Season 2 Episode 8: Square Peg

In this episode, we explore embracing your square peg self rather than always trying to fit into a round hole.

In this episode, Nancy recounts a story of a moment where she didn't feel like she fit in her surroundings at all, but was able to find a very solid moment of connection with her inner voice of self-loyalty. Nancy shares a conversation with her childhood pastor, and friend, Gary Ritts. Gary tells the story of how he switched denominations partway through his ministerial career and never looked back. Finally, we get to hear a little more about Nancy's dad Ted, and how he inspired friends like Gary by being their human personification of the Biggest Fan.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to separate the voice of the Biggest Fan from the Monger and the BFF.

• How to accept your own square peg style.

• How to use moments of connection to tap into the voice of the Biggest Fan.

• Stories and advice from Gary Ritts.

Resources mentioned:

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy : Hey guys, it's me, Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the happier approach the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed a salon achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. Well, guys, we've finally arrived in the magical Land of Oz. This is our final episode of the season. On our journey down the yellow brick road to self loyalty, we've met friends like the biggest fan and foes like our old pal, the longer, we've talked with scientists and actors and walk through labyrinths, it's been quite a journey.

Nancy : This final episode is all about the final ingredient in the happier approach philosophy. Those ruby slippers you're wearing that can take you home to safety with a simple click of your heels. I'm talking about your inner sense of self loyalty. But even when we've done so much work to understand when that self low voice is speaking to us, it can be hard to separate out the noise of the monger or the BFF telling us that we're not good enough that we don't quite fit, that even though you're a square peg, you need to fit into a round hole. But when we're able to truly tune into our self loyalty, listen to that voice and begin to walk our own authentic path. That's when the magic really happens.

Nancy : My old office was bright and cheery, lots of natural light, fun, funky furniture and a bright orange accent wall. I loved my office, it was comfy and cozy and warm. This was a place I designed. It wasn't your typical therapists office, I had created my very own square hole for my square peg style. But there were a few downfalls to my office.

Nancy : Just because I had designed my office doesn't mean it was monga free. Some days my client appointments were spread wide apart, I would have a client at am pm and pm. So between clients, I would do writing or other work to spend my time. During those quiet work moments. My mongar would be loud, you're wasting time. And this writing sex, you aren't helping anyone with this crap. Her commentary was relentless. You are a crappy therapist, you are deep enough, you are helpful enough. Plus my cozy warm office was surrounded by a collection agency, which had rented all the other offices in my building. Often I would hear through the walls and agent on the phone trying to do collections. So we have a bill of $, from the lifeflight you had and if you make a payment today of $, we can start decreasing that bill. hearing those conversations was hard and also gave my mongar more fodder. You are so privileged it's so easy for you to sit here and judge. And the third downfall, the shared bathroom downstairs. Being the introvert I am I hated going to the bathroom downstairs, running the risk of running into someone or a group of people. And with my arthritis. Managing the stairs was particularly challenging because I had to hold on to the railing and hobble down the stairs. If someone was standing in the hallway, my mongar would start in. If you are in better shape, this wouldn't be so hard. You are just fat and out of shape. And now everyone can see that.

Nancy : And then there was the bathroom, dingy, smelly and hot. Inevitably one of the stalls would be unusable because it was clogged or out of toilet paper and the hand towels would be overflowing out of the trashcan.

Nancy : So one day I was having a particularly loud mongar day. I remember struggling with the grief over my dad's death and my mongar screeching you should be over this already. Why do you keep dwelling on his death? My biggest fan was trying to step in with grief takes time you will grieve him for the rest of your life. He was your dad your person. Of course, you're still grieving. And to top it all off, my arthritis was flaring and I was feeling beaten down exhausted and grouchy. By the time I made it to the bathroom, my head was spinning with all the shoulds of my mongar you should be in better shape. You should weigh less. You should be over your dad's death already. You should be more productive. You should be a better therapist.

Nancy : On and on and on.

Nancy : Even though I'd created this beautiful office space that fits my own unique style as a therapist, my mongar was still following me poking me in the ribs every chance she could get exactly where I had a bruise that wasn't quite healed yet. So how do we give ourselves grace in those moments? How do we tap into that feeling in our bones that we are on the right path? Even if that path seems strange from the outside, looking in?

Nancy : Right on time, but I got a little slack because I knew it was Gary. So I was like,

Gary : I take that knife right out of my back in a good thing. That's a good Oh, okay.

Nancy This is my old friend, Reverend Gary Ritz. Oh, shit, I gotta go. I forgot to tell mom that I was chatting with you. But I'll chat with her later today and tell her Oh, she listens to your sermon every weekend.

Nancy : She's a Gary devotee. Yes. Gary was the pastor at my church growing up. Even though he and his wife Judy only lived in our town in Ohio for a few years, they made a big impression on me and my family.

Nancy : Because you guys were unlike, you know, for me, I'm like any of our neighbors, or anyone we knew, because you were at that hippie dippie vibe that I was attracted to, but didn't have

Gary it was almost like stepping outside what seemed to be the normal culture around there, which farming country blue collar area. And all of a sudden, we're in with you guys. heartwarming and very normal and natural people. And we could talk what I felt like was on an equal level, not, you know, Minister to congregant. But as friends. I think that was the greatest thing that we became true friends. And there was no division among us.

Nancy Do you have any specific memories you would share about that time with us with our family

Gary it was an older house, beautiful, warm, had a kind of

Gary : a weathered smell about it, as I recall.

Gary : Always cooking going on. And you entered it and you just fell at home. As soon as you walked in, and your dad with his big welcoming voice and his huge laugh. I can still hear him laughing.

Nancy Gary's path to becoming a pastor started long before those afternoon spent with my family in Ohio.

Gary My father was a minister, my grandfather was a minister. And I can still remember I was in seventh grade and coming out of one of my father's churches after church, and somebody said to me, so what are you going to be when you grow up? And I just inadvertently said, Oh, I'll be a minister. And it just kind of kept going from there.

Nancy So Gary went to seminary school to become a Methodist minister, like his father and grandfather before him,

Gary I really didn't receive a sense of I'm in the right place until I was in seminary, because my faith was more of an intellectual pursuit, head trip, if you will. So I was just going through the motions. But then when I got to seminary, they had some interesting courses on spirituality and yoga, and getting in touch with the spirit within your body and listening to that other still small voice, not the big voice that's trying to overpower. And all of a sudden, it came alive for me. I thought I could do this.

Nancy Gary was beginning to carve his own path and the ministry, but sometimes working in the conservative Methodist Church, it just didn't feel right.

Gary The seeds of discontent were sown early for me, because I went to school out in Denver, Colorado, to a seminary that was very liberal and open minded. And I just remembered today that as I was out there, my internship was actually at a Congregational Church, UCC. So right away, I had an introduction to a different style. I was the Methodist going to this Congregational Church.

Nancy What's the difference between Methodist and congregational? Would you say

Gary two things, the structure itself is kind of the opposite. In the Methodist Church, it's sort of a power flow down the powers at the top. The UCC United Church of Christ is the opposite. The congregation is the final authority. The other thing, the difference is the Methodist Church is much more conservative in biblical understanding. And the UCC. The United Church of Christ is almost as liberal and open minded as the Unitarians, so their way left. So I was raised in a Methodist Church. I went to school to Methodist seminary. I started there in two Methodist churches.

Nancy But still, Gary didn't feel

Nancy : Like he was fitting into the Methodist mold,

Gary I began to sense the conservative trend around me. Even within the churches, I knew that there were those who wanted me to be different. And I wasn't giving them enough of the conservative side, it wasn't real vocal. But every once in a while I get the hint, I could play the game of the Methodist Church, you know, I could please the guys up in the offices. I knew how to do that. But I felt like it was being not true to myself. There was something missing. And then that was increasingly problematic for me. It felt like I was being disingenuous,

Gary : using the conservative language just to please people when I didn't believe it. And I found myself preaching a lot of messages more about personal responsibility and openness to other people and, and a faith that's based on what's going on inside you, not the Bible.

Gary : To follow a path that you you sense and that's not what they wanted to hear. But I just felt a little uncomfortable. Like I wasn't, I wasn't toeing the company line. I was feeling in myself that I this isn't working for me, I need to be honest with myself and with what some of my needs were and explore that side of me that was yearning for something different, something new.

Gary : The turning point for me, the tipping point was actually a puppet exchange where a minister from one church would switch places with the minister and another church was sort of like dominoes. One guy here, one guy there and one guy there, each of us would be in a different pulpit. So I happened again, to end up at a UCC church. And I love the people were very responsive. They love my message. The minister actually said to me, that I met him afterwards, he said, you know, you should look into the UCC, we'd be glad to have you. At that point. I asked mom. I said, Mom, what? What would dad have said, If I wanted to leave the Methodist Church. And she says, you know, he almost did too.

Gary : He had a run in with the hierarchy, as well. And only a couple years later, he left the pastor to become an administrative position in the Methodist Church. And I thought, well, and but she came back and said, but don't tell your grandmother.

Gary : I applied for a position in the UCC, I got a call from a church in Connecticut, in . And I was to be associate slash youth director.

Gary : And I thought, oh, that could be fun. We jumped ship in , and moved out to Fairfield, Connecticut,

Nancy now, nearly years later, and even though he's technically retired, Gary is still a pastor with the Congregational Church.

Gary When I look back over the sermons that I preached, especially the last years, almost every single one somehow touches the point of be aware of the spirit that is around you, like music and nature. And stories, stories were so important. I mean, I would always use the Bible as the basis. And I would make the point that Jesus was a storyteller. You know, that's, that's what he did. He tried to help people discover their faith alive within them. Like, Jesus isn't the end. It's what he represents. It's what's behind him. The cross isn't to be worshipped, it's what's behind that sacrifice, and compassion. And I always tried to teach that anyway, that I'm not here to preach. But

Nancy : so would you say you're even though you've switched denominations, your faith has stayed the same?

Gary Yeah, if not more open, the the older you get you realize that change as hard as it is, when you do change, you hope something will get better. And as you grow older, it doesn't always. So you begin to ask yourself more and more, what voice Am I hearing? What voice am I listening to? How do I figure out if that's my best friend or my big fan, or the longer that's talking? And I found myself that it's really important to be quiet

Gary : and just let things move within you and give it time. It's not something you can rush it you have to just sit with it for a while and do whatever you can do some journaling

Gary : Do some drawing or playing music or something that can help you get in touch with where you are in your journey and what you're really listening for.

Gary : It's important to name what's going on, I always tell the story that Jesus named the demons. And that's how you got control over

Gary : demons, I understand as negative thoughts, fear, monger talking, you know, if you can name those things, then you have more control over the source. And what you do with that. Self loyalty begins with knowing yourself. And that's not easy. To me, self loyalty means being, first of all aware of the self you're talking about. Explore your feelings, explore what you enjoy what you like to do, what you don't like to do. And then name those things. And then give yourself permission to choose what part of yourself you want to show, when it's appropriate, when it's when someone

Gary : will validate it for you. And be aware that there are those who will not. So it's okay to withhold a part of your true self. But find that authentic self first within yourself, listening to the voices that make you feel good about yourself, and worth something in the world, that you are lovable, and acceptable. That part is where you come from, choose it and make it work for others and for yourself, too.

Nancy : Since Gary is an old friend, and he knew my dad, Ted, the person who started my whole happier approach journey in the first place, I wondered, did he think my dad was self-loyal?

Gary As far as I could tell, I would say yes, he was a fast thinker. And he had his strong feelings about a lot of stuff. I don't remember ever getting into an argument with him because I knew it wouldn't be worth the effort. Because he was smarter than I was. Anyway.

Gary: His voice was one of wisdom. And that was I always appreciated it. He seemed to me to be a man of integrity. And I really admired that. And I think you could honestly count on what he said to you is His truth.

Gary : You know, that he wasn't hiding behind any image of himself or saying something I wanted to hear. You know, I think he was just very honest.

Nancy Okay. Do you have anything else to wrap us up? You would say or thought you'd leave us on?

Gary : Just thanks to to Ted, for being a person in my life. That Truly, I think accepted me as I was, and celebrated that because I certainly felt like I could be myself. So he's probably partly responsible for the fact that I am a United Church of Christ minister these days because he implied that it was okay to be myself.

Gary : Good fella. That guy.

Nancy He was good fella. You have me over here crying.

Nancy : I miss him.

Gary Yes, me too.

Nancy : But he was, but I think that was what was most. One of the most amazing things about him is his exterior. He was a biggest fan for a lot of people.

Gary Yes, yes.

Nancy And you wouldn't have known that when you first met him. But the people that took the time?

Gary Yep, you're right. He had kind of a gruff exterior. Yeah. But boy, what a soft guy he was.

Nancy : Gary's journey to self loyalty helped along by kind folks, like my dad really reminded me of how important it is to focus in on your true self loyal voice, to look at yourself right in the face and say, I may be a square peg, but I can find my own square peg path. And that's okay. In fact, it's exactly what I need.

Nancy : When we last left off, I was having a really bad longer day, struggling with grief over my dad's death, and attempting to take a breather in my dingy downstairs office bathroom.

Nancy : As I pushed open the door to the bathroom, I was greeted with that steel air of a poorly ventilated space. But one bright spot, I was alone. No one else was in the bathroom. As I exited the stall and made my way to the sink, I started washing my hands. I glanced up into the mirror to check my hair, make sure it looked presentable. But then, for some reason, I paused and I thought, wow, I rarely look at myself. I

Nancy : looked into my eyes and I said out loud How you doing? And initially I smiled thinking of that Joey from friends line. Once I made myself chuckle I looked deeper. I saw myself I saw my tired eyes, I saw my gray hair, and I softened. I started crying, just a few tears, but enough to freak out my mongar What are you doing? Stop crying. That's not appropriate. What if someone sees you? And then Fortunately, my biggest fan chimed in and said, Hey, sweet pea. How are you doing today? What's going on? I put my hands over my heart, took a few deep breaths. And I said to myself, you are okay. Right now you are safe and Okay, no matter what you're feeling. It's okay. I lingered there for what seemed like a long time, but was probably two seconds of just connecting with myself. During those few seconds, as I was making eye contact, I felt my biggest fan myself loyal voice. For a moment, I took off my professional mask of appearing to have it all together, being a good therapist being a good person trying to be on top of everything. And for a brief moment in that mirror, I just connected with me, the human being that is Nancy Jane Smith.

Nancy : Over the years, I've tried to find ways to connect with myself and honor the square peg that I am practicing self care messages, days off with plenty of idle time and even journaling. But those things never worked. sure I'd catch a small break, but nothing stuck. Standing in the dirty smelly bathroom and an office building filled with stress inducing business practices and strangers that I would avoid making small talk with, I was struck those few seconds in the mirror. That was true connection. I wasn't performing a version of myself that had it all together, I was looking at the real me in a place that I didn't feel particularly safe. I could get into that space of calm and centeredness just by truly making eye contact with myself in the bathroom.

Nancy : As I walked back upstairs to my office, I felt a sense of calm, a sense of connection. Being able to allow my tears allow my emotions and not turn my back on myself in that moment. That was important. It sounds extreme. But standing in the dirty bathroom stressed that someone would walk in and having such a deep connection with myself changed my life. I don't always need a massage a day off or many hours devoted to self care to reconnect with myself. To embrace my square peg. I just need to look at myself in the mirror. Really tune into that voice of self loyalty and check in how you do it.

Nancy : That's it for this week. And that's it for this season. Thank you for walking this path of self loyalty with us through all its twists and turns. We're working on some great stories for next season, and hope you'll stick with us for more chats with experts laughter and stories of self loyalty on the next season of the happier approach.

Nancy : The happier approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me Nancy Jane Smith, music provided by pod five and epidemics sound for more episodes to get in touch or to order a copy of my book, the happier approach you can visit live dash happier.com and if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes. It actually helps us out a lot. Special thanks to Gary Wits for speaking with us for this episode. The happier approach we'll be back with another season this winter. Take care until then.

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Season 2 Episode 7: Spiraling Up

In this episode, we explore the idea of spiraling, through anxiety, in our bodies, and throughout our lives.

This episode traces a familiar circle, pun intended! Nancy explores the idea of "spiraling" through a personal story about living the same lessons about anxiety over and over again. Then, she talks to movement educator and expert on the mind-body connection, Jenn Pilotti, about ways to combat anxiety by using your brain to tune into bodily sensations. Jenn shares some movement exercises, tips, and tricks for calming the nervous system through movement. At the end of the episode, Nancy puts what she learned from Jenn to the test, by taking a walk through a labyrinth.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to look at the so-called "anxiety spiral" in a new light.

• How to use movement to calm anxiety.

• Tips and tricks for tapping into the sensations of the body.

• Resources and advice from Jenn Pilotti.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to jennpilotti.com to sign up for Jenn's workshops or buy her book.

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Intro

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it's me, Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Let me tell you, and this might sound familiar, I've had some moments in my life where I think to myself, why am I here? Again, the belief that I can conquer my anxiety is still strong in me. Even after lots of time spent working through those feelings, I still find myself saying, If only I was smart enough, strong enough, or something enough, I would be able to conquer it. Sometimes it feels like I just keep spiraling through the same lessons over and over again. But in reality, I know that something enough's are impossible.

At the core of my philosophy on high functioning anxiety is to acknowledge your feelings, get into your body, and see a bigger picture. All while being kind to yourself. Learning to live with anxiety and not let it run the show is the true goal. But for me, the belief that I'm broken that I'm just living through the same lessons over and over like our rusty windup toy, is a tough one to let go of. In today's episode, we're going to search out an antidote to that spiraling feeling and rethink what it might mean to spiral towards something, rather than into a black hole of anxious feelings. So let's hop on that merry go round.

I'm looking at myself in the mirror, getting ready to go to a small gathering for the first time since COVID. Started, and I say to myself, I don't want to go to this party. I am so socially awkward, and even more so since COVID. What if I say something wrong? Or I do the wrong thing. It was the day after Fourth of July, and I was getting ready for a backyard barbecue with friends. I was tired from the family celebration to the fourth, and was feeling anxious about gathering with people making small talk and navigating being social after a year of limited social engagement. My monger started in Good grief. You are so anti social. What is wrong with you? Why can't you look forward to social events like other people? I knew she was wrong. I was excited to see our friends. And I was anxious. The being anxious part was not okay. I kept telling myself stop being anxious. What is wrong with you? My biggest fan the voice of self loyalty reminded me that it is okay. It is okay to be anxious. But it doesn't have to drive my actions.

But my monger wouldn't give up. Come on, get over it. What do you have to be anxious about? This is ridiculous. This is just a gathering of friends. You will be fine. Get over yourself. For most of the afternoon, my monger and my biggest fan went back and forth. Finally, my biggest fan said you weren't going to conquer this anxiety. And that is okay. Let's try being hyper present. bring yourself back to your body over and over throughout the event. As I got out of the car outside of my friend's house, I paused stretched my hands above my head and thought just be present. You will be okay. You are valuable, lovable, worthy period throughout the barbecue by monger chimed in constantly keeping a running commentary about what I was doing wrong. And what I should do next, like some demented sports announcer.

But each time I heard her say, you should be more social or you should be mixing more move around. I took a breath. I felt my feet on the ground and reminded myself that whatever I was feeling was fine. I could have anxiety and stay present. That process happened on repeat. Anxiety would kick in and I would take a breath and feel my feet on the ground. And it worked. I was more present and had more fun than I normally do.

Later that night decompressing after the events of the evening, I told my husband I'm onto something. This worked. I don't need to conquer my anxiety. I just need to live with it. But as I crawled into bed my mom chimed in. Why is it so hard for you to remember that the key is living with your anxiety. Why do you always feel like you have to conquer it? When are you going to get this message and accept it Then Luckily, I heard my biggest fan, oh, no sweet pea. This is the lesson you aren't broken. And you don't need to be conquering all that is wrong with you. It's hard. This is a lesson that is wired into your brain, and one that will take a lifetime to heal. And you're spiraling up, you keep getting it at another level. When I think about life lessons as spiraling up, rather than spiraling down into darkness, it gives a new perspective. While we do repeat lessons, we don't unlearn all we have implemented before we repeat the lesson one step up with a new perspective, new challenges and new information that we didn't have the last time the lesson came into our lives.

Change isn't one and done, it is on going, we might come back to the lesson. And it might feel like we are relearning the same lesson. But really, we are experiencing it at a new level with new insight, a new situation a new challenge. And then when we have that mastered, we will spiral up to another place. But I have found that there are techniques I can use to break the pattern of that downward spiral like I did at the barbecue, my favorite one get into your body.

Jenn: So we all have a body that tells us stuff, right? Like it tells you when it doesn't feel good. It tells you when you're hungry. It tells you and maybe you're a little bit tired, or when you have a little bit of tension. And then we have this brain that takes this information and decides what that means. So if we can start to get more in tune with the signals, when maybe they're not quite so loud. And we can start to play with what would happen to how can they change the signal a little bit? What happens if I change my position or I change the way I'm holding myself or I change the way I'm breathing all these things? How does that change my experience of what my brain is telling or what my body is telling me. So that's really, to me the mind body connection.

Nancy VO: This is Jenn Pilotti. She's a movement educator who writes books, leads workshops, and works one on one with clients of all ages to support their physical and mental well being.

Jenn Technically, I'm a personal trainer, I'm using air quotes here, my youngest client right now is 10. he happens to have ADD, my oldest client right now is 86. And she happens to have anxiety. Not that these are defining factors in any way, shape, or form. But I cared deeply about that integration between the mind and the body. And I care about how movement can support someone's mental well being as well as help create more embodiment,

Nancy VO: even though she's using air quotes, now, Jenn started out her career in the vein of a more traditional personal trainer,

Jenn: I was working with clients one on one as in a personal training gym setting at a country club. And I would watch people move and I would listen to what they would tell me about what they were experiencing their aches and their pains. And I also hear about their lives. And I'd be like, something is missing. There is something missing. I don't know what it is. But I feel like I'm not able to help these individuals as well as I as I felt like I should be able to like I wasn't sure what I was missing, but something was missing.

When I went back to graduate school I fell in love with neuromuscular education and motor control and and I started really starting to dive more deeply into why do things like felden craze really help some people? Why does strength training and CrossFit really help some people like what are these common denominators that I can extrapolate? And how can I make this accessible for the person that's in front of me and choose the tool that's, that's most right for the person that's in front of me based on what they have going on. I just I really got into the brain stuff and how it intersected with the body.

Nancy VO: A lot of Jenn's work involves retraining people to actually listen to the messages their bodies are sending them. And that can help with everything from anxiety to back pain.

Jenn: The way the nervous system works is that afferent branch that's getting all of that sensory information from your joints from the mechanical receptors in the skin from you know the ambient temperature outside all of that information, we tend to just ignore it.

Nancy VO: we dismiss the real and accurate information our bodies are sensing and pay more attention to the not so helpful messages we cook up in our heads. Like focusing on why do I hurt so much What's wrong with me? Instead of paying attention to the physical sensations our body is feeling

Jenn: I always think of like a picture, right? The way a lot of us look at things, it's very black and white. But when we start really paying attention to the information that we're getting, and we start, you know, playing with it, it becomes the color starts to fill in a little bit. You know, I'm trying to make the picture as bright as possible.

Nancy: Yeah, so that black and white thinking is very common. You know, one of the steps in how I work with in my system for working with clients is to slow down and get into your body. And I encourage people to do because I realized for me, like, I'll forget I have a body. Like, every time I do it, I'm like, Oh, yeah, look at that. There's this little thing down here.

Jenn: Yes, that's so informative. It has so much to tell you. Yes. That's one of the things that I try to share with people and clients often tell me they're like, this is so simple, but so like empowering. And that's that's the goal, right like to create autonomy to create self agency to create the ability to experience in a full way.

Nancy: So can you give an example of how it's been empowering, like how that has shown up.

Jenn: So an easy way is helping people feel their feats, and how it grounds how they ground them, and how that can change breathing patterns, neck pain, what they're experiencing in the here and now and anxiety, the feet, actually, there's a huge connection. And the research actually shows this between ends, anxiety and balance. So for instance, right now, if you're seated in a chair, if you start to press your feet into the floor, and you think about pressing your feet into the floor in such a way that you feel the middle of your heel. And then you start to see if you can reach the outside of the foot really long. So it's making, it's like you're making the outside edge of the footings, long as you can. And then while you're doing that, imagine that you're putting weight evenly across the balls of your feet. And you press those parts of your foot down quite a lot on both feet, and you start pressing so much that like you're about to stand up, but you're not going to actually stand up, you're just gonna get that sense, just hang up there, and then relax. And like for you, for instance, I watched you were holding a bit of tension through your jaw. As soon as I took you into your feet, the tension through your jaw, decreased, right? So

Nancy: that is crazy. I didn't even know I had tension in my jaw. Like I had no clue.

Jenn: Because this is what I do for a living and I can see your face, I can see I could see I'm like, oh, and as soon as I cued the feet.

Nancy: That's crazy.

Jenn: So that's an example. And you probably felt a little different, right? When you pressed your feet.

Nancy: Yeah, yeah. Well, cuz then cuz I was all I was more noticing, like, Oh, I could feel it in my butt and my hips, you know, like all these other muscles engaged.

