Episode 128: Eating Your Anxiety
All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Erica Drewry a Registered Dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor avoidance, and how it plays out with food.
Chocolate, ice cream, chips, cheese balls, Ho-Hos, and Junior Mints. My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a global pandemic–at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats.
When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses, my first thought was: Oh no! Do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry, wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown.
I immediately opened an Instacart account and started making my list.
I was going to be ready for what was coming.
All this month I am talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.
Today I am talking with Erica Drewry about avoidance and how it plays out with food.
Erica is a registered dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of Aligned Nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in person and virtually.
This topic is very personal to me and I am so excited for you to hear our conversation! It is an open and honest (at times very vulnerable!) conversation about food, anxiety, and avoidance. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story of how I use food to avoid.
We recorded it just 2 weeks ago so it’s a message of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic that couldn’t have come at a better time.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
What might be behind our tendency to eat when we are bored, and why I filled my Instacart with junk food
How binging and restricting go hand and hand, even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting
What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society
What role society plays in our relationship with food
Resources mentioned in this episode:
+ Read the Transcript
Erica: So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?
Nancy: When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses.
My first thought was, oh my God, do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry. Wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown, I immediately signed on to Instacart and started making my list. Chocolates, ice cream chips, cheese ball Ho-Hos. And of course, junior mints.
My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a pandemic, at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats, I was going to be ready for what was coming.
You are listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and release. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.
All this month. I’m talking with the experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today, we are talking about avoidance and how it plays out with food. This topic is very personal to me, which you will definitely hear in the interview.
Today’s guest Erica Drewry was sharing that her favorite interviews around food. I, when the host asked her own personal questions. So, I took that as an opportunity. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story and how I use food to avoid. Erica is a registered dietician and a certified, intuitive eating counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of align nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in-person and virtually. I am so excited for you to hear our conversation.
It is an open and honest and at times, very vulnerable conversation about food anxiety and avoiding it. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So, it’s messages of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn’t have come at a better time. Erica and I talk about what might be behind our tendency to eat when we’re bored and why I filled my Instacart with junk food.
The answer might really surprise you how bingeing and restricting go hand in hand. Even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting. Because I didn’t and I was really worried. What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society and society’s role in our relationship with food.
I am so excited to have Erica drew here to talk to us about nutrition and eating and all that stuff that comes as a big one for avoiding. So welcome, Erica.
Erica: Thank you for having me.
Nancy: I have to share that Erica is a friend of mine, so that’s an even more fun of an interview to do because we talk frequently.
And so, I’m really excited to have her here and be able to pick her brain about this particular subject. Okay, so I’m just going to dive right. In recently, you wrote a post about eating when you’re bored and here we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic and boredom for some of us is, I guess, boredom and anxiety.
Because not all of us are bored. Those who are staying at home with their kids and dealing with all that. But I really want to, I really want to hear your take on that. And tell us more about that blog post or, your, I gave you multiple questions there with the boredom and the COVID-19, but let’s just dump into boredom and where you can dive into the COVID-19.
That’d be cool.
Erica: Perfect. Yeah, I think what has happened is that with COVID-19, it’s exacerbated underlying things that we might be feeling in our day to day. And so, I am somebody that doesn’t believe outright in boredom eating, and the reason for that. And I think as a therapist, you will appreciate this.
I think there are better questions. And I think the one I, when I’ve been working with clients over the years, I’ve realized that boredom eating is a blanket state. There’s usually something else going on. And so, it’s not that people don’t feel bored, or they know something’s off, but I think what is actually happening is that they’re disconnected in some way.
So always say, you’re not bored, you’re disconnected. And so, let’s find you some better ways to address that because, typically the antidote to boredom. Finding something to do, right? Whether that’s a hobby or a passion or quality time with someone you care about, but we may be missing the point with that, and so I always say, some of the better questions are going to be thinking about whether yeah. Life balance in your life, the big parts of your life, job relationships, money are those in balance because that could be something that’s leading you to be disconnected from yourself or a bigger worry where you might be turning to food.
