on the bike and there's some music playing and it's usually like a sappy inspirational song, Rocky theme, I start crying.

And then I there's like a clue and I realized. Something's really hard and I'm sad. And then I'm scared is usually the next and I'm scared. I'm nervous. I am so scared about being good enough parent. I'm scared that my job won't work, I'm four years into an entrepreneurship path and we're now profitable, which is great, but it's gotta make more money.

How am I going to make that happen? All of these things COVID is driving me bonkers and I don't like that. It's is really itching my skin (laughter)

Nancy: wearing on your soul, (Laughter)

Sarah: yes! Wearing on my soul That's right. So yeah, there's like feelings, capital F we don't have a good map for how to have feelings collectively.

We're all like, pre-adolescent at best in our training for how to have feelings. Like no one taught us. This is what it looks like in your body. This is where it lives. These are the sensations, like bubbles in your stomach, feel like this. And like loose bowels might correlate to that. You get the nervous shits.

Sorry. I don't know if you're swearing.. What does that mean? Like when does that come up? We don't. We're not taught to see these as patterns and start to map them out and analyze them and be like, oh, you know what? I always get these nervous flutters. And it's always related to things that are really important to me.

And then I'm excited about maybe this is excitement and fear, and then how do I feel next? And how do I feel afterwards? And it's oh, you know what, if this is my pattern, this is my loop. It's an sorry for the confessional, but not sorry. It's like nervous shits. Then I get excited. Then I get super stinky armpits.

And I need to wear black t-shirts because I sweat through on stage, but then I feel powerful and I feel alive and I feel connected. And I feel proud of myself and I will take that Sonata every time. But yeah, I will take those four emotions at the end. If it means I've got to take them with some nervous shits and some sweaty armpits.

I'll do it.

Nancy: But it's noticing the mean, I think too back to the, not to keep bringing it back to being human, but it, because if I treat myself like a robot, I'm not going to see the patterns. If I treat myself as a human being, I can start recognizing, oh, I do this. And then I do this. And then I do this.

And it's more of a open exploratory than a rigid control all the time.

Sarah: And we get so shortsighted about fixing that specific oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way. This means that we put meaning on top of that specific feeling. And then we also. Sticks that feeling. And I actually, especially for people who deal with anxiety, I think that trying to fix a feeling sometimes causes more anxiety.

Nancy: Oh, absolutely. I think much of anxiety period is not dealing with feelings.

Sarah: That's right. That's right. And so that some things my, years of cognitive behavioral therapy have taught me or to identify the sematic, the bodily experience. So start to become a scientist and just write down everything that's happening in your anxiety.

Tingling on skin hair on end Twitch in my right eye, like tapping on my foot, like wherever it is in your body, I start to. Become really analytical about it and write it and then take notes at predictable times over the next couple of days, because you start to see these really cool story arcs that happen and how things relate to each other.

And then you can evaluate instead of clamping down and shitting on yourself, like this experience was bad. Adding that judgment on top of the observation, if we can refrain from that judgment, say, okay, Here's what I observe. Here's the story now? How do I feel about this as a holistic thing? Oh, okay. You know what?

I do want some of this to go away. Now I can go talk to someone or learn about merges and who else has dealt with it, but there's so much immediate collapsing. I feel so nervous and I get a stutter and I trip over myself and I want to vomit and all of that's bad. And therefore I should crawl into a hole and die and it's okay, slow down you.

This is myself talking. I'm not telling you what to do. They live in my head too.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. But then what I, then what we do is we'll be like, oh, I'm back to productivity. I just read this article that says, I have to get up at 5:00 AM. And I got to do these. These are what success. These are the five things successful people do before 5:00 AM or whatever.

Yes. Yes. Instead of recognizing, do I want to get up at 5:00 AM? Is that when my body works best? Is that when I have the time to do stuff or is it better for me to stay up late? That's right. And paying attention to what works for me, not just some random expert that I found an article on Facebook about

Sarah: who's be BSing their way through, in any ways, like whether or not they actually know what they're doing.

They're just posturing. Most of the time

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. Flipping subjects completely. Because we were just talking about social media. I recently stepped away from social media specifically Facebook and Instagram and shut everything down for a variety of reasons, some of it political with much of it, political with a Zuckerberg, but also just because of anxiety, it just was not serving me at all. And I'm like, I help you with anxiety. I can't be telling people to go on social media. Cause I know it's not good for anxiety. And I thought that you took a break or taking a break.

And so everyone keeps asking me, how's it going? What's happening, blah, blah, blah. So I wanted to ask you those same questions.

Sarah: I know it's I have a hard time with all or nothings. But I do try to dial it way back. I actually wrote a piece for Harvard business review about taking a social media sabbatical.

Cause they try to take one every summer for a month. I take a break. And then, in, in a regular pattern, I might take a day off every weekend. Try to leave my phone on a room for a day just to reset my body because news the media, social media phones and devices are. Very much designed to take advantage of our psychological system and our nervous system.

And there's documented evidence that, and I'm sure you've shared this with your folks as well, but there's documented evidence that like, when we sit at a computer, we don't breathe and not breathing deeply. We do breathe, but we take these shallow little sips of breath and then we hold our breath and that alone can cause anxiety.

You might not have a problem other than a computer problem. Now, please, I'm not going to diagnose you are validated. You absolutely may have a problem or an Whatever we call them diagnoses, but they can be exacerbated by not breathing. And one of the things, so in paying attention to all these patterns in my own life, some of the patterns that have come up for me include if I do 30 minutes of deep belly breathing and 30 minutes of exercise where my heart rate gets over one 40, I can keep the majority of my anxiety at bay in that I'll have a healthy, as much as I can understand.

I'm using air quotes, like normal amount of anxiety in any given day. Like I'll still fret. I'll still be stressed. I'll still be, but it doesn't seem to get so intense as to feel really bad or militating. 30 minutes of exercise, heart rate over one 40 and 30 minutes of deep belly breathing, which means I have to not be on a computer or a device.

Yeah. Walking through the forest really helps, like in an ideal world, the things that help are also talking to a friend for an hour going for a walk outside without a device, listening to music, like all of these become tools in my toolkit.

Nancy: Because you have been observing yourself

Sarah: because I've been observing myself and I've worked with a therapist now for 10 or 12 years, multiple therapists.

And so they have also been observing me and say, oh, Sarah, have you exercise lately? Screw you exactly. I know I should get on the bike. My husband will be like, Hey, you want a bike today? I'll be like, I don't bike today. Sorry about that. I'm really sorry.

Nancy: It is just like this, the last thing I want to do, even though I know it's good for me, I know I'll feel better.

Sarah: That's great. I don't need to go on a walk. There's not a bad thing,

but back to social media. So I take some breaks and I know these things about myself and I pay attention to like, how does it make me feel? And a really simple experiment you can do is okay, I'm going to get on it. How do I feel? What is the feeling that's causing me? Do I feel lonely?

Do I feel sad? Do I feel anxious? What's the instigating feeling. Okay. How long did I stay? Just glance at your clock? It's 1 54. Okay. Now you're stopping. What time is it? Two 15. You spent 20 minutes. How do you feel now? And a lot of times, like I get sucked in and I just keep scrolling and there is no end.

And then I'm ending up in that place where I'm like looking at someone else's life. Like I'm like, how did I find this high school friend from 27 years ago? Now I've learned that they've had a baby and I'm wondering what their baby name is, but I don't. And I looked up they're busy. I don't even know why I got here.

So that's what I would call like the not good for me. Social media use and. And I just pay attention up that one doesn't make me feel good, but the good news is social media and phones and devices generally are beneficial to us when we engage in one-on-one or small group activity. And so that's the part I miss the most when I take a break, is that my groups, like the people that I talk to on a regular basis to people that I message, like some of us use those platforms for specific one-on-one communication and one-on-one connection with other people is beneficial.

That's actually the best connection we can have. So for me, if I'd take a break. It needs to be a short amount of time. So I don't lose a lot of social connection or I need to proactively set up like, all right, I'm going to reach out to these 20 friends and send a calendar, or I'm going to set up 20 coffee dates with people and send a calendar invitation and talk to someone every day for an hour, because I need something to replace that habit.

I cannot willpower my way through. Just don't do it.

Nancy: right, yeah. Yeah, because that's something I really have is I've been texting people more than I would have commented. Like I would have just commented on their post on Facebook and now I'm like, oh, I'm going to really reach out to them.

But I, as you were talking, I was like, one of the things I use social media for is I will go on there to figure out what do I want? Oh, interesting. I comparing myself to other people and seeing what they're doing and getting ideas. This is what I'm telling myself, but really it, if I pay attention to how I feel, I just feel crappier.

Like it isn't helping inspire me because I'm looking outside of myself for an answer that's inside of myself. So that's partly why this is happening to me right now, this whole, what do I want? Cause I can't do my normal. Let's just go online and figure it out. Even though that doesn't work anyway. You know what I mean?

Sarah: That's right. That's right. It's so easy to see other people and they get so distracted because we think that we should want what they want. But we have to remember that what they see, what they're showing us is a fabrication, right? Yeah. It's not their real life. It's PR it's just, it's the, yeah. The happy, positive, curated, or the outreach version.

Like it's just, it's not it's most people post two things on social media, things that inspire outrage or things that are like super happy milestones and rituals,

Nancy: right? Yeah. Yeah.,

Sarah: They don't say hey I had a fight with my husband today and then I worked it out

Or did you know that mashed banana really is hard to get out of the car.

Like these riveting moments in our lives of the day to day

Nancy: . Yeah. But what's, yeah, what's been interesting is since I posted it in this forum that I'm on for small businesses and now I've become like, everyone's like, how's it going? What's happening? All this I'm going to do it too.

And I'm like, I'm not causing a social movement here. This is just something I've decided to do for me, because I do think that each person's relationship with social media is different and can make that decision themselves. But just because I say, oh, I'm taking a stand. It's been interesting to watch people be like, oh, I should take a stand too.

But I'm like, you don't need to take a stance.

Sarah: Maybe you gave them permission. They're like, oh, you know what? I actually want to try.

Nancy: Yes, totally. I hope that's the case. Cause I don't want it to be like, oh, I should do this. Cause I have a lot of, I've been thinking about it for a long time. So I have a lot of detailed arguments as to why for me, this is a good choice and I've shared this with people and they're like, oh, that's so well thought out.

I should totally agree with you, but it's your life, like you need to decide social media too. But that is for me just to, as a reminder to myself and to everyone else that list that, that conviction I had on that decision. And even when someone says like, when you're like, oh, I need it. I like it for one-on-one communication in small groups.

So I can only do it a short amount of time and I'm not an all or nothing person. If I wasn't really clear on my. Stance or how it affects me that would've wavered me. Then I would have been like, oh, maybe I need one communication too. Or I'm being overly dramatic with the all or nothing thing. So I need to stop doing that.

Like it would have caused my own guy. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've done my own dive into this particular subject. I feel solid in it. And so I don't get, I'm not wavering with every person doubting me.

Sarah: Okay. So let me get geeky here with some folks. And I'll send you the Harvard business review article.

So what I wrote was I actually did four different experiments with social media sabbaticals, and I did four different, I designed a four different ways of doing it. One of them, I blocked it from nine to four, and I only did an hour in the weekday afternoons for four to 5:00 PM. One of the, like another week.

Or another month, they only did Friday afternoons. Like I set up specific different types because I wanted to try it and see. And so my recommendation would be for people, if you're in that place, this is actually right back to where we started. This conversation is what do you want? If you don't know, then we're going to try it and see, we're going to try something. So you have arrived at a place where you're very clear about what you want, because you've done the research. You've thought about it. You've looked at your own self, you've done the inquiry. You've been examining and analyzing. You're like, okay, this is the best path. But for other people who, and they're probably happening right now, they're looking at how thoughtful and meticulous your research is.

And they're like, oh, I want to try that. Now when you try it, people listening, if you think if you try it and then you get five days in and you're like, oh, darn it. I really need to get on Facebook because I need to contact so-and-so because this is the only place I know how to find her.

That's not a failure. That is a data point where you're like, oh, fascinating. This is what I use this tool for. Or if every night at 6:00 PM, you're like, you just need a beer and a scroll. That's a data point. You're learning about yourself. Okay. This is the time of day when I really love scrolling for 45 minutes.

What if I just allowed that? What if I said, you know what? I'm going to go off social media like this, but every night at six, I get 45 minutes and ask yourself that question in the beginning. Do, how do I feel before, during, and after now, if you feel like a POS at the piece of poo, if you feel awful at the end of it, then that's another data point.

You're like, oh, every day I do the scroll for 45 and I feel awful. Huh? What could I do instead, maybe next week, what I'll try is I'm going to try asking friends to do phone calls at 6:00 PM. That's what I've been trying instead set something up where I'm going to talk to someone for an hour and then I'm going to measure again, how do I feel?

I'm such a scientist, by the way, I'm going to better again, how I feel at the end. So you don't have to get it right? Nobody has a map for your life, right? And you, if you don't know. Just do an experiment, try it and see, play around and be like, you know what? I'm going to try this week. I'm going to try that next week.

And I'm going to learn as part of the process. I

Nancy: love that. Yeah. And that applies across the board. Yeah. Not just social media, I'm saying like that you just walked us exactly through how to do an experiment, to figure out what I will tell you.

Sarah: I have a book called your life as an experiment that I've written 40,000 words of, and haven't shipped

like one of my life philosophies is try it and see, I guess I'm a little, I get a little concerned now it's my turn to be in the seat. But I'm a little afraid that I'm telling people your life is an experiment and that they're going to be like, screw you. It is not you don't know what I've lived through.

Like what a white girl thing to say. And so I'm just like sitting on it and being like, is this really. Is this essential messaging and I don't know what to call it. I might call it, try it and see, but I really do believe as you can tell people listening, do you wanna email me what you heard from this?

Please find me on my website and tell me what you think. But I want to find a way to share this message that we don't need to know the answers. And you can treat your life a little more like an experiment,

Sarah: But it is, I think for so much of our lives where we get caught in the weeds, it's just because we've got to get more done.

Nancy: But I think, I totally hear your, why you have your doubts and why you're debating it. And, I think that is across the board is something in, in a variety of ways that we need to know that because we have, even in our white supremacy systems, everything is so rigid.

And to be able to see it as an I can get out of this shackle for lack of a better word. And be freer more free. Yeah. If I view my life as an experiment and not something that's right or wrong in everything I do that's right. And everything I say I have more freedom to make mistakes and therefore make more changes in the world.

Hopefully bettering other people's lives as well with, through social justice or, just thinking even I know. Been working with DEI, doing my own work on racism and this experiment piece of it has been the key to that's right. Because if I'm not experimenting and sharing my views around stuff, I'm not making the changes.

That's right.

Sarah: And it's and, start small, come up with a hypothesis do your best to do the research and advance where you can, we're not just going to walk out there and be like, whoa, like here are all my thoughts on racism on the next brown or black or other first, because that's not effective and useful and it can be harmful, but we are going to do a lot of learning.

We being me. And let me just speak about me, do a lot of learning and say, Hey, how can I change this? What could I try? What can I try next? What can I try next? Yeah,

Nancy: I think it's a much needed resource.

Sarah: Thanks. Let me go put it together while they're sleeping in my spare time. During that time I'm not punching a wall. Exactly.

Nancy: Oh, Sarah, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for your time and your being willing to flip the interview, so to speak. And I really appreciate that and I feel so much better. Like I have to say this morning was rough for me. And after this conversation, I feel so much lighter and yeah, it's in there.

Sarah: Oh, I love hearing that. I They don't have the bandwidth to do coaching anymore. I used to do it unofficially because I just get so curious about people and I ask them questions. And so I put everything I knew into this course, it's called get what you want. And it's what we did.

This is this, so if you need a video of me, I'm not going to, if there's no flagellation, there's no I'm not going to whip you into shape. I'm going to ask you kind questions. I'm gonna ask you thoughtful questions. And people have told me that it's oh, I'm allowed to listen to myself. Whoa.

Nancy: That's awesome. I'll give you the link. So tell people where they can find you and we'll put all this stuff in the show notes, but

Sarah: just, yeah. So two places Sarah K peck.com is my personal website. I go by my middle initial because Sarah peck.com wasn't available. And I'm sometimes on Twitter.

I'm more often on Instagram at Sarah Kay. And then I have a company that I run a called startup pregnant. We are changing the name to start up parent later this fall. And it's for working parents and entrepreneurs and people running businesses that are also navigating pregnancy and parenthood and career all at the same time.

So that right now you can find us everywhere is at Serta pregnant. And then we're going to move over to startup parent.com. And we're in the process of getting all those new social handles. But if you type in, start up P probably by no go, I'll probably

Nancy: Beause I know a lot of people are, struggling before, but COVID is, as we were talking about before we hit record and said a whole new level of being a parent and running a business and working and all that stuff.

Sarah: It's so hard for so many people right now. Yeah.

Nancy: But so had their get some resources, get some support from Sarah, check out the, get what you want page.

Sarah: Yeah. www.sarahkpeck.com go to courses and you can find I've got, oh, too many. No, I'm not going to drag myself like that. I've got planned lots of courses. And one of them is called get what you want. And I'll send you the direct link to, for your peoples.

Nancy: Awesome. Awesome. Okay, great.

Thank you, Sarah. Thanks. I admit when I started this interview, I was not expecting the tables to be turned and Sarah to coach me, as we were recording, my monger was screen coming at me. What are you doing? This is your show. You're the expert. And yet I wasn't listening to that voice because underneath it was my biggest fan saying, let's go with this, who knows this might be helpful.

And isn't that what we're doing here. It isn't all about. And when I relaxed into it, I gained a lot and I hope you did too. Being human. It's messy because there's no right way. I know when I start looking for an absolute right way, I need to pull back and loosen the reins a bit. I'm writing a new book, very early stages, but I will be exploring the BFF character.

She doesn't get as much attention as the monger, but she is just as damaging.

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Episode 144: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 2

In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.

There is so much pressure to be the perfect parent. 

My clients tell me all the time that they consistently feel they have to be “perfect” and be all the things to their children. That anxiety infiltrates everything they do—and that anxiety can also impact their children. 

One thing we can do to decrease not only our own anxiety but our kids’ anxiety, too, is by being honest about what we have time for, what our expectations are, and own up when we fail. It’s important not only for our children but also for ourselves. 

This week, I’m continuing my interview with parenting expert and coach, Renee Mattson about anxiety in children and how as parents we can help raise our kids with more resiliency and less anxiety.

If you missed it, I highly recommend listening to part one where Renee shared helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your children and why clear boundaries, empathy and compassion are so important. 

Renee is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. She’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why it’s so important to follow your gut as a parent

• Creative ways to support our kids without accommodating them

• How to solve the ultimate problem: wanting to spend as much time with your children but not having any time

• Why putting your children ahead of your marriage can lead to increased anxiety

Resources mentioned:

• Child In Bloom

• Child In Bloom on Facebook

• Atlantic Article: What Happened to American Childhood?

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Renee: I think we're so busy reading and looking up things and watching our friends, what they're doing with their kids and thinking I have to be just like them and In your little house in your little community, in your little world, making it right for your kid to function so he can leave your house and be a good little citizen and survive this week.

Nancy: I'm continuing my interview with Renee Mattson, parenting expert and coach. We are discussing anxiety and children. If you miss part one, I encourage you to listen to episode 1 43. First one thing Renee talked about in part one was recognizing that we as parents need to talk our kids through the anxiety, but not in the anxious moment, which is what we tend to do.

We need to be helping our kids through anxiety in the moments when all is good. Which is also very true of ourselves. We need to be building skills around anxiety and the times when everything is fine, not just when we're feeling anxious, you're listening to the half year approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. We continue our conversation about anxiety in children and how as parents, we can help raise our kids with more resiliency and less anxiety. In part two, we dive into why it is so important to follow your gut as a parent creative ways to support our kids without accommodating.

How to solve the ultimate problem, a lack of time and wanting to spend as much time with our children, but not having the time to do and putting your children ahead of your marriage and how that can lead to increased anxiety. You shared with me that when your oldest daughter who she's 19?

Renee: 19, now

Nancy: your mom said to you, oh, just throw those damn books away.

I refuse to let you raise this baby in the age of anxiety, the books, can't tell you what you already know what to do. What did she mean by that? And how did that influence your parenting?

Renee: Definitely influenced it. And at the same time, I had a pediatrician that told me almost the exact same words that you can do this.

You could give her ice cream every day. You could never give her ice cream and she's going to be fine. Just follow your gut. You could nurse her for zero days. You could nurse her for four days. For four years. She's gonna be fine. Follow your gut. I was like, oh, I have a gut. I I don't think that anybody really says that to moms.

Like you've got this natural instinct. And you and the natural instinct goes. And that's what my mom, I think was trying to say is just follow the child, follow her, look at her, see her, hear her and get to know her because your nose is in this phone. We didn't have a phone by the way, when I was raising him, he, we didn't have phones.

But what I'm trying to say to moms is your nose is so busy. Phone reading up on all the ways to be a parent that you're not looking at this little person. Who's trying to tell you how to be a parent. Trying to know you. Look, watch me, follow me, see me, look me in the eye, hear me know me. And put that book or phone away.

Now, obviously I'm talking to parents, so then that's like the whole but what I mean by that is you're going to hear things that I say or Nancy says, or. John Roseman says or love and logic says, or whatever parenting book you read says, and you're going to your guts going to go. Ooh, that, that goes with me.

That really helps. That goes with what, how I see the world that helps me to figure out what I, my system's going to be. And my system will not be what my neighbor's system. We are going to parent differently because my husband's different. My background's different. My child's different. So I'll give you an example with Evie.

So they're our daughter, so she's the baby. And I don't tells me that. I'm like, okay, I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to read every single thing that really helped me to like, almost cut the cut. Perfection thing, cause I have a perfectionist, so you don't have to be, I don't know what I'm doing.

You didn't either just don't eat all the books like, and so that helped me because I could have read a thousand bucks on it. So I just kept reading of course, because I can't help it, but I would just start to read only a page, just open up the book and read a little bit and Ooh, I like that idea or that it'll give you an example with Evie.

She was when she was little. And we would go to play group and all of these moms were there and we'd walk in and there were loud and noisy. And Evie was between my legs and under, like under me, like literally hiding, super shy. She's a girl like in her preschool picture had her Lammy over her face in the picture, just no attention.

I do not want you paying attention to me. And I don't want, she's still that way. In college but I was trying to fit her in to what the world was saying. You're supposed to do. You're supposed to go to playgroup and you're supposed to go do this. And I knew it was a teacher. She needs social skills.

So I had to find a balance between what the world is telling me what's wrong with her. I literally had a mom in the group say, does she talk. Does she even talk? I've never heard her talk and think, she talks a little bit time at home and she's here and she's like overwhelmed by you guys talking.

So in that moment I realized, wait a minute, this isn't working for her. Like I got to follow my gut in her gut. And so we started going early. I would always call a little bit early if that's okay. And I told the mom, I had to be honest, I had to name it like every just does better if I get there early.

Settled she's in that when you, when all the kids are walking into the house at one time overload on the social anxiety for the two year old. So we would get early, she'd start playing. And one by one, her friends are coming in and she's feeling way more comfortable. I my stress went down because as soon as her anxiety is up, my anxiety is up and I was like, Ooh, I'm so much nicer when I'm walking in with the whole crowd, because I probably have the same thing she does.

So with that, but I hope that I had to follow my gut and hers. I had to follow the child, not pretend to make her be like everybody else's and do what she needed, not what I needed. Sometimes go. Two. I just wait until they all, if I couldn't get there early, I'd be like, we're just going to go really well and come in once they're all settled.

And then she's the one person walking in. That makes sense. But that's the deal is that you don't have to do what everybody else is doing. Follow your gut and follow the function because you want to have fun and you want to function like Evie needs to function it, social groups. I needed her to do that.

Like I'm not going to keep her home. I

Nancy: Cause that's what was thinking. It would be the accommodating thing.

Renee: . No, we're going to playgroup. We're just going to go to playgroup, which is power. We might get following her guts. No one told me how to do it. I just felt like this isn't working.

And when I got called on it by a friend that said, what's wrong with her, I was like, nothing's wrong with her? But it made me my gut talk louder. I think so. I think so busy reading and looking up things and watching our friends, what they're doing with their kids and thinking I have to be just like them and no in your little house, in your little community, in your little world, making it right for your kid to function so he can leave your house and be a good little citizen and survive.

Nancy: Okay. Now, did you talk to her before you would leave? She was only two. So

Renee: I know she got overwhelmed by the kids' behaviors. Honestly. Now I can look back as later in her life, it'd be like, mommy, they were really loud. They yelled, things like that will be.

When she started to talk, I knew what it was. And she was just like, whoa. Like my kids being kids, we used to say she's more mature than we are. Even as a baby. Oh, she's more mature than her mom and dad are. So I think that might've been what it was that she was just looking at them. Like, why are these children acting like children?

So we might like on the way home and be like, yeah, did you see them scream at the, like I might talk about how it went. How did that made you feel as she got older? Definitely. What I remember being in the car with her and her baby brother Mick later and saying, talking to them after a social situation or before I don't remember drawing.

I did not draw it out for her

Nancy: . Okay. Yeah. Because I like that addition because I would say one thing, and I've talked about this before in the podcast, my mom gave me a ton of strategies for dealing with my anxiety. Like that one, come late or go early. And I still do that to this day, but she never talked to me how she was.

She was only on the strategies. She wasn't on my feelings around it. So she never normalized it for me that this is okay that you need this. It was just like, you're a little goofy. And so here's what you need to do to survive it. She never said those words, it's we're a little socially awkward in this family, and this is what we do to get around that instead of normalizing the anxiety or the feeling, or, that I was okay needing these ways of doing it

Renee: . I think that Toby, my husband and I, we both. Anxiety walking around with mild to moderate anxiety and talk about it ourselves. Maybe we can't help it talk about it. Like the other day I literally said to our whole family because had been together so much, I was like, I'm taking my lunch and I'm going in the other room and eating by myself.

My body's telling me that's what I need right now. So we might openly, we've been doing that for years. So that's just a natural way. We talk around the house. I'll get Peter's our youngest. And he, when he was. Waiting for the school bus was a very anxious time for him. I would say, buddy, I can tell you got your worries.

Get through worries. No big deal. We got to run in place. We got to throw the ball. We got to do something. He would be, you asked me a lot of questions about things like when what's it going to be like riding the best mommy. This is before kindergarten. What's it going to look like? And I'll never forget.

I do have that piece of paper someplace. I literally put a piece of paper down and drew here. And here's the school and here's your friend Peyton's house and here's this guy's house and here's the, and they're going to stop by all the tests and pick them up and they're going to get on the bus. And then there's Mrs.

Blank, your teacher, and she's going to be there and she's going to walk you in and that's oh, okay. Like he, we talked out loud about all this stuff to him. He needed to see it. It like we do have these adult conversations. Plus he had older brothers and sisters are like, oh, Peter, it'll be fine on the bus.

It'll be this deal. This is what's going to happen. And he's I'm not picturing, I don't know what you're talking about. But as soon as I drew that picture, he's oh, I feel safe. I know where I'm going to.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love that piece of paper idea. A, because it helps, they don't have to make eye contact with you.

I think that's brilliant, but also because it's just, it relaxes both of you and you've come into the moment.

Renee: It's not you. It's not you. It's not me. It's just this thing. It's just a scene in a story. I really don't want my kids or the kids I work with to ever feel like it's you, this is who you are.

It's like a thing. You've got a thousand things. That's why I drive that circle with the parents. Let's write out, oh, there's so many cool things about this kid. And you're going to bump against the world a couple of times. Yes.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. So we had But also I've been talking about it. And one thing I wanted to cover was, the time again, we're back to the time crunch.

And then the parents, the working parents and then the kids at daycare, the parents bring them home and they got, or school or whatever. And then there's the three hour, two hour rush to do dinner, homework, get them to bed and everything gets. Messed up because they want to spend as much time with the kid and to have the kid be as happy as possible because they haven't had enough time with them.

What are your thoughts on that?

Renee: So here's the deal when we said you have to be I say this all the time, so maybe I didn't say it, but I didn't feel like I said, you have to be a teacher. You are not just. So you're like, oh yeah, I got the memo. We're teaching now right now. But before this happened and for forever, you're a teacher.

So just you need to make them dinner. Even if you're a working mom and you only had two hours with them at night, you're not going to forget dinner. Most of them don't forget to give them a bath. You're not going to forget to pack their lunch the next day.

You're not going to forget to give them breakfast in the morning or put them to sleep. You cannot forget that you're a teacher and that you have to carve out the most important time to connect connect, connect four. They need your. Eye ear to ear, body to body. I need you to see me. Mommy, hear me, look me in the eye.

And even if I'm 15 years old, I need you to connect with me, even if it's your punched me on the shoulder and go, Hey, dude, I need you to know me. And if you're so busy, too busy to teach, you're too busy. Ah, if you're too busy to connect four times more than you're correcting, you're too busy. If you're, if you are connecting and you're too busy to correct, you're too busy because that's your job.

And I hate to say that maybe I'll get in trouble for saying this, but I don't care what your job is. I don't care if you're a neurosurgeon or a you're going to go. You're Jane Goodall. I don't care. You are going. This is the most important job you'll ever have. And obviously that's why I do this because I care deeply about it.

So it is more important than anything. And if you will, it will bite you. If you don't, it will come back to bite you. If you're doing too much connection, cause you just can't bear to correct him. If you're doing too much correction, because you don't have time to connect with him. If you're doing too much.

Like distancing yourself from them because you're so busy with work. It's just it's or whatever it is that you've got to carve it out, you have to teach him and you have to model and you have to practice. So I have a working mom, a great working moms story. I can tell you if you want me to. Yeah.

Three kids, they have three kids, they have twins. And then an older daughter, twin girls, and an older daughter loved this family. Both working hardworking people, they get, have to get the kids off to daycare in the morning and get them home at night. And it's so stressful. I know they're stressed out, but they have to do it and they are doing it, but they called me and they want me to come to our house and help us.

Cause we're struggling. They're having a hard time over dinner. So they, we met and we walked through the dinner routine. So they were just really open to we, this is us. We have to do. Like my mom and dad, aren't going to come in here and teach them how to do this. Like the grandparents, the babysitter at school is not going to do this.

The daycare is not going to do it. We got to do this. One of the things that they're really struggling with is they got to go to the store on the weekend. Cause they don't have time during the week to go to the store. So they go to target every Sunday. And the three little girls are a total mess, a target, like it's horrible, it's exhausting.

And the mom hates it and dreads it. So we talked it through and I said, so it looks like this is a problem. It's a thing. It's one of those dots on the circle. That's bumping up against the world. You got to get girls that can function at the store. You gotta go to the store. So we said, we need to teach it outside of the moment.

You need to model it and you need to practice how we behave in a store. And then we're going to go pro when we're going to go in there and we're going to. So at night time, play time, connection time after work between dinner and bedtime, let's play grocery store. Let's literally get the little cart and put the baby downs in it and let's talk it through.

Let's walk it through. Let's go through this about how do we behave at the store. Let's draw even rules and put them on the store so we can talk about those. Of how we behave, what are the go behaviors at the store? So they did that at night and then I told them, you need to practice, but you can't take all three of them to practice because they don't know the skills yet.

So you need to take one and your husband can stay at home with the other two at a time. And literally. Being a skill. If you're going to teach them how to tie their shoes, you wouldn't teach them all three to tie their shoes. At the same time, you would take one at a time. So you're going to take them into that store.

And my mom, if she heard me saying this, get whatever, get them in the cart and take them to the stupid store and think about them. If you did it, like she would never say what I'm saying, she'd be like, come on when you're going to do this, but it's a skill they're not mastering it. Put them in a situation where they can, you've taught it to him.

You've modeled it. Now you've got to practice it. And then you've got to praise and specifically praise. Wow. You were mad. You wanted that toy and you started to scream, but you didn't practice the recovery, practice the growth. Then you're going to weave in, bring in the other one, teach her, then teach the other, then bring two at a time.

Then through time, I don't see. But that changed their life. Not because the store changed their life, but they realized when something comes up, we have a tactic. Now we seek outside of the moment when the next one's upset about something, we gotta teach it, set up the rules. Model it, practice it, come up with the consequences, next steps, positive consequences, negative consequences.

And we got to follow through every time

Nancy and the whole time you're talking, like I am, I'm just thinking this is true for adults. This is true for adults. This is, like all of this stuff, anytime you're learning something new. Yeah. Even the stuff I teach my people about self loyalty and it's all about practice and putting yourself in different situations and trying it and patience, and it takes time and, not doing it in the moment where you're super stressed.

Like it's just fascinating. How it, how I think so much of what I do is because parents didn't do it.

Renee: And it goes back to the whole and they might not have done it because of what you asked me first is that they were too nervous to walk through that. You know what I mean?

To feel that feeling in the stores, it's easier to leave the store or it's easier just to give them whatever they want us to be quiet in the store. Rather than to stop and honestly, in the store, what I might've done is just be like, we'll stop. We'll stop. I'll move the car right up to the front cart, up to the front.

We'll just wait. I'm good. I've been five. I don't have to. And so I can just hang out here. Maybe I'll buy myself a coffee and I'll just wait until we're ready to go back. So it's a, maybe a halfway immediate medium between my mom and what they would have done what I taught these other people to do, but yes, cause that's my gut.

How I might parent anyways, I think the time part for those families that work so hard as you have they realized they had to. Out. They had to say, this is that important, as important as soccer practice and piano practice. And they were getting into that we need to put them inside or, science cloud afterschool, and this afterschool and this.

So they were like giving themselves less time. This is way more important than science club, way more important than piano lessons and making sure I'm up to par with all my neighbor's kids. No, you got to get them to go to Tara.

Nancy: Totally. That's 1 0 1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I do think that no, I totally agree with you that, I love how you were like your parents that's your job and this is why you signed up for this and you're teaching them.

And in, I think we're like it, you have to make a choice. And I think that's, so that isn't said enough in our culture, it's always here's a hack and here's how to do it differently. And here's, I could teach you how to do two hours of amazing things in two hours. And you're like, no, I really can't.

You got to make the time. And I think that's, what's really powerful. And one of the reasons I, I actively chose not to have kids is because I knew being a parent would consume me and I didn't want that. And so I think it can fall both ways,

Renee: I just think also too. I really think anybody can do it, so I know you could have, you've been awesome parent.

I'm saying like, literally anybody can do that.

Nancy: Yes. I didn't want to spend my, I selfishly didn't want my aim. One could argue with selfishly or not. I didn't want to put my time into. A parent.

Renee: I'm saying that because I feel like a lot of parents are like, maybe I shouldn't do this.

Maybe I'm not cut out for that. Maybe I should never have been a mom. I don't know what to do. You know what to do? You're the teacher, you know what you like, what you don't like, you got to teach what you don't like a new thing to replace them. That's it. And it's a pretty clear cut system actually, when I go and speak to groups, it's so interesting.

I don't know if it's a bad girl thing or whack, but people who, a lot of men, like what I say, I think, and they like give me a system and an order. Oh, I do this okay, clear cut. Then if you're a systematic woman, you might do the same thing. You want, give me a order to this, put it in a system in a sense.

Nancy: it's very clear which I think is cool. Okay. So my last question to you is I see this all the time in my practice as well is the trend of sacrificing couple times. For the good of the kids. And I know that is something that I really valued growing up, that my parents were together. They went on date nights. They always picked each other over us. I know that, like they were

Renee: I know what you were about to say, “I know that sounds bad. “

Nancy: I was going to, yes. I was going to be like, no, that sounds bad. But they did. And I found comfort in that

Renee: It's not bad.

I think it's so good. What you just said, you felt comfortable, right? You felt safe, like it put border to the family, like that's them first, then us. And the kids just want order. They just want to know the hierarchy. They just want to know what's going on here. Who's in charge. Makes me feel safe that you guys like each other enough to leave us at home with a babysitter or whatever.

We're the same. I grew up, my parents are in your parents are the same age, same generation. I mean they're so that generation over age. So there's 80. Now. I know that grandparents now may not have done that, but our, my parents did the same thing. They were best friends. And I'll tell you what, if they're going on a three-week trip or a one week trip or a weekend trip who cares what the kids thought about it we're going because they knew they hadn't take care of them.

I'm telling you that is so crucial to this. It's crucial. I don't I, the parents I work with that are tagged team. Where they say, ah, you're on, I'm off. Like it's Saturday morning. You've been gone all week at work. I get to go out for the whole day. You take care of the kids, so we don't ever see each other.

So it's you're on, I'm on, you're on, I'm on. The kids get total attention all the time. Bad whammy, if that makes sense, because on, does that make sense? There's all, they're always getting undivided attention. The child gets exactly what they need and want. There is no suffering. There's no but I don't like this situation and I need to survive it.

So there's none of that. Cause give him what he wants. I'm leaving. Make sure he gets what he wants. So that's the first thing. And if there is any downtime, it becomes maybe the only thing that's downtime is the screen, which is another whole conversation. But but then there's the thing of it is that we're in this together.

Like mom and dad make decisions together. We're on the same page, us we're on the same page. A lot of the families I work with do some flip, a lot of flip-flopping. So one parents over here, or one parents over here. Scope of parenting and parenting this way. He's parenting that way. And then they're doing a lot of this, but see us where United front we're right in the middle balanced teaching modeling, practicing.

Now see us going out to dinner so we can talk about it. And we'll see you later, re like us to break away from this. Whether it be, we just go and talk about whatever we want to, or we're actually going to talk about our. And what we want and what we want this to be. And we have a plan in the system and an order we'd like each other enough to do that.

And it's more important than hanging out with them.

Nancy: Yeah. And that then, and also then when it comes to the babysitter thing, because I remember behaving being left with the babysitter. But they walked me through that. Mom and dad would be like, I know you don't like this, but this is what we're doing.

And you have your brothers and let you know, they'll entertain you. And this is how this is going to work there, obviously on record parent, my parents did not coddle me.

Nancy: There was no it's okay. To be scared. It was just a hang onto your head. Get over it. Hang on to your brothers suffer.

You'll be okay. We'll be home. And we'll give you a kiss when we get there and you'll see us in the morning. But it was suffering. I suffered,

Renee: it was okay. I told my husband. Recently, I don't know why it came to me because my parents did go away a lot. They'd travel. I remembered I actually might cry as an adult about it.

That's how much I remember it, but I remember laying in my bed and hearing them zipping up their suitcases at five in the morning and being very sad. Being very sad that they were leaving, but knowing that they will come back, does that like the whole and then as a kid, I may not understand it, but I can now as adult go, they loved each other.

They still love each other more than me. Which is good they're together. And we're not like exactly. I, my own life. And I didn't want to move home after college because they didn't make me feel like I needed to move home after college to make the family. They were complete without.

. So it's so crucial as I'm getting towards the empty nest, I'm like moving in that direction next right soon. It'll be an empty nest. And I thank God Toby night after dinner, every night, since the kids were little. They go do something. I actually don't care what it is. As long as they're not burning the house down in, sometimes they might even ask me a question like, mom, you might've been burned outside and I'll be like, sure, cause I'm not paying attention, but they go do something.

I actually don't care what it is. As long as they're not bothering dad and I, who were sitting at this table talking every night after dinner, that's been happening for years. It's important. Even if it's five minutes because you guys like Peter was little and he didn't like food very well. So we'd, he'd take his three bites of everything and then hop down and go play because we need to talk.

Not that it's perfect, but it's important. Sometimes we're arguing let's be clear, but we weren't, but we were, we needed to do that because I needed it. I was staying home with them in the morning. We, most of the time then I started working, I needed time to just be an adult.

Yes.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. What about the tit for tat

Renee: like keeping score with parents parenting? Yeah. Yeah. How do you get around that? Here's I don't call it. I don't know. I thought you were going to say this. I'm thinking like tap in, tap out. We definitely do that. Like we would say, Hey, tap in. I need you to.

Not doing this by myself. Do like tap in buddy Toby with me. Or tap out, I got this don't button. So that's our tap in or tap out. I don't need you to deal with this right now. I'm dealing with it and you might turn the table on it. So that's one thing. And then the score keeping of, I did this, you need to do that.

Is that what you mean?

Nancy: Like I've been with them all weekend. I've been with them all week. It's your turn. Or I went golfing last weekend. So I get to you and golfing last weekend. So I get to go to the school.

Renee: I know that's how, yeah, I think that's, I think that you do need your score captures a little bit.

I understand that score keeping, but I think that part of the score keeping has to be how much time do we spend together with these kids? If that, if you're doing so much, score-keeping that you're never together. That's a problem. I know that he, or she might say, I'm going out with my friends. I have been with them.

I need a break and you don't keep that kind of a score. You might get them back. Like someone might feel like I am getting the short end of the stick here and I need some time or, and also it's a call-out that I'm overwhelmed. I'm right. So I don't, I think you might need to keep some tally if you need to, but the tally has to include you guys doing it together.

And I think you'll feel better about doing it apart. If you do some of it together. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. I always say, because I always want them to, I always want it to be like, instead of here's my score, I've been, you've been golfing the past five Sunday, so I get my own Sunday to be like, I'm overwhelmed on Sundays.

Can you help out? Not necessarily because of I've kept score, but because I'm coming to you and sharing what's really happening. And I think. Yeah, we just get so stuck in the score-keeping the justifying, why it's okay. That I need a break instead of just being like, I need a break because I said so, calling out to you

Renee: . Yes that's what I'm trying to help parents too. Sorry, this kind of reminds me of that when you've been with the kids all day and you're entering back in. Two things, oh, come back to another thing with that, the whole enter back in. But when you're entering back in to do positive gossip on purpose instead of negative.

So just to remind yourself, the good things really did happen. Even if he did knock his brothers total block thing down and scream in his face, he did it for 10 good things. And then he happened to do that. So in front of the kids, positive gossip, or if you're calling him and he's out at the golf course, you say, I should tell you some of the awesome things he did today.

It helps you remember that there were really were some good things. And then you won't like dwell on the negative. One thing he did, that was horrible. A lot of families will say like he does all this annoying behavior and I'll say about how many times a day does he do that? They're like two.

Then tell me about the rest of the day is ruling your life. You just written and just paid me to come to your house for two times a day. That really you should pay for two times a day. If you want that to go away. I'm just saying don't dwell on the negative as much because there's some really great things.

Yeah. So that helps with the shift of it. Wasn't the worst day. There was some really bad things that happened. Clearly. I hated some of this stuff, but he's doing pretty good in some other things. So just being more aware of the positive. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And then this is just for parents in terms of kids' anxiety at transitions.

There are there actually, there's a book and it's called the big disconnect and it's by, I can remember her name, but anyways, she the big disconnect. And she talks about that at transitions, we need to add transitions. We need to make sure we don't are not on our phones, that we are looking each other in the eye, especially children.

So when you're picking them up, dropping them off, you just came in, just tag teamed with your husband and you're taking over and he's no phone. They need to see you.

Nancy: we'll put all these books in the show notes that you referenced.

That would be great. Send them to me and I'll link them up in the show notes. So that would be cool. Okay. Renee, we covered a lot of this, man. I know there's a ton more to cover in childbearing, but how can people find out more about you and your services and what you are right.

Renee: Sure. So it's child in balloon child in bloom.com is my website.

And if you go there, you'll see, I do things for schools, churches, businesses, and individual families. So schools call me to train their teachers and come in and observe behaviors in the school and also run parenting programs through the school or PTO churches, call me to do the same kind of thing.

They might have me work one-on-one with a family that's really in need. They might have me do. Programs for parents and programs for teachers. And then businesses do this for through their human resource department. Will have me come and do things like that just to provide, work-life balance programs.

And then Obviously my big, my job really is to go into families homes and coach them, sit with them across the table. Go through this with their family and mind solve problem solve. So we do that. I also do small groups. I'm going to run a, some small groups this summer for like age appropriate, small groups.

Yeah. Parents of toddlers, parents of teenagers. So you can start to see those on my website. I have a newsletter that goes out every month. If you email me, I'll put you on it. Okay. And it's Renee, R E N e@childandbloom.com

Renee: So I love that you did this and Nancy, I just have it so much. Like I hope it's something that helps them, give them an idea. I always say to parents is one thing. Maybe just choose one thing you might do. Yeah.

Nancy: Thank you. Thank you so much for making this so clear and giving great examples and is awesome. Totally awesome. There is so much pressure to be the perfect parent. I hear it all the time from my clients, the pressure to be perfect and be all things to our children. Hopefully this conversation gave you some fresh ideas on how to decrease, not only your anxiety, but your children's.

One of my big takeaways was being honest with ourselves and our children. We tend to convince ourselves we can do all the things and have time for everything when there are only 24 hours in a day. So being honest about what we have time for, what our expectations are and owning when we fail is so important, not just for our children, but ourselves.

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Episode 143: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 1

In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.

In these unprecedented times…

In these uncertain times…

Now more than ever…

UGH. 

The language of 2020 is getting old. 

But it’s getting old because we are running out of words to describe the anxiety, overwhelm, fear, and uncertainty that we are living through right now in July of 2020. 

It’s not just anxiety-provoking for us as adults but also for the next generation. Statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.  

A few months ago, one of my clients asked if I’d seen the Atlantic article about childhood anxiety—they were convinced that they were totally messing up their kids! 

Of course, I read the article and it inspired me to reach out to parenting expert (and childhood friend of mine!) Renee Mattson. She is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. Renee’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. I wanted to find out her thoughts on how we’re impacting our kids and how we can better parent them through these anxious times. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids

• Why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important

• How a lack of time has made over accommodating an even bigger problem and how to approach it

• The idea that our children are craving an adult in the room and too often we treat them like mini-adults

Resources mentioned:

• Child In Bloom

• Child In Bloom on Facebook

• Book: The Explosive Child: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children by Ross Green

• Book: The Happiest Toddler on the Block: How to Eliminate Tantrums and Raise a Patient, Respectful, and Cooperative One- to Four-Year-Old by Harvey Karp

• Book: The Soul of Discipline: The Simplicity Parenting Approach to Warm, Firm, and Calm Guidance- From Toddlers to Teens by Kim John Payne

• The Atlantic Article What Happened to American Childhood?

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Renee: And a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to tie it, spend time tying his shoes more.

We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging.

Nancy: In these unprecedented times in these uncertain times now, more than ever the language of 2020, it's getting a bit old, but it's getting old because we're running out of words to describe the anxiety.

Fear and uncertainty we are living through right now in July of 2020. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. It's not just anxiety provoking for us as adults, but also for the next generation, our children, grandchildren, nieces, and nephews statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.

A few months ago. A client of mine Vox me to say, “did you see the latest Atlantic magazine and the article about childhood anxiety? So depressing. I am totally messing up my kids.“ Of course, I immediately went to find the article, which I will link to in the show notes. It is entitled what happened to American childhood, too many kids show worrying signs of fragility from a very young age.

After reading the article, I was inspired to reach out to a childhood friend of mine and parenting expert, Renee Mattson, to get her thoughts on the article and how we can better parent our children through these anxious times. Renee Mattson is the owner and founder of child and bloom a coaching business for parents and teachers.

She is a mother of three licensed intervention specialists for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach adjunct faculty member at Xavier university and trainer and coach for educational professional develop. In this episode, Renee and I dive into the article, which discusses two concepts, one parents who have anxiety pass it along to their kids.

And two, one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety. And this makes it worse. Renee tells us her perspective on this idea and helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids. How a lack of time has made this over accommodating, even bigger and more of a problem, and how to approach that.

The idea that our children are craving and adult in the room. And too often, we treat them like mini adults and why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important. I am so excited to have Renee Mattson here from child and bloom. And the reason I wanted to bring Renee on is a client of mine brought to me the, an article that was in the Atlantic about called childhood and an anxious age.

And I read the article. And it talks a lot about anxiety in kids. And I thought I am going to bring in my friend and expert in parenting, Renee Mattson. So Renee, thanks for being here.

Renee: Wow. I'm so glad you even thought to think, to call me. That was so great. And I read the same article and my husband actually just sent it to me after you.

Nancy: Thank you. That's awesome. Meant to be.

So it's a long article and it's pretty depressing at the beginning that the statistics are not positive about how anxiety is coming around. So two things that really stuck out to me in this article. Parents who have anxiety tend to pass it along to their kids.

And one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety they do. And that just makes it worse. Do you agree? How do you see this showing up with your clients?

Renee: I definitely agree. And I agree because I see it. I think about it in terms of any skill.

So if you think of dealing with anxiety as a skill, I'm a teacher. So I teach teachers and I teach parents how to teach their children. And when I'm working with children, I'm always thinking about, I need to teach model and practice this lagging skill. So if I were to think about it in a situation where a parent's feeling anxiety and then their child might be going through a little moment, that's bringing some kind of anxiety or suffering.

If I don't put them in the situation, I don't give them a chance to suffer through it and grow if that makes sense. So I'm going to give you like an example. I might give some of my clients. I think about it in terms of Velcro versus tie shoe. So if you have a little guy who doesn't know how to tie his shoes and you need to think about, eventually I'm going to have to teach him.

I could put them in Velcro the rest of his life, but we know if he's wearing Velcro when he's 12. So eventually I'm going to have to pause and teach him. And when I teach him, it's going to be, there's going to be some suffering through that. Discomfort and time and anger and frustration, but I have to do it so he can push through to the next level, same thing with math.

Like I could just give him this flashcards or give them a multiplication chart. And then he will never have to learn his math facts, but I actually have to spend time teaching him. That same thing with social skills. And I also think the same thing with coping skills and a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more, just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to spend time tying his shoes more. We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging skill.

And actually Ross Green calls it lagging skills. He wrote the Explosive Child and I love that he calls it that because I think it's a great word for it

Nancy: . You’re putting anxiety is a lagging, Coping with anxiety could be a lagging skill?

Renee: Yeah. Okay. It might be. I'm not really good at it right now. And I need to be put into situations where I can figure it out now. In the middle of that, I always call it the fire pit in the middle of the anxiety in the middle of tying shoes that's a really bad zone to be teaching him how to tie his shoes.

If I was going to teach him how to tie his shoes or get through tying his shoes, I got to do that before sometime when he's chill and I am chill. not, when I'm trying to get out the door, that's a bad zone. If I'm going to try to teach my child about how to get through their anxiety or their worries, I'm going to have to teach him over here, like before or after? Not in the anxious moment, that's a really bad zone to teach. So my teaching has to come at different times.

Nancy: Got it. It could also be that a child has a lagging skill that ends up causing anxiety. So they might have a lagging skill of social interaction, or how to order at a restaurant to say, , And then they don't know how to do that enough because their parents always do it for them.