Jenn: Exactly. So what that does, which is really cool, is it creates body awareness, which is really powerful for your brain. It gives your brain information about where your limbs are located in space, which creates a sense of safety. Something as simple as that, like being able to feel the feet being able to feel there's three arches in your foot, that will change a person's entire nervous system, you'll see them drop from this pretty sympathetic state to more of a balanced state between the parasympathetic and the sympathetic. So basically, between your you know, between your chillout state and your fight or flight state,

Nancy: so is it that I can help my anxiety by building better balance. And if I'm feeling anxious, I can start feeling my feet, and that it's like it's helping long term and short term.

Jenn: What's really cool is there's a correlation between building strength and a decrease in anxiety symptoms. So as you were saying with the short term, right, like getting someone to feel their feet, that's a very short term fix. And that's great, because it works really well. It's like, Okay, cool. I have something that routes me right now. brings me back from my brain into my body and into this place, like what am I standing on? What am I experiencing. But then as you build strength, which is a long term thing, you're going to feel even more grounded through your feet, because strength does that which is awesome. And it also gives you a sense of resilience, physically, which carries over into how you feel emotionally.

Like if you stop worrying so much about like, what's going on physically, and worry about again, how's this making me feel, then the movement choices they make can be much more intuitive. They start to trust themselves so much more. I had one client Tell me Just recently, she said the biggest gift you've given me she's worked with me for a long time. She has chronic low back pain is you've taught me that. It's okay if I change my position if I don't feel good. And I tried to do the exercise a different way. And she said, and 96% of the time, I can find a way to do it where it doesn't hurt. And so I can keep moving, which is amazing. But I don't have to necessarily do it this one rigid, right by.

Nancy: So what would you say is the most important fundamental thing to understand about mind body awareness?

Jenn: I would say that it's being able to feel your body and where it's located in space. And that's all the parts of itself. Now, the easiest way to think of this is whatever's connected to something, if you can figure out how to feel that thing that is connected to something, and by something, I mean, something external. So like sitting in a chair, for instance, you've got your feet connected to the floor, but you also have your pelvis connected to the chair.

So these are the things that you'd be like, oh, cool, can I feel my pelvis? And you're rocking a little bit, which is great. Can I feel my pelvis connected to the chair? Can I feel my feet connected to the ground? And what's amazing about that is even just starting to play with these simple ideas of, can I feel when my hand is connected to my phone? How does that feel? And maybe you'll start to realize maybe I don't like how that feels. But again, this gives us information about what we need, you start to play with again. What do I What do I feel? And what is that telling me. And this can help with so many things, it's just so cool. It's very, very, very, very cool.

Nancy: That sense of play, and really grounding yourself in the moment, by paying attention to what's going on inside and outside of your body is super important in Jenn's work, it can really help to snap you out of that feeling that you're circling the drain with your anxious thoughts,

Jenn: maybe your things going for walk right, say okay, I'm going to try and carve out 10 minutes to try and walk a little bit differently. And that could mean a lot of things you could try to play with taking slightly bigger steps, picking a slightly smaller steps, paying attention to how your foot lands on the ground. You know, just give yourself permission to start to notice. And if something feels kind of funky, give yourself permission to be like, Okay, well what happens if I play with this a different way? You know, what happens if I play with letting my arm swing a little more? How does that feel? What happens if I feel with letting my breastbone rotate a little more? How does that feel? You know, just give yourself permission to tune into different aspects of your body. Maybe once you've never even thought about give yourself permission to be a little little, you know, curious with it.

Nancy: It can be easy to get stuck in that cycle of circling your thoughts in a way that doesn't feel very good. But like Jenn is quick to remind me circling and rotating is actually a normal and fundamental way that our bodies move through space, and exist in the world.

Jenn: The way we move is through rotations. Even like the knee, which we think of as a hinge joint, if you really look at how the movement of walking takes place, it's a series of rotations. So spiraling is huge in just movement. And then if you look at how do you get someone to move efficiently into move? Well, well, the easiest way to do that is to move in a rotational way. So you create little rotations, maybe and sometimes bigger rotations.

There was this crazy study I read a few years ago, where they tried to figure out the best way to train the muscles on the outside of the butt, your glute medius. For those of you that pay attention to that type of thing. It was a very small study, but they actually found that walking around in a circle activated that muscle more than any of the little gym exercises. Because our body is designed to be able to move in a lot of different directions in spiral. spiraling is how we move, walking in circles as a way to train our muscles and our brains?

Nancy VO: Hmm. Now that’s an interesting idea.

Nancy Tape: Okay, so I am on my way to the labyrinth. It's early in the morning on a hot day in Ohio and I'm driving to a labyrinth outside of a local church to put some of Jen's advice to the test. In case you're not familiar, a labyrinth is like a big hedge maze with passages that circle around each other until they arrive at the center. I'm going to circle through the labyrinth try to really get into my body and see what happens. So the labyrinth is at a church near our home. It's a couple miles from our house called St. Alban's and it's actually my husband's childhood church where he went to his family was a member so they have a labyrinth out front and I'm gonna walk and see. See what happens. See what magic happens. You know always hoping for a little miracle with this stuff. Okay, there it is. Turn around. Okay.

The front says as you enter, walk in love at the center, be still and know that I am God and when you return, Go in peace. Okay, so I'm going to get in my body and feel my feet. It's been a stressful week. So I'm a little hopeful that this will change my mindset is a soupy day in Ohio super humid and wet but here we go. Okay.

Deep breaths

it's interesting how much I keep asking myself if I'm doing it right. That is a plague of my existence. doing it right. And it's a path you can't do it wrong.

The rhythm of it keeps you present.

Okay, I'm coming to the end.

In the center

it is been rainy here a lot and there's blue sky trying to come through. As you enter walk in love Ephesians 5:2 at the center. Be still and know that I am God. Psalm 46:10. And when you return Go in peace. So I'm back in the car. I wanted to record thoughts

doing that made me cry.

As much as I that's why I got silent.

Nancy Tape: I think the rhythm of following the path and not having to pay attention anything but the path and my body. Just kind of let your mind go. It was it was meditative. I guess that's the word. And I noticed feeling is coming up and typical for me. I was like, No, no, no, no, no. But I just let the tears come. And I could feel in my body just my legs and back there was a just a different presence than just walking and noticing. I know that meditation is hard for me. Just sitting that's why these walking meditations are nice because you're moving. And your body's thinking about that. But it's still I noticed myself like speeding up when the tears came and trying to get out of it. And am I almost done is this almost over. It's a very pretty small labyrinth. And I didn't move super slow through it just because that's who I am. So filled in my feet, reminding myself to keep coming back to that and keep coming back to my breath. That was hard. To do to keep coming back to my breath because I kept getting teary, but I feel more relaxed, I feel more present, I feel more centered after doing that, which is,which is awesome. It's a good way to start the day. Anyway, those are my thoughts from walking the labyrinth.

Nancy VO: My monger loves to think in black and white and be very Doomsday about the fact that I'm relearning a lesson. But like I figured out in the labyrinth, moving in circles can actually be healing. It can unlock deep feelings and give us new ways of looking at our problems. Just as a child who's learning to walk falls, so do we as adults, we lose our balance, we run into a new obstacle. But that doesn't mean we forgot all we knew before. Yes, this idea of living with anxiety rather than conquering it is an old insight. But it's one I keep practicing. I keep fine tuning and tapping into new ways to approach the constant curveballs and spirals that life throws at me. And each time I do, I learned something new.

That's it for this week. Our next episode is our last episode of the season. Can you believe it? We've come a long way on our journey to self loyalty and we're gonna wrap things up by talking to an old friend of the show, and an expert in self compassion, my friend, Reverend Gary Ritz. That's next time on the happier approach.

The happier approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by pod five and epidemic sound.

For more episodes to get in touch or to order a copy of my book, happier approach. You can visit live dash happier.com and if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes. It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Jenn Pilotti for speaking with us for this episode. You can find more information about Jenn sign up for her workshops in order her book, body mind movement and evidence based approach to mindful movement at Gen Pilates calm. That's Jenn with two ends P-I-L-O-T-T-I. The happier approach Are we back with another episode in two weeks Take care, until then.

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Season 2 Episode 6: Anti-Gratitude

In this episode, we tackle a subject that Nancy has VERY strong opinions about. Gratitude.

In this episode, we tackle a subject that Nancy has VERY strong opinions about. Gratitude. Sometimes it seems like people use the idea of gratitude as a way to wipe away the pains and sorrows of life. But that isn't very effective, and can end up making us feel worse. Nancy talks to journalist and author Rob Walker about how we can use the art of noticing the everyday as a way to tap into a deeper sense of gratitude for the world around us. Rob shares some tips, prompts, and suggestions for using simple attention as an alternative to the stale notion of gratitude. Listen to the end for some excellent dog panting sounds!

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to hold on to our power of attention in everyday life.

• How to tap into and notice the world around us to create an authentic sense of gratitude.

• Tips, prompts, and tricks for sparking creativity through attention.

• Resources and advice from Rob Walker

Resources mentioned:

• Go to robwalker.net to learn more about Rob and order his book.

• Subscribe to The Art of Noticing newsletter: https://robwalker.substack.com/

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Intro

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it's me, Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

I have one question for you today, what the f is gratitude?! Not to get all Webster's dictionary on you. But the actual definition of gratitude is: “the quality of being thankful, readiness to show appreciation for and to return kindness.” So on one hand, gratitude is great. Yes, we should always appreciate what we have. But what does gratitude really mean in practice? A lot of the time, it's a word that's tossed around as a solution to all our problems. We treat gratitude, like it's a pill we can take to wipe away pain. But sometimes being told that I should be thankful during a difficult moment actually makes me feel worse. And that can be more harmful than helpful.

I’m sitting at the crowded bar, wine glass in hand, enjoying happy hour with a friend. I've spent the weekend with my dad, who's dealing with Parkinson's with dementia. And it's been a tough weekend. I'm sharing the experience with my friend while sitting at the bar. I say, “It's just so hard watching dad struggling with dementia. I mean, it is the hardest thing I've ever faced.” She is quick to reply with, “Oh, I'm so sorry.” Quickly following up with, well, maybe it would be helpful to find the gratitude here. And then she went on to list all the things I had to be grateful for. My dad had lived a good life and was in his late 70s, we had a good relationship. And at least he knew who I was. I'm sitting there stunned. I take a sip of wine and try to gather myself.

My first thought of Wait a minute, I just shared something really hard with you, and you're playing the gratitude card!? is swiftly followed by my monger who pops in for an appearance. “She is right, you should be grateful. Quit your whining and remember how blessed you are.” I quickly changed the subject, recognizing immediately that she just can't go there with this topic. feelings of hopelessness and guilt wash over me, my takeaway, don't share hard moments with friends at happy hour.

In moments like that, gratitude can be tricky. Gratitude should help us gain perspective in a positive way. It shouldn't be a quick fix to a bad mood, or a way of wiping away our pain and suffering. So sometimes with gratitude, it's more about going deeper, taking the time to notice what's around you and let it sink in. Rather than making gratitude a balm for your bad days. And wouldn’t you know, incorporating gratitude into your life in this holistic helpful way, is actually a process that takes time, attention and effort.

Rob Walker: You're talking to me on a Friday and I have a thing with sort of with my wife, we call it flower Friday.

Nancy VO: This is Rob Walker, he is a journalist, columnist, writer and author and this exercise he's talking about, it's a lesson in attention.

Rob Walker: We sort of make it a point to try to notice flowers. Now that's a little corny.

But it's a real thing.

Nancy VO: Rob is literally an expert at noticing the little things. In fact, he wrote a book about it. It's called The Art of Noticing: 131 Ways to Spark Creativity, Find Inspiration and Discover Joy in the Everyday.

Rob Walker: There are 131 prompts, games, provocations, ideas, like I wanted it to be a book you could flip through, get inspired by and find things in it that you could really add to your life.

Nancy VO: Attention and curiosity originally drove Rob towards his career as a writer.

Rob Walker: I sort of discovered writing in the form of journalism. When I was in college, that was a sort of classic, no particular direction. 18 year old, my thinking at that point was like, well, Stephen King That looks like fun. Maybe I could be Stephen King. I very much randomly stumbled on the student newspaper, I stumbled across literally a flyer, they were looking for record reviewers. And I went and screwed up my courage and applied. I consider it very fortunate because I knew the minute that I began writing in the context of journalism, nonfiction writing, I knew this is what I wanted to do. And I consider that very rare fortune. I was very shy. So journalism gave me a framework for dealing with the world. Journalism is a field that rewards curiosity that sort of justifies curiosity. I was sort of maybe not interested in what the teacher was saying and more interested in you know, why is the room laid out this way? Or what kind of bird is that out the window, you know, this kind of thing. And journalism actually rewards that It rewards the idea of noticing things that other people aren't paying attention to and

Sometimes even the idea of paying attention to what you're not supposed to pay attention to.

The endless curiosity thing is still the driver. That's the one through line to all of this.

Nancy: So talking about the curiosity and noticing what excites you about right now about the everyday world around you? What are some of your favorite details to notice like in the world?

When you're allowed to go to new places, again, I advise people to ask about the weirdest thing in the room.

Music

Because this is always what gets the best stories. Like if you go to someone's house, and you're looking at the mantel, and like, you know, there's a family photo, there's, um, obviously beautiful vase or something that's like, Oh, well, that's a collectible. And then there's some weird tchotchkes. And it's like, why would you have that, and usually you people just ignore that. And in fact, if anything, they'll say, Wow, that's a beautiful vase. But I recommend the opposite, which is like, ask about that weird thing, because there's a reason that it's there.

And this works in restaurants and places like that, to where you get the best stories by asking about the things that don't seem to belong. And people appreciate those things being modern society wants your attention, there's a huge war on to steal your attention and direct you into looking at a certain thing at a certain time and a huge amount of our waking life now, and especially with these phones that you and I are both holding right now. It's not just advertisers vying for your attention. It's everyone you're connected with on social media. I don't want to make it sound like it's a conspiracy or like a horrible Black Mirror situation necessarily. But it is the function of the way we live. I call it the war for attention. And I felt it is very important to hold on to your attention to be able to direct your attention where you want it to.

Music out

You're never going to discover anything new if you don't put yourself in unexpected situations. And that means truly unexpected situations. That means when you are in a place that you're not interested in, I'm particularly a fan of taking of making it a point to take a walk.

Music

I was in I guess, Santa Clara or someplace like that, where it was not really a pedestrian friendly situation at the hotel. And there was a whole foods, I wanted to get the snack and it was a

five minute Uber ride or a 25 minute walk through kind of not super pedestrian friendly territory. But I did it anyway. And I actually ended up passing this restaurant that I never would have seen and I ended up having dinner that night, you discover things, it expands the way you're experiencing the world. Because you're not just like shuttling from one place to another in these hermetically sealed efficiency machines all the time, giving yourself a chance to be surprised. I think it's one of the most valuable things you can do.

Music out

Rob Walker: The things that you notice that other people don't notice are what make you an individual. And they are the basis of really all great art, and all great entrepreneurial ism, there is no being an entrepreneur, without spotting an opportunity that other people have missed. You can't be a successful entrepreneur by saying like, Oh, well, this category is really successful and dominated by a lot of people who are already buying and selling it all do that too, that you have to use your powers of attention and noticing to zone in on what other people are missing and to believe in it. Believe in your own vision and your own point of view.

I regularly give the assignment of find something to complain about. A lot of what entrepreneurs noticed that other people miss is problems, is something that's wrong, something that needs fixing. Why isn't anyone fix this? Here in New Orleans, there's tons of potholes, we have terrible street conditions in New Orleans. There's an Instagram feed, whose name I can't repeat in good company, but it's basically look at this terrible bottle. So it's documenting these things with sense of humor, it's pointing out problems and essentially could say like, well, they're just complaining, but they're complaining in a delightful way. And I think that that's legitimate, and I think that that's valuable. That's just a different way of looking at the world and I would argue a different form of being productive

Nancy: I have a pretty strong stance on gratitude in the sense of that a lot of the people in my world in my, a lot of the listeners, a lot of my clients have a I should be grateful belief rather than so they will whatever they're experiencing the pile on top gratitude to make themselves feel better because they should be happy all the time. but even the find something to complain about still like at its core? There's some gratitude in there. I think what I like about the find something to complain about, it is really observing the world and saying, this could be better.

I think someone that came in with the positive thinking bent or super grateful would be like, Oh, no, no, we need to be grateful for the fact that we have streets to begin with, you know.

And that's where we get in trouble, I think is we just get too stuck in that positive bent rather than really noticing there could be change here.

That's the problem in my mind with gratitude. Is that you know, it's very much that idea of it. It keeps us stuck.

Rob Walker: Yeah, exactly that we just be grateful that we have streets until eventually the streets would crumble into nothing and we would not have streets. And then I guess we'd be grateful that we have kind of clearings that we can drive on still sort of a little bit, there's actually a lot of discourse around gratitude that I think does lead people to put it on their list of like, Today, I'll be grateful for something. And there's a kind of roundness to it, that is just like another box to tick off. So I heard someone recently used the word, so I'm not making this up. But I can't credit it because I can't remember where exactly it came from. But I'm fascinated with it. Use the word savor.

Music

So this is a variation about being grateful for everyday things. Like let's say, you walk outside to get the mail, your brief break from the day, and it's blue sky, you know, sometimes you go outside and it's, you don't have no idea what's going on. Outside you go. It's like, oh, wow, it's actually a nice day. So is to savor that. And so this is a form of gratitude. The challenge is to actually pause and experience that's why I like the word savor because it reminds you of like, when you're eating something and you're like, you know, you kind of actually slow down and actually let the food rest in your mouth so you can savor it, as opposed to just swallowing it so you can get on to the next thing, that attitude, if you can apply that to whatever, maybe it's something that your dog does, like savor your dogs, that sounds maybe serving but you know, or your children or your spouse, just really have gratitude in the moment for the small things. Or maybe it's just some objects that you own. That's like, you know, this is a really good hedge trimmer or whatever. That is a slightly different angle on the challenge of gratitude. I think that maybe invites you back into the world and takes it out of this thing of being another, you know, to do list.

Music out

Rob Walker: This is why I tried to de mystify the word not demystified. But de-fang, the word complain. And this sounds funny, but complaining gets a bad rap.

Oh, no one likes a complainer. No one likes a critic. But you know what, we need critics. Without critics, there's no progress. So people who say critics are no good, usually just don't want to hear criticism. And that's fine. Sometimes we have to shrug off criticism. But let's not pretend that there's no role in that. And there is gratitude built in the critic the complainer is trying to build a better world ultimately. And that is an act that is wrapped up in gratitude for how things could be.

Nancy: I know for me this this art of noticing and slowing down and even being able to focus on you know, even on the dog walks, it isn't natural. It's going against my programming of get it done, Hustle, Hustle, Hustle, keep pushing forward be as productive as possible.

Rob Walker: Of course, I struggle with it. I think everyone does. And I think there are even evolutionary reasons for you know, we're in we're built to seek out threats and rewards. If you leave this interview with just one thought it is please stay off your phone while you're walking, be with your dog while you're walking your dog, your dogs not going to be there forever. Take those moments. It's a great move to try to figure out what is your dog paying attention to and you know, zero in on that, like, what's the smell or he or she smelling were they looking at were they hearing it's kind of using that mindset like adding this to the menu of things that you need to get done or that you find value in and my hope is that there's a sort of degree of gateway drug ness to this that once you have the experience of, you know, maybe having an unexpected epiphany that you will find value in it.

Nancy: Okay, buddy.

Leash jingling

Let's get the leash moving.

Let's do it. Let's do it. Do it. Here we go.

Door opening, birds chirping

Okay, so it is crack o'clock early in the morning Waterston. I are headed out for our walk, fellow goofy talking into my phone. But here we go. We're going to be noticing I'm going to try to notice whatever Waterson follows. We have lots of bunnies around here. So still

I'm going to be doing a lot of bunny noticing.

But it is a beautiful, sunny cool morning here in Ohio.

He's all weirded out because I keep looking at everything he's looking at.

I always try to be really aware in our walks, just bringing my attention to looking around and not usually on our walks, going through my to do lists and figuring out my plan for the day.

So trying to shut that off and just be present is different.

And then the number of times I have to bring myself back to now we're noticing we're just noticing instead of letting my mind go into the to do list and all that stuff, this is a fascinating our squirrel in the mind is.

The other thing I wanted to notice was red, because that is something that stands out easily so for as we head towards Main Street, there's red umbrellas and red stop signs red stoplights.

Even the library has windows or red.

Okay, let's cross the street.

Red and a basketball hoop, red tail lights.

There red in the bricks.

The red of Watterson’s tongue.

In the red leaves, the red trees, the trees look red, but that just the leaves are red.

Now my brain is just constantly scanning for red, red, red, red, red, which is very different than how I normally do a walk.

But the red really causes me my brain to hook into something different. Because I can look for now when I see something red, I'm like, oh red, red, as opposed to, as I said, going through the to do list so it gives my brain something to do which I think is helpful.

But even like noticing the red American flag, the red and the signs, it is fascinating to me how the more I do this, the more I notice.

And it is a form of gratitude, I think gets you in that mindset of gratitude. Because you're just slowing everything down. You know that we can take this walk every morning through this beautiful space and be safe and see other friendly people and just it's makes me very grateful.

So I do think that this is what I love about this is what I believe gratitude is going deep and slowing everything down and being able to appreciate what it is you have.

Rather than it being just something I tell myself to pull myself out of a bad mood. still finding the red in the no parking signs the red bricks of the capital stadium.

Now we are headed down the alley towards our home headed back. Noticing the red and someone painted their garage door read the people door. That was a red car.

My mom and some of the family members always say that the cardinal which is red is the state bird of Ohio. And we have a lot of them around here. And mom will always say whenever she sees a cardinal that it's a dad there's there's a belief that people who have passed inhabit

The Cardinal I don't know where that came from.

For a long time when I was doing these walks, I would hear what I now know is a pigeon or a dove would hear that and think of the sound would remind me of my home. My parents home and certainly my dad. And so that sound would always bring him alive to me. And I love it when we're walking the dog. I haven't heard one this morning, but I love it when I am walking the Dog and I hear that sound because it makes me think of him.

Okay, we're round on the corner. Here we go. Waterson

Here we go. finish everything up.

We did it. Thanks for going on our walk with us.

You ready ready.

Nancy VO: As I sunk into the art of noticing on my walk with Watterson and went deeper with my gratitude, I was able to relax and really savor that cool July morning, while holding the memory of my dad with me. That is the power of gratitude. It's the same with that story I told earlier about sharing my heart experiences with my dad in his dementia with my friend at the bar. Despite that negative experience, I was able to find gratitude in the little moments with him. I can slow myself down and notice moments of connection, soaking up one of his hugs, savoring a voicemail message he left, even now paying attention to the Cardinals and mourning doves on my morning walk, noticing him and the gifts he gave me.

Theme music

That's it for this week. Next time we're going to talk about spiraling but not exactly in the way you might think. We'll talk to an expert on the mind body connection about getting out of our heads and into our bodies. And I'll be taking a special trip to a place where meditation and movement intertwine. That's next time on the happier approach.

The happier approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith, music provided by pod five and epidemic sound. And if you'd like the show, leave us a review on iTunes. It actually helps us out a lot Special thanks to rob Walker for speaking with us for this episode. You can find more information about Rob, order his book and subscribe to his newsletter where he shares prompts, icebreakers and conversations for incorporating the art of noticing into your everyday life at Rob Walker dot net.

The happier approach we'll be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care until then.

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Season 2 Episode 5: All the Feels

In this episode, we learn all about how feelings show up in our brains and in our bodies, and how they can affect the way we interact with the world around us

In this episode, we learn all about feelings. How they show up in our brains and in our bodies, and how they can affect the way we interact with the world around us. Nancy tells us about trying to conquer her Monger during a stressful time, and how feeling her emotions in her body and naming them, helped her to feel better in the moment. We also hear from science journalist and health advocate Donna Jackson Nakazawa who explains to us from a scientific perspective what a feeling actually is, and how it affects our bodies over the course of our lives. She gives us some tips for understanding our emotions and how our health can be affected by trauma.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How feelings affect our physical and mental health.

• How a feeling is biologically created.

• How trauma affects our emotional and physical state

• Resources and advice from Donna Jackson Nakazawa.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to donnajacksonnakazawa.com to order Donna's books and courses.

• Follow Donna on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter.

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Zip up your wetsuit, because in today’s episode we’re diving straight into the Emotion Ocean. This episode is all about feelings. You know, those pesky little things that tend to wash over us at what seems like exactly the wrong moment? Sometimes it can seem like taking the time to understand and acknowledge our feelings is just a big road block on our journey to self-loyalty.

Well, it turns out that feelings are more than little cartoon thought bubbles, inconveniently popping up over our heads. And just swatting at them won’t make them go away. Feelings are actually connected to what’s going on with our physical bodies, and they can have a HUGE impact on our physical as well as our mental health.

But, I didn’t always know that.

A few years ago. I was driving to work. As the world zoomed by out my window, I could feel my anxiety rising. My thoughts were jumping all over the place, my neck was throbbing and my hands were sweating.