Another thing we could be thinking about is, do you need more rest, or do you need more play, or do you need something to look forward to doing you need a change of scenery? So, it was like again, with boredom eating, we may not be addressing some of those things. You may just be distracting yourself when you actually need to take a nap.
Okay. And then another thing to think about with boredom eating is when. You might be avoiding something. I figured we could dive into that a little bit
Nancy: Yes. That I was, but yeah, I think that’s a big one right there.
Erica: It is. And from talking to my community and then in my work with clients, I think that’s one of the biggest ones is that you are avoiding something.
So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?
Nancy: How do you I know even with this, COVID-19 like we had gone to the grocery store, we had gotten the necessities and then once, our governor put down the order that we were going to be here for two weeks, I like, it was my first priority I had. Fill up my Instacart. I had to get ice cream and chocolate. And like even a couple of days later, I said to my husband, I don’t know that I even got like enough real food because I’ve bought so many snacks and was just like totally sugar buying. I recognize that was happening, like I knew when I was shopping on Instacart that I was doing it, what would you recommend to pull back?
Erica: Yeah. It sounds like that kind of scarcity and anxiety was triggered. So, we think, okay, we’ve got to stock up. And then we also have an abundance of food around us that we may not usually have, I’ve talked with several people who were like, oh, I don’t keep that much stuff in my house because then I’ll eat it all.
And so now you’re in this situation where, given the orders that we were given, we want to be careful and go ahead and have food that’s available for us when we need it. And. That can be really uncomfortable. How do you deal with having more food on hand than usual or foods that you might not have as much of, and you’re right?
And that you can’t have as many foods that are going to expire within days. You might’ve run out of salad last week, but you still have chocolate because it’s more shelf stable. And I think we get a lot of those messages of, always shop on the outside of the grocery store, all the fresh things.
Here we are having this challenge now; we really needed to learn how to like stock a pantry and have snacks and have things in our freezer and maybe eat things that are more convenience foods or more processed, and that are less perishable challenges. Some of those expectations.
Nancy: that’s what it is.
So, for me has always been so hard with food and it is a way I avoid, it totally, I can think of nothing that brings me more joy than, having a bag of Reese cups and being able to sit on the couch and just have permission to eat as much as I want. And sometimes that’s okay.
And it’s unhooking all the old food rules I have. And I have a ton of them from, being in college and being super militant and doing weight Watchers and losing 30 pounds and then regaining it. And, like all that stuff piles up over time. How do you separate out the food crap from the what’s really going on mentally and emotionally?
Oh, I know I’m totally going off script here and I apologize.
Erica: Okay. I think it links up with where we wanted to talk about that kind of shoulds. And so, it’s a great question because it is a lot of work to sort through both, and how do you know whether it’s all of your food rules rearing up and all of the leftover diet crap that you’re dealing with.
And then when is it that you have a legitimate need for something? And that’s why I think when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, I see it as nutrition as a form of self-care because you’re looking at, oh gosh, you know what a day it’s been, I’m really uncertain about tomorrow.
I’m feeling anxious. You’re not committing any crimes by eating some Reese. But you’re doing yourself a disservice. If you’re not eating Reese cups and asking yourself, what do I need right now? Is it, some fresh air? Is it, completing a task that you’ve been avoiding or dealing with some feelings that you haven’t been wanting to feel?
It’s I think we can do both. And that’s where we don’t want to overly pathologize and should all over ourselves for emotional eating. Because we’re emotional beings, we’re going to be eating and feeling emotions at the same time. And you can soothe with food. It’s just relatively ineffective.
It’s really the only way that you can deal with it.
Nancy: That’s helpful because it is just, I was even thinking, as you were talking, I was thinking like I have all the rules. And I never stepped back to say, to ask myself, how does you know, it’s a relatively recent thing for me. I would say that I am recognizing like, when you’re eating the Reese cups girl, your stomach’s upset.