Then it builds anxiety for them when they get there.

Renee: For sure. And then the parents continue to accommodate. And would you say, you know what? You didn't sleep in our bed? Cause I know you're having a hard time sleeping at night. Or you can just, we're just not going to go out to eat. We don't go out to eat.

I actually had a mom who said to me, we don't go to the zoo. We don't go to Kings island. We don't go places because he doesn't know he doesn't handle those situations very well. As someone who's trying to coach the parent along is, oh no, we're going to go. We need to go. But but we teach before we go and then we need to walk through it and then have a little plan that goes with it.

Nancy: Same as you would with an adult who was nervous about whatever

Renee: Yeah. Yeah, I know it brings up the mom's anxiety cause maybe she has her own and she's oh, this is making me anxious, but we know that the more I walk through it and you walk through it, I being the child, I walked through it and I recover your fine tuning, my recovery skills.

I need to just, I need to refine it. I need to refine the skill, whether it's tying shoes or getting along with my sibling or understanding that I'm feeling a certain way and I need to do something that's going to help me reboot and recover a little

Nancy: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Part of what they're saying in this article, with the accommodating is that the parents take away any suffering and you're saying suffering is key.

Renee: I know, in fact, when I give my talk about different types of parenting styles do you want me to go ahead and tell you what I might say?

So the parenting styles that I would describe and you've heard them before, but I put them in my own words, which would be, you've got your bossy or strict. I actually even had a young teacher I was working with really recently just said, oh, I don't like the word strict.

So she does definitely doesn't want to be a strict parent or a strict teacher. So you've got that style. That's going to be the, my way or the highway. We're not negotiating no discussion. It is what it is. Suck it up parent. And then you've got, and I would call this on the other side, you've got the polite parent permissive or polite parent.

And by the way, the bossy parents going to be, because I said so, which you've heard that before I'm sure John Rosemond is one of the parenting experts that would say, because I'd BISS because I said so.

Nancy: that, that's the reason, that's good enough

Renee: that’s enough for the bossy instruct parent.

Because I said so, and then the other side of that would be the polite or permissive. And I say polite because it's usually suggesting would you like to get in the grocery cart? Which is a suggestion and usually they're bent down, like you're in charge or would you like to do this? Would you like to put your coat on?

Would you like to come outside? And so it's lots of asking and suggesting they're being very polite. They might say it's time to eat dinner. Okay? And they'll tack on a little, okay. At the end. Is that okay? And sometimes get a no out of that. So that's that polite permissive zone.

There's a lots of negotiation, lots of discussion and lots of connection.

Nancy: And then is there a parenting like middle guru who wants you to go there?

Renee: I would say that kind of goes with more of the relationship building. I'm not going to name a name of the person, but It's all about the relationship. And I am not saying that it's not about the relationship because I'd like to have you meet right in the middle of this, instead of because I said so. Because you said which is what I would call permissive. I'm going to go into the middle zone, which I think most people would agree if they could really think about that.

You got to be in the middle of it. But I also need you to lean towards, because I said so okay. because you're the adult in the room. We've been there, done that. And you are the one who has, to make the rules. If that makes sense, because if I'm three years old and I realized I'm in charge, that makes me very happy.

It makes me very anxious. So in the middle zone it's because I said so, but I put L with it BLISS because you love them. So instead of, because I said, because you love them enough to connect connect, connect, connect and I usually say connect four time. So you do have to be polite and nice to them sometimes, but you have to connect to them.

You have to connect four times so that you can correct the problem with the permissive imply they really struggle with correcting.

Nancy: So what does connecting look like?

Renee: Connecting looks like I see you. Okay. I see you. I hear you. I know you. I like you. I actually really like you and I like to hang out with you and I want to be with you.

Let's do something together. I see what you need. I can feel what you feel. So it's I see you. I hear you. I feel you. I know you and I like you. So that's really important, but just as important, if not more is the correction side of this, because you have to decide what the rules are.

Nancy: , For the record, not a parent here. What about the common practice I had seen. was set a timer, like we're going to leave in to give them advanced warning. We're going to leave in two minutes and I'll set a timer for two minutes. where does that lie?

Renee:

Okay. That happens a lot, obviously. And I usually say parents well, first of all, kids don't really have a very good sense of time. So using time, isn't going to be your friend. That's not. That's not going to be so great, but kids are usually more concrete. So you're going to say, are you going to, and they want some pounds, kids want power.

So if you tell me two minutes, I'm like, no, I don't want to leave in two minutes. Or I want to have some control in this. You, as the parent tried to set the rules, remember you are the author of the rules. So that's that because I said, so we are leaving. We are going to leave. And when we leave, we're going to go do this next thing that we want to do or need to do.

So we see the progression. We are leaving. I wonder if we should leave in one minute or two minutes, if you want to use time, literally giving them some choice within the rule box. And this is better than time should we go down the slide 10 times or two times?

I want to go down 10. That's fine. Let's go down 10 times and then we are leaving. So I gave you a window of control. I hear you. You love the slide. I see. You're having fun. I know you, we got to go I'm in the author of the rules. We're not going to do it a hundred more times just because you want to, when you're too sad to leave, everybody's sad to leave.

In fact, we might even say the guy who wrote the Happiest toddler on the block, and I wish I could remember his name. He always says, you need to say I see you're sad, sad, sad, sad. You're mad, mad, mad,. And it's just for toddler, you would say that, but I might even say that with an 11 year old, like I see you.

You're sad. Dude. You're really sad. I'm sad too. It's fun. This is awesome. Don't forget. We want to come back and do this again, but we got to go. So what do you want to do now? You choose your items. You want to go down two times or 10 times if he says I'm not going down. I don't. I want to go down 12.

Okay. Then I guess I'll choose 10. Because we're going. Because I said between two and 10. Okay. He says neither I'm going down seven! Fine, let's go. That's right. Sometimes I'll have meet with some parents that are really like, want to be in control. They'll say I said two or 10, right? Like we're glad it's in the middle.

, why are you starting a second layer battle here?

. I think it's usually about control for parents. They just think I should be in control. I should be in charge. And I said, so that's that whole, because I said so, and with the parenting, the most anxiety ridden parenting thing that you can do for the child is that you try to be permissive and polite and you're at the grocery store and you're asking him to get in the cart. Would you like to get in the cart? And he doesn't want to get in the cart and, he needs to be in the cart and you're not listening to your gut enough to say this kid needs to be in a cart.

And then you flip over and flip out into the because I said mode. You are trying to be all permissive and polite and would you want to, and please get in and then you lose your mind and you've jumped way over here. And what if you were just in the middle, which is clear, cut. Matter of fact, I love you.

You love me in the cart. Let's go hop in. 1 2, 3. Oh, I see you just like a rocket ship in the cart. Let's go very confident and clear about it. Like it's no big deal. We're going to get in the cart and go. Yeah, that's the safe zone. And I'm going to tell you, that's why your kids feel really safe with their teachers at school.

Because the very best teachers I work with are right there. They're loving and clear

Nancy: Which is any good boundaries. The thing is, I will say the majority of my clients who have a lot of anxiety come from homes where they had to do a lot of mind reading, where they had to figure out what the rules were because their parents weren't telling them either because of addiction or they just didn't care or, whatever, or they're busy with their own stuff.

Or they were, our generation doesn't have a lot of super permissive parents. But I, so I could see why it's so high, because now we're getting into the permissive parenting and that's unknowingly you're putting your three-year-old in charge, causing them to have anxiety.

Like they have to do more mind reading to figure out what's the right answer here.

Renee: And there's a book called the soul of discipline from Kim, John Payne. I'm actually doing a book club on it at the end of the month in May. And I love it. He talks about it children are pinging like a submarine. Like just tell me where's the boundary.

Tell me I got to find my way of pinging through the water, like a submarine, but I'm trying to figure this out here. What can I do? What's the rule today? I thought the rule was this and I'm in charge of this. And that is very scary. But at school, oh, I know that. We stand in a line. We walked down the hall.

I sit here. Oh no, they'll tell you the rules. They'll say, oh no, we have to do it this way. And that makes me feel safe. And so they're begging for mom and dad just to tell him the go to behaviors. What I taught, tell me the go behavior. Mommy. Tell me exactly what I need to do. And start focusing on what I don't need to do.

Stop it, quit it don't, if you put all your energy in the stop behaviors and you never teach the go behaviors, the child is confused. But if you clearly talk about this as what we can do, this is what we do. This is how we function and we teach it and we model it and we practice it and you set them out to go do it.

Then I feel success because even if I made a little bit of success, You named it. That's who I am. I'm the guy who survived. I'm the guy who recovered. I'm the guy who I was really sad and upset, but I made it through. And then I have that build self-confidence. And I think that parents who are trying to get their kids to be in charge and let them make all those choices and have agency, like they get to, I get to be in charge.

They are thinking they're doing it for self-esteem and it's right. Because this is my experience. It's just my experience. I think they're, they are watching the fact that it's just scary for kids. But if I give you a boundaries and you get choices within the boundaries, it feels so safe.

And then I feel confident that I can do this and I can function. I have a really good day. That

Nancy: makes a lot of sense. So how did you get into this work?

Renee: So I'm a teacher for, so first of all, I babysat forever. I, that was what I did. 15 year old. And then I nannied all through college while I was studying to be a teacher.

I was a regular ed teacher, and then I decided I really loved to go into the regular ed classroom and zero in on, why does this guy learn differently? And what's he doing that makes his day different. And then I started to look at behaviors and why is this guy behaving differently? He is what's going on with him.

So that kind of, I became a special educator and I worked in special education with behavior and learning. In public schools in Ohio. And then I did I stayed home with my own children and I have three kids. I have a college student, I have a high schooler and I have a sixth grader. And while I was staying home with him, especially in the beginning, I was putting these things to use going, oh, the same thing I did in my classroom, I taught severe behaviors.

And one of the classrooms that I worked with kids with the most severe behaviors you could ever imagine. And I, when I was working with them, I was always telling them in, when I first got the job, I was young and naive and telling them to stop it, quit kids who that kid cuss me out or whatever my aide in the classroom said, Renee, you're never catching them being good.

And you never finding when they recovered oh, you're right. I'm so busy telling him this guy, he's not doing it right. That I never looked over here at these guys who were actually functioning or the one time we'll do it. So it helped me to really start to focus on the functioning behaviors.

Then I started teaching teachers at Xavier university. And when I did that, they asked if one of us would, might want to be a parent coach or get trained in it because we have to coach our special ed ma moms and dads who have children with special needs on how we do things at school. Why don't we coach you at home?

How to do that. And then we're doing this. There we go. So 2012 started doing this independently.

Nancy: Okay. And that's when Child in bloom came around?

Renee: Yes! And I still teach teachers Xavier. So still teach a little bit.

Nancy: So thanks want to give people a little hint of your background there. One reason the article gave for why parents accommodate and I know this is so true is lack of time and the amazing thing. I was blown away in the article by how parents are accommodating from too, because the kids, I didn't want to be alone to not let the kids didn't want to go upstairs by himself. So the parents would constantly go upstairs and they were just accommodating all their fears I guess I would say. And cause it's easier for them to accommodate rather than to let them give the time for the kid to figure it out. So I know that's a real problem. How do you see that playing out? And do you have any tips for changing that?

Renee: So I definitely see it playing out and I know that a lot of parents are really stressed on time. A lot of them. That's huge. And so if they're trying to get out the door in the morning, they just don't have time to be dealing with the behavior.

Just give him what he wants. So he doesn't cry. Make him happy, cut the sandwich and whatever shape he needs it in. And so we do ask what's accommodating, like he has to have a sandwich cut. This, the carrot has to be on the right-hand side. He has to have a juice.

It's still two thirds, not one half filled, like literally that's real. That's definitely happening. And so yeah, it goes to grandma's house and grandma's no, I'm not cutting your sandwich Like everybody else eats it and he's going to have an anxiety meltdown. So what would be best is if when you note, I like.

You're thinking of yourself as you're not just a parent, you're a teacher and good teachers. When they see their kids in process, they note, they take note like, Ooh, that's something I got to teach. This is something that is working for him. So instead of getting like dramatic about it in the moment, think this is a teachable moment.

And I don't teach in the moment I teach later. So instead of thinking bad kid, bad behavior, bad situation. Ha we have a problem. I usually draw a circle for parents and I say, let's put all the awesome things about your child in that circle. Then let's draw a really tight square around the circle and wherever the circle bumps up against the square is where your child's bumps up against the world.

And so you might want to cut that in within whatever perfect shape, but he's going to bump up against the world and they're not going to have that cookie cutter. Shape there it's there. And so that's a function problem. And so it's just a little note to self. We got to work on that. So whatever that little, wherever it bumps up against the square that's a teaching I got to teach and I got a model.

And when I say teach, I usually say, teach outside of the moment and teach with 5 words at a time. So five words and really awkward pause that keeps your anxiety down and it keeps their processing up. So less words. So in outside of the moment, when I started to teach, I might say, so you love to have sandwiches cut in fancy shapes.

I do too, but grandma doesn't have those shapes. Let's draw it out. Let's draw our house. In grandma's house. So we teach outside of the moment we teach with less words, we teach with more pictures. I'm literally going to draw it out. Here's our house. Here's grandma's house. What's the difference? What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house?

What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house at six words, two minutes. What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house? We don't have anything. So that's like really good teachers know how to talk that way. And the compassion study down. It's like we're back in kindergarten and we all feel so safe.

What a mom might do. Cause she's getting anxious about you can't do this from your grandma's house, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, the kid only heard the first three to five calm words. You said she, they missed the paragraph. So if you find yourself talking in paragraphs three to five words with a very weird and awkward, purposeful, And pictures.

Now you're going to say, you're not going to draw a picture for a 13 year old.. You're going to draw picture for a 13 year old and you going to put two, a piece of paper between you at least, and paper as a buffer to be like, Hey, look, let's draw this out. Let me just show this to you. It doesn't have to be stick figures.

Like you might do it with your little one, but it would be like, let me chart this for you. Let me show you when you choose this you also choose this and this and this. So you choose to cheat on your test you also choose to go to the principal and tell them this. And you also do this, and I guess you choose this, but if you choose this, you choose to get the grade you get, and we love you anyway. How about that?

And we love you anyway, on the top one, two. How about that? So I might literally draw that out like a chart, or I might like, even with my college students say, Hey, you could take a piece of paper and you draw out what you want. I'll draw out what I want. Come back with their paper and we'll talk about this.

The paper becomes a buffer, so you don't have to look me in the eye.

Nancy: Oh, that makes a ton of sense.

Renee: I had to do that with my severe behavior kids because they never wanted to look me in the eye. So it's where it comes from, but it works all ages. So teach outside of the moment, teach with less words, teach with more pictures, and then you have to put them in the situation, like you said earlier, where they have to practice.

You got to take them to their friend's house so you can practice the social skill. They just learned, you got to go to grandmas and practice what we learned. We learned how we're going to respond when she gives us sandwiches that cut like a Teddy bear. What are we going to do? something like that

Nancy: . So do you go through it right before you go to grandma's?

Renee: Yeah. I probably would.

Let's see what we're going to do and let's see if you can do it. And we're going to probably talk to grandma about it too, and say, Hey, we've got a new thing here and maybe, or not, if you can't talk to it, if it's your mother-in-law, you may not be able to talk to her about that.

But they're going to have to talk it through. Yeah, definitely. And we're going to come out on the other side with we made a little bit of progress. You were mad and you screamed and you threw the carrot across the floor, but you came back and you join the dinner table. Even if you didn't do that you came with her like, so you're going to find the smallest, tiny bits of progress.

And know that's who you are. You are a survivor.

Nancy: That's I like that. So what about, and I know a big problem for parents is the co-sleeping. And I know there's a lot of like hardcore fans of co-sleeping, there's a lot of written about the family bed and, I know nothing about parenting, but I know about the family bed.

Tell me like, and as I know, some parents like that, even as I have as clients that are like, they're trying to break that, how do you do that, cause that is a major stressor. A because the kid gets it so upset, because the parent wants to feel needed by comforting, comforting the kid and being there for the kid.

Like we still joke. I can remember walking into my dad, my parents bedroom. And you always went to my dad. He was the one that woke up and I would stay, I can envision myself standing there and trying to wake him up. And my dad was like this big burly man. Jump up out of bed, he'd be like,” What’s going on?!” and I would be like, I had a nightmare and I still wanted to crawl into bed with him.

That was the end game that I wanted, but it would be like, okay, we got to get a drink of water. We got to go to the bathroom. And he would go walk with me to my bathroom while I did that. And then he would tuck me in and that would be it like, yeah, there might be a, sorry, you had a nightmare, but there was no like come into bed or sleep on the floor next to me, it was, you go this is our room.

And that is your room. And, neither shall the two meet.

Renee: if he may have done that sometimes. And sometimes didn't do it. You would have been more confused. At least you knew the boundary. That's what my gut says. Which I know a lot of people will disagree with it, but I feel like at least you felt safe.

And I guess I know now if he could cuddle with you and outside of the moment, like right then might not have been the best time to cuddle with you. It might've been during the day to recap it a little like how that happened last night, that's a thing it's real. You felt that way. So what are we going to do to make us feel safe?

Or how could we even meet in the middle on that? But we can't have all that conversation at nighttime. Night time is the worst time to have a big conversation. So I wouldn't ever suggest that you do that, but to be very confident and I'm confident in you, you're confident in me. I'll walk you to your bed.

I'll make you feel safe. What light should we turn on tonight? We'll talk about it in the morning, You're safe. You're okay. And you can handle it, which are the three words that you would use with any traumatized kid you're safe you’re ok, and we can handle this. We can do this, but not to downplay that they're upset, but I hear you, it sounds like you're upset.

We need to go to bed and what can I do for you right here? But if to go back to the move, what I see is a lot of, this is where it comes from with the bed. When you were nursing a baby you're being told feed on demand. Feed on demand and you have to feed on demand.

If you're nursing, you got to feed when that baby is hungry, even if it's not your schedule, you feed on demand. And I love it. I think that's exactly what you need to do.. No doubt about it. I think it's a slippery slope to everything on demand.

Because if we don't stop there with the feed on demand, we could easily slip into he really just wants to sleep in our bed with us every night. He really wants to go to school in his pajamas. That's what he wants. He really wants to wear his rain boots and princess costume to the store to church or whatever.

But he really wants to do this and the really wants turn into, he was ruling all the things because we really don't want him to suffer. And when he can learn, oh, I see that you love to wear your princess costume with your rain boots. I love that you love that. This is where we can do this.

Let's make a zone where we do this. And then this is the zone where we don't doesn't mean we don't love it still. It's just not where we do it. So let's, I hear you. I see you. I know what you want and I know what you love, and I want to build it into our life, but this is not where we're going to do it.

Cause I'm the boss. If that makes sense. All right. I'm in charge. I have to be in, I have to be in charge of that. Now. Some people will disagree obviously, and that's fine, but I think, but I really, truly believe you just have to be careful on the slippery slope of everything onto me.

Nancy: That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. So what do you do when your kid is sick? Cause in the article I appreciated, it said the parents have become the comforter instead of the Teddy bear. I thought that was such a great line.

Renee: Yeah, good. Keep going wherever you go with that.

Nancy: So I, yeah, if your kid is really upset and it's, then your anxiety is increasing as you're hearing them being upset, how do you handle it?

Renee: The first time it happens I think you really do need to be there for them. You need to just sit in it with them. Let's just sit here in it. And I really am fine with kids sitting in it, but we're just going to sit here. And I might have can sit on my lap in this. I might let you give you this big squeezy hug in this. I might, but then I also am in, remember I'm thinking teachable moment here. I got to teach. I'm going to have to teach my teacher hats coming on. Cause this is a moment. It's just a moment. It's just a behavior. It's just a situation. It's not who he is. It's not going to be who he is 20 years from now when we go there very quickly.

Oh, he doesn't like school. He'll never like school. If I go into the whole. And make this a story. The story will repeat if I just sit in it and not, don't make a lot of language around it, not a lot of emotion around it and just be, I'll be better. Everybody will be a little better off. And I teach later when everybody's calmed down.

I call that the fire pit, when you're in the fire pit, there's you just need to keep people safe and calm and function. Less words, way less words. So I see, like parents will end that fire pit be like, oh, why do you feel this way? Get rid of why? Just take Why out of your mind in that zone.

Like, why are you feeling this way? What's your problem? What were you thinking? None of those three questions are gone. Be a detective, not a psycho analyzer. Like we're going to detect this. Who, what, when. What before, what, after what know, like those kind of fact-finding questions to bring us back down to where, when, how, where are we right now?

But not why here, because why we can deal with later. If we get into the why here, there's always a really good reason to get out of your bed and come to mind. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Nancy: Can you say what happened?

Renee: Oh, did you hear a sound? Did you hear a sound? Oh, I think too.

Let's look out the window. What, where, when, how many times, like we're fact finding, we're not, oh my gosh. Are you nervous? Why do you want to sleep with mommy? And here's the thing you're in the middle of sleeping. So you're less likely to be functioning yourself very well. And I will tell you this really quickly when it comes to sleep issues, because people have me come to their house a lot and help them like super nanny style.

When I come to the house, they asked me to come to their house and I do, and they say, I want you to come and sit with us through bedtime. I'll say that's fine. I definitely will do that. I will come to your house at night time. I'll sit on your master bed and wait for him to get back in there. And we will go through the whole process of getting into staying in his room and all of that, but we're not going to do that until we've done it during the day because behaviors usually reflect daytime, need daytime, need for boundary, daytime, need for systems daytime need for teaching.

And the data is usually if you're having issues at night time, you also have some issues during the day and all of the dates, the nighttime ones first is a challenge when we haven't really put boundaries in order and system and teaching during the day. So let's work on when we have energy first and then and sometimes those nighttime behaviors go away because they start to feel safe with the rules and boundaries during the day, and set the rules and the boundary at night flow a little bit better.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. But I'd like to how you say, cause I, even as adults, I would, I hate when people say why like it, just that, that gets you into justifying. Why you know that it's okay to feel that way. Like it's putting it on the person to justify and.

But in a sense, it's getting them all hopped up. What's going on? Why are you feeling this way, blah, instead of bringing this, the calming the situation.

Renee: Yeah. It's just the facts. It's just, it is what it is. Not that it's bad or good. It's just like a detective. I don't, I always say to my parents that I work with no detectives walking into a crime scene saying, why did you rob the bank?

You're not ever going to say that because there's a really good reason to rob a bank. And so I didn't have any money in my bank account. I needed some money oh no, it's going to be a who, what, when, where, what happened first? What happened second? Are we safe? Are we okay? Can we handle, it's going to be very factual.

My husband would say that Renee, that means you're very cold, not cold. I'm just clear. I like you, you like me, the behavior stinks. Let's get rid of it. Like it's just behavior. It's just a thing. It has nothing to do with how much I love you or how much you love me, but I can't get emotional about it.

You got to cut loose from the emotions.

Nancy: Yeah. because like I had a friend of mine actually, who, whose daughter was really nervous. They had lost a couple, a couple of extended relatives had died.. And so the daughter was really afraid. She was going to lose mom and dad, didn't want them to leave.

And it was this whole big thing. And so they were doing like all this anxiety stuff, like tapping and visualizing it on a cloud and. All this stuff to help her. And I said, have you ever said to her? And she was like 10 at the time. And I said in that eight to 10, and I said, have you ever said to her, what would it be like if mommy and daddy, if something happened to us, nd she was like, oh my gosh, no.

Because then that's really addressing it. But that's what she's nervous about. Let's put that out on the table and talk about with, what that feels like, rather than trying to hide it with tapping and all this other stuff.

Renee:

Let's just put it on the table. It doesn't mean it's true. So actually I think what a lot of the families that when I started working with us, I actually started working. Because I felt like I saw a lot of families that were like, not even able to say that a behavior issue. Say that an anxiety moment exists.

Oh no. If I say it, then that means I don't love him. If I say his behavior is annoying, if I see his behaviors obnoxious, if I say his behavior is anything then I don't love him. But I'm just like, just say it, just put it on your cheek. What are you worried about? That's what you were saying with anxiety.

What is it? If we can name it, then it's a thing. And then I can be like, okay, that's a thing that exists. And now I need to think about it as to what are the opposites of those things? What are the things I can control, I guess maybe what's the go behaviors. Would I say stop behaviors over here? That would be hurting or fussing or disrespect kind of behaviors.

And then the go behaviors are those, what's the next steps? What are the things I can do to function a little bit better through this? I'm still going to feel, but what am I going to do differently? And those are the good behaviors that have to be taught modeling.

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I think that then, because for that example I gave of, what, if my parents die, she's already thinking that.

Yeah. So anytime the parents are like, let's not go there. Then she's oh, then she doesn't trust herself. Because it's coming up for her. That's a real thing, but her parents are constantly dismissing it from her too, to go into tapping or to avoid it. And then she doesn't learn how to soothe when that comes up, because I, this is how I feel, but I don't need to get wrapped up in that.

That's not a whole huge big thing. And now I just need to know how I'm going to react and choose my go behavior

Renee: And your dad walking you back to your bed is that's very, it goes right there with it. It's a clear thing. You were worried about something in your room. You had a nightmare. It existed.

And he's okay, sounds like it existed. Let's go back. Let's deal with it. In the next day, if he talked it through with you, it's real. And let's talk about it. Let's put it on the paper and see what we can do about it. Yeah.

Nancy: I was just highlighting that. Like you put it back on the paper

Renee: That’s the balance between go to your bed because I said so, and just stay in mommy's bed because I don't want to see you crying. It's in the middle of it's time to go to bed because I said so, and we do have to go to bed because we have school in the morning or whatever we do are going to bed. You are safe, you are okay. And we can handle this, but when we see each other tomorrow, we'll talk it through or come up with a plan.

Can I make you feel safe? And now as much as I can in your space and we'll talk about it.

Nancy: Because it is funny. I still get up. If I have a nightmare, I still get up, go to the bathroom, get a glass of water.

Renee: That was your safety routine.

Nancy: My mom and I will still laugh about that because she'll say, yeah, I get up. I go to the, I get a glass of water.

I go to the bathroom. I think of your dad.

Renee: well, coping skills. And that's what all that matters is that she has a routine. You had a function. That's a very functioning normal way to handle it. Not normal. You know what I mean? Like just typical like you, that you're going to be able to live with someone and do that.

And that's what the goal is to get them to live with someone.

Nancy: He never did the, there was no conversation the next day for the record,

Renee: No parents knew how to do that, by the way, no parents,

Nancy: but in its way it normalized it's okay that you're feeling this way. And because you're feeling this way, this is what we do to solve that.

We go to the bathroom, we go to glass of water and I tuck you in. That does not happen normal. That's special because you're hurting.

Renee: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And you learned that from him regularly because it was a system and that's what gives you. Kids are really begging for there. Begging for, just give me a system.

I need this, and especially I work with a lot of kids with ADHD and anxiety, and sometimes I've seen things that seem like they go hand in hand, they just need. I just need a boundary. In fact, they need more boundaries, not less. So a lot of my families I work with a child with ADHD will say he has ADHD, so we don't really try to do any rules.

We know how his brain works. I'm like, oh no, he's the guy who needs more rules. He needs more, or boundaries, more systems. His brain doesn't make the system, his brain doesn't go with the system. He needs an external system because he doesn't. And maybe with your anxiety in the middle of the night, you didn't have an internal system that knew what to do.

You needed your dad to give you an external one.

Nancy: I absolutely loved this conversation with Renee. She provides so many concrete suggestions and examples. In fact, we had so much information. We had to divide this episode into two parts. Part two will be here next week.

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Episode 132: Working Brighter In The Hustle Culture

In today’s episode, I am talking with Brittany Berger, the founder of Work Brighter, a digital media company. Brittany has raised a one-woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction to it.

Let me check Instagram one more time. 

Go Go Go is addicting. 

During this social distancing time, I keep hearing people say that we can finally stop hustling and use this time to get in touch with ourselves. The problem with that thinking is it implies that hustling is something that was forced upon us. 

But in reality, hustling is something we choose to do as a coping mechanism against our uncomfortable feelings of sadness, grief, anger, doubt, and uncertainty. 

For those of us with High Functioning Anxiety, these mechanisms can lead to even greater levels of anxiety. We all rail against hustle culture while at the same time actively embracing it. This coping mechanism has become a valued cultural norm to the point where we even glorifying it. 

So what would it be like to stop embracing the hustle culture altogether?

My guest today has raised a one-woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction to it. Brittany Berger is the founder of Work Brighter, a digital media company that helps productive unicorns go beyond working smarter to a version of productivity that makes room for “unproductive” things like rest, self-care, and fun. 

She started Work Brighter after 5 years running content marketing in high-stress startups that prioritized hustle, growth, and scaling over self-care and mental health. Now that she’s changed her own mindset, she spends her time helping other high achievers define balance for themselves, advocating for mental health awareness, and dancing...always dancing.

That Brittany walks her talk, which is one reason this interview is so amazing. She believed the hustle culture lie with all of her being and shares not only her burnout story but what she has created and the values she lives by now. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Brittany’s transformational story of burnout with all the nitty-gritty details

• What self-care really looks like

• Why it is so hard to unhook that belief that we can rest only when we have earned it

• Practical tips for when your to-do list is 500 things long and your boss is breathing down your throat

• How to get out of the cycle of pushing during the week and collapsing on the weekend

Resources mentioned:

• Work Brighter

• Instagram @workbrighter

• Twitter @workbrighterco

• Book recommendation: Rest: Why you Get More Done When you Work Less

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Brittany: Working smarter and the traditional world of productivity and hustle culture. It was all very black and white and life is not black and white. And so we needed to work brighter instead,

Nancy: Go go go is addicting. During the social distancing time the one thing I keep hearing is we can finally stop hustling and get in touch with ourselves.

The problem with that thinking is it implies that hustling is something that is forced upon you. But in reality, hustling is something we choose to do as a coping mechanism against our own uncomfortable feelings, sadness, grief, anger, doubt, uncertainty. For those of us, with high functioning anxiety, those feelings can lead to anxiety.

So we hustle in order to deal with our anxiety and feel more comfortable. And this coping mechanism that we all do has become a valued cultural norm. We all rail against hustle culture while at the same time actively embracing it? No, I would actually say it's more accurate to say glorifying it. So what would it be like to stop glorifying it all together?

And that is what my guest has done. Brittany Berger has raised a one woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction.

Your listing to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Brittany Berger is the founder of work, brighter.co a digital media company that helps productive unicorns go beyond working smarter to a version of productivity that makes room for unproductive things like rest self-care and fun. Brittany started work brighter after five years running content marketing in high stress startups that prioritized hustle growth and scaling over self care and mental health.

Now that she's changed her own mindset. She spends her time helping other high achievers define balance for themselves. Advocating for mental health awareness and dancing, always dancing. Brittany walks her talk, which is one reason this interview is so amazing. She believed the hustle culture lie with all of her being and shares, not only her burnout story, but what she has created and the values she lives by now.

Brittany and I talk about her story of burn out Not just the transformational story, but the nitty-gritty details. What self care really means why it is so hard to unhook that belief that we can rest only when we've earned it. Practical tips for when your to-do list is 500 things long, and your boss is breathing down your throat and how to get out of the push during the week collapse during the weekend cycle.

Brittany. I am so excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

Brittany Thanks for having me.

Nancy: I'm really intrigued to hear your story. And so we're just going to jump right into that. So tell me about the day you realized you were burnt out.

Brittany: Oh, wow. I guess it was less of a day and more a slow burn where it was months of other people telling me I was burnt out and it took a while for me to believe them.

But I think it was a period from like November, 2016 to March, 2017. And I had been going through burnout for a while all of my chronic illnesses were flaring because of it. And I was hospitalized while I was away at a business trip in November because of the combination of just everything.

And it was, I was supposed to be at a conference, so I missed the whole conference and was in the hospital instead. And I was alone in a strange city. And so that was like a little bit of a wake up call for me that I was doing too much. I didn't really know what to do about it. But then by March, I realized that a big reason that I was so burnt out was because of how much I was working.

And I kept trying to work through the burnout. And by March I decided that cannot work. And I decided that I would leave my full-time job and take a little bit of what I call a Self care sabbatical and take some time just focusing on getting healthy and letting my business's passive income stuff, like happened in the background.

And then when I felt better, I went back to the business.

Nancy: So the hospital thing that was in November, and then you say it was another five months before you actually had the real, come to Jesus. Have I got to make some changes.

Brittany: Yeah, I did not figure it out quickly. I was so stubborn and I think a big part of it was my family had started to really get concerned.

There was a weekend around March where my sister came up and came up to visit from where she lived and she just got real with me about how much my health was scaring my parents. And so I just really started realizing that it wasn't just me, that the burnout was impacting. And I think it was it says a lot about my mindset at the time that doing it for myself, wasn't enough to make me actually do it.

But realizing that my, my partner, my parents, my sister, it was impacting them a lot too. I was like, all right, I shouldn’t do this to them either.

Nancy: So if someone's listening and they're they are interested like, oh wait, I think I might be where you were in that November to March period. What were some of the symptoms, what was going on in your head, as you were trying to push through, what were you telling yourself?

Brittany: I was just constantly telling myself that I wasn't doing enough and that despite how I felt and how broken and exhausted I was I couldn't rest until I finished. So I really looked at rest and just taking time away from my business and earning a break. I looked at it as something that had to be like earned and I couldn't succeed until I did that, but then I kept changing the bar for success.

And so it just never happened.

Nancy: Okay, so you recognized this is too much and then, or I'm burnout, but then it was kind of like, but once I get there, wherever there is, then I can stop and it'll be okay.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I, at the time I was working full time and I had both a blog with an email, with a course, with a paid course, as well as a freelance writing business.

So I essentially had a day job and two sides on top of the chronic illness. And so I just, I was telling myself that I needed to make enough money to pay all these medical expenses of dealing with burnout. And so I kept telling myself that, once I make this much money, I will work less hard, but then.

Working that hard would put me in the hospital and I would get another medical bill. And so then the amount of money that I needed to get up this endless cycle. And in between November and March, I also realized I would need so much less money that this thing that I'm working towards, if I just. I stopped for a while, but the reason I was so sick and had all these medical bills was because of how much I was working.

And so I realized that they were feeding into each other.

Nancy: So the burnout was causing the chronic illnesses to flare more.

Brittany: Exactly. Exactly. I like I have had inflammatory bowel disease, my whole life. And it had never been like a huge problem, except for a month at a time, it had never been a two year long problem before, but because I was never letting myself rest, it never went away.

Nancy: Yeah. It constantly fascinates me how our bodies give us signals and we just ignore them..

Brittany: Yeah Oh, I have a very long history of that. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. me too! It's sad to say that it's a skill because not a good skill, but

Brittany: yeah, it all comes down. I think we've all heard that phrase pain is weakness, leaving the body.

I think that phrase is really damaging. Like I grew up as a dancer and we heard that a lot and I really internalized it. And then eventually dancing on an ankle with two completely torn ligaments. My foot was literally connected to my leg by a thread. And I was ignoring the pain because I was saying that it would make me stronger and that it was weakness leaving my body.

That's so messed up. Yeah.

Nancy: our ego gets in the way, or we get addicted to the push, to the hustle, to the pain

Brittany: Like something to be glorified. It is a sign from our bodies.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So one phrase you have self care is my side hustle. I love that. And, self care gets so bastardized in our world. Tell me about what your definition of self-care is. What does that look like to you?

Brittany: To me, it is very non-commercial. It is not the stuff that you go out and do. It's not pampering. I like to look at self-care as kind of self-maintenance and really, yeah. Parenting and self parenting is another phrase that I've heard.

And I really liked that. And just honestly, like healthy adulting. But for me, I, when I was really in to hustle culture, I was doing nothing but working. And so for me, when I first started focusing on self-care it was things like eating breakfast. It was things like taking my meds every day. It was getting, oh God at the time, five to six hours of sleep, because I wasn't even getting that much before then.

Yeah, I was living for a while off of four hours a night. I would take a nap because I can't live off 4 hours at night, but yeah. Sleeping four hours a night. And yeah, I've doubled that, which is amazing. Yeah, it was stuff like, going to bed earlier, taking my meds, eating breakfast, eating lunch.

Really like when I was at my full-time job, the only real meal or the only, or when I was in hustle culture, despite my employment situation, the only meal I ate was dinner because I would wake up and I would work until I was exhausted and then I would eat. Yeah, so I literally used to have calendar appointments set for meals, otherwise I would forget.

So it was really just that basic stuff. Going to therapy, going to my doctor's appointments. These days, it is more I've had the basics covered. And so it also includes things like journaling and going for walks and intentional TV time where I really focus on finding something that's going to improve my mood.

So I go to bed happy and not stressed out. And yeah, for me, it's just all of those little things that you can do to maintain your mood and self care level. And it's all that kind of stuff that when you're really in the cult of toxic productivity as I like to call it where you're just defining everything by work.

It's all stuff that you attempt to really ignore. And when I first was trying to change my mindset, I recognized the fact that I didn't see a ton of value in those things. And but I did see value in hustling. And so I said that's what my hustle is going to be. Self care is going to be my side hustle.

And so that was and I also had, I still, when I left my full-time job, I had some mindset issues around taking time off and essentially taking a sabbatical. And so it was a jokey way to say oh, now my full-time job is my business, but since I'm not the kind of person that can just have one job self-care is my side.

So it was, but then also it is a testament to how seriously I took it. Because side hustles are jobs and I started treating self care like a job.

Nancy: Yeah, I like that because, so one of the issues a lot of my clients have, I had a retreat last year and we were talking in the retreat about, they know there are things that they like to do that makes them start their day off.

Like journaling would be one of them. They know that helps, but it's they feel like they have to earn it or they're don't deserve it. Or, getting over the hump of getting up every morning and journaling rather than jumping into email or taking care of the kids or whatever is hard.

How did you flip that I need to earn it mentality?

Brittany: I really just tried looking at the bigger picture and I tried connecting all of the dots. So for example, one thing that made me. Really fall in love with journaling was how much easier my work felt when I was doing brain dumps of everything on my mind and getting all of the work stuff in my head out of my head.

And so I realized that could help. Another thing was like getting more sleep. I realized that I actually like. Faster and better as a writer when I get more sleep. And so I realized that it's all connected. It's not, I like to say self care, isn't something to be earned once you succeed.

It's part of the process for success. It's not like you work then. The rest is part of the work. One book that I really love and that really helped change my mindset was called Rest. Why you get more done when you work less? And it really looked at like the neuroscience of what happens to our brains when we're.

Working like four hours a day, which is the sweet spot. The author recommended of deep focused work, four hours of that versus eight hours. And it was just, it's really eye opening and like the importance of sleep and how that actually impacts your work. I really started seeing. It was part of the process and not the reward.

Nancy: Okay. I like the idea, the pulling back. So you can flop your brain to be like, this is helping me work better, which is the goal. And turning the whole thought process on its head. Yeah. In so many ways that's really what do you do when your to-do list is 50,000 things long, and you're not working for yourself. So you're working for a boss and you haven't, you're in an organization and you're just overwhelmed by, there's, there's no way you're going to get that list done.

Brittany: Prioritization and communication.

Okay. I was super bad at this at my first job. And in that job, I eventually got a new manager who recognized my overwhelm and she taught me a phrase that's really great. And she was like, you need to say this to me sometimes. It is like when someone is asking you to do something like someone, your colleague or your boss, it's just basically stating what your current priorities are and saying okay, sure I can do that. But then what should I take off my plate to make room for it?

And so it's not, rejecting so it's not like saying to a colleague, no, I can't do that. It's saying help me figure out how I can do that. Because one thing that also took me a little bit too long to realize is that like coworkers, we don't want each other overwhelmed and like your boss it's okay.

If you can't do everything your boss is throwing at you. They might not realize that they're throwing too much at you. And that was the case with me and my manager and I didn't realize that I could say no or not know, but that I could say let's talk this out. Or like how I didn't realize that because I assumed that my boss has everything perfect and figured out, but that's not the case.

None of us have everything figured out. And so she, she didn't realize that she was giving me too much. And. Saying Hey, this is difficult. Like saying sure, I could do this thing for you this morning, but you already said you wanted me to do this thing this morning. Which do you want more just making other people more aware of what's going on? Because a lot of times. I think when we're really overwhelmed, we assume none of our coworkers can help.

Because they're all overwhelmed too. And that might be the case, but we're still all, we all want to help each other. And a lot of times it's easier than we thought. For example, continuing the boss example, like maybe she did give you two things to do this morning, but that's just because she thought they'd be easy.

And when she really thinks about it, neither need to get done right now. And yeah, just open communication as much as possible. Some bosses aren't ideal and some, cultures, unfortunately, you can't be super open and honest about that stuff, but just be as open and honest about it as you can be in your situation and yeah.

Ruthless prioritization when it comes down. Yeah.

Nancy: Because that's also then, it's back to that piece of, I need to be honest with myself, this is too much, instead of being aware of when you're amping up into the hustle culture versus when you're being authentic.

Yeah. So speaking of that, tell me, I think I know what the hostile culture is, but just for the listeners, what is your definition of hustle culture?

Brittany: I tend to define. I'm actually working on like a definitive definition for my brand right now, but it's some of the key qualities I like to point out are work for the sake of work and just taking on as much as possible.

The, for the hell of it. When you're taking it off work that serves no real purpose, that's not, in pursuit of a goal you actually care about. So there's that quote, I forget who says it, but that I love but growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer. Oh, my gosh.

Nancy: That's

Brittany: awesome.

Yeah. Like a scientist. I think that said it. But it's just such a great mindset to approach work with. Because we are just taught to accumulate stuff, success, accolades money. But how much of it do we need? That's going to be a different amount for everyone, but like knowing you're enough amount.

I think that's part of the book essentially. Is like defining your enough. I really love that because yeah, it lets you figure out how much you ha what enough work is, what enough money is that you need in your life? What accolades and yeah. Milestones you really want. And so that's one quality.

Another quality is treating rest and hobbies and fun as something that you need to earn instead of something that you've deserved and that, and really something that helps you work like I've already said, rest is work and it helps you get your job done. But like play is to, I can't tell you how many great ideas I have come from.

I have had from watching TV or going to a dance class. Actually when I used to go to my dance classes, I would come out so full of inspiration that I would go for a walk around the studio neighborhood with my with a voice memo and just brain dump the, all the ideas out of my head, because I was so full of inspiration about work from that one hour dance.

And yeah. And so rest is part of the process of success. Play is part of the process. Yeah. We're not machines. We can't just work all the time.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that about the cancer cell. That's really cool. Because that's a great visual to think, like why am I pushing so hard for, because I think so many times we start pushing just for the sake of pushing.

Like we don't even know what we're doing this for

Brittany: exactly, because we've just. Unintentionally opted into a contest of who can work the most

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Because something, I work a lot with my clients on is stopping the phrase I deserve. Because they'll say I deserve this vacation and I'm like, no you need the vacation.

Brittany: I do use the phrase I deserve, but as a human being, not as like you've earned it, but as human. Deserve all of these things, no matter what exactly.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. It's but it's that idea of, I get it because I've worked so hard is just not helpful.

Yeah. Okay. So here's, this is a personal question well personal for me. So one of my issues. Is, and I work with this with my clients too, but is that is I notice I get trapped in the cycle of I'll push really hard all week and then I'll crash on the weekend.

So I'll push really hard all week. And then on Friday, which is my day off, I'll spend the day like doing Netflix and playing on my video games. And it's not that intentional TV watching, as you talked about and. How do you know?, and I know I got into that habit. I noticed I got into the habit and I'm trying to break out of it.

But a lot of times I asked myself, how do I know if I'm wasting time or if I'm just being lazy or avoiding stuff.

Brittany: I think it's really just a matter of holding yourself aware. Yeah. I talk a lot about energy management. And for me, that helps because if I'm low on energy, then I need to do something to recharge my energy.

If I'm feeling energetic and I just am in the mood and I am feeling the pull to the Netflix remote anyway, but Check in with my energy and I'm like, oh, I could actually get up and do a jumping Jack right now. Then, oh, that might just be procrastination. And I might not actually need a 22 minute sit-com break.

Okay. So it's really, I think self-awareness and especially around your energy and your to-do lists for example, also, , if I am like feeling distracted or like I deserve a break or I need a break and I know. Also the one thing left on my to-do list for the day is something I don't want to do then.

Yeah. (laughter)

Nancy: Yeah. I can relate to that (laughter)

Brittany: that. Yeah. Very situational

Nancy: . Yeah, because the idea of like needing. Needing to be lazy. And I say that term lazy in the sense of open space, like having time to do a dance class or not necessarily being lazy, like laying on the couch in my pajamas, but just having time is something that I don't give myself very often.

Yeah. And I think that is unless I'm just totally exhausted and then I'm not taking advantage of it. Then you're just regrouping all the time.

Brittany: Yeah. I think another thing that helps is trying to focus on the big picture and instead of just the next week, because if I know I need to work again next week, then I'm going to be less likely to work myself to the bone this week. And so I know if I'm, if I have to work every week for the next 52 weeks I need to sustain myself. So I definitely, I look at sustainability. So I can't, I wish I remember who said this, but it was just a tweet. But it was. Every percent that you put in past 100% today is alone from your future self.

Oh, that's. Yeah. And so if I put in 150% this week, that means I can only do 50% next week. And so instead I look at it as I'm going to do my 100% this week. I'm going to use. Extra time. And instead of, I don't know, just scrolling Instagram, I am going to open the Kindle app on my phone.

One thing that I did amazingly last year was that I switched those two icons on my home screen and Instagram, and just the change that automatically happened was wild. But yeah, so I just look at it as I only have 150% this week, unless I am going to borrow from the future.

Nancy: Okay. That's a cool way of looking at it.

How long? So if you say like November of 2017 or March of 2017, you had your come to Jesus. How long did it take you to really unhook all that? I know you're still unhooking. It's an ongoing process, but until you started really seeing some.

Brittany: I would say maybe in the next like six to eight, 12 months is when I really changed a lot in my life.

So I had that realization that I needed to leave my job in, or that I needed to delete my full-time job in March since I had others. And I left in June. And I would say the first, definitely the first, at least six months of my, of I'm not working full time in house. I still very much had the same hustle, culture mindset, and I was working less and stuff like that, but I wasn't, it wasn't super okay with it and stuff like that.

And so I would say it took a lot and I was in therapy that time. I did a lot of journaling that time. And I also just started as I started seeing the results of working less, it started to become easier to believe because I could feel the results for myself

Nancy: and what were those results?

Brittany: So much more energy, so much more fun.

Like as an entrepreneur, it feels so weird to care so little about so many things I'm supposed to care about now, but I know that my business is serving me and I just feel so aligned and happy. I have a post on my blog. That's five signs the mindset work is working and it's just things I've noticed from the past year.

Like I used to walk around my house, singing all the time and then I don't really know when, but like I stopped singing. But I've started singing again like singing in the shower. I've started doing that again and it's such a little thing, but that's something that I now realize, like I had, I just, I had taken, I zapped the joy out of my life and somewhere I've gotten it back and I'm like singing and I'm dancing around the apartment, not just in class.

And I smile sometimes for no one reason and stuff like that. And it's just all this stuff. That's. Like it was so absent for so long.

Nancy: Yeah. Which I think that happens to a lot of us that we forget those things just disappear one by one little by little.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I hadn't even realized that I stopped singing or that I started again.

Until my fiancé mentioned something about how I think he thought that I stopped because we moved to New York and we just have smaller quarters and thinner walls or something. Because I used to walk around our big apartment. The concrete walls and stuff just like belting out in my horrible voice.

And so I think he thought that I stopped, like out of out of courtesy or something, but no, I was just depressed.

Nancy: Yeah. Thank God for partners, man. Because my husband will frequently point out to me. Like you don't laugh anymore. What happened to the laughter? and it's like oh yeah,

Sometimes we need someone else to point that out to us.

Brittany: Exactly. Yeah. Like exactly him and my sister were really the people in that time. That really convinced me before that March moment.

Nancy: and it's amazing how much convincing it takes. I think. Yeah. Even when the people we love the most and the closest to us are like this isn't okay.

It's harder for our, it just takes a while for us. Have that message sink in. Yep. Okay. So then I want to hear about, you mentioned energy management. Tell me more about that, how that works for you on a daily basis and how it really changed your life.

Brittany: Just totally changed the way I structure my day and they know that I have a leg up with this because I am in total control of my own schedule.

But even when I started doing energy management, when I still worked in house. So to give you a run down of what it used to look like. So, before I started paying attention to energy, I would get to work in the morning. I would immediately jump into writing long form, serious content.

I would just dive right in no warmup, no anything. Basically do that until I couldn't anymore. And then I would do the other stuff, like the admin, the communication, whatnot. I also, I would batch all of my calls on one day a week because that was like a productivity tip I read somewhere and I was very much in the place that we talked about before, where like I would work until Friday or until my day off. And then I would just crash. That was very much the cycle I would crash every night. I would come home from work, take a nap before I could even eat dinner. But then yeah, I was totally zapped.

And the changes that I made when I worked in house was I stopped writing in the mornings because I realized I am not a morning person. And while I can't change the fact that I have to be at work at nine, I don't have to do the hardest work right then I can wait until I've had some caffeine and some lunch and stuff.

So I started doing my admin in the morning. I started doing meetings in the morning because that's stuff that I didn’t need to be at my best for, like when I am, I'm really at my prime in terms of writing at 2:00 PM. And then again at 9:30 PM. And so I started protecting those hours and making sure that I could write during that time, I also stopped batching calls because I'm an introvert.

And so I realized that was burning me out. That it's much easier for me. Yeah. Spread out the calls and so what works now is that I have a, depending on the day, I just have a slot for calls every day and it's like my socializing hours. And so I paced myself and so it's still like time blocked.

It's still the same block of time almost every day. And it's still I know it in advance, so it's still very organized and it brings all of the benefits that batching calls brings, but it doesn't burn out my energy. Zap my will to talk. And another thing that I did was I like I was side hustling and I had always felt the pull to try to wake up early and work on my business in the morning before I went to my day job.

Since that's the common advice. Yeah. But again, energy management. I identified that I was really awake. Like I got really hyper right before I go to bed. And so from 9:30 to 1130, I would make my business hours. And so, I stopped trying to fit that work in before my day job. And then when I got home from work, I wouldn't try to dive into my side hustle right away.