In an attempt to calm myself, I wanted to get to the WHY. Why am I so stressed? So I asked myself, "What is going on? Why are you so stressed!?" But rather than approaching this stressed feeling with a loving curiosity, my Monger took over. The question became, "EXPLAIN YOURSELF, SOLDIER!!" WHY ARE YOU SO STRESSED?"

So like a good soldier, I named all the things that were stressing me out: work, my Dad’s parkinsons, my husbands' epilepsy, a presentation I had coming up.

This is usually how the game goes—my Monger asks me to justify my stress, and I list off my stresses with an air of indifference as if I was reciting a grocery list. I always lose the game to the Monger because her message always is: you SHOULD

be able to handle it, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE has it worse than you, and you are a wimp who can't handle any stress.

But sitting at the traffic light wrapped in the safety of my car I let myself cry. I put my hands over my heart and named what was under all that stress, what I was feeling: sad, overwhelmed, and scared.

My body relaxed, and as I pulled into my office parking lot, I thought to myself: I’ve turned a corner with this whole anxiety thing...

Music

Fast forward to this past week. Again my anxiety was high, I was worrying about a project for work, obsessing about a conversation I had had with a friend, and my arthritis was flaring. Last night as I was cooking dinner, I thought to myself once again: Why are you so stressed?

I recited to myself: Well I am behind on a project at work. I ran out of time again! I think I said the wrong thing to Sandy today and my arthritis is killing me. It just sucks so bad. All with the emotional equivalent of reading a grocery list.

And then there was the Monger's voice: "You are fine. You are so privileged. Think of all the people out there who are hurting, and you are barely holding it together because of a few stressors—give me a break."

I had been playing this familiar game most of the week. My anxiety is high—my Monger belittles me—I try to justify it by naming all my stressors—she belittles me more. And round and round we go.

I’ve been playing this game for so long it’s habitual. It is like putting on an old itchy sweater.

I want to say that I recognized the game and BAMMO. I practiced acknowledging my feelings, and all was well.

But that isn't what happened. My Monger won last night just as she had all week.

Bird chirping sfx

And then this morning, walking the dog in the cool crisp air, smelling the flowers and watching Watterson have the joy only a dog can feel early in the morning, I thought to myself: You suck.

You are a mess. You are never going to get this project done at work. You are so behind and you are so lazy if you moved your body more you wouldn’t hurt so much!

My Monger thrives on these negative emotions. And it’s so easy to get stuck there. To feed into that negativity when I’m feeling down on myself. It’s a cycle. I feel bad, the monger pops up, I feel worse. Both mentally AND physically. How do we break that cycle once and for all? It turns out, it has A LOT to do with the story we tell ourselves about how we’re feeling.

ACT II: Donna Jackons-Nakazawa

Donna Jackson-Nakazawa:

we're always searching for a place where our voice and our essence can come to be to its true fruition. And that's a lifelong path.

Nancy VO: This is Donna Jackson-Nakazawa. She's a science journalist, health advocate, and author of six-- soon to be seven-- books that probe at the connection between science, journalism, and health.

Donna Jackson-Nakazawa: I delve into the science behind

the mind body connection and do a deep dive into the science while also intersecting it with what we know about the deepest layers of our human heart and our human existence

Nancy VO: Donna’s journey down this path started early.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa:I grew up in a family of Newspaper Publishers, grew up kind of running around the Annapolis Gazette, the evening Capitol at the time in Annapolis. My father was the editor and my family ran the paper and I just grew up running around with you know, all men At that point, a couple of female reporters and we would go and visit the presses all the time. And guys would give me little bits of unfortunately, lead type.

And I could grab my own words, and you'd go in there be all these little wooden boxes, and you could pick your words, and they’d print little papers for me.

My mother's family were a group of well educated and well known scientists and her father had been one of the founding scientists at the National Institutes of Health. So depending on which side of my family I was with, there were all these extremely smart people talking about, you know, chemistry and intersections of biology with chemistry and, and then on the other side, people were running around reporting and my father was a social activist. We had Vietnam vets come and sitting at our kitchen table. So I think that that marriage of science, public service, and communication was just very strong in me.

Nancy VO: But… things weren’t always easy for Donna growing up.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: Well, in that narrative, which I made sound so pretty and, and easy, um, there was a lot of discomfort, a lot of tragedy and a lot of a lot of hardship and a lot of adversity.

When I was 12, my dad who had a series of autoimmune issues, went in for a very minor surgery and he died. And so he never came home from that surgery. And we were truly aligned as writers and and thinkers, and life changed completely for us. My father's family without going too much into it had a lot of vested interest in the financial aspects of newspapers and printing presses. And so we were kind of ousted from that family. everything changed from you know, a family that would be outside and having crab feast on the water and sailing on the weekends. And really kind of a charmed life. To really struggling.

Nancy VO: All of that emotional stress started manifesting for Donna in a physical way.

Donna Jackson-Nakazawa: I was 14. And you know, at that time, we didn't understand the link between trauma and and our immune system. We just had no clue. But I started fainting and passing out.

By the time I was in my early 20s, I was really passing out on my college campus. In my 20s, I started having seizures, I ended up having a pacemaker put in for heart block and vasovagal syncope so and then I began to develop a series of autoimmune diseases. Thyroiditis, I had Guillain Barre syndrome got better than I got it again. And a couple of other autoimmune diseases. I don't like to list them all because it just makes me, you know, listing diagnoses kind of perks up my immune system in a way I don't like.

Nancy VO: Because of her background in science journalism, Donna saw a connection between the negative emotional stressors and traumas she’d experienced, and her autoimmune issues.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: The immune system is kind of like a barrel, right, you can put so much in it. But then there can be that last drop

Music

And the water at the top of the barrel spills over. And so we all are born with different barrels, right. And we could call that lower level of water, genetic predisposition, genetic predisposition, we certainly have autoimmune disease in my family, we can call a layer of water a huge, a huge part of the water that fills the barrel, our experiences, our traumatic experiences, whatever it is, over time that's picked up a sense of unsafety in us is going to pick up our immune system. So unpredictable chronic stress growing up that threat set that threat response that gets set up in childhood, for good or for ill, over time, the exposure to chronic unpredictable stress and trauma in childhood actually turns on genes that up the stress threat response. Over time, we can see in kids who experienced adversity when they were young, that the genes that oversee the stress response and should turn it on and off appropriately, they get stuck in the on position, you might think of it kind of like a dimmer switch in the dining room, you know, where you can turn that dimmer switch to high and low light shine higher.

So we want with the stress threat response, we want to be able to respond to things that are scary appropriately. And then the dimmer switch turns off. That's how the stress response is supposed to work as nature intended. But in kids and teens who grow up with chronic unpredictable stress, and many different types of adversity, from poverty to a parent with a mental health disorder to losing a parent, they all have in common, putting a child in a state of not knowing what's coming in the next moment or the next moment or the next moment. And when that happens, it signals the immune system to perk up and it causes these epigenetic shifts to genes that oversee the stress response. So this fills water in the barrel, right? That just water goes higher.

Our brain and body are talking 24 seven, Are you safe or not safe? And if the answer is you're not safe, and the reason is emotional, our brain doesn't distinguish between that as a reason to respond on an immune level, from whether or not that hit is a physical head of physical trauma or an infection or exposure to a toxic chemical.

Music out

Nancy TAPE:

Is it true that according to in our brain stress is stress, emotional, physical, biological, it's, it's all the same, but we as humans have labeled it as something different?

Music

Donna TAPE

To speak to that I have to take you all the way back 300 years if you want to want to go that far with me to when we can thank early philosophers

Descartes for the idea of Mind Body dualism that the body and the mind function as church and state entities. Early anatomist agreed with him. When they began to go in and look at the body, they found two things which convinced them that the mind and body were not connected. And that is a, constellation of dense red blood cells at the base of the brain called the blood brain barrier. And it was thought that because of this dense constellation of cells, it was nature's way of preventing the immune system in the body, from communicating with the brain in any way, immune cells and signals couldn't get through. And then of course, although we know that our body is this immunological organ, all of this thinking led to the idea that the brain was categorically what we call immune privilege. If you are hanging a picture in your house, and you hit your thumb by mistake, it's gonna get red, hot, painful and swollen. That's inflammation. That's literally how we define inflammation, red hot, painful and swollen.

However, early anatomist thought well, the brain can't be ruled by the immune system, it can't be talking to the immune system, it must be immune privileged, because it has this hard cap on top of it, right, it has a skull, unlike any other part of the body. So if the brain we're going to be ruled by the immune system, it must have the power to swell and recede, swell and receive like every other organ in the body. But because of the skull, anatomist and philosophers who agreed that the brain was immune privileged.

100 years ago, Spanish neuroscientists found they were looking at cells other than neurons in the brain. So neurons, of course, fire and wire together, our thought patterns, our neural neural pathways, our neural circuitry, we can think of neurons which are the flashy darlings of the neuroscience research world.

Beat

But about 100 years ago, researchers started looking at four glial cells in the brain, they're non neuronal cells, one of them is called micro glia. And these little glial cells make up almost 10% of our brain cells. But no one really knew what they did. And Spanish neuroscientists kind of looked at them shrugged and went, looks like they're just catering to neurons. They're like helping neurons and they're like a support system, kind of like an entourage around a movie star. But just seven years ago to kick butt female researchers at Harvard took a deeper look at these cells. They went way out on a limb, they really investigated them, and they found out that these little glial cells microglia are actually immune cells in the brain. And when they are activated by stressors, all the same stressors we talked about be that physical, infectious, chemical, or emotional stressors.

They morph and puff up into these big fat hairy Pac Man like cells, and they begin to munch and eat away at synapses. And researchers at Mount Sinai in New York, they found that these little glial cells actually break off their immune cells that break off from our white blood cells on the seventh or eighth day of gestation, in utero, and they rise up to the brain. And they rule brain immune health, they communicate 24 seven with the immune cells in our body, and all of science miss this for the past 100 years.

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Donna Jackson Nakazawa: None of this understanding that what affects us emotionally affects our brain connectivity, which affects our behavior, our feelings, our thoughts, and how we communicate with each other and our relationships and how well we feel about the world.

No one understood that this was being shaped by our intersection between ourselves, our brains and our environment, on an immune level on a brain immune level, until very, very recently.

Nancy TAPE:

So can you explain from a scientific perspective what a feeling is?

Music

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: Feelings and emotions arise in response to the world around us, and that in response to the thoughts that we're having. Anything that is happening without and within, that stirs, a strong response is going to lead to a feeling, but a feeling is also a physical thing.

Music

So again, we didn't use to understand that we thought of feeling within the mind. And everything else happened in the body. But a feeling is usually something that feels a little flooding, like flooding, or overwhelming, it fills us, it fills our mind. But what we forget is that it's also filling our body our body changes, it enters into a slightly different state, depending on the feeling if the feeling is happy, our body floods with oxytocin and other feel good hormones that are actually neuro protective.

A feeling that's negative is that fight flight freeze response, where the body goes into this escalation of stress hormones, and chemicals, and those flood the body. And that's why when you're really stressed, your heart rate goes higher. The little hair on your hands and arms stands up, you, your muscles get very tense to either fight or flee. Your blood all rushes to your arms and legs. It's why you get butterflies right? Because all the blood does it your body doesn't care about digestion, right? Then it just cares, do I have to run?

Or do I have to fight. So a feeling is emerging from this 24 seven dance we're doing with our environment and with ourselves in our own minds. So it's an intersection between a thought or an event and our mental state.

At the same time, it's a biophysical response because the two cannot be separated. And I think that's what's so important to understand about the biology of emotion is that your emotion, if we look at it through the lens of what we call psycho neuro immunology to break that great term down, psycho is psychology. neuro is neuroscience. immunology is your immune system. So a thought is really something that enters into this process of psychoneuroimmunology, the psychology of thinking, that neuro immune response in the brain and the immune response in the body you cannot separate those three ever, whether it's in response to an event outside you or within you, and all of them are biophysical responses that occur in the body, and over time begin to change the body and the brain.

Music out

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: We think that what's happening in our mind is not happening in our body, and what's happening in our bodies not happening in our mind. But in fact, our body and mind are two ways superhighway communicating 24 seven about one central question, Am I safe? Or am I not safe? That is your brains job, your brain is a detective. That's what your brain cares about. We are the drivers of this conversation that we're having with ourselves and with the world around us.

Nancy VO: That stressed out feeling I talked about in the story at the beginning of the episode? My body tensing up, my mind racing, my heart beating fast-- that physical response is all wrapped up in my emotional response. And THAT affects my immune response too. The arthritis flare I mentioned? It could have to do with the stress I was feeling.

Beat

Nancy VO: So now that we know that all of this is connected, the mind, body, and immune system-- how can we use that knowledge to feel better, physically and mentally?

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: So there are many things we can do to clean up our environment. We can add in, you know, meditation, and yoga and movement and dance and all kinds of different things. But we also have to begin to rewrite and re-narrate the way in which we talk to ourselves and the way in which we communicate with ourselves about the threats that exist in the world out there.

Nancy VO: That idea of telling the story of your stress to yourself differently is totally key. And Donna actually developed a course to do just that-- it’s called: Your Healing Narrative: Write-to-Heal With Neural Re-Narrating.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: We can literally rewire our conversation about how safe we are so that the immune system and the brain can calm down the immune system and the body can calm down and we can create a narrative that's literally on paper of our story, giving it meaning

Nancy VO: When we’re able to understand our story, and tell it to ourselves with more compassion, it can calm us down emotionally, which makes us feel better physically.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: I really developed this course, to help bring down that stress threat response, particularly for those with chronic conditions. And rewire some of those neural pathways, away from that heightened stress threat response, so that we can flourish even when we're dealing with adversity. There's a saying in the trauma community that trauma healing happens when we understand our story. And we give meaning to it, and we create meaning through it for who we are now and long into the future.

Offer yourself every opportunity to take this time to ask yourself about that intersection between the trauma that you faced in your life or now as an adult and your ability to go within and the narrative that you have of yourself and your own worth, and your ability to wake up on your own side.

Beat

Nancy VO: As I think we’ve established, it’s hard for me to give myself compassion. Especially when my Monger is running the show. What I didn’t realize before, is that by re-framing the conversation with myself kindly, I’m actually creating a new neural pathway. A new groove in my brain for my mind to trace, that might lead me to a less stressed-out place.

ACT III: Learning to re-narrate

Nancy VO: Where we last left off, I was walking my dog on a beautiful morning. But I was also wearing that itchy, uncomfortable Monger sweater. Letting my Monger berate me for an arthritis flare that was affecting my ability to get work done.

Music

Nancy VO: Suddenly, I thought: STOP. This it isn’t helping! I took a minute to ask myself: What are you feeling? Sad, scared, overwhelmed, tired, lost. I am feeling like a mess. Then, I got tears in my eyes. I immediately softened and I heard a quiet voice say: "It is ok to be a mess, Sweet pea. It is hard right now. You are doing just fine." And my whole body relaxed. I let the tears flow... And for the first time in a week, I took off the Monger sweater.

Music shift

This time—I didn't say to myself, Oh, you’ve turned a corner. I didn’t put that much pressure on myself. I recognize that as much as I want to put this anxiety stuff behind me, as much as I wish the minute I notice my anxiety, I could acknowledge my feelings and all would be well... that isn't the case. My Monger still wins for way longer than I want her to. I still play her silly games of justifying my stress. And I wear her sweater, which repels any messages of self-loyalty for days and weeks at a time.

The good news? I do have the antidote. I know acknowledging my feelings helps. I know that owning what I am experiencing and not trying to justify it or belittle it helps... It isn't instantaneous. It isn't magical. It takes WAY longer than I want it to.

My High Functioning Anxiety wants to find a hack, a system, a guaranteed 5 step plan. A plan that I will want to do and will only take a few minutes, and BAMMO I will be fixed. And it just isn't realistic. For now, dog walks, slowing down, acknowledging my feelings, talking to friends, being kind to myself, and having my own back. That’s what helps.

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Outro

That’s it for this week! In our next episode we’re going to tackle a mental health buzzword that can really tick me off: gratitude. What is it? Is it really realistic to try to feel it all the time? We’ll find out next time, on the Happier Approach.

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Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Donna Jackson-Nakazawa for speaking with us today. If you’re dealing with unresolved childhood trauma or feeling chronically stressed and want to learn how to rewire your brain for health and build resilience back into your life, you can find Donna’s books and courses at donna jackson nakazawa dot com. That’s Donna Jackson N-A-K-A-Z-A-W-A dot com.

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

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Season 2 Episode 4: The Biggest Fan

In this episode, we'll learn about the final character in the Happier Approach cast-- the wise, self-loyal, and sometimes elusive, Biggest Fan.

In this episode, we'll learn about the final character in the Happier Approach cast-- the wise, self-loyal, and sometimes elusive, Biggest Fan. The Biggest Fan always has your back, but that doesn't mean that listening to her is easy. Nancy shares her experience of learning to tap into the voice of the Biggest Fan through the encouragement of her husband Doug. Then, she speaks with actor Victor Warren, who embodies what it means to listen to that self-loyal voice in order to make your dreams come true. Finally, Nancy shares a conversation between herself and her husband Doug, where they talk about the true meaning of the Biggest Fan.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The Biggest Fan

• Tips for tapping into the self-loyal voice of the Biggest Fan.

• Insight from actor Victor Warren.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to www.victorwarren.com.

• Hire Victor to narrate your next audiobook at acx.com

• Follow Victor on Twitter at @victorwarren.

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Today is the day we get to meet the final, and my favorite, character of the Happier Approach cast. In our yellow brick road analogy she’s like Glenda the Good Witch. Kind, encouraging, and somewhat elusive. She’s not the type to let you off the hook. She’ll still make you walk all the way through the magical land of Oz just to learn that the key to happiness was clicking together the shoes you were wearing the whole time. But in the end you’ll be glad you went on that journey. I’m talking about my wise, self-loyal Biggest Fan.

Like I’ve mentioned in earlier episodes-- for a really long time I believed I needed the Monger to motivate me. I needed to be mean and belittling to myself or I wouldn’t accomplish any of my goals. But lucky for me my husband Doug has big Glenda the Good Witch vibes. When my Monger is running the show, he’s pretty much the real-world, human version of that kind, self-loyal voice of the Biggest Fan.

Music

ACT I: Nancy and Doug the Biggest Fan

Nancy VO: Doug and I were both in the basement. He was working and I was riding the exercise bike listening to a highly successful marketing expert talk about what I should be doing to market my business. Building a network, reaching out to people, and sharing what I do.

That would all require me to put myself out there and be a little more extroverted, which I hate. But by the time I hopped off the bike the marketing expert had motivated me. While I did some post-workout stretches on the floor, I shared what I’d learned with Doug. I even shared how I was going to make it happen.

Doug didn’t say much. He just nodded along and listened intently.

Music shift

After our chat, I walked the 2 flights back upstairs to start my day. By the time I’d showered and dressed and parked myself in front of my computer in my home office…my Monger had started talking.

You suck at networking—you are terrible at it. What do you have to share? Why would someone want to listen to you? You’ll seem so pushy and annoying like one of those horrible sales people. Ugh This is going to be awful.

As soon as my Monger was finished, my BFF stepped in: SCREW this “so-called” expert! This is just her opinion. What does she know?? Let’s just keep doing what we were doing. Passive marketing is where it is at.

By the time my Monger and BFF were done duking it out, I felt totally stuck. So I ventured back down the two flights of stairs to talk with Doug about it. I shared my doubts and the conversation in my head. And again, he quietly listened. Finally he said, “do you think networking more would help?” I said “yes”... and then started in again describing the debate between the Monger and the BFF.

He cut in and replied, “Stop. If you think it will help, then go figure out how to do it. You can totally do this. Just stop debating.” He gave me a hug and turned back to his work.

Beat

With Doug’s back to me, I stood there stunned and a little pissed off. I turned around and walked upstairs with tears in my eyes. That wasn’t the response I’d wanted! I didn’t want to take action—taking action was scary! I wanted to keep debating. I wanted more coddling. More Sweetie I know it is hard. And what I really wanted to hear was this: you don’t have to do this. You can stay small and still run a business. Basically, you don’t have to believe in yourself.

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Believing in myself is something I struggle with. And when I talk about self-loyalty this is it in a nutshell: being able to have your own back. Intrinsically. Knowing that you are enough and that you’ll find your way.

When I’m striking out on my own, putting myself out there and doing new things that scare me it’s particularly hard to tap into that self-loyal Biggest Fan voice. What if you fail my Monger says. What if everyone rejects you AND your ideas?

And that makes me wonder. If I have trouble pushing myself to face potential failure and rejection, how do people who have to face rejection over and over in order to do what they love motivate themselves to keep going. How do they learn to embody that wise voice of the Biggest Fan.

Victor

I've been acting since. since I was 10. My dad was a film composer. My mom was an opera singer. So, so they kind of so I guess that's where I got it.

Nancy VO: This is Victor Warren. He’s made a living as an actor, writer, and director since the early 90s.

Victor

I've done some directing and some writing, a bunch of screenplays playing the try to make movie thing in Hollywood for a while.

Nancy TAPE

What, what, what made you want to be an actor? Do you have like an acting origin story?

Music

Victor

I have a Charlie Chaplin cane that you can't see that's hanging on the wall right here that when I was I think around 10 my birthday gift was a Charlie Chaplin cane and a clown nose. And it was like, That's it. That's it. And you know, I mean, and I did my imitations of Charlie Chaplin.

Victor

My mom did operas at Cal State University Northridge.

Victor

and Dr. Scott, who was the head of the department was conducting the opera and wanted me to do it. And he asked me to do it and sing it in front of everybody. And I just laughed hysterically and couldn't and couldn't do it. And then a year later, they did an opera that was only like they're only like six rolls and it was a pants roll. That's normally paid by a woman, but my voice hadn't changed yet.

And I got to to be in that. I, I got cast and I learned the part and I played it. And I was with these college students, you know, that went on to sing at the Met and but Living in that world where you know I just, I loved the world of it.

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Victor

I'm an artist. So I want to through whatever story or medium I'm doing, I want to affect someone with the possibility of hope and change in their own lives. Which leads me I mean, granted, I'll take a job, and I will be a serial killer, you know, I'll do whatever needs to be done. But in the bottom line, I want to reflect back to somebody who's engaged in it.

Nancy VO: But being an artist and an actor means Victor’s had to deal with rejection A LOT. He is constantly putting himself out there. It’s basically a part of his job.

General Hospital theme

Victor

I did a small reoccurring on Heneral hospital for a little bit, which was great. It was great driving on a lot and Mr. Warren Right this way. And, and, and it with soap operas, you basically get somebody else's dressing room was not working. So I had somebody else's big dressing room and and I thought, Oh, yeah, this is great look, and then the job's done. And then you don't work.

Victor

I'm kind of a character lead. So I'm like a Tom Hanks or Michael Keaton kind of thing. But I'm not a leading like, they didn't know what to do with me. They didn't know how to cast me.

Nancy VO: Even though Victor didn’t fit into some of those Hollywood roles, he kept going. He carved out a niche for himself over the years doing TV commercials and voice overs.

Commercial reel

Victor

I kind of hit a stride. And never made, you know, not a killing, but consistent money that it could support.

Victor

But it's I think. There's so many people that just basically, have given up. And they're, I mean, I'm talking phenomenal, amazing actors talented beyond belief, who just got to a certain point where I got to raise my kids, I can do this thing, I'm going to sell insurance. I'm done. I'm done. I just I've been fortunate enough that I've kind of been able to just keep going. I mean, granted, you have those moments of, like, Holy fuck, I just I sucked at that. Or, you know, you just wonder, cuz no one. It's not like, someone's going here. Good job, God, God, you're great. You know, you're, you're doing it on your own. And you have to find your own support mechanisms.

Victor

There's something in me that don't I I'm struck to use profanity. You know, just fuck it. I'm doing what I'm fucking doing. And granted, you want people to go, Oh, good job, good job. But it's like, I'm doing this, this is what I'm doing. And you're not going to stop me because I'm going to do it anyway. And I don't know where in my genetic pool makeup that comes from. And I've gotten better at I have to trust the fact that there that I'm doing what I'm doing for some reason. And, and just keep one foot in front of the next.

Nancy TAPE

Would you say that you're you kind of motivate yourself to keep going, even though there's rejection happening? Because of, I'm just gonna ask why. How do you motivate yourself to keep going?

Victor

I need I need to create opportunity for myself, because I love doing it.

Victor

I'll never not do it. Like, like, people talk about retiring even actors who work all the time they. But I just, I mean, the only reason I wouldn't do it is because I physically mentally couldn't.

Victor

But you look at somebody like you know, still working all those older actors like Anthony Hopkins in The Father right now. Oh, my fucking God. He's, he's just gorgeous. I mean, it's the craft and I want to be that it's kind of like me, me looking at those. Those people when I did the opera, you know I want to do that. I want to be that person. And the only way I can do it because I don't have those opportunities is just to keep going.

Nancy TAPE

What do you think separates you from the people that are like I'm done. I can’t do it anymore.

Victor

Again, it's just I'm not. I'm never not going to do this. I don't I can't see myself being me. And not doing this.

Beat

Nancy TAPE

would you say you have a biggest fan?