You don’t feel good, but not, but even some of that is still blaming it on the food. I don’t stop to pull back and say, what’s really going on. What are you trying to avoid? What are you missing? What’s the tough thing you’re trying to get away from, which I think is what you’re saying?
Erica: absolutely.
And you’re seeing it as an indicator, I’m reaching for the bag of Reese cups and, am I hungry? Yeah. This is snack time or no, I don’t think so. And then you proceed, you, you can choose to proceed or not, and neither way is right or wrong. And so, then if you proceed, it might be reflecting on it afterwards.
Gosh, I’m not feeling so well. I wonder what was going on before. I did that. And I wonder what I need to do now. And it’s like honoring both that there’s this dynamic interplay between the food and the emotions. And so how do you handle like feeding yourself in a way that feels good. And then how do you handle taking good care of your emotional health.
And making sure they don’t get too interconnected
Nancy: Because all of the Weightwatchers and all of the diets, or even, healthy eating plans, whatever you want to call them, they’re still pulling you outside of someone else’s telling me what to do. Yes. I’m not listening to myself. I’m following someone else’s rules, which is why for people with high-functioning anxiety that is so attractive because we want someone else to tell me what to do.
If someone else tells me what to do, I don’t have to think about it, and I can just follow the rules if I know I’m doing it right. And it’s really clear. And so for me, that has always been so hard since I recognize that if I follow it, one of those plans that happens, but I haven’t been able to figure out what to do instead.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re highlighting a really important concept of that kind of external-internal influence. And so, when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, it is starting to see the difference of external-internal. And that’s where kind of recognizing some of these old food rules oh my gosh, I’m feeling guilty about eating this snack.
And I just realized it’s because it’s 8:15, and I, once upon a time, I heard that it was bad to eat after 8:00 PM. External feeling that guilt. And then at that point, you can go, oh my gosh, that was just a silly food rule I had from way back when I think talked about it in the nineties. And it’s not applicable to me at this moment in time.
And then you move on, but it could also, yeah. Yeah. I think that when it comes to sorting through some of that. It can, when I’m working with people through this process, you feel that. Kind of devil and angel on your shoulder where you’re going back and forth. So, it’s almost like because you were used to giving so much of your power away.
Give me the program, give me the I’ll follow it. I’ll do whatever. Then you’ve lost out on your own autonomy. So, it’s almost like you’re suddenly trying to figure it out for yourself, and you feel like you have a blindfold on, and earmuffs and you are just trying to sort it out, and you have almost no structure.
And that can feel difficult. And that’s why, I guess when we were talking about bored a minute earlier, one of the questions I always recommend people also ask themselves, was I actually hungry? And so, if you’re regularly eating very chaotically, then that can feel difficult to know what is going on.
Although a specific structure, but if you’re, quote-unquote, emotionally eating at 8:15 PM and you had a yogurt for lunch and no breakfast, then let’s not forget that you’re hungry and that you’re again, not committing any crime. Or emotionally eating, you just happen to be hungry and have a certain feeling about it.
Nancy: So, go back to the beginning. And like that, when we think of emotional eating, a lot of times, like for me, I think of bingeing, like I like, it’s an uncontrollable, I’m going to go from ice cream to Reese cups. I’m not necessarily like for me; it isn’t necessarily like I’m going to drive through the drive-through and get.
10 tacos and then go to KFC and get a bucket of chicken. It’s just like I’m overeating.
Erica: It’s all in this range. I see on the spectrum.
Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense, but then emotionally, it takes a lot of different, it’s not. It’s also restricting which you talk about, which I would never like that didn’t, which I can look back now in my twenties when I was restricting and my thirties and be like, oh yeah, that was equally heady.
It was equally as bingeing. So, talk to me about that a little bit.
Erica: Yeah. It’s you’re hitting on something important, right? In terms of where people will cycle through different behaviors with food. So, it’s pretty common that we start looking for help with our eating problems. Once we do start bingeing and most people are pretty satisfied with restricting unless it becomes less, it becomes a significant problem where they’re found out by their parents or they’re thinking about food so much that they can’t pay attention in their regular lives, or maybe they.