I would wait until my prime hour and sometimes Sleep problems. And so sometimes I would even take a nap after work instead of going to bed earlier so that I could make sure to be awake during the energy hours. And I would still get the same amount of sleep, but I was awake when I knew I was great at writing.

And since that was my main job,

Nancy: because I love in your, before we hit record, I was talking about how much I love your blog. You have to go check out workbrighter.co.

Nancy: She has some amazing blogs and YouTube videos. The whole thing is fabulous.

And I want to talk about your clubhouse here in a little bit, but you take on that idea of the 5:00 AM, whatever they have a name for it, that everyone feels like this is what

Brittany: the 5 AM club, the miracle morning and all of that stuff.

Nancy: Yeah. Which was so I just love that you took that on because so many clients will say to me, I read that the major executives get up at 5:00 AM and do stuff. And I'm like, not if you're not a 5:00 AM person.

Brittany: Yeah. Oh my God, I'm being targeted with a New York times article right now, like in Facebook ads. And it's how to become a morning person, even if you're not.

And it makes me so angry because I am like, I'm not saying that mornings are bad or we shouldn't be in the mornings. I am saying mornings are bad for me personally. I'm saying if you're a morning person own it. If you're a night owl own it, if you're a night owl, don't try to become a morning person.

And I hate that. I keep getting retargeted with that article. But yeah. I used to not be able to set my own work hours to the extreme. And so how I adapted the energy to that was like, okay, I had to be at work at eight, but I wasn't going to do the hard work then.

And now what that looks is I am going to stay up later and sleep later. Like right now I sleep until 9:30 or 10 most days, because I know that means I can stay up later and work more and it's not yeah, It just feels so much more relaxed this way, but yeah. Instead of trying to become a morning person or a whatever, I'm all about just becoming very comfortable with what you are and owning it and leveraging it.

Nancy: I love that. So the whole thing with energy management is just being really intentional about your personal energy. And not buying into oh, I should be. Or this is what they do.

Brittany: Exactly. I like to call energy management, a filter for all of the other productivity advice out there, because the biggest problem with all of the productivity advice out there, isn't that it’s wrong. It's that it's given as a one size fits all. This always works thing when productivity is so personal. And so energy management kind of gives you a filter to run other tips. For example, the batching calls piece of advice. I can run that through my little energy management filter and say okay, that I can't batch a whole day of calls, but I can do two calls in the same hour on one day or something like that, if that fits into my book.

And so it just helps you figure out which of the hacks and quick tips out there. Will actually work for you to apply them.

Nancy: Yeah. Because a lot of my clients and I'm guilty of this too. I notice whenever, like even yesterday I had something that it's something on my calendar that I don't really want, that I'm struggling with right now.

And and so I'm like, oh, I need to develop a new system. Like what I need a new system. If I had a new system, this wouldn't be so painful. And then they go into this whole thing of looking for a new system. And now I know I don't go down that rabbit hole because I recognize, okay, new system is a red flag.

And that means, you don't want to be doing something, but all the time, my clients will say to me, oh, I just need a new system. And because there's so much freaking advice out there on here's the perfect system, but none of it is saying. Pay attention to your own energy. Like you can find a new system, but it may not work for you.

Yeah.

Brittany: Most of the time you need to improve what you have because you are called to it for a reason and it just needs some optimization.

Nancy: So that continually coming back to yourself and running everything through yourself, which is so hard when people have been focused externally on hustle culture, it's like a whole new way of being.

Brittany: Yeah. It's almost like a self-awareness exercise too. I feel like it makes you a lot more self-aware about the way you work.

Nancy: So right now, what would you say are the self-care things you do that are just like set in stone? These are. Not get non-negotiables. I

Brittany: recently learned how important my sad lamp is.

I live in Manhattan. It is winter. We are on the third floor in a neighborhood of much taller building. So no natural light comes into the apartment. And yeah, I've had this sad lamp for a while and I use it in the winter and. Super great with the routine of it until recently. And then I dropped it and I hadn't noticed that I stopped using it.

It was just like, I was cleaning one day and I moved it to clean off the table and I didn't put it back and that broke the habit. And I didn't realize until I was like, why is my sleep schedule? So off, I was like waking. I was waking up at four, 5:00 AM and then being exhausted by 11:00 AM. I was taking like two naps a day and my body just would not stay asleep no matter what time I went to bed for more than five hours at a time.

So if. If I started planning around waking up at 5:00 AM and going to bed earlier, it would still just wake up after five hours. There was one day that I woke up at 3:00 AM, because I went to bed earlier. And I realized it's because I hadn't been using the lamp. And so I really give it credit for helping regulate my sleep.

And when I'm not getting a lot of sunlight right now. So I recently learned how important that is. Other crucial things are. Journaling. I do so much of it these days in a bullet journal for me, and that's just, I love the bullet journal method. Another habit is therapy. I know it's not accessible for everyone.

But if it is it's so great. One thing that I'm trying to be better about this year is not waiting until I need to. I talk to my therapist to talk to my therapist. Standing weekly talk. And that has been great so far because it's I get proactive about it and I'm like, all right, what can I talk to her about this week instead of just, and so I'm able to treat things before they become, talk to things talk with her about things before they become like dire emergencies, instead of just having the dire emergency.

Nancy: That's very common.

Brittany: Netflix is so important. Like I said, intentional TV time is everything. I totally get that TV can be a big time waste, but it has gotten such a bad reputation and productivity. It's it can be so great. Like I actually, I like to say like natural Pomodoros. So like for example, a lot of times I use a 22, like the modern nowadays.

A 30 minute sitcom block with like commercials taken out is about 22 minutes. That is if you've been working for two to three hours, that is a great sized break and you can turn it off the autoplay on Netflix so that it doesn't automatically go to the next step. That is important. Yeah. It is an important part of this.

You have to turn off the autoplay vivo, but yeah, once you do. Great. It's I just, I like it's become a routine where like I finished up a big chunk of work at my desk. I pick one episode and I break for that long and then I get back to work. And so I kind of work in these cycles of two hours of work, 22 minutes and TV, and it's making sure and not just turning on the TV to whatever channels on yeah.

Actually picking something out that makes me happy. I highly recommend The Good Place or Parks and Rec or Brooklyn Nine Nine or Schitt's Creek.

Nancy: That's awesome. I've even gone back recently and started watching the golden girls. Yeah. Just talk about pull you out of here. Like just love them so much.

It's just, it's such a great and I, because I can remember, I love that you said that about Netflix because it does get such a bad rap. And I can remember years ago I was at a conference with Ilanya, Vanzant she used to be a big guru years ago and she said her favorite thing to do was to come home, take her bra off, lay in the middle of her bed and watch Law and Order

Because there was a beginning, a middle and an end, they always caught the bad guy. It was just like so awesome. And she would just watch it episode of that and just feel great. And I was like, thank you, for sure sharing that it wasn't, that you were sitting in meditating and being Zen, like in the middle of your bed, like you were a human being who is this is how I detress.

And I think that we need to be talking about how to do that intentionally.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I am so intentional with the TV shows I watch too. I do not just turn on any channel. I cut out like all or all like suspense shows, like I used to watch Law and Order, but I realized that for me, it wasn’t making me very nice, especially like living in New York, walking right behind me.

That is not for me. Sitcoms. I almost only watch sitcoms now and it's so great because it's just like a lot. And especially like picking out the, your favorite episodes and like the laugh out loud ones and it's just such a great way to de stress.

Nancy: That's awesome. Okay. So you, and so work brighter came out as a response to this burnout.

Brittany: Yeah, I originally, the newsletter was honestly originally called work smarter for a few months. And then I was like, I am too obsessed with working smarter. We are all obsessed with working smarter is not the answer we all thought it would. And I just got very sick of that phrase and it started feeling like working brighter or working smarter and the traditional world of productivity and hustle culture.

It was all very black and white and life is not black. And yeah. And so we needed to work brighter. Instead. I love that it started as just like a personal mantra for me that I would tell myself. And then I ended up like customizing notebooks and putting it on my whiteboard and stuff like that. And yeah.

It became very internalized and then it became so internalized that I was talking about it, like on Instagram or something, like my whiteboard would show up and people would be like, oh, I like the sound of that. And so eventually I changed the newsletter name and it snowballed.

Nancy: Wow.

That's awesome. So what's the work brighter clubhouse

Brittany: The Clubhouse is my self care community. It is where I like to say people get support for redefining their relationships with productivity work and breasts. And energy management is a really core part of it. I have a lot of courses about how to hone different habits and self-care practices.

For example, there's just a general habit building course, there's a journaling workshop coming this month and stuff like that. Yeah. So just these workshops and I provide tools for everything. So there's an energy management tracker, there's journaling prompts and, but more important than the resources.

There's the there's the actual community and accountability. I like to say it's the place where we will tell you to take a break and when to take a break. Yeah, I just actually it's I like to say the doors are closed to, for home renovations right now, but they'll be opening back up later in the spring with some new features.

Nancy: Okay. Cool. So it's like we were talking earlier about having your partner there to say, Hey, you need to take a break. This community serves as that in some ways, the mirror kind of

Brittany: exactly it is. Especially if you're working around people who are super in hustle culture. It is I think a really great balance to that.

Yeah. First realized they needed to start it because I was in all of these business communities where I realized I was, my workaholism was being really enabled. Like I would post in there oh, I just finished doing this. And like I wasn't didn't think I'd finished it until next week, but I pushed through and I did it and they would all congratulate me.

Instead of, maybe questioning or something like that. And so I realized that a lot of my bad habits were being enabled in the online communities that I was in. And so this was the. Pendulum swinging in the other direction, where in the clubhouse we do celebrate your work done, but we also celebrate your rests done.

And we celebrate the small progress, not just the big things. So you're not always pushed to make things bigger and bigger.

Nancy: That's awesome. Because I was talking with another guest who was saying that she that she, when she went through a burnout period, no one confronted her. Because she had convinced them she could do it,

Brittany: maybe she could but she shouldn’t have to.

Nancy: Exactly. And that's the problem sometimes with are those, the support systems we've built is we've built support systems that enable us to stay in this culture.

Brittany: Yeah. Yeah. I like to say it's a shelter for escapees from hustle culture.

Nancy: Oh, that's beautiful. That's really beautiful.

I like that a lot. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom around this and your experience and your wisdom born from experience, which I think is the best place that wisdom comes from. And I'm going to put the books that you shared and the work brighter website and all the information about you on our show notes so that everyone can find out more and learn more from your wisdom.

Brittany: Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you.

Nancy: I especially wanted to highlight what Brittany said about the importance of communication and ruthless prioritization being open to saying to your boss. Sure. I can do that. But then what should I take off my plate to make room for it? That sounds wonderful and easy, but I know for many of my clients saying those words would immediately fire off a monger attack saying you should be able to handle anything.

You aren't organized enough. You're just lazy. We automatically assume that we should be able to do everything. And do everything well, I love this question because it lets your boss know you're wanting to prioritize the work. Also reminded them of how much is on your plate. When we start to prioritize self-care, checking in with ourselves, and reducing the judgment or need to justify, we can ask for what we need and a kind loving way that supports us and the team we are a part of.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 131: The Surprising Connection Between Avoidance and Anxiety

In today’s episode, I want to wrap the month up and talk about the connection between avoidance and High Functioning Anxiety and give you some insight into High Functioning Anxiety vs Low Functioning Anxiety.

Let me check Instagram one more time. 

Maybe I got an email? I haven’t checked for 10 minutes. 

My glass of what is almost empty. Let me go downstairs for a refill. Stretching would be good right now, anyway. 

Well, that break took a lot longer than I had planned. I got sucked into pulling some weeds while talking to my husband and then decided to make a snack. 

Oh geez, I forgot to actually refill my glass. 

Okay. Back at my desk. Before I start writing, let me check Instagram one more time. Anything new in my inbox?

This was me trying to write this podcast episode–avoiding and procrastinating. For me, this is all part of the process. 

All this month we have been talking about avoidance and anxiety. We talked with Jacquette Timmons, about avoidance and money, Erica Drewry about our relationship with food, Bailey Parnell about social media, and Andrea Owen about avoidance, anxiety, addiction.

Today I want to wrap the month up and talk about the connection between avoidance and High Functioning Anxiety and give you some insight into High Functioning Anxiety vs Low Functioning Anxiety. 

Avoidance and anxiety go hand in hand but you might be surprised to learn how. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What the differences are between High Functioning Anxiety and Low Functioning Anxiety

• How there really isn’t one type of anxiety that is better than the other

• How knowing where you fall really helps with coping better

• And how to avoid unhealthy coping mechanisms that we often develop around our anxiety

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Okay, let me check Instagram just one more time. Well, maybe I got an email. I haven't checked for like 10 minutes.

Well, now I need some water. I only have half a glass. Let me go downstairs and fill up my cup. And stretching, you know, that would be good right now. WOW! That break took a lot longer than I planned.

You know, it's not my fault. My husband was working outside, so I got sucked into pulling some weeds while talking to him. Well, then I decided I needed to make a snack. Oh, Jeez, I totally forgot to actually fill up my water glass. Let me head back downstairs to actually do that. Okay. I'm back at my desk. Well, before I start writing, let me check Instagram one more time. Oh, I mean an email; it's been like another 10 minutes--I might've missed something.

This is me trying to write this podcast episode avoidance procrastination, all part of the process, I guess. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith, all this month. We're talking about avoidance and anxiety. Avoidance and anxiety go hand in hand, but not how you think today. I want to talk about avoidance and high functioning anxiety. While also giving you some insight into high functioning anxiety versus low functioning anxiety.

One of the sentiments. I hear most often from clients when I describe high-functioning anxiety is, "Oh, good. I'm not the only one". Or finally, that makes so much sense. I'm so glad I'm not alone.

So in that spirit, if you struggle with anxiety, I'm hoping this episode will help you feel less alone. When we have anxiety, we build up coping skills, sometimes healthy, sometimes unhealthy, in response to the anxious feelings inside.

If you have anxiety, you might feel a sense of dread, worry, lots of self-doubts, insecurity, and a sense of vigilance and overwhelm. That anxiety is how you see the world. It is a part of you, and something you deal with how you respond to that anxiety is important. You might be someone who is high functioning, which means in the face of anxiety, you push yourself harder and faster.

You take on more responsibility, go at it alone, engage in perfectionism and people-pleasing and hustle, hustle, hustle, in a sense, trying to outrun your anxiety. If you're someone who responds to your anxiety by low functioning, you tend to freeze in the face of anxiety. You hunker down, become more passive and rely more on other people.

As a reminder, one is not better than the other. In fact, as with most coping mechanisms, no matter your response, you shame yourself. High functioning people wish they could settle themselves down, and low functioning people wish they could propel themselves forward a bit more. Whether your response is high functioning or low functioning, both cause us pain and leave us feeling crappy.

It's important to know the difference between the two responses so you can recognize your anxiety through your behaviors. Many people, when they think of anxiety, think of the traits of low functioning anxiety. They don't realize that the hustling, pushing, going it alone, perfectionism, and people-pleasing are actually a result of anxiety.

So in showcasing these two reactions to anxiety, I want to help you see where your anxiety might be coming out and how you can take action to help. Then there is another separation of anxiety, chronic anxiety versus acute anxiety. Acute anxiety is in response to a stressor, a big deadline at work, a sickness in the family, or a massive worldwide pandemic, all-cause acute anxiety.

Whereas chronic anxiety is ongoing. I have chronic anxiety, which means on a daily basis, I deal with anxiety. It's always there. And through coping skills, I can keep it controlled. It's similar to having a chronic health condition like diabetes or arthritis. It's always there, and it might flare from time to time.

So in times of high stress, such as living through a worldwide pandemic, those with chronic anxiety have their normal everyday anxiety and then throw in some extra anxiety about the world as we know it changing. It's the difference between having pain in your legs because you overdid on your workout and having joint pain in your knees on a daily basis.

And all this month, we've been talking about avoidance. Again, avoidance looks different for those who have low functioning anxiety, and for those who have high functioning anxiety, people with low functioning anxiety are very aware of their anxiety. For the most part, they know they're anxious and what they're anxious about, and they will ruminate on that stressor.

Their avoidance shows up as being passive, avoiding the stressor, procrastinating on the stressor, and even sabotaging their own success. To quiet the nonstop ruminating, they might over or eat a pint of ice cream. They will obsess over social media to escape from their own words. Many of my clients, high function in the face of anxiety, and their anxiety is chronic.

Meaning it is with them all the time. They might experience more anxiety during stressful situations, but for the most part, anxiety is a part of their brain. For people with high functioning anxiety, avoidance looks very different. Many people with high-functioning anxiety are completely unaware that they're experiencing anxiety.

They know something is off. They know they feel unsettled, but rather than facing that unsettled feeling, they push on harder and faster. The more anxious they feel, the more they hustle and avoid those feelings. If you ask someone with high functioning anxiety, what they were anxious about, they probably couldn't tell you with any specificity.

Whereas someone with low functioning anxiety could tell you exactly what they're anxious about. Someone with high functioning anxiety isn't avoiding the stressor; they're avoiding themselves. So they will use alcohol, food, spending social media to numb out as well. But it's not to numb the feelings; it's to settle themselves after pushing so hard.

So in order to relax, they will engage in numbing activities. Both types use all the things we discussed this month to avoid, but for very different reasons, low functioning anxiety is numbing because they're so tired of feeling and high functioning anxiety is numbing because they're so tired of pushing, as Andrea Owen said about her drinking and anxiety and episode 130, that when it rolled around a four o'clock and her anxiety had been building all day, even if her intention was not to drink, she couldn't handle it without a drink.

Knowing where you fall allows you to know how to cope better with your anxiety. Because I help people with high functioning anxiety, my work is around building self loyalty, getting in touch with your feelings, building a relationship with yourself, and quieting the monger who is telling you to go go go. If you have low functioning anxiety, help would come from learning how to move through your feelings and not get stuck in them, mindset work, and shifting your ruminating thoughts and worries.

I just cannot express enough how figuring out the difference between these two responses of low functioning and high functioning has been such a game-changer for my life and my work. For so many years, I tried to treat my anxiety with low functioning anxiety tools and just made it worse. Shifting my mindset and pulling myself away from my feelings was not what I needed.

It was the opposite of what I needed. Once I realized that treating anxiety for someone with high functioning anxiety involves totally different tools. Everything shifted for my clients and me. And because those of us with anxiety love to have everything in black and white and tied up in a neat box. I want to caution you that these two definitions of high functioning and low functioning are on a continuum.

There may be times you use coping skills that are high functioning, and there may be times you use coping skills that are low functioning. People tend to have a preference, but it isn't an either-or scenario all the time. So back to avoidance, because I really want to continue to pull apart these two methods of functioning when it comes to avoidance, avoidance is part of both types. It just shows up in very different ways.

Here's an example. It's a simple example. You're given an assignment at work to present on a new project you just started in front of the entire office. With low functioning anxiety, you immediately freak out. Your response to this fear is to avoid the project altogether. You procrastinate on the task, putting it completely out of your mind because whenever it comes up, you're on the verge of a panic attack, and you just can't face it. You may, in fact, sabotage the task in some way. When you do start working on it, you miss deadlines and only do the task with a half-hearted attitude.

Putting all your energy into it is just too scary. So two days before the presentation, you're lamenting to a coworker about this project. And so they, probably someone with high functioning anxiety, jump in to take over for you and rescue you from having to present at all. These avoidance behaviors are not necessarily based on conscious choices but in response to an underlying fear of being judged, humiliated, or exposed as a fraud.

For those with high functioning anxiety, you also have avoidance behaviors in response to an underlining fear of being judged, humiliated, or exposed as a fraud, but it shows up very differently. Your Monger is loud, you know, you're going to fail and let them down. So you procrastinate until the last minute.

But you're driven by this fear of failure. You let the idea percolate in your head, you work around the idea, you get your desk already, your research the right way to use the technology, or see if there's actual research on the project you're working on. And at the very last minute, you start actually working on the presentation.

Once you get your butt in the chair, you work your butt off, getting every detail right. And you go above and beyond the call of duty. The morning of the presentation, feeling like a fraud, you grab a couple of extra donuts and pour yourself an extra-large coffee with cream because you deserve it after all the carbs don't help.

And as you step up to the presentation, you feel like you might just puke, but you can't run now, what would people think? So you step up on the stage, and almost as if you were channeling a professional speaker, you take control of the situation and pull off an amazing presentation. You walk off the stage, your coworkers are congratulating you, but you can't take the praise because you just keep thinking of all the ways you did it wrong and could have done it better.

You escaped your office, exhausted, depleted, and almost on the verge of two. With high functioning anxiety, you do the actual task. You run toward the thing that is most scary, but the avoidance strategies come in very different ways. You avoid feeling anything about the task. You avoid being fully present around the project.

You avoid owning your success because your anxiety and your Monger are telling you that if you do face anything, you will be exposed for the fraud. Because we're living in extremely high anxiety time, I would be missing something if I didn't use this time as an example. During the past few weeks, clients have said they're feeling out of control, fearful of the unknown, and full of insecurity and doubt.

And here are some of the ways low functioning anxiety and high functioning anxiety have shown up during this worldwide pandemic. If you have low functioning anxiety, you might be having a hard time concentrating. So giving yourself an out about working too hard, leaving the groceries and other tasks to the rest of the family, you're going back and forth between oversleeping and undersleeping.

Probably have your days and nights even confused, having a hard time, doing anything other than obsessing about the news while curled up on the couch or going days without watching the news while bingeing, Netflix curled up on the couch.

If you have high functioning anxiety, you've probably been overworking, even though you're having a hard time focusing. Over-planning obsessing about the groceries, focusing on homeschooling perfectly, forcing yourself to constantly be doing, being creative, trying something new using this time to be beneficial, you might have trouble sleeping, but you're jumping out of bed to make sure you're using the time production.

Sticking to the schedule as much as possible and beating yourself up when you fail to stick to it, looking outside of yourself for the right way to do this and obsessively reading articles on what to do and how to feel. And both of these types might use food as a numbing tool. As Erica Drewry the dietician and nutritionist explained in episode 128, you might be overwhelmed or you're avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don't want to feel.

Do you know what works for both types of anxiety? Awareness, and kindness. The very nature of high functioning anxiety is avoidance avoiding our feelings, avoiding what's really going on, looking outside of ourselves for answers and wisdom. Again, the reminder that one way is not better when it comes to coping with anxiety, people who appear high functioning can be in distress in the same way that people who are low functioning can be one is not more.

They're both simply responses to anxiety and avoidance is a huge part of both. Those of us with high functioning anxiety have been taught that our quirky behaviors, our overarching need for control and doing it right, or because we're high strong or type a, and that might be true. And for many of us, those behaviors are a sign of something underneath that is way more debilitating and overwhelming feeling of being found out.

As the fraud we feel inside, it is a carefully constructed house of cards designed to appear solid and strong, but in reality, is consumed by doubt and insecurity. The one theme in all the podcast episodes this month, from money to social media, to alcohol, to food, was until we stop avoiding and pretending we have it all together.

We won't heal. The first step in the healing process is looking ourselves in the mirror and saying, I see you. I get it. Let's lay it down for a few seconds. Let's put down the hustle, the appearance, the, I got this. Let's be kind. Let's admit we don't have it. And that is okay.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 130: Alcohol, Anxiety, & Avoidance

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Andrea Owen, recovering alcoholic, life coach, and author about the connection between avoidance and alcohol.

Is it too early to pour a glass of wine? 

I'm just going to have one drink while I read my book outside. 

Okay, well, one more while I cooked dinner. 

Oh, a glass of wine would taste so good with this pasta. 

I think I'm just going to do half a glass. 

Well, there's just a little bit left in the bottle. I'm just going to finish that up…

And then at 3:00 AM, waking up with a headache and unable to go back to sleep, my monger starts chiming in: Why did you drink so much? What were you thinking? Why did you do that – again?

Before I took a long, hard look at my drinking, this was what I put myself through most days of the week.

Alcohol and anxiety tend to go hand in hand. We drink to decrease our anxiety and then because it feels so good, we drink too much and the result is an increase in anxiety. 

Today, we're continuing our month of avoidance and anxiety by talking with Andrea Owen about the connection between avoidance and alcohol. 

As a recovering alcoholic and life coach, Andrea has a unique perspective on the topic of avoidance and alcohol. She is the founder of Your Kick-Ass Life coaching and author of the books How To Stop Feeling Like Shit and 52 Ways To Live a Kick-Ass Life. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for years, and this is the first time I've had the privilege of talking with her. 

I love this interview for so many reasons, but the main point I want to leave you with is that alcohol use runs on a continuum and it is a personal decision. No one can tell you that you have a problem with alcohol except for yourself. For Andrea, her bottom was very high. For others, it takes much more drama and devastation before they notice they have a problem.

If you haven’t had the chance, go back and listen to the episodes with Jacquette Timmons, Erica Drewry, and Bailey Parnell. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Andrea knew she wasn’t just a social drinker

• Why it can be so hard to see that drinking is a problem

• Why alcohol gives us false hope as a treatment for our anxiety and why it can make for a dangerous combination

• What role society plays in drinking

• And what to do if you want to change your relationship with alcohol

Resources mentioned:

• Your Kick-Ass Life Podcast: Confession

• Your Kick-Ass Life coaching

• Book: How To Stop Feeling Like Shit

• Book: 52 Ways To Live a Kick-Ass Life

+ Read the Transcript

Andrea: nd then four o'clock rolls around five o'clock rolls around, and the anxiety starts to build, and that's when I would break. And it would be five 30 or six o'clock, and I'd be like, I forgot the garlic. I need to go to Trader Joe's, and I would run down there and get a bottle of two-buck chuck. And I would probably get more than one just to be safe because my anxiety was so high.

And that happened over and over again.

Nancy: What time is it? Is it too early to pour a glass of wine? Okay. I'm just going to have one drink while I read my book outside. Okay. One more while I cook dinner. Oh. A glass of wine would taste so good with this pasta. I think I'm just going to do half a glass. Oh, look.

There's just a little bit left in the bottle. I'm just going to finish that up. And then, at 3:00 AM, waking up with a headache and unable to go back to sleep. My monger would start chiming in, "Why did you drink so much? What were you thinking? Why did you do that again?"

This was most days of the week for me before I took a long, hard look at my drinking.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, I'm talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.

Today. We're talking about the connection between avoidance and alcohol and anxiety how they tend to go hand in hand. We drink to decrease our anxiety, and then because it feels so good, we drink too much, and the result is an increase in anxiety. My guest today is Andrea Owen, founder of your kick-ass life coaching and author of two books.

One how to stop feeling like shit, 14 habits that are holding you back from happiness and to 52 ways to live a kick-ass life BS, free wisdom to ignite your inner badass and live the life you deserve. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for years, and this is the first time I've had the privilege of talking with her. Because Andrea is a recovering alcoholic and life coach, she has a unique perspective on the topic of avoidance and alcohol. I'm so excited for you to hear our conversation. It is an open and honest and, at times, very vulnerable conversation about alcohol, anxiety, and avoidance. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So its message of alcohol abuse during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn't have come at a better time.

Andrea. And I talk about when she knew she wasn't just a social drinker, why it is so hard to see that drinking is a problem, the dangerous combination of alcohol and anxiety, why alcohol gives us such a false hope as a treatment for our anxiety, the role society plays in drinking and what to do if you want to change your relationship with Alex.

Okay. I am so excited to have Andrea Owen here from your kick-ass life. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for a number of years. We're both gonna feel old here. I started following her when I was like in eighth grade, and she started doing stuff when she was in sixth. So it all works out. So, Andrea, we're talking about anxiety and avoidance. And so Andrea's here to talk to us about avoidance and alcohol, which is a subject near and dear to my heart. And I think something that a lot of my listeners are going to relate to. So I want to start right out of the box. Really big. Let's start with the word alcoholic. It's loaded. It is a loaded word. It's loaded, it is a loaded word.

Andrea: It's heavy and loaded. And I was thinking, as you first started talking when you said alcohol, and I was like, I hope people don't turn it off. Like thinking that I'm going to tell people to, I'm taking your booze away. I'm telling people to stop drinking it.

That's not it; just do what you want. It's just a discussion. And yeah, the word alcoholic is it's certainly not a term of endearment, right? Nobody wishes that they are one at all. It's not a club that really anybody wants to be put in. And that being said, there's a lot of shame and stigma around it still.

What's really interesting is that now as we're recording this in 2020, that word almost has like in the circles that I run in almost has an old-school connotation to it because so many people are getting sober. In the name of wellness and I'm using air quotes over here, which adds a whole other conversation, which I'd like to talk about, but they don't want to be associated as an alcoholic.

So they might say something like I have a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol, or it wasn't serving me anymore. So I decided to quit. I know you and I were talking beforehand about combining alcohol and medication and how it's not good for people. And there are all kinds of reasons that people either massively cut back or decide not to drink anymore.

But at the end of the day, that term alcoholic still is not one that anybody wants to be labeled as right.

Nancy: And I think it doesn't get talked about. And I like, I do like how, just because that word is so loaded. I like how the, the culture is shifting more to, it, it is a continuum that I can be someone, not everyone who is an alcoholic or has a problem with alcohol, or however you want to say it is getting up and putting.

Vodka in their orange juice. There are people that are highly functioning that still have issues with alcohol. And that's the theme where I want to talk about, we're going to talk about today. Cause I think you fall into that and I certainly fall into that. So I know you have shared your story.

I've read your story. Can you share, you have to go into the whole thing, but just share your, you had a very high bottom with your story. Can you share that high bottom just to give people a taste of that?

Andrea: Sure. And I, I want to just circle back real quick to what you just said about the continuum and it's, I don't know what the exact stats are and I'm not an expert or scientist on this, but I would venture to say that the majority of people that have a problem with alcohol are the functioning alcoholics. Are the people who still go to work every day. Hopefully they still have their job right now. There's still functioning as a normal human being. And most people wouldn't know, like some people that are close to them might suspect that they have a problem, but for the most part, they cover it up very well.

And that's part of the problem that becomes so incredibly exhausting for people that have problems like mine. And so my mind, my addiction started long before my drinking became a problem. Chronicly codependent. I struggled with love addiction in my late teens and throughout my twenties, and also had bouts of an eating disorder.

And really, I had this like buffet of addictive coping mechanisms, just really unhealthy coping mechanisms. And I would just choose one based on whatever was going on in my life. And how many people really are ever taught healthy coping mechanisms, not very many of us. And so when I woke up and became conscious of those other problems in my life, I got therapy.

I went to 12 step program for co-dependence and really turned things around. And that was right when my drinking picked up. Ah, so it was I had two little babies at home. My identity changed from being a single working woman to stay at home mom with two little babies. I had also been through a pretty egregious divorce that I hadn't ever really processed, even though I was in a much better healthier marriage at that point.

But, looking back on the trajectory, it was almost like without skipping a beat, I just went like from one thing and do another, and before my drinking, like I was a typical binge drinker in my twenties and just partying with my friends, but I could really take it or leave it, like if there wasn't any alcohol in the house, I wasn’t thinking about it.

If I went to a party and there wasn't any booze there, I wasn't upset by it or at all. But as soon as I let go of all those other coping mechanisms and my drinking started to become the forefront of how I would cope. That's when I was thinking about the inventory in my house, I was thinking about, how much time do I have to drink?

Have a drink before we go to this restaurant or the movies or this party. And I would look at everybody else's drink if I was at a dinner party, just to see. We take inventory, like how much wine is left in this bottle? Can I be the one who pours the rest of it?

Am I getting people going to notice that I've had three drinks and everybody else has only had one? These are the types of things that started consuming me. Like the type of thoughts. I shouldn't say that were consuming me and to get on a more nuanced level. I had two babies at home. I had just started a business, just barely started it.

And I remember there was one day where I was going to take my kids out into the cul-de-sac and pull them around on the wagon, which was just mind numbingly, boring. Like it doesn't say anything about how much I love my children. Like I love my children like the next mother, but it was, I was bored being a stay at home Mom and I had an, there was an empty diet Coke can that was being supposed to be taken out to the recycling. And I was like, I could pour wine into that. Three o'clock in the afternoon was not as acceptable for my neighbors to see me outside with a wine glass in my hand, but I could pour some merlot into a diet Coke can, and nobody would know.

And I did it. And I remember thinking, I had that voice that said, I don't think that's probably healthy. It's just like your conscious comes in and like taps you on the shoulder. And I was like, oh my God I didn't want to hear those voices because I knew that my dad also had a very high bottom and got sober when I was 18.

So I knew. I knew where this ship was headed and I didn't want it to be the case. I did not want to quit drinking. I could not imagine my life without alcohol. I was angry at the thought of giving up alcohol. I was like, no sobriety. Are you kidding me? How does anyone have fun? Sober? I am the fun one.

I'm a fun drunk. Sometimes I get emotional, but for the most part, like I have got myself together. It got to the point where it was things like, I'd have two glasses of wine before my husband would come home at 5:30. And as soon as I heard him pull into the driveway, I would put that dirty wine glass in the dishwasher and pull out a new one.

So he would think I was having my first one. It was things like that, that I knew. I knew on a gut level. We're not okay. Here's the other thing that I knew Nancy, is that I didn't want this to be true. I knew that if I didn't change my behavior, I was not going to get. It's just going to get worse. And I also had read some research that said that for some reason, women's progression into quote, unquote alcoholism or whatever you want to call it is faster than men's.

And they, the only explanation they have is that it's because of the way that we metabolize sugar. And it was it's interesting, but also was defeating because I'm like, I don't want this to be the case. And then I had a breakdown with my husband and I was drunk and I told him that I think I needed to get sober.

And he's just a non-drinker, he's like one of those people who can totally take it or leave it and he just leaves it. So he didn't totally understand. He's are you sure? And anyway, bottom line, is, I called a friend who had almost a decade of sobriety and recovery, and I talked to her about it and she was.

She didn't gasp. Like I thought she would, because I still thought that even I still had so much shame around it that I thought people would judge me, even the people I trusted the most. So it was a very afraid to talk to her about it. And she was not judgmental. All she said was why don't you just quit for 30 days and see what.

And I was like, I can do that. That's easy. It turns out it wasn't easy.

I was like, screw this, I'm drinking. But that was my answer.

Nancy: Was that when you went to the grocery store? Like you thought you were going to, there was some story you shared, like you thought you were going to make it. And it was like four o'clock and then you were like, I'm not going to make it. And you packed up the kids…

Andrea: Oh Yeah, no, that was when I was still drinking. And what I would do with that was the whole thought process of, okay, because this is people who have problems with alcohol. This is what we do. Okay. I drank too much last night. I am. I'm not going to drink tonight or I'm just going to, make it to the weekend.

I'm not going to drink, it's like a Wednesday or something. I'm not going to drink. I'll drink on Friday night. And then we go to the grocery store and we don't buy any alcohol. And we are just pleased as punch with ourselves. And then four o'clock rolls around five o'clock rolls around and the anxiety starts to build.

And that's when I would break and it would be five 30 or six o'clock and I'd be like, I forgot garlic. I need to go to Trader Joe's and I would run down there and get a bottle of two buck Chuck. And I would probably get more than one just to be safe because my anxiety was so high and that happened over and over again.

And it just, it's this constant, like trying to cut back or only drinking on the weekends or only drinking beer and wine. And it's people who don't have a problem with alcohol don't need to moderate. They just don't and if you're finding yourself needing to moderate, you might want to look at the bigger problem.

I'm not here to say anyone's an alcoholic. If you do this, then you are this. I'm not like, and that's part of the frustrating thing is like I went to Google and typed in. Am I an alcoholic? Hoping. On the screen, it would pop up. Yes or no. I wanted an answer flashing letters. Yes. So it was like ambiguous and I don't know.

And so that's when I got sober and there's a much bigger story to that too, but that was really the bottom for me

Nancy: Cause I wrote it down. If I don't change my behavior, it's going to get worse. Like when you said that was like a gut punch to me, just because that's, I think whenever we're making a change or whenever we notice anything, that's what happened.

We have that realization. That if I don't change my behavior, this is going to get worse. And meanwhile, we're still debating it,

Andrea: Right we're still making justifications for our behavior. Yeah we do that with other people too. We do with other people. We do that with other things. Like when we realize it's a bigger problem, whether it's food or whether it's our sedentary lifestyle or sugar or bad love and relationships and what we're tolerating. Bad bosses that were tolerating, like all that we wish and hope and pray that things are going to get better on their own. We want to take the easy route if I just ignore this. Hopefully it will get better if I just cut back on the alcohol, and we try that for a little bit.

If I just make more excuses for this person or my behavior, like we try everything, we try the easy way and that doesn't work and it becomes just infuriating and also. The sense of shame too, that washes over is just that we can't fix it. And I work with a lot of high-achieving smart women and they have climbed the corporate ladder and it's if I'm so smart, if I can keep getting promoted, if I can, if these women are making six figures and like, why can't I figure this out?

Why can't I stop? And it's such a deeper issue than just quitting drinking. Drinking. Drinking is just a symptom really.

Nancy: Because I went through a similar process, I did Brooke Castillo at the time she was doing a stop overdrinking class and I took that and it was a game changer for me.

Like I was really glad I found that, but I was surprised a, how much time I was spending, how you describe that. Thinking about it and drinking, thinking about drinking and then thinking about covering it up and I'm not really hungover, I'm just have a headache or it's just my sinuses or it's just like justifying covering it up, looking forward to it.

I was amazed how. So much of my life was devoted to it that I didn't even realize like all of that, like you said about the taking, like never leaving an empty glass on the table or taking the inventory or are they going to know that

Andrea: waiting for an acceptable hour to pour your drink?

Nancy: There's a lot of mental energy. That goes into it. And also then unhooking, as you said, it's more than just the drinking then unhooking, like the social dynamics of it. And how do I go into a room and not have a drink when that's, what I'm used to doing and all of that stuff. Navigating your life, even if you decide to just want to step back and see what it's like to do a social event without drinking, that's challenging.

Andrea: Oh my God. I went to my 20 year high school reunion and I had just gotten sober, I think, within a year or two before. And it was my first big social event. Sober wow.

You to a high school reunion. Could it get any more anxiety ridden? And I had a good high school experience. Like I know that's not everyone's experience, but I had a lot of friends and but still, I was just like fraught with anxiety and the bar is like the most popular place at a high school reunion.

Everybody's feeling awkward and wanting to put their best foot forward. And yeah, it was tough but I. Did you have a question in there? Because I was going to go off on a tangent about anxiety

Nancy: no no go off

Andrea: Well, I think that whether you do Brooks program or whether you do alcoholics anonymous and there's, I'm so grateful now that there are other options besides just AA that we'll look at the deeper problem.

My hope is that, and I don't know that much about even, the logistics and how even Brooke's program works. I know it has a lot to do with that work, but this is so much more, I just want to emphasize this is so much more than just quitting drinking. I think that for me, What I was do, what I was trying to do by drinking was runaway from my life and to deal with my life.

And I'm like generalizing here because it wasn't even something that I was completely conscious of. It was, I was so afraid to walk into healing from so many things from everything I was trying to avoid. I had, like I mentioned, I had gone through a divorce. Had just tried to sweep under the rug and like blame that person.

And like he was such a jerk and it wasn't meant to be, which is all very true. And to listen to him, it was horrifyingly heartbreaking, ending a 13 year relationship. The identity shift of becoming a mother and just everybody has stuff. Everybody listening to this, you have somebody broke your heart, whether it was your mom or dad, whether it was massive disappointments at work, whether it's being, let, go from your job.

Right now, as we're recording this, we're a global pandemic. I guarantee you there's people facing so many challenges, whether your worst challenge right now is just having to quarantine, right? This is causing collective trauma all over the place. And I use that as an example of things that we want to avoid because they suck.

Like listen I've been sober for many years now and I teach shame resilience, and I still don't want to deal with it. It's not like I look forward to it or it's one of those things. I have yet to meet an expert or facilitator or coach or therapist. Who's I cannot wait to do my EMDR therapy, its so comforting and relaxing (laughter) Like it's the freaking worst. So what's on the other side. That's so incredibly rewarding. And no one can explain that to you. Like you can't really even write that on a sales page. Yeah. You'd just have to believe that it's there.

Nancy: it's not, I as you, so I'm just putting a point on this.

It's not linear. Like I think so many people think, oh I'm remarried now to this amazing man. And so that divorce is in the past, like moving on and if you haven't dealt with it, It's not in the past. I have so many clients that are like why am I even, especially now with the collect, I've, I think a lot of stuff is coming up for people cause they're quarantined and they got all this stuff going on.

And so there are a lot of old traumas are coming back and they're like, this shouldn't be, I dealt with. Back in the timeline it's back there. Yeah. Did you didn't deal with it though?

Andrea: You did deal with it and it's back. Yes. There's that thing like, yeah. Yeah. There's that saying? That says like new level, new devil and I think it's actually new level old devil.

Yeah. I think that the same stuff keeps coming up. I heard a interview with Monica Lewinsky years ago and she was talking about the person interviewing her, asked her about her trauma, obviously she dealt with massive public humiliation and went through years of trauma therapy for it. And the interviewer asked her about it.

And she said, the goal is now not that my trauma is completely gone and disappeared. The goal is now that it's just a hummingbird versus I forget what the metaphor that she used, like a hippopotamus or something to be this huge impact that she would have. Now it's just, now it's just like a little flutter and I love that.

She said that because it was such proof that it never really goes away. Like people are facing probably people who had food scarcity issues when they were a child. Like they go to the grocery store now and that stuff comes back up. And I think it's what I have learned through all of this is to treat myself and other people too.

But just with grace and compassion, when old stuff comes back up, because I am a true believer, like I never used to be super spiritual or somatic. And like I used to like staying up in my head, it was safer, but I have really surrendered now into okay. Trauma, even if it's not trauma, just difficult situations and old memories, they live in your body.

They do. And we can't deny that it's part of just the human experience for this to come up. I think people are being triggered all over the place right now. And people, some people are dealing it for through drink.

Nancy: Yeah. And I think, culturally, it was normed. now and now.

Andrea: It's more than normed it’s almost worshipped.

Yeah. The media feed is packed more so than normal with people talking about drinking and celebrating the culture, that idea

Andrea: Because we don't know what else to say.

Nancy: Yes, very true. Because I said to you, if I hadn't gotten my drinking under control, I know I would be a two bottle or one to two bottle her right now.

I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know what to do.

Andrea: People don’t know what to do with their hands. People don't know what to do. People don't know what to say online. And people also want to find some kind of relief, not just from the physical drinking, but also of what to talk about. It's like we have to have humor through this and I think that's why everybody's talking about the tiger king right now, but also what's another really socially acceptable joke it's drinking.

Yeah. And honestly, And some people think this is such a buzzkill, but I hope that when my children are my age, that drinking is as weird as smoking is now. How, when we see, cause like when you and I were kids, I remember seeing cigarette vending machines inside of a day.

That is unheard. Those are museums now. I'm not that old. (laughing)

Nancy: Exactly. Thank you for saying that.

Andrea: But I want, I hope, like when my kids are in college, even that they are in some kind of history class and there's like ads in there from drinking. And they're like, remember when this was a thing and that it's just that kind of taboo and that we flip the script on it.

Yes. The stats are staggering of Holly Whitaker wrote a great book called quit, like a woman. And she's really great when it comes to stats and doing great research and how horrible drinking is for us. And then the domestic violence, the violence in general, the accidents, the deaths, the sexual abuse, the sexual assault that happens because of drinking will blow your mind. I told my 12 year old son, the other day we were on a walk and we were talking, he had asked me if I'd ever smoked marijuana. And I said, yes. And he looked at me like he was judging me. And I said, listen, he's 12. And I said, listen, I'm going to be honest with you.

I would rather you and your sister smoke pot. If you're going to do anything, I would rather you smoke pot versus drink. And he looked shocked and I'm like, we'll talk more. Later. We don't necessarily want you to smoke pot and there are some parents listening who might be gasping, but when you look at the stats yeah.

I've told them, I say, look at the stats. I don't, I personally don't smoke lot anymore because I'd be smoking all day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. So w one thing I found, which, Is what I really enjoyed about drinking. I call it my fancy drink that I needed a fancy drink. And that right now, like that's like either an N/A beer or a bottle of water, in a fancy glass.

And that kind of signified the end of the day for me ritual it's a ritual. And the power of that was amazing to me that it, in so many ways it's served at the same purpose that it was like, here's your signal to relax. Here's your, have this bubbly drink and this will relax you.

Did you find anything like that? That was. What was underneath what the alcohol was serving?

Andrea: I think I was past that. I think that if I would have said what you just said, that was just an excuse for me personally. I love hearing other people's stories, but I think that what you just described sounds just like a habit.

Like for people like putting on their workout, clothes signals that it's time to go sweat. Getting the leash out for your dog signals that your dog is going to get excited. Cause he, or she knows they're going for a walk, but that's, to me that's easily replaceable. I would just put kombucha in a wine glass and be just as satisfied with the ritual aspect of it.

For me, it was more than just, I would say like the ritual was maybe like 1% of it. 99% of it was running away emotionally and mentally was

Nancy: how the alcohol made you feel. The numbing that the alcohol brought

Andrea: checking out, I just was checking out. And it was also a way to squelch my anxiety, but it ended up, I ended up totally shooting myself in the foot.

Nancy: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about how it pours gasoline on the anxiety, the rebound effect.

Andrea: It's, it's a sedative and it just, I, again, I'm not a scientist, but there, I know that there are studies out there that show that it actually makes. People's anxiety worse and it affects our sleep.

That's one part of it. I was not, I was drinking like, I think back on this and I'm like, how did I even function? Also granted, I got sober when I was 36 or 37. So I was, it was younger, somewhat younger. I still my thirties, but I would drink an entire bottle of wine. And then I would take three Tylenol PM.

That's the only way I can sleep. But then I was getting up at a pretty early, had two toddlers and I go for a three mile run. Oh, my pushing two toddlers in a baby jogger. And in a way it was to punish myself. It was to prove that I was okay if I could still get up in the morning.

And also my tolerance was high. If I could get up in the morning. Drink water and drink coffee and go for a run. Then clearly I don't have a problem. It's moms who sleep in until 10 and don't work out at all and they stay in their sweats all dayAnd I remember watching this was back when Oprah still had her show, but there was a woman on there who they were highlighting, women who are alcoholics, who were mothers.

And there was a woman who had, she hit a bottle of Chardonnay, like in the laundry room. So it's I was like, okay, then that's clearly an alcoholic and I am not one, cause I don't have to hide my alcohol. And it's funny. I ended up meeting her. That woman that was on Oprah. She had a blog and I had reached out to her and we ended up being in the same circle of recovery.

And I told her that story, she's you have no idea how many women told me the same thing. Wow. And but yeah, like that was anxiety was something also that I had such a shame and stigma around because it was a lack of control. Like I wanted to control how other people perceived me. I wanted to control how my body was the way it looked the way it behaved. And when I was having a panic attack or my anxiety, or I would just wake up with anxiety, to me that signaled total and complete weakness, it signaled that I was less than. That there was something wrong with me that I was broken. And I also didn't want anyone to know.

So if I could squelch that anxiety, even if it was for a couple of hours, then that was all that I needed. I would deal with the repercussions later, which was the next morning or the middle of the night waking up in a cold sweat at 3:00 AM.

Nancy: Yeah. Which is fascinating how our brains work. That, that break is worth it,

Andrea: It was, and it's interesting, you hear people who don't understand addiction or people that struggle with any kind of substance. And they say you had kids like, wouldn't that be enough for you to be able to quit for your kids? And I remember right before I got sober, my daughter was about six months old.

She must have been yeah. Six months old because it was my birthday. And we were, there was where we lived. There was like a community pool and jacuzzi and. I had, I was sitting on the edge of the jacuzzi with my feet in the water. And I had taken a Vicodin, which was my husband's prescription. Cause he had shoulder surgery and it was like out on the counter.

So I was like, why not? It's my birthday. So my mentality took if I get in and then had a couple of glasses of wine and the four of us had gone down to the pool and my husband was there too, but I had my daughter on my lap and she was six months old. So she was, like not walking yet, but active in my arms.

And I remember thinking that I was buzzed enough that if she fell in the water, I don't know how quick I would be getting her out, and the bubbles were going. And I remember having that thought this is dangerous. Like, the buzz that I have is dangerous.

And even that wasn't enough. But it was, but honestly, like it was those thoughts. It was, knowing that pouring wine and a diet coke in the middle of the day wasn't okay. Feeling supervised when my daughter was that little near the water wasn't okay. So all those thoughts started to stack up, which later pushed me to get sober.

Nancy: So then after the 30 day where you could, you did say, yeah. So then how did start really getting sober in those early days?

Andrea: In the early days I went to alcoholics anonymous. I went to meetings, the 12 step program meetings, and it was enormously helpful for me. I also had watched my dad go through it.

So I was familiar with the program. I also had gone to 12 step programs for co-dependence. So again, I had a sense that this could work for me, and I know that alcoholics anonymous is not for everyone. I also have my feelings surrounded. I don't go to meetings anymore. I think it needs to be, I think it needs to be updated, but alas.

That's a long shot.

Nancy: I agree with you.

Andrea: It saves a lot of people's lives. So I did, and then I actually relapsed about five months later, which is quite a story on vanilla extract and NyQuil, if you want me to tell that quick story? Oh my gosh. So I had four or five solid months of sobriety and recovery and was working with a sponsor and doing all the things they were supposed to do.

But still in the back of my mind was feeling like my story wasn't bad enough. Like I'd go to meetings and hear stories of people, getting their kids taken away, having DUIs, getting arrested, losing their jobs, losing everything, and coming from a very high bottom I've look around and I'm like this isn't me.

There wasn't really anyone there I could relate to. And they kept telling us like, listen for the similarities, not the differences. And. I remember I was at a very small meeting and someone said, I don't know about the rest of you, but I was really desperate when I got sober and everyone's nodding their head.

And I'm like, I wasn't, my rock bottom had come years before with severe co-dependence, which is another story for another episode, I got conned and my ex-boyfriend lied about having cancer to cover up his drug addiction anyway. So that rock bottom was back there, but mine wasn't. And so I. Went home, like a few days after that, my husband and I had gotten into an argument, which was pretty rare.

Like we have a really great relationship and we got into an argument and I got super triggered. Cause I was still dealing with all the emotional stuff from my divorce and he left the house to go for a walk and I'm like, this is it. He's leaving. I'm going to be a single mom and what am I going to do?

We had just moved, like just going through that whole anxiety spiral of being abandoned. And so I thought to myself, like I immediately wanted to drink because that's what we want to do. We want to change the way we feel really is what it is. I don't like feeling this way, triggered and abandoned and nervous and anxious and angry and sad and all of these things like how can I quickly change the way I feel?