Victor

if I have a biggest fan, it is yourself being your own biggest fan.

Nancy TAPE

Yeah, cuz I would describe mean how you have described like handling the rejection, all of that, to me is a super self loyal way of this is how I want to be, you know, I have to do this like this is I got to figure out a way.

Victor

I mean, I think, which I hadn't really thought about till we've just had this conversation. But I think the the the analogy, or the things that I put together of Anthony Hopkins and my that thing when I was 11/12 years old, doing the opera is very resonant right now in me, based on our conversation just now. So I feel emotional now.

Music

Victor

My friend Paul Raci, who is now he's nominated for Best Supporting Actor this year and Academy Awards for this role that's perfect for him. I was in a play a few years back with Paul, and we became friends. And but he's older.

And, but we're backstage doing this show. That's a beautiful show. But, you know, he's saying, you know, look, I'm done. I'm done. I do these one line things. I don't work. I'm done. I'm finished. This is it. Going on and on about, forget it, fuck it. I'm done. No more rejection, one line pimp rolls, I'm over done. And he gets this roll. That is perfect for him. And he is going to the Academy Awards. I mean, it obviously gives you hope. But you know, not that I'm going to go to the Academy Awards, but whatever it is that makes things happen. Somehow out of the quintesimal fragments of existence, that galvanize into that moment that creates a lifelong opportunity,

I think has to derive itself from the motivation of not giving up, and I'm going to get it done. Because if Paul did give up, he never would have gotten that.

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Nancy TAPE

So do you think that that idea of having your own back, and, you know, kind of that biggest fan thing we've talked about is important?

Victor

It's the only it's the only way you can sustain yourself. Especially for an artist. I mean, granted, I guess someone who works in sales would need the biggest fan to say, I can talk to my boss about this new idea. You know, there, there's different versions of it. But as an artist, definitely.

Victor

I mean, especially if you're an actor, it's all just, you, you you. If you can't help yourself and be your own biggest fan, it'll be much more difficult to succeed or succeed is not the right word to continue doing what you do. Yeah, I mean, I would say that probably most of these other actors I know, who had to give up to financially make money to support their kids to do certain things. I mean, if they had their biggest fan, or they had some, something along those lines that kept them motivated or on track, even though they had to do these other things, they probably wouldn't have given up completely.

Victor

I think what gets you out of it is making a choice and stepping forward. Because what's stopping you is the lack of inertia, the feeling of I just want to pull the covers up over my head, and don't bother me. And so it's, you know, throwing the sheet off and stepping out and taking a shower and saying, just keep going.

Nancy TAPE

Is there anything that the fear of rejection kept you from pursuing?

Victor

No. I don't. I mean, I've learned in the past, and I think it's been a learned thing is that you can't make any choices based on fear. And, and that I think that's a piece of it. So, no, I've never not done anything because I was afraid of,

Victor

Somehow we are all unique. And we all deserve the possibility to empower ourselves to be and do whatever we want. And I think it is a question of trusting and letting that happen. And not questioning it and not being afraid of it. But just moving forward through it.

Victor

You know it sounds so simple, or just you, you have to, you have to live your dream.

Nancy TAPE

I am struck that self loyalty for you is just is a way of being in the world. And I think that's why it isn't something that's separate from you. It is it's a voice but it is like it's just like you kind of ooze it. It's just who you are.

Victor

Iit feels like it is a protective coat. I've created to wear for myself at a young age. And I think I've just worn it.

Victor

And yeah, it's part of me.

Music out

Nancy VO: Just putting one foot in front of the other. Trusting in yourself enough to know that you’ll make it to your next goal. That you’ll keep getting to do what you love despite the potential for rejection. THAT is the voice of the Biggest Fan in action.

Nancy VO: Like I told Victor, I’mstill learning how to trust that voice enough to put myself out there. To do the things that scare me. Like… learning how to network and market my business.

Music

Nancy VO: So last we left off, I was in the middle of a meltdown. In tears that Doug, my husband and the external voice of my Biggest Fan, had kindly, but firmly, told me to just get to work.

Nancy VO: By the time I’d rounded the corner of our second floor and headed back into my office I thought… he’s right. Really? That was the kind kick in the butt I needed. The tears weren’t about him insulting me. The tears were because he was right and I was scared.

To be fair this was a different version of kindness than my husband's usual go-to. Usually he leans more toward the coddling Oh Sweetie I know it is hard perspective. But every now and then, this different style of kindness comes out that is more genuine. It’s tough love. It’s you know how to put one foot in front of the other and you can do this. THAT is the voice of the Biggest Fan.

She says: it is going to be hard, it is going to be stressful and you can do it. No shame, no belittling, no beating me up like the Monger. But ALSO no chocolate, no hours of watching bad TV and making myself feel better by judging other people like my BFF.

On that day, Doug personified my Biggest Fan. He was kind, genuine, and to the point. He’s the Biggest Fan that exists outside of me and reminds me to check in with my internal Biggest Fan.

Music

Doug TAPE

so being the biggest fan and Nancy Jane Smith life? Is?

Doug TAPE

It's unique because she's kind of stubborn. And therefore there's the battle of the BFF and the mongar and then there's like a really stubborn that I want to keep this battle going

Doug TAPE

And it can be risky, but you just got to be like, hey, stubborn lady, stop in all this entanglement of arguing and get to work. Because you know, you need to get to work.

Nancy TAPE

There's a lot of shame in the fact that my mongar and BFF have ruled the day. And then when you come in to say it, you're walking a very, you know, a floor covered in mines. To get to the point where I'm going to be like, Oh, he's not attacking me. He's really, wants what's best for lovingly encouraging me. Versus you are

Doug TAPE

Cracking a whip over here.

Nancy TAPE

So but I think that there are definitely it's not like your success in this. Oh, no. That's it so hard.

It's not like you're a success at it all the time. Being my biggest fan, right?

Doug TAPE

Iit’s why I chose stubborn as well, because it's not like I know what's best. I'll just kind of poke and ask I'm not forcing anything on her. I'm not saying you have to progress and do this way. I'll just be like, hey, I've noticed this taking place. I know you have also so what's up with that?

Nancy TAPE

How would you describe the biggest fan?

Doug TAPE

I mean, the biggest fan is that that kind voice of reason that tells you what to do.

Nancy TAPE

How would you describe the Biggest Fan?

Doug TAPE

It's the one that is going to give you the most benefit not only now but most likely in the future as well. It's if there is such thing as a right choice, it's guiding you towards that right choice based on your morals and your values and your experience like that's that's your biggest fan and you have to believe that your biggest fan is going to be making those right choices or it doesn't quite work. Like yes, my biggest fan knows me. I believe my biggest fan and together we're doing this

Music out

Nancy VO: And that’s exactly what I did. As I sat down at my desk and started building a networking list, I could hear my internal Biggest Fan reflecting back what Doug told me: “You say you want to build a bigger business. You say you think building a network is an important next step. You say you’re scared. Understandable. Both are true so let’s do this.”

Outro

That’s it for this week! In our next episode we’re going to pull back from the nitty gritty of the Happier Approach characters and zoom out to see how we can integrate everything we’re learned about them on our own journey to self-loyalty. First stop: feelings. How do feelings translate into action? Can emotions have an impact on our physical as well as our mental health?

We’ll dive into all of that next time, on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Victor Warren for speaking with us today. You can learn more about Victor and follow his work at victor warren dot com.

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music fade out

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Season 2 Episode 3: The BFF

In this episode, we get close and personal with another central character in the Happier Approach: the overindulgent BFF.

In this episode, we get close and personal with another central character in the Happier Approach: the overindulgent BFF. The BFF has good intentions-- she's often jumping in to argue with the Monger when that mean voice of self-criticism gets too loud. But the BFF can push us over the line from self-care to self-indulgence very quickly. Nancy walks us through a typical tug-of-war between her Monger and BFF, and tells us how she's able to quiet those voices.

Nancy also speaks to writer and mental health advocate Jill Stark, author of three books about mental health. Jill tells us about her experience giving up alcohol, and how practicing radical honesty around that tough decision totally kick-started her career as an author. She also shares some tips that she's picked up from her own experiences dealing with her inner critic.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The BFF.

• Tips for recognizing the BFF voice and distinguishing between self-care and self-indulgence.

• Resources and advice from Jill Stark.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to https://jillstark.com.au/

• Check out Jill's Twitter account @jillastark

• Follow Jill on Instagram @jillstark_

• Order Jill's books When You're Not OK, Happy Never After, and High Sobriety through her website: https://jillstark.com.au/books/

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Cold Open

Jill: I’d just say to anyone who is feeling that they’re in a really tough place and that somehow their truffles define them or make them weak or weird or abnormal. You’re not alone. And it is possible to struggle and still be strong and that your vulnerability is your superpower.

Intro

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

So far this season we’ve tackled a few different topics. We’ve talked about where my inspiration to write the Happier Approach came from, and learned all about that mean old Monger. If you missed those episodes, go back and check ‘em out!

In today’s episode we’re exploring another Happier Approach character.

One that’s totally tied to the Monger, but acts like her complete opposite. I call her my BFF.

Music

Wherever there’s a Monger, there’s a BFF. When our Monger gets too loud and overwhelming, the BFF usually chimes in to relieve some of the pressure. She’s the voice that tells me: just hit the snooze button one more time, splurge on that fancy pair of pants that instagram advertised to you because you deserve it. She’s not mean like the Monger. She’s like one of those big red lollipops you get at the bank-- super sugary and a little too sweet. It tastes good but it’s not good for you.

Let me paint you a picture…

Music

Act I: Nancy’s BFF story

The house is quiet and my faithful cat companion Calvin is curled up next to me. With my coffee cup in hand and my laptop glowing in front of me I’m ready to start my day.

Bird chirping/morning sfx

I’m getting an early start because I’m excited to dive into a new project. A course I’m creating to talk about High Functioning Anxiety. And I am pumped to dive in.

Music shift

But… the new project joy doesn’t last very long. Before I can even open my web browser my Monger pops into my head. "You have no clue where to start," she sneers.

In a bid to quiet my Monger and find a starting place, I Google High Functioning Anxiety.

Keyboard tapping sfx

The first person to grab my attention is an anxiety expert. I click over to her website… and immediately my Monger starts talking again. "Her site looks so professional! She uses better buzz words than you do. Look, she says that she cured her anxiety!!! You keep saying you can’t cure anxiety but she says she has, so what is wrong with you!"

Then… like the other little devil on my shoulder

my BFF jumps up: "You can’t cure anxiety!” she screams, “That’s BS and you know it. I mean, who does this woman think she is describing anxiety that way—does she even know what anxiety is!?! Good grief, she did a terrible job. You are going to kick her ass. Your course will be 10000 times better-- just wait and see!"

Ok... I think. Surfing the internet is not helping. I’m just going to do a brain dump and write everything I know about HFA. I open up Word and start brainstorming.

And UGH there’s my Monger again: "This is a mess. At this rate this process is going to take FOREVER. You are never going to get this course done!”

"Ok, Ok that’s enough," says my BFF, "We have PLENTY of time. In fact, let's grab some cheese and crackers. All that mentally energy

and work deserves some food!!”

Sfx run downstairs, munch munch

After a few cheese and crackers, I return to my office, fortified and ready to dive back in. But the tug of war between my Monger and my BFF continues.

"Cheese and crackers—it isn't even lunchtime," says my Monger, "If you worked more you’d get more accomplished. At this rate we might get the course done next year!!"

And then of course, my BFF speaks her mind "We worked all morning, researching and writing. And you need brain food for this project! Protein and carbs are good for you.”

This is how it goes... back and forth, one chiming in then the other arguing on and on until I can't take it anymore!

I get stuck in this dynamic a lot. I hate that I get stuck here. I’m embarrassed that I get stuck here.

Beat

My Monger gets so loud beating me down that I get relief by listening to my BFF. She does one of 2 things. One, she encourages me to stop working and indulge in something chocolate, a glass of wine or some Real Housewives. Or two, she demonstrates how she always has my back, by beating up the other people I’m comparing myself to.

This is where I lived for a long time, jumping back and forth between those two voices. With just a little push from the Monger, the BFF can cross over the line from self-care to self-destruction in a second.

So how do we separate out those voices and really learn to take care of our whole selves. How can we tune out the anxious WWE wrestling match that’s always going on between the Monger and the BFF?

Act II: Jill Stark

Jill: When I was growing up in Scotland, my parents they used to worry that I would get hit by a car because I was literally reading a book as I was crossing the street. I was one of those nerdy kids. And I was always writing stories.

NANCY VO: This is Jill Stark. She’s a writer, mental health advocate, and author of three books about mental health.

Jill: I think storytelling is a very powerful vehicle for connection and for making people feel less alone. And, and feel comforted that their experiences are shared experiences.

NANCY VO: Jill was always sort of an anxious kid.

Jill: I just worried about everything. And you know, beyond the point that you would say, was kind of routine worries for a child like I would, if my mum went out for dinner with friends. And she wasn't back by a time that I had thought she'd be home, but I'd be standing at the window, waiting for her, convinced that she's, you know, died in a car crash.

Jill: I worried about everything from the width of my hips to like, nuclear war. I was worried about global warming in the 80s, before it was even known.

NANCY VO: And Jill’s anxiety was… BIG SURPRISE… accompanied by a loud Monger voice.

Jill: I have an inner critic, a cross between Regina George from Mean girls and nurse ratchet from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

So she’s mean and cutting and sometimes witty and hilarious, but you know,

Jill: pretty, pretty mean.

NANCY VO: As an adult the inner critic that stoked Jill’s anxiety-- it didn’t go away. But as she got older and moved from her native Scotland to her now-home in Australia-- she found other ways to cope. To quiet the nagging feeling that she didn’t quite fit in.

Jill: Alcohol gives us permission in our minds, to behave in a certain way.

Jill: It's sort of like, this sort of invisibility cloak, this sort of protective shield that we wrap around ourselves, and it's somehow going to give us these super powers of confidence and wit and conversational skills.

Jill: For me, alcohol was kind of this gateway to belonging and to being seen as this fun party girl who fit in, when really that's just a myth.

Beat/Music

Jill: I was about to turn 35. I had woken up on New Year's Day 2011 with a hangover that I honestly thought was going to kill me it was so awful.

Jill: But I had a pretty violent panic attack as I was in my car driving to go to McDonald's, to try and find some comfort for my pain. I just had this real sort of sense of something has to give here. I mean, I don't identify as an alcoholic, I wasn't someone who was, you know, waking up and craving a drink. But I was certainly someone who relied on alcohol very much in social situations.

Jill: But when I woke up with that hangover, in 2011, I just there was, you know, when you, you have that voice inside you that instinctive kind of guiding internal voice that is always there, but we often ignore it, we particularly can often ignore it if we pour alcohol in it and try to block it out. But it was starting to get louder with that hangover saying something has to change. You can't go on like this. You've been doing this since you're 13 years old. And it wasn't working for me anymore.

NANCY VO: At the time, Jill was a journalist, specifically a health reporter. And she had actually done a lot of reporting on alcohol consumption in Australia.

It’s a country with a strong drinking culture.

Jill: The thought of not drinking for three months from January to the end of March, which in Australia is summer, you know, and it also included my 35th birthday in that period, the idea of not drinking for three months, absolutely terrified me.

Jill: So I decided to give it a crack.

NANCY VO: Jill started blogging about her experience of giving up alcohol. And her editor at the paper suggested that at the end of all of it, she should write an article about everything she’d been through. But there was a catch. Jill would have to out herself as a health reporter with an unhealthy relationship to drinking.

Jill: It was just this complete like, cognitive dissonance like this complete disconnect between what I was writing and my own lived experience. I was really nervous.

Jill: I had really good contacts in that space, some of the most senior people in the country who were advising the Prime Minister on, on Australia's drinking guidelines, and these are like really clever neuroscientists and addiction medicine specialists, who had been my contacts, and all of the sudden I was outing myself as part of the problem.

Tense music

Jill: The night that it went to press, as I was leaving the newsroom on the Saturday afternoon, my editor said to me, as I was walking out the door, enjoy your last night of anonymity and kind of laughed, and I was just like, oh, what the hell have I done.

Beat

And sure enough, the next day, everything just went absolutely crazy,

Jill: I had more comments and emails, and feedback on that piece than anything I've ever written in my career.

NANCY VO: It turns out that the radical honesty of Jill’s article really resonated with people. She was tapping into her own self-loyalty. And it really paid off. Not only did she learn a lot about herself by not drinking, she got to write her first published book all about it.

Jill: High sobriety was more than anything, a journey of self discovery.

NANCY VO: It’s pretty common for the BFF to encourage us to use alcohol to escape. When she was writing High Sobriety, Jill realized that numbing out with alcohol to cope with anxiety kept the Monger in her strong.

Jill: If my greatest fear is being left alone, and outside of the group, then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy that I try to act in ways that will prove like see, I am defective, and unlovable because everyone left me, because I'm trying to prove this theory by behaving in ways that push people away.

Jill: So that's the way that I used alcohol.

Beat/music

Jill: We do often use comfort, whether it's food or alcohol or shopping, as a way to give us comfort, but it's a tricky one, I find that quite a very difficult balance to strike between knowing when you do need to just eat a tub of ice cream and watch Netflix, and that's the best thing for you, and when that is actually avoidance, or is actually harming you and it's learning to know yourself, and know when you're actually sliding into avoidance and almost self harm in what you're doing.

Jill: The more that you know about yourself, the more you can tell the difference between those two states.

NANCY VO: For Jill, part of learning to be self-loyal and tell the difference between self-compassion and self-sabotage, meant leaning in to listen to the voice of her inner child. Especially when she’s going through a tough time with her mental health.

Jill: I was walking around this big park near my place. And I just was walking and walking and crying. And listening to music and a song by Lady Gaga kind of came on. And I just felt this part of me, this little child part of me, that was kind of lost through this fog of depression, just speaking to me say, “I want to dance,” because she heard the music, and she wanted to dance. And I looked around and I was like, can't dance. We're in the middle of the park, people walking their dogs, people running, people everywhere. And then I just thought fuck it, and I ran into the middle of this field, or the middle of the park, and just had a silent disco for one. Because like, really, who cares! Like people were walking past and I'm dancing like, but who cares. And that moment of connection to that to really listening to what that little child said and find meaning in it was so powerful. And that's what I go back to again, and again. And again, when I'm really drowning. And I'm really feeling like I can't do this.

NANCY VO: In that moment, Jill listened to the little inner child voice inside her and tapped into a physical way to release her emotions, instead of numbing herself out.

Jill: And sometimes I need to put boundaries in it, because maybe she does want to eat the second time of ice cream. And maybe it's like, actually not what you need darling. And so it's being able to kind of connect with what she wants. And sometimes yes, let's, let's indulge, let's sit down and watch six hours of Netflix. But tomorrow, we're going to put on our shoes, and we're going to go out for a walk and we're going to eat some greens and like it's just having that balance.

Jill: I need to parent her. And when I'm drinking, I don't have the skills.

NANCY VO: Now Jill’s able to tap into what that scared little kid inside of her needs. Physically and emotionally. Because she knows herself, she can differentiate between self-compassion and self-sabotage.

Jill: I was looking at right now on my coffee table a picture of me as a four year old that I keep all my coffee table. And I speak to her and remind to remind me that that little child felt lost and alone. But she's shy. She's not anymore. And I'm here.

Music out

Act III: Nancy does ASK

NANCY VO: What Jill calls her inner child, I might call my inner voice of self-loyalty, my Biggest Fan. And learning to tune into that voice over the noise of the Monger and the BFF’s constant bickering is one of my tried and true techniques for separating self-compassionate actions from self-indulgent ones.

Music

NANCY VO: Last we left off, I was witnessing a battle royale between my Monger and my BFF. All triggered by working on a project that initially, I was excited to get started on.

So as the dust settles, finally, I decide it is time to practice ASK.

I acknowledge my feelings: inferior, uneasy, fear, excited, timid, passionate, hopeful.

I Slow Down and Get into My Body. I put on One Night in Bangkok, one of my favorite 80s tunes that always makes me dance and brings back good memories, and I do a little dance standing in my office.

One Night in Bangkok plays?

I Kindly pull back and see the big picture. With my hand over my heart, I say to myself, "Ok, Sweet pea, we want to write this course, we know a lot about High Functioning Anxiety.

We are passionate about it, and we can help people who are struggling. So let's do this. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. You know this stuff! And you can figure out HOW to organize it later. Let's get the outline done. Let's dive in.

I set the timer for 20 minutes, and I go to work.

Beat

Now I would love to say I sat down and wrote, and the Monger and BFF were silent—but I would be lying. The key to quieting them for me is not letting them get out of control. I rope them in as quickly as possible by practicing ASK, taking regular breaks, and setting timers. And if they get out of control, I take a pause and listen to what I really need, not what’s going to numb me out.

Outro

That’s it for this week! In next week’s episode we’re going to spend some time with the final character in the Happier Approach cast. The voice that really has my back.

My wise, self-loyal Biggest Fan.

That’s next time on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Jill Stark for speaking with us today! You can connect with Jill on Instagram @jillstark_, on Twitter @jillastark, and through her website at https://jillstark.com.au/

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music out

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Season 2 Episode 2: The Monger

In this episode, we take a trip into Nancy’s brain and learn all about her inner self-critique, her Monger.

In this episode, we take a trip into Nancy’s brain and learn all about her inner self-critique. The voice that tells her every day that all the things she’s doing just aren’t good enough. Nancy calls that voice The Monger.

The Monger is at the root of why Nancy started the Happier Approach. She realized that her Monger’s voice is particularly loud. Nancy wonders: do other people, people who really seem to have it together, have loud Mongers too? To answer that question Nancy speaks with Kati Morton, a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, author, and YouTube creator. Kati tells us about her own struggles with the inner critic and gives us some tips on how to quiet that screechy Monger voice. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The Monger

• Tips for recognizing the Monger's voice and quieting her.

• Resources and advice from Kati Morton.

• Kati Morton, LMFT holds a Master’s in Clinical Psychology from Pepperdine University and is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She runs a private practice in Santa Monica, CA. Over the past eight years, Kati has leveraged social media to share mental health information worldwide through video. Her specialties include working with individuals experiencing eating disorders and self-harming behaviors, although she addresses all things related to mental health. 

  Kati is well known for her YouTube channel which now has over 1 Million Subscribers and over 75 million views. In addition to Kati’s YouTube channel and strong presence on social media, she has appeared on KTLA’s Morning News, E! News, CBS The Doctors, Fox 11 Good Day LA, and was showcased in Europe’s highest circulated magazine, Glamour UK. She was also a 2019 Shorty Award finalist as well as a 2019 Streamy nominee. Kati’s first book, Are u ok?: A Guide to Caring for Your Mental Health was released in December 2018.

  Kati’s passion is to increase awareness about mental health. Her online community has expanded to all major internet platforms, allowing her to answer mental health questions from her followers around the world. She hopes by doing this, the global community can push for better services worldwide and remove the stigma associated with getting help.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to katimorton.com.

• Check out Kati's YouTube channel

• Pre-order Kati's forthcoming book Traumatized out September 7, 2021:

• Follow Kati on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Kati Morton: You know we overreact. So when, and we all if you’re honest with yourself will pay attention you’ll know when you’re overreacting but sometimes we double down. I am fully overreacting. I’m going all in.

Intro

Music

Nancy : Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

In our last episode-- the first episode of our new season WOOHOO!-- I told the story of how the Happier Approach came to be. Where it all started. If you’re a first time listener-- or you missed the episode and you’re curious!-- check it out.

But today we’re going to get very close and personal with the little… eh, little’s not quite right. How about…GINORMOUS! nagging ice in the back of my head that tells me I’m not good enough all day long. I call that ice: my Monger.

Doug It's as if you're in a pool. And there's lifeguards all around you watching you and they're gonna blow the whistle at you as soon as you do something wrong. But there's no lifeguards, and no one's watching you.

Nancy: That’s how my husband Doug describes my Monger. And that is totally accurate. I call her a Monger because she spreads propaganda. She’s like a horrible school marm wrapping my knuckles with a ruler whenever I make a mistake. My Monger points out my insecurities and judges everything I’m doing wrong.

Nancy : My Monger is pretty much at the root of why I started the Happier Approach. Whenever one of the other characters comes into my head, like the BFF or the Biggest Fan, they’re always coming in to rescue me from that snarly, screech-y Monger ice.

Beat/Music

Nancy : I mentioned this in our last episode, but I have a particularly loud Monger. She pops up at the most annoying times, and seizes on the littlest things. The things I should be taking joy in.

Like… making Cornbread Story.

Music

Act I: The Monger in Action

Cornbread Story : So the other night I made chili and we had cornbread with the chili. And I always make the cornbread into muffins. And so it was, they were in the muffin tins. And no matter how much I grease, the muffin tins, the cornbread comes out all crumbly. And to be clear, my husband nor I care about crumbly cornbread, in fact, we even tend to crop up the cornbread and put it in the chili. So it really does not matter in the scheme of things that the corn bread is not whole. But it is something that my mom grew goes crazy about that that is not whole.

Nancy : Yup. My monger goes crazy when I make cornbread. It seems silly, but it’s totally true!