Get an overuse injury due to malnutrition, or they think too much of their life has taken up thinking about food. But most of the time, yeah, people have a combination of all the above and in the way I do divide, it is thinking about, are you someone that tends to turn towards food when you’re anxious or away from food when you’re anxious?
Because what’s happening biologically is that when we’re anxious, blood is being shunted away from our intestines and we’re in that kind of fight or flight. So, some people, their appetite immediately goes away. And there they are like, I’m not hungry for breakfast. I know I should eat it, but I just can’t.
And then other people are nervously picking or grazing or snacking or eating beyond fullness, but it’s all in a similar. Emotional response. It’s just, it plays out differently.
Nancy: Okay. That’s fascinating. I just think it’s when I thought of that, I was like, oh yeah, and both are, you’re still outside of your yourself.
Erica: It’s not normal. That’s what I say to my clients who tend to go towards restriction and they’re trying to heal their food relationship. You’re like I didn’t feel hungry. That’s abnormal that you typically breakfast and then one day you’re not hungry.
It’s important to check in with yourself. Hey, what’s going on? Why am I not hungry for breakfast? That’s odd. There’s something off here. And I think that’s where the cultural stuff comes in where it’s just going to say that. Yeah. So, praise that restriction that restraint. And so, people have to really talk themselves into going against that because it feels wrong to eat.
When you’re not feeling those hunger cues, but like we were saying, it’s that same level of disconnection, your head and your body are not connected in that moment. That’s why sometimes you go into that trance, and then you wake up and you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m so full. I’m so uncomfortable.
Why did I eat all of those things? But in the moment, you were disconnected until you. Woke up and came present again.
Nancy: Yeah, that’s so true. And I was because I was going to say there’s so much positive for restricting. All the diets are teaching us to restrict, and I have power if I restrict and that becomes a, a power trip like.
If I can do it, then I’m a better person than the person that has no control.
Erica: Absolutely. And everyone who is the type of person that feels out of control, wants to be the person that restricts, but the people who restrict want you to know that it’s just as bad. It’s just as miserable.
Nancy: Oh, that’s good to know.
Yeah, because even yesterday I noticed, I was laughing. I was laughing about it because my reaction to anxiety is usually to graze and yesterday, or the day before they all run together at this point. Yeah. What day is it?
Erica: It’s a day.
Nancy: I was so anxious. I wasn’t hungry, and I, and it was, and because that’s unusual for me, I said to me, I really stopped.
It was like, girl, you got to settle. You are so hopped up that you, your stomach is so there’s so much adrenaline going on that you’re not hungry. And so I was, and because I hadn’t eaten, it was making it worse. Absolutely. And so, it was just spinning. Yeah. And I think that’s just so that again, but because it’s unusual for me, that’s how I recognized it to change.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve actually noticed that quite a bit with my clients is that. If even if they tend to do one thing, a different type of stress, or maybe even a more significant stress will lead to, hey, I usually turn towards food and for whatever reason, I haven’t been hungry at all. Sometimes that indicates that we’re in really unchartered territory here.
There’s a more significant stressor, yeah. That’s just how your body’s responding.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because I can remember like when my dad was in the hospital, I didn’t eat, it’s I have to be really extreme, but if I’m just going through life, I tend to the food is what I crave. Yeah. And I know one of my biggest reasons for craving it.
, you talked about the devil and angel, and I talk about the monger and the BFF, and I know you’re familiar with those characters. But my BFF gets is all about the food, go ahead, go through Starbucks, get the crappy Chino, go ahead. Stop at Walgreens, get the bag of Reese cups.
I know on my way to work a lot of times I am like fighting myself. From stopping to pick up food and it’s just purely for the reward. Yeah. It’s that’s all it is. It’s just a little bit of a, I’m being a bad girl. Is that common? What’s that about? Do you have any thoughts on it?