Because this whole being like sober stuff, like actually having to be in my feelings is not fun for somebody else. Not for me. So I didn't want to break my sobriety. Like I didn't want to drink, but I had heard another AA speaker talk about vanilla extract and how she used to drink vanilla extract. So I go to the pantry.

The very back of the pantry, find a bottle of vanilla extract, take a swig of it. And then I look at it that was like sediment all along the bottom. And I look in, it had expired in 2005. Oh. And it was, he was 2011. So it expired six years earlier. So I was like, that's gross. I put that back. And then also it heard that you could drink cough syrup and get a buzz.

So do you see like my thought process there? It's I was looking for loopholes. I still wanted to get a buzz. But I didn't want to drink, like I would've been too to shame to go back to an AA meeting, having drank alcohol. And it just is amazing to me that I thought that I could get away with this is when I really realized I had a problem.

So I went and chugged some cough syrup and stood there for a few minutes and nothing was happening. And then I just, I call it like the case of the F*ck-its, where I just found a bottle of wine. And started drinking it. And then later on that a few hours later, my husband must've come home and my son was bouncing jumping on his bed and I was sitting right outside of the door, on the ground.

And there was like this armoire thing. And I d totally gave up and was just drinking straight out of the bottle at that point. And I had the bottle in there and I grabbed it and drank from it and he stopped jumping on the bed. He was four at the time he stopped jumping on the bed and he has this huge smile on his face.

And he goes, mommy, what are you doing? And it probably looked funny, that I was drinking from a big bottle of wine and I stopped and I looked at him and I said, I don't know. I don't know, honey. And that was the last drink that I ever had. That was September 27th, 2011. That was September 26th, 2011.

Cause my sobriety date is the 27th and I went back to AA and I told everybody what happened. I think I needed to have that relapsed because I was questioning if I really had a problem with alcohol or not. And it really, you can call it a problem with alcohol or you can call it a problem with wanting to run away from my life.

You could call it a problem of not being able to be in my feelings and my emotions, not being able to be in my discomfort. I did not know how to do that. I was like, it was like throwing a cat into a bathtub with full of water. You know how they're just like climbing. That's how I was with feelings.

I just was so incredibly uncomfortable. And that's when I really decided, okay, this is so much more than about the booze. Me learning how to process my feelings and getting really vulnerable and learning resilience. It just better coping mechanisms. So that's really also in the trajectory of my professional life changed because I never thought that I would be teaching shame resilience, never.

I started a business called your kick ass life. Do you think that this was on the repertoire? It was not, but the universe had other plans

Nancy: So, the idea of loopholes, of justification, of the mental energy that you're spending on it. I can remember I was, when I was doing my counseling training, I did an internship at a addiction place. And at the time I was a big drinker. And so I don't know what the word would be. The justifying that, you know, that here I'm a big drinker, but I'm sitting in every day in the group program with the men who are, but they all had REALLY BAD problems (Laughter)

Andrea: , like sure. But not you. (laugher)

Nancy: Exactly And I was assigned to this kid who was like 22 and he had four DUIs and he just kept saying, I don't have a drinking problem.

I just have a driving while I'm drinking problem. And I at the time was yeah, part of my brain was like, yeah, he's right. He doesn't really have a problem because I knew people that had DUIs in my circle. I never had a DUI but that idea of justifying, and that I, a part of me was like with him, believing it like a whoa to me, then I went back to my supervisor and I told him, and he was like, four DUI, That's a problem at 22. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I didn't tell him that. I was thinking this isn't a problem. Cause I, I just told him and he was like, wow. He said for DUIs, like how could he like tells you the warped thinking of him that he's just justifying it with I don't have a drinking problem. I have a driving problem. And then I was like, yeah. And then also tell us the warped thinking of me that I'm with him and I'm supposed to be his counselor here, that was my first. That was my first kind of there's something else going on here.

Andrea: Yeah. And it's just, I think it also it's what I think it would be different if he had gotten pulled over for driving under the influence of cocaine, which we know isn't really a thing, but I'm using that example because we don't put that in the same category. Yeah. If I went to a party and everyone's, like doing lines of cocaine and I'm like, oh I quit.

People wouldn't be like, what, why? Unless that's all we did in his friend circle, but I'm just, maybe this is a bad example, but like alcohol is the only drug that we allow so much laxity with. And we also ostracize, I know that my son, a dramatic word, but like when you are sober, you realize very quickly that everybody drinks, but you, and that people are almost insulted when you refuse a drink or you are the sober one at the party.

It's awkward and I am glad to see that it's changing, but it's still a thing.

Nancy: So I have a just a question. I

Andrea: probably have an answer.

Nancy: So what I've noticed for me and with clients is that, alcohol just enhances all the feelings. So I, when I couldn't, cause I couldn't tap into my feelings, like similar to you, like very similar story.

It's all up hear. Then recently also went through Brené Brown shame, resilience training, and also was like, no, but anyway, never in a million years thought I'd be the first thing that I'd be telling people is you got to acknowledge it. Never thought that would come out of my mouth.

So I would drink to tap into those and then become overly emotional to cause, I needed a way to tap into those feelings, but I didn't know how to do it unless, and the drinking would help that.

Andrea: You think that the drinking is helping? I probably seemed like the, my first thought was like, my heart just breaks for that part of you.

That is so wanting to express. Your feelings and it sound, I make up that not only do you want to express your feelings, but you probably wanted someone else to witness them as well.. And also be received in a supportive, loving, compassionate way.. Because we've all had it go wrong. I think everyone has experienced it where it's gone the other way.

And that's what makes us decide to hold them all in. That's where the term put your walls up. Don't let anybody in comes in. So that's my first thought is oh my gosh, I want it. I want to ask you if you want a consensual hug. I just, and I think that, yeah, there's so many people who are experiencing that and just aren't conscious of it.

Yeah. And how many times have we all cried in the bathroom with our girlfriends? Drunk? Yes. We're all wanting that, not drunk at all, wanting to be able to turn to our girlfriends and say, I had the shittiest week, my partner was such an asshole to me, and here's what happened. And I felt so small when we had this argument and to have it be received with, oh my gosh, tell me everything.

How can I support you? Yeah. Instead of. Oh, it probably wasn't that bad or that was nothing. Let me tell you about what happened to me at work, and it's, that's all at the end of the day is what we want. That's why this quarantine is so hard because we are meant for connection and love and to be around each other, even just socially and.

I think that's what the conversation this whole conversation is about is that we were, one of the things I realized through sobriety is that the one thing I wanted the most was intimacy and love and trust with other people, but it was also the thing I was the most terrified of. Yes.

Typical, like both outcomes are terrible in my mind. And I think that I am not the only one who feels that way.

Nancy: Yeah. I definitely cause that's what I do have to just clarify that, but I didn't know that at the time, like that's looking back, I can look in retrospect myself and be like, oh, that's what I was doing.

Was it allowed me to tap into my emotions by, over drinking But I can, cause I can remember also that my husband and I would fight more, when I was drinking and I would have the story that when we drink, cause he's a drinker. I mean he likes to drink. And he still does, even though I don't, he oh, we have these great conversations and we really hash everything out and it's so wonderful when we're really, in it together drunk.

But you don't remember it the next day? No. And it usually ended. On some stupid fight and we never fight to where the same as you, sounds the same as you guys. And we would end up in some, like arguing over something ridiculous. And that was another sign for me that that was what I started realizing this isn't fun anymore,

Andrea: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think that when you are drinking, you have no emotional boundaries at all. Either you're shoving them all down or you are lashing out when it's really not about the thing you're fighting about. It's something else that either you don't understand or that you're too afraid to talk about.

Or you are completely overstepping emotional boundaries by dumping something on someone else who is either not equipped to handle it, or you're having very high expectations of how they're supposed to handle it both. And it just, it's just never a good outcome is thinking about that. That guy you're talking about the 22 year old, there's no one makes any good decisions while they're drinking.

Maybe I'm maybe there are some good like business ideas that have come from that, but just anybody really make any good decisions. I've never made a good decision while drinking.

Nancy: No. Yeah, no, not at all. Yeah, but I'm so glad that we tapped into that feelings piece. Like really hit that. Cause I think that is a, that is at the crux of this for many of my clients is he is either trying to avoid or trying to enhance so that someone can meet them.

Where they think someone will hear them and it doesn't work.

Andrea: It's we're always trying to get our needs met at the end of the day. We're always trying to get our needs met and Harville Hendrix wrote a really great book called getting the love you want. And the gist of it is that we're always trying to heal our childhood wounds through our partners our romantic partners.

And I don't think it's even just with our romantic partners, it can be with our friends as well. And I just, I think. To tag onto that. I did not want, I just wanted to quit drinking. I didn't want to deal with the feeling stuff like in the beginning. I was like, no, I just want the quitting drinking to solve all my problems.

I don't want to talk about my childhood. I don't want to talk about my divorce. I don't want to talk about all my flaws. I didn't want any part of that. It made me wish that I had a zipper and I could just like unzip my skin and crawl out of it. Like I did not like even still I'm like, oh, I don't want to play principal development life coach anymore.

I just want to talk about new countertops. I just, it's exhausting and I'm not going to lie and tell you it's super fun and it's exhausting. But I think I got to a place where I was like, It's not the other way isn't working anymore. Yeah. And I knew from experience from my first marriage and also watching my parents' marriage, unfortunately fall apart.

A lot of it was due to my dad's drinking. Is that if I kept this up, there's no way I could have the marriage that I put on my vision board. There's no way I could have the business that I dreamed of. I had so many. I was so full of energy and enthusiasm just as a personality trait, but I knew that there was no way I was going to accomplish all these goals.

If I was just pouring alcohol on it all day long. And it was mildly devastating. And I think, I just want to mention that I had to grieve not drinking anymore. Because I had so many fun memories from my twenties and, even my early thirties, like before everything really started to fall apart, they say the alcoholics or even people that just have problems with drinking, like there are three categories there's fun as the first category.

And then the second category is fun with problems. And then the third category is just problems and you can move up. Like you can move from fun to fun with problems. To just problems, but you can never go back. And we're always trying. So I had gotten to the point where, my twenties was really just fun.

I didn't have any responsibilities. I didn't have any kids. I wasn't even like super ambitious with my career. It was just fun. And then I moved into fun with problems and I was like, Ooh, I just want to go back to fun. Maybe if we go to Vegas for the weekend, I could get back there. Yeah. And it just, and there would be days when I would just pine for those old days when it was really fun anymore. But I had to remind myself that's not what my life looked like. It was fun with problems and I was just headed for problems. And so I just want to reiterate, like it's okay to grieve your old drinking self. I had to do that. And I was denying that for probably a few years and just really ashamed of where I had ended up.

And I was like, you know what? I had a lot of really good times with my friends and even still something will come a song will come on Spotify, some Mariah Carey song, and I take a screenshot of it and send it to of my girlfriend. And I'm like, remember when we used to, that's about it and laugh and that's okay.

It's it doesn't, it's not triggering for me or anything like that. But I say all that to you have to feel whatever feelings you're feeling.

Nancy: Because it becomes a part of your identity. Like I was the fun one who never turned down a drink and always was game for shots

Andrea: a drinking game. Yeah. You and I would've had so much fun (laughing)

Andrea: and so many problems

Nancy: And you go out into the world and you've changed. And people are like, oh, you're not that the fun one anymore.

Andrea: You make up that people are going to say that.

Nancy: YES! Nicely said yeah. Thanks for saying that for that. Thank you for that

Andrea: . Yeah. You don't know. And I think you, you have to get to a place where you're okay with whatever they think.

I still have people who are like, are you sure you were an alcoholic? And that's dangerous for someone people, because then they were like, maybe I wasn't, maybe I'm okay. Maybe I can just have a glass of wine with dinner. And I have to just be okay with, they didn't know that side of me. They only knew fun Andrea, who would go to the Mexican restaurant and have a margarita. They didn't know the Andrea who was drinking, four or five glasses of wine every night on a Tuesday with a toddler on her hip. Two very different lives. Cause

Nancy: Because I ended up going back to drinking and dipping into it, experimenting and I never could get back to fun.

And I think that's why I eventually stopped. I realized I'm never going to get back to fun. And so I'm just going to stop searching for it.

Andrea: Were you disappointed?

Nancy: Yes.

I was just going to say which I was very disappointed about like that.

When you said that about the grieving, that really resonated with me. Cause it is, I've noticed what I've noticed is during this pandemic time, as we said, I would be drinking more, but I have like, when my husband goes to get a drink, I'm like, oh, I want to have a drink. And I want to be able to, to numb for right now, too.

But then when I take that story all the way through, I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to wake up in the middle of the night, feeling crappy. And I don't want to, get up in the morning, beat myself up. And I

Andrea: Really think through the drink, that's an alcoholics anonymous term, think through the drink.

So you have to just completely think about what would the next step be and on. But yeah, I still think that too. And I think it's part of that. I miss the ritual and I'm missing out on fun and part for me as someone who identifies as an addict, I also think that's the addict part of my brain.

Who's trying to get me to go back. Say that for addicts. The addict part of us is always on the sidelines warming up. Oh, the coach like put me in I'm ready. Anytime. Something really stressful happens. Like I lost my dad in 2016 and I had a my sobriety was checked just a couple of weeks ago, like when it was really hitting the fan with this pandemic, like that first one.

The week of March 9th, people were all like looking around, like what's happening. And then the following week that we get the 16th was like, really, when everybody started screaming that week I had a meltdown and was just like, oh my God, what I wouldn't give to, to be drinking again. And that is like immediately where I need to call my friends and say, this is what happened and do whatever I need to do for my own recovery and sobriety.

But, we, I always remind myself. Humans are meant for times like this. Imagine what our ancestors have been through this, the fact that we are alive, that our mothers, made it through childbirth, let alone the crisis and wars and famine. And unless you came from like aristocracy liquids, many of us, like our ancestors went through hell and I.

We were meant for this. We were meant to bounce back from this and not have to be drunk the whole time. Yeah. That is comforting to me to know that like I'm going to, this is not going to emotionally kill me.

Nancy: Yeah. That's a great way to look.

Andrea: I was going to say this isn't going to kill me.

And I'm like for some people that's a very real fright for people who are immune compromised. But emotionally, like my feelings are not going to murder me. Yeah,

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. I think that's helpful too. People. Okay. So someone's listening to this, they're intrigued. They want to learn more.

I know you have some resources, , can, you name your resources and the others you think might be helpful

Andrea: . I clearly like to talk. They have my old podcast where I interview really awesome people. And I also coach people on my show and have solo episodes as well. You can find at your kick-ass life podcast, wherever you.

Podcasts and I, what do I have going on right now? I'm writing my third book, but that's not going to be out for awhile. And I'm going to do a writing program with a colleague of mine. So that's fun. Follow me on Instagram. That's where you can find everything that's going on, your kick ass life on Instagram

Nancy: and her amazing dog as well

Andrea: She's in my stories, my coworker she's there now. I have three co-workers at my house for me. I like them a lot.

Nancy: I said that to my husband. I said, the good thing is you're the only person in the world I want to be trapped with during a pandemic. Of course, I said that. I still say that, but it's funny how each week that becomes a different I have to remind myself of that.

Andrea: So grateful that I really get along with my husband. I know that's not the case for many people or they're single and they're by themselves in their apartments. I just, I, my heart is just breaking for everyone. Who's really struggling right now. And that's everyone to some degree yeah. Yeah.

I'm thinking of all of you.

Nancy: Yeah. And you did a special series on your podcast.

Andrea: I did for drinking It's the best way to find those episodes is to go to your kick ass life.com/recovery. And you can find them there. You can listen there on the site, or you can find all the numbers and then search and I, apple podcasts or wherever you can find them there.

And that's probably the best way to find all those recovery episodes.

Nancy: Okay, Andrea, thank you so much. This was fabulous.

Andrea: I had fun and I love talking about this and DM me on Instagram. If you heard this and didn't want to just say hi, I love saying hi to people who heard me on specific topics.

Nancy: I love this interview for so many reasons, but the main point I want to leave you with is alcohol use runs on a continuum and it is a personal decision. No one can tell you that you have a problem with alcohol, except for yourself. For Andrea. Her bottom was very high for others. It takes much more drama and devastation before they noticed they've a problem.

Maybe this conversation resonated with you. Maybe you want to change your relationship with alcohol, like guy. Trust me five years ago. I never thought I could live without alcohol, especially during a pandemic. When my anxiety is sky high, it isn't always comfortable. It isn't always easy, but it is a thousand times better than the 3:00 AM wake up calls of what did you do last night

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 129: Avoiding Through Social Media

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Bailey Parnell, founder of #safesocial about how we engage in avoidance through social media.

Social media is one of my personal favorite methods of avoiding and as you can imagine it has only gotten worse in recent weeks.

I often find myself obsessively making the rounds on social media: Twitter to Facebook to Instagram to email and back again. Stories about being isolated at home, questioning the seriousness, tips for cooking during a crisis, hoarding TP...

UGH!  This has to stop!

This is a conversation I was having with myself even before the pandemic crisis. It has only gotten worse since the shelter in place orders went down.  

Social media is an amazing catch-22 – it calms your need to be vigilant while simultaneously making you more anxious. 

All this month we have been exploring the ways that avoidance shows itself in relation to anxiety. So far we have talked with Jacquette Timmons about avoidance and money and Erica Drewry about avoidance and food. 

Today we are talking Bailey Parnell about how we engage in avoidance through social media. I am so excited to bring you this eye-opening conversation with Bailey, founder & CEO of SkillsCamp and #safesocial. After Bailey noticed her own abuse of social media she decided to research and learn more about this issue. Her approach to reducing our social media is unique and very doable. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why the research that says our anxiety increase with social media is not accurate

• Why our tendency to demonize social media only makes it worse

• Baliey’s 5 steps to using social media safely – AKA, Safe Social

• What to do when you find yourself down the rabbit hole and mindlessly scrolling

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Bailey Parnell Website

• SkillsCamp
  

• #safesocial

• Instagram: @baileyparnell

+ Read the Transcript

Bailey: But if abstinence from social media, without consequences, not an option for youth of today, the question then becomes how we practice safe, social and what emerged in my research and in others literature, was that the most important thing bar none was how you were feeling offline at the time.

Nancy: Once again, I found myself obsessively making the rounds on social media, Twitter to Facebook, to Instagram, to email, and then back again, stories about being isolated at home, questioning the seriousness tips for cooking during a crisis hoarding toilet paper OD. This has to stop. This is a conversation I had with myself before the pandemic crisis, and it has only gotten worse since the shelter in place orders went down.

Social media has this amazing catch 20. It calms your need to be vigilant while simultaneously making you more anxious, avoiding through social media is one of my personal favorites. As you can imagine, it has only gotten worse in recent weeks.

You’re listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, I'm talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today. We're talking about how we engage in avoidance through social media. I'm so excited to bring you this eye-opening conversation with Bailey Parnell, founder and CEO of skills, camp, and hashtag safe social after Bailey noticed her own abuse of social media.

She just started to research and learn more about this issue. Her approach to reducing our social media is unique and very doable Bailey. And I talk about. Why the research that says our anxiety increased with social media is not exactly accurate. Why our tendency to demonize social media only makes it worse.

Her five steps to using social media safely, AKA hashtag safe, social, and what to do when you find yourself down the rabbit hole and mindlessly scroll. Okay. In continuing our month of looking at ways we avoid. I'm so excited to bring you Bailey Parnell, who is going to talk about safely using our social media with her business, hashtag safe social, which she's going to tell us more about as we talk.

So welcome

Bailey: I'm glad to be here sharing this information.

Nancy: We were just talking before I hit record how with everything going on with COVID-19, social media has become a way for me to cope even more. So, I was confessing to Bailey that I have a social media addiction.

And so, I'm very interested in picking her brain. That stuff. Okay. So how I got to know Bailey was she does an amazing Ted talk that she did three years ago. And in the Ted talk, Bailey, you talk to about your little come to Jesus of going four days without social media, which I could so relate to.

What that was like and how it changed your life.

Bailey: Yeah. So, at the beginning of the Ted talk, I share a story of how I went to visit my sister who was over in beautiful Jasper Alberta, and the west coast of Canada mountains. Everything you can imagine in terms of the most beautiful, okay. Doors. And we were going for four days, but this had been the first time that I had taken a vacation at that point.

And over four years, and it was just a four-day vacation. And so, what I mean is no work vacation with no phone, no social media going dark, essentially. And on that vacation, I definitely felt like I was experiencing Phantom vibration syndrome where I would go to check, and it wasn't there. Or I was like going to grab it to take a photo.

It was Stopper to make you realize that was your inherent reaction. And I know fast forward, I know today that it was withdrawals. It was definitely your brain and your habits actually reacting to it, not being there and subconsciously. And so, there was actually even negative repercussions such as a stress, but that was just one small experience for me.

The reason why I started this work actually. Far beyond it. It was certainly, it wasn't overnight, but it was definitely as a result of a few experiences because before my business now I used to work at Ryerson university and I worked particularly in a role that was social marketing, digital marketing, but within student affairs, so everything outside the classroom that support student success and things like health and wellness and learning support and all that jazz.

This is now going back to 2015, but at that time there was a bunch of news articles though. They only give you one side of the story saying that social media is causing depression in youth. And here I am telling youth to be on social media. And I'm again, like you just heard I'm experiencing some of this stuff myself.

And so, part of the motivator was, yeah. I someone who is working in social media, theoretically, it was my life at the time personally and academically, if this was doing this to me, what on earth was it doing to everybody? And so that, and I need to make sure if I'm going to ask you to be spending time with me here, that they can do it safely.

And so that was all together. Part of the impetus for this work, which is now almost five years ago. Wow.

Nancy: So, when you say they're only giving you one side of the story, cause we've all read those articles. What do you mean?

Bailey: Yeah. So, I'm very glad you asked that because this is a big piece that I often want to get out.

Naturally when you read these articles, a lot of reporting on any research is just the big story. And it's usually the negative story. And so, a lot of the articles that I could sell point you to today are things like social media causing depression in youth or social media relates to depressive symptoms and teenagers, and a lot of this stuff.

And so, when I went into my. Master's research. I actually thought that I would find a more explicit correlation between time on social media and the rising levels of anxiety and depression. And what I actually found was no consistency in the research at all. And some people, yeah. Some people said that, yes, there's an issue.

Some people said, there's no statistical relevancy here. We cannot comment on whether or not this is causation or just correlation. In fact, most said they believe it's correlation, not causation. And then most importantly for me was that there was also a whole group that's not talked about. That's. Wait a sec, this is actually having positive impact on our participants, improving their mental health.

So, then I was looking at, okay what is always the same and what was always the same was that when there was a mediator introduced in the middle, such as I feel envy more, or I compare myself more or I feel lonely more than it was always a bad situation. And so, what that told me was that it was actually less about the networks themselves and more about who you are offline going into the networks.

And that also remained true in my own research with my own participants, which was more qualitative and hearing from people describe their own experiences. And what you'll find, which is probably unsurprising to both of us here was that 100% of them also gave many positive experiences of using social media things.

Connection, like learning laughing finding community inspiration, motivation, all this stuff. And so, there was a group of people now, including myself, which are having a good time on social media and it's improving their effect. It's actually making them feel good. What are they doing?

Like what's going on here? That's making a lot of people have a good time and what's going on. That's making a lot of people have a bad time, was where my work went. And what

Nancy: Did you find, is there, did you find it.

Bailey: Yeah. Yeah, so now what my work focuses on and certainly the research and even the Ted talk as you'll start to see was getting there.

I just wasn't as developed as I am now three years later. But if abstinence from social media, Without consequences, not an option for youth of today. The question then becomes how do we practice safe, social and what emerged in my research and in others literature, was that the most important thing bar none was how you were feeling offline.

At the time. So for example, if it almost sounded actually exactly like this, if I went to the gym that day and I feel good, then I see these fitness models. And I think okay, hashtag goals. But if I didn't go to the gym and I feel dusty, I see them and think I hate them. Okay. And again, that's not about the influencer, that's not about the content because it's about how you, what state you're in is changing, how you perceive the content, because the exact same piece of content from the exact same person can have a very different impact on two different people and a very different impact on the same person in two different hours.

Nancy: That is fascinating. And I, but I'm biased. I can see that in my life even in the past week, when we're recording this, we're at the beginning, it seems like this total orienting. And I know at the beginning of the day when I get on social and I'm feeling okay and I'm I get on it.

Okay. Excited to see what people are doing. And it builds that sense of community for me. And then by the end of the day, when my anxiety is higher, I just get on it and everything. I see this makes me feel like crap because I'm feeling like crap. Is

Bailey: that kind of what you're. Yes, totally. And it can be self-fulfilling loop because especially in a time like this, which is high stress, and everybody's got maybe more time to fail and or feeling bored.

So, it's all ends of the spectrum. Maybe you're stressed. You go online. More news and more trauma and more issues related to COVID and then you see this person posted an opinion that you think you disagree with, and then you see this person sharing their upset story. And it's just becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe even making it a little bit worse.

However, if you were feeling good and I've experienced this myself you might go online and be laughing at all the funny names being about COVID right now. And so that, that would be considered a positive experience after social media. Cause it made you happier, made you laugh more and hopefully all those things, maybe you're connecting with friends or family over video chat or something like that.

Yeah.

Nancy: So, what I like about your approach, which is different than how I've been approaching it, which is I just shamed myself whenever I get on it. Even if it's giving me, even if it's giving me good stuff, like I'm, like Facebook. I'm going to say it is so much more enjoyable now everyone's on it.

People are posting funny memes. I'm in touch with people that I haven't been in touch with, but every time I get on it, I'm like, you're a terrible person. You shouldn't be on this. So, you just said that common, how do you. Unhooking that, like that mic, there's so many messages out there about how this is so terrible.

And you're saying, whoa, it's not terrible but it, you need some time.

Bailey: Yeah, I'm saying that it doesn't have to be tight right now. It's not a great situation that I admit, especially for young people, but the reason I believe to my core enough to start another organization. It's terrible for, because we're not practicing safe social, because there's not a general understanding.

Of course, it's just new. Like it's just so recent in history that we have this risky behavior. We've very much known. Now the risks associated with using a risky behavior like sex or drugs or alcohol, simply being something where you expose yourself to potential harm. That's it. And we know that's the case with social media.

So, you have this risky behavior. That's really quite recent in terms of the grand scheme of history. And you have a lot of youth who are in a very normal stage of life, where peer to peer comparison is very normal pre social media, and now it's quantified it doesn't end and it's directly tied to you.

And that doesn't change when you become an adult. We have right now. And then of course, once you're in this risky behavior, maybe you are experiencing stress. Maybe you are being harassed or you feel depressed as a result, or you're frustrated that you can't focus. And the traditional supports that exists for other risky behaviors.

Don't exist here because maybe you want to tell a parent that you're being harassed, or maybe you want to share with a therapist, how you feel, or a teacher or an educator. And just based on the time of history, largely those people right now did not grow up with social media themselves. And sometimes a lot of them want to say things like my God, who cares if they didn't like your phone or get your head up.

Oh, go outside, like all this stuff, but honestly, just try telling the alcoholic to just put down the drink. It doesn't work that way. So, I guess to answer your question, bring it back to the positive a little bit. Yeah. Cause I rant a little bit because it's frustrating.

Nancy: No, I appreciate it. Rant away. Yeah

Bailey: It's frustrating. The lack of empathy for what is so clear to me and why I try to share this information with everyone, because I know what it's doing to the brain and then. There are forces outside of just a decision to just stop. So, I have my five steps towards safe social. And the first step is building awareness and understanding much like other risky behaviors.

So, I'm very glad to be on this podcast and that people who might be listening might even understand if they watch the Ted talk, what is a social currency or what is a highlight reel or social comparison? What are even the potential risks of using you need to start there? Do you even understand the potential risks and what to look out for?

Okay. Step two is moderating your consumption, just like any other risky behavior. Mine of choice as well.

I love one, but am I getting drunk every day? All day? No, I'm not because we have figured out how to keep ourselves safe, how to get the benefits of this delicious little effort.

With social media, it's asking yourself questions do I do this because I need it. And I feel that I need it. And my body's having a reaction when I'm not using or because I want it. Am I actually consuming things? Bring the value or bring positive at all, like connection or community or humor, or am I feeling frustrated after I use, do I forget what I've been doing for the last hour?

And so, part of what I'm doing now is creating tools to help people figure that out. Like a self-assessment called, are you addicted to social media, which is asking questions like, because I know that I know this better than everybody else. So, I want to create a self-assessment tool that can help you walk through questions without me in front of you all the time.

So maybe even things like that you would ask with other addictions, has this affected your relationships? Have you ever caught people telling you're hello; I'm talking to you, or you don't spend time with me, or have you blacked out and not remembered what you've been doing for the last hour or have you lied in maneuvered situations to go?

Social media, say you're going to the bathroom, but you're not, there's so many that you can, that's going to be quite a long self-assessment, but that's step two. Step three is building the offline soft skills and things like resilience and self-awareness and stress management. So that no matter what comes your way, because we can't control, what's going to always come our way on the Instagram explore page that you're better able to handle it and prevent yourself.

And understand yourself and know when you should not be taking it. If you are feeling depressed or lonely, and that's not the time to take a hit, unless you've seriously curated your feeds to be people that you feel truly connected to. And like they support you. And then step four is modeling good behavior.

And making sure that, especially for adults that, you're not there saying, get your head out of your phone, but you've been on your email, the whole didn't work and modeling, like modeling relationships with technology and social media or that you're not there saying I'm spreading hate. Yeah.

Complaining all the time on social media, but then also complaining that it's a toxic place, even though you have all these kids’ reading what you're posting now, you're showing them that this is okay, that's the way you behave in this space. Yeah. So, it's just all that sort of stuff. And then finally, step five is holding them responsible parties, accountable and like any other risky behavior.

It's a multi-pronged approach. So, governments can do more. The companies themselves can do more parents, educators, media are. So that's the five steps towards things.

Nancy: So, I love your comparison, which I think is dead on. And I'd never thought about it that way of alcohol.

All these other addictions and the idea that, you know, we, it, because it's so recent.

Put that in our brains, but that is, I'll be sitting, having dinner with my husband and we're in front of the TV usually. So, we already have a screen and then halfway through the meal, we're both on our phones, whether he's playing a game or I'm, and we might even still be talking, but we grabbed our phones and.

There goes our brain. So, tell me about what it does to the brain.

Bailey: Yeah. So, we are still figuring out to be honest. And I'm the first to admit that this is recent, that we're in the middle of this as we go. So, all the answers don't exist yet. For example, we don't have 50-year old’s that went through puberty with social media.

They don't exist yet. So, we don't really know the long-term consequences, positive and or negative of this many stimuli for the brain. However, what we do know already is that we are conditioning the brain to react to social media and that the addiction is very much by every measure, widespread addiction right now.

So, both physiologically and habitually. So, on one side of that, we have, say for example, chemicals like dopamine or serotonin, oxytocin, those feel-good chemicals being released every time you get a or a shot of that feel good chemical. So, what do you do to feel good? Again? You take just one more hit you take just one more post and that comment that makes you feel good.

So, we know that, especially for youth, possibly from a very young age where the brain is not fully developed yet that we are actually conditioning a response that doesn't exist in adults right now. And that's another reason why they. They might be, are trying to understand, but they're actually conditioned differently.

We know that companies are using things like red notifications because red makes the blood pump and makes you want to deal with it. So, there's all this kind of stuff. Like the brain. We know that there's like the emotional, psychological part of the brain. And then also like the biological responses that I was just describing, but the terms of emotional, psychological, We, I use social comparison theory as the basis of my research, because we've used this for, it's a general theory of belief that people compare themselves as a means of understanding their identity.

Not new way before social media, this could be very serious, or it could be as simple as I know that I'm tall because I look around and everybody else is shorter than me. And in that comparison, I understand my identity as being tall. So sometimes it's like that, but I also look into, to upward, neutral and downward comparison.

So upward being like, imagine yourself, make the comparison and deem them further up than you or better than you neutral being that they're on the same ground. And then downward being that. Imagine you looked down on them in whatever judgment. And then when you move on to something like Instagram, you have highlight reels of people, putting out their best and brightest curated, edited moments.

And now you're making maybe more frequent comparisons and more frequent, upward comparison. Which is not necessarily great if you don't see that comparison as motivating or inspiring.

Nancy: Ah, that's a great add in.

Bailey: Yeah, because what is, we're getting technical now, but hopefully your audience will appreciate this, but with the upward comparison and the downward comparison, neither are inherently good or bad even though what you hear.

So, an upward comparison. I for example, do a lot of upward comparing because I want to follow people that motivate me. So, I think you're better off financially, or I think you're more fit or whatever, because, or I think you travel more, but I see that, and I take that as motivation for the most part. And same thing with downward social comparison.

Some people. Would feel guilty that they made the downward comparison and some people, it would make them feel better about themselves because they've made themselves better off. So really, it's again, back to who you are right in with yourself.

Nancy: So, there may be. Like I know, and that goes back to how I'm feeling.

There are times when I get online and I go to Instagram and the people that I follow that are an upward comparison, make me feel challenged. And if I'm feeling crappy, I go and look at them and they make me feel bad about myself. Cause I'm not hitting where they are. Yeah. That's less about. So, are you saying that's less about the social media and more just about me being aware of where I am to say now's not the time to be on social media?

If that's making me feel bad.

Bailey: Yes. I would say that in response, if you catch yourself doing something like that, an immediate thing that you can do is say. Okay. One, who am I following? Like, why am I feeling this way? Do I even like this poster? Do I even like this content and kind of checking in with yourself that way?

And that was a real observation, no thing that I did in with my own participants. And I would make that. Go through maybe five posts on their feet or keep going through their feed. And I would say, hey wait, stop. Why did you like that? Or why are you following this person? Or did you even read the caption or how come you like every single photo?

Do you actually like that photo? Like all these kinds of questions that make them make it mindful. And so sometimes you would hear a lot of, no, I actually don't know them. I just followed them because they followed me or I don't, I know. Every time I do see their posts. It does make me feel worse off like these kinds of conversations that would maybe answer the question for you about, is this a youth thing, or can you help do, fix your feeds so that they're better for you?

And the other thing could be. Do I feel this way? No. Most of the time I like your content. So, this might be a me thing right now and I need to go figure out like, so in, in that situation that you described exactly. I know for myself, when I feel that way, like if I'm seeing someone succeed and I'm thinking even a little bit of like, why aren't I there, I know that's like a trigger for me.

I need to get to work then because I need to take action. I need to feel like I'm in control of this, of the outcome again. So, I need to, sometimes I've even taken breaks off social media, even unintentionally. Been like, oh, wow. I haven't posted in a month because I'm going to do the thing. I wouldn't have anything to talk about.

That makes me feel better when I get them,

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. What do you do? How do you like, just, I know for me, from the time I get up in the morning and it's the first thing I pick up. It's the last thing I put down my phone is, I haven't taken your assessment, but I really feel like I am the, in the addicted category and my husband would probably agree.

So not to, for you to solve my addiction in the next five minutes, but how, what steps would you give someone that's I know I have a problem. It may not be an addiction, but I know I have a problem.

Bailey: What can I do? Yeah. So, this the website, I'm like, I'm doing it right now, so it's fresh in my memory, but the website will be broken up into those five steps towards safe social.

And if you've identified, you have an issue, then it's time to go into. Step two and three. So, step two, being moderate consumption, step three, being, build the offline soft skills and these need to happen simultaneously. So, step two, I would say, and what I'm going to include in that organization would be things like answer these like a self-reflection assessment about answering those questions.

And my, do I feel like I'm on social media? All my friends are on it or because I actually take value from it. But then it's going to just go to the next step, which is ways you can moderate consumption, try these apps, try removing notifications, try removing notifications for certain things.

So that you can have to actively seek it. You actually have to make it active that you go into the app instead of passively receiving all the notifications, try moving the app to a different page. If you feel that it's mindless and that you're just logging in without knowing you can try if it's a time issue that you feel that you're having try tracking your time, try leaving it across the thing like the Room, but we're getting into light ones now, but just the same with alcohol.

You might need to take a break, like you might need to experience some withdrawals for a bit and detox a little bit so that you can remind yourself what it's like to operate without and remind the brain. So, then the next phase of that is that if you really want to build long-term solutions for dealing in this world, you need to work on things like resilience and self-awareness and building your community.

And so that's why I'm also going to include some of skills, camps, activities in there, real activities that you can do solo for building your like answering things about coping strategies, things that you can come back to later when you are in a time of need. And then finally, I think one thing I might also include.

An early iteration of this organization is, I don't know if it's going to be used or not. There's, I'm going to include resources of course, to things like kids, help phone and mental health services, depending on really, if you're, even if you're just frustrated all the way to, if you're feeling suicidal because of what you're experiencing online.

But I also was thinking, should I even just include, I know that community is important to this. Just like every other whisky behavior. Is there a way that I could have an hour long, weekly zoom? Group sessions, like a weekly group session and we always have it. You can come, you can join.

It's going to be there. Maybe nobody comes, but that you can talk to other people about what you're experiencing. So, I know. Yeah. So that's where I'm at right now.

Nancy: I love that idea. I mean, I think that is because it is such a unique. I know that I am, and I'm just laying myself bare here on the podcast, but I know like comparatively to, when I talk about how much I use my phone in comparison to.

The people around me, they're like, whoa, like I have a problem. So, it would be helpful to be able to go talk about it with other people that get that,

Bailey: I'd say that the most important thing also though, I'm like going to, it might seem I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not. And I'll explain why, but I still say the most important thing for you is that if other people think you use your phone a lot because like I just suggested time on social media in the literature was not actually a good indicator of anything.

It was not. So you could, if you're having a really bad time for 15 minutes, that could do more harm to you than if you're having a good time for six and using it for work, it's just quality of the time. So I would say one. Good. Yeah. So start there, but also for you yourself. I'm not imposing this on you, but someone who I would say, maybe ask these questions.

If you're in a similar situation would be you, if you leave, you use it before bed and you use it when you wake up, as I do, like I do have I sometimes like to go on Reddit before bed or watch some YouTube and I like it like. I still like it, and I still don't feel bad about it. And I wake up in the morning and I usually read my email digest of the news and check Instagram and Facebook messages.

And I don't have a problem with it either. Like it's not negatively harming my effect or my mood and it's not harming my productivity. I, and it's not harming my relationships. So, I think that, and most importantly, I don't feel guilty about. Whereas, if you are feeling like, oh, I'm using so much of this, I do want to reduce it, then yes.

Take it. But if you're not, you don't need to take someone else's prescription of they think is okay. That's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully that might make people, some people feel better. Like you don't have to create a problem if there isn't one, if you have two glasses of wine a night, some will, some people would be really uncomfortable with a glass of red wine at night and they'd be like, you drink every day.

Yes, I yeah. Okay. On average would have a glass today. Sometimes it's none, but sometimes it's two. Some people would be deeply like that. Wouldn't even like they would feel guilty and that's what matters. To the mental health side.

Nancy: Right? Totally. No, I hear what you're saying. Because I think it is, because I use it when I get up in the morning.

And I it's part of my ritual, like to check Facebook and check Instagram and I enjoy, I do enjoy it. Like I, cause I've and I've read, but don't put your phone, don't open your phone for two hours and just let your brain. But my anxiety actually decreases. When I check social media right away because I just enjoy it and I feel connected and it's just a fun thing to do for my kitchen.

And then before I go to bed every night, I actually read the New York times and lay in bed and read it on my phone. And it is, people will be like, oh my gosh, you're reading the news. And it's so stressful. But for some reason in my bed, it feels safe. It's not, it doesn't bother, like to your point does not negatively affect me now

Bailey: I'm very specific though about, what I do like to read in the morning and at night, because it probably would annoy me if I started with Twitter in the morning.,

Nancy: yes. Yeah, because I like, I have dogs that I follow and, like just things that make me happy in the morning. But where I noticed it and not to make this all about me, but I'm going to make it all about me.

Where I notice it, a lot is like when I'm working. And I'll be like, oh, let me just check Facebook. And then I like am down in the yeah. I'm down the rabbit hole.

Bailey: Yeah. That came up a lot in my work as well. Frustration with the mindlessness feeling like you don't have. Yes.

Nancy: So, talk to me about that.

Bailey: So that did come up a lot. The mindlessness of it almost again, feeling like you are doing something without control over your own mind in a way. And or being loose. And at that point, it is actually affecting your work. Like it's affecting yourself. You need to have, if you feel like, for example, that you don't have a stopper, you might need to stop it in the middle of the day.

For example, some people will say, oh, I'm just going to go on for 15 minutes and then get back to work. If you don't have that stopper yet, like if you don't have the discipline yet then you might not, that might not be okay for you in the middle of the day. Okay. Or you might need to set there's apps that for example enforce time limits.

So, you can add this yourself. You can even ask an accountability buddy, to do it for you. That, for example, like a parent has to be like, you can't turn it back on yourself. Someone else has got to turn it back on. I've hit my hours, and this is where you do need external help. Like someone else taking the alcohol out of the room for you.

Nancy: I just add on time, like it says you have exceeded your time, and I'm like, okay, I just need to add more time.

Bailey: But yeah. And the other thing is so for example, my partner, he uses this method called the dash method. I don't, I lie. It's called the Pomodoro technique. Oh yes. Yeah. I've talked about that. Yeah.

So, he loves that. Yeah. So, the 25 on 25, off 25 on five off for like this whole system. But at least then when he's focused, he knows he's going to have the time. I will be able to, I have distraction time, like booked in a way, right? Yeah. So, then you just get into the system of, oh, I know.

I'll get to that later, but I know that I'm getting back to this work now. And there's no one solution for anybody, unfortunately, which is why we do have to try different things and why I want to provide more of that. More than one strategy for people.

Nancy: Yeah. I love what you're saying.

Because like I've even what I, that the twenty-five what happens to me. I changed course. What happens to me is all Facebook then leads to Instagram, which leads to Twitter, which leads to, checking mighty networks, which is a thing that I belong to, which leads to checking my email. And then that takes me, 20 minutes.

Oh, maybe I missed something on Facebook. So, then we just start the pattern over again. And so, I appreciate, but what I hear the most from your message is you can implement all the strategies you want, which may be helpful. But the bigger picture here is you have to be bringing mindfulness.

Do this activity. Yes, because it is a risky behavior.

Bailey: Yes. If I was blindly drinking every night, you would say, I have an issue. If I am getting off this just seems, it seems lower risk. It seems oh, who cares? But that's just because drinking and drugs, these things have been around so long.

There are biblical rules against them. So, we know. The risks here. We know them biologically socially, behaviorally physiologically Reno. So, we don't we know there's risks here. We are figuring them out. But we actually are in the middle of it. This very well could have longer term and more widespread effects on the collective wellbeing of us.

And we are living it right now. This more clearly, even though a hundred years. So, you're right. That this bigger picture is that we are being mindful about it, that this content we're taking in is definitely informing who we are. It's informing. What we know about the world, what we believe about others, it's informing what we believe about ourselves, what we see as our identity or regular.

If we feel guilty, like this is very much affecting our life, which means it needs to be mindful because who knows, if you're getting off Instagram and you don't know what you've seen for the last time, The images are still implanted on your brain. And this has been shown by subconscious visually visualization.

But even if you're shown a bunch of images in the background that people can still remember them, stuff like that, we know that it's going to your brain, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the tendency is to, you recognize just in anytime we're making an, a general change, you recognize something as a problem.

And so, you demonize it. And then you slowly bring it back to how can I live with it? This is not if you have an addiction, obviously. I'm not talking about moderation and alcohol, if you're an addict, but I am talking about how do I use it in moderation and the only way to do that. Yeah.

If I am, which I don't do. So that's why you've really helped me. If I can be more intentional about how I'm using it and not because my tendency is to demonize it all the time. And yeah.

Bailey: For yourself.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. So, you've helped me on two levels, one, and hopefully you've helped. Some of the people listening is one to recognize it.

Isn't all terrible and it does bring some good things to my life and to, I need to be intentional in how I'm using it and aware of how I'm feeling. Yeah, it was and aware of who I'm following and why I'm following them and not just be like, oh, they're following me. Like I do a ton of that. I don't want to upset them.

So let me make sure I liked them.

Bailey: Which is, it does not sound like, oh, I just had the beer because I didn't want my friends to think I'm right. Exactly. That's totally it.

Nancy: And even when I've tried to get off social media, what has brought me back, which was enjoyable, but what brought me back was that I missed like my cousins, baby announcement, and you miss stuff, you miss the good stuff.

Yeah. But even being a tension about who I'm letting in. To my brain through social media.

Bailey: It's you can control this, so don't let it control you. Yeah.

Nancy: I love what you're doing. I have not, I've done a lot of research of my own obviously, because I'm really concerned about it. I've never heard it presented like this. This is so great.

Bailey: Not great that it's not easier to find. I'm trying to fix that over COVID but I'm also. This is why it's so important to me because when I just know that I would be laughed out of a high school class. If I told them they had to get off, wait, it has to be about social. It has to be about safe, social cause abstinence education doesn't work really anywhere,

Nancy:

I'm blown away. So, thank you. I, you made me feel better about my own situation and gave me some tools for moving forward, which is a double you can't ask for more than that from an interview, man.

So where can people find out more about this. I know you're in the process,

Bailey: but yeah, right now you can follow me at Bailey Parnell on everything.

And especially, probably I'm most active on Instagram. And I will definitely put out when safe social has fully moved out and is out there in the world. And of course, Bailey parnell.com is my website where you can see also a bunch of other videos about this topic and stuff like that. Oh, and of course, hashtag safe sex.

Nancy: Okay, cool. Thanks. I'm glad you shared that.

I want to highlight the two takeaways that resonated the most with me. Number one, recognizing that social media isn't all bad. And my tendency to shame myself about using it actually makes it worse. And number two, social media is an activity like alcohol, which means we need to use it in moderation.

We need to bring more intention to our social media usage and not just allow it to mindlessly take up space in our lives. These interviews on avoidance are showing me that there's so much more to avoiding that appears on the surface societal messages, cultural norms, and our own shaming can cause these techniques to spiral out of control.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 128: Eating Your Anxiety

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Erica Drewry a Registered Dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor avoidance, and how it plays out with food.

Chocolate, ice cream, chips, cheese balls, Ho-Hos, and Junior Mints. My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a global pandemic–at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats. 

When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses, my first thought was: Oh no! Do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry, wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown.

I immediately opened an Instacart account and started making my list. 

I was going to be ready for what was coming.

All this month I am talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. 

Today I am talking with Erica Drewry about avoidance and how it plays out with food. 

Erica is a registered dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of Aligned Nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in person and virtually.  

This topic is very personal to me and I am so excited for you to hear our conversation!  It is an open and honest (at times very vulnerable!) conversation about food, anxiety, and avoidance. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story of how I use food to avoid. 

We recorded it just 2 weeks ago so it’s a message of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic that couldn’t have come at a better time. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What might be behind our tendency to eat when we are bored, and why I filled my Instacart with junk food

• How binging and restricting go hand and hand, even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting

• What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society

• What role society plays in our relationship with food

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Aligned Nutrition

• @alignednutrition (on Facebook, Youtube, & Instagram)

+ Read the Transcript

Erica: So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?

Nancy: When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses.

My first thought was, oh my God, do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry. Wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown, I immediately signed on to Instacart and started making my list. Chocolates, ice cream chips, cheese ball Ho-Hos. And of course, junior mints.

My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a pandemic, at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats, I was going to be ready for what was coming.

You are listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and release. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month. I’m talking with the experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today, we are talking about avoidance and how it plays out with food. This topic is very personal to me, which you will definitely hear in the interview.

Today’s guest Erica Drewry was sharing that her favorite interviews around food. I, when the host asked her own personal questions. So, I took that as an opportunity. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story and how I use food to avoid. Erica is a registered dietician and a certified, intuitive eating counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of align nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in-person and virtually. I am so excited for you to hear our conversation.

It is an open and honest and at times, very vulnerable conversation about food anxiety and avoiding it. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So, it’s messages of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn’t have come at a better time. Erica and I talk about what might be behind our tendency to eat when we’re bored and why I filled my Instacart with junk food.

The answer might really surprise you how bingeing and restricting go hand in hand. Even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting. Because I didn’t and I was really worried. What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society and society’s role in our relationship with food.

I am so excited to have Erica drew here to talk to us about nutrition and eating and all that stuff that comes as a big one for avoiding. So welcome, Erica.

Erica: Thank you for having me.

Nancy: I have to share that Erica is a friend of mine, so that’s an even more fun of an interview to do because we talk frequently.

And so, I’m really excited to have her here and be able to pick her brain about this particular subject. Okay, so I’m just going to dive right. In recently, you wrote a post about eating when you’re bored and here we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic and boredom for some of us is, I guess, boredom and anxiety.

Because not all of us are bored. Those who are staying at home with their kids and dealing with all that. But I really want to, I really want to hear your take on that. And tell us more about that blog post or, your, I gave you multiple questions there with the boredom and the COVID-19, but let’s just dump into boredom and where you can dive into the COVID-19.

That’d be cool.

Erica: Perfect. Yeah, I think what has happened is that with COVID-19, it’s exacerbated underlying things that we might be feeling in our day to day. And so, I am somebody that doesn’t believe outright in boredom eating, and the reason for that. And I think as a therapist, you will appreciate this.

I think there are better questions. And I think the one I, when I’ve been working with clients over the years, I’ve realized that boredom eating is a blanket state. There’s usually something else going on. And so, it’s not that people don’t feel bored, or they know something’s off, but I think what is actually happening is that they’re disconnected in some way.

So always say, you’re not bored, you’re disconnected. And so, let’s find you some better ways to address that because, typically the antidote to boredom. Finding something to do, right? Whether that’s a hobby or a passion or quality time with someone you care about, but we may be missing the point with that, and so I always say, some of the better questions are going to be thinking about whether yeah. Life balance in your life, the big parts of your life, job relationships, money are those in balance because that could be something that’s leading you to be disconnected from yourself or a bigger worry where you might be turning to food.

Another thing we could be thinking about is, do you need more rest, or do you need more play, or do you need something to look forward to doing you need a change of scenery? So, it was like again, with boredom eating, we may not be addressing some of those things. You may just be distracting yourself when you actually need to take a nap.

Okay. And then another thing to think about with boredom eating is when. You might be avoiding something. I figured we could dive into that a little bit

Nancy: Yes. That I was, but yeah, I think that’s a big one right there.