Cornbread Story : so as I was trying to take the knife and pull the corn bread out of the muffin tins, my mother was just going crazy with this as wrong. And I noticed my anxiety getting higher and higher and higher. And I kept saying to myself, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We don't even use, you know, we crumble the corn bread up, this really doesn't matter. But that didn't help. Like it didn't matter that I was trying to rationalize with my mongar.

Nancy : This is one of the hardest lessons for me to learn about my Monger. When I try to dissect her, or get rid of her by rationalizing… it doesn’t matter! She just comes back into my head, stronger than ever, to tell me again how I’m doing it wrong.

Beat

Nancy : So in terms of this cornbread quote unquote disaster, it doesn’t matter that my husband and I don’t even care what the cornbread looks like. This is the actual problem:

Cornbread Story: It is that I can't get them to be that shape.

Nancy : That perfect, pillowy, muffin shape-- for those of you keeping track at home.

Cornbread Story : And so therefore, I'm doing it wrong. And that was the message of this is my mongers messages usually around, you're doing it wrong. That's a common theme for me. So the fact that here, it had nothing to do with the fact that practically, we don't care about what the cornbread looks like it had to do with the fact that it should look a certain way. And I should be able to make it look perfect. And that I couldn't do that no matter how much I greased the tin or how well I did it was a sign that I was a major loser.

Music out

Nancy : Wow. A major loser. Because the shape of my muffins are a little wonky. Even I can see, that’s HARSH.

Beat

That leaves me circling around this question that I’ve actually wondered about a lot. Why is my Monger so loud around the littlest things? Am I alone here, doomed to obsess over cornbread for eternity, or do other people, people who really seem to have it together, have loud mongers too?

Music lead-in to Act II

Act II: Kati Morton

Kati Morton : Let me turn on the camera here.

Nancy: Okay, my cat is crawling around. I seem to be this is Gus. Okay, so let's just go go. Hi,

This is Kati Morton. She’s a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist... AND a super popular Youtube creator.

Kati Morton : I, to be honest, it's gonna sound kind of funny, but I always get bored at work. And I used to have had a bunch of different jobs. You know, I've been a waitress, a salesperson, a HR rep, I've done all sorts of things. And over the years, every job I took, I was always kind of bored of it. And therapy just never gets boring. People are fascinating. And it's it's a real privilege to get to be on the path with someone as they work to better themselves.

Nancy : On her YouTube channel Kati covers all kinds of topics around mental health.

Kati Morton : What I do on YouTube is just help to educate and empower people help them understand something, maybe they can't understand or decode what therapists say why we say what we say a certain way, or help them better understand a diagnosis, treatment, all that stuff.

Nancy : Kati’s been making videos on YouTube for almost 10 years now.

Kati Morton : Like I came of age in college. When Facebook first started. I had MySpace, so get on my level.

Nancy : Even though she knew her videos would make mental health more approachable to a bunch of people, the task of bringing therapy concepts to YouTube seemed… a little out of her comfort zone.

Kati Morton : I was like, absolutely not. That is weird. I have no, I don't want to be on camera. That's super uncomfortable. What do I do with my hands? I don't even know what if people don't like me.

Nancy : But the more she thought about it-- and the more her then-boyfriend now-husband nudged her towards the idea-- she warmed up to it.

Kati Morton : And, yeah, about six months later, I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But I'll only film one video a week. And that's how it was born.

Nancy : From there Kati built up an audience of over one million subscribers. I know! But even with so much success on her YouTube channel, even she struggled with that nagging ice of self-doubt sometimes.

Nancy : Do you have a loud inner critic ice? personally?

Kati Morton : Yes, I talk pretty candidly or I try to within reason about my own therapeutic work, because I've been in out of therapy since I was 15, which I think is a very important component of being a mental professionals like, not only do I need to know what it's like on the other side, but I also need to know how hard it is to do that internal work.

Kati Morton : I know how hard that is, because I've done it. So I definitely am the type a perfectionist type of person. I never feel like I'm doing enough, right or it's not good enough. And that's a really hard thing to do when you're creating

Nancy : Speaking from person experience, my Monger can be pretty loud when I’m working on creative projects. It was the same way for Kati.

Kati Morton : I think that that is kind of what comes out of that for me is like, Who am I to do this? Well, I don't even know what I'm talking about. People aren't gonna listen, this is stupid. You know, it's kind of that talking down. But the thing that I've realized in the work that I'm trying to do, personally, is to say to myself, in the nicest way possible. Shut up. Stop it. You're only being a jerk to yourself. And this helps no one and it only makes you feel bad. And so it's hard and I sometimes get caught in it, but I've gotten better at recognizing when it's happening.

Kati Morton : So anyways, yeah, I definitely have my own inner critic, and I battle her every day. And she's very stubborn. She's the worst.

Nancy : Once I started embracing that, in my own therapy, practice of being like, I don't know, I mean, I'm just doing the best I can with what I have. And I'm not this person on the hill that has it all figured out. But I start so I call that inner critic ice a mongar. Because mongar spread propaganda, and that is what the mongar is doing. And so, the reason I got into this work personally, is because I believed I realized I believed I needed that ice to get anything done. Like I needed the shame to motivate me.

Kati Morton : First of all, I love monger the spreading propaganda. Because I always tell myself and my audience, a thought is not a fact. Yes. So don't think your thoughts are facts. And then if you're looking for evidence, another thought doesn't is not evidence.

Kati Morton : I think it's kind of the No pain, no gain societal norm, that we have all subscribed to it, for better or for worse, because we think that in order to be successful, or to be valued. We think we have to suffer for it.

Nancy : But I realized, you know, I have a very loud inner critic, you know, my husband calls her the demon within and, and I realized, yes, I think everyone has an inner critic, but not everyone has that demon ice. Why do you think people have louder ices than others?

Kati Morton : I think part of it is the way we were raised. And I know people are like therapists always blame childhood. Well, that's because a lot of shit happens in childhood.

Nancy : Amen to that.

Kati Morton : And I think that we learn from our parents and our caregivers and our family. That, like, I'll even be honest, I can remember times and my mom kind of like talking herself down about things like,

Music

Kati Morton : I used to love how much faith she'd have in me like we were just talking the other day about how I won this coloring contest. And I loved to color as a kid, but I'm not a drawer, my brother's the artistic drawer one, and I can fill it in, okay. And part of this current contest was, oh, he had to draw something new to color it in. And I told her I don't draw. And she's like, Well, yeah, you can just make a scribble and then make sense of it, you could do that. And she was always at what you can do that, yeah, just do it. With herself she wasn't. And so it's kind of like this mixed message around like, I can't, so you have to. So I internalize that is like, Oh, I have to be the one that rises above like the hero child like does everything perfectly, and all of that. And I think that for a lot of us, we have different stories either our parents told us things weren't good, or teachers or we were bullied or things like that. And we internalize that.

Beat

Kati Morton : I think that this inner critic, this monger this, this shit talker, looks through all those lenses constantly in therapy is like, No, no, no, let's take those lenses away. They're not doing it you can't even see anymore. And it's really hard to do that then because we feel so scared. Like, personally, when I do something that's against my inner critic. I think you're just going to regret this. It'd be terrible. It's going to blow up.

Nancy : How do you? How do we fix it? What are some strategies you have for overcoming this? Or quieting this loud inner critic ice?

Kati Morton : That's the crazy wonderful, beautiful thing about therapy is therapy is almost like an art because there's so many different ways in it's like we have a door with like 17 locks on it. If you open one of them, they all open and so there's all these different ways in

Kati Morton : I can visualize all those locks. Like I have all these different keys and one key might be easier for you to find. So don't think that this is just the only way in. But for me, I always thought that I needed to shut her up. She was abusive. She was terrible. I hated that part of myself which just spun into like a snowball of more shame and guilt and shit talking

Music

Kati Morton : But my inner critic is actually scared me. She's a younger me, she's a little, she's worried about future me, she's trying to protect me, it actually comes out of a love and a need for protection that she tries to keep me down to help me fit where I already have fit. Not knowing that I could outgrow that and want to move into something else. And I think when I start to view that in that lens through that lens, I can see you're just throwing a tantrum. And what do we do when a child is tantruming? Sure, we can reprimand them. And that's what I've been doing. For years, I've been reprimanding her. How dare you, you've embarrassed me Stop it. But what we know is actually more effective. Anybody who has had children, if you can help them to speak, to share in some way, what they're going through,

Kati Morton : We're looking at like a branch on the tree that has grown and I need to track it back. Because chances are, at least for in my experience, and for my inner critic, or inner monger. She is just worried. And she's stressed about letting people down and hurting herself. And so if I can acknowledge that, then that's the start of the work, right? Because then I can say, Well, how can I assuage her fears about this? How can I calm her? What are things that could be soothing?

Music out

Nancy : Heck. Yes. Acknowledging the feelings that my Monger is pointing to even if they seem irrational-- THAT’S been a game changer for me when it comes to communicating with her. Like Kati said, usually my Monger is just scared that I’m not going to be okay. And I have to remind her that she-- we-- are safe. Even if we’re not perfect all the time.

Act III

Nancy : Let’s return to the Great Cornbread Disaster of 2021, shall we?

Beat

Nancy : After I had my initial freakout about the shape of my cornbread muffins not turning out perfectly even though they were just going to be all crumbled up into a big bowl of chili… I took some time to think. To tap into what my Monger was really upset about.

Cornbread Story : And then finally I had the AHA of Oh, it isn't, it isn't about what I'm upset about is the fact that I can't do it perfectly that that they aren't looking perfect.

Cornbread Story : But once I was able to figure out Aha, it is this idea of it has to be perfect. I was like okay, but it's not perfect. I didn't do it perfectly. It's not going to be perfect. I'm going to be okay with that. And the minute I kind of realized, Oh, I'm just it isn't perfect. I'm okay with that was a huge, everything kind of relaxed and my mongar kind of went quiet.

Nancy : It wasn’t rationalizing or trying to reason with my Monger that calmed her down. Just like if she was a little kid who got upset about a big scary monster under the bed-- telling her THE MONSTER ISN’T REAL DUMMY isn’t going to make her any less afraid. In fact it’d probably make her more upset!

Cornbread Story : So I say, Ah, I don't care that the corn bread isn't perfect, because it doesn't have to be perfect because we're just going to crumble it in the chili. But in reality it is.

Beat

Nancy : Instead, I looked at her fear, and accepted it. I’m afraid I’m not perfect? Well, turns out: I’m not! Once I let myself be okay with that little fact, the Monger quieted down.

Cornbread Story : You're right. The cornbread isn't perfect, and that does drive me crazy, but it's not. So we’ve got to move on.

Outro

Nancy : It is hard giving myself a break like that. Even taking the time to sit with myself and really understand why my Monger is being so loud. It’s a constant process. And I’m getting better at it. The more I practice, the more I have faith that there will be less stressful batches of cornbread in my baking future. Pillowy muffins be damned!

Nancy : Cornbread is such a small example, but because it’s kind of ridiculous, I think it’s a good way to show how the Monger can show up in the silliest places where you least expect her and wreak hac on your feelings of self-worth.

Nancy : But now at least, I know that even if my cornbread muffins crumble, instead of pushing my Monger away by rationalizing my disappoint, I can acknowledge my Monger’s fears and let her know that sometimes it’s okay if things aren’t totally perfect, 100% of the time. I am human! I make crumbly cornbread! And that is O K.

Beat/music

That’s it for this week’s episode! Next time we’re going to focus on another familiar frenemy of the Happier Approach. The ice that’s always trying to save me from my Monger, but butting in with a little too much leniency.

My let’s-procrastinate-all-day-because-you-deserve-it, have that third glass of wine, hit the snooze button for the fifth time this morning, conspirator in all things self-indulgent: my BFF.

That’s next time on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy : The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Kati Morton for speaking with us for this episode. She has a new book coming out in September called Traumatized that you can pre-order now. You can subscribe to her YouTube channel to hear more of her brilliance, or go to www.katimorton.com to learn more about her work. Links are in the show notes.

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music out

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Season 2 Episode 1: Hi I'm Nancy

In this episode, the first of our new season, we go back to the beginning to learn how The Happier Approach all started.

This is a great episode to listen to if you're just learning about the podcast. If you're a longtime listener, you'll get the in-depth story of how Nancy started her journey toward self-loyalty, catalyzed by a public talk at a wine shop, as well as a personal tragedy.

You'll hear from all the major characters in Nancy's life, her husband Doug, her best friend Mary, her mom Jane, and even her dad Ted. Each of them remembers, along with Nancy, how she came to recognize her Monger and her BFF, and rally her Biggest Fan to start her journey toward self-loyalty.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The origins of The Happier Approach.

• A primer on the major characters of The Happier Approach: the Monger, the BFF, and The Biggest Fan.

• The story of the beginning of Nancy's personal journey toward self-loyalty.

Resources mentioned:

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Doug: If I could say anything to the monger and have it actually listen to me it would be go away about certain topics like go away about making bread. We don’t need to have monger-bread every time you make bread. So I’d be like, Monger, get on your train and go to wherever breadland is and pic someone else.

NANCY : Hey guys, it’s me. Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to a new season of The Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Music

If you’re a longtime listener, this season is gonna be just a little bit different. Think of it like a journey. I’m Dorothy and we’re not in Kansas anymore. You’re following me down the yellow brick road to the magical land of self-loyalty and along the way we’re gonna run into all our old friends and frenemies: The Monger, the BFF, and the Biggest Fan.

And if you’re a new listener who’s like, “Uh… self-loyal-who?” and “What’s a Monger!?” No worries! Because we’re gonna start the story of The Happier Approach all the way at the beginning.

So click your ruby slippers, put Toto in your picnic basket, and follow me.

Act I: Doug meets Nancy’s monger

Nancy So you're gonna hold your phone up like this? off to the side to the speaker. Yeah, like, here's speaker.

Fade under

NANCY: This is a guy who knows me really well.

Doug Well, I'm Doug Harris. Husband of Nancy Jane Smith, her nearest and dearest, if you will.

NANCY: Doug’s seen me at my best…

Doug My first impression of Nancy Jane Smith. Was... gotta go with the laugh?

[insert Nancy laugh]

Doug Yeah, I mean, how can you just enjoy it? How can you not be attracted to that laugh?

Nancy You're so sweet. [laughs]

NANCY : And… he’s seen me at my worst.

Nancy How and when did you get introduced to my monger?

Doug

mean, I think as soon as you meet Nancy's monger, when she's signing the check, she's like, how much should I tip this person? I know what they deserve. And I know what I would do if I was them. But I'm just gonna write this number. I'm like, great. You did a great job. You've done a wonderful service to this server. Excellent. But do you think it's the right number? Yes, I agree

NANCY : My monger is the mean ice in my head that makes me second guess myself. The obsessive part of me. The part of me that tells me I’ll never be good enough.

Doug I understand that I would go with a big heavy weighted blanket that keeps you down from moving anywhere

Nancy So what are some of my tells? You said deep sighs but

Doug mostly, they're physical like, rocking back and forth, usually. She'll rock back and forth, like 18 inches, on a big monger day.

NANCY : And my monger? She can be REALLY loud.

Doug It's as if you're in a pool. And there's lifeguards all around you watching you and they're gonna blow the whistle at you as soon as you do something wrong. But there's no lifeguards, and no one's watching you.

NANCY : For a lot of my adult life, that’s exactly how I felt. I had this internal commentary constantly telling me how I could improve myself and what I was doing wrong. Telling me that if I wasn’t careful the outside world would find out what a lazy, anti-social, obsessive failure I was.

Music

NANCY : When I became a counselor I was fascinated with the idea of the inner critic, the ice of self-doubt and criticism. AKA the ice I ended up calling The Monger.

When I started writing and presenting about the Monger, everything clicked. People resonated with that obsessive ice of self-doubt. I wasn’t alone. Other people had mongers too.

Sound design (wine shop)

One day, I did a presentation about the Monger at a local wine shop. Going into the presentation I felt excited. Super confident because I was about to share a Monger antidote with my audience, a ice I called The Biggest Fan. She was the Monger’s opposite: a wise cheerleader who always had my back. By listening to the Biggest Fan I could make my Monger quiet.

After my presentation a friend came up to me and said, “I loved that presentation. But I’m not going to do anything you said to do because I NEED my Monger. I need that mean ice or I won’t get anything done.”

And BOOM.

There it was. The belief that I’d unconsciously held for so long. I needed that ice. I needed the Monger. I felt a mix of relief and shame. Relief that I wasn’t the only one who believed I needed the Monger, and shame because I felt like I was presenting about something I didn’t fully understand.

That moment was enough to make that Monger antidote ice, my Biggest Fan, get quiet again. I stopped talking about the Monger. And for a while, I let her run my life.

Beat

That is, until my dad got sick.

Music

Act II: Ted

Video Nancy: Okay Teddy

Video It is July 19th 2015. Mom: Is this on?

NANCY : This is an interview I recorded with my dad, Ted Smith, a few years after he was diagnosed with Parkinsons and dementia.

Video N: What comes to mind when you think about growing up in Columbus?

Video Ted: living on a farm and working on a farm

NANCY : I wanted to record some of his memories, to freeze him in time as the larger-than-life character I’d always known.

Beat

Video how did you meet your wife and how did you know she was the one?

Video I met my wife in a sunday school class at united methodist church Mom: cause i wore the pink dress? I don't know I just got the impression that she was the one. Nancy: that's such a romantic answer. Screw you LAUGHS.***

NANCY : Of course, my mom’s one of the people who knew dad best. And loved him, idiosyncrasies and all.

Nancy Did you kill the bottle?

Jane Yeah, but it was not. It wasn't full.

Is this on?

Fade under

Jane My name is Jane Smith.

Jane Nancy Jane Smith is my dear darling daughter.

Beat

Jane Ted was three years older than I was, and my sister was two years older and she and her friends. They were all all about Ted, and he dated all of them. In fact, I counted, I think 20 people that he dated before he dated me.

Jane And Ted knew what he wanted. And he, he had, he had his rules.

Jane everything had to be done. quote unquote, perfect, you know,

Nancy to his expectations

Jane I will say that he was very direct. And he always spoke his mind. And

Nancy even if it was inappropriate,

Jane Oh Yes Definitely

Nancy Laughs

Beat

Doug I remember Ted being a really good guy. I remember him being old and proud.

NANCY : That’s my husband Doug again. He and my dad had a good, odd couple kind of relationship. They were sort of opposites. But they got along really well.

Doug he always wished for the good old days back when he was mowing the yard or whatever you did at that house for fun. But very proud and never quite good enough. Which was bizarre. It never quite made sense to me, I'm like, you're a fully accomplished man.

Video Well... I never really accomplished that much I guess. For somebody to look at me and say you're this person, I don't think I've ever done that. I don't know, I don't wanna be like that.

NANCY : My dad got sick around the same time I had that revelation about my Monger. You know, the one where I thought I needed a mean ice in my head to survive? And spending so much time with my dad, I started to recognize the ice of the Monger in him.

Video you have to watch out. People are not honest. So you have to protect yourself, try to raise your kids so they can protect themselves and you protect yourself.

NANCY : Seeing the Monger in my dad broke my heart. Here was a man I adored. He was in his late 70s, strong, intelligent, resourceful, and kind. And all he could talk about were his failures.

Jane he was very rigid,

NANCY : That’s my mom again.

Nancy even like, we'd go to fancy resorts, and he would pull out his bran flakes and yet Grape Nuts. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he would eat that instead of eating the buffet or whatever, cuz that's what he ate.

Nancy he couldn't eat the crap that was at the buffet, right?

Music

Nancy So what do you remember about his dad's illness?

Jane his illness was long, I mean, long standing.

Doug Yeah, it's like, Ted was the sun and then the sun went out. And so Nancy didn't know what to do. She was a solar powered individual

Nancy : My dad’s death brought me to my knees. It was… devastating. He was a guiding force for me and without him I felt lost.

Nancy because dad the grief over dad was so great. That for the first time. Yeah, for the first time, I couldn't ignore my feelings. Yeah.

Beat

Jane I get a lot of tears in my eyes, you know, and when I look at the Cardinals out, you know, I know that Ted is there, his spirit, you know, I, you know, I know that he is with me. And even though I tell him that I wish he was here. And, and I, but, but he isn't, but I know he's here in spirit.

NANCY : After my dad died I decided a way to honor him was to figure out once and for all how to quiet this Monger ice. This ice that had plagued him, and tortured me. I was going to find a way to shut down the Monger once and for all.

Music

Act III: The birth of the happier approach

Mary Teddy came in my office. And literally, I don't even know if he said hi. He said, You need to break up your boyfriend.

Mary Oh, I started laughing when I thought about this because I'm like, I was like, Who is this guy?

NANCY : This is Mary, one of my oldest, best friends. She knew my dad too, and she watched me struggle after he died.

Nancy So do you see some of him in me?

Mary You think [Laugh]

Mary yes the rules and the ices and the same I'm sure beating yourself up even though to me he seemed like this you know like my dad we want to see them as this big competent person but um but I think he was probably driven by the demons that you are as well with you know, go go go and you got to do better all the time.

Nancy Did you see a link between that and me writing the book?

Mary I think it brought the mongar front and center and brought it to life.

Mary I think since it kind of controlled you and him now that he was gone.

Mary You needed to dissect it and really bring it bring it to life it could no longer basically just go unanswered.

NANCY : My grief over my Dad was all-consuming and writing the Happier Approach was one way I could channel it. I told myself that if I was going to write a book I was going to be 100% honest. No more pretending that something might work when it wasn’t working for me. I was going to own how hard self-acceptance was.

Mary I think you told me you're going to kind of lay out the ices in your head.

Mary And then it was so cool, because you really did dissect your, your three parts of you that are constantly talking

NANCY : Those three ices: the mean Monger, the overindulgent BFF, and the wise Biggest Fan, are the main characters in the Happier Approach. AKA the ices that are constantly cross-talking in my head. And getting to know them has been the key to overcoming my Monger.

Music

Nancy So how would you say do you think it's made a difference in me?

Mary Yes.

Nancy I was a little nerus you were gonna be like, No,

Mary no, I definitely do.

Mary I think you do accept yourself more and see, you know, who you are in a much better light than you used to.

Beat

Doug I hate to say it wrote itself, because I wasn't the one typing it by any means. I was just sitting downstairs and she's typing upstairs. Probably crying.

NANCY : Cue my husband Doug again.

Doug , like you just dove into your brain, and your intellect your experience, and you put it down.

Nancy But looking back, it was it did kind of write itself. Like I felt like it. Like sometimes I'll read that book and be like, Oh, my God, I can't believe I wrote this, you know, because it, I think some of that was just I was so all encompassed by grief that I don't remember the struggle of writing it. But also, my mongar was pretty quiet during that process.

NANCY : THAT was the wildest part of writing the Happier Approach. Even though the characters and the methodology just flew out of me and onto the page, the actual, craziest, part was that the whole time my Monger was: quiet.

Beat

She showed up from time to time but she didn’t stick around long. And I think it’s because while I wrote the book, I was being radically honest with myself. In other words, I was practicing self-loyalty. Finally listening to that wise ice of the Biggest Fan way in the back of my head. And bringing her up to her rightful place: front and center.

Music

NANCY : That’s our quest this season on the Happier Approach: to shine a spotlight on that self-loyal ice. We’re going to get to know each of those cross-talking characters: The Monger, the BFF, and the Biggest Fan. We’ll talk to experts in neuroscience, ex-journalists, and labyrinth-builders to learn how to tap into that wise inner ice of the Biggest Fan, and hop, skip, jump into the magical land of self-loyalty. A place where the Monger is quiet, and the Biggest Fan is queen. I’ll be learning right alongside you. And honestly, I can’t wait to get started.

Music

NANCY : When I had that recent conversation with my mom, she brought out a copy of the Happier Approach, and flipped to the acknowledgements page.

Jane And then I looked up your acknowledgments I thought, Oh, you wrote my mom. You acknowledged me. In your book. You

NANCY : She reminded me who this book, this podcast, the whole Happier Approach is for.

Jane then you said, Thank you for giving me the gifts of roots and wings. And then you said for your dad, you taught me the power, integrity, perseverance and showing up. You were the inspiration for the book. I only wish were here to read it. And I miss you every day.

NANCY : So... thanks dad. And thank you for listening.

Music

Outro

NANCY : The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music by Pod5. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot. We’ll be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care until then.

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Episode 165: Practicing Self-Loyalty in the New Year - Part 2

In this episode, I’m continuing my conversation with my producer Sean McMullin, going deeper into change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

The beginning of any new year often hyperactivates our “Shoulds.”

I should lose weight.

I should start meditating more.

I should be kinder to myself.

I should put myself out there more.

I should, I should, I should.

I am no stranger to the Shoulds that my Monger promotes every new year. Like clockwork, those shoulds and New Year, New Me attitudes drift away. My Monger always has a heyday with this—convincing me that I was failing.

But the concept of self-loyalty—the notion that true change comes only when we’re loyal to ourselves first—is what changed the game for me… for the better.

In part one of this series on self-loyalty, I talked with my friend and podcast producer, Sean McMullin. We defined self-loyalty and how to bring self-loyalty to the center of your life as you make plans for change in the new year. If you haven’t listened to part one yet, I recommend that you do it before jumping into this one.