Erica: Yeah, I a hundred percent. It is very common because it’s almost like you do swing between these extremes of okay. So even if you’re somebody who doesn’t tend to restrict regularly. If you’re typically turning towards food, you’re still having restrictive thoughts. The thoughts that say don’t do that.
You better not. Why would you do that again? And that, that monger voice is what is creating that feeling of restriction and that feeling of deprivation. So, we respond to the deprivation with. Let’s go ahead and take care of that. Let’s go ahead and treat yourself. You’ve earned this, and some of its perceived, some of it’s real.
So sometimes it may be, oh, I only ate a little bit for lunch today, so let’s swing through dairy queen on the way home. I really earned it. And then other times it’s just that perception. Where maybe you’re having a negative body image kind of spiral. And so then through that negative body image, you start, the mocker starts to kick into food of, hey, you should really start Weight Watchers again.
Why don’t you just download the app? Why don’t you think about that? And that deprivation that gets triggered it’s it creates you being obsessed with food. It creates more of an interest in food and a desire for the food that you just told yourself not to have. And it’s, ah, that the antidote is to find that kind of neutral observer to both, and really seeing them both play out with each other where maybe the BFS gets transformed into this BFF.
That’s a little more. Calm and compassionate and hey, what do you need right now? And then the longer, we’re disarming a little bit with, like I got you. You’re trying to protect me. You’re trying to help me establish some boundaries. I know I’ve always followed external plans and I’m just looking for that structure again.
And so, it’s like, how can we get them to be cohesive with each other? Without swinging back and forth between the two extremes and in the food healing relationship, we still swing back and forth a little bit. It’s just less intense and less severe of a swing. So, it doesn’t feel so horrible.
Nancy: And that’s, what’s amazing about that is. I don’t even recognize all my restrictive thoughts. Yeah. I’m I, so when you said that I was like, oh yeah. Even I can notice. Because I have, because I think about it all the time. Like I think about the Reese peanut butter eggs that I have down in the cabinet and how much I love them.
And then I’ll be like, no, you can’t have any like that. That’s going back and forth and like in, but one of my favorite things, like I really enjoy, I know I always enjoy having one with my coffee, which sounds. Crazy
Erica: It sounds Parisian, yeah.
Nancy: Little chocolate with my coffee
And so, it brings me a lot of joy and I love it. And so that, but so I can once I realized that I can just have one. And let it go. But it’s the later in the day when I’ve been telling myself all day long unconsciously that then I’m just like, screw it. I’m going in. And I just have, two or three.
Erica: So, might as well. It’s a once you’ve whether it’s broken a perceived rule it’s almost like you said, it builds up throughout the day, how you’ve eaten has become an unacceptable to that Monger part of you. And so, then the BFF steps in and goes we can’t please.
That guy. So, let’s just go ahead and we might as well, or I had one, so I might as well have more. And that’s where I think that deprivation that we felt for so many years of when you were on Weight Watchers and you weren’t eating the thing or all the times you told yourself not to, that is so built up and so strong.
Because even if you’ve been telling yourself I shouldn’t be having the Reese cup eggs all spring, it is almost even if you’ve been eating them, but you’re telling yourself not to have them. It’s like you haven’t had it. The satisfaction is completely wiped out. And that’s hard for us to understand.
So, you think, oh my gosh, I’ve been eating these Reese cups all week, but if you’ve been telling yourself, you shouldn’t be, or you were allowed, and then now you went overboard because I perceived how you did it was wrong. And it just eliminates that. And you’re almost back at ground zero. Experiencing severe deprivation around it.
Yeah.
Nancy: That’s very well said because I’ll sneak them, so my husband doesn’t see, because I’d put my monger onto him that he’s judging me. So, I’ll, he’ll be down in the basement, and I’ll shove a Reese cup in my mouth really quick, which I don’t taste it. It doesn’t have any of the joy, like the morning one does that is no one has ever explained it to me.
That way, the restriction piece that is that’s really the point.