Erica: It is. And from talking to my community and then in my work with clients, I think that’s one of the biggest ones is that you are avoiding something.

So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?

Nancy: How do you I know even with this, COVID-19 like we had gone to the grocery store, we had gotten the necessities and then once, our governor put down the order that we were going to be here for two weeks, I like, it was my first priority I had. Fill up my Instacart. I had to get ice cream and chocolate. And like even a couple of days later, I said to my husband, I don’t know that I even got like enough real food because I’ve bought so many snacks and was just like totally sugar buying. I recognize that was happening, like I knew when I was shopping on Instacart that I was doing it, what would you recommend to pull back?

Erica: Yeah. It sounds like that kind of scarcity and anxiety was triggered. So, we think, okay, we’ve got to stock up. And then we also have an abundance of food around us that we may not usually have, I’ve talked with several people who were like, oh, I don’t keep that much stuff in my house because then I’ll eat it all.

And so now you’re in this situation where, given the orders that we were given, we want to be careful and go ahead and have food that’s available for us when we need it. And. That can be really uncomfortable. How do you deal with having more food on hand than usual or foods that you might not have as much of, and you’re right?

And that you can’t have as many foods that are going to expire within days. You might’ve run out of salad last week, but you still have chocolate because it’s more shelf stable. And I think we get a lot of those messages of, always shop on the outside of the grocery store, all the fresh things.

Here we are having this challenge now; we really needed to learn how to like stock a pantry and have snacks and have things in our freezer and maybe eat things that are more convenience foods or more processed, and that are less perishable challenges. Some of those expectations.

Nancy: that’s what it is.

So, for me has always been so hard with food and it is a way I avoid, it totally, I can think of nothing that brings me more joy than, having a bag of Reese cups and being able to sit on the couch and just have permission to eat as much as I want. And sometimes that’s okay.

And it’s unhooking all the old food rules I have. And I have a ton of them from, being in college and being super militant and doing weight Watchers and losing 30 pounds and then regaining it. And, like all that stuff piles up over time. How do you separate out the food crap from the what’s really going on mentally and emotionally?

Oh, I know I’m totally going off script here and I apologize.

Erica: Okay. I think it links up with where we wanted to talk about that kind of shoulds. And so, it’s a great question because it is a lot of work to sort through both, and how do you know whether it’s all of your food rules rearing up and all of the leftover diet crap that you’re dealing with.

And then when is it that you have a legitimate need for something? And that’s why I think when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, I see it as nutrition as a form of self-care because you’re looking at, oh gosh, you know what a day it’s been, I’m really uncertain about tomorrow.

I’m feeling anxious. You’re not committing any crimes by eating some Reese. But you’re doing yourself a disservice. If you’re not eating Reese cups and asking yourself, what do I need right now? Is it, some fresh air? Is it, completing a task that you’ve been avoiding or dealing with some feelings that you haven’t been wanting to feel?

It’s I think we can do both. And that’s where we don’t want to overly pathologize and should all over ourselves for emotional eating. Because we’re emotional beings, we’re going to be eating and feeling emotions at the same time. And you can soothe with food. It’s just relatively ineffective.

It’s really the only way that you can deal with it.

Nancy: That’s helpful because it is just, I was even thinking, as you were talking, I was thinking like I have all the rules. And I never stepped back to say, to ask myself, how does you know, it’s a relatively recent thing for me. I would say that I am recognizing like, when you’re eating the Reese cups girl, your stomach’s upset.

You don’t feel good, but not, but even some of that is still blaming it on the food. I don’t stop to pull back and say, what’s really going on. What are you trying to avoid? What are you missing? What’s the tough thing you’re trying to get away from, which I think is what you’re saying?

Erica: absolutely.

And you’re seeing it as an indicator, I’m reaching for the bag of Reese cups and, am I hungry? Yeah. This is snack time or no, I don’t think so. And then you proceed, you, you can choose to proceed or not, and neither way is right or wrong. And so, then if you proceed, it might be reflecting on it afterwards.

Gosh, I’m not feeling so well. I wonder what was going on before. I did that. And I wonder what I need to do now. And it’s like honoring both that there’s this dynamic interplay between the food and the emotions. And so how do you handle like feeding yourself in a way that feels good. And then how do you handle taking good care of your emotional health.

And making sure they don’t get too interconnected

Nancy: Because all of the Weightwatchers and all of the diets, or even, healthy eating plans, whatever you want to call them, they’re still pulling you outside of someone else’s telling me what to do. Yes. I’m not listening to myself. I’m following someone else’s rules, which is why for people with high-functioning anxiety that is so attractive because we want someone else to tell me what to do.

If someone else tells me what to do, I don’t have to think about it, and I can just follow the rules if I know I’m doing it right. And it’s really clear. And so for me, that has always been so hard since I recognize that if I follow it, one of those plans that happens, but I haven’t been able to figure out what to do instead.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re highlighting a really important concept of that kind of external-internal influence. And so, when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, it is starting to see the difference of external-internal. And that’s where kind of recognizing some of these old food rules oh my gosh, I’m feeling guilty about eating this snack.

And I just realized it’s because it’s 8:15, and I, once upon a time, I heard that it was bad to eat after 8:00 PM. External feeling that guilt. And then at that point, you can go, oh my gosh, that was just a silly food rule I had from way back when I think talked about it in the nineties. And it’s not applicable to me at this moment in time.

And then you move on, but it could also, yeah. Yeah. I think that when it comes to sorting through some of that. It can, when I’m working with people through this process, you feel that. Kind of devil and angel on your shoulder where you’re going back and forth. So, it’s almost like because you were used to giving so much of your power away.

Give me the program, give me the I’ll follow it. I’ll do whatever. Then you’ve lost out on your own autonomy. So, it’s almost like you’re suddenly trying to figure it out for yourself, and you feel like you have a blindfold on, and earmuffs and you are just trying to sort it out, and you have almost no structure.

And that can feel difficult. And that’s why, I guess when we were talking about bored a minute earlier, one of the questions I always recommend people also ask themselves, was I actually hungry? And so, if you’re regularly eating very chaotically, then that can feel difficult to know what is going on.

Although a specific structure, but if you’re, quote-unquote, emotionally eating at 8:15 PM and you had a yogurt for lunch and no breakfast, then let’s not forget that you’re hungry and that you’re again, not committing any crime. Or emotionally eating, you just happen to be hungry and have a certain feeling about it.

Nancy: So, go back to the beginning. And like that, when we think of emotional eating, a lot of times, like for me, I think of bingeing, like I like, it’s an uncontrollable, I’m going to go from ice cream to Reese cups. I’m not necessarily like for me; it isn’t necessarily like I’m going to drive through the drive-through and get.

10 tacos and then go to KFC and get a bucket of chicken. It’s just like I’m overeating.

Erica: It’s all in this range. I see on the spectrum.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense, but then emotionally, it takes a lot of different, it’s not. It’s also restricting which you talk about, which I would never like that didn’t, which I can look back now in my twenties when I was restricting and my thirties and be like, oh yeah, that was equally heady.

It was equally as bingeing. So, talk to me about that a little bit.

Erica: Yeah. It’s you’re hitting on something important, right? In terms of where people will cycle through different behaviors with food. So, it’s pretty common that we start looking for help with our eating problems. Once we do start bingeing and most people are pretty satisfied with restricting unless it becomes less, it becomes a significant problem where they’re found out by their parents or they’re thinking about food so much that they can’t pay attention in their regular lives, or maybe they.

Get an overuse injury due to malnutrition, or they think too much of their life has taken up thinking about food. But most of the time, yeah, people have a combination of all the above and in the way I do divide, it is thinking about, are you someone that tends to turn towards food when you’re anxious or away from food when you’re anxious?

Because what’s happening biologically is that when we’re anxious, blood is being shunted away from our intestines and we’re in that kind of fight or flight. So, some people, their appetite immediately goes away. And there they are like, I’m not hungry for breakfast. I know I should eat it, but I just can’t.

And then other people are nervously picking or grazing or snacking or eating beyond fullness, but it’s all in a similar. Emotional response. It’s just, it plays out differently.

Nancy: Okay. That’s fascinating. I just think it’s when I thought of that, I was like, oh yeah, and both are, you’re still outside of your yourself.

Erica: It’s not normal. That’s what I say to my clients who tend to go towards restriction and they’re trying to heal their food relationship. You’re like I didn’t feel hungry. That’s abnormal that you typically breakfast and then one day you’re not hungry.

It’s important to check in with yourself. Hey, what’s going on? Why am I not hungry for breakfast? That’s odd. There’s something off here. And I think that’s where the cultural stuff comes in where it’s just going to say that. Yeah. So, praise that restriction that restraint. And so, people have to really talk themselves into going against that because it feels wrong to eat.

When you’re not feeling those hunger cues, but like we were saying, it’s that same level of disconnection, your head and your body are not connected in that moment. That’s why sometimes you go into that trance, and then you wake up and you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m so full. I’m so uncomfortable.

Why did I eat all of those things? But in the moment, you were disconnected until you. Woke up and came present again.

Nancy: Yeah, that’s so true. And I was because I was going to say there’s so much positive for restricting. All the diets are teaching us to restrict, and I have power if I restrict and that becomes a, a power trip like.

If I can do it, then I’m a better person than the person that has no control.

Erica: Absolutely. And everyone who is the type of person that feels out of control, wants to be the person that restricts, but the people who restrict want you to know that it’s just as bad. It’s just as miserable.

Nancy: Oh, that’s good to know.

Yeah, because even yesterday I noticed, I was laughing. I was laughing about it because my reaction to anxiety is usually to graze and yesterday, or the day before they all run together at this point. Yeah. What day is it?

Erica: It’s a day.

Nancy: I was so anxious. I wasn’t hungry, and I, and it was, and because that’s unusual for me, I said to me, I really stopped.

It was like, girl, you got to settle. You are so hopped up that you, your stomach is so there’s so much adrenaline going on that you’re not hungry. And so I was, and because I hadn’t eaten, it was making it worse. Absolutely. And so, it was just spinning. Yeah. And I think that’s just so that again, but because it’s unusual for me, that’s how I recognized it to change.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve actually noticed that quite a bit with my clients is that. If even if they tend to do one thing, a different type of stress, or maybe even a more significant stress will lead to, hey, I usually turn towards food and for whatever reason, I haven’t been hungry at all. Sometimes that indicates that we’re in really unchartered territory here.

There’s a more significant stressor, yeah. That’s just how your body’s responding.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because I can remember like when my dad was in the hospital, I didn’t eat, it’s I have to be really extreme, but if I’m just going through life, I tend to the food is what I crave. Yeah. And I know one of my biggest reasons for craving it.

, you talked about the devil and angel, and I talk about the monger and the BFF, and I know you’re familiar with those characters. But my BFF gets is all about the food, go ahead, go through Starbucks, get the crappy Chino, go ahead. Stop at Walgreens, get the bag of Reese cups.

I know on my way to work a lot of times I am like fighting myself. From stopping to pick up food and it’s just purely for the reward. Yeah. It’s that’s all it is. It’s just a little bit of a, I’m being a bad girl. Is that common? What’s that about? Do you have any thoughts on it?

Erica: Yeah, I a hundred percent. It is very common because it’s almost like you do swing between these extremes of okay. So even if you’re somebody who doesn’t tend to restrict regularly. If you’re typically turning towards food, you’re still having restrictive thoughts. The thoughts that say don’t do that.

You better not. Why would you do that again? And that, that monger voice is what is creating that feeling of restriction and that feeling of deprivation. So, we respond to the deprivation with. Let’s go ahead and take care of that. Let’s go ahead and treat yourself. You’ve earned this, and some of its perceived, some of it’s real.

So sometimes it may be, oh, I only ate a little bit for lunch today, so let’s swing through dairy queen on the way home. I really earned it. And then other times it’s just that perception. Where maybe you’re having a negative body image kind of spiral. And so then through that negative body image, you start, the mocker starts to kick into food of, hey, you should really start Weight Watchers again.

Why don’t you just download the app? Why don’t you think about that? And that deprivation that gets triggered it’s it creates you being obsessed with food. It creates more of an interest in food and a desire for the food that you just told yourself not to have. And it’s, ah, that the antidote is to find that kind of neutral observer to both, and really seeing them both play out with each other where maybe the BFS gets transformed into this BFF.

That’s a little more. Calm and compassionate and hey, what do you need right now? And then the longer, we’re disarming a little bit with, like I got you. You’re trying to protect me. You’re trying to help me establish some boundaries. I know I’ve always followed external plans and I’m just looking for that structure again.

And so, it’s like, how can we get them to be cohesive with each other? Without swinging back and forth between the two extremes and in the food healing relationship, we still swing back and forth a little bit. It’s just less intense and less severe of a swing. So, it doesn’t feel so horrible.

Nancy: And that’s, what’s amazing about that is. I don’t even recognize all my restrictive thoughts. Yeah. I’m I, so when you said that I was like, oh yeah. Even I can notice. Because I have, because I think about it all the time. Like I think about the Reese peanut butter eggs that I have down in the cabinet and how much I love them.

And then I’ll be like, no, you can’t have any like that. That’s going back and forth and like in, but one of my favorite things, like I really enjoy, I know I always enjoy having one with my coffee, which sounds. Crazy

Erica: It sounds Parisian, yeah.

Nancy: Little chocolate with my coffee

And so, it brings me a lot of joy and I love it. And so that, but so I can once I realized that I can just have one. And let it go. But it’s the later in the day when I’ve been telling myself all day long unconsciously that then I’m just like, screw it. I’m going in. And I just have, two or three.

Erica: So, might as well. It’s a once you’ve whether it’s broken a perceived rule it’s almost like you said, it builds up throughout the day, how you’ve eaten has become an unacceptable to that Monger part of you. And so, then the BFF steps in and goes we can’t please.

That guy. So, let’s just go ahead and we might as well, or I had one, so I might as well have more. And that’s where I think that deprivation that we felt for so many years of when you were on Weight Watchers and you weren’t eating the thing or all the times you told yourself not to, that is so built up and so strong.

Because even if you’ve been telling yourself I shouldn’t be having the Reese cup eggs all spring, it is almost even if you’ve been eating them, but you’re telling yourself not to have them. It’s like you haven’t had it. The satisfaction is completely wiped out. And that’s hard for us to understand.

So, you think, oh my gosh, I’ve been eating these Reese cups all week, but if you’ve been telling yourself, you shouldn’t be, or you were allowed, and then now you went overboard because I perceived how you did it was wrong. And it just eliminates that. And you’re almost back at ground zero. Experiencing severe deprivation around it.

Yeah.

Nancy: That’s very well said because I’ll sneak them, so my husband doesn’t see, because I’d put my monger onto him that he’s judging me. So, I’ll, he’ll be down in the basement, and I’ll shove a Reese cup in my mouth really quick, which I don’t taste it. It doesn’t have any of the joy, like the morning one does that is no one has ever explained it to me.

That way, the restriction piece that is that’s really the point.

Erica: It is, it’s so hard for those of us that have felt like we have no willpower and we’re eating all the time to even identify with restriction as being the problem. But it is the sole driver. In fact, when I’m working with people who tend towards turning away from food and people who tend towards turning towards food, the treatment is the same.

We are working at it in the same way. Wow.

Nancy: That is fascinating. Yeah. And again, it’s back to the original point. You spoke. Of building that connection with myself to know, what’s really going on here and paying attention to the thoughts all day that are so restrictive because part of them, the other thing and B is that, because I am so was so militant in my twenties and thirties that the idea of someone telling me what to do that when I follow even health at any size people, or I find it frustrating because they’re not telling me what to do.

Yes. They’re just being like, do whatever you want. And that just triggers me all over the place. Is that common?

Erica: Absolutely. Because it’s almost the way I think of it is it’s almost like being thrown into the ocean. With a little life raft and that’s it. And because you were so used to following a plan and then it’s this free fall, and you’re just bobbing in the water, and you feel so lost.

And so, for some people, they may find that learning to eat. And what does enough really look like? So, if you were doing weight Watchers for so many years, you might say, oh the vegetable soup, that is enough points and that’s what I’m going to use for my meal. And so that’s that, but now when you’re learning to eat enough, that may not be adequate.

It may be, having a bowl of vegetable soup with a grilled cheese on the side. And so, you’re learning to eat in a way that’s not restricted and that can feel really foreign. And so, I think. I think we all want to know how to eat, but the point of health at every size and intuitive eating is to figure out what that looks like for you.

And that feels so foreign, because we all experience everyone’s opinion about food or every diet plan or every, nutrition guru has their own method of what, the best way of eating. And even in nutrition research, we’re always, we’re very reductive. We’re looking for, what is, what’s the correlation here and what does that mean?

Does that mean that this is the healthiest food, and we should avoid this one? And so, it’s, you’re really just navigating these waters that have no. They have no chartered path. And so, you it’s normal to feel completely out of control. And it just depends, like some people do find that they need to work with a dietician to understand what their body needs and it, again, it’s a very addictive way.

Let’s make sure you’re having enough. What does a meal look like? Are you eating meals? Are you eating snacks? And just getting back to that, like basic, because it’s not your fault. It gets decided. After following diet plans for so many years, I had a client it’s then I had half of a grapefruit.

That’s not really a breakfast, but it was a breakfast on a diet plan that she followed for years. It’s almost, that’s why I think it’s a lot of that like forgetting what you’ve learned and trying to. Just really start to learn. What does it feel like to be connected to your body?

Nancy: Because that’s, what’s always challenging for me about, when I’ve started, I’ll start doing intuitive eating and the idea of eating, whatever you want. And you’re like, and, but I miss the next step, which is very important, pay attention to how it feels when you’re eating whatever you want, or, like when you actually eat the full bag of Reese cups, but I’m not.

So, I missed that part, but I also am missing the restriction part of the judgment that I’m putting on myself when I’m doing all that. Because it, it sounds fabulous, but it in, but in practice I’m having to unlearn all the patterns that I’ve had.

Erica: Yes. And that’s why the first principle of intuitive eating is reject diet culture.

And that is the hardest one because it, as though, as you’re going through the food healing and intuitive eating process, those diet thoughts keep coming up and up. I usually have my clients start with satisfaction, and that’s learning both from a physical standpoint and a mental standpoint. So, are you eating what you think you should, or are you eating what is going to satisfy you?

And then are you are eating enough to the point where you’re going to feel full. And so, like you’ve experienced, okay. Hey, I’m just eating what I want, and then I feel terrible afterwards because there’s also habituation that kind of comes in. So even if you’re, if you keep going at it with the receipt, Eventually and the idea isn’t to burn out and never want it again, it’s not a punitive thing, but if you ate Reese cups for dinner every night for a week, I would argue that at the end of that week, you legitimately would want something different.

And so, it’s that trust part. And I think it’s hard to. Because we’ve learned like an all or nothing mentality. You’re following this plan, or you’re not following the plan. And so that’s I’m guessing with the Reese cups and that when you felt like swinging back and forth, that is the one that you’ll have to.

Am I being all or nothing? Maybe it’s having a Turkey sandwich and a handful of Reese cups for dinner or for lunch or something like that. And you’re having both, and you’re giving yourself that permission without having to be I’m either not eating the RACI cups or I’m eating all of

them.

Nancy: Yeah. And this, and to be clear, like to the people that are listening, I’m not looking to lose weight like this. Isn’t about this conversation. Isn’t about give me the tips to lose weight. It’s the, how do I heal this relationship I have with food that has gotten way distorted and.

And out of control and I don’t even argue, like out of control would just say it’s gotten distorted. And so, I’m doing a lot more emotional eating that I want to be doing. Because it’s distorted. Yes. And I think that so often when we talk about food and weight loss go together as if they’re the same thing and they’re not.

Erica: Yeah. And that’s what, when it comes to healing your relationship with food and weight loss, we have to set the weight aside, and that’s hard to do, we always want to lose weight well, feel better. All of these things that we think will come will be more worthy. We’ll look better, we’ll be happier or whatever.

And the foundation of nutrition, I believe, is your relationship with food. I believe that is the absolute foundation that anything we’re doing with food has to be built on a solid. Relationship with it. And that way, it’s like how, it’s, how we’re hearing messages, as well. And so, it, that’s why it’s really the most important thing that we can do for ourselves.

If you’re eating all the sweet potatoes and all the kale and all of the tofu, but you’re anxious all the time and disconnected from yourself. Is the cortisol pumping through your body. That’s not good for us either. And so, I think that really bringing those two parts together and focusing on the relationship with food and then the rest will follow.

That’s why with intuitive eating, it’s saying, hey, let’s figure this part out. And then you can talk about nutrition later. And I think, also what you were saying. With, the disordered eating that you’ve experienced it’s as a result of dieting, intuitive eating has over 90 studies supporting it.

And one of the things that we know is that a side effect of dieting for years is binge eating. Overeating higher body mass index. So, it’s a result of, it’s not a personal failure.

Nancy: That is helpful

Because what my monger tells me is, oh, the reason I am so overweight is because I’ve just let myself go. Yes. You know that I can’t control it. Like I used to that if I would. And so, her, messages always go back to being restrictive. You need to go back to Weight watchers.

You need to go back to that, which creates the cycle, as you’re saying.

Erica: And then what other industry do we think that. If you order something in the mail and it comes broken, hey, you guys got to take this back. It’s defective. You don’t say, oh, I must have dropped it on my way coming in.

So, it’s my fault.

Nancy: So true.

Erica: You, we should get some refunds for, diets over the years (laughing)

Nancy: yes. Yeah. Yeah, because I can remember. My best friend was getting married, and I was doing Weight Watchers because I was going to be in the wedding. And I can picture this day as clear as --it was her wedding shower and one of the hosts had made awesome pecan pie.

And everyone was raving about it, but I did not eat it because I was doing Weight Watchers. And at the time, I was so proud of myself, and everyone was commenting on my control and yeah. And how I could do it, that, and I was like, yeah, so great doing this. And the number of times I thought to myself, if I could go back and eat that freaking piece of pie, I would, that just felt so miserable at the time everyone’s eating, I’m not eating, everyone’s giving me these accolades and I’m like, this is stupid.

You’re like a big part of me knew it was stupid, but I kept sticking with it, and missing stuff.

Erica: And that’s where I think the distorted, the restriction, the restraint, the deprivation, that’s where this is all it is eating and dieting and being restrictive and all of these messages that we receive and internalize, they take us away from what really matters.

They take us away from being present. And so, I think, yeah, at the time you were so in it, you didn’t realize that. And then now on the other side, you’re thinking, gosh, I really missed out. And here I am, however, many years later, I’m not going to get some award for having been the most restrained that day

Nancy: It is interesting how you can go back and feel that sense of pride, and that, and, and then you can get into my dad was that way. Like you can get back into all the history of where those messages came from. I always joke that I still eat because I’m still stuck in these patterns as if I was in the nineties.

Yeah. So, I still eat, it’s I went, I was hungry before we got on the call and I was, and I’m trying to eat more protein because I eat mostly carbs because protein was bad. And like I got some ham where you can’t have ham, it has fat in it. That’s one of my weird rules.

Erica: It was low fat for so long.

And now it’s more low carb. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I still eat that way because I’m still following the crazy rules. Yes. Yeah. It’s it perpetuates itself. And so, what you’re saying is basically the same thing I’m saying to my clients is building self-loyalty. Yeah. Yes.

Erica: And that’s what you’re restoring autonomy.

You’re restoring trust with yourself because you, when you’re following the rules of a diet, and then you conclude that you. Failed at it. All of a sudden you don’t trust yourself. I can’t be trusted with food. Oh, I ate that thing, and it wasn’t on my plan. And so now I, again, I can’t be trusted. And so that is really damaging.

Yeah. You’re betraying yourself. And like you said, it’s building that self-loyalty and that autonomy with food. And I think that’s the biggest thing is with; it does come that permission to eat and that genuine permission. And I think that’s where, when we were talking before about your mocker part and that BFF part, and the way you conceptualize that with your clients is, bringing them together in a way that they’ll work with each other instead of.

Swinging back and forth. How does the self-loyalty come in with the BFF and the monger and how could we pull that together with food?

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So would you say that part of unearthing this like moving forward for me personally, since I’ve become the test subject here is bringing those rules to light.

Yeah. Okay.

Erica: Yes, that’s one of the first things that I do with my clients is first we look at, okay, are you eating enough? What is the, do you have a rhythm to eating and do you, but through that process, we’re unearthing the rules. Hey, why don’t you. Bread with lunch. Oh, because I can’t have carbs after 10:00 AM.

Oh, you can’t, let’s talk about that. And so once, once we start going through that, and it’s amazing how actually I’m going to back up, I think the quickest way you can get to your rules is to make a list of what foods are good foods. And what foods are bad foods. Oh. And that’s a shortcut to unearth so many food rules.

And then the more subtle ones start to reveal themselves. Oh, you don’t eat chicken tenders for lunch. What, why other it’s a dinner food really? Okay. You said that (laughing)

Nancy: (Laughing) and that’s how insidious they are. When you say them, they sound wackadoodle, but in your brain, They’re perfectly logical.

Erica: Yes. Once upon a time, a personal trainer, had you weigh your chicken breasts at dinner. And so, it is it’s. So, it’s so illuminating. Once you start to the awareness, you can’t change anything that you’re not aware of when you just feel so stuck.

And so, I love having people write those out, and I have them, beyond good food, bad food beyond, timing with eating. What have you heard about, these types of foods? What have you heard about if you’re moving or you’re not moving and we really get into it and then after they unearth a lot of their food rules, I say things like, is that still relevant?

Do you know that to be true? And so, it’s called wait a minute, fat isn’t as bad as we thought it was in the nineties, it turns out it’s really satisfying. And so, you’re starting to. Once you become aware of them, you start to challenge them and then do things differently. And that I think is one of the things that can unite the BFF and the monger with the self-loyalty is a self-loyalty saying I got this, I’m going to figure it out.

And I trust my body, and I trust myself to sort through it. Sort through these things

Nancy: Yeah. That makes it, so that’s helpful. Just that’s been really helpful. Okay. Anything you would add since we’re going to start wrapping up here, anything you want to make sure people hear when it comes to avoidance and emotional eating,

Erica: working with clients and teaching them, how do you eat enough?

What does that look like for you? And then unearth the food rules. And then we find the morality that exists in that, the shame. And then from there. It’s really them continually checking in with themselves and just getting reset. So, it was like a lot of journaling what’s going on with me and seeing the eating behaviors as an indicator, that something that they’re disconnected in some things off.

So, it’s a really dynamic process that happens over time. And so, I’m almost thinking about somebody knowing that these things don’t go away at night or overnight, and that we can’t like will our way out of them. But the more that you continue to offer yourself permission, The more that you fuel your body, no matter how you feel about it the more that you start to remove morality and the rules that you have around food,

Nancy: love that phrase morality, because it is linked.

It is linked to that. It’s that strong, it’s that strong morality, the shame, the good person, bad person, but the term morality just really shows. It’s not just, I’m a good person. I’m a bad person, but I am like, it defines who I am right. In big ways that I don’t even. I’m not even aware of.

Erica: And that’s what I think when we were talking earlier about the shoulds, I think that’s what it actually is when you’re saying I should do this, or I shouldn’t do this, you’re saying I’m a good person. If I do this, and I’m a bad person, if I don’t do this. And that’s where often, when we say, hey, all foods are good, right?

You’re good. Your body’s good. That’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about removing that morality because yeah. When you eventually leave this earth people, aren’t going to say, oh, good thing that she had a solid breakfast every morning, remember you for who you are and what you bring to your relationships into your life.

And so, I think it is. It is moving beyond, eating in a certain way to be a certain type of person. And I think that gets into the weight piece. That’s where I think the health at every size comes in is I feel shame because my body doesn’t look a certain way, and people in larger bodies and people not in larger bodies, all feel the shame.

People in larger bodies just have the attic. Microaggressions and discrimination put upon them. So, I think that sometimes can be what’s underneath that too, is if you’re feeling a certain way about food, you’re maybe also feeling a certain way about your body. And that’s another way that they get linked up,

Nancy: Because I even think about that quote, oh, it’s I can’t, I’m not going to come up with this, but then it’s a.

You are not as fat as you think you are. Like she’s talking to this college seniors at commencement, and she’s you’re not as fat as you think you are. And I look back on pictures of myself, and I’m like, wow. I felt as I was beating myself up, just as much as I am now, then, and I’m a much, have much more weight now than I did then, but my mindset was exactly the same.

Yeah. The personal hell I was living in was exactly the same. It is.

Erica: At such a young age. Our fear of becoming fat is internalized, and that’s also called fatphobia. And so, then we carry that throughout our lives. And again, that’s us, really judging ourselves as a person and our value and our worth.

And that’s not just coming from us. Some of that trickles down from society and healthcare and things like that. And that is I think, a deeper part of this work and healing your relationship with food usually. Like you experienced the body image dissatisfaction. That starts first. That is the precept to your relationship with food going awry.

And then the body image, whether that’s acceptance or. Some people are more of a self-love, some people are more neutral. Some people just say, hey, I live in a body, and I take care of it. And I’m glad that I have it. Everyone has different levels of how they approach that. But that’s the last part of this work.

And that’s why we say, hey, we’ve got to set the weight aside. And so, you might be saying to yourself, I may not like how my body looks, or I may be judged by society by the size of my body, but I still deserve. To eat food and I have permission to do so again,

Nancy: back to the self-loyalty piece. Yes.

That’s really what this is all about. That’s easy to say, like that’s the overarching theme and then all these exercises you’ve given us, recognizing the rules, recognizing how, morality plays apart recognizing being a good person or a bad person, and when your monger’s talking versus your BFF, but all of that comes down to how do I feel as a person?

And am I looking outside of myself for the answer versus trusting what my body is telling me? Exactly. Yeah, exactly way easier said than done, but

Erica: Oh gosh, that’s why it is such a, yeah. It’s such a process. I don’t like to tell people when I first started working with them, that it’s going to take years. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t feel better and that you aren’t having these co quote-unquote wins in the process.

But it, like you said, you were in high school. Hey, I feel this, or a lot of people it’s younger as well. And so, you’re trying to change a thought pattern of I’m too big. That’s been going on for how many years. And so, I always invite people to. Have compassion for yourself again, easier said than done because there’s this other part of you.

That’s sick of feeling this way. I don’t agree with this anymore. I just don’t want; I want to stop doing this. I want to stop thinking this. So, this impatience and this discomfort that you want to change, and you’re balancing that with, oh gosh, this has been around for a while. So, it’s going to take some time.

Nancy: Yeah, thanks for saying that. Because it’s very true, but it is also I can see. Now after having this conversation, going back to that, because for me, it started in college when there was so much pressure to look a certain way and go in and everyone was restricting and everyone, like that was the cool thing to do with overworking out and all that stuff.

To go back to that girl there and just pour on the self-compassion, to visualize her in my head and be like, wow, you were trying so hard to do it. And you just got a little lost and how you did it, and so let’s just. Reprogram that, and I like to avoid thinking about her because to me, that’s where all the evil started.

Yes. Yep. And it’s the opposite.

Erica: It’s the absolute opposite. It’s when she first came into contact with this pressure to conform and fit in, and like most people who diet, she came out on the other side with some of the things that she didn’t want to be dealing with as a result of the dieting part. Yeah. And that’s what we’re trying to get back to.

And the food healing process. You’re trying to get back to who you were before food got messed with.

Nancy: Ah, that’s lovely. That’s a lovely place to end. It was interesting when we first started before, I think even before I hit record, you said I love the, some of these conversations are the best when I’m talking.

Yeah. A therapist who doesn’t ha who has some of the skillset, but not much of the skillset, which is totally true. You’re like what happened? Like I’m like, I know what you’re talking about, but I still have a lot of crap when it comes to this stuff. And so, it’s just been really illuminating to me to chat with you about it, to combine, like I know this is.

Not that food is my last frontier because Heaven knows

Erica: a lot of people that can be though one it’s like a slow change.

Nancy: Yeah. It is something I know. I have an issue with that. I have just been like; I don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want to deal with that.

I don’t want to deal with that. And you are today. Have given me and hopefully the listeners some guidance on how to deal with that.

Erica: I hope so. I love talking with people who’ve done work in other areas of their lives because then you’re linking it up with all the positive that they’ve already done, and it just comes together.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So, tell people where they can find you and get information about what it is you’re doing. Yeah.

Erica: So, anyone can find me on my instagram@alignnutritionormywebsitealignednutrition.com and I’m often posting. Really thought-provoking content on Instagram. I’m showing up on stories.

I love getting DMS. I’m in the process of building an online program that comes out next week called realign. And yeah, DME, if you have any ideas or things that you want me to cover, I’m actively creating it right now. And I love to hear from people that really resonate with this type of topic and information so that we can create a solution together

Nancy: And you have to follow her on Instagram, but she is like incredibly responsive and is always on there answering questions. It’s really, I can’t say enough good things and not just because she’s a friend of mine really is amazing. So, thank you, Erica, for taking the time to do this.

Amazing.

Erica: Thank you for having me. So many people deal with anxiety. It gets linked up to food, and this just couldn’t be more important to be talking about.

Nancy: This interview was a game-changer for me in so many ways. Being able to openly share my avoidance issues around food, allowed me to see my patterns in a whole new light.

I am so much kinder now when I reach for the chocolate, and I’m quick to ask myself, what do you need? Sometimes the answer is chocolate, and sometimes I’m surprised because the answer is rest or a conversation with a good friend. Eric has point about the moral issues of eating really struck me as well.

So much of my judgment around food is a moral judgment. It is deeper than just craving sweets. When I’m stressed. It’s about a personal failure. Seeing this in the interview has allowed me to start loosening up this message. I started out this month, wanting to talk about avoiding our anxiety through various means, but I’m finding through each interview that the method we use to avoid also has its own messages from our mongers and from society.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

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Episode 127: Anxiety, Avoidance, and Money

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Jacquette Timmons a national investment expert and financial coach about money.

There is one thing almost everyone does when their anxiety gets high. 

They avoid. 

Whether through food, alcohol, social media, or money–we avoid. 

All this month, I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. We’re pulling back the curtains on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. 

We’re kicking this off this month by talking with Jacquette Timmons about money. 

Money and avoidance go hand in hand. Money is a very loaded topic for people in general, but especially those with High Functioning Anxiety. We avoid dealing with our money. We avoid talking about money. We engage in overspending or being overly controlling about money.

All of these patterns come from one place – avoiding our intentions and feelings about money. 

Jacquette Timmons is a national investment expert and financial coach. She is the founder of Sterling Investment Management, a New York-based investment education and financial coaching firm. She has worked in the investment industry for 23 years and conducts numerous personal finance and stock market investing workshops.

This conversation couldn’t have come at a better time. While I think any time we can intentionally talk about money is good, right now, with the current state of the world, this conversation is even more relevant.  

I learned so much from Jacquette in our conversation. We laughed and shared openly and honestly about the topic of money. She has a unique and refreshing approach to money management – one that we can all benefit from to ease our shame and anxiety around money. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Jacquette’s approach to money management is so unique

• What you can do to ease some of your shame and anxiety around money

• Why we avoid when it comes to money and what we can do about today

• What the role our family of origin plays in our approach to money

Resources mentioned:

• Jacquettetimmons.com

• Twitter: @jacqmtimmons

• Instagram: @jacquettemtimmons

• Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Jacquette: When you have those moments of feeling shame, you're like no. I don't have to feel shame. I've bumped up against this before and I've come through it and this is how I've come through it. So now you have, something, you can look back to where you can give yourself credit. And I think that's how you deal with the anxiety and the shame.

Nancy: There is one thing almost everyone does when their anxiety gets high, they avoid whether through food, alcohol, social media, or money, we avoid. All this month, I'm talking with experts in these four areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.

We're kicking off this month of interviews about avoidance, talking about money, and avoidance go hand in hand, we avoid dealing with our money. We avoid talking about money. We engage in overspending or being overly controlling about money. Basically, we all have stuff about money and it's a place that we tend to avoid.

Money is a very loaded topic for people in general, but especially those with high functioning anxiety, we all have patterns around money, overspending being overly controlling, or being unaware. All of these patterns come from one place, avoiding our intentions and feelings about them. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. This conversation came at a great time one because I think anytime we can intentionally talk about money, that's a great time. And two right now with the current state of the world, many of us are very anxious about it. Jacquette Timmons, a national investment expert and financial coach is the founder of Sterling investment management, a New York based investment education and financial coaching firm.

She's worked in the investment industry for 23 years and conducts numerous personal finance and stock market investing workshops. I learned so much from Jacquette in our conversation. We laughed and shared openly and honestly about the topic of money. I'm so excited to kick off this month's interviews on avoidance with Jackie.

Jacquette and I talk about why her approach to money management is so unique. What you can do to ease some of your shame and anxiety around money, why we avoid when it comes to money and what we can do about it. And the role of our family of origin plays and our approach. I am so excited today to have Jacquette Timmons here to talk about money when it comes to how we're avoiding things.

Welcome Jacquette

Jacquette: I am so delighted to be here. Thank you.

Nancy: You're so welcome. Okay, so let's dive in. So one of the traits of my clients and listeners is they tend to be super great planners and organizers, but when it comes to money, they have a tendency to avoid. Sometimes it's overspending, but it's not necessarily overspending.

They just don't have a real, honest relationship with their money. Why is this? And how do you see that trait showing up in your clients?

Jacquette: So I think one of the biggest things when it comes to avoidance is that. People are avoiding things because of what they are afraid to see what they are afraid that they will learn or discover.

And a lot of it has to do with identity. And if you have to confront something. It may or may not affirm the identity that you think you have or want to have and how you spend your money is so connected to that. And so you avoid it because there are either questions you're not yet ready to deal with or patterns of behavior.

You're really not yet ready to change. Or even become aware of the fact that you may need to change them.

Nancy: Oh my goodness. Just as you were saying that my stomach went like blech like that, hit home for me there. Whew. Because it is like a, it's you don't want to touch it. Like it's in this little box that I just want to keep buried there and not look into it.

And I never thought about the identity piece and how we're not. Congruent. Yeah. If I start looking into the finances, then I realize I'm not congruent and that's just too scary to go there.

Jacquette: Exactly. And I think it has to do with people's emotional capacity perhaps to deal with what they may discover that either they realize, oh, because here's the thing, at the end of the day, Yes, we are adults. And we, have gotten to the point where we've had our own experiences and we've made our own choices and we're living out with the consequences of those. And yet we can't discount the impact of our family backgrounds. And that's not to say whether those family backgrounds are good or bad it's to recognize that whatever they were, they have an influence on us.

And a lot of times people think that they are either. Doing the opposite of what they saw growing up and maybe they are, or they think they're doing the opposite, but they really aren't. It just looks different. Or maybe they are doing exactly what they saw growing up. And it depends on what you saw as to whether or not you embrace one of those three modes, but all of it goes back to being connected to identity.

Nancy: Okay. And is that an unconscious choice? Do most people know exactly what it is. They grew up doing what they saw their parents doing, or like they overheard messages of scarcity and fear. And so then they internalize that as messages of scarcity and fear, like how much of a do you think is a conscious.

Jacquette: I think most of it is an unconscious choice. I think it is something positive or something that you want to do. That's a positive response to a negative. So if you grew up where, there was always a shortage of money and now you're in a situation where you're making sure that there's never a shortage of money that would be doing the opposite, you grew up and talking about money was just as common as talking about what are we going to have for dinner tonight? And that's something that you want to continue. So that's conscious, but there are other things that I think people don't necessarily recognize that they are doing. So here's an example, cause I know that can maybe sound a little abstract, but here's an example for you.

Working with one of my entrepreneur, small business clients. And when I'm working with clients on pricing, I have them go through an exercise where it's like, who are the five people that you spend the most time with physically and, or just in general? Cause sometimes distance doesn't allow you to be physical, but you talk all the time.

So who are the people that you spend the most time with and who are the people that spend the most time in your room? And how are those people influencing you? And what, what of those relationships, what about them are energizing? You? What about them are draining you and what this one client discovered was that so much of how she was operating her business had a lot to do with wanting to prove her father wrong, even though.

And even though she was doing financially well, every time she would go home, it was like, oh, that's a good sweetheart. When you're going to get a real job. And that's an example of, sometimes you don't realize the way in which the. The messaging that you got around money and perhaps in that instance, how you earn it and what makes it valuable, you don't realize how it is impacting you.

So sometimes it can be, a conscientious choice and other times I think it's more subconscious, the influence.

Nancy: How do you start packing that, like if there's so much anxiety, like I know for me to be transparent, I got a ton of anxiety around money, lit is just it's literally in the box.

I don't look at it unless I have to. And then when I have to, I do, and then I freak out, then I put it back in the box. How do you start unpacking that?

Jacquette: Little by little tracking. So often when people hear me make the suggestion of tracking money, they think that I am making it for the financial purposes of creating a budget.

And actually that's a nice byproduct, but that's not why I'm asking people to track their money. For me, the purpose of tracking your money is so that you can begin to identify patterns and you can't interrupt a pattern of behavior that you're not recognizing. And so I asked people to track their money so that they can see what are they doing over a period of time, what's driving their choices, so you're not just capturing, what did you buy and how much money did you spend, but you're also capturing, was it something that you wanted or needed? Was it spontaneous? Was it planned? And the whole idea is to track without any sort of self judgment, but to track because you're collecting data. And the whole purpose of collecting that data.

And so that you can go back and objectively assess and ask, what is this data revealing to you? And when you do that, then you can understand what's the pattern when it comes to the things that you are avoiding, why do you avoid it? Who are the other people that might be involved? Is it connected purely to the money or is it the money connected to a person you can just begin to see all of the different connections that might be really useful.

Nancy: Yeah, that is fascinating. So you talk about. The idea on your blog, you said every day, you say something with your money, you can't help it. It's an expression of you. I loved that quote as much as I hate that. That's true. How did you come to that realization and why is that so important?

Jacquette: I'll answer the last part of your question first. Why is it so important? It is important because you, me, everybody, we use our money every day in some form or fashion, right? Whether it's cash, whether it's credit card, debit card, online transactions, online purchases.

And yet just because we're using our money all the time, it does not mean that we know what we have, that we know what we tend to do with what we have or why. And when I make the comment about, you're saying something with your money, every single time you're doing that something again, you're going into your wallet, getting whatever, or going online, you are expressing what's a priority for you in that moment or in general.

You are expressing what your values might be. You are expressing what your expectations are. You are expressing your beliefs, your behavior, your fears, like all of that is coming out. Even if, again, you're not really conscientious about it. And so what I, in that saying, what I'm trying to get people to understand is that it's never just about the money, right?

So you're just paying a hundred dollars for something, be it on your credit card or literally with cash. But there's a lot more tied into that transaction than just the dollar amount. And so what I'm trying to get people to do is to understand the other dimensions of it. And the first part of your question, which was around, how did I get to the realization that it was important is because I think sometimes, especially if we think about the moment in time, when we were recording our conversation, a lot of people don't feel like they have power.

And to me, when you recognize that every single day that you were using your money, that's an expression of something. What it's also an expression of is your power. And you may not like the choices that are available to you to make, but you have the ability to make a choice. And for me, that's a sense of power.

And so it's a way of also getting people to understand that even if you don't like your options, you still have a choice. And embedded in that choice is a sense of power that you don't have to abdicate to someone else that you can reclaim. So getting people to understand that. Yeah. It's not just about the dollar sign.

It's about what it is. Is that a moment helping you to do or what is it. That choice in that moment, helping you to do to me, that's really what I am saying. And I'm also hopefully saying that it can be a reflection of you in that moment, and it can be a reflection of you overall, because sometimes those identities don't necessarily have to be a hundred percent in alignment, but you have to recognize that, what if things were ideal, I wouldn't make this choice.

But they're not ideal. So I'm making this choice and that doesn't mean that who you are in general, like your character, it doesn't mean that you are a bad person or out of alignment with that in the bigger picture scheme of things. I don't know. Does that answer your question? Cause I feel like I went off.

Nancy: It does and yeah, it totally does. And I'm glad you brought up, that we're recording this in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic quarantine, because I feel like for a lot of my clients, getting, they feel out of control. So being able, especially. We are out of control. It's not even like we're feeling out of control.

Everything is out of control and everything is unknown. And so I'm so glad that we're having this conversation. Cause I think finances is something we only manage when we're feeling well. It's out of control or, like w when, it gets to a crisis point, and now at this point in the pandemic process, we could really start being honest about our money and focusing down on that, and that is something we can totally be in control of right now.

Jacquette: And I also would love to add onto that and just say if someone were to go to my website, the first thing that they're going to see is A counter to our cultural description of how we interact with money. And what I say is that you don't manage money, you manage your choices around my name.

And I think if we focus more on the choice, That also is a way of reclaiming power, regardless of the circumstances, either circumstances that you've created or circumstances that are a product of what you know was completely out of your control, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

I'm sure people want to know what's your background. How did you get into this unique way of looking at money?

Jacquette: Yeah. So from an educational standpoint, I do have my MBA in finance and. Yeah, it's really odd to say this, but this is my third crash.

My very first crashed, that I saw was in the crash of 1987, I was a year out of undergrad, as I'd like to say, still green behind the ears, working on wall street, not really understanding what the heck was going on around me, but witnessing two drastically different reactions to the crash.

On one hand, there were people that were really calm. And then there were others that were freaking out. And literally if they could have jumped out of a window, they would have, and I was just fascinated by that. I was fascinated by the extreme reactions. And what was it that they, that one group of people knew that the other didn't and why were they not talking 20 years old?

I'm 20 years old. About to turn 21. And I'm like, I don't understand this, but this is fascinating. And so that was really the scene that got me really interested in behavioral economics and behavioral finance. And it took many years to, figure out how do you get it out of the academic realm, if you will, and have it be more of a table, kitchen table kind of conversation.

But that's really what got me interested in it.

Nancy: That's fascinating because you are like a therapist for finances. Yeah.

Jacquette: Yeah. But the beautiful thing is that I love the reason why I love not being a therapist is because I can be friends with my clients.

Nancy: I know. I hate that.

Jacquette: Yeah.

And clearly when things get real, real deep, I will refer people to yourdomain. The things that are I know how deep I can go and I know when it's time for them to have professional help. Yeah. For, but yeah, it's definitely helping people unpack a little bit of their origin story and helping them.

Identify, what's the story that they now want to tell what's the legacy that they want, their relationship with money to express.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I think that, and this is just a rant on for my own on my own side. But I think that, so there for a while, there, there was the backlash against the origin story.

Like it was like, I help you move forward. That would be something coaches would say, I don't go in your past. I help you go from here. But man, there's so much in that origin story that we, that impacts us on a daily basis. And if you are not willing to go back there and at least look at some of them, Like you said, the beliefs you got in the stuff you just swallowed whole unconsciously that you're now playing out in your own life.

Yep. It's not to go back there and blame or ridicule or no, it's too early. The unconscious things that are affecting you now.

Jacquette: Exactly. And I think the key word there is not to blame. You're not blaming yourself. You're not blaming your parents or whomever raised you, it's really to amplify your awareness.

Excuse me so that you can make better smarter choices and make those choices from a more fully informed perspective, as opposed to not being aware of your blind spots. Cause we all have blind spots and th the more though we can put a spotlight on those so that we can figure out what do we want to do?

Embrace or not, the better quality of choice, because I think we're also always making choices, but the quality of those choices might be in question. So the idea is to make the best quality choice that you can make.

Nancy: That’s something that I talk about all the time, be kind to yourself, don't judge yourself, like we're just unearthing and looking at stuff, but with money, man, shame and money.

Whew. They go hand in hand. Big time. Raveling, that is just hard. And I love the idea of tracking your money. Like I'm going to start doing that, what to see, to be able to do that, but how can you get past I guess I just have so many blocks around it. How other than working with you, which would be an awesome idea.

How can you just slowly start moving past that shame and giving yourself. The permission that it's okay to do that. This is messy and it's okay to do it wrong. A couple of things.

Jacquette: One journal, I know that somebody might not necessarily have anticipated that answer.

Nancy: I did not.

Jacquette: A few clients, especially those that are challenged with feeling like they deserve their success, that they deserve the financial renumeration that comes with that. I have them journal. And the idea is to really just feel like you're writing either a letter to your money or you're writing a letter to whomever about what happened today with regards to money and.

It's very in alignment with the tracking mechanism, from the standpoint of, again, really reflecting on the conditions of your moment in that of your money, I should say in that moment in time. So if you're journaling every night and you're like, here, what's here. Here's where I not only spent my money, but here's how I felt like just going into a deeper dive than just tracking.

You can get a sense of what was going on for you in that moment in time. And the other thing is that you can have a better understanding of. Where, what are those situations that actually caused you to feel vulnerable? Where are those situations, or what are those situations that caused you to feel a sense of shame or a sense of guilt and who are the other people involved?

And again, The purpose of the journaling is not for you to go back and read it and to beat up on yourself, but it's to go back and read it and identify patterns because you can't, again, I'm going to say this over and over. You can't interrupt a pattern that you do not see. And and I also feel and this is not at all being disrespectful to anyone that subscribes to, saying mantras and all of that.

But I don't think you can think your way through to the other side. I don't think you can mantra your way through to the other side. You've got to do something. Yeah. And so this is part of the action. That gets you to move beyond the same, the shame, because when you do this, what your end, what you end up doing is you end up creating.

That shows you that you've overcome certain things. And that evidence is what gives you the confidence and that evidence is then becomes the antidote, the Ana, the en the antidote to when you, those moments of feeling shame, you're like no. I don't have to feel shame. I've bumped up against this before and I've come through it and this is how I've come through it.

So now you have. Something, you can look back to where you can give yourself credit. And I think that's how you deal with the anxiety and the shame.

Nancy: Yeah. Love. Cause the other thing that all that does is bring the money out of the box. It's very down deep inside and puts it a forefront. In your daily life.

And so you have to, then you're regularly dealing with it, which I think is in the spirit of this month of avoidance, that's a direct way of preventing that of stopping that unconscious pattern.

Jacquette: And then the here's the other thing, right? I know that some people maybe hear the words and they get it and then others hear the words and they don't really embrace it.

But we all have a relationship with money. And one of the things that I will tell people all the time is that it's one of the longest relationships that you want,

Just like any relationship that is of importance to you, of significance. It's multi-layered, it's nuanced, it's complex, it's emotional and it evolves. It does not stand static. So if you think about any other relationship that is important to you, more than likely there are dynamics about it there that are very different today than there were five years ago.

And they will probably be very different five years into the future than they are right now. You will have grown. The other party will have grown. You will okay. Different experiences and that will shape things. And that will change things. And while money may not necessarily be the thing that can talk back at you, it does give you feedback in its own way.