Today, I’m continuing my conversation with Sean, going deeper into change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How 2020 and COVID changed our approach to resolutions

• How our image of ourselves, our identities, and our stories can keep us from seeing possibilities

• Upcoming changes for the Happier Approach Podcast

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Sean: I am not the best about self-loyalty. And I think expansiveness as a metaphor of I'm allowing myself this year to not only know what I want but to act on it and allow my person and my needs and my aspirations to expand and fill space

Intro Music

Nancy: Today, I'm continuing my interview with Sean McMullin, my friend, and podcast, producer, talking about change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

If you missed part one, I encourage you to listen to Episode 164 first. In part one, Sean, and I define self loyalty and how to have self loyalty as you make it plans for change in the new year. Often when we have high functioning anxiety, we're so focused on improving and reaching perfection. We forget that true change can only come when we are loyal to ourselves first.

You're listening to the Happier Approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Keep listening to hear how 2020, and COVID changed our approach to resolutions, how our image of ourselves, our identities and stories can keep us from seeing all the possibilities and the upcoming changes for the Happier Approach podcast.

Sean: My big resolution for the entire year. It's a layover from my last years from 2020s theme, which I'll be honest, got completely scrapped because last year kind of got weird.

So I decided to roll it over. The theme was thinking big and I liked that. And then I was kind of like doing some meditation on the subject of thinking big and like, why am I interested in doing this? And then I kind of landed on, I am someone who does not often have aspirations.

And it's so interesting that you and I are talking about these things together because. It's like we're Laurel, Laurel, and Hardy or something like we're like, one of us is the straight man, and I'm not sure which one of it is, which one of us, it is. So aspirations, like allowing myself to think big, allowing myself to have big aspirations was thought.

And then I landed on this word of expansiveness. And so this year's theme is expansiveness. I tend to hide. And not let my needs. I am not the best about self loyalty. Um, I quietly do self loyalty, but then I, I spend a lot of time resentful because I just do what other people want me to do.

And I am such an Enneagram nine. I spend so much time quietly, quietly resenting the world and a seething ball of resentment. As my wife calls me. And I think expansiveness as a metaphor of I'm allowing myself this year to, to not only know what I want, but to act on it and allow my person and my needs and my aspirations to expand and fill space.

This might sound weird for some of you listening. To listen to the white man talk about struggling with holding space. And I am the very aware of the irony of this. And I mean, and I am very aware of, yeah, I want to be very clear on this, that I know that I go to the grocery store and you know, the world is just lays out in front of me and everything I want is given to me and it is, and I own that, right?

Yeah. And I also have some struggles with my relationship with her friends. And like, it can be both of those things at the same time. Um, I'm not saying that like I'm suddenly like a, a men's rights advocate, and I'm was like, my needs are blah, blah. You know, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when I think about something.

I'm allowing myself to let it expand and see what the potential of me as an individual in this world is. And so that goes into the plan for the year. I want to pursue my art on a much deeper and broader level and, and that means acting on it. And that means embracing it and doing something about it.

And so, yeah. I love cozy, quiet little things. I love to sit on the couch and knit and drink tea. I mean, I'm a little old lady and I can also admit that that place of comfort and coziness can hold me back. So

Nancy: yeah. So last year when that was your word,

Sean: because I, so this is true. I did say big things big last year

Nancy: Yeah, you did. Yeah. Okay.

Sean: Okay. I thought so,

Nancy: But you didn't have the accountability pieces of the theme. You just said, this is the theme. Yeah. Thinking big, but there was no smaller chunks of that. Yes. As there are this year. Yeah. Did you lose the theme last year? I mean, I know we have COVID and so it's hard to say like, given that out, but do you think you'd lost it, like lost the focus of it?

Sean: Yes. I did lose the focus. Yes.

Nancy: Kind of got to push to the side.

Sean: Yeah. I mean, I still continue to go back to it as much as I could. Like, I, I continued to say that's what I was doing, but I didn't really do it. I mean, if anything, my life really. Instead of expanding out it very, really contracted in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

Nancy: That could be expansive too

Sean: well. And that's actually one of the things. Yes. Because having all these options and responsibilities, and we talked about your experience over the holiday of not being able to do the things that we always did and what we learned as a result of it, like who are we when all we.

All we have to do is stay home. Who, who do we become? But I think, I think as we're looking towards aspirations and we're looking towards resolutions in this year, 2020 was I think a real opportunity for a lot of us to kind of like take a much closer look at who we are and what we want. And so I'm very interested to see for how 2021 kind of plays out with what we've learned in the last year.

Nancy: Yeah, I agree. It makes me laugh that one of the things I railed against at the beginning of, of COVID quarantine was there were a number of woo people being like, we need this time to, to come into ourselves and, and they were kind of like looking at the positive of COVID. And I was so annoyed. I was just like, this is not positive people.

Like this is a worldwide pandemic and we're all freaking out and yeah. Ooh, this gives us the time to come in and look at ourselves. And part of me was wrong in the sense of, I don't think it was healthy at that point to be like, here's the positive of what's happening. But I do think that is for many people what happened, that that has been a positive.

That a lot me included, like kind of got clear on what's important here. And, and being able to, to shut everything down was kind of nice in some ways. And I think it'll be interesting to see hopefully if by the end of this year, as we, as we opened back up, where do we go? You know, how, how much of this do we retain and how much do we not, which I think is, is fits with the idea of new year's resolutions.

In the sense of a lot of times, we, we want to make these changes. But we don't recognize how hard they are to make and how hard they are to, to keep. And, and we kind of lose the focus to the external world. It'll be interesting to see at the end of this year, since you have it more laid out. Because I'm excited about that, that you have more accountability, more plans, and then that mixed with holding it loosely.

It'll be interesting to see the difference between this year and last year. And I think there was some power in last year. Holding it as loosely as you did, and kind of last year was kind of the chance to try on Sean is an artist. Sean is someone who takes himself seriously. Sean thinks bigger. And just having that noodle around in your head for a year got you to this year to be able to make it more concrete.

Sean: Yeah. Oh, I, I do. I do. I am a, what do they call that? I'm a. I'm a slow boil. They call that. And I think we all are.

Nancy: Yeah. That's I mean, all change is incremental. I think we forget that it's that, you know, like I, what was, what's his name? Anthony Hopkins. The actor. Yeah. Um, right between Christmas and new year's.

He was on Twitter. He celebrated his 30th year of being sober or something. It was some sober. Thing. And, and I remember it struck me because it was before new year's, you know, like a lot of people have that aha of like, Ooh, overdid on new year's even though it's what do they say? Amateur night? His was between Christmas and new year's, whatever, like the 27th.

And he said, you know, and it was some powerful message. And he said, be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid, which is the, is a quote from Goethe. Is that how you say his name?

Gerta

G O E T H E.

Sean: I think it's like, Gerta

Nancy: huh. Anyway, I don't know, but I have it sitting on people to mighty forces will come to your aid to remind myself to be bold.

I want that to be like, poof, I'm bold. Now I have the quote, I'm holding that as my theme, but it is a period of adjustment. Of what does bold mean? What does it mean to be bold? How does that show up? How do I do that? How do I deal with the ramifications of that? What if mighty forces don't come to my aid?

And so that's what I feel like you did last year. So I think when there's an identity shift, we, we forget about the identity shift. I remember when I stopped drinking, it was the identity of here's someone who's the life of the party who loves to drink, who challenges other people to drink tequila shots.

Like that was me. And then to go suddenly from Nope, I'm not that person is, is an identity shift that we don't a lot for. Someone who works out all the time to someone who's a gym rat. We don't a lot for that change. And I think that's a big part of this is recognizing who we are as a who we are and how we see ourselves that needs to shift too.

Sean: Yeah. You know, I celebrated three years, uh, December 13th, so it's interesting. It's um, I did go to AA for a couple for about the first year and it's not my thing. Like I never really. Needed. I mean, it played a role and I'm not dissing it. It is just not something I needed for my entire life. But with this identity change thing, it was funny.

They're like everyone walks their own walk but I met people who years and years and years of sobriety, and they still seemed like drinkers, like they still behave like it. So much of their identity self seems so wrapped up in the lifestyle and like, you'd go to the AA club and it felt like going to a bar like it was laid out like a bar, there was a physical bar, it smelled like a bar.

And, you know, I get the role that, that plays. But, it was not allowing me to make movement forward in my identity change that I was going to continue to hold on to. Well, then I think back of like, there are a lot of things that identities that don't allow me to make that have not allowed me to make change personally.

And, you know, not necessarily just about drinking, but like. You know, being a young, radical Sean, that's an entirely long story for itself, but that. To embracing that I've, that I'm growing. And there will be times when I look back and I'm like, Whoa, why am I still holding onto that story? That was like 30 years ago.

That's not benefiting me anymore. And, and it's not who I am anymore either. It's just, I'm still holding onto that perception of myself. Sean doesn't do this because Sean is this person well, Maybe Sean isn't that person anymore. And Sean does do that, right?

Nancy: Yeah.

Sean: And to your point of incremental change and identifying, like, what does bold mean and allowing yourself time to identify what that is, and kind of like ease into and learn, define your terms in a way, but also acknowledge that we, our identity can change.

Nancy: [yes, and I think that's the powerful, that's the powerful piece. We just got to allow it. Yeah, you allow to see something different. And I think that's what that's, what's hard is the grooves are well worn of who we are. I am going to jump a groove and go over here and, and see it differently and get a different perception.

It can be scary.

Sean: Yeah. I did want to share a story around this thing of change. So, my stepfather, he is 70-something early seventies known him for a long time. He's been in my life for a long time. He's one of those guys who, who talks about the old dogs can't learn new tricks stuff, which I'm not a fan of that statement.

I think that it's bull puckey, but I tell you what. So this year on my birthday, he called me on my birthday. I've known the man for. 35 years and he called me for the first time ever. Wow. My birthday, just to say, happy birthday and talk to me. Wow. Now this is the same guy who says old dogs can learn new tricks.

I'm like baloney. Okay. So it was interesting though, that watching that change in him, felt really good. I mean, it was necessary. I mean, he still has his things

Nancy: Do you think that was intentional. I mean like, or just like a spontaneous, let me call Sean. Or do you think it was a, I went to be building a better relationship with Sean.

Sean: So I think it was, I want to be building to move better. Really. I think it was conscious on his part. I think that when this like a deep rut, when we're in ruts and change is hard. Yes. Acknowledge all those things, but there are the stories. Right down to I'm too old to make those changes. I'm too set in my ways to make those changes.

That is a narrative you're telling yourself it is not true. You can change up to the day you die.

Nancy: I would say that's. That idea. It's both and it's recognizing this is hard and I'm going to make the change anyway. And I think we tend to be like, Ooh, old dogs, you know, can't learn new things, whatever the phrase dogs can't learn.New tricks. Yeah. There you go. That is, you know, like that's either, that's a story. That's our story. Or the story is, Oh, every new year is I get a chance to do it all again, and I can change things. And that's another story. Yeah. And so being able to recognize, I'm telling myself a story and it's not working here how, and be kind and, and be like, Ooh, that's really kept me safe and secure.

And I'm going to challenge myself to do it differently. And so often I see people picking one or the other, I'm going to stick with the story and I'm never going to change, or I'm not going to honor the fact that, that, that that's a story. I'm not going to honor the fact that I have that as a belief, and that makes this extra hard for me.

I'm just going to keep plowing ahead. And I think that idea back to self loyalty is we need to be loyal to the fact that we have stories. And that they have played a role in our life, but we don't need to be loyal to the story.

Sean: That's really interesting. Yeah. That was another thing that I've been thinking about lately is, you know, thinking about the stories, thinking about, you know, things that I did when I was a teenager or in my twenties or something, and that, that person, like, I, I still contain these, those memories, but I'm not that person anymore that person's long gone

So after all of this, or one of the things that I did want to ask you. We've talked about what my plans are for the new year. What are your plans for the new year? Do one, have you made resolutions? Are you going to make resolutions? What are those resolutions? If not, why not?

And are you going to pursue this idea of themes and what's that theme? That's my question.

Nancy: Wow. Okay. I have not made any resolutions up to this point. I've been holding loosely. Some ideas. What has been happening for me is last week was really crazy with the start of the new year. And then this week has been a little easier as far as work is concerned.

And so I was like, Oh, I'm going to take some time and do some planning. Okay. So this is Wednesday and I haven't done. Any of that, I've sat down a number of times to do it and it just hasn't happened. And so, so that kind of just recognizing that that's been happening for me and I have a big fear around, I think that's why I jumped on your idea of, Oh, last year it kind of was helping you change the identity.

And then this year you're implementing the changed identity that, um, I went through. Part of my resolutions is to do some identity shifting and to see myself in a different way. I have really seen myself as therapist and coach and someone who that's my role. And even I have written. A few books and write regularly on my blog.

I don't see myself as a creative person. I see myself as coach, a therapist who does these other things to support being a coach and therapist. And so I would like to be kind of letting go, not letting go of the coach and therapist identity, not letting go of coaching and therapy, but letting go of that, being my only identity and seeing what it would be like to.

To embrace more of the creativity to embrace more writing and art in some form and, and doing things on, in my business, in my life on a deeper level that isn't, so this is what you should do because you're at this age or you've accomplished this, or you've done this, or this is the next thing on the list, but what do I want to do here?

What is this look like for me? And so that's what I'm experimenting with. I don't quite know what that's gonna look like, but how I've been explaining that I went to school, I was a therapist, you know, I became a therapist and that was kind of like, now I'm a therapist, that's my identity. And what if I had become a journalist or what if I had gone into creative writing?

Or what if I had, you know, I think I would have ended up in this same place. Of psychology being a prominent feature. And, but I would be coming at it from a really different standpoint. And so what if I came at my job from a different standpoint, from a different lens, from a different way of putting it out into the world.

So it's very loose. And so I feel very vulnerable and sharing this. I will be honest because it is so loose, but that that's kind of what I'm experimenting. That's kind of what I want the new year to bring is a more grounded, intentional. Creative side. Did I answer the question or did I dance around it?

Sean: it danced around a little bit, but I'm okay with that

Nancy: because I was trying to answer it. I mean, I was not trying to dance around it.

Sean: No, no, I appreciate that. But I wanted to say that's one of the things that are holding things loosely and acknowledging your humanity is you don't always have to have the answer. Sometimes the, yeah. I'm am I'm work in progress is the right answer.

Nancy: Well, it's just something that is fascinating to me is, is that idea of identity.

A lot of people would be like, why see, who is a writer? I already see you as being creative. I already see you as doing this, but I don't see myself as that. And so that's what I want to work on is me seeing themself as these things. And I think so much of what I do is just because I should be doing it as opposed to.

It's what I want to be doing, even if it's the same end result.

Sean: I'm wondering what you think about this. I see some real potential for sort of a reevaluation of what identity is here and that you are a thing. And you're not another thing. I love the idea. And you've heard me talk, I've talked about this so far in this conversation is the whole idea of the multipotentialite and that.

We are multifaceted and there are ways to embrace multiple interests and make our identity multiple identities. Not really, but you know, make it a little bit more multifaceted instead of I am a thing. And that's what I do. Um, I was thinking about Stacey Abrams, um, the woman Georgia, I learned recently because she enough herself running, doing politics.

She's. Her identity, we hold her as this thing. And she's, bad-ass at what she does. I learned recently that she's also a romance novelist. Yeah. And so she has this additional identity is that she's a creative writer and writes, and I love that, you know, that like that you can be more than one thing and.

That's one of those things I think about approaching the year, kind of broken out. If you sort of lay your year out, it allows for the space or is this like for right now, I'm going to focus on this and I'm going to put this other thing that I want to work on over here. And I know that it's coming and I'm not neglecting it and I don't have to resent what I'm doing now.

Nancy: So yeah,

that's what I love about it. Like, I think it's genius in getting away from the, the idea of, Oh, I need to be doing this, you know, like the jumping from thing to thing. Cause you don't want to forget anything. Yeah, leave anything out. I think this is awesome

Sean: Um, from a very tactical sort of like how you can actually approach this.

It’s been recommended that you have someplace where you can see it all in one place. And I did print out off the Google. I got like their year calendar thing where you see every month and every day, you know, just the spreadsheet so that I can break it out into like I can visually see what months are what, when I'm doing what for the entire year. And of course, like we said, loose is the theme in this conversation.

I'm looking forward to hearing how things go, how this goes for you. Because as you're laying out some plans, I feel like there's some room here to get a little bit more specific and lay things out of when you're going to focus on some of these things.

Nancy: Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I'm also a nine and on the Enneagram and I tend to, I don't do the seeding ball of resentment, but I do, I call it going unconscious. I do that a lot of, I don't, which sounds weird, but I kind of like sleepwalk. Through my life. And, and that's what I'm referring to.

When I say I want to be intentional. I want to be intentional. Like I keep, that's kind of been the theme. I keep saying over and over in my head, because I tend to just be like, this is the next thing it's March is what we do in March. It's April is what we do in April. And I, or, you know, Tara says she's doing this in, in the forum.

So I'm going to do that, you know, because she's a business mentor that I value and I don't check in with. Is this what I want to be doing right now? Not even in it, is this what I want to be doing, but let's be present the whole time you're doing it and not just go through the motions and much of my life.

I go through the motions and, um, and I'm tired of that and it scares the crap out. That's really why. Cause then I'm responsible for maybe that's why maybe I am a seething ball of resentment because then I can blame other people. I'm responsible for where I am in my career. I'm responsible for what's happening in my life.

I'm, I'm, there's more gravitas to it. There's more, it's not just I'll get to that someday. I'll do that at some point. It's more like this is it, girl, you're going to be 48 in a month. Let's do this.

Sean: I can really relate to that fear. And cause I would say that one of the reasons that I've chosen to choose expansiveness and thinking big, et cetera, as a theme is because of what you just said, because I too am, you know, I'm like here I am 44.

It's like, and you know, now what? And I'm here because of my actions. I'm here because of me.

Nancy: So, and just yesterday I was 40. Like, that's what it feels like, like, like it, it, the time just, it goes, uh, it feels like just yesterday it was March.

Sean: [Mine's 30. I feel like just yesterday I was 30. That fear sounds like, Oh yeah, that's a big one, but manageable.

Says the person without high functioning anxiety,

Nancy: but I think it is, it is. That's where I feel like I need to be with your idea, you know, because before talking with you, I was like, resolutions, suck 2021 is going to suck. Like here we go. We're just repeat more of the same.

Like I can get that curmudgeonly. What's the point? Aspect of, and then I can be the super ideal of, Oh no change is possible. And we're going to draw this amazing stuff. And I, again, like kind of like the monger and the BFF, I just kind of jump between those two. Thought processes in. And I think what you in this conversation have pointed out to me is this middle ground, which is not that that's going to be easy for me holding this middle ground, but the middle ground of let's be intentional.

Let's do a plan. Let's hold it loosely. Let's see what emerges, but let's keep coming back to this plan, to this idea, to, you know, be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid. Let's explore what that means and how I can hold that loosely and hold my feet to the fire. How I can have self loyalty around that concept and, and, and give some concrete themes.

Sean: that sounds great. You know, it immediately, like the last thing I wanted to say about that with this having concrete plans and thinking about things loosely every single day, we are presented with new variables, new information, and it would even whether or not you're running your business or you're running your life or walking down the streets to having, having made a plan and then not being able to adjust that plan no matter what happens.

That's not good. Right. Right. And so. But if, but in a way it's also exciting. I think that there's, I, I'm excited to see what happens for both of us just coming here, because this is, we will be checking in on this and seeing how this plays out.

Nancy: Yeah, totally. I agree. Totally. Yeah.

Sean: Well, Nancy, do you have anything else you want to talk about

Nancy: Oh, dude, I feel like we've got a counseling session in here which has been great.

Sean: I mean, that's, that's what we do.

Nancy: I wanted to give people a window into our conversations and that's totally what we did here. So thank you, Sean, for showing up and being so vulnerable and honest.

Sean: Oh my, my pleasure, Nancy, anytime.

Nancy: Again, I want to give a big thank you to Sean for coming on and sharing about his 2021 plans. It takes a lot of vulnerability to show up here, and I really appreciate him showing up with such authenticity. Okay. There are some big changes coming to the Happier Approach Podcast for a couple of years now, I've been wanting to change the format of this podcast into more of a narrative style NPRs podcast.

This means moving to a seasoned model and exploring one topic deeply throughout that season. So the Happier Approach Podcast is going on a brief two month hiatus. I'll be back in April with the new season, what we'll be exploring the topic of high functioning, anxiety, and self loyalty on a much deeper level.

I'm nervous and kind of excited about this new direction. And I hope you will tune in. But in the meantime, if you want to stay in touch, visit my website live-happier.com and sign up for my weekly Sunday newsletter.

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Episode 164: Practicing Self-Loyalty in the New Year - Part 1

In this episode, I’m chatting with my producer, Sean McMullin about change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

For years, the month of December was my month of debauchery. My BFF (the voice of false self-compassion) ran the show. After months of being told what I “should” do by my Monger in December, I could throw all the rules out the window. 

December was the one month out of the year that I gave myself permission to not listen to the shaming voice of the Monger: I gave myself the free pass of December because I knew come January, my Monger would drop the hammer and criticize me into submission.

I believed, on January 1st (well, 2nd really because on the 1st, I was still recovering from all the December merriment), I would magically become a new person. Someone who loved vegetables and hated sugar, desired to work out every day, easily abstained from drinking, and uber-productive.

I am sure you could guess how that went. Long story short, come mid-January, my Monger had a field day with all the ways I was failing. This all-or-nothing thinking ran my life for years---decades really.

But something changed, thanks to the practice of self-loyalty. 

December isn’t a magical month of no consequences anymore. Instead, I have days where I overeat sugar and drink too much caffeine and days where I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. And my worthiness isn’t linked to any of it. Whether I eat five sugar cookies or five carrots, I am still me: broken, imperfect, smart, funny, overly-sensitive, loyal Nancy Jane Smith. 

But the idea of change and resolutions still intrigues me. So on this episode, I am bringing back my podcast producer Sean McMullin. You might remember him from episode 155 and episode 161 where we discussed meditation and mindfulness.

This is part one of this conversation and I’m so excited for you to hear it. Here is part two!

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The definition of Self-Loyalty

• How self-loyalty works with the idea of change and resolutions

• Sean’s plans for the new year--combining a word of the year with quarterly themes

• How to hold your resolutions loosely AND actually make change

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• This Naked Mind by Annie Grace

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: And self loyalty was oh, I can be this person that procrastinates, I can be the person that has anxiety and I could still be okay with myself. I can still be like, oh, here we go. This is a hard time. And when I can say, how can I have my own back in this situation? It's a reminder of, oh, how do I show up for myself four years?

The month of December was my month at . The voice of false self-compassion ran the show after months of being told what I should do by my monger in December, I could throw all the rules out the window. December was the worst one month out of the year that I gave myself permission to not listen to the shaming voice of the monger.

I gave myself the free pass of December because I knew come January. My monger would drop the hammer and criticize me into something. I believed on January 1st. January 2nd, really? Because the first I was still recovering from all the December Marymount, I would magically become a new person.

Someone who loved vegetables, hated sugar, had the desire to work out every day and could abstained from drinking and be Uber productive. I'm sure you could guess how that went. Long story short come mid January. My monger had a field day with all the ways I was. This all or nothing thinking ran my life for years, decades.

Really. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane. Today, I would say thanks to the practice of self loyalty December. Isn't a magical month of no consequences anymore.

Instead I have days where I overeat sugar and drink too much caffeine and days where I eat lots of fruits and vegetable. And my worthiness isn't linked to any of it. Whether I eat five sugar cookies or five carrots, I'm still my broken, imperfect, smart, funny, overly sensitive, loyal Nancy, but the idea of change and resolutions still intriguing.

So on today's podcast, I'm bringing back my podcast, producer, Sean McMullin. You might remember him from when he was on the show, talking me through my meditation experiment this past fall, right after the first of the year, Sean and I met to talk about the show and through our conversation, we started talking about change resolutions and plans for the new year.

It was such a great conversation. And one, I think you will get a lot out of, so we decided to record it so you could listen to it. I'm excited for you to hear this conversation. It was so good. We broke it up into two parts. This episode is part one, and part two will be released next year. Keep listening to hear the definition of self loyalty, how subtlety works with the idea of change and resolutions Sean's plans for the new year, combining a word of the year with quarterly themes and how to hold your resolutions loosely and actually make change.

Hi, everyone. I'm excited today because I have brought back Sean, the producer of the happier approach here to talk with me. I'm going to have a fun conversation about self loyalty and resolutions. We have hit the new year where somebody. Everything was going to be magically different in 2021. I saw a Twitter thing that said I'm ready to turn in my seven day preview of 2021.

That just made me laugh. So welcome, Sean. How's it going? Great. I'm glad you're here. Yeah. Okay. So self loyalty and resolutions. I have a number of questions, but is there anything you want to ask? Yeah,

Sean: I wanted to lead offer. I think it's interesting when we encounter terms that we use. That we assume everyone is on the same page about, and everyone has the same understanding of what those terms mean.

And I'm a big fan of pausing and defining terms. So Nancy self loyalty. I think I understand what you mean when you say self loyalty. What do you mean when you say self loyalty so that I understand what you, what we're talking about specifically?