Erica: It is, it’s so hard for those of us that have felt like we have no willpower and we’re eating all the time to even identify with restriction as being the problem. But it is the sole driver. In fact, when I’m working with people who tend towards turning away from food and people who tend towards turning towards food, the treatment is the same.
We are working at it in the same way. Wow.
Nancy: That is fascinating. Yeah. And again, it’s back to the original point. You spoke. Of building that connection with myself to know, what’s really going on here and paying attention to the thoughts all day that are so restrictive because part of them, the other thing and B is that, because I am so was so militant in my twenties and thirties that the idea of someone telling me what to do that when I follow even health at any size people, or I find it frustrating because they’re not telling me what to do.
Yes. They’re just being like, do whatever you want. And that just triggers me all over the place. Is that common?
Erica: Absolutely. Because it’s almost the way I think of it is it’s almost like being thrown into the ocean. With a little life raft and that’s it. And because you were so used to following a plan and then it’s this free fall, and you’re just bobbing in the water, and you feel so lost.
And so, for some people, they may find that learning to eat. And what does enough really look like? So, if you were doing weight Watchers for so many years, you might say, oh the vegetable soup, that is enough points and that’s what I’m going to use for my meal. And so that’s that, but now when you’re learning to eat enough, that may not be adequate.
It may be, having a bowl of vegetable soup with a grilled cheese on the side. And so, you’re learning to eat in a way that’s not restricted and that can feel really foreign. And so, I think. I think we all want to know how to eat, but the point of health at every size and intuitive eating is to figure out what that looks like for you.
And that feels so foreign, because we all experience everyone’s opinion about food or every diet plan or every, nutrition guru has their own method of what, the best way of eating. And even in nutrition research, we’re always, we’re very reductive. We’re looking for, what is, what’s the correlation here and what does that mean?
Does that mean that this is the healthiest food, and we should avoid this one? And so, it’s, you’re really just navigating these waters that have no. They have no chartered path. And so, you it’s normal to feel completely out of control. And it just depends, like some people do find that they need to work with a dietician to understand what their body needs and it, again, it’s a very addictive way.
Let’s make sure you’re having enough. What does a meal look like? Are you eating meals? Are you eating snacks? And just getting back to that, like basic, because it’s not your fault. It gets decided. After following diet plans for so many years, I had a client it’s then I had half of a grapefruit.
That’s not really a breakfast, but it was a breakfast on a diet plan that she followed for years. It’s almost, that’s why I think it’s a lot of that like forgetting what you’ve learned and trying to. Just really start to learn. What does it feel like to be connected to your body?
Nancy: Because that’s, what’s always challenging for me about, when I’ve started, I’ll start doing intuitive eating and the idea of eating, whatever you want. And you’re like, and, but I miss the next step, which is very important, pay attention to how it feels when you’re eating whatever you want, or, like when you actually eat the full bag of Reese cups, but I’m not.
So, I missed that part, but I also am missing the restriction part of the judgment that I’m putting on myself when I’m doing all that. Because it, it sounds fabulous, but it in, but in practice I’m having to unlearn all the patterns that I’ve had.
Erica: Yes. And that’s why the first principle of intuitive eating is reject diet culture.
And that is the hardest one because it, as though, as you’re going through the food healing and intuitive eating process, those diet thoughts keep coming up and up. I usually have my clients start with satisfaction, and that’s learning both from a physical standpoint and a mental standpoint. So, are you eating what you think you should, or are you eating what is going to satisfy you?
And then are you are eating enough to the point where you’re going to feel full. And so, like you’ve experienced, okay. Hey, I’m just eating what I want, and then I feel terrible afterwards because there’s also habituation that kind of comes in. So even if you’re, if you keep going at it with the receipt, Eventually and the idea isn’t to burn out and never want it again, it’s not a punitive thing, but if you ate Reese cups for dinner every night for a week, I would argue that at the end of that week, you legitimately would want something different.
And so, it’s that trust part. And I think it’s hard to. Because we’ve learned like an all or nothing mentality. You’re following this plan, or you’re not following the plan. And so that’s I’m guessing with the Reese cups and that when you felt like swinging back and forth, that is the one that you’ll have to.