And the way that you also deal with the shame and anxiety is to just understand that, Hey, you've got a relationship with money B, it's not static. It's going to evolve. It's going to change. And then see. You might be having a shameful, anxious moment right now, which is indicative of whatever you're going through right now, but that's not forever.

It's just like when you have a fight with your significant other, your husband, your wife, whatever, a sibling, you might be mad as all get out into that moment. And you might have a right to be mad as all get out in that moment. Hopefully. And when you get paid or the process of getting past that hopefully strengthens the relationship and.

The idea, being that when you have challenges with money, hopefully when you get past that challenge, that's that is somehow giving you some insight as to how you can have a stronger relationship with your money and have it really be in a position where it's doing the things for you that you want it to do.

And I think that also speaks to the whole idea of that. We have to give our money direction. And I don't think we always necessarily operate with that awareness that we've got to be proactive about it. We can't be reactive.

Nancy: What does that mean? Give our money direction. Do you have an example?

Jacquette: Yeah, absolutely.

I think we've got it. Are what its role in our life is, what is its job. And we do that by determining, how much we, how much do we want to save and then practicing the discipline to do that. How do we want to invest? And I have a more broad definition of investing. So it's not just about, the typical definition of building financial wealth, which is important and owning more than what you owe, but also looking at, in addition to financial wealth, social wealth, how are you investing in other people's.

Time wealth is if you had all the time in the world, what would you do differently? Like how would your life be different physical wealth and wellbeing, wealth?

So what are you doing to take care of yourself? What are you doing to take care of your emotions and your mental wellbeing like to meet all of that is a part of the, investing and building wealth spectrum. But money is the part of that. How are you directing money in your life to help you achieve those things?

When it comes to wealth, what's your lifestyle? How is money playing a role in the lifestyle that you want to live? And the really big piece for me is really helping people to show. How they relate to earn from the standpoint of, I think many of us have been conditioned that the way the world works is yeah, you get paid and you make that work, you can take from what you side, what you're going to save, how are you going to invest it? How are you going to spend it? And, oh, by the way, you make those decisions after you've paid your bills. And there's nothing wrong with that. And culturally, we've been doing that for many years and some people are really successful.

But what I want people to begin to do is to say, Actually, no. How much do I want to say, why is that important to me in different dimensions? What's the full picture of how I want to invest it. How do I want to spend it? And then with that begs the question of what do I need to earn to make that happen?

It's a shift, but it is huge. It is so huge in terms of flipping things on its head. And again, going back to the whole power dynamic. There are absolutely things that we don't have control over it, but we can control our approach or at least control us moving. An inch more in the direction of living bore by what I call more by design than by the fault.

Nancy: Ah, I love that because I know so many of my clients just do the default. Yeah. People in general do that.

Jacquette: Absolutely. And that's. Income spectrums it's across the wealth spectrum. Like just because you are a high earner or just because you have a lot of assets that does not make you immune from any of the things we've talked about today, right?

Nancy: Yeah no. Okay. So I can imagine my client, listening to. Podcasts and being like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get control over my money. And so they go to the super extreme of they're going to be, really militant about it and tracking everything and doing everything. And then that gets to be too much.

And so they're like screw it and they go completely off the deep end like that all or nothing thinking. That person that has that.

Jacquette: Hey, slow down, slow your horses.

Slow your roll.

And the whole cliche is that it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It all applies. It's a cliche cause there's a reason behind it. So more specifically for that person, what I would suggest is you ask yourself five questions, whether you do that weekly, or you do it monthly. The first question is what did I spend this week?

That might be really easy to answer because you might use a tracking app. Where it gets tricky is the second part of that question, which is how much of that was spent toward my goals. I think a lot of people overlook is that the majority of their goals have a financial component to it. And a lot of people aren't really diligent about earmarking, a certain amount of money.

To go toward those goals. So it's one thing to be able to say, oh yeah, I know how much money I spent this week. It's another thing to be able to say. And I know how much of that I, spent toward quote unquote saving for a particular goal. So that's one question. The second question is what, if anything happened if you're doing this on a weekly basis this week, if you're doing it on a monthly basis this month, what if anything happened that caused me to unexpectedly spend money or make a financial decision?

The third question is. What do I have a financial win or a financial breakthrough? And one of the reasons that I, I have people answer that question is because again, culturally, I think we're so focused on our mistakes and our faults that we often don't give ourselves credit for the things that we do well.

So that's an opportunity to reflect and do that. The fourth question is, are you on track? Are you behind? Or are you ahead of your targets? Be it your savings targets or investing targets, your earnings targets, things of that nature. And then the last question is purposefully open-ended and it's anything.

The beauty of asking these questions even just once is that it'll help you to pause. And think about what's going on. The profundity though really shows up when you do it over time and you look at either how your answers change or how they stay the same. And there's a great deal of feedback for you and what in your answers to those questions over time.

So that's how. Benefit from making the commitment to change the behavior, but then also don't do a crash and burn of, having everything be full speed ahead, and then you wear yourself out and then you become distracted and then you don't do anything because the thing of it is oftentimes the only time that we're thinking about money is when there's a bill to be paid or there's a big transaction that needs to happen, or there's a crisis.

What this does is it helps you to integrate, engaging with your money the way in which you would engage in anything else that's important to you, but on a more regular basis outside of it being an emergency or a task, and it keeps it a little bit more on the front burner then as the thing that's on the back burner and you'll get to it when you need to.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause that's what I mean, those questions. Awesome. Because I know for me, back when Starbucks reopens,

that is so like, when I think about I will be driving to work and be like, Ooh, I'm going to stop and get a Starbucks. And, and that Starbucks app is just like from the devil, because it doesn't even feel like you're spending any money. It's just it's on the app. I gotta spend it making a conscious like that.

What happened that caused me to spend that money was I was feeling anxious or I was feeling tired or I just wanted to treat or reward. It was an unconscious action. And so I liked that question in particular, would it would help me focus on. Where am I taking these unconscious actions? Just because it's on an app and I don't feel like it's real money.

Jacquette: So there's that. And I want to be really clear though. I'm not the person that will tell you not to enjoy that latte or whatever it is that you're getting at. I'm not going to tell you, but I think you illuminated the value, which is to raise your kids. Yes around. Why are you doing it? So it's really interesting.

I don't know if you heard about this story? It was a research. Oh God. I think actually I think that researcher recently died too from Harvard Clayton Christianson, I believe was the researcher, but the point of this story is they were doing research on McDonald's. And what they realize is that McDonald's shakes were being purchased in the morning by people who drove to work and had long drive because it was filling and it was easier to eat while they drove.

They were not. As a snack in the afternoon. And when they recognize this, I don't know what triggered the research the reason for the research, but this is what they, this was the like, unexpected discovery. And so when they realize that they change the the recipe. So that the shake was thicker and then they were able to actually charge more.

What they realize is where they thought these shakes were like, for the teenagers after school, on their way, home from school. As an afternoon treat, it was actually the thing that was fueling people, driving to work, meaning to have some breakfast before work. And, it's easier to drink a milkshake as we drive than it is to eat a egg McMuffin.

Right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. That is fast. Yeah. Because some days there, yeah. I Just there's some days that I'm getting the Starbucks for reasons other than, like that I need the caffeine or, but when I'm oh, On the fourth day in a row, that's wait a minute. What's really going on here.

And I think that is what you're illuminating. Is that unconscious? Yeah.

Jacquette: Yeah. And exactly all my clients, the apple pay, I gotta be careful.

Nancy: Yeah, it is completely unconscious. Like it's just Mike monopoly money go on going out there. Yeah. And so I love this stuff because it is so applicable in a normal time and also so applicable now. During, what potentially could be some economic downturns coming our way and this, all of this stuff applies to that.

Jacquette: Absolutely. Absolutely. It helps you to, navigate the waters now when things are well, here's the thing. We're always operating with uncertainty, which is why I think it is so fascinating that the market, the stock market anyway is always, behaving when misbehaving, when it's like the market is uncertain, everything is uncertain.

That's always.

To not be flip about it. It is definitely a hyper uncertain time. And given that now is a really good time to take stock. And like one of the exercises that I gave of a client yesterday was, look at your spending for the last six months and look at your spending for January to March of last year.

And just see, where are you? Where are you? And that will help you to forecast and prepare for the next three and possibly six months. If things don't improve the way we would like them to be, you'll be in a position to be more proactive about how you respond, as opposed to just simply reacting.

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's. So helpful. So helpful. The knot in my stomach has gone away in this conversation today.

Jacquette: There's something to go away

Nancy: Seeing that it is an emotional process and, a lot of, and I don't always attach those two together so that it gives me a lot more expansiveness around thinking about it and it doesn't completely. I know some of my patterns, but I certainly don't know all of them.

And so just having, even having the questions really helps me see a way through which really start the process to pull it out and look at it now.

Jacquette: Exactly. Yeah. I, one of the things that I say to people is, your wallet is like a mirror, it's a reflective device. And so if we really do take the time and do that journaling, it's really.

Reflecting back to you a lot of information that you can use and insight that you can use in terms of what you want to change and how you want to change it. Yeah.

Nancy: It's yeah. So where can people find out about you and learn more about you and get out? Lovely resources and potentially work with you.

Jacquette: Yeah. So you can go to my website and that's Jacquette timmons.com and I would invite people to do the financial wheel exercise. It is free and that will really help them in terms of. Connecting with or recreating their financial vision, which is probably needed around right about now. Help you to live more by design rather than by default.

So there, and then I am, as very active on Instagram.

I just get such a thrill because I was such a late joiner to it. And so I'm like, man, I should've done this sooner anyway, but you can just put my name in the search bar. I kept Timmins. And yeah, you'll find me there on Instagram or Twitter or LinkedIn, but I'm really active on Instagram.

Nancy: Okay. This was so helpful.

Thank you. I know this will help a ton of people during this time. And like I said, anytime, so thank you. For taking your time to do this.

Jacquette: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed your questions and our conversation.

Nancy: Two things I want to repeat about what Jacquette shared that were huge takeaways for me.

Number one, being non-judgmentally curious about your money habits is amazingly helpful. Even those of you who have a tight control on your own. I believe we can always bring nonjudgmental curiosity to the subject to impact those stories we have about being a good person when it comes to money or doing it right.

The second thing was the importance of small changes, asking yourself the five questions she shared and slowly over time, bringing your money beliefs out of the darkness and into the light. So you can start to reshape your beliefs about money.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

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Episode 126: Setting and Keeping Habits

In today’s episode, I talk with Sarah Von Bargen about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway.

Habit is one of those words I have a negative reaction to. 

Like a lot of people, I have tried to create healthy habits and tried to be super militant about maintaining them, only to fail miserably. 

What are we supposed to do? On one extreme, we have the voice of the Monger who is constantly beating us down for this failure – not exactly motivating – and on the other, we have our BFF who encourages us to rebel against anything habitual. 

So, yeah, the word habit brings up all kinds of stuff for me. 

This is why I wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen of Yes and Yes, the “lifestyle blog for smart, funny people.”

Sarah is an expert in setting and keeping habits. She writes and teaches on Yes and Yes about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway. 

One thing that struck me about this interview with Sarah was her emphasis on small manageable changes – the opposite of my old pattern around habits. Healthy habits are not about all or nothing. It’s about habits that are small and realistic and intentionally honoring yourself (all that self-loyalty I talk about). Way less dramatic than my old way of being but far more productive!

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What it looks like to give yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit

• How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first

• How to tell the difference between caring for yourself and numbing out

• Some approached you can take to decrease your phone addiction

• Why the 21 days to set a habit is BS and how long it REALLY takes

Research and resources mentioned:

• Pomodoro Technique

• Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once the name becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself.

Nancy: Hey everyone,

before we get into regular programming, I just wanted to check in and say, Hey, how are you doing during these crazy times? I know from my clients and for myself, anxiety is high and I have been saying, you aren't doing it wrong. If your anxiety is high. You're just being human. So be kind to yourself, go hour by hour, and sometimes it will be minute by minute, check in with yourself, acknowledge your feelings and get into your body as much as possible.

Just so you know, I'm checking in every day on Instagram, live at 10:00 AM and then I'm sharing it on my Facebook and my Instagram. So feel free to tune in there for tips on living with high functioning anxiety, through COVID-19 and for now sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode. And I'll see you on the other side, take care of yourselves.

Be kind.

Today we're talking habits. Habits is one of those words. I have a negative reaction to. I spent so much of my life in extremes around habits, setting a goal to create healthy habits and being super militant about it, motivated by my monger only to fail miserably because our mongers they're not motivating and having my BFF step in and take me to the other extreme of having no habits and rebelling against anything habitual. So the word habit, it brings up all kinds of stuff for me. This is why I really wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen, who is an expert in setting and keeping habits.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Sarah writes and teaches about setting habits, money and happiness on her blog. Yes. And yes, as Sarah describes it, it's a lifestyle blog for smart, funny people. Sarah has a kind thoughtful way of approaching habits that I thought we could all benefit from Sarah and I talk about self-defeating behaviors, recognizing them and taking action, despite them giving yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit.

How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first. Caring for yourself versus numbing out, decreasing your phone addiction and why the 21 days to set a habit is total BS and how long it really takes.

Sarah. I am so excited to have you here talking about habits and how we are going to be forming habits.

What about habits intrigued you? How did you get into this life?

Sarah: Oh, gosh. I would say like many things that I have found myself teaching. It is something that I came to relatively naturally. And I didn't think what I was doing was noteworthy or a big deal, but I kept getting questions about what's your secret?

How did you do this? How did you pull this off? And I had to work backwards and realize oh, I was able to change careers in a pretty drastic way and become successful in a honestly very competitive field that lots of people drop out of it. Because I built a daily writing habit and then I worked backwards from there.

Okay. Like how did I build my daily writing habit? And that sort of was a light bulb moment for me that I did this thing that has affected my life in huge ways. And I know that can affect other people's lives in huge ways. And I think that it's I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once something becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards this goal or chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself. Of course, it, it takes a minute to build that habit, but once it's there, you don't even have to I have a pretty robust morning routine and honestly, my brain isn't even on for most of it. I'm not drawing down my control or my decision making, I just get out of bed and do these series of things because I've been doing them for years.

Nancy: Do you think personality type has something to do with it?

Sarah: I'm sure. Personality type plays into it. I am an I N TJ, I'm an Enneagram one. I'm a Virgo. If any of those things mean anything to you, you can just imagine what my brain looks like. So I'm sure that personality type plays into it, but also a lot of it is honestly like neurology like digging neural pathways, building new neural pathways self narrative. A lot of the tools that you would learn about in therapy apply to this kind of stuff. Literally writing down things with your hand to dig neural pathways. So some of it is personality based, but somebody is also just cited.

Nancy: So would you say it's I keep thinking lately that a lot of it is making a choice. Like it is like you have to make the choice to keep doing it, to rebuild those neural pathways.

Sarah: Yeah. You have to, you usually have to reach a point in your life where you either want something so badly, or you are so frustrated with the state of things that you are willing to engage.

You are willing to change things, and that doesn't just apply to habit, but it applies to everything like ending a relationship, changing the way. You eat the way you move your body, the way you spend your money, the city that you live in, but being willing to make a change and being ready to take the steps necessary is the first thing that needs to happen.

Nancy: So tell me about your favorite personal or work habit and why you started doing it?

Sarah: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I would say the habit that brings me the most joy is that every morning I read a novel on my sofa with my dog sitting in my lap while I drink a cup of coffee and it feels so luxurious. And so like it just, and I sit next to the window and I usually am reading something. I only read stuff I enjoy. It just feels so nice. Like I'm not rushing anywhere. I'm not trying to learn something that I can apply to my business. I'm just reading a book that I'm excited about while I drink coffee and like the sun rises over the neighborhood. And that's one of the eight parts of my morning routine.

But it's the part that really it really fills me up.

Nancy: . Okay. So that takes me to a big word. Like I could hear a lot of my listeners being like, how do that's so decadent,

Yeah, give yourself the permission. How do I deserve to do that? And they feel like they have to earn that. I'm only going to read a fiction book if I've earned it.

So how do you break that cycle?

Sarah: One of the things that I tell myself and I tell anyone I work with my students, my one-on-one coaching. And I literally have this printed out over my desk. And so this is, and I say this not as somebody who like this came easily to, this was something I had to work on, but you do not need to save happiness.

You do not need to earn. You do not need to put up off. Because I think, especially for, like the try-hard do goodery type A's of the world, which I'm raising my hand. Because I'm right there with you. We think like I can do something nice for myself after I finished this project, I can do something nice for myself after I like drop off that casserole at my friend's house.

After I cleaned the house, after I pick up the kids, after I fill out that spreadsheet. And when we keep putting it off the likelihood that's my half and it's going to be very low. And the other thing that I would say, something that I see happening so often is that when we spend our entire day making decisions managing other people, putting other people's needs before own.

By the time we get to the end of the day, the likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that is actually like good is very low. The likelihood that we're going to self-soothe by net watching seven episodes on Netflix by scrolling our phone by eating an entire bag of pizza rolls.

Again, I am raising my hand. Like buying things we don't need. The likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that's actually, if we step back and we think what actually makes me feel better? The answer is rarely entire big of pizza rolls. The answer is more like taking a walk with my dog next to the river, calling my best friend.

Reading a chapter from that novel that I liked, but when we have spent the whole day putting other people's needs before ourselves, before us, the likelihood that we're gonna be able to make decisions that are in our best interest is extremely low. So it's much better to do that stuff earlier in the day and do it more frequently to have a release valve.

So you're not making those awesome decisions later in the day, humans actually have, we have a limited, the psychological term for it is ego depletion, but basically what it means is we have a limited amount of ability to make good decisions. And we have a limited amount of self control, and we've all had this experience where we make a bunch of very virtuous decisions and then at 8:00 PM, everything falls apart.

So it's much better. Treat yourself early and often, do nice things for yourself early and often because otherwise you end up burned out. If you all know about Gretchen Rubin's four tendencies, rubric obliger rebellion. So if you are kind to yourself early and often, it's going to be less likely that you are self-soothing in unhealthy ways at eight.

Nancy: So it's like setting the intention in the morning. Yeah. Puts you in that head space of First I'm loyal to myself first.

Sarah: And one of the things, and this is going to sound like, oh, how could this possibly be effective? But I swear to God hand to God, this works.

One of the things that I tell. My students. So I teach a class about money and it's going to seem like where's the parallel here? But one of the things that I teach my students is on Sunday night, I want you to look at your calendar and I want you to plan two to three, lovely kind, enjoyable things for your week.

I want you to literally put them in your calendar, whatever, in your Google calendar, I'm in your paper planner, literally put your DM in your calendar. And keep your commitment to yourself to do those nice, lovely things that are going to fill you up. Because if you have things that are fun and lovely to look forward to, you are much less likely in the case with my bank, new students, you're much less likely to overspend on things you don't need because you know where your money and time and energy are going.

And we get 30% of our enjoyment from an experience from anticipating it. If we've all had this experience. Like I know my husband and I are going out to a really nice restaurant this Friday night. I already know what I'm going to order. I know what I'm going to wear. I know it. I know like it's like a 20 minute drive and I want to swing by this cute boutique on the way there.

I'm really excited. That experience is gonna be totally different than if it's 6:00 PM. I like was like, oh God, I don't want to cook. And like seamless over some, fun from my neighborhood Vietnamese restaurant. It would cost probably about the same, but the experience is totally different. So when you plan those lovely things into your week, you get more enjoyment out of them.

You are less likely to self-sooth in an unhealthy way. And again, because of the personality type of the people that you work with, you're actually. A better partner. You're a better employee. You're a better parent. You're better at everything because you're filling your own cup. I'm sure. I'm sure you talk about all the time.

You can't pour from an empty cup, right? Yeah.

Nancy: I love that. Especially the idea of, of looking forward to it, and the, and the idea, I was talking with someone else last week and we have people say to us so what in your life brings you joy like that? Is a buzzword question, and then I'll say, oh, like walking the dog or reading or going out to dinner with my husband.

And they'll be like no, like really? What are the things like as if my answer isn't good enough.

Sarah: Yeah. As though it has to be like, I only experienced joy when I'm standing under the Eiffel tower. No, there are so many things. And I think if we take a minute to step back, like literally in your daily life, when you're feeling happy, I have it.

I have it. In the notes app on my phone when I'm doing something that makes me happy. I have an, I have a note and ongoing note where I just take note of oh, being in nature by myself. Having lunch with friends on a weekday, going to a mat. And then I literally just add it to my notes app.

So then I can have a toolbox to draw from.

Nancy: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Going to the movies, movie matinee. That's like my favorite.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. It makes me feel so smug about my life choices. Like Tuesday, 2:00 PM. Look what I'm doing. And I go to a second run theater and so it costs literally two dollars what can you buy for two dollars, these days.

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. So the other thing I've heard you on a different podcast, and I don't think this was your phrase. I think it was the interviewer's phrase, the owning your time. And so the similar in the vein that you were just talking about, so many of my listeners are caring for everyone else in their lives, even in that sandwich generation where they have parents and the idea of owning their time feels impossible because they have so many pulls on it. How do you start owning your time when it feels like everyone else is owning it?

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Wow. That is, oh, I have so many thoughts about this. One thing that I would say is owning your time is going to be something it's going to be an ongoing process.

It is going to require some honestly kind of tough conversations, which I know can be difficult for, for this personality type. It's not going to be something that's ever perfect and you're going to get pushed back on it and something that I tell myself that I tell my students, I tell my coaching clients all the time is it is okay to say, no, you are allowed to say, no, you are allowed to disappoint people.

You are allowed to redirect people. If you want your time on this earth to feel the way you want it to feel. Yeah. You can't spend the entire time meeting everyone else's needs. And I know that is hard. I know it's hard to say no, I cannot make a cake from scratch for the church bake sale. I know that it's hard to say no, I don't want to drive you.

I don't want to drive my child, an hour and a half to that birthday party. Like I get it. It's totally hard. If you want you have to make some hard choices and you have to have some hard conversations. A tool that I use in bank boost, which again seems, this is my feel like a strange parallel, but we have a tool that I call the uncomfortable chart.

I encourage people to make moves, to do 20 uncomfortable things over the course of a month. And in the, within the confines of bank loose, it's about 20 uncomfortable things that will add more money to your bank account, but honestly it can apply to anything. And what I think is important is it's not about the outcome of the uncomfortable thing.

It's about the fact that you did it because. It is allowing yourself to be uncomfortable, allowing yourself to stand up for yourself, to advocate for yourself to say, no, it is a muscle. And the more you use it, the better you will get. And so it is literally a chart where I have if you're listening, you can't see this, but I have, I literally have gold foil stars that I put on my uncomfortable chart.

And, you can make something like. On a piece of paper and stick it next to your desk. Anytime you do something that makes you uncomfortable, like saying no, like redirecting someone like making somebody like disappointing someone, put a star on that chart and right next to it, what you did, because I promise you your life will change if you start to be okay.

With being uncomfortable.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I love that. That's such a great way of thinking about it and doing it differently, like practicing it in a way that's not just set a boundary and speak your needs, but I am going to practice being uncomfortable because that's the bottom line. That's what it is.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that so often we only want to give ourselves credit when there are some sort of like really cool end result. Like we only want to give ourselves credit when that magazine like accepts our pitch, or we only want to give ourselves credit when our kids on the honor roll.

But the fact is it takes lots of different attempts to, to reach those goals. And we deserve credit for making those attempts. Honestly, there's a limited amount that we can control in the world. Like you can't really control your kid's grades. You can't really control your parents' health.

You can't really control your bosses decisions. You can only control your own choices, your own efforts, your own interactions, but why not give yourself credit for making those efforts? Yeah, it was really uncomfortable to tell him to tell my coworker that I didn't want to come to her mom party.

It was really uncomfortable to tell my kid was super. Upset when I was like, no, I don't want you to drive you across town, in a snow storm to go to your friend's house. So give yourself credit for doing that uncomfortable stuff.

Nancy: I always tell clients they're allowed to be upset, like you're, your kid is allowed to be disappointed.

You don't have to swoop in and fix that. And that is something that a lot of my clients want to. They feel it's their responsibility to make everyone else okay. With their decisions and recognizing no, they're allowed to have that response and I'm allowed to have mine and we can move on with the day and they will get over it.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Yes. Disappointment is not fatal. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay, so this is a question that I'm like picking your brain personally. Something that a lot of my clients deal with is the kind of the all out, I, we go all out and then we crash. Yes. And then the all out burnout cycle and So how do you know if you're wasting time or if you're just being lazy?

Sarah: Oh gosh, that's a really good question.

Nancy: Like if you need it, like I need the rest, so I'm going to versus I'm being lazy.

Sarah: Really good question. I would say so a few things. One is I. I know for myself let's say that I have been invited to an event. And like I'm tired and the weather's kind of bad and I'm feeling like, I don't know.

If I decide not to go to that event and the feeling that I feel is relief. That means I'm taking care of myself. If the feeling that I feel is shame because I'm like backing out on something that I said I was going to do. That means that I'm not necessarily making the right choice. And I know that not everybody's brain works like that work like that.

And some people are always going to feel shame regardless, but that is something to think about. I think a lot of it also just starts with like really knowing your body. Knowing your brain, because I think most of us, if we pay attention our bodies, are you getting a headache? Do you have a stomach ache?

Are your shoulders up around your ears? Like your body is probably telling you like, okay, it is time to take a break. And the other thing that I think. I know that there is, if I'm truly in like recovery mode, like currently I'm sick and I'm trying to get better. And it is easy. This sounds strange, but it's easy to like for me to relax.

I don't want to say wrong cause that's has a judgment on it, but there's a difference between being like, I'm sick, I'm going to steam myself, I'm going to take a bath. I'm going to put on my comfiest pajamas and sleep. I'm going to watch one of my favorite movies.

That's different than like laying on the sofa and watching seven hours of Netflix. And so I think if you say that you're relaxed, Are you truly like doing things that are going to make you feel better? Like maybe, stretching a little bit foam rolling, like drinking some camomile tea or are you quote unquote relaxing by scrolling your phone for two hours?

Cause that's not actually relaxing. And I know, and that's, a podcast for another day about relaxing sort of wrong. But I think that's something worth checking in with yourself. Because we all need downtime, but are you actually giving yourself downtime that makes you feel better?

Or are you just like numbing out? Cause those are two different things.

Nancy: That's so well said because it was interesting this past. I wrote that question this past weekend when cause I've have gotten in the habit. Friday is my day off and I've gotten the habit of spending all day, Friday, most of the Friday, watching TV and playing some stupid game on my iPad and like totally cut off.

It is what you're describing as not helpful. It's not nurturing. It's not, it's just over and over again. And so I told myself this weekend, I was like, Stop playing the game. I'm doing one thing. The play in the game where I'm watching TV, I can't do both. And oh, it's been so amazing.

Sarah: Yes. It feels so much better.

Nancy: Yes. And then I get sick of TV faster because I'm like engaged in it. And so I've moved on, but it is that's, me recognizing like some of this is a choice. Like you are you're just unconsciously going through your day.

Instead of being intentional about how do I want to spend my day off? And sometimes I do want to completely shut off my brain, but I don't need to do that for the whole freaking day.

Sarah: And you can also completely shut off your brain. But I would say it's especially with phone use and TV watching, there's a point of diminishing returns, and you can shut off your brain and other ways, like going for a walk, taking a bath, reading a nonsense book, napping, going to a matinee of a silly movie.

There are plenty of ways to shut off your brain, but I would say. Watching Netflix for seven hours is not. And also yeah your back's going to hurt from laying on the sofa.

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It has some, diminishing returns for sure. And I know you've been very intentional, which I love about your phone.

What are some of the ways you've decreased that obsession?

Sarah: Yes. So one thing is I charge my phone. Upstairs. So like I work down, I work on the main floor of our house and so I charged my phone upstairs. So it's just out of sight, out of mind. I, and where I charge it is not next to my bed. So there's no option for me to wake up and immediately look at my phone.

So one of the things I teach in habit school is make it easier to be quote unquote, good and harder to be making it easier, to be good and hard, to be bad. And of course, obviously in quotes there about cooking bad. Obviously, there are all sorts of things we can do emotionally, psychologically about temptation, but just make it easier to not pick up your phone.

So charge it or store it out of sight. I don't do this, but I, if somebody really has a phone addiction make it gray scale movie apps that you want to be. Completely delete the app. That's not an option for you. Move it off the home screen and put it in a folder that says something like, are you sure there are a bunch of apps that you can install on your phone that track your phone, use that block you from using certain stuff?

The thing that I do that I have found incredibly helpful is I simply. Unfollow Instagram accounts that aren't triggering for me or make me feel less then if for some reason I feel like I can't unfollow them because it would be, it would make some sort of relationship awkward. I mute them. And the other thing that I do is in my explore page on Instagram, I go through and I will mark either.

I don't want to see this. So if I say something that's really like diety or very, like a 22 year old influencer, who's like a millionaire with a six pack. Like I don't want to see that. So I mark that as I want to see less of that. And then I will also think about what do I do?

More of one of the things that I talk a lot about with my coaching clients is you want to corral evidence of what is possible. What is the thing that you are working towards? What are the stories you're telling yourself? I can't have that. I can't do that. And then you want to find evidence on Instagram that's possible.

So let's say that you are in your late thirties, early forties and you were trying to get pregnant. And you're feeling really that's really hard and sad. Are there Instagram? People who you can follow, who have done that successfully. If you are training for a marathon, can you corral evidence of other people who are doing that?

If you are, you're trying to start an Airbnb, can you follow people who have done that? So fill your Instagram feed with people who are doing the stuff that you want to do, or having the success or achieving the goals that you want to achieve, who are also, and also with as much as possible, like within your demographic, because if you are a 45 year old, stay at home, mom who lives in rural Oklahoma, like falling, a 22 year old influencer who lives in New York, who's doing that might not be that helpful.

But if you can find people who are closer to your demographic who are having the success and achieving the goals that you want to achieve, it can be incredibly hard. To see if this is possible for them, it can be possible for me as well.

Nancy: I love that. Yeah. So again, back to that intentionality of setting yourself up for, yeah.

Okay. So now I want to switch to the idea of self-defeating behaviors. That you talk a lot about, so walk us through your process for identifying self-defeating behaviors and then how we start reversing them.

Sarah: I always pretty much with everything that I do, I always like to start with one at a time, because the truth is most of us have 75 self-defeating behaviors.

Like we have a lot. So let's try to find what is the biggest pain point? What is the thing. That you are doing most frequently, that is putting distance between you and what you say you want. And so this might look like spending money. You shouldn't be spending eating things that are bad for your health being in contact with friends or romantic partners who you shouldn't be in contact with numbing behavior, buffering behavior, drinking more than is healthy for you, that kind of stuff.

So if you can identify what is the one. Let's start with one, one behavior. And then something else I think is really important to understand and acknowledge is that, and that can remove a lot of shame around all of this is that every behavior is a need trying to be met every self-defeating behavior that you are engaging in at some point in your life.

That behavior made sense. So if you are. And I'm not talking about alcoholism because obviously that's a whole other thing, but if you drink more than is healthy for you more than you want to, maybe that started out in college when you were a little nervous socially, and it was a way for you to fit in and then you move to a new city and it was way for you to connect with your coworkers.

And now your peer group doesn't really drink as much, but you're still engaging in that behavior. So I think it's also really important to approach this stuff. Like without shame and understanding. There was a reason that you did that and at a certain point in your life, like honestly made sense you're at a different point in your life and now we're ready to change it.

It doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you are not smart or that you're lazy. It's simply things have changed. And I also tell people all the time is like some of the most famous, successful people that, Oprah has struggled with eating Obamas. I don't know if he still does, but he smoked.

Larry, I think it was Larry King has declared bankruptcy multiple times. Like some of these behaviors, incredibly smart, successful people struggle with this stuff all the time. It doesn't make you less than to struggle with this. So number one, start with it. Start with. One, what is your biggest pain point number two realize that every behavior is in need trying to be met.

And number three, I would say what we want to do is try to figure, and of course the self-defeating behaviors, they have multiple triggers, but again, if you can find the most common triggers. For a self-defeating behavior, you can work towards changing your response to that trigger. It is very hard to change a trigger, but you can change your reactions to the trigger.

So again, working with the example of drinking more than you want to, maybe one of the triggers for you is socializing. So then you can decide. Okay. My friends, my coworkers have invited me to happy hour. I can either not go to happy hour. I can go to happy hour and I can order seltzer. I can order an appetizer.

I can order a Coke. And also if you are comfortable that you can tell your coworkers, Hey, I'm trying to drink less. So if if you see me ordering a beer, call me out on it. Yeah,

Nancy: I like that. Cause I think, especially for that example, W was one of mine that I was trying, and I, so I stopped drinking for a while to try to get that under control.

And it was the idea I, and I was doing, it was the socializing was a big part of it. And then having something at the end of the day, like I liked having a fancy drink at the end of the day. And once I figured out that it was the fancy drink, it didn't matter that it was a glass of wine. It was just that when I'm done with my day, I need something that signifies the end of the day.

Yeah. So that could be an NAB or that could be a juice with seltzer, in a fancy glass. It doesn't matter. But yeah. And it also was getting, having the experience of doing a bunch of social situations without drinking to know that I could do it.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And something that, I think something that I teach my clients as well as something that I call a choice.

Which is I don't try to encourage anybody to go cold Turkey to go from having seven cocktails to only ever having seltzer. But what is one choice up that you could make? So like instead of having four drinks, could you have three instead of driving to target and buying $200 worth of stuff, could you drive to Goodwill and buy 20 bucks of stuff?

What is one choice up that you could make? Something that is. Slightly healthier because for the most personality types going cold turkey is not sustainable. And then you fail and then it reinforces your narrative that you're not good at this. Yeah. Yeah. And it is challenging.

Nancy: I think too. I think a lot of my clients struggle with that idea of that.

If I can go, I still won quote unquote, by going to Goodwill and only spending 20 bucks, make sure you celebrate that win that you made a different choice.

Sarah: . Yes. Yes. And also like you are allowed to take imperfect action in the direction of what you want. Like you do not if you expect yourself to only ever make perfect choices in the direction of your goals and your habit change you're really gonna struggle.

And it's it's okay. It's okay to maybe the habit you're trying to build is going for a 30 minute run seven days a week. You can still give yourself credit for going for a 30 minute block or a 15 minute run. If you are holding yourself to impossibly high standards, the likelihood that you're going to fail and fall off the wagon is very high.

Nancy: So I want to talk about 21 days to create a habit.

Sarah: So that's why, and this is one of the things that like, this is a soap box that I climb on top of. If you've ever read a women's magazine, if you've ever read like a listicle, this is a factoid that's just bandied about honestly, pretty irresponsibly the statistics.

And this is backed by Sociologists psychologists, psychiatrists. It actually takes closer to 65 days to change a habit change from 12 days to 265. And it varies from person to person and have it to have it. So let's say that it took you 65 days to build the habit, to floss your teeth. That does not mean that it's going to take you 65 days to build a workout habit or to build a writing habit or to build a meditation habit.

It, and this is people don't want to hear this, but I think it's so important to know that if you built a flossing habit in 65 days, it might take you 200 days to build a meditation habit, or, maybe it could take you 12. But again, when we set these unrealistic expectations for ourselves, we are so much more likely to fail.

And when we fail and then we start telling ourselves a story I'm not good at this. I can't change. I'm not good at habit change. I should just give up if we are literally making it harder to succeed in the future, because we're strengthening this narrative of what we can and cannot do.

Nancy: So in the 65 days, or just to pull that randomly, is that some of that is the imperfect action.

Sarah: Yes. Yes.

Some of that is failing. Yes, absolutely. So one of the things that I teach in my course habits, school is something that I call a bookmark habit because the parts of my brain, the part of my brain that makes long-term decisions that are in our best interest is different than the part of our brain that makes decisions in the moment.

We've all had the experience where like in the moment, the part of our brain that makes the decision. It doesn't want to, for us, it wants to buy the things that's on sale. It wants to eat the whole bag of pizza rolls. It wants to text our bad news acts. It wants to order three cocktails. But the part of our brain that makes longterm decisions is the part that can say you said you didn't want that.

So I always tell people ahead of time. Let's say you're trying to build the habit of working out every day. So what are you going to do when you're traveling? When you're sick, when the weather's bad, when you have car issues and you can't drive to the damn gym, what is your bookmark habit? What is the sort of the light version of the habit that you can engage in when things are not ideal?

Because if you can come up with that ahead of time, then it's basically a contingency plan. So you already have this plan in place. So then when the weather is bad, Or when you are sick, you have a solution to turn to, instead of just not doing it, because when we don't do it, the likelihood that we're going to give up and fall off the wagon and then reinforce that negative narrative is very high.

Nancy: So give me an example of a bookmark habit for like the working out.

Sarah: So let's say so for me, I walk my dog every day from eight 30 to nine. And that is, I do other stuff, but that's sort of one. Yeah. Bigger workout things. And if it is really cold because she's a little dog, she doesn't want to be outside for half an hour.

We will just do a short walk. If I am sick, I will do something inside during that same time period. Okay. And when I am traveling, I still go for a walk in the morning. I obviously don't have a dog. I don't, I'm not, on a timer. Sometimes I go for a walk at 10, if I'm on vacation, but I still go for a walk in there.

Recently, I usually, I walked it off from eight 30 to nine, but a few weeks ago I had a podcast that I was recording that was at eight 30. So that wasn't an option. So I walked, I took her for a super short walk. I think it was like two blocks. It took seven minutes, but I still kept my promise to myself and I still stayed on the wagon.

I didn't, I didn't tell myself the story that I don't have time for this. I also know myself well enough to know that if I say. I'm not going to walk her now. I'll walk her in the afternoon. That's not going to happen. I know that if I need to walk her, it needs to happen in the morning.

And sometimes I don't walk or sometimes it's just me walking myself because putting her in her snowsuit and putting Musher's wax on a project, it's too much of an endeavor. So I just walk away.

Nancy: So it's not only the commitment to the activity. It's the commitment to the time.

Sarah: Yes. And that's for me some people, that's not an option because of the realities of their schedule, but that's an easy way to do it.

This time has been blocked off for this activity and maybe I can't do the activity in that exact way, but I can do something related to that actually.

Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. I like that. So as I'm creating the habit I'm not, I'm also, I'm in this example, I'm creating the time I'm creating the habit, but am I, do I have baby steps or are my all in.

Sarah:

You mean? Do you start out like not working out, like you work up to work more? For me, because this is literally just walking my dog, so it's not hard, but I wouldn't say let's say your habit was going to the gym. What I always tell people is the habit is going to the gym.

We're not talking about taking it super, like taking a hit class. We are not talking about whaling on your glutes for 45 minutes. The habit is going to the gym. Keeping your promise to yourself is going to the. Sometimes you can go to the gym and literally walk on the treadmill on the slowest pace for half an hour or sit in the hot tub.

But we are building the habit of putting on workout clothes and getting yourself to the gym, swiping yourself in and being there for a set period of time. And then once you've got that habit, once you've done that, and you're keeping your commitment to going to the gym, then we can start worrying about, arguing.

What are you doing when you're there so much? I think a lot of people are so resistant when I tell them that because they want to dive into, going to the gym five days a week and then really going hard out. That doesn't work. Like y'all can try it, but it doesn't work.

Nancy: Because as you were describing that about going to the gym and just, going to the hot tub or just swiping and like my stomach started going, oh oh, that sounds no, I want to do it whole hog. But no, that makes a lot of sense.

Sarah: Yeah. And like you can there's no, I'm not saying that you can't go whole-hog but allow yourself. Go whole hog on Tuesday and then on Wednesday, go and sit in the hot tub and on Thursday, be on the treadmill and then on Friday, go whole hog again. But it's about keeping your commitment to yourself.

And again, and also like any physical therapist or trainer will tell you, like going whole hog seven days a week is not actually good for your body. Like you need recovery.

Nancy: So it's so in that example, my habit is I'm going to start trying to build the habit of going to the gym. And then I get that habit.

Like I go to the gym, I do my thing. Then I'm trying to build the habit of going 30 minutes on the treadmill.

Sarah: Yes. Yes. And I would also say you probably want to do, you don't want to go to the gym and sit in the hot tub seven days a week. Like you want to do something, but I think ultimately people will get bored sitting in the hot tub seven days a week, but just start out by Really cementing that habit and something else that I tell people too, when they're resistant to this approach is the time is going to pass anyway, your life is going to continue anyway.

So why not do this slowly? So it works because when you ask so much of yourself and you push yourself so hard, the likelihood that you're gonna fail is very high. If you have 20 years left of your life or 40 years left of your life or 50 years left of your life, why not do it slowly and get it to work?

Like what's the rush? Do it right. Do it slowly build these habits that can last for the rest of your life, rather than doing this feast and famine sprint and fail thing.

Nancy: Yeah, that's so true. And I really like what you said about honoring the commitment to yourself. And that's what this is about.

Like I'm going to the gym, not because I need to go whole hog, but because I made a commitment that I want to be working out more and that I feel better when I do and all that underneath the habit. Yes. Cause sometimes my listeners get really stuck in the, check it off the list instead.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. And you can check it off the list that you went to the gym, even when you just worked on the treadmill for 30 minutes, like you're allowed to check that off.

Yeah. Cause that's the habit.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. I love that. That's a thank you for walking us through that because I think that's was helpful. Okay. Then my last question for you is just because my listeners absolutely love systems and they have a belief that if they find the right system, everything in their life will be perfect.

Which I know is a myth, everyone out there but I want to hear about the Pomodoro technique that you use.

Sarah: Oh my God.

So if you are not familiar, the Pomodoro technique is you monotask, which basically just means doing focus, work for twenty-five minutes, and then it's and you get five minute breaks. And during the break you do something that is unrelated to the other task that you were doing. So maybe. So it is not spending 25 minutes writing emails and then spending five minutes on Facebook.

It's 25 minutes on emails, five minutes, taking the laundry out of the machine or 25 minutes working on a presentation five minutes, like going and getting a coffee from the break room. And something I would also add knowing the personality type of your listeners is that it can be very tempting that like when you're in flow, When you're in the zone in that twenty-five minutes and think, oh, I'm just going to keep going.

The timer went off and I'm going to keep going, resist that urge, because I know what I have found with myself when I do that, I will work really focused for maybe an hour and a half. And then I am completely 100% burnt out, burnt down to a Frizzle, and I can't do anything else for the rest of the day.

Cause I've overworked. So really take those breaks. Because when I do that and when I take those breaks, I can sustain really focused work for hours at a time. Whereas when I just do some huge stretch where I work without any breaks for two hours, the rest of the day is useless because I'm so burnt out.

Nancy: Cause I, when I've done this, I totally agree. Cause I've definitely, every time I hit the 25 minutes, I'm like, oh, I'll just keep going. And and you're right when I have done that it bites me in the butt, but sometimes I find that the five. Like I'll go down to do laundry. And then I get, it turns into 10, 15.

Sarah: Yep that definitely happens. And sometimes depending on the situation, sometimes I'll be like, you know what? Like I need to finish. I've put the laundry in the machine. I'm not going to leave. So sometimes I will finish it, but it just depends on the thing. And sometimes I'll, I'll have a spend my five minute break doing like stretches or cleaning the kitchen where it's something I can just abandon when time is up.

Nancy: And is this mind brain chemistry scientific neurologically how we work?

Sarah: Yes. Yes. Because the amount of time that we can spend in a focused task I think, I think humans can actually spend more than 25 minutes, but sustaining. Over the course of, seven, eight hours that is quite difficult.

And the other thing that I do that I think can be helpful for your listeners is when I have my to-do list for the day, I do not write like finish sales page or, finish that presentation. I say, spend two hours on that presentation and then I'll write four little circles for four Pomodoros.

And then I will color them in as I complete them because we often lovely. We're often very wrong about how much time we think something will take. And if we say, if we set the goal of finished that sales page, and then we don't finish it, we feel terrible. But if we S if we set the goal of spend two hours on that sales page, we can do that.

We can say yes, I kept my promise to myself. I spent two hours on that sales page. I love that. Cause that's so freaking true. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. It takes, it really takes me about a week and a half to write a good sales page which I learned the hard way, because I would, set the goal for myself to finish my sales page, in four hours.

And that is not how it works,

Nancy: no, not at all. So is there a resource you'd recommend to learn more about Pomodoro.

Sarah: I would say just Google it. And it's not much more complicated than I just explained. I know that their app, you can download and stuff and there's a website, but honestly I just have a timer in my phone.

I have two timers that are saved. One that is 25 minutes and I use a little emoji of a laptop with that timer. Okay. And then I have a five minute timer saved and I think there's like a person walking for the emotive.

Nancy: Okay. That's awesome. Okay. So now tell me about where my clients can find you, how they can work with you, all that good stuff.

Sarah: Yes. I am most active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram stories every single day. My website is yes and yes. Dot org. I have been blocked. For God, 11 years. So there are literally thousands of blog posts in the archives. So anything you want to know about like money, habits, goals, mindset, there's stuff in the archives about it.

I have several online courses that I run make it to Cabot school. There's a self-paced version of that, that you can. Sign up for it at any time.

Okay, Sarah, thank you so much. This was really helpful and just I'd love to pick your brain. So it was helpful.

Sarah: Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy: It was helpful for me as well as my listeners. So that's awesome. The one thing Sarah kept repeating over and over was small manageable changes the opposite of my old pattern around habits.

They are not about all or nothing. So first we need to change our way of thinking that to create a habit. We have to do something big and permanent and forever. Creating healthy habits is about being intentional, honoring yourself, all that self loyalty I talk about and making them small and realists. Be intentional, be kind and make small, simple commitments to yourself.

That is way less dramatic than my old way of being, but far more productive.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

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Episode 123: Helping Women Design A Life They Love While Avoiding Burnout

In this episode, I chat with Rebelle's Shannon Siriano Greenwood who went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number.

We have all heard this story: 

A woman has hit rock bottom. She is burnt out and is experiencing her dark night of the soul. Cornered by life, she feels like she has nowhere to turn.  

And then, miraculously, she has some major ah-ha moment–lightning strikes and everything is fixed. Birds sing, everyone breaks out into song, and the struggle is gone.  

I used to be addicted to these transformational stories. 

These stories gave me hope that permanent change was possible. That one day I would be healed. I would be perfect. 

The truth is, these stories of sudden transformative change keep us trapped and miserable. They feed us the lie that if we are still it is because something is wrong with us. They tell us that we haven’t suffered enough or that we haven’t been good enough to be transformed.

My guest today, Shannon Siriano Greenwood, went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number. 

Shannon is the founder of Rebelle, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries, and Rebelle Con, a boutique conference about wellness, money, community, and creativity. Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned going through her own dark night of the soul experience. 

Shannon is committed to change and to mental health as an on-going daily practice. As you will hear, some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Shannon’s friends and family did not say anything even though they thought she was pushing too hard

• What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults

• How to manage your energy as an introvert when you are trying to build new relationships

• How to set boundaries when you have not only a fear of missing out but a fear of hurting people

And what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways

Resources Mentioned:

• RebelleCon

• @ssiriano
  

• @rebellecon

+ Read the Transcript

Shannon: And yeah, it took so much to slow me down, which is why I recognize just how deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and I am hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter. But I think coming from such an extreme case, it makes me that much more empathetic to how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode.

Nancy: We've all heard the stories a woman goes through burnout, woman hits rock bottom woman goes through a dark night of the soul, has some major ahas. And she says, I am healed. Everything is fixed. Birds sing. Everyone breaks out into song and the struggle has gone. I used to be addicted to these transformational stories.

They gave me hope that permanent change was possible. And that one day I would be healed. Perfect. I now know that this hope was false. In reality, these stories keep us trapped and miserable because they feed the lie that if we're still struggling, it's because something is wrong with us. We haven't suffered enough, or we haven't been good enough to be transformed.

My guest today Shannon Siriano Greenwood did go through burnout, but her story was far from simple and wrapped in a bow. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Shannon Siriano. Greenwood is the founder of rebel, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries to share and learn from one another and founder of rebel con a boutique conference that brings speakers from across the country on such topics as wellness, money, community, and creativity.

Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned. She needed the most after her dark night of the soul experience. Shannon does an amazing job of sharing what her story taught her about the changes she had to make in her life and how her commitment to her mental health is an ongoing daily practice.

As you will hear some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. Shannon and I talk about her story of burnout, not just that transformational story, but the nitty gritty details. Why her friends and family did not say anything, even though they thought she was pushing too hard.

What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults being an introvert and how to manage your energy when you're trying to build new relationships. Saying no and setting boundaries when you've not only a fear of missing out, but a fear of hurting people and what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways.

Shannon. I'm so excited to have you here and to get your insights into letting go of the striveaholic in all of us or working on letting go of the striveaholic.

Shannon: Thank you for the clarification.

Nancy: (Laughing) That's why this is going to be a good one for people.

So I just want to hear you talk about how you're helping women navigate, designing a life that they love while avoiding the cultural pitfalls, telling us to hustle more and ride the edge of burnout. Would you say that's accurate?

Shannon: I would say that's the goal.

Absolutely. Whether I'm successful or not is not really any of my business. Exactly. But absolutely. The whole reason for my business. And the work that I do was my own experience with burnout and the fact that while I was burning out multiple times in my life no one, really saw anything wrong

Nancy: oh, isn't that telling?

So I want to hear that story and not from the pretty looking back. Here's the bow. Oh, I learned all these things, but from the nitty-gritty. What was it like being in it? How did you recognize it? How did you not recognize it?

Shannon: You don’t just want my hero journey. (Laughing)

Nancy: No, I do not. (laughing)

Shannon: I guess I'll give you the real story.

I burned out multiple times in my life and I think the most recent one was the most grand of all of those were announced. And sadly for me to even be aware of what it was, it had to be super grand. I have always, worked very hard. That's a value that my parents would probably say is one of the things they're most proud of me for how hard I work and how I'm willing to do what it takes to get the thing done.

These are all, Good qualities if in control, but not when, out of control, which is, how it actually works in real life. Let me paint the picture for what my life looked like. I worked a full-time job that I absolutely loved as the director of marketing for this really fun restaurant nightclub entertainment venue, but then I had the entrepreneurial itch.

So I started a business on the side, which was a boutique cycling studio so spinning. So this is before boutique fitness was really a huge thing. So it was definitely a risk at the time. Put my own money into this business, but started the studio. It was going really great. And then three months into me working full-time and running this business on the side, I got pregnant with my first baby.