Nancy: The reason I love the term self loyalty is because I have a vis a visceral negative response to the terms self-compassion self-love self-acceptance and those terms, I think of.

Even self-trust I think they have been way over done. They have lost all meaning for me, like I just couldn't find any, ah, yeah, that's what I need to do in any of those terms. And then I started paying attention to a lot of my clients have loyalty is one of their values and they really know what loyalty is.

And to me, loyalty is no matter what. I'm going to have your back, no matter what happens, I will be here. I think Bernie brown talks about the Berry, the body friends. That's what I'm talking about with loyalty, my best friend, no matter what happens, I'm going to be there for her. And something terrible happened.

You would have to hold me back from. From driving to Kentucky and having her back

Sean: that it's at Dixie chicks song. It's the Earl's got to die.

Nancy: Yeah. That to me, yes. I love that song. That is the ultimate self loyalty song for me. It was recognizing I don't have that for myself. I don't have that. No matter what happens, I have your back.

It's going to be okay. Because my natural bent is to improve. Get better. Deny it or fix it. Those are the two kind of modes. So I run in and self loyalty was oh, I can be this person that procrastinates, I can be the person that has anxiety and I could still be okay with myself. I can still be like, oh, here we go.

This is a hard time. And so being able to switch. Idea another, I would say self loyalty and I say, have your own back. Those go to me simultaneously. And when I can say, how can I have my own back in this situation? It's a reminder of, oh, how do I show up for myself in a kind way?

Sean: Yeah.

Immediately makes me think. Additionally, about when you have people who have your back, the certain degree of. You can calm down a little bit. You can trust, you can relax a little bit. And it's one thing to have your attendance did on the flip of that of note having your own back. Yeah, I like that a lot.

Nancy: Yeah. For me, that was a, more of a game changer than self-compassion and then all those words, like I said, it was that idea of having that, that I can be my own soft place. That at the end of the day, I am not something that is broken or in need of repair or incomplete. I am me and I can still grow and change and quote, unquote improve.

But that doesn't mean who I am is bad.

Sean: And I think also allows for the room for when you do make mistakes. I remember I worked used to work on this construction crew and loyalty amongst them. They made, they were friends from their biker friends from way back when their kids and loyalty was everything for them.

And it was obnoxious actually, but they had this whole thing of look, you get into a fight or something and I'll have your back. You might be in the wrong. You might've made a mistake. We'll talk about that later. Yeah. But until that point, I'm there for you and that I'll be there for you because they took it into a kind of a interesting and not entirely healthy way.

But I like this idea that I think that there's also the space for acknowledging the error and the mistake and the imperfection and saying, yeah, that's there we'll address that when we'll deal with it. But first and foremost, You, I have your back self.

Nancy: Thank you for telling that story. Because if my friend murdered someone, I still would be questioning what's going on here and where are you in?

How can I help you face this? Not let me condemn you and not be there for you. Yeah.

Sean: For you. What you wanted to talk about was this connection between this concept of loyalty for the self, which I'm totally digging and how that plays out in resolutions. And specifically right now, new year's resolutions.

Tell me what you're thinking along around that.

Nancy: By the time this podcast comes out, it'll be mid January. And so not that the shine of the new year didn't get taken off pretty quickly this year, but the shine of the new year will definitely be gone by the time this podcast comes out. And I think that even though we know that the new year isn't a magical time, we still want it to be a magical time.

I still want the turn of the year to be like, ah, now I'm finally going to get my stuff together and I'm going to be Organized and have my goals and know my followup stuff and be able to stop eating sugar and all those things. And so that idea of looking at how can I have my own back and be wanting to change and grow and at the same time, practicing this idea of self loyalty.

Yeah. And I think that's that's a change because resolutions in the way they have been traditionally. Talked about is in the belief that I'm broken and that I will get better once I hit these resolutions. And I think that's why they inherently fail.

Sean: The it's the making the resolutions. That is the problem.

Or is it that our approach to the resolutions? That is the problem. Do we need to scrap news resolutions or do we just need to hold them a little looser and allow for. The mistakes and the, when we drop them and how to, what we do when we drop them into. Oh, is there anything to salvage from them?

Nancy: A client who said to me recently, I just like getting a reset and I get that you're coming out of the holidays.

2020 was hard. Let's just reset and see what can happen. So I think in that sense, having that idea of this is a new time. It was for some of us like September going back to school, it gives us that, Ooh, there's a refresh. And then I think that's awesome. But I think recognizing also ha. I think one of the bigger issues is we don't recognize how hard change is making changes is freaking hard.

When I often tell the story, I had this mentor who would scream at the top of his lungs, all change is incremental. All change is incremental. All change is incremental. And I remember being so like, we'd laugh when he would do it. It's true. Like all change is so it's so small. So the idea that I'm going to do a dry January and I'm going to stop drinking in January, but there's no self-reflection on.

How hard it is to stop drinking what I miss about drinking. What's not there anymore. You know what the drinking gave me like all of that stuff. And so we white knuckle our way through January, and then it's whoa, I did dry January. Now, February 1st, here we go. And we're back at it. And, or we'll try to be like, oh, let's do a couple of drinks or we'll set new rules, but we haven't had our own back in recognizing wow, dry January is easy or dry.

January is hard and that's just. One example. I've seen people on Twitter saying that after what happened last week at the Capitol, they've given up their diet, they've given up dry January. Everything went out the window because there was all this stress. And so I'm going to eat and drink to get rid of it.

And I think that. Part of the problem with resolutions is we're not looking at the whole person. And even I know like word of the year is a popular idea. I'm going to have a theme of the year, which I think awesome. Which is my thing I want you to about that because I think that's awesome and that also can get lost pretty easily.

And so it's like, how do we keep bringing back? This theme throughout the year. And that's how incremental change happens

Sean: I was thinking about this thing of one of the things that's particularly with dry January. One of the things that's challenging in my experience is we're doing a thing that we don't actually want it to be.

Yeah. Said, and when you're doing something you're like making yourself do a difficult in a distasteful and yucky thing that you don't want to be doing. And I think the point that's one of those places where I think resolutions starts to fail. Is a hundred percent convinced that we want to be doing these things.

Like when I got Annie Grace's book this naked mind was a huge asset for me and her whole deal. And she was using the work of other people, but she was. Liminal thinking and the idea of you take everything that is confronting that is creating a roadblock for you, barrier for you, some sort of mental position, some sort of way of perceiving something.

And you actually look at it and you say is this true? And like when it's the things, the reasons that you think that you should still, you have this long list and you can apply this to anything, really, any sort of behavior that you'd like to change. And as you're going through this, you can actually start like realizing what is.

I, I don't want to do this anymore. And when you get to that point where the changes, the change you actually want to make, as opposed to that distasteful thing that you're making yourself do, like suddenly I need to go to the gym and exercise, even though I hate exercising,

Nancy: yeah. because it's an external someone somewhere told me to do this.

It's not coming from within. Yeah. I may be someone who wants to be in shape and be able to work out an hour every day. I want that that's an external thing I want, but I don't want to do all the stuff that's required to get there. And I need to be honest about that.

Sean: Yeah. And there's where incremental change comes in is the being honest about that and being realistic about if I want to be that person who exercises every day, that might have to come in stages.

Nancy: Yeah, it reminds me of a client who she's working on. She picked the theme of all or nothing thinking, and that is something that she's working with.

Sean: Like confronting all or nothing.

Nancy: Yeah. Notice and loosen up that idea of there's a right way and a wrong way and all this stuff. And she'll notice every time she does all or nothing thinking, and she'll Vox me.

Here's a litany of all the times. And what's been amazing is oftentimes we want to fix a bunch of stuff. I want to stop my high functioning anxiety, but she just picked one place where that high functioning anxiety shows up and. Is noticing it in tons of ways. It shows up all the time in her life.

And I also hear that from clients who want to stop drinking. And they're like, I think about drinking all the time or just to notice the way it infiltrates your life and just having your back around that. And you just being like, oh, there it is. Again, there it is. Again, there it is again. And I think that's that idea of incremental change, but what has been fascinating to me is that by just seeing how much all or nothing thinking plays out in her life, She's making big changes because that one thing infiltrates a lot of things.

And so often we want to change too many things. We bite off too much of the apple instead of being like, I just want to really get to know the skin of the apple. That's what I really want to get to know and see that. And then I'll try to get all the way to the core.

Sean: Yeah. Back when I used to work at a brewery, I worked at a brewery for a long time.

Collectively we would all take, do dry dry January and. It was always so funny because everyone would show up on the, on January 1st hung over. And then they were starting as they're hung over. And then there was a bunch of us started doing anything where we would start the resolution a few days before the new.

Because per pressure on January 1st to suddenly you're doing this thing, it's so hard to do a thing where you go from never having been on a treadmill to, I'm going to put on five miles today. As of right now, this is who I am. We'd also, we lived on the Pacific coast and so we'd all go. And January 1st, we all go jump in the ocean.

That was a lot of fun. That would be fun. So to this idea, Of the word of the year or the theme of the year, which is the thing that I like to do. I've started, I've been doing that for a few years now, before I talk about that, another thing that occurred to me is another approach that I'm experimenting with this year is I'm breaking the year up into quarters.

I have. Many interests. I am a multifaceted multipotentialite Huddy like individual. I want to acknowledge that when I focus on one thing for too long, I start becoming resentful of that thing. And so this year I'm experimenting with. Laying out the year in three month increments where I stick to a specific thing for a period of.

Okay. And I've actually laid out most of the year of what reading material I intend on doing for the entire year. That's like the magically connected. So like some nonfiction that I'll be reading while I'm doing that. That's the magically connected to what I'm doing. And what I'm intentionally doing is I'm also making the themes abstract enough.

To have a little bit of wiggle room.

Nancy: So can you give like a, an example of a theme?

Sean: Movements is a theme. Place is a theme surface, and so I'm an artist. And so a lot of this has to do with my art and exploring my artistic side, my creativity. And so the abstract, I thrive in oblique connections and.

Loose definitions of where it's supposed to go, because it allows for improvisation and creativity. That's my shtick, and I get why some people would like something a little bit more solid, but that's my, and also so in a lot of ways I'm treating the next year is like a year of study of myself and my creativity.

So like at the end of every quarter, there's actually, I intended. A project, like there is a culmination of the work actually be like solidified. So there'll be a thing that like actually acknowledges the work. And I think that's something that would, I think that when you set goals to be like, okay, this is the thing that I want to obtain in this stretch of time.

And it's actually, because it's not, I'm going to do this for the next year. It's no, I'm going to do this for the next month. And at the end of this month, I'm going to have this goal. It becomes way more manageable. I'm going to walk around the block every day for the rest of the month.

Is way more yeah, I could do that.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that. You're not going to get bored. It changes it up. There's a focus in each time. It's like the client with the all or nothing. Thinking like you are focusing in on one thing and then holding your feet to the fire by the culminate.

Project, but I think in the spirit of all changes incremental. If the end of the year, you will have done all this different stuff. It may not change you, but you've experienced a variety of things and you've committed to it. And I think that's where a lot of people I know I get super bummed come March.

Oh, all these things I committed to, they're gone. I don't have them anymore. And that idea of shiny object syndrome and fear of missing out and, oh, I should be doing something else. The idea of having the self loyalty enough to be like, no, this is what I committed to. It's just for three months

Sean: And in theory this is something you want to do right?,

Nancy: so for me, that the patience and the drilling down, like I'll say to myself, oh, I really want to drill down. And really dive deeply into something. And I just was journaling about this the other day, but my emo, what I do on a daily basis is pop myself out of it all the time.

Yeah. I don't commit, I don't commit. And I think that's what I love about what you're doing. And then it's inspiring me.

Sean: Yeah. I hear some Monger talk going on too.

Nancy: There's some talk happening there and there is some truth. Totally, I think both are happening and it's

Sean: The Monger is not always a liar.

I don't Monger is always, most of the time there's a lot of lying going on.

Nancy: But that's where the biggest fan is going to be like, yeah, we don't like to commit, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It just means I got. Really put some parameters in place to keep bringing myself back. I think that's the idea of self loyalty is recognizing get commitments hard.

We don't need to beat ourselves up for that, but we really gotta be aware. The commitment's hard and FOMO is real. And how do I keep bringing myself back?

Sean: Yeah. A thought just occurs to me in a question for you. So do you think in some ways, this self loyalty that the. The biggest fan is a metaphor of the embodiment of that self loyalty.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah,

because for me, figuring out the biggest fan was so powerful because it was like before the biggest fan and that idea of self loyalty came to me, it was either like I'm either beating myself up or I. Giving myself an out, those were the two modes I was operating in all the time. I'm beating myself up in the beating myself up was I thought was moving me forward.

And so then to recognize, oh, I could have this biggest fan who can move me forward, hold my feet to the fire. She's she can be pushing me, but she's kind about it. She wants what's best for me. She's not just blindly. Pushing me. She's this is what we want. This is going to be good. This is hard.

Here we go. Let's do this. You don't want to get up early. You don't want to go walk. The dog you'll feel better when you do one of my things as I've been trying to do the morning pages from the artist's way. So I'd been trying to do morning pages, and then I don't want to do them morning pages, or you just sit and write three pages.

Dump your brain. And it's like the meditation thing. They don't want to do it, but then it makes me feel so much better. It's a connection to myself that it's, that, that is a theme that I want this year for me. I haven't mapped it out the way you have with yours, which is why that's inspiring to me, but to figure out how can I keep building that connection with myself?

Because my tendency is to always go outside and morning pages is helping me do that, but it's something that I fight almost every day. And that's where the biggest fan comes in to be like, sit down button, see, do this. You'll feel better, go not your big fat loser. You promised yourself you do this. Why can't you do it?

But just let's go, let's do this. We'll feel better. Come : on.

Sean: Another question for you about this too, as one of the things that I hear you, as you're talking about this. And I had said this earlier, that as I was setting out, as I was laying out my intended plan for this year, I'm fortunate that I don't deal with.

High functioning anxiety. I have anxiety. I'm not a perfectionist. Sometimes to a flaw, I could be a little bit harder on myself. I could use a little bit more of the biggest fan saying, Hey, yo, you should do something because most of the time I'm pretty consensus content. Just sit on the couch and knit and.

I'm very prone to if come middle of the year, I don't want to do it anymore. I was like, that was fun. And I move on. I don't beat myself up over it. And what I hear and I've observed in with people who do, who are high functioning with their anxiety, is that the failure really gets to them. The performance anxiety for themselves.

And that one thing that. The idea of setting out a plan for what you're going to do, and then have someone tell you and then hold it loosely as it's like, what the blankety blank do you mean by holding it loose? What are you talking about? You're not going to get anything done, right? Am I

Nancy: said that earlier on, you were like, and then you just hold it loosely.

I was like what the blippity blip is holding it loosely?. I was like, okay, hold it loosely. Like I have no clue what that means. (Laughter)

Sean: even, I heard myself saying, I was just like, I'm going to pause here and come back to this because, cause I know that my wife, whenever I say, hold something loosely, thinks LOSERS hold things loosely

Nancy: (Laughter)

They're there in lies. A big challenge though, right? Because when we're talking herself being self loyal, surely there has to be somewhere in there. There is that balance as a compromise, there is that position and posture that allows for you to push yourself towards change. But also to not totally beat yourself down when your human frailty kicks in, do you have anything to say to that?

Nancy: That idea of human frailty is what makes my skin crawl more so used to then does now soldier on, suck it up. I can do anything. Just give me the right map and the fact that there is human frailty. Is really annoying to me is one thing. But whereas you were talking about that idea of failure. I was thinking about, so last Christmas I was going to get into bread, making pre COVID.

I was going to get into bread making and I got this book and all the that go with bread making. And my first couple loaves, they tasted. Okay. But they weren't great. And it drove me crazy because there was no here's how you bake bread. There was you feel it and it feels marshmallowy. And it's super talk about holding it loosely.

Like the people that teach about how to teach bread, it's loose. It's very loose. And so I gave it up because how can I win? How do I win? I just want to know how to win. That's always my Mo how do I do this? And I decided let's just make bread for the enjoyment of making bread. Let's not make bread for the sake of.

Click this off the list. I'm a bread maker, but that there's going to be winning and losing all the way around. Let's hold this process loosely. And the more I baked bread of what marshmallow we felt like and what it smelled like when I had over proofed it and that sort of thing, it became more apparent to me.

And so like last night I made bread and it was the best. It was awesome. It was beautiful. It tasted really good. And in a part of me was like, oh I've figured this out. This is over, like I've done this. And then another part of me was like, dude, you made one good luck. But, we're still holding this process loosely.

There's more to learn. There's more to do. There's another loaf of doing the same thing. And so my challenge when I was this past year, when I was making the bread was I made the same bread over and over and over and over again, I didn't up my game. I did try a new kind. I just kept making the same loaf.

And then I figured that out, like I figured out all the techniques and now I can go do something else. And I think to me that. Big aha of recognizing this isn't linear. There's a lot to this. There's a lot to temperature and ingredients and there's all these unknowns. And so bread making has become a metaphor for me on how to do life in a bigger way, because it's, you gotta hold it.

Sean: I love that metaphor because it's a very simple set of variables, right? Yes. Water, flour, yeast, and hopefully salt. Yeah. And from there, the variables and fire and the complexity and nuance within a small set of variables. Yeah, that's great. I love that metaphor.

Nancy: That's one reason I've always strayed from art is how do you know.

Yeah. And it's interesting. So I think it is hard. That's why resolutions, the way you're talking about resolutions is the loose idea. Notice all your examples of resolutions were very loose. My resolutions were stopping, drinking, stopping, eating, stopping, they're more winning and losing their all or nothing.

Yeah. Either did this or I didn't. A huge thank you to Sean, because it takes so much courage to be willing to show up here and be so vulnerable. We'll be back next week with part two, where you will hear about my plans for 2021, along with how I plan to challenge myself this year.

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Episode 163: Lou Blaser and the Performative Nature of High Functioning Anxiety - Part 2

In this episode, I continue my conversation with Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast about the performative nature of high functioning anxiety.

Anyone with High Functioning Anxiety knows what I mean when I talk about the Swan Effect.

It basically boils down to the feeling of being so on top of it and accomplishing everything we set our sights on… compared to the overwhelm and exhaustion that we feel under the surface that no one can see. 

My guest on this series about the performative nature of high functioning anxiety is no stranger to the Swan Effect. 

In part one of this podcast, Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast and I talked about the Swan Effect and what it feels like to be calm on top and yet paddling like mad, metaphorically, underneath. We also discussed when Lou realized she needed help and what therapy taught her about anxiety and depression. 

On today’s episode, Lou and I continue the conversation around the performative nature of high functioning anxiety with Lou. For her, learning to recognize that tendency is a sign that her depression and anxiety have spiked and that she needs to step up her self-care.

If you feel like no matter how anxious you are that you need to appear on top of it, this episode is for you. And don’t miss part one, which you can listen to here.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why sharing your anxiety is so hard and finding the right pair of ears is essential

• The sneaky ways we sabotage ourselves

• Why therapy isn’t a fix-all and the disappointment in realizing Lou won’t be magically fixed

• The power of self-loyalty and changing how Lou had her own back was so important

Resources mentioned:

• secondbreaks.com

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book
  

+ Read the Transcript

Lou: One of the things that I know I had to do was I had to find people who are safe pairs of ears that I can talk to or not to be having long drawn conversations about the anxiety that you're feeling. It's just like today, Nancy, I just feel often it is just being able to say that. So I had to find those people because I didn't have them, or I didn't know that.

Because I was hiding and I wasn't talking about anything. So for me, that was one of the first things I had to do

Nancy: Today, I'm continuing my interview with Lou blazer, talking about the performative nature of high functioning anxiety. If you missed part one, I encourage you to listen to episode 1 61. First in part one, Lou shared her quest to be Swan, like calm on top and paddling, like mad underneath.

That is so common for those of us with high functioning anxiety, to feel like no matter how anxious we are, we need to appear on top of it for Lou learning to recognize that tendency is assigned for her, that her depression and anxiety have spiked and she needs to step up herself care. You're listening to the happier approach.

The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Keep listening to hear why sharing your anxiety is so hard and finding the right pair of ears is so important. How therapy is in a fixed hall and the disappointment Lou had in realizing she wouldn't be magically fixed the sneaky ways we sabotage ourselves and the power of self loyalty and how for Lou changing the fact that she now had her own back was so important.

Again, I want to give a big thank you to Lou. It takes so much courage to be willing, to be so vulnerable, to learn more about Lou and to listen to her podcast, visit her at secondbreaks.com.

Lou: It's funny. Sometimes I can almost tell when I'm talking to someone, if the person I'm talking to experiences, anxiety or depression.

So for example, when, if I say to someone I'm feeling funky today, or I'm sober off when someone's is why, what happened. To move that tells me this, where, as, for example, when I talked to our common friend, Sean, he never asked what happened. He just understands. Sometimes it's not what happened.

Sometimes it just is.

Nancy: Yes

Lou: A It has nothing to do with what happened.

nd there's relief in that. And then talking with someone and not having to explain because a happened because B happened today. No it is just today.

Nancy: if you can't say. Oh this happened. If you just say, I just is, and there's someone who is in that, you have to look like a Swan mentality, then they can't give you empathy.

So then you have to come up with the justification for why you feel the way and it just keeps it going yeah. I'm so glad you said that

Lou: I have to feel better. So I have to come up with the story so you can understand me.

Nancy: Yes. And coming up with that story. Lanes to be like, oh, my husband and I got into an argument and that's just to make them feel better so that they can come up with a way positive or change the story and be like, ah, it's no big deal or don't worry.

I'm sure your husband will be fine. Or to make you feel better.

It is true. And so I think that's one of the things I talk about a lot is about the idea. I think the key to this stuff is. Is building self loyalty.

Lou: I love that phrase

Nancy: because it's so many people are so loyal to everyone else. We are ends of the earth for them, but aren't loyal to ourselves and being able to discern, ah, here's a safe person that I can talk about my anxiety with versus here as a person that's going to try to fix me.

Yes. From have some form of self-love. Yes. Yes. Yeah. All of that. I think that's powerful. So the whole point of this podcast was to talk about the performative nature of high-functioning anxiety, which we have totally gotten that, which with the Swan analogy, which I never even thought of. I've thought of that analogy before, but I didn't see the link between them and recognizing that.

In the perpetuating of, I have to be a certain way. I have to look like a Swan. It is causing this even more to be perpetuated. We like swans. Yes, absolutely. And it's also something that happens. I think there's a flip that I know this when I'm working with clients and I'm curious if you experienced this with your therapist, the idea of I'm going to do this work and I'm going to fix this.

And then I can go back to being a Swan, but I'll be able to do it without all this anxiety

Lou: I love Brené Brown, there is this thing that she tells when she first spoke with our therapist. First time I heard it, I laughed. So hard because it was very close to what I have to be like, give me a checklist of what I must do.

What are the things I must do? What are the habits? What are the things I must do is I could check it off and I could be on my way to progress..

Nancy: Yes

Lou: Therapist was just shaking her head and just a smile to at me

Nancy: because the funny thing is with the Brené Brown, I'm certified in the Daring Way

And so big fan of Brené Brown. So when I first came and got that, I would get all these people, I feel would come to see me because they love Brené Brown and they just wanted to sit in the office and talk about Brené Brown. And share stories about her. No one wanted to do the work that she was teaching to do.

They just wanted to be like, I totally relate to Brené Brown. I totally get her,

but when I would bring it back to. Okay. So now we need to talk about vulnerability and now, oh, Brené tells the story about vulnerability and here it is.

Lou: Yeah.

Nancy: And the funniest part was that it took me a while to recognize that's what we were doing. because I'm like, Ooh, cool let's talk about Brené Brown, but I agree. And so we want that checklist of this is how we do that. This is how I can fix it. And then it gradually, eventually they recognize, ah, crap, this is ongoing.

Yes, this isn't something I can fix and I might need to make life changes because of it. As you did by leaving corporate America, there might be things I have to do to set up my wife so that this isn't a predominant factor.

Lou: Yeah, exactly. So for example, one of the things that I know I had to do was I had to outside of my therapist, find people who are safe pairs of ears that I can talk to, or I can even not to be having long drawn conversations about the anxiety that you're feeling it's just like

Today, Nancy, I just feel off today. It's just being able to say that. So I had to find those people because I didn't have them, or I didn't know them because I was hiding and I wasn't talking about anything. So those for me, that was one of the first things I had to do. Or where are my safe pairs of ears?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's very powerful to recognize

Lou: also bringing it back to the work of vulnerability that is being vulnerable, because it's you're telling someone you experienced this.

Nancy: And that's very vulnerable. Yeah. The irony of it is we all experience it to some level. To me, the monger voice she just runs my world. Like she's so freaking loud and to recognize everybody has a monger, but she's not as loud

Lou: Nancy, when you first talked to me about that. Or a couple of years ago, I swear to God. I was like, oh my God, these voices have terms and they are roles

Nancy: because the first step is recognizing, oh, that voice that's constantly criticizing me. That's not me. It's an actual. But there are people out there that just have a little, she's just she's there, but she's not screaming at them all day long. She's just kinda there. Yeah. And that was an eye opener to me to be like, oh, there's varying levels of this monger.