Am I being all or nothing? Maybe it’s having a Turkey sandwich and a handful of Reese cups for dinner or for lunch or something like that. And you’re having both, and you’re giving yourself that permission without having to be I’m either not eating the RACI cups or I’m eating all of
them.
Nancy: Yeah. And this, and to be clear, like to the people that are listening, I’m not looking to lose weight like this. Isn’t about this conversation. Isn’t about give me the tips to lose weight. It’s the, how do I heal this relationship I have with food that has gotten way distorted and.
And out of control and I don’t even argue, like out of control would just say it’s gotten distorted. And so, I’m doing a lot more emotional eating that I want to be doing. Because it’s distorted. Yes. And I think that so often when we talk about food and weight loss go together as if they’re the same thing and they’re not.
Erica: Yeah. And that’s what, when it comes to healing your relationship with food and weight loss, we have to set the weight aside, and that’s hard to do, we always want to lose weight well, feel better. All of these things that we think will come will be more worthy. We’ll look better, we’ll be happier or whatever.
And the foundation of nutrition, I believe, is your relationship with food. I believe that is the absolute foundation that anything we’re doing with food has to be built on a solid. Relationship with it. And that way, it’s like how, it’s, how we’re hearing messages, as well. And so, it, that’s why it’s really the most important thing that we can do for ourselves.
If you’re eating all the sweet potatoes and all the kale and all of the tofu, but you’re anxious all the time and disconnected from yourself. Is the cortisol pumping through your body. That’s not good for us either. And so, I think that really bringing those two parts together and focusing on the relationship with food and then the rest will follow.
That’s why with intuitive eating, it’s saying, hey, let’s figure this part out. And then you can talk about nutrition later. And I think, also what you were saying. With, the disordered eating that you’ve experienced it’s as a result of dieting, intuitive eating has over 90 studies supporting it.
And one of the things that we know is that a side effect of dieting for years is binge eating. Overeating higher body mass index. So, it’s a result of, it’s not a personal failure.
Nancy: That is helpful
Because what my monger tells me is, oh, the reason I am so overweight is because I’ve just let myself go. Yes. You know that I can’t control it. Like I used to that if I would. And so, her, messages always go back to being restrictive. You need to go back to Weight watchers.
You need to go back to that, which creates the cycle, as you’re saying.
Erica: And then what other industry do we think that. If you order something in the mail and it comes broken, hey, you guys got to take this back. It’s defective. You don’t say, oh, I must have dropped it on my way coming in.
So, it’s my fault.
Nancy: So true.
Erica: You, we should get some refunds for, diets over the years (laughing)
Nancy: yes. Yeah. Yeah, because I can remember. My best friend was getting married, and I was doing Weight Watchers because I was going to be in the wedding. And I can picture this day as clear as --it was her wedding shower and one of the hosts had made awesome pecan pie.
And everyone was raving about it, but I did not eat it because I was doing Weight Watchers. And at the time, I was so proud of myself, and everyone was commenting on my control and yeah. And how I could do it, that, and I was like, yeah, so great doing this. And the number of times I thought to myself, if I could go back and eat that freaking piece of pie, I would, that just felt so miserable at the time everyone’s eating, I’m not eating, everyone’s giving me these accolades and I’m like, this is stupid.
You’re like a big part of me knew it was stupid, but I kept sticking with it, and missing stuff.
Erica: And that’s where I think the distorted, the restriction, the restraint, the deprivation, that’s where this is all it is eating and dieting and being restrictive and all of these messages that we receive and internalize, they take us away from what really matters.
They take us away from being present. And so, I think, yeah, at the time you were so in it, you didn’t realize that. And then now on the other side, you’re thinking, gosh, I really missed out. And here I am, however, many years later, I’m not going to get some award for having been the most restrained that day
Nancy: It is interesting how you can go back and feel that sense of pride, and that, and, and then you can get into my dad was that way. Like you can get back into all the history of where those messages came from. I always joke that I still eat because I’m still stuck in these patterns as if I was in the nineties.