Nancy: Oh wow.

Shannon: And I was teaching four fitness classes a week.

Nancy: Oh my gosh.

Shannon: Managing all the things. And I was used to piling it all on. So I just thought when I have this baby, I'm just going to strap him on and keep doing all these things. And so even what's funny to me is other mothers, knowing what it's like to actually have a human being like come from your body and then take care of it and keep it alive. No one questioned me. They all looked at me and saw me as this totally capable person that can handle more stress than the average person. And no one gave me any because for pause.

And so had this baby strapped them on, tried to keep doing what I was doing and obviously it came to a screeching halt. When I was suffering from postpartum depression brought on by all of the things by doing way too much and overextending and not taking care of myself and just having, the hormones and actual chemical things that go on in your body after you have it.

So I started having suicidal thoughts and I would walk around my neighborhood and pray that a car would hit me and think about in detail what the angle, it would have to hit me, but not hit the stroller. And just going through this mind, I was like, all right. If I see a car, like how close do I need to be?

Just also I was, really like thinking through it a lot. And even that wasn't a flag for me. Okay. So I just thought, all right, I just need to reorganize my life. So I quit the job. I was like, I can't do both. I'm just going to do the business and the baby and teach and that's too much.

It's just too much. I still didn't feel better.

Nancy: So wait, let me pause. You recognized, so you recognized it was too much.

Shannon: I recognize it was too much, but not a problem. This is I just need a new system so I can figure this out.

Nancy Totally. Okay.

Shannon: So this is how high functioning I am. And so then I'm like, you know what, still not happy.

I think it's this business. I'm not getting along with my partner. I think if I get rid of her, then I'll be okay. And, our partnership dissolved and ended up I ended up leaving. She kept the business. So quit the job. Sold the business decided that I'm keeping this baby because I did grow him and I'm an energy, so I'm gonna keep him, (Nancy Laughing) but still just total mess and would just have bouts of crying for hours and hours.

And again though, no one around me saying Shannon, these are signs that something really bad is happening. And so it wasn't until I was at the pediatrician with my first baby, he had a little cold, nothing bad. I am at the pediatrician sitting in the lobby, hysterically crying, just openly weeping, convulsing and crying.

And I had this light bulb I've never seen anyone else crying like this in public ever.

Maybe something is going on. (both laughing)

Maybe I should take this recommendation of a friend and find a therapist or a doctor. And yeah. It took so much to slow me down. Which is why I recognize just how like deep, deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter, but I think coming from such an extreme case it makes me that much more empathetic.

Really how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that's my not beautiful story.

Nancy: I love it. So do you think you would have heard them if the people would have said anything?

Shannon: No I think I was in such denial of what control I had over things, it was just a problem that I needed to fix for myself.

No one else had the answer or advice or anything that I needed to hear.

Nancy: But I think it's interesting because it is, it wasn't that they didn't care. It wasn't that they didn't notice it was, she has this, like you had convinced them. That is how good you were.

Shannon: That's one of my greatest strengths and like worst weaknesses, that I can convince people just about anything. And that I'm fine. When I'm fantasizing about cars running into me

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I actually wrote a blog about that. If you're, if you are, because it's pretty common.

Because then it's oh, then I can get a break, then I can rest

Shannon: Worst case scenario. I die best case scenario, right? I'm in the hospital for awhile and someone else has to deal with all my stuff. And I can just be in the hospital again, not thoughts that you should have exactly when your life is in balance, right?

Nancy Yeah. Okay. So this happens. What did you do.

Shannon: Yeah. I got on the waiting list to see a therapist because let me tell you, it is hard to find a therapist. And so I called all these places, including my OB GYN, who should have been also looking out for these signs of depression after having a baby, but it's mistake.

Because I'm really good at faking. And I was on the wait list there too. So I waited for a couple of weeks. And then fortunately I got in to see someone and even just the recognition of yeah, no, this is not you. Something is going on with you. You probably have things going on in your life that are causing you extra stress.

And you're adding the layers on top of things, but. you have anxiety and depression and you need to deal with that. And then you'll be able to deal with other things, even just that awareness was like, game-changing okay. But then I use my like old habits of like hustle hustle to fix my anxiety and depression.

So I hired a life coach. And I went to an energy healer and hired a dietician to help me work on my diet. And like literally went right back into those terrible habits of like, all right now that I know I'm going to fix this and I'm going to find out all these things about myself and then it wasn't until I like got a little further down the path that I realized oh, you're doing it again.

Nancy: (laughing) Yeah. It is insidious.

Shannon: it's just how I operate. Problem. And I'm going to fix it. I don't know all the different ways that it can be fixed and go until it's fixed. And that you can't fix yourself because you're always healing and working and journeying. So there wasn't a destination.

Nancy: How do you catch it? Because worthiness and achievement. Are so linked in our brains. Yeah. How did you start pulling that apart?

Shannon: And I would say I'm sure I still fall into those types of habits. There is no fix, but one of the things that I did was my therapist and my life coach have the red flags to watch out for, from me.

So like I gave my support network kind of the, veto card of what if they start seeing certain habits or me starting to say certain things, they know that now it's tap the brakes. And you are not operating from the place that you want to be operating from. And that was really essential for me, especially when I decided to have a second baby that I was like, I need people around me that aren't going to be afraid to challenge me that I've given permission to challenge me. If they start seeing me go down this path,

Nancy: Was that hard for you to ask for that?

Shannon: No, because I was in such a deep despair that it was very aware that there was no other option.

Nancy: Okay. Because that is the key, the support team and, giving them permission to call you out and be like, wow, this is one of your red flags.

Shannon: yeah. And I would say for me, it was essential that those people were outside of my circle. If that makes sense it can't be my husband's trying to be like, you are doing too much.

I'll be like, screw you. Yeah, I'm fine. Or even like my best friends I want, those people to be support, but they can't be the bad guys. And I use that word loosely because it's not being a bad guy, but the truth tellers, let my friends tell me what I need to hear.

Let my external support, tell me what I really need to hear.

Nancy: So who are your truth tellers?

Shannon: My, my therapist who is absolutely amazing. My life coach who's actually now my friend, but we have a different kind of friend relationship obviously founded in this fact. And those are really the two and they, and I have two because they both have very different approaches to things too.

So I feel like if they're both saying this is a flag, then that is serious.

Nancy: Since your spiritual awakening as Brené Brown says, have you had another flare up since the first ?

Shannon: Not, not nearly, what would have gotten me to that place. I think I learned my lesson so hard there that I'll be surprised if I ever go there. I'll catch the workaholic tendencies of, like getting excited about something and wanting to like only focus on that and work on that.

That's never gonna go away, but definitely. Before I can pile it on too heavy. I have the awareness and space to see am I just piling things on because I like the energy of being busy or are these really things that I need to be doing?

Nancy: What are some of your signs, if you, would you be willing to share them?

Shannon: Sure. Mind racing is a big one. Like I can see, like when I'm working on too many things like this, the ping ponging of ideas in my head going all the time. If I wake up with a ton of energy, that's a flag. Because I'm not really a morning person. So if I'm waking up to a normal day, I'll be groggy.

If I like jump out of bed, then that's like a sign. Yeah. Too much is going on

Nancy: So that pattern is addicting.

Shannon: Like it feels good, right? It feels good To wake up with energy in the morning. It feels amazing Yes.

Nancy: I think that fact combined with the fact that slowing down and taking care of ourselves, we've believe is something we have to earn.

I have to work hard enough to earn the break, to earn taking a break. I have to deserve it. I hear that a lot from my clients.

Shannon: I don’t think I have that one. I think I always had been, I feel like if I want to take a break, I can. But the problem for me is when I have a lot of space, like even like good space, it feels like something's missing.

It's that feeling of I must be forgetting something because normally things are so chaotic and I'm bouncing around and I'm like pulled to my capacity that when I actually have space, it's like, What's wrong? And you almost want to, create a problem to put in that space. Yeah. But yeah, I've never felt like I needed to earn rest, but I do sometimes feel like I have to defend it because other people believe that.

Other people believe I work more hours than you do. So why should you? I have to make dinner. And not you, even though it's my night to make dinner. I don't know if this is specific enough of an example of what's going on in my household. Sometimes if it's Wednesday, I'm not making dinner.

And I'm okay. And I think. I have been, I've been working on myself long enough to know like that's other people's stuff, not mine. And so it, it does help me like stay centered in no. And also again I think my burnout and breakdown was so bad that I recognize it's not just better for me.

It's better for everyone. If I can keep this going, it really is because otherwise I'm jumping into traffic and that's not good for anybody. You can make dinner Wednesday night.

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's awesome. Just because I've had clients say to me, I know if I get up and journal and take time in the morning, I feel better, but yeah.

Encouraging themselves to do that, especially if they wake up with the, I have a ton of energy. Yeah. Then you really can't write, then that's not happening.

Shannon: Yeah. And it feels so good. You're like, I don't need to journal. I feel amazing. And then by 11, you're like a zombie, you used up all your energy for that.

Nancy: Exactly. And so it's really, you're able to slow down. Regularly, slow down.

Shannon: I am, but it's not always comfortable. I would say like a lot of times still this part, this far into my journey, it's still uncomfortable sometimes. Like I want to be go, because that feels energizing, but I really know it's not going to be good on that end.

Nancy: Okay. So something that I loved that you talked about was how the striving takes away our creativity. And that's also something that Brene´ Brown talks about

Shannon: because we're basically the same person. (laughing)

Nancy: Tell me more about that.

Shannon: Yeah. I would say like when I'm in strive mode, I'm just like checking things off. I'm just like getting it done. Like I'm very decisive again. Could be good. Could be bad. And so I'm just doing without the space to really like, explore all the options and explore what's interesting about things.

So I think when I slowed down, not just like in a creative Ooh, and then I paint tonight. So creative, like I'm not creative in that way, but I'm definitely able to even just look at problems in situations with different approach. When I have more space, I used to like when I would get like stuck on something, I would think, I just need to like plow through just get it done.

And I would have this message in my mind. Just done is better than perfect and just get through it. And like sometimes that's needed, but most of the time it's the opposite for me of if I'm stuck on something, I need to take space from it. And the more space I can give myself the easier it is to find like the creativity to get through whatever it is.

That's my personal expense. Of, the forcing things through versus letting things.

Nancy: And I love that it's isn't because sometimes I think, Brene´ Brown's message is more about doing creativity. And I think that could be a block to some people.

So I like how you're saying it's expansiveness, it's looking at the ideas. In a bigger way, not just the minutia of the to-do list and check check, check.

Shannon: Which again, feels good. I love a check mark.

But yeah, I'll use like a good, like a tangible exam. I put together a program for our conference, rebel con, and we've picked speakers from all over the country and there's like kind of a format, but like within that format, there's a lot of space for creativity and thinking about the flow of who comes before, who and what types of conversations are important there.

And I had no, my process with that. Every time I try to do it. And there's like this fear of if I don't like, get this done right now, like I'm gonna miss the speakers that I want. Like people are gonna get booked up. And I've all these stories about what I need to just get it done really fast.

But every single time I'm like, Nope, like when I'm not sure, like who I want in this program, I just need to sit back and give myself some space and stop hustling through it because. I will find where those holes need to be filled and they will get filled. And I can say that, because now we're doing it for the sixth time.

So I have like proof that it actually does happen. It is coming regardless. Like somebody's going to be up there to talk like

Nancy: yeah. And I think I know for me, every time I practice that of slowing down and pulling back and stopping the hustle, it's the result is better.

Shannon: I always get the best ideas on vacation.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. But it isn't a logical

Shannon: So why is it so hard to take vacation? ,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It's so true.

Okay. So one of the areas you found that was a key was support.. And that we as women don't think about that intentionally, which I loved, because we don't think about that intentionally. Tell me about how you got to that.

Shannon: This is my soul work right now, which sounds more weird than it is. But so when I started rebel con I knew the project was bigger than I could do it myself. So the first thing I did was I wanted to find cool people to work. And so in doing that, what I didn't realize I was doing is creating this circle of friends.

And I didn't realize that I didn't have friends. And it was so weird because I know tons of people and I could always have someone to invite over for something like I go to coffee dates with people every single day but I didn't realize that I didn't have real adult friends.

And I'm still connected with people from my past, but not in the come over right now, type of friend. And so once I had that, I was like, holy cannoli. People don't have this, which is proof from how quickly I was able to assemble this group of friends, because nobody has friends.

It was just so weird because then as soon as this group forms, like chaos started just happening in everybody's life. And it wasn't that because we were friends, chaos was happening, it was. Chaos was happening. And we had the support of friends, all it just came together at the same time.

So like a friend was getting divorced and then the other was breaking up with her boyfriend and I had to quit a job. And this one's dad got cancer and it's just the normal things that happen in life all the time. But all of the sudden we had this circle of support for one another that I just happened to like accidentally have at this point in my life.

Was great for me, obviously it would have been really great to have this circle when I had my breakdown, but whatever, I'm more grown up person now, I'm probably a better friend now than I would have been because I wouldn't have been available because I'd been working and visiting and not wanting to show up for my friends.

So that was my own personal aha moment of oh my God. People were my friends. And I think that supports me in a way that it's almost like crazy to think it never happened. It's not that I need them every day or even talk to them every day. But it's this feeling of, if something goes terribly wrong, I had six different people that I could potentially call.

For whatever and that's just a feeling that I don't think you realize you don't have until you have. And I think, I have like my mom, who's a couple of hours away that if it's really bad, I can call my mom. I have my mother-in-law like, I have other support in my life.

My therapist, my life coach. I have people to talk to, again, not the same as the person. That's going to drop everything and deliver pizza to your house because she knows you're really stressed and your kids need to eat. That's just a different. Yeah, it's just a different situation. And I live in the city, like I'm not friends with my neighbors.

Like we're not like in a cul-de-sac where everybody's kids play together and everybody knows each other, which I feel like is also really common. Like people move away from their family. People don't have the structural support that we had when everyone belonged to a faith organization. There's just this missing piece of support.

And it affects women. I think more than men because women. One are doing way more work, not to make this feminist thing, but they are not more work both like in labor and in emotional work. And so when you're doing so much emotional work, you need support. Emotionally. And that's like my soapbox story, but I really believe it with my whole heart.

And I think what I have hoped that I can do with my organization. I know I can't create these relationships for people. And I think, apps like Bumble and like other places where you can meet people, I think are great, but I think. You have to meet a lot of people until you find your people.

And that's hard to do as a grownup, especially as a workaholic grownup. Because you don't get time to meet people because you got work to do

So that's, what I, my like super strong feeling about support. I think there is this message that we can all do it alone. We can all do it by ourselves. That our strength is in how much we can carry by ourselves. But everybody knows, if you have more people carrying, you're going to carry multiple, like it's multiples how much you can do.

And also that's a very productive way of looking at the world, right? Like sometimes I just need someone to cry with. And I'd like to be able to pick who that is. And now that I have multiple friends that have one I could pick.

Nancy: Right Yeah.

Shannon: What a gift! Absolutely. Or I can call all of them and make them all listen to me cry, which would be fine.

Or I can just put a crying emoji in the group chat and then have my text messages blow up for a day, which also feels really nice.

Nancy: I see these women you found were all built around.

Shannon: This event I found them by accident, right? It is how it happens.

And so again, that's what, why, we've created rebel. The conference is one thing that we produced, but we also have a community which we have events every month and they're literally, that's who they attract. They attract women that are just looking for connection. They want to be able to talk to someone about something different than just the work.

Or just the role they play in their family. And that's one of our goals is just to create another space for people to find each other.

Nancy: My husband or I belong to a book club

We’ll do a couples thing and the women are like my mom's age, but my husband and I will both say it's so awesome to go there and talk about. Just life, not about our day-to-day life or about, our jobs are about like, they just want to hear about life. Like it's just such a different conversation than.

The ins and outs of every day. And it's just such a different level of support.

Shannon: Yeah, I know. I feel like you get lucky when you find it and you should seek it somehow in whatever way, because it is so valuable. I have two young kids, but I don't want to have a group of moms because that's what moms want to talk about.

Not all moms, but like some moms. And the only thing you have in common with other people is that you have kids, you ended up talking about kids and the same thing, as far as your work the only thing you, if the only thing you have in common is your work with these people. You're going to talk about work, but when you don't have work or family in common with people, you talk about it.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And it is a thing. I think that people want a formula for. How do I find people? Same thing with when, if you're dating, like how do I find, I looked really hard for my husband. (laughing)

One of the pushbacks I always get Is, my clients will be like I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to go to these events. What is your thoughts on that?

Shannon: It's funny. I'm an introvert, but I'm not, afraid to be around people introvert. I'm the, when I'm around people, I need time by myself introvert.

So it's almost hard for me to know if I was like afraid to talk to people, like how would I meet people? But, we have people that are afraid to talk to people that come to our events all the time and they just don't talk to anybody until someone talks to them, which again probably is scary for them.

But I don't know. Sometimes you just have to, you got to do it. It's if I want to really want to meet someone, but I don't like going on dates. It's wow. And I gotta do it then. No, like after you, so for me, like after we have an event, I know that night it's gonna be hard for me to fall asleep because I get like wound up from the energy of a lot of people in extroverted and so I just know, like on those nights, like I'm gonna have to be up later.

So then the next day I need to like, make sure my schedule, I can sleep in later and I come home and I watch dumb Netflix and I eat ramen noodles. And that's like how I like contain this extroverted that I had to do. And knowing what I need to do on the backend to recover from it. I love that.

I mean is not self care, but it is for me. Yeah.

Nancy: That's intentionality, I mean like you, because you have pulled back on your life and you're not just click through everything. You're able to say, okay, I love doing this gathering and it's draining. How can I do, how can I care there?

Yeah, that's good. That's awesome. So what's your, I want to hear also the idea. Did you struggle with support equals weakness? Initially,

Shannon: No, actually I think my problem is I struggle with a huge ego and that I can do everything better than everybody else. And so that's a problem. And I still struggle with that sometimes, but I.

I know, a lot of people do think if I am asking for help, that means something's wrong. I think I did sometimes. I feel like I'm imposing on people by asking. And I come across that a lot when I talk to people about asking for help. Because that's my biggest thing is if you are struggling, ask for help and I recognize it's really hard, but if you ask someone and they say, no that's fine.

I think there's like this fear of I don't want to ask someone that they might say no, and. I think a lot of that is from, I feel bad if I have to say no when someone asks me for help. So I don't want to make someone else feel bad that they have to say no to me. And it's funny because, so I always use my sister-in-law as an example, my sister.

Is amazing, but she's like very, what's the word almost like Bohemian in that she's just like in and out. And sometimes she's really in, and sometimes she's really out and she just you can't nail her down. She's like a nomad lives wherever, like just one of these people. But she moved to Richmond, which is where I live when my second baby was born and was at my house every single day and awesome.

But if I ask her for something, it's like a note. Oh, it's so funny. And she's great at boundaries. Like I'm telling you if I, if like Oprah Winfrey was like, Shannon, come to lunch right now. And I was like, Hey Jess, I know you're just here hanging out. Can you just keep the baby while I run to Oprah's house?

She'd be like, no, I gotta go. And I'm like, all right, like that's just how she is. And I think it's great because it doesn't mean she's not helpful. It just, she's helpful to me in the way that she wants to help me. And I know this is about her. This is our understanding. It is what it is.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It doesn't hurt her feelings. Let it just be what it is. But we have this fear of also if I ask this person. Then, if they ask me, I have to say yes. Also not true. You can say no. And I think that's a harder one to do in practice. People can understand it emotionally and mentally, but it's hard to practice.

Nancy: Because I think we get stuck in that keeping score. Yeah.

Shannon: Yeah. And that's not real friendship and that's not real support. Obviously if you. To reciprocate in some way that may be received well, and the gratitude is appreciated, but it shouldn't feel like I'm doing this for you because I might need something from you.

That's not a good relationship on either side. Yeah.

Nancy: Because I actually thought you were gonna say it and I'm glad you didn't. I thought you were going to say, if someone says no, if you ask someone for help and they say no, then they're showing you who they are. Because a common theme in the self-help industry is then they're showing you the type of person they're.

Shannon: no, I get it may not mean no in the future may just me. No this second for exactly what you're asking me for right now, that doesn't mean you can never ask me for anything ever again. I would hope that you don't have friends like that.

Nancy:

Exactly. Like it isn't that It isn't that cut and dry because you talk about this in a Facebook live that you did. I think it was a couple of years ago about how you were learning, how to set boundaries and you had that the fear of missing out by saying no or hurting someone's feelings and that's a huge one for people.

Shannon: Yeah. And I'll say I still have fear of missing out. I don't think I'll ever get over that. I just like to be involved in stuff. And when people are doing cool stuff without me, I just feel left out. And that's my like, teenager self, just it's never going to get better. Maybe it'll get better, but it's not going to be great.

But I also realize now I don't die. It's fine. If I miss something, there will be something else. Yeah, but the fear of hurting people's feelings like this one, actually, I feel like I've been working on a lot lately. I do want people to like me, like that's the feeling that I have as a human being, but I recognize through lots of therapy.

I am a good person. I do want the best for people. I never would you anything, they would intentionally hurt someone. So if I do hurt someone's feelings, it's not because I want their feelings to be hurt. It's because I did something that I didn't realize what hurt their feelings. And so knowing that about myself makes it that much easier to say no, and know, I might hurt someone's feelings because that's not my area.

My intention is not say no to your feelings. My intention is to say no, because I just can't and, or I don't want to. And those are different things. And I think before therapy and before realizing all the stuff about myself, I thought I was not a good, and the only real way to be a good person is to do good things for other people or do things that make people like me or feel appreciated, or, I thought I had to work too.

Yeah. And now I realize no, I'm good. I'm really confident in my morality. And so if there's negative things that happen because of me, it's not intended. And that is what it is.

Nancy: Oh, I love that.

That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's brilliant. Because the other thing also, I'll often tell to clients is you can say no to someone and they can get upset.

That's fine. And you don't have to change your response. And they're not bad people because they got upset. You're not a bad person. Because you said no, we're all just having feelings around here and that's okay.

Okay. So I'm fascinated to hear more about everything you're doing with rebel con and cool. And the communities.

Shannon: So we started the conference in 2017 and we did a couple of events and then people were like, these events are so awesome. Like we want to connect in between. And that was really the catalyst for the community. So we've only been about a year doing the community chapters. So we've got one enrichment, one in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, one in Maryland in between Baltimore and DC.

And then we just signed on a leader in Philadelphia. You heard it here first.. So that's exciting. And basically the idea was we just want to get these people in a room together again, but everyone's so different and everyone's interested in different things.

Like what do we do with them when they're here? And so we just started putting together programming. That was just the kind of programming that we as a team. Wanting to hear. And so instead of it being like a traditional networking group that you're going with the intention of making a connection for some sort of business purpose we wanted it to be, make some sort of connection for a personal purpose.

Okay. And so our content does like balanced between the professional and personal development, but. We will tell you this as professional development and we'll trick you and then you'll come and then really you'll make friends. But it's not, we're not like shady about it. Obviously I say this on podcasts.

I'm going to trick you with this LinkedIn workshop and you're going to leave with a buddy. So I'll put that in the description. I don't care. But yeah. We have panels. We do workshops and then we've just added some new event formats, like member meetups, just more intimate places that people can connect and meet each other.

And the topics that we pick are what I find so fun. We, our most recent panel here in Richmond was titled the breadwinners. And so it was for women that work in very different industries and different roles, but they are all the primary earner in their household. And so talking about what does that mean?

And like, how do they manage their home finances and who does, what in the house? And, what does that do for their relationship? And do they have kids or don't they, and how does that affect things? And just, I think the kinds of questions that you always want to ask people, but it's like rude to ask them but I would, I'm like dying to know do you have joint bank accounts?

Do you have separate bank accounts? Do you give your husband an allowance? Like how does this work. And so we have those kinds of conversations. Other topics that we've done that were like really well received, we had the quitters, so it was women that had quit different things in their life.

So one was like a job, a business, a marriage listening to their mother, like from the like Pratt, like tangible thing to a bad habit. And that was really fun. And then we do also do like industry based ones. We'll have one coming up, that's women in education. And you don't have to also work in education to attend, but if you're interested in, these people that have this job, that's like totally different from anything that you do, which I am fascinated that people have jobs that are different than mine.

It gives you a behind the scenes view. So it's like, what do they do? And what do they see happening? And. What does the world look like through their perspective? So yeah, so that is what we do. We bring women together to talk about whatever they want to talk about. In different formats, because like you were talking about introverts are different people connect in different ways.

Like some people love to just go here and talk, because then they don't actually have to talk to anybody and they can just be in the room and get the energy. Some people do want to connect, but they don't want to connect when there's 50 people in the room. They'd rather do that. So giving people different and some people like a workshop, because then you're there for a purpose and you're doing something.

So then the connection just was accidental, but you're like learning a skill. And sometimes people don't feel good about investing in like having more friends and like being more fulfilled person, but they will invest in a. Like they said LinkedIn, which is what it, that don't get me wrong. That LinkedIn works.

I was like one of the best workshops I ever went to. And I learned so much, but I learned about LinkedIn. And then I also learned about making connections. So we're still going to trick you. Oh, one of my other favorite events that we did that I think is so fun that we have this woman, she used to work at the Pentagon and she does like a brainstorming strategy technique that she can use with anybody.

And so she came to show us the brainstorming strategy technique, but she was like you have to have a problem that you're trying to solve. And I was like, our problems. How to make friends. And so then as a group, we like learned this technique that you could take back to like work on whatever problem solving you have.

But then also we like brainstorm on like how to make friends and then people left and went to happy hour after.

Nancy: So what about the. Those are the communities.

Shannon: Those are the community events. So the conference, our four themes of program, our wellness money, community creativity. And we picked those four themes because at the time was like right after I came out of my burnout.

And I'm like, if I can get these four things. Solid in my life, then I feel like I have a better chance of getting things back on track. So like wellness first, because you know this, I know this, but it's so hard to remember if you don't take care of yourself, like none of the rest of them matters, like walking down the street, waiting for a card at you.

It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank. Wellness then money because money is important and it matters. And women don't talk about it enough. And so opening up the conversation about it, not necessarily like here's what you should do with your money, but like how we can engage with it in a more intentional way.

Community, because of all of these things that I talk about of how important support is, and having other people that care about you and you caring about them. So important. And then creativity, because there has to be some sort of outlet and right, like I said, I'm not a creative person and that I'm not a painter or whatever, but my version of creativity is different than other people's are.

And. Spreadsheets and like strategy and strategy is absolutely a creative pursuit. And so I think, debunking the, what is creativity really? And how can you be intentional about your creativity, whatever that means for you. That's give those are the four. So those are the four things we talk about and we try to bring people that have an interesting perspective to share.

I am not a big fan of experts. Because I'm like, you don't know me know my life. So I'd rather not have an expert on the stage. Tell me what I should be doing. I'd rather have someone share their experience and what they know about that, what they've learned from that experience versus tell me what to do.

That is the person. And it's really fun and it's most of what we get back, definitely people make comments about the speakers that they are inspired and, discovered someone new that they hadn't heard about and learned interesting things. But most of the feedback is they're just jazz to have been in a room of people that they feel like whether they're strangers or not.

Everyone in that room genuinely wants each other to be successful. And it is, I forget because I literally built that room. And so I live in it all the time, but that's not the room that most people live in. And so that's really, to me, if I get that feedback, that's how I know the event was a success.

So even just for one day, if you could hang out. Everyone wants you to be your best. You like that's worth the price of admission to me. So we do have

Nancy: food, man. That's important

Shannon: and snacks.

Nancy: Yeah. And this takes the conference is in

Shannon: Richmond, Virginia, this spring.

Nancy: Okay. And what's the website

Shannon: for that?

Rebel, R E B E L E con.com.

Nancy: Okay. And we'll also have that in the show notes in case people want to check that out. So I, the thing I love about your story is that you're willing to share it. That's awesome. And, but it wasn't a direct path and it still isn't, because I always am saying, I think for a long time I believed I needed to be an expert in order to do this, to do teach this work.

And I really got better at this work when I finally was like, I'm just doing this and it's a struggle. Every day. And I really try every day and I really try to be intentional. Yeah. That's the best we can ask. And just to witness other people struggles and that we're in this together. And how can we pull out of this?

I think that is that's, it's a gift that you're sharing it. So thank you for taking the time.

Shannon: Oh my gosh. Thank you for letting me and for sharing so many stories.

Nancy: Two things that I would take away. A, it's not easy. And B it's a choice. Like you really have to make the choice to not get sucked into the hop up, to recognize, I need to slow down to challenge myself, to get out of the house and meet new people too.

It's never going to be the great, the perfect time or the feel the best, or you're absolutely going to know for sure. This is the right step. It's always going to be a choice. That's a risk.

Shannon: Yeah. And sometimes it is too hard. And then you just need to wait until it's the next day. Because there's a lot of pressure there too, of like I just don't want to do it and I have to make myself and I'm thinking sometimes not

Nancy: Love that. Thank you for saying that too. Yeah. Because my big thing is it's, it's all about just being calm. To yourself. Like the more you can plow on that kindness, because a lot of people think it's about, I need to accept myself a hundred percent for who I am and I'm like, I can't do that.

I've really struggled to do that, but I can be kind, even before this interview, I was like super nervous. Yeah. And I was like, you're going to get nervous. That's what you do here. We know what we're doing. We got this. We're going to go in and just settling myself down enough to do that. Makes such a big difference.

Shannon: And being nervous as great. It's like Bruce Springsteen said that if he ever doesn't get nervous before a show, he knows he's going to retire. Because it's done. The magic is gone.

Nancy: It's true because you really are working at it. That shows your passions there and you want to do a good job and all that stuff.

And you're doing such great things.

Shannon: So I was a little nervous to, but thank you so much for taking the time to do this and sharing your story And check out Rebel.com and you might be meeting some new friends.

Before we go, I wanted to highlight something Shannon said, which was the power of recognizing your intentions are good. So often I hear from clients that their monger was attacking them for saying no, we're making a mistake and they try to talk down their monger and it just doesn't work.

It will never work to try to talk down your monger or rationalize with her. The only thing that works is strengthening the voice of the biggest fan, which is why I loved what Shannon said so much, because that is the voice of the biggest fan. Your biggest fan will remind you, Hey, you have good intentions.

You just cannot make it to the event you aren't being mean. You aren't being lazy. You're just prioritizing yourself, which is awesome. So often we fall in the trap of believing our monger. She says such terrible things about ourselves practice asking to hear from your biggest fan and reminding yourself at your core, you are a genuinely kind person and even genuinely kind people can't please everyone.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 118: The Joy of Missing Out With Tonya Dalton

In this episode, I chat with Tonya Dalton a productivity expert about her ideas for reducing stress and anxiety when it comes to our to-do list.

I have often fallen for the trap of thinking that a new system–a new calendar, a new journal, a new app–was all that I needed to keep me organized and bring order to the chaos. 

But all around me are piles of half-filled calendars, abandoned bullet journals, and long lost apps–the evidence of well-meaning systems that I started only to later abandon.

I know that it isn’t a flaw in the systems that’s the problem. It’s my own lack of commitment to these systems that is the problem. I know this truth, and yet I still struggle to live in that place. It is so much easier to just blame the freaking system.

In January we are inundated with the new year, new you message. It is a time when starting a new system for change is particularly alluring. And all this month we have been taking a different look at how change works. 

We’ve covered: setting New Year’s resolutions without succumbing to the hype, working through our challenges so that we can live a life that is true to our values, what Mr. Rogers can teach us about slowing down and being present, and how the concept of Spiraling Up can be applied to a life long of growth and change. 

I thought it would be nice to end the month on a conversation with Tonya.

Tonya Dalton is a productivity expert, author, speaker, and founder of inkWELL Press Productivity Co, a company centered around productivity tools and training. 

So, of course, when I started reading her book, The Joy of Missing Out, I was hopeful that Tonya could fix me with a shiny new system for finding joy in doing less. I soon realized that wasn't the case. 

Instead, Tonya gets it. She understands the struggle. She isn’t about some “all you have to do is follow my system and you will be cured” way of thinking. 

As you know, like most of my clients, my BS meter is pretty, and when I was reading Tonya’s book, it was like Tonya was reading my mind. Every objection I had, she had a way to make it approachable and doable. 

Listen in to see which ones I've added to my life, and at the end of the interview, I'll share how it's still going. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What Tonya has to say about our love with the to-do list and how to think about it differently.

• Why Tonya is so passionate about productivity.

• What she sometimes calls ‘million-dollar minutes’ and how it will help you think about your time differently.

• And how to work with resistance and the process of change

Research and resources mentioned:

• inkWELL Press

• The Joy of Missing Out

• Productivity Paradox Podcast

+ Read the Transcript

Tonya: Life happens and things shift and things change. And so you have to allow for that ebb and flow of life. And I know that can be a challenge if you are dealing with a lot of anxiety and you want to do the same thing every single day.

Nancy: So often when a client gets overwhelmed, they say to me, I think I just need a new system, a new calendar, a new app, something that will keep me more organized.

Oh my gosh, can I relate to that idea! I have lost many afternoons. Looking for a new system. I have piles of half-filled calendars and long lost applications. It isn't about the system. It is about your commitment to doing the system. I know that truth, and yet I struggle to live in that place. It's so much easier to blame the freaking system, which is why I was so intrigued to chat with Tonya Dalton about her book, the joy of missing out.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, we have been taking a different look at how change works. January is a time when we're inundated with new year, new you a fresh start, change everything about you, and then you'll be happy messages.

I thought it would be nice to end the month with a conversation with Tonya Dalton. Tonya is a productivity expert and she runs the business inkwell press. So of course, when I started reading her book, The Joy of Missing Out, I was hopeful that Tonya could fix me with a shiny new system for finding joy in doing.

But I soon realized that wasn't the case. Instead, Tonya gets it. She understands the struggle. This isn't some, all you have to do is follow my system and you'll be cured. As my BS meter is pretty high as is most of my clients. And it was like, Tonya was reading my mind. Every objection I had, she had a way to make it approachable and doable.

I have implemented some of Tonya's tips and I am still doing them almost three weeks later, which is freaking huge for me. Listen in to see which ones I've added to my life. And at the end of the interview, I'll share how it's still going. Tonya. And I talk about our love with the to-do list and how to think about it differently, why she is so passionate about productivity, something she calls million-dollar minutes and how it will help you think about your time differently and the process of change and working with resistance.

I absolutely love this interview with Tonya, and I know you will too. I'm excited to talk to Tonya from inkwell press. Who's written this amazing book called The Joy of Missing Out, which all of us could could embrace a little bit, some joy of missing out.

I know how you, you said you wrote this book because it's been in you for years and you were willing to get up at four 30 in the morning to write it.

Tell me, why did you write this book?

Tonya: I really wrote it. I feel like it's almost like my love letter to women to say it's okay, where you are. You have absolute permission to be who you are and to live the life you want, but stop acting like you don't have the choices. You actually have the ability to choose the life you want. And here's a roadmap in order to really make that happen. Because I think so often we hear this whole rah, rah, you can do it, you can do everything, you can do all this. And it's hold on a minute. First of all, we don't want to do everything. We're going to wear ourselves out.

But then if there are things that we really want to do, how do we actually make that work? Because we still have to pay the bills. We still have to mow the grass. We still have to do the laundry. How do we actually. Create that life for ourselves. It sounds fabulous. But I felt like I read a lot of books that were like, oh, we need to stop being busy and we need to, and that's obviously one of the things I truly believe in, and we lean into that message in the book, but how in the world do you make that happen?

And that's what I wanted to write for women is how do you actually make that life achievable for you?

Nancy: Yeah, that's what I loved about the book is that I agree there are so many books out there telling us what we need to be doing and my question is constantly, but how, and so you really walk through the, but how of it, and I have implemented some of your tips and it really has made a big difference.

Tonya: I love hearing that, that makes me happy.

Nancy: And so it is just an I had a client recently say to me something like I'm finally going to stop resisting all the stuff you're suggesting for me and actually do it. And I think that's what I'm finding for me is like the daily downloads that you talk about, that's something I've started implementing and I love that concept.

But at some point you have to sit down and be willing to do the daily download. Like it's not just magically going to happen

Tonya: I think that is the thing, , we dream of this life and we're like, oh, I want this. But it takes effort to make it happen. We talk about those three resources that we all have of time, energy, and focus.

So to really affect a change in our lives. We have to apply time, energy, and focus to make that happen. So I love that you're doing the daily download because I think that is truly one of the best ways to end your day and to set up tomorrow for success. It really does build momentum. But that whole idea of, people get caught up in this thought of oh, one more thing to do.

And it doesn't need to be one more thing to do. If it feels like one more thing to do, then don't do it right. Do things that are fulfilling. We want to do things that build that momentum that make us feel good. I think we under value that feeling of satisfaction. When we slip into bed at night, when we our head hits the pillow and we think, you know what, today was a good day, right?

So less things in our day that drive us to that end point. Let's do things that allow oh us to end our days feeling satisfied, because that is something that far too many women don't get in their days. So what the daily download, it really is this idea of celebrating your wins. Really reflecting where you're spending your time, how you're feeling throughout your day, how you're spending your gratitude.

And I walk all through this, through in the book, one of the things that we talk about in the book also is this idea of habits and really establishing these types of routines that happen on a regular basis. One of the first things we talk about with habits is you need to articulate the habit.

What is the habit you want to create? And why do you want to do it? I think so often we set up these routines for ourselves, or we set up these habits or we set up these rituals that we think we are supposed to do that we should do. Oh, I should be journaling. This person tells me I should be journaling.

This person tells me I should be doing this. I should be working out in the morning. We are shoulding all over ourselves.

Here's the thing, figuring out your why do you want to do this? So with the daily download the why there is that it really does allow you to end your day feeling successful. And it sets up tomorrow for success. So if that why is enough that it makes you feel good, you're going to want to do it again.

And really it's such an integral part of my routine because I do it, but I do mine before I leave my office and then I leave it out. So I can use that as my springboard for planning the next day. So when I sit down in the morning and I'm planning out, where am I spending my time today? I'm looking at that.

So first of all, celebrate the wins from yesterday. So that starts my day. Let's say you wake up in the morning and you stub your toe the water in the shower's not hot, you're starting your day, not feeling great. You get in and you're ready to start your planning.

And you're like, oh, you know what? This is a chance for me to reset yesterday was a good day. I'm starting today with some wins. Really it is this idea. Let's do things that feel good. Let's do things that drive us to that life. We really want not the life we think we're supposed to want, not the life that our mother wants for us or a mother-in-law or a boss or whoever else.

What's the life that you are wanting. And what are the things that will make you get closer to that life on a daily basis? We think it's these giant leaps we have to make. It's a small, incremental step. That's what gets us to that ideal life.

Nancy: Yeah. Because that's what I like about the daily download there's a lot of things I like about it.

And, but what I really like about it is I tend to, and I know a lot of my clients tend move so quickly through what we've done. And so we're just constantly on to the next thing. And so I like that the daily download forces me to sit down and be like, these are the things you did today.

Because a lot of times I'll be like, oh, I didn't, I hit two out of the three things. So I'm a loser because I didn't hit all three. And the daily download, I was like, oh, but this is all the stuff you did instead of hitting that third thing that we're winning. And so having that reflection has been really helpful.

Tonya: I love hearing that for you because I think it's so true. So quick to think about the things that we didn't do well, and we forget altogether all the things that we did that were good in the day. And so just taking one minute to stop and really think about what did I do for me. And I talk about this a little bit in the book, When people would say to you oh, what did you do today?

And then you're like, I have no idea what I do. Nothing makes you feel more like a failure then. I don't know what, I don't think I did anything today. So taking a minute to celebrate those accomplishments. To actually pat yourself on the back and say, all right, good work today because you did this, and that, and it doesn't have to be giant things.

It can be little things. It can be, not forgetting to call your mom today to check in on her or, making the kids a healthy lunch today. All of those things are things we're celebrating. They're all things that you're doing, but we tend to just slip them to the side because, ah, this is just what I'm supposed to do, or this is just how life works and let's stop and let's actively celebrate and reflect on it.

Nancy: .Yeah, totally. Yes, because even like yesterday I ran to the grocery store which is something I hate doing and I hate it because it pulls me away from work and it feels like a waste of time. But then in doing the daily download, I was like, Food. Yeah. Yeah. And I found it a good time and to do it, that fit in my schedule.

So it wasn't a waste, also, the other part, and obviously I love the daily downloads because we've spent so much time on them. But the other part is because a lot of what I talk about with my clients is being kind to themselves. And that's what I liked when you have the idea of then reflecting on the day, what worked, what didn't work.

And the idea that you start each day planning each day. I have never heard that before, too, which made so much sense to me. The idea of. What how does this day feel and everything I've heard is go for the whole week.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the messages we get are about the hustle or they like hustle.

Yeah. Ask anybody how they're doing. They usually answer what the word busy. Which is not an emotion. It's really just, a badge of honors showing them. That they think that they must be doing something if they're busy. And so I really think that's one of the things that's important to eliminate and do away with.

Is this feeling that we are supposed to be busy. Going to the grocery store, like you said, that is a win because you need to eat. But we undervalue. Even though the essential need right there. That's a basic, that's like the bottom of Maslow's pyramid that we absolutely need to be able to eat.

Nancy: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. That's a good point. Okay. So I want to back up a little bit, because I jumped right in to the middle of the book. But I want to, I want my listeners to hear your definition of overwhelmed, because I just loved that.

Tonya: Yeah. Because I do feel like this was the thing is, in talking with women in all different walks of life and all different areas, doing all different kinds of jobs.

I would say to them, how are you feeling about your job or how are you feeling about work or how are you feeling about your business or how you feeling about your home life? And they would answer, oh my God, I'm so overwhelmed. And I think that's true.

We live in this constant state of overwhelm. We're overwhelmed by everything we have to do or overwhelmed by our own to-do lists. We're overwhelmed by all the responsibilities that we feel obligated to take on. And I like to tell people overwhelm isn't having too much to do. It's not knowing where to start.

And I think when you know where to start, you feel so much more competent oh, okay, this is where I'm going to start. And when you create a day and you add a little bit of structure to it, it allows you to know where you're going to start and where you're going to go next.

And there's a lot of empowerment in that idea of knowing where you're going to start knowing what you're going to do next, because there's so many things floating around in our head. In our crazy long to do lists, and we don't know where to start.

So we start with what's easiest or what's going to give us the quickest check mark on our to-do list. And so if we stop and we really figure out, okay, where do I start? What's going to drive me forward in a way that makes me feel successful. If we start there, the overwhelmed just slips away and we stop feeling like we're harried and anxious and worried about what we should be doing.

And instead we're taking action

Nancy: Yeah, I loved your example of the returning the shirt to target and how we would mark that as an urgent task, I think is what we I forgot.

Tonya: Yeah, exactly. Mark it as an escalated task because we think urgent and it's important while it is urgent, it does need to happen.

It's not necessarily important. And I think that's one of the big things that people lose sight of. We think anything and everything that is urgent is also important. And it's not the things that you think are really important aren’t. Things that are truly important are things that are connected to your north star, your mission, your vision, your core values, the things that you want to do to get to that life you want.

They're linked to your goals. They are things that are essential. They have to be done by you. And they're advantageous. They're really going to benefit you. They're an investment in your future. And when you think about something like returning a shirt to Target that doesn't really fit any of those bills.

It doesn't play any of that. And I know people will say yeah, but I'm on a budget. I get that. But you're going to spend, $5 with a gas to go return a 7 99 shirt, which then you're going to spend an hour at target and another hundred thousand. Because we all do it. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. This is the thing is I'm not saying you're not ever going to return the shirt to Target. I'm just saying let's not revolve our day around returning the shirt to Target. Let's do that at the end of our day. Let's first do the tasks that are truly important because that's when we slip into bed with that feeling of satisfaction, when we're doing fewer tasks.

That are important rather than doing many tasks that are unimportant. We get caught up in the numbers we get in that numbers game of how many things did I do instead of what did I do to really drive me toward that life I want. There's a big difference in that.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. Because when I first read that about the Target shirt, I was like, oh, that's a little, privileged.

Like I'm not going to return the shirt, but then you said like how much money are you spending to get there? And for a 7 99 shirt, which is true and there are a lot of other uses for that shirt and you would go to Target and spend more money.

Tonya: And truly one of the things I think about too is, in the book, we talk about that.

The woman that I spoke to, who's a CEO who says it's not my worth my time. I would just donate it. And like you said, you can look at that as privileged, or you can look at that as, putting forth some good into the world, because what I like to do with things like that is I like to think to myself about the woman who is working all day long, who's working really hard in her life and wants to provide for her family.

Who's going through that thrift store that I've donated to and who happens to find a brand new shirt from Target with the tag on it, that's affordable and in her price range. And I had just given that woman a big win for her day. Yes. For some good into the world, instead of thinking that makes me privileged.

Instead, I think I love that I'm able to do something to brighten someone else's day. I'll never see that woman. I won't get that brief high of her seeing the shirt and seeing her face light up. But I know it's there and that is what helps give me a little satisfaction in my day is I want to do things that impact the world in a positive way.

I want to do things that make a difference and little things like that add up. They make a difference.

Nancy: Absolutely. And when we are head down, checking off the to-do list. We're not doing that.. So let's talk about the to-do list because my clients are huge fans of that. You are not a big fan of the to-do list.

Tonya: . So when I tell people that you need to toss your to do list, it's like an audible gas. It's and I talk about this in the book. It's like the security blanket, right? It's like when Linus’, blanket is in the dryer and he doesn't know what to do.

But here's the thing your, to do list is taking you everywhere, but where you want to go, because it is too long. I can guarantee you right now. If your listeners pull out their to do list, they're going to see there's probably, 48 hours worth of tasks that they think they're going to get done.

And then. Yes, way too long. It's jumbled and unorganized and it's really chaotic. And as we talked about a few minutes ago, overwhelmed, isn't having too much to do. It's not knowing where to start a long to do list. Just confuses you more. So I like to tell people that instead of a, to do list, make a priority list.

Which is essentially a to-do list with intention. It takes the exact same amount of time to create as a to-do list, which you're very intentionally choosing what tasks I'm going to start my day with and what I'm going to end my day with. And so this is the thing it's that whole idea of, you could tackle 50 things if you wanted to, if you were standing in a spot and you took 50 steps, In 50 different directions where you're gonna end up maybe in the same spot, maybe further behind.

But if instead you choose to take five steps, five steps forward in that same direction, where are you going to end up closer to where you want to go? And that's what a priority list does is it shows you what are the first steps you want to take? What's the second step you want to say, what's that third step.

And it gets you closer to where you want to go. So essentially you're taking your to-do list and you're dividing it into three categories or three priority sections of escalate, cultivate and accommodate. And we start our day with escalate, which, we touched on a minute ago, which is those tasks that are important.

So they're driving you towards your goals. They're getting you closer to that ideal life. They're advantageous. They're an investment in you, but they also are urgent. So they're important, but they also have a looming deadline. They're screaming out at you wanting to be taken. So we start our day, taking care of those things.

And then the next part, the next section is our cultivate. So we take care of our escalate tasks. Then we take care of our cultivating tasks. And these are tasks that are also important, just like escalate. So they're driving you towards your goals. They're moving you forward towards that life. You want their advantageous.

But they're not urgent, so they don't have, a deadline. They're not going to be something that's screaming out at you, but this is the area where you're going to see huge leaps and bounds in your personal growth and your professional growth, because they are truly an area where you are cultivating, you are investing in yourself for the future.

So it might be things like, working on your budget for your health. It could be working on your marketing plan. If you own your own business, it could be, working on a project that's not due for three more weeks because that will elevate and you can be creative and all those things.

That's really where we want to spend the majority of our time with things that are important, but are not like screaming deadlines. So we want to spend more of our day there, but because of our to-do list, we take care of the urgent things first and those get pushed aside. So cultivate is that second category.

And then the third category. Is our accommodate. And these are things like returning that shirt to Target. So it is urgent needs to be done. It's not really important. It's not driving you closer to that life. You want. It's just something that is screaming out at you. It's basically 99% of what's in your email inbox right now.

They moment maybe dictate by email and things like that when really most of what's in there is junk or it's, not truly things that are important. So if we start our day at the top with escalates, and then we work on our cultivate tasks, and then we end our day with accommodate tasks or we kind of shoe horn, those accommodate tasks, wherever they can be accommodated in our day.

That means that we're doing most of the most of our day. We're spending our time on important things on things that drive us forward that give that feeling of happiness and satisfaction.

Nancy: That is something I really took away beause I know for me, I spend so much more time, not on those cultivate tasks.

Tonya: I think that's true

Nancy: Yeah. I'm checking off the urgent things, because those give me that hit a dopamine. The immediate, as you talk about that immediate sense of gratification and the cultivate tasks, don't.

Tonya: Cultivate tasks take a little bit longer because they are an investment and we don't get that immediate.

Ah, I felt good, but if set for yourself, let's say you have a project due in three weeks and for your cultivate, area for the, today, you spend 15 minutes working on that project and you say to yourself, I'm going to spend 15 minutes every day, this week doing that.

You're going to get that feeling of satisfaction. When, when you see that work, getting closer to being done and you're able to really truly do your very best work. I think this is a thing we do really get caught up in the numbers. We get caught up in the quantity when really it's quality that wins hands down.

Every single time we want a quality life. We want to create quality that we're putting forth into the world. Whether that's something for our job or time with our families, it really is quality that we should be focusing on.

Nancy: Yeah. And when I've gone and done the daily download. It's the cultivate tasks that I feel the best about.

And I wouldn't have recognized that had I not started the daily downloads, to be honest, because I always am after hunting the hit.

Tonya: We are we're searching for that dopamine hit because it feels good to cross things off your list. This is why people write down things after they've done it just to cross it off the list.

And let's be honest here. I think most people have done that at some point in their lives because it just feels so dang good to just cross that off and be like, yep. When really that means we're using our to-do list as a mood enhancer. We're not using it as a tool to drive us forward.

Nancy: Ah, yes, that's very well said. So that brings me to the idea of stories, because I think that is a big reason we don't do the cultivate tasks. Because the stories we tell ourselves. And they're so prolific. I mean this is a big bulk of my work with clients is on unhooking these stories, but the hardest part of them is catching.

The story. Because they're so familiar, they're so comfortable. We like, I call them like this warm, itchy sweater that we wear and we put it on and it's amazing. And then it starts to get itchy, but by the time it's itchy, we are well into the story So how do you catch the story?