I just have a really loud monger. And there are other people that have one, but she's not running the show. She's just giving commentary here and there, back to the pair of ears. We need to find years of people who get how loud she is. And aren't just ah, just ignore it. Yeah, you can't ignore her. Like it's impossible.

I've tried that. That's the pushing it down and soldiering on that. We, that we've tried years ago, I was on your podcast, the second breaks podcast. And we talked about these voices and I remember you being super excited about the difference between. The BFF, which is that voice of false self-compassion that's go ahead, take a break, do whatever.

And the voice of the biggest fan, who she still holds your feet to the fire, but she's kind about it. Yes. Yeah. The monger who is you're such a loser, what are you thinking? And then a BFF forget about it. It's their fault. They're the ones that got us here or take a break in my view is where anxiety comes from because those two voices are fighting back and forth all the time.

And so we need a middle voice. That is the biggest fan saying, okay. Let's really be honest and look at this with some kindness, but I remember you being like, oh, thank God you have the biggest fan because so many people I know, fall victim to the BFF. And it was cool in the moment because I was like, as she gets this, because I fell victim to the BFFs.

Two. So tell me more. Do you remember that, first off?

Lou: Yes So my monger the voice is very loud in my head. If I have a BFF voice in my head, she's very timid and she doesn't speak up, but because the monger is just overpowering all the time. So for example, if I'm. Oh a real friend. And I'm telling her about how I'm feeling though, about myself or my critic.

I'm being very critical. The tendency is to be the BFF.

Nancy: Yes.

Lou: And there's a part of me that rejects it because I'm like it's false. It doesn't ring. True. So when you started talking about it, The biggest fan. I like, yes. Cause I know that voice is in my head, that voice, which is rational kind compassion, but also holds me accountable for the things I said I want to do.

I have that voice. If she just doesn't speak up very often or is always overpowered by the monger. But yeah, I remember that I love, love, love the biggest fan voice. And I said that was the voice I really want to cultivate and encourage in me, but that involves a lot of. Compassion self-compassion, which is something I continuously talk about things that you continuously have to work on for me, that's honest.

And then I began to also hear the BFF voice, not inside my head, but from other people, which is funny that it just doesn't ring true for me. Yeah.

Nancy: I only know what you mean because I, what I love about the biggest fan is, like you said, she's rational. Yeah. Yeah. Honest. I have a presentation later today and I've procrastinated.

And so I'm behind the gun on getting it done. And my biggest fan will say, dude, you messed up there. Yeah. Yeah. Procrastinated this long. She's not beating me up for it. She's not hammering me. She's just this is something we do that is appealing. And find a different way around this and look at that and how we can solve it.

It's not, oh, Nancy, you're such a loser. Here you go again. You're procrastinating or don't worry about it. You're putting a time, which isn't true. You're gonna rock it.

Yeah, I always talk about when I present is I have a very high BS meter. And so when someone says to me, you'll be fine, you're going to rock it. My BS meter goes up no, that's not going to happen. I'm not ready. And so then my mom gets even more fodder. Yeah.

Lou: Yeah. I love that. I remember that.

I love that, but it requires, like you said, Self-compassion oh my goodness. If I could be reborn with more self-compassionate that was the best thing in the world. What happened to me?

Nancy: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's when you start paying attention to the stuff like even last night I made garlic bread and it didn't go well.

And my husband was just problem-solving. He was just like, oh, did you try this? Did you try that? Super kind. And I noticed in myself being like, yeah, I tried that. Yeah. I know what you're saying. And finally, I was like, why am I getting so mad when this nothing, this is so nothing but that is because I had to admit it didn't go well, If it's that insidious with garlic bread, that means nothing.

Imagine when it's something that means something, we get any criticism or anything that comes in, we just cannot be calm.

Lou: No exactly. Because I think that we judge ourselves before other people can judge that goes on in my head. It's I'll judge myself before nine. And so you can judge me.

Nancy: Oh yes.

That's one of my biggest things is I go through everything that someone might criticize me for. I said that it doesn't take me by surprise when they do I saw that I know I'm a loser. You don't need to tell me I'm a loser. I already know it.

Lou: Tell me something though. So it's cause my experience with a BFF, because my personal, you have a voice is very timid.

You're saying that other people's BFF voices are loud. Like they would actually tell themselves, ah, don't worry about it. They're the ones.

Nancy: Ah, yeah, I had the same reaction when I realized that too is recognized. There are, I was noticing people would come into my office and they would have a really loud BFF.

They were like self sabotaging all over the place. They weren't accomplishing things. They weren't getting things done. They were blaming other people. There was a lot of gossiping and drama and true self sabotage of Over-drinking or picking bad relationships. And some of that, I'm not saying all of it, but I realize some of that is wherever there's a BFF.

There's a moment. You can't have one without the other. So it's that they are really aware of that BFF voice. That's telling them to take a break, but they aren't aware that the reason that BFF is telling them to take a break is cause their mongers so loud. I gotcha. Got it. So they don't yeah. Notice that they're being critical of themselves.

So they missed the part where they're being critical of themselves and they just engage in the part where they give themselves all these passes

Lou: and then people like us are all beating ourselves up and not giving ourselves a break.

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I can see it in my husband. He has a really loud BFF, so he can spend the day doing nothing and be fine with, it appears that he's fine with.

His Swan is he's super chill, but in reality, he's like hammering himself all day long. And the only way he can tone it down is by doing nothing and engaging in the BFF.

Lou: Oh, okay. I'm going to pick up your book again. I read that a couple of years ago, I'm going to reread it.

Nancy: It's a process it's going very slow, but I'm in the process of writing a new book where I talk more about this BFF character, because I realized now she plays a bigger role than I realize even in the sense of just how you said about when our ears that we go to talk to bring in the BFF that shuts us down.

Yes. They were like I'm not talking to you because you're just going to throw BS at me. And so meanwhile, then our monger just gets louder and louder.

Lou: Yeah. When you use the word sabotage. So for example, let's say I have a project that it's not going well. I would give myself a way out, like I would say, oh I didn't put in my.

A hundred percent effort. So I gave myself a way out, so not to feel so horrible about myself for not achieving what I want. As an example, if the project involved me showing up everyday on Facebook live, then I, maybe I will do that. And then I say, it's because I didn't show up every day. I give myself a way out.

Nancy: Yeah. That's what procrastination. Because the reason I procrastinate is when I get to the deadline, which is one o'clock when I get to the deadline, that's how I know I'm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if it's not good, it's because I hit the deadline. I did the best I could. I had the deadline, I had all this time yesterday to work on the presentation, but I was checking this and reading that, and I have plenty of time because it's too uncomfortable for me to be like, this is done.

The only time it can be done because it could always get better. The only time it's done is when I hit. Yes. Yes,

Lou: totally get that.

Nancy: So we unknowingly self-sabotage yes, all the time. And again, it's back to that monger BFF thing,

Lou: and this is what going on in my head. Can you imagine if you devoted all those hours putting together this presentation and it's not good?!?!

Spend an hour---cause I only had an hour.

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. But the thing I'm trying to reinforce for this particular issue with me is that because I took the time yesterday and what I came up with at the end of yesterday, wasn't good. Just for the record. Like it legitimately, wasn't where I wanted it to go.

And so then last night I had a conversation with my husband and we worked it out. And so then this morning I threw out what I did yesterday and I'm redoing. Trying to point out to myself. Hey, because of what happened yesterday, I came up with a better presentation. Ah yes. And so it doesn't justify the procrastination, but the message I'm trying to tell myself if I allow more time that gives more room for the rough drafts and the doing it wrong.

I'm not always going to be super inspired in the two hours before the presentation.

Lou: what I heard there, which I love is you giving yourself grace. It wasn't giving yourself it wasn't a BFF. It was giving yourself grace. Yeah. I love that one. It wasn't false feeling, making you feel better. It was giving yourself grace. Yeah. I love that.

Nancy: . I definitely feel like she has that idea of grace but for some reason we were not taught that. Yeah. Swim like a Swan and keep going. Yeah, this was fantastic. Thank you so much. I loved this conversation and I know people are going to get a lot out of it.

Lou: Thank you for making it comfortable for me to talk about a topic.

I don't know, always thought about it. Thinking that Nancy. I know you're one of my safe paid or ears and this conversation just proved that to me again, that it's safe here to talk about this. And so for allowing me to just say the words,

Nancy: thank you. Yes.

---

Episode 162: Lou Blaser and the Performative Nature of High Functioning Anxiety - Part 1

In this episode, I’m going to go deep into the performative nature of high functioning anxiety and talk with Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast.

Well, we made it to 2021! I hope you had a wonderful holiday season. I know I’m excited to be back at the podcast after a short break. 

One of the most challenging aspects of High Functioning Anxiety is the Catch-22 of the positive affirmations you receive for being so on-it and accomplishing so much versus the overwhelm and exhaustion you feel under the surface. 

Does this sound familiar?

This Catch-22 causes those of us with HFA to be extremely performative in how we approach our lives. The never-let-them-see-you-sweat idea permeates everything we do. 

On today’s episode, I’m going to go deep into the performative nature of high functioning anxiety and talk with Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast. Lou was kind enough to agree to come on and talk about her experience with anxiety and depression. 

Lou and I refer to that Catch-22 as The Swan Effect: you look beautiful and calm on the outside but underneath the surface you are paddling like crazy. I am so excited for you to hear this interview. 

This is part one of this conversation with Lou. Check back next week for part two! 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Lou realized she needed help

• What therapy taught her about anxiety and depression

• The signs for Lou when she needs to step up her self-care practices

• How both our larger culture and the culture of the corporate world keep us stuck in performing.

Resources mentioned:

• secondbreaks.com

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Lou: I'm able to now catch it before it happens. I'm able to recognize the triggers or sometimes it's not even the trigger. It's just like the change in my past change, thinking the change in my patterns or thoughts. And then I go, oh, okay. He's getting closer again. The man in the black hat until let me just double down himself.

Nancy: We made it to 2021. I hope you had a wonderful holiday season and I'm excited to be back at the podcast. One of the more challenging aspects of high functioning anxiety is the catch 22 of the positive affirmations you receive for being so honest and accomplishing so much versus the overwhelm and exhaustion you feel under the surface.

This catch 22 causes those of us with high functioning anxiety to be extremely performative and how we approach our lives. The never let them see you. Sweat idea, permeates everything we do. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. On today's podcast. I'm talking with Lou blazer from the second breaks podcast. Lou was kind enough to agree to come on and talk about her experience with anxiety and depression, Lou and I refer to that catch 22 as the Swan effect, you look beautiful and calm on the outside, but underneath the surface you are paddling like crazy.

I am so excited for you to hear this interview. This episode has a part. Yeah. And a part two will be released next week. Keep listening to hear when Lou realized she needed help, what therapy taught her about anxiety and depression, the signs for Lou when she needs to step up her self-care practices, how both our larger culture and the culture of the corporate world keep us stuck in performance.

I'm so excited today to introduce Lou blazer from the second brakes podcast, she is here to talk to us about her experience with high-functioning anxiety. I just can't say enough, Lou. I know this is hard and requires a ton of vulnerability. And so I really appreciate you being here. And sharing your story because I think any time we can hear someone else's story, it helps us, it just makes it less lonely,

Lou: yes. Yeah. And as I mentioned to you before we hit record, it's not something that I normally talk about in the grand scheme of things, but I will do it with you because you, and I'm comfortable talking about it with you.

Nancy: So how would you say let's just dive right in. How would you say your high functioning anxiety shows up?.

Lou: Okay. So whenever I think about anxiety or depression or any kind of mental wellbeing sort of topic, I always think in terms of before and after. So I call it before awareness. It was a long period of time when I didn't know what was going on. I didn't understand what was going on. So there was that before awareness and then after awareness, I call it.

And unfortunately, most of my life I was in the, before away,

Nancy: I was just going to say, what was the timeframe? What was, when would you say the awareness came in?

Lou: I know exactly the year it happened. It was 2008. So it was about 12 years ago now. And the reason is because I just felt like. I finally had to talk to someone.

So before that I was not talking to anyone. I was not seeing a therapist. I wasn't telling anybody about anything. Not my friends, not my family. I just felt like it was something that. You don't talk about Lou, cause that's maybe a defect there. And also a couple of things I grew up in an environment where you don't talk about these things.

and it's drama. You don't want drama. Do other people say, that kind of environment. So that was one. And then two, I was working in a very competitive as a lot of people of your listeners as well. I'm sure I was working a very competitive industry where the mantra was. I don't know if it's still the mantra now, but when I was there, it was awkward.

So it's either you're moving up the ladder or you're outta here. So talking about anxiety and mental wellbeing, something we normally talk about. And so those are the kinds of things that you or I hit. And then, like I said, around 2008, I just felt okay, Lou it's over and above. I just felt like I need to talk to someone.

And so I find the, on my own, it wasn't like somebody told me is that I had to seek help. It was just, I just felt like overwhelmingly, like the water is up to my nose already. The kind of thing.

Nancy: There wasn't like a breaking point oh my gosh, like it I can’t get out of bed, or I can't function in the world.

It was just your own like whoa this is too much,

Lou: This is such a cliche and people talk about this all the time, but it's the clearest analogy, that Swan that's like smooth sailing to the surface, but frantically paddling, that is the, I know it's a cliche, but that is the visual representation of what was happening to me.

And there was, there just came a point where the paddling. That was happening beneath the surface was just too much. And I said, okay, I need to just talk to someone. And I looked up my insurance service providers and I picked someone whose name sounded like, Ooh, seems like I know I liked this person's name.

I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't ask for a recommendation because if you ask for recommendations, that means you're looking for someone, right? Exactly. Fortunately for me, Nancy Remi. Thank goodness for this. The person I went to talk to was very helpful. I glad it was her. And that was. The beginning of cracking that wall of awareness that I began to understand things.

Now, having said that it's not, and I'm sure this is not your case either, or the people that you talk to. It's not like it talked to a therapist and woo

Nancy: I wish that was the case. That would be awesome. It

Lou: It was still a struggle For many, many years, after awareness.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I, one of my messages is I still struggle with this.

This is still a thing. It just is now I have coping skills around it that I didn't have in the past. My goal is always. Th the closing the gap of when I notice that I'm in anxiety and when I take an action and sometimes that's quick, sometimes that's days, a couple weeks ago, it was a couple of weeks that I was stuck in it and I couldn't get out of it, but sometimes it's like the straight jacket of anxiety and depression come over us and we can't get out of it.

Lou: Yeah exactly. That's it. And I think that is that gap that you're talking from the catching it, before you go into a spiral, that is the number one things that I learned from just being aware, because before I, I didn't know, I was. Catching anything I didn't know what to be aware of anything.

It just happens. And I know, and I'm in a spiral,

Nancy: you talked about anxiety and depression. Tell me how those play out for you.

Lou: So for the record, when I went to see a therapist in 2008 and we do. Questionnaires and examining and talking and dogging. And that's when I was first diagnosed was clinical depression.

I've heard of people having depression, but I didn't really understand what that meant or that, and this is going to sound very sad, but my impression of people who have. Anxiety disorders or depression is that they're catatonic

Nancy: talk about it more because that is common

Lou: That is my impression of people who are not able to be successful. Productive citizens. And then when I'm beginning to understand this, I'm like, oh my God, there's probably more of us who are experiencing it, but we're just not talking about it. Or we don't have the vocabulary or we just don't know how to talk about it safely.

That's when I began to understand these different things, I don't know necessarily how. Differentiate between am I going into a depression cycle? Or if this is a, an anxiety sort of moment, shorter moment, I just know the feelings that occur. Or the feelings that I begin to pay attention to. And I also have this is going to sound probably funny, but I have this visualization of my anxiety or my depression, and maybe it's wrong to interchange towards Nancy.

Nancy: But let me just say, I don't think it is. I love how you said that we get so caught up in what's the label. Like you said, I recognize these feelings. They're sending me down a spiral, whether that's a spiral of anxiety or depression, I just know something's off. And I got to take action and close that gap.

That's why I asked you to talk about it. Cause I think labeling it doesn’t Matter. It's just recognizing something's off and it isn't. Okay. And let me do something

Lou: Thank you exactly. Cause that's just another layer of anxiety.

So I have this I learned this when I was out regularly seeing a therapist where. I have this man in a black suit with a black hat. And I always say that this man is always with me. He is always in the room. It's just the most of the time he's far away, but sometimes I can feel, I can see him coming closer.

And that's when I knew. This is my acne anxiety flare. My depression is flaring up and I have to keep him at bay. He has to be out there in a corner out there where I can see him and he's out there saying it that way, but that is how it comes across in my head.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that because that's what I love about my characters is they give for me that same idea of, oh, I, it takes me. It takes out the personalization that there's something wrong with me. It's like that guy and he's getting closer and I got in here.

Yeah. I love that. I love that two things. I want to go back to first. I want to go back to the Swan analogy and you were like, ah, that's, it's overdone and any, all of that. Things that are over done. They're over done for a reason, because it is so common. And I think that it's so unfortunate how our society, we still really value the Swan.

Oh, we don't want to see what's underneath. And so it gets reinforced. Yes. Keep being okay. Keep being okay. Because so many people have to have a. A moment of breakdown, like everything comes crashing down before they will recognize AF problem. And that's why I love that you were able to recognize it ahead of that.

And I think that's important. And then the other thing I wanted to say was how you said. Just to draw attention to the idea that people don't have the vocabulary, or they don't have a place to talk about it safely, because I think that is so important. And that's one reason I love your analogy of the man with the black hat and the idea of the monger and the BFF, because it's giving us a language that isn't emotional as anxiety and depression, we have stigmatize those. And I know there's a lot of work in trying to de-stigmatize them, but I also think there's some help in changing the language.

Lou: I think there's also a sexist element of it. So there's this story. This was actually the time when I finally saw the therapist.

That's why this story was one of the first things I told her. We had this very intense project and with lots of problems and lots of headaches, but it was very visible to the company and the CEO and the board of directors. They were all eyes on this project that I was leaked to. My boss was leading and I was in the team.

And then. At the end of the day, he would call me in his office and he would tell me how nervous he is about this project, how anxious he feels about this project, how you know, he's worried about what is going to do to his career. If this project goes, Hey, why are all these kinds of things? And I am there to listen to dally.

Don't worry. Everything's going to be okay. We are working hard. We are meeting the milestones. Don't worry. We have a plan for attack. I am not. I'm going to say aloud, although that may be unfair, but I couldn't reflect the same thing. First of all, I felt like my role is I have to be absorbing it. And also a woman sending those things will be described.

Oldest stuff that we are described as when we are pulling those things. And so all the more I have to be more like in control and we have a plan and don't you worry, and I got your back and that's why you have me here. And meanwhile, I go home and I have the exact same feelings he was talking to me about.

So I think there's also that layer to it that as women we have to be, or I had to be speaking for myself, I felt like I had to be careful about how it comes across to other people so that they won't label me as emotional or drama queen or not being able to handle stress or see, she's not up to the leadership, those things.

Nancy: Ah, If the listeners could see me, I am nodding emphatically over here. But no, that is an awesome point because I think know it's both sides of the coin. It's I have to be supportive in my life who are flipping out and I can't flip out. It's a double whammy. And I think that sexism definitely plays a role there.

I think that a big part of how this plays out is that we swallow these lies without ever having anyone be like, think of it a different way. And so that's a little bit, what I want the podcast to be is a way for people to be like, oh, it doesn't have to be like, yeah, this is not something I need to swallow all the time.

Lou: I wish that I could say that if I was a little bit braver. That I could have poked about it more that I could have been more transparent about it. But I say I wish because to be honest, I am not sure if I had been bravery, if I had been integrated, been received well, or if it would have been a safe environment.

So I think that. For me, one of the most important things that happened was seeking a therapist because that was the safe environment to be able to talk about it. And then as I learn more about it, I read more about it. Then I said, oh, there are other people. And then meeting other people who like you in our community that we both belong in that weekend.

Talk about this things and it's safe and nobody's going to judge you and nobody's going to say, oh, Nancy is flipping out. And so that's safe environment. I don't know. I'm not in corporate America anymore. So 2014 I stepped away. I would hope that these days it's a little bit more open for example, I say that because pick Harvard business review, like when I was climbing the ladder, there, weren't a lot of mental wellbeing articles written in Harvard business.

I read those articles now. So maybe there's more openness. Now, maybe there's more awareness now about these things, that these are things that need to be getting discussed or managed in the workplace.

Nancy: But I'm glad you said that because I think our tendency is to, when we. See a different way of doing it, then we're like, oh, I need to tell everyone about this, or I'm not being brave, as you said.

And I think being brave is recognizing where is it safe to talk about this? It's recognizing, going into the corporate, going to my boss and being like, Hey, I'm in therapy and I'm learning this and this. Not safe, not a good plant, not smart. So that idea, we go to that black and white thinking of, oh, I'm gonna, I learned this, so I need to be brave and share it with everyone.

I think if we could just start talking about it in the areas where we're safe. And practice building up that resilience around it then potentially maybe with a capital M we can head out into the world and start talking about it differently. Exactly. Because there are a lot of messages around it. Not doing it.

Lou: Yeah, but sometimes I feel on defense because there is this message or sentiment out there that for those of us who understand that we should speak out and speak up about these things and advocate these kinds of conversations. But there's also recognizing that it could be harmful if you are just having discussions, Willy nilly about it.

Things are not paying attention to where you're having these discussions. Yeah. Let's talk about it openly all the time.

Nancy: Yeah. I agree with you. You're not going to go to someone who is completely closed down about these topics and start talking about it, but to be open to recognizing others a window here, let me share, ah, I was a Swan.

Yeah.

Lou: For example, I'm just being perfectly candid, like back in 2004, 2005. If you walked up to me, Nancy, and tell me, can you talk about your anxiety? I'll be like, Nancy, what are you talking about?

Nancy: Yeah.

Yes. I'm not going there because I would even agree. I would agree. I agree with you. I would feel the same way and I'm a freaking thing. No, I would have been like, I don't have anxiety. I help people with anxiety. It's not my thing. I'm a Swan ruined through. There's no paddling underneath, even I am just together.

Lou: Yeah. I love that word. I am together. Yes,

Nancy: because that's the biggest challenge, I think, with all of this, but specifically with the high functioning piece. That we get so much praise for being a Swan to admit that we're paddling so hard underneath is a point of shame. And to admit that we're struggling with paddling underneath is a point of shame.

I was a major off for me when I realized with food where I want to be with food is to eat whatever I want and not have any ramifications. It's not that I want to get my eating under control. I went to magically be able to eat whatever I want because I value people that can eat whatever they want and not gain weight.

I think they're way cooler than me. They figured something out and it's just fricking metabolism, but the same is true that I want to be able to do all the stuff and be on top of it and be a Swan. But it's a negative that I'm paddling so hard underneath.

Lou: Yeah exactly. Talk about that paddling thing. The funny thing for me, so I started seeing a therapist in 2008, then I was regularly seeing her for years.

And so that was obviously helpful and I was starting to read things a bit more. So my awareness, my understanding of it. But the thing is that really what's helped me is when I stepped away from corporate America. So let me just make sure I clarify that it's not that stepping away from corporate America is this illusion.

It is this because as soon as I stepped away from corporate America, I no longer had to perform they in day out for other people. Together image before when I was going to the office every day, Monday to Friday, or sometimes when they just Saturday, whatever it was, I was all on, but then I stepped away and I started doing things for myself and start my own business, this pressure to perform for others, to look together all the time disappeared overnight.

Yeah. And then I started to feel like, okay, I can allow myself to feel this way and all those other pressure disappeared over that, that to me was very helpful. And then I began to be able to be more. Aware of when it's happening that catching it because I'm allowing myself to feel it, whereas before it was like, it's always there's always this defenses up mechanism so that I'm not even really feeling because I'm fighting it all the time.

Nancy: Because it wasn’t safe to feel it

Lou: Its wasn't, right? But as soon as that thing where I'm allowing myself to feel it, so then I'm able to now catch it before it happens. I'm able to recognize the triggers or sometimes it's not even the trigger. It's just like the change in my past to change thinking the change in my patterns or thoughts.

And then I go, oh, okay. He's getting closer again. The man in the black hat until let me just double down himself.

Nancy: That totally makes sense. Cause I think that it is that idea, which is first the chicken or the egg because society, culture, corporate America is broken in this belief that we all need to be beautiful swans and to be mentally healthier and to be better human beings that we can't have that image.

And so it doesn't fit in. With what the larger culture wants us to be. As you said, I'm not advocating that everyone leave corporate America, right? It's a lot harder. The change, the behavior. If you are immersed in, you have to be a Swan. You have to be a Swan. You have to be a Swan. You have to be a Swan.

Yeah. I also wanted to comment on you catching yourself. You said it's not a trigger. And I think that is important to recognize too. That it's not like it gets triggered it's sometimes it does, but sometimes it just comes on. Sometimes it just the anxiety and the thoughts and the, it just overwhelms us, so I will say sometimes my inner critic, just as louder than other days, the monger is louder. And so on those days she can come in and it's like a straight jacket that she puts on me. It just happens.

A huge, thank you to Lou. It takes a lot of courage to be willing, to be so vulnerable.

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