Tonya: I love this question because we all have these stories that we tell ourselves about what what a good boss does or what a good manager does or what a good mom does or what a good friend does. And these stories dictate how we live our life.

And these stories are most often steeped in other people's values and other people's truths and not really realistic for yourself. They're so hard to live up to that. This is part of why we feel like a failure at the end of the day. Even though we were busy all day long. We feel like we didn't do enough because of these stories that we tell ourselves.

So I think one of the things that we can do to really catch those is as we're finding ourselves negative self-talking, which we do, we, oh, you're the worst. I can't believe you did X, Y, and Z, or you did this. What's wrong with you, right? We say these things in our heads. So ugly. We would never say them to our friends.

We would never say them to someone we didn't even like, but we think nothing hang them to ourselves. And so when you catch yourself negative self-talking and you will, because you'll recognize it. You'll be like, I want you to stop and ask yourself, why do I feel like I'm not doing well? Why do I feel what's making me say these things in my head?

And try to uncover and work backwards to what is the story that I am telling myself, if it's, that you didn't know. I don't know. Didn't get the ingredients for dinner that night. Is it that a good mom always has dinner on the table at 6:30 PM because that's not really realistic with the world that we live in, for your job. It's not realistic for the activities that you're doing with your family. It's not realistic for a thousand different things. So we need to go backwards and begin to realize whenever we're feeling this self-talk happening, this negative self-talk stop and ask yourself why. And it's not enough to ask yourself why one time you need to ask yourself why?

I like to say the fifth, why? That's really like a term that we use in operations getting to that fifth. Why you're not going to uncover the story with the first. Why do you feel this way? I'm a bad mom. Why? I'm a bad mom, because I didn't get, dinners the ingredients for them.

Why does that make you a bad mom? It makes me bad and you start working backwards and about during the fourth or fifth, why you're going to get to that story. So you have to peel back those layers of the onion. Ask yourself why again, just harness that inner three-year-old.

Who's always asking why. One more line one more way. And here's the beauty of it is once you can uncover the stories, they lose their power because we are the authors of our own journey. We are the ones who can rewrite our endings and we can rewrite our stories. And that's why it's so powerful and so important to stop and ask yourself why and ask why again and ask why again and let those stories come to life.

So you can realize this is not truly livable. I need to rewrite this story and I need to say something different to myself and then actively choose what you're going to say. Instead, a good mom does her best to get dinner on the table. A good mom tries to get dinner on the table, three times out of the week, that's more livable or more achievable.

Think about what's really gonna work for you and rewrite your stories because you absolutely positively have that ability and you have that strength inside of you. It's all about reframing how you look at it. It's all about shifting your mindset and you have a hundred percent ownership over your mindset and the stories that you tell yourself

Nancy: That fifth why is really a great that's just great.

Over the holiday, I was thinking about the new year and I wasn't real excited about. Resolutions and blah, blah, blah.. I wasn't doing the fifth. Why? Because I didn't know that existed, but I was just kept thinking about what's the story I tell myself around work.

What's the story? And I finally realized it's, I assume I'm always wrong. I'm always going to do it wrong. And so whether that's sending an email or doing this interview, or talking with a client I'm always assuming I'm going to do it wrong. And I was shocked that once I unhooked, once I got it, which took me a long time to get to the root, that was the story.

Once I got to the root. It has, that has shifted. Yeah. And I would not have believed it, that it would shift that quickly.

Tonya: It’s pretty amazing because it's so easy to combat because you can start looking backwards, reflecting and really start to see evidence that proves you wrong.

But you don't do, you don't do anything. Because then you're like this. I did that. I did this. And you actively argue back with yourself essentially and say, I'm not going to listen to this anymore because I know I've done these things. And then again, that ties in that whole idea of the daily download.

Nancy: I was just going to say that!

Tonya: That every day you say what your doing well, what you're doing. And I think there's so much value.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. One of the phrases I'll always say is, you're not eight years old because for me, I, because that assumption that I'm always wrong.

I always act like I'm eight years old. Like I entered the world like a little kid and everyone knows better than me but I had to get to the specifics of assuming I'm always wrong to really unhook it like that specifically. Because of the fifth why. It is the key.

Tonya: Yes, I absolutely agree. Bring it to light.

I think this is the thing is those things like the hide in the shadows and you bring them to light and they just shrink up as soon as you acknowledge them, as soon as you take away their power. They, they can't do anything to you anymore. And I think that's really important to remember, if you are dealing with anxiety, where does that come from and what's making you feel this way and really allowing those things to to lose their control over.

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. So I loved your idea of the routines. And when you were talking about getting up in the morning at 4:30 to write your book,

Tonya: crazy, right?

Nancy: Yes Because I was reading it and I was like, oh geez. Yeah, you get up and you have the meditation in bed and right when I'm like, oh geez, you were like, no, Bluebirds are not coming out of my computer the mice are not, magically singing. And I was like, okay, good. that made me think, she gets this is hard. And so a lot of the people that I deal with high functioning anxiety really have that all or nothing mentality.

And so when they set a routine, they need to do it every morning. It needs to be, they need to be loving it. They have all these, again, those stories. And you talk a lot about flexibility. So talk more about any suggestions on how to allow more flexibility. Because I loved how you really address that in the book, which was awesome.

Tonya: Yeah you're right. I use the word flexibility all the time because you know what? Life needs flexibility. It is life. Things happen and things shift and things change and sometimes emergencies pop up or sometimes you're just too dang, tired to get out of bed, so you have to allow for that ebb and flow of life.

And I know that can be a challenge. If you are dealing with a lot of anxiety and you want to do the same thing every single day. So there's a couple of things that you can really do to build in a little bit of that flexibility into your day. First of all, I really advocate having two versions of your routine of your morning routine and your evening routine.

Or any routine that you have into the Workday routine, whatever it is, your longer routine is like everything you really want to do. And it feels really good. Whether that's, enjoying your cup of coffee while, sitting on the porch or, maybe it's reading a book for 15 minutes or maybe it's journaling for 10 minutes, or maybe it's taking an extra long shower.

Whatever it is, it needs to fit you and what you want. There's no special formula. There's no special magic that everybody has to do. You do what works for you. So have a longer routine that really does nourish all of those bits. It's really important to also have a little dose of reality here that not every day is going to be made of sunshine and lollipops.

We need to make sure I'd have a shorter routine day that works for us as well. So it really does pull out the key components of your longer routine. Maybe on your longer routine day, you take a, like an eight minute shower and you journal for 15 minutes and you spend 10 minutes reading your copy.

Maybe your shorter routine is. You take a five minute shower and you journal for only five minutes or you don't journal at all. And instead you do the time with your coffee, really prioritize what's most important to you. Maybe your long routine takes an hour to do or an hour and a half we'll say.

And then your shorter routine. 30 45 minutes at the very most that allows a little bit of that flexibility that you're still doing your routine. You're still pulling some of the things that are truly important to you because this is what I love about morning routines. Let's put some things in our morning routine that make us feel good that really inspire us.

That could easily be, let's say you're a creative person that you want 10 minutes to just doodle and draw on, on a notepad. Build that into your morning routine. Maybe it is listening to a podcast episode or reading a devotional or whatever it is, build that in. That feels good to you.

It's all about customizing things that work for you. So have a longer routine and have a shorter routine. And then throughout the day, the other thing that you can really do to build in this flexibility is add buffers to your time. So let's say that you think a task is going to take you an hour to do build it into an hour and 15 minutes.

On your calendar and when you finish it in an hour, what you're gonna do is you're gonna take that 15 minutes and you're going to bank it up, either do something that you want with that time, or save that 15 minutes for later on at the end of the day and save up. I like to say you can save them up like little pennies, 15 minutes here, five minutes there.

So the end of the day you do something really nice for you. Build in a little bit of that flexibility when you're making your calendar. And I think that's why it's so important to me that you plan each day as it comes, you have to treat each day as a new gift, as a new opportunity, as a chance for you to do what it is you want to do.

And by planning out each day, you get that flexibility in your life today feels like a great day. I'm going to do more of these things. Or, you know what, today doesn't feel so good. It's not a good day. I'm going to do fewer tasks. That's okay. We don't have to do the same number of things every single day.

We don't do everything exactly the same every day. Let's do what really works for you and let's make your life really work for you. And I think this is why so often. People balk at the idea of routine. I think it's so structured and so rigid and there's no room in there and I'm like, no, let's make the structure like a building, buildings.

Are designed to withstand, earthquakes and things like that. They're designed to move and shift with the wind a little bit. We need a little bit of that in our lives. You can still have that structure. You can still have that framework, but give it a little bit of looseness. So it really fits you.

Nancy: Yeah. Love that idea of the two different routines. Because that really answers the question, that's a baby step for my listeners of breaking out of that rigidity. Yeah. And giving them a taste of flexibility without going the whole hog into do whatever you want.

Like it's an intentional kind of like in between.

Tonya: Thing is, you talked about the fact that I was getting up at 4:30 in the morning. I was really excited about writing. That was that's so fulfilling to me, like getting to write was like, oh, it feels so good for the kids.

Get up before the rat race of getting them out the door. Everything else, but I wasn't planning on doing the 4:30 routine every single day. I committed to doing it three times a week and I had a different routine for those other days during the week. And if I wanted to get up four days in the week and write then I did it, but if I didn't want to, that was okay too.

You have to give yourself permission to be used. And I think we forget that we have that ability to give ourselves that permission.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. Because that's, what I work a lot with my clients on is in is a lot of what you're talking about is building a self loyalty, building a loyalty with ourselves.

We would get up at 4:30 for our kids, for our spouse to help them accomplish their goals, but we wouldn't do it for ourselves.

Tonya: Yes. We ended up outside of ourselves and our own needs because, we give, and then we feel guilty. And we really need to make sure that we understand too, that when we take care of our wants and our needs, when we get ourselves to a place that feels healthy and good, we're able to give our very best version to everybody else.

So when you take care of yourself, you can then take care of everybody else. Everybody else can be taken care of because you have charged your batteries. You cannot shine your light on everyone else. If your batteries need recharging. And I think we have to remember that.

Nancy: Yeah. Because I love the idea of even on the how you work.

Because I thought you were going to say, oh, it's so on the light day that the shorter routine, you just get the kids out and take care of business, but you still, even on your short routine you do something for you. Journal or yeah. Yeah. Which is awesome, which brings me to the idea of million dollar minutes.

I loved that phrase. Tell me more about that.

Tonya: Really for me and I talk about this in my morning routine, I have this time it's about nine to 10. That I call my million dollar minutes with my husband where I'm already up. I'm, I'm working on writing my book. I go and I wake the kids up and then I slip back into bed with my husband.

And it seems crazy to get back into bed, started your day, and you've already gotten up and brush your teeth. When I get back into bed with him and I spend 10 minutes on my marriage with intention. So we lay in the bed, we laugh, we maybe talk. Sometimes we just sit there and snuggle together. But it's time for me to give him 100% of my attention and I call it million dollar minutes, because I know if that time was taken away tomorrow, I would happily pay a million dollars to get it back.

And I don't even have a million dollars. And I think there's these million dollar minutes throughout our day, when the your kid comes and sits next to you on the couch and wants to talk about their day at school. And they don't normally want to talk about their day at school, but they want to talk to you.

That's the time where you're like, you're going to miss that. And in the hairiness of our everyday lives and the rushing after our to-do list, we don't think we have time to stop. Put our phone down or in the other room turn and look our children in the eye and say, tell me more. That's a million dollar a minute because you know what, when your kids have grown and left the house, you're going to pine for that.

You're going to want for that. And you're going to, you're going to miss it. So let's actively create those spaces for ourselves. Let's think about what are the million dollar minutes in our day and let's grab hold of them and squeeze every last dime out of that million dollar minute.

Nancy: Yeah. And again, to keep going back to my favorite thing from your book, the daily download allows you to find those million dollar minutes, because you're reflecting on your day and can be like, oh, here was one and here was one and here was one. Yes. And then capitalize on those moving forward. So again, I, obviously I love that daily download because it. Really helps me be more intentional.

Tonya: Yes. And that's what I like to tell people. When they ask me what I do, I like to tell them, I teach people. I teach women about productivity. I like to say I'm redefining productivity for women, but really you come in the door and I go, Hey, listen. It's really about intentional living. It's really about being mindful.

It really is about, not managing our time, but instead savoring the moments let's choose to be an active participant in our everyday lives. And let's find the joy. That's already there that we're missing because life is going so fast. Let's slow it down. Find the joy in our everyday lives.

That's the joy of missing out, right? Craziness, choosing to miss out on the long to-do list, choosing to miss out on the obligations that you said yes to you out of guilt instead of out of desire and want let's instead, choose to find the joy because there's already joy in your life. I can guarantee you, there are pockets of happiness hidden in your everyday life.

If you stop and take notice, you're going to enjoy life so much more.

Nancy: At the beginning of this conversation, I was going to, I think about when I thought about the planning each day, that is anxiety provoking for me because everyone tells me I should be planning the whole week.

And everyone tells me that I should be on top of things. And so planning each day sounds a little loosey goosey, but in our conversation I'm like, yeah, planning each day really brings to focus that intention.

Tonya: Yes, it really does because you can create your day with intention. You can either actively choose to carve out like these million-dollar minutes.

You know what, after school today, let's say you have three kids, today is I'm going to spend 10 minutes with child number two today, after school. And I'm going to give them 10 minutes of my undivided attention, and here's the thing is every day is different. So why do we think that we can plan out the day.

Five days ahead of time, you don't know how you're going to wake up. You don't know if you're going to have, a sick kid crawling into your bed at three o'clock in the morning. If you're going to have allergies and cold, you don't know if it's going to be one of those days. You just don't feel like doing anything.

We all have those days. So allow yourself the grace allow yourself the choice to really make the day work for you. Whatever that day may be.

Nancy: Because that I think so many because of our, because of so many of my clients with the anxiety treat themselves like a machine and planning each day. My thought would be even if my kid wakes me up at 3:00 AM, I still should be up and on my game, the same.

Tonya: Yeah, right

And I'm like, and it's ok not to be. Again this is probably tied to a story. A good mom gets up with her kids and make sure, you know what my story is, a good mom empowers her children to be able to get themselves up and to be able to create, their own breakfast. That's my story, that I've rewritten for myself.

So if I am having an off day and I need to lay in bed for 15 minutes longer, my kids can get started with their day. And I feel okay with that because I am empowering them. I'm giving them the tools. They need to be able to go on into life and fly my nest and be good productive adults. And I think that's the thing is we believe that we have to be the cruise director.

We have to manage everything. And when you give your family that ability to manage themselves, that is a gift that is really a tool you're putting in their toolbox to be able to go off into the world and be self-sufficient to be capable and able to create their own. And so we have to reframe again, it's that whole idea of mindset, right?

And the choices we make and the way that we talk to ourselves, we have to reframe that. And we have that ability to do that and look at how this is a benefit to other people that you're allowing them to get themselves up. Stop shoulding on yourself. You got to stop

Nancy: And that you're teaching your kids, that we're humans and that we have different needs.

And I could, I needed to take care of myself and not just be a machine.

Tonya: You're teaching your kids. If you are getting up and you are revolving your whole life around them, what are you teaching them about your value? What are you teaching them that life looks like when they're an adult, when they're a parent, how they're supposed to be, we're role modeling on a constant basis.

Giving them that ability to take care of things on their own is a gift. That's so much freedom. I feel like it's just like a weight lifted off of you to be able to say, okay, you can take care of this on your own go off into the world.

Nancy: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This thank you so much for taking the time.

To talk about this stuff. And, I can not recommend this book enough. And I have of blue library full of self-help books and productivity books. And this is one of the best I've ever read as because, because you really answer that. But how and question, which I think is so important and there's.

And you make it so approachable that I can pick and choose, all I'm doing is the daily download and the planning each day concepts, because those stuck out to me, but then there's more, it has a depth to it. Yeah.

Tonya: We don’t want to try to do everything all at once anyways. Because again, we're going to get overwhelmed.

So start with one thing that you pulled from the book, then add two and then. And make it, so it really works for you and pick and choose what does work for you, what doesn't work for you.

Nancy: Because that's what I appreciated it because so many times it's I even have a blog post that I wrote that says you don't need another system because my clients will be like, I just need a system and then everything will be better.

And your book is really looking at the whole picture and not just, you need to do step 1, 2, 3, 4, and then your problems will be solved..

Tonya: Yeah, there's no magic button Sorry. Yes. No, sorry. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but there is no magic button, no magic system that just takes it all away and makes life easy.

Like we said earlier. It takes a little bit of work. It takes some effort to, to change your mindsets, but we're really, when you do that, when you start creating a life for yourself, that feels meaningful, it is rewarding.

Nancy: Yeah, it, yeah. So I can't say enough. Good things. Thank you so much for taking the time.

And writing this book, getting up at 4:30 in the morning, (Laughing)

Tonya: Happy to do it. but thank you so much for having me on the show. I appreciate it.

Nancy: As you heard in the interview, I have added the daily download to my routine. I confess I'm still trying to make it a regular part of my routine because I frequently just forget to do it.

But when I do it, it is a total game changer. So I have a lot of motivation to keep carrying on. I have found that the more I slow down and intentionally plan, the more I accomplish. And I have also found that even though I know intentional planning works best, I still am drawn to that. Gosh, darn to-do list and the hit of dopamine from it.

But that hit does not even come close to matching the feeling of working with thoughtfully towards my goals. So as a reminder, this is all about making slow, intentional changes and remembering the power of spiraling.

Transcript:

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Episode 109: How To Feel Less Stress During the Holidays

In the spirit of the season, I am going to explore Four Holiday Landmines that can take your High Functioning Anxiety through the roof and offer some tips to help you ease your anxiety and enjoy yourself.

I come from a long, proud line of women dealing with High Functioning Anxiety. And never is this more apparent than during the holidays.

Take my mom, for instance.

She loves the holidays and wants to make them as fantastic and magical as possible. But, as those of us with High Functioning Anxiety will understand, she has a tendency to overperform and over function during the holiday season. And, as a result, the expectations and responsibilities of the festivities can be overwhelming. 

This is why I thought it would be appropriate to conclude this month’s conversation around High Functioning Anxiety in our everyday lives by taking a closer look at how High Functioning Anxiety reveals itself during the holidays.

In the spirit of the season, I am going to explore Four Holiday Landmines that can take your High Functioning Anxiety through the roof and offer some tips to help you ease your anxiety and enjoy yourself. 

In today’s episode, Four Holiday Landmines:

• Quietly meeting or exceeding everyone else’s expectations of perfect gift-giving traditions

• Desperately trying to recreate the perfect holiday get-together even when you’re missing loved ones

• Single-handedly balancing conflicting needs and expectations while you share space with friends and family

• Anxiously attempting to follow through on unnecessarily high expectations for holiday preparations

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to start accepting ourselves as we are so we can start living the moment

• How we can have happiness without devaluing the daily experience

• 3 Myths of When-Then thinking

• And recognizing life’s daily opportunities so we can experience life more deeply and fully

+ Read the Transcript

I fell into the chair, my back was killing me, my feet felt like they might fall off in protest, and my head was pounding. “How have you done this all these years?” I said to my Mom in exhaustion. She laughed and said, “I LOVE Christmas! And it is exhausting for sure!” This was the first year my Mom started handing me the torch of being Mrs. Christmas. The first year she really let me behind the scenes of her magical Christmas workshop, I couldn’t believe it. When being on the receiving end of her work, everything seemed so effortless. Presents were wrapped perfectly, customizing the wrapping for each person. The food selection was endless and delicious, and the kitchen was always clean. But behind the scenes, I saw how much work it took to make everything appear effortless and holly jolly. Starting with Thanksgiving, I don’t think my Mom sat down once until after New Year.

Let’s be honest the holidays are the epitome of mixed emotions. Joy, Peace, and Jolly Merrymaking are combined with Exhaustion, FOMO, anxiety, and self-doubt. The holidays have it all! The PRESSURE around the holidays is immense.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

All this month, we have been talking about High Functioning Anxiety and how to see it playing out in your everyday life. As today in the states is Thanksgiving, and we have officially entered the Holiday season, I thought it would be appropriate to talk about High Functioning Anxiety and the holidays. I know you are going to be surprised to hear, my Mom has High Functioning Anxiety :) Yes, she LOVES the holidays, AND yes, she Overperforms, over functions, and gets overwhelmed as we all do. Which is why I wanted to do this episode looking at how High Functioning Anxiety reveals itself during the holidays.

Like the meme I shared last week said, “It’s the Holiday season. Time to replace my everyday anxiety with my fancy holiday anxiety.”

In the spirit of the season, I am going to explore four landmines during the holidays that can take your HFA through the roof and offer some tips to help you ease your anxiety and enjoy yourself.

The first landmine Gift Giving

Every year someone asks me how they should address changing how they give gifts. My first answer to this question is that if we are even going to THINK about this very challenging conversation, it needs to happen WELL before November or December. Honestly, this conversation needs to start in January. There needs to be a lot of groundwork for this conversation.

So often, people will say to me that they want to buy homemade gifts or do a secret Santa rather than the big gift-giving frenzy we have done for the past 30 + years. It makes sense–you want to have less consumerism, spend less money on stuff that will eventually end up in the landfill, AND, quite honestly, gift-giving for people with HFA can be exhausting. We put so much pressure on ourselves to find the perfect gift that letting this search go and changing this tradition is a wise idea.

And yet, for some people in your life, gift-giving is a year-long event. They take the whole year to find the perfect gift (and enjoy it!), not to mention it is a tradition and changing traditions can be hard.

Two things I see happening the most around the holidays. First, we forget to look at the issue through the lens of the other. We don’t think about how much joy your cousin who doesn’t have kids gets from buying everyone in your family a gift. She starts in February and buys lots of little presents for everyone in the family. She would be devastated if gift-giving was ended.

And secondly, because those of us with HFA love rules, we tend to get stuck in black and white thinking. There are LOTS of ways to do gift-giving; it doesn’t have to be tit for tat. It doesn’t have to be big extravagant gifts. This is why the ongoing conversation is so important.

So if you want to change how your family does gift-giving, lay the groundwork early, make tiny changes and try to see it through the lens of your other family members.

Which takes me to the second land mine Missing Loved Ones.

Change is inevitable, we all know this, and yet when changes to traditions happen, we can become sad, angry, or even bitter. When we have HFA, we LOVE traditions, predictability, and knowing expectations. But Traditions change. People get married, have babies. Our loved ones grow older, and deaths can rock us to the core. So if your holidays are changing this year, here are some tips:

Acknowledge how the change feels.

Yes, you should be happy for your brother who just had a baby and has decided to spend Christmas with his partner’s family this year, AND You are going to miss him. Both are true. The tendency is to fall into blame and shame. Blaming his partner for taking him away from your family or getting angry at him for not being strong enough to stand up to his partner’s! ALL that drama can be avoided when we acknowledge all that we are feeling– the anger, sadness, disappointment, and excitement of having a new little one.

Maybe this year it’s YOU who can’t be home for the holidays, or you are going to your in-law’s house for the first time.

Maybe you have recently lost someone, and you are doing the holidays without them for the first time. Again, allow yourself to feel what comes up. There is no right way to feel when we are going through a loss. Give yourself room to feel how you feel. It is ok to feel sad, and it is ok to feel joyful. We put so much pressure on ourselves to feel a certain way around the holidays.

Make sure to ask yourself how do I want my holidays to feel, and throughout the coming weeks, be intentional about what you do or don’t do to celebrate.

The 3rd landmine Sharing space.

I don’t know about you, but I LOVE my space. I love, no I need my own space. I need time to regroup, and during the holidays, this can be hard to come by. There are so many people who might only see each other once a year, and here they are sharing close living quarters. This is another time when you might decide to change it up and stay at a hotel (again, give your loved ones LOTS of notice on this one). But if you are sharing space for a few days, here are some tips:

Be honest with yourself. The tendency is to push yourself too far and convince yourself you are fine. Then all of a sudden, you are imploding (or more likely exploding), and your family is like, what the hell just happened? So to avoid this drama, be honest and take time for yourself.

I have noticed that when I need space, I tend to play with my phone more. I will constantly be checking social media or refreshing to read useless facts. Now, rather than just sitting there not engaging (because I am on my phone), I will leave the hustle and bustle to take a walk, sit quietly alone, or even lie down for a nap. I remember the first time I did this. I thought it was going to be a big deal; people would wonder where I was and think something is wrong. I had quietly said to my husband, “I am going to take a break,” and he said ok. When I returned to the celebration, I realized no one had missed me. I wasn’t greeted with “are you ok?” or where were you?” I was greeted with “hey, welcome back” (As if they hadn’t even noticed I was gone!) Feel free to step away from political conversations as well. Some people LOVE debating politics, and some people hate it. Either way, be true to yourself and take a break. You don’t have to engage.

The 4th landmine is Holiday Expectations and Preparations.

This is where your HFA can kick into high gear. (Hi Mom!!) Yep, we can pour all of our anxiety into holiday prep. Finding the perfect gifts for each person on our list, holiday decorating, the family photo for the holiday cards, and making sure your kids experience a fun-filled, holly, jolly holiday. PRESSURE. It is A LOT of pressure. Too often, our HFA kicks in, and we are obsessed with having the most amazing house on the block or meticulously placing each ornament on the tree. I can remember how stressed I would get when we would buy our Christmas Tree. It HAD to be perfect. No holes, no saggy branches. I would hem and haw and look at all the choices.

And then, one year, I realized, with all the ornaments and lights, it doesn’t even matter. And my favorite trees are the ones that have a little character. Perfection is overrated.

Here’s a little secret: Sometimes, all that doing, planning, and prepping bring you joy. I LOVE cooking for my family when they come into town, breakfast casseroles, cakes, cheese balls, and cookies. I love finding new recipes, getting up early the days before the holiday, and hustling around the kitchen. Just like my Mom loves being Mrs. Christmas. All that work brings her joy. There is a fine line between feeling joyful and feeling overwhelmed.

When you stop enjoying what you are doing – when you are frustrated, angry, or demanding – then it is time to ask yourself, why am I doing this? One of my favorite questions to ask myself (especially around the holiday season) is: Will this matter one year from now? Will I remember? And more importantly, will anyone around me remember?

It is a powerful question that I saw play out first hand at Thanksgiving last year. We had spent Thanksgiving with my aunt and uncle the year before, and it was a wonderful feast. I remember lots of laughter and delicious food.

So I was surprised when my aunt was going over the menu for Thanksgiving, and she quickly said, “And the stuffing WON’T be dry this year! I promise.”

My husband looked at me and said, “Do you remember the stuffing being dry?”

And I laughed and said, “I don’t even remember the stuffing!!”

My aunt looked at us puzzled and then started laughing. Yep, she had spent the past 12 months beating herself up about something that none of us remembered. Her Monger was hammering her for something that only mattered to her.

When it comes to last year, I remember feeling connected, peaceful, and joyous. I don’t remember the stuffing.

Keep this in mind when your start pushing, hustling, and stressing over the holidays.

If I asked you how do you want your holidays to feel? I bet you would say something like peaceful, happy, and jolly. But too often, we allow our HFA to take over, and the holiday becomes about drama, stress, and exhaustion.

There is one last thing that I want to cover, and I will make this quick.

It is ok to say No.

You DO NOT have to say yes to every invite. Parties, festivities, and merrymaking – pick and choose. Say yes to the activities that you will enjoy and say no to the activities that will drain you. You don’t have to say yes to everything.

AND let’s be real– there are going to be events that you have to say yes to even though you don’t want to go. Because of this, energy management is key. For those “obligation” events, make sure you have a plan to manage your energy. Maybe you and your spouse drive separately so you can go late or leave early. Have a sign with your partner or co-worker so you can quietly let them know when you are stuck or overwhelmed. Take regular breaks. Go outside to get some air, head to the bathroom, etc.

Energy Management is also key if you are looking forward to an event. You want to have enough energy to enjoy yourself. You don’t want to be tired and cranky for your favorite holiday gathering. Often we get so caught up in our to-do list we forget to enjoy the fun parts of the holidays. Remember to make sure that you are taking the time to look up from your holiday expectations and planning to actually enjoy the holiday. That is one thing my Mom taught me– as hard as she works to do a fantastic magical Christmas, she soaks up every minute of the holiday, too. Her HFA can run the show, but it doesn’t get in the way of her celebrating the holidays.

Finally please don’t forget the most important part of the holidays. Kindness. Kindness to yourself. Kindness to others. We are all human beings with our own doubts, insecurities, and fears.

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Episode 102: The Dangers Of Positive Thinking

Today on the Happier Approach we examine one of the most toxic ideas pushed by the industry: positive thinking.

In the last episode, we started pulling back the curtain on the toxicity that exists in the self-help industry. Today on the Happier Approach we examine one of the most toxic ideas pushed by the industry: positive thinking.

One of the most misleading concepts that the self-help industry teaches is the benefit positive thinking – change your thoughts and stop feeling so negative! If it were that easy – if all we had to do was put on our rose-colored glasses – why are so many people still depressed, anxious and overwhelmed?

It is my theory that the self-improvement industry is selling the wrong thing. We don’t need to simply “think positively.” Instead, we need to quiet the cacophony of positive thinking messages that come our way on a daily basis--and listen in to our own inner peace.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How the message of positive thinking is holding us back and even harming us

• Where our belief in the positive psychology movement originated

• How research contradicts the claims of the positive psychology industry has been selling you

• And practical tools and resources that you can use in place of just “looking on the bright side”

Research and resources mentioned:

• Journal of Personality and Social Psychology study by Prof Brett Ford and Prof Iris B. Maus

• The Happier Approach System: A.S.K.

• Gabrielle Oettingen

  • Her book Rethinking Positive Thinking

  • And her W.O.O.P. system

• Peter M Gollwitzer

• Oliver Burkeman’s book The Antidote: Happiness for People Wo Can’t Stand Positive Thinking

• My books on living with High Functioning Anxiety

• And how you can work with me one-on-one

+ Read the Transcript

9.9 billion dollars. That’s how big the self-improvement market is, according to the organization Market Data.

Now, I don’t have to tell you: 9.9 billion dollars is a lot of money.

All that money is being spent to convince you that you could be happier, less stressed, and more fulfilled if only you followed this method or read this book or another.

Now here’s my question: If the self-improvement industry was so successful, why are so many people depressed, anxious, and overwhelmed?

It is my theory that the self-improvement industry is selling the wrong thing. We don’t need to be improved; we need to be accepted. One of the most dangerous things the self-help industry teaches is you need to think positive, change your thoughts and stop feeling so negative!!

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships, exploring the challenge of living with High Functioning Anxiety. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

Last week we started pulling back the curtain on the toxicity that exists in the self-help industry. One of the most toxic ideas is positive thinking. Years ago, when I first started my private practice and would teach on living happier, I was a big proponent of think positive and the idea of change your thoughts, change your life. I would write about it, teach about it, and believed in the power of positivity. It was around the time of my Dad’s diagnosis with Parkinson’s that the crack in the positive thinking mantra began to begin. You might be thinking, what is positive about a Parkinson’s diagnosis, but trust me, I found it. Well, at least we found it early, or we can research it and build our battle plan. No sadness, no anger, just push on, soldier on, buck up, and think positive. It started showing up in other areas, too; my relationships started to suffer because I couldn’t handle anything ‘negative.’ It is hard to have real relationships when you are a ‘high vibes only person.’ It left me feeling disconnected, disenfranchised, and frankly bitter. I realized all this positive thinking left me feeling worse about my life, not better. Positive thinking felt great initially, but over time, it left me feeling empty and cut off from myself. But it wasn’t until a few years ago that I finally began speaking up about the dangers of positive thinking and how especially for those of us with HFA, it can be keeping us stuck

Those of us with HFA have a habit of ignoring what is really going on. Because High Functioning Anxiety is rooted in the belief that we are flawed and unworthy. As a coping mechanism for our anxiety, we wall off the “unpleasant parts” of ourselves. So we LOVE the idea of positive thinking because it gives us permission to avoid the parts of ourselves that are not acceptable. As a result, positive thinking is something we tend to take a little too far. Positive thinking keeps us from being rooted in reality, accepting ourselves no matter where we are

First off, let’s talk research. Well, let me be honest and say the research in the positive psychology industry and especially the self-help industry is controversial at best. When Martin Seligman started the Positive Psychology movement, he talked about shifting the focus away from a disease model and pathology. Sounds good right? Focus on the positive, the problem is his movement went from one extreme to another-- happiness became the new holy grail.

The Positive Psychology movement began devoting time and energy to research. Which showed the positive effects of changing your thoughts and being more positive in general. What we now know is much of that research was not replicable and was peer-reviewed by people who shared the same beliefs. So a bit of groupthink was happening in the Positive Psychology world.

The idea of ‘be more positive is that you will achieve more goals, be more productive and feel better if you are positive. Much of the research that was done measured the immediate results of changing your thoughts from positive to negative. So let’s say you get in a fight with your spouse over who should who is doing more. You leave the house in a huff and in the spirit of positive thinking, start naming all the things you are feeling positive about in the moment, saying to yourself, “He is a loving, father and I am just going to concentrate on his positive traits”. You do feel better initially. I mean who wouldn’t. You are thinking warm, fuzzy thoughts. And they are true thoughts, but they are avoiding what is really going on. Many of the positive psychology research is studying this immediate, initial response which is usually positive. You will feel happier in the moment.

The issue is later. Long term. One week, 4 weeks, 6 months later when you haven’t dealt with this problem. When you are more frustrated than ever at your spouse’s lack of help and/or lack of appreciation. When you have stuffed down all those ‘negative emotions in order to feel positive, will you be happier? I found the answer to be no, and so do many of my clients. Let’s say her name is Mindy. Mindy grew up in an overwhelming household. She survived a toxic childhood and thanks to her diligent attention, she saved her brothers too.. As she sat in my office, she said, “I survived, and I am so proud of that, I don’t really want to go there again.” But the issue was every Father’s Day every year on her Dad’s birthday every year on her birthday not to mention all the other celebrations that involved happy-go-lucky fathers, she was reminded how terrible her childhood was. Her alcoholic father was not one of those happy go lucky people. But Mindy had survived by thinking positive, she was in perpetual motion and the words ’at least’ or ‘but on the positive side’ were regular parts of her vocabulary. She came to see me because her anxiety was through the roof and she was constantly lashing out at her spouse and kids in frustration.

In a study of more than 1,300 adults, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, researchers found that subjects who reported trying to avoid negative emotions in response to bad experiences were more likely to have symptoms of mood disorders, such as anxiety and depression, 6 months later, compared with those who embraced their negative emotions.

Lead researcher Professor Brett Ford: “It turns out that how we approach our own negative emotional reactions is really important for our overall well-being. People who accept these emotions without judging or trying to change them are able to cope with their stress more successfully.”

In fact, he goes on to say, “Maybe if you have an accepting attitude toward negative emotions, you’re not giving them as much attention,” speculates Prof. Mauss. “And perhaps, if you’re constantly judging your emotions, the negativity can pile up.”

So, here’s a radical idea. What if there are no such thing as positive or negative emotions there are just emotions. What if there is no such thing as positive thoughts or negative thoughts they are just thoughts, and we need to accept them as the data they are. NOT judge them, ridicule them or try to change them. Just accept them as the data they are.

The truth is suppressing our thoughts means we can’t accurately assess our experiences. If we can’t learn from the lows, we can’t enjoy the highs either. We are human beings, and the goal is to experience a wide range of emotions. I am beyond grateful that I learned this lesson early on in my Dad’s Parkinson’s diagnosis. Our relationship grew after his diagnosis because I could really show up for all of it the good and the bad. I wasn’t forcing myself to think positive and so I didn’t have to force him to either. We could just be there together in a hard, exhausting situation.

Secondly, so-called negative emotions are warning lights — they alert us to potential issues or danger. They grab our attention so we can focus on what we need to change or solve.

In our work together my client Mindy and I spent a lot of time doing what I call “embracing the and”. When Mindy would say I get sad on Father’s Day but then I tell myself, you survived be happy! I suggested she say to herself, Father’s day makes me sad because I never had a dad that would play with me and support me AND I am happy I made it out as quickly as I did. Over time Mindy learned her negative emotions weren’t that scary, they were just emotions. As she embraced the and and practiced other ways of honoring her self her anxiety began to decrease. She began to give herself kindness around all the anger, fear and sadness that came up and accept that they were just as much a part of her as the positive stuff.

So in addition to embracing the and, what can you do? Today I am going to share 3 ways to talk to yourself when you feel those unpleasant thoughts and emotions.

The first approach is the approach that I share in my book the Happier Approach, so taking the to the spouse argument example, rather than hopping in the car and immediately trying to change your thoughts to the positive, you practiced the Happier Approach System: A.S.K. you acknowledged what you are feeling. Then you slowed down and got into your body (some type of full-body movement, stretching for the sky, touching your toes, or wiggling your whole body) and finally you Kindly, pulled back to see the big picture. This is where you can determine what your spouse is doing to annoy you, why it is annoying you, what you need to ask for moving forward.

So later that night when you come home and see your spouse, you will have honored and accepted what you are feeling. And you will be ready to listen, share and solve the issue at hand.

The second approach is brought to you by Gabrielle Oettingen is a leading researcher and psychology professor at NYU. She has done a lot of research in the field of positive thinking and through her studies she has proven that positive thinking does not work in the long term she says: “Positive thinking can make us feel better in the short term, but over the long term it saps our motivation, preventing us from achieving our wishes and goals, and leaving us feeling frustrated, stymied and stuck. The more that people ‘think positive’ and imagine themselves achieving their goals, the less they actually achieve.”

The system that she has discovered is called WOOP and stands for wish outcome, obstacle and plan. So again taking the example of your spouse and your argument

WHAT IS YOUR WISH? What is your most important wish or concern?

I wish to stop keeping score and fighting over who does what. To just appreciate each other for what we bring to the table.

WHAT IS THE BEST OUTCOME?

If your wish is fulfilled, where would that leave you? What would be the best, most positive outcome?

Outcome: to fight far less, to have more joy day-to-day because we could be able to talk through when we are feeling underappreciated without being so defensive.

WHAT IS YOUR MAIN INNER OBSTACLE?

What is it within you that holds you back from fulfilling your wish? It might be an emotion, an irrational belief, or a bad habit. Think more deeply—what is it really?

The fear that he will take advantage of me, that I will ALWAYS be doing more because I am such an over-achiever and he is ok with what is.

MAKE A PLAN

What can you do to overcome your obstacle? Identify one action you can take or one thought you can think to overcome your obstacle.

PLAN: To be open and honest with yourself, to own when you are feeling underappreciated and ask am I appreciating myself? Is this take THAT important? And where can I ask for help?

She details these findings and her approach in her book Rethinking Positive thinking you can also check out her website woopmylife.org

And the 3rd approach is by the psychologist Peter M Gollwitzer and his colleagues at New York University have used a strategy called ‘implementation intentions’, in which people form plans about future action using ‘if-then statements:

“If I start to feel angry at my spouse about feeling underappreciated, THEN I will ask myself am I appreciating myself? Or If I am appreciating myself and still feel anger, then I will be honest with my husband and ask for help rather than pouting.

And finally, I want to share one of my favorite books on this subject written by Oliver Burkeman entitled: The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can’t Stand Positive Thinking

Burkeman writes in The Guardian: {Research] points to an alternative approach [to happiness]: a ‘negative path’ to happiness that entails taking a radically different stance towards those things most of us spend our lives trying hard to avoid. This involves learning to enjoy uncertainty, embracing insecurity and becoming familiar with failure. In order to be truly happy, it turns out, we might actually need to be willing to experience more negative emotions – or, at the very least, to stop running quite so hard from them.

This week I challenge you to experience ALL your thoughts and emotions, they are not something to be controlled or changed, they are simply information.

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It’s no secret that I have a bone to pick with the self-help industry. The solutions it sells leave women living with hidden anxiety--women like you--with more stuff to be anxious about. Or worse, it turns you off from getting help completely.

“At this point, I’ve made my case that positive thinking doesn’t always create positive results. In fact, for women like you dealing with hidden High Function Anxiety, positive thinking can be really dangerous.

Of course, the self-help industry doesn’t want you to know. The solutions it sells leave you walling off parts of yourself. Feeling less authentic and more anxious.

I want to help you dial back the overwhelm and overthinking with a set of tools designed just for people like you. It’s not woo-woo. It’s not trying to positively think your challenges away. And I’m certainly not going to tell you to start living your best life.

I work one-on-one with women like you to deconstruct why anxiety creeps upon you and give you something to do about it.

Here’s how it works:

First, we meet for an extended 90-minute session to uncover your stories and habits. You know, the ones that keep you stuck.

Then, you continue to work with me on-demand through an app that lets you leave a message for me any time you start to feel anxious or whenever you feel the Monger attack. I’ll get back to you with action steps for moving through the discomfort and finding peace. Plus, you’ll continue to meet with me for monthly sessions, too.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

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Episode 087: This Isn't Just About The Stigma of Mental Illness

This week my heart was heavy after the suicides of 2 famous people and the release of the CDC report saying suicide rates are at an all-time high. It is time for a revolution.

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This week we lost two successful, famous, life-touching individuals, Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain. But according to the American Federation for Suicide Prevention, every day, we lose 123 people to suicide.

The deaths of Kate and Anthony have left people stunned and saddened. This news combined with the CDC report released this week which said that suicides are up 30%

It is easy to feel saddened. To feel stunned. And to explain it away as a mental illness or as drugs and addiction. Anything to make us feel better that suicide won’t touch us. But at this rate. It will.

This isn’t just about the stigma of mental illness. Over 50% of suicides are by someone who didn’t have a previously known mental health issue.

This is about the stigma of any mental or emotional pain.

The stigma of being sad, depressed, anxious, and overwhelmed. The stigma of experiencing anything less than happiness and joy all the time.

We are so caught up in appearing happy, successful, and accomplished. All that keeping up with appearances keeps us busy. SO busy. Too busy for the real check-ins necessary to connect on a deeper level and see each other’s pain.

Twice this week, I chatted with friends who, when describing their pain, real serious pain, quickly ended their story with, “it’s no big deal. I should be grateful for all I have.”

We are so quick to move past the pain. Hurry right on past it.

I mean, life is good. I should be happy, right?

This isn’t just about mental illness. This is about the stigma of any mental or emotional pain.

We move through life at lightning speed. Too busy for anything beyond data sharing. Too caught up in the next thing on our to-do list to really settle down and check in with ourselves, let alone someone else in our lives. And the anxiety, sadness, depression, the pain just keeps piling on.

This isn’t just about mental illness. This is about the stigma of any mental or emotional pain.

You have chest pain? You go to the doctor. No one judges you for being weak or pathetic, or unsuccessful.

You have emotional pain? You push it down. You suck it up. You soldier on. Because emotional pain means you are weak. You are pathetic. You are less than.

Sounds harsh, doesn’t it. And yet, that is how we as Americans think. That is why we quickly follow any sharing of pain with “it’s no big deal, I should be grateful for all I have.”

This isn’t just about mental illness. This is about the stigma of any mental or emotional pain.

This requires a revolution. This requires demanding more of ourselves.

Here’s where to start:

Listen. Just listen. No advice. No problem-solving. No thinking positive, or be grateful, no brainstorming. Just listen.

When someone says, “this is no big deal.” Remind them it is their life. It is their pain. Therefore it is a big deal. Be curious. Ask them to share more. Show up for their pain even though it makes you uncomfortable or you feel like you are too invasive. If we are going to do this differently, we are going to have to get uncomfortable.

This isn’t just about mental illness. This is about the stigma of any mental or emotional pain.

Re-prioritize. Pause your to-do list and check-in with yourself. Is all this stuff worth it? Are all the to-dos and the mad scrambles worth it? At the end of your life, are these activities something you are going to look at with joy and fondness?

Earlier this month, I did a re-calibration of my priorities. Realizing that I was pushing too much. Scrambling too hard. For what? At what cost? We are prioritizing our to-do list over our friends and family. We are choosing checking items off the list over connecting with others. We are engaging in simply sharing data over sharing our pain, our dreams, our struggles.

This is a two-fold revolution.

First, we need to show up for ourselves. Step off the hamster wheel and check in with our lives, our values, and our priorities.

Second, we need to show up for others. Take the time and the patience to ask people how they are and listen for the answer. And then ask a follow-up question. And another. And another.

It’s time for a revolution.

This isn’t just about mental illness. This is about the stigma of any mental or emotional pain.

Let’s do this.

If you are feeling suicidal or know someone who is call: 1-800-273-TALK

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Episode 079: Happier Approach Q&A

A new monthly segment for the show the Happier Approach Q&A. Answering listener questions about all things Live Happier and The Happier Approach.

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Today is the happier approach Q & A, and I've wanted to take one episode a month and turn it into a question and answer type format. I didn't put out any call out for questions, but I've been getting some questions. I thought, okay, I'll start it with this episode and turn this episode into the Happier Approach Q & A, and then on my website on the podcast page, I will put a link where you can go and ask a question.

The first question I have is, My Monger keeps coming back. What can I do? The easy answer to that is, yep, your monger is going to keep coming back, and so you can't do anything except keep practicing ASK. That's a disheartening answer, so I will give you more than just that because the bottom line is, your monger doesn't go away. This book, The Happier Approach, and my methodology are teaching you a way to quiet the voice of the monger so that your biggest fan's voice gets louder. It's simultaneously quieting the monger and bringing in the voice of the biggest fan and making that voice a little louder. Your default isn't always the monger; it's sometimes is the biggest fan. That's the idea behind the happier approach is not to get rid of the monger altogether, and that will just send you down a rabbit hole. I have been down that rabbit hole of, oh, my God. I'm practicing ASK. Why isn't this working? My monger is still here.

I can give you a couple of tips around that in the next question. I just really want you to know you are not going to be able to silence your monger completely. It's still going to talk there. I have found that when your monger gets loud, it usually means you're on to something. By on to something, I mean you're stretching your boundaries, you're pulling out of your comfort zone, you're chasing a big dream, you're doing something uncomfortable.

It's usually something good that you're doing for yourself or your life, but your monger is freaked out because it wants you to stay small. Your monger wants you to be protected, so the more you do that puts you out there, the more at risk you are, the more your monger is going to shame you. It's a counterintuitive thought process. I talk about that more next week in next week's episode that's coming up on Sunday. The bottom line is, your monger is going to be there, and the idea of the happier approach is to figure out how to slowly over time bringing up the voice of the biggest fan and diminishing more the voice of the monger is the plan. That's the goal of the work of The Happier Approach.

The next question I have is, how quickly do I move through ASK? If I am sad, do I wait until I'm done feeling sad before I move on to getting into my body? That's a great question. I just want to refresh what ASK is for a very new listener or haven't read The Happier Approach. ASK is the acronym I used to quiet the monger and bring in the biggest fan. When you hear your monger talking, you're going to ASK, which simply means acknowledge what you're feeling, is the A. Slow down and get into your body is the S. And K, kindly pull back to see the big picture.

The question is, if I'm sad, do I wait until I'm done feeling sad to move on, to slow down and get into your body? There is no hard and fast rule for how this ASK works. I encourage you to make it your own. My thought process on that is when I acknowledge what I'm feeling, and I can say, "Oh, I'm feeling sad about this." Then when I allow myself to slow down and get into my body, the emotion tends to come, so whether that's tears or my stomach gets a little upset, or I just feel more blah overall. When I start feeling that way, then I know I can feel the feeling all the way through. It's getting into my body, in the S, slow down and get into your body step, really allows me to feel the feeling a little bit more and to make it more real.

Now, the key is, and this is not in the question, but the key I have found, and I've done this with my clients. Sometimes, they'll just stop there in the process. They won't move on to kindly pull back and see the big picture. They'll acknowledge what they're feeling. They'll slow down and get into their body. And those two are just so hard to do in and of themselves that they don't do K, kindly pull back to see the big picture. The K one is, the kindly pull back to see the big picture, is the real monger fighter. Because when we can pull back and see the big picture, then that's the voice of our biggest fan giving us other options.

This weekend I had my book party. It was fabulous. Thank you to any of you who came out and who are listening. It just was a really fun celebration of the book, and the people, and The Happier Approach, and the whole thing. I was nervous about doing it, obviously. Very nervous about the book party and my monger was very chatty before that event. The idea of, okay, I woke up in the morning and I couldn't fall back asleep, and so I'm like, okay, I'm feeling nervous. I'm feeling excited. I'm feeling scared this isn't going to go well, or no one is going to show up, or it's going to be a failure.

Then, I slow down and get into my body. Then, the next step is kindly pull back to see the big picture. I have to do that because that's where the biggest fan steps in. When I pull back and see the big picture, I can be like, okay, I know five of my favorite people in the world are going to be there, so check that off, like, done. I don't have to worry about no one showing up because I know at least five of my favorite people in the world are going to be there. We have great food coming, and I know that's it's going to be surrounded by love and support. So I can start naming off the big picture of what that book party is going to look like. That's where the biggest fan lives.

I hijacked the question a little bit to really encourage you to make sure you take ASK all the way through to K, and not just stop at feeling sad if that's the feeling you're having. If you have acknowledged that you're feeling sad, and then you slow down and get into your body, the tears may come. You may feel it a little more holistically in your body, but then you can move on to K, the kindly pull back and see the big picture piece.

The last question is, someone asked me at the book party, and she said, is it bad that I want to keep improving? Are you discouraging that in me? Absolutely not. I'm not discouraging wanting to keep improving. I am encouraging you to not beat yourself up for where you are. There's a slight difference, and it's a fine line, but for a lot of us, we feel we're flawed just as we are. We tell ourselves when we get here, then we'll be okay. Believing in that, if I did it perfectly, my monger wouldn't be chatting. If a hundred people came to the book party, my monger would be happy.

That belief system gets us in trouble because it will never be true. Even if I had a hundred people come to the book party, then my monger would be beating me up because I didn't have enough food at the book party to serve a hundred people. There's always something the monger is going to find. It's the idea of, I'm okay as I am, and there's stuff I want to do. There's stuff that I want to accomplish. There are goals that I have for my life. If I don't accomplish those, I'm not a terrible person. Once we can just say, okay, I want to keep improving, I want to keep improving as a therapist. I want to keep improving as a podcaster. I want to keep improving as a speaker.

All of that is great and true, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to beat myself up for where I am now as a podcaster, or where I am now as a therapist. The power of the biggest fan is that it's helping you improve. It's helping you reach your goals. But it is doing that without beating you up, without criticizing where you're starting. That's the big point that you've got to make so that you can swallow is, that you're okay as you are, and your biggest fan is just going to help you keep getting better.

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