Yeah. So, I still eat, it’s I went, I was hungry before we got on the call and I was, and I’m trying to eat more protein because I eat mostly carbs because protein was bad. And like I got some ham where you can’t have ham, it has fat in it. That’s one of my weird rules.
Erica: It was low fat for so long.
And now it’s more low carb. Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I still eat that way because I’m still following the crazy rules. Yes. Yeah. It’s it perpetuates itself. And so, what you’re saying is basically the same thing I’m saying to my clients is building self-loyalty. Yeah. Yes.
Erica: And that’s what you’re restoring autonomy.
You’re restoring trust with yourself because you, when you’re following the rules of a diet, and then you conclude that you. Failed at it. All of a sudden you don’t trust yourself. I can’t be trusted with food. Oh, I ate that thing, and it wasn’t on my plan. And so now I, again, I can’t be trusted. And so that is really damaging.
Yeah. You’re betraying yourself. And like you said, it’s building that self-loyalty and that autonomy with food. And I think that’s the biggest thing is with; it does come that permission to eat and that genuine permission. And I think that’s where, when we were talking before about your mocker part and that BFF part, and the way you conceptualize that with your clients is, bringing them together in a way that they’ll work with each other instead of.
Swinging back and forth. How does the self-loyalty come in with the BFF and the monger and how could we pull that together with food?
Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So would you say that part of unearthing this like moving forward for me personally, since I’ve become the test subject here is bringing those rules to light.
Yeah. Okay.
Erica: Yes, that’s one of the first things that I do with my clients is first we look at, okay, are you eating enough? What is the, do you have a rhythm to eating and do you, but through that process, we’re unearthing the rules. Hey, why don’t you. Bread with lunch. Oh, because I can’t have carbs after 10:00 AM.
Oh, you can’t, let’s talk about that. And so once, once we start going through that, and it’s amazing how actually I’m going to back up, I think the quickest way you can get to your rules is to make a list of what foods are good foods. And what foods are bad foods. Oh. And that’s a shortcut to unearth so many food rules.
And then the more subtle ones start to reveal themselves. Oh, you don’t eat chicken tenders for lunch. What, why other it’s a dinner food really? Okay. You said that (laughing)
Nancy: (Laughing) and that’s how insidious they are. When you say them, they sound wackadoodle, but in your brain, They’re perfectly logical.
Erica: Yes. Once upon a time, a personal trainer, had you weigh your chicken breasts at dinner. And so, it is it’s. So, it’s so illuminating. Once you start to the awareness, you can’t change anything that you’re not aware of when you just feel so stuck.
And so, I love having people write those out, and I have them, beyond good food, bad food beyond, timing with eating. What have you heard about, these types of foods? What have you heard about if you’re moving or you’re not moving and we really get into it and then after they unearth a lot of their food rules, I say things like, is that still relevant?
Do you know that to be true? And so, it’s called wait a minute, fat isn’t as bad as we thought it was in the nineties, it turns out it’s really satisfying. And so, you’re starting to. Once you become aware of them, you start to challenge them and then do things differently. And that I think is one of the things that can unite the BFF and the monger with the self-loyalty is a self-loyalty saying I got this, I’m going to figure it out.
And I trust my body, and I trust myself to sort through it. Sort through these things
Nancy: Yeah. That makes it, so that’s helpful. Just that’s been really helpful. Okay. Anything you would add since we’re going to start wrapping up here, anything you want to make sure people hear when it comes to avoidance and emotional eating,
Erica: working with clients and teaching them, how do you eat enough?
What does that look like for you? And then unearth the food rules. And then we find the morality that exists in that, the shame. And then from there. It’s really them continually checking in with themselves and just getting reset. So, it was like a lot of journaling what’s going on with me and seeing the eating behaviors as an indicator, that something that they’re disconnected in some things off.
So, it’s a really dynamic process that happens over time. And so, I’m almost thinking about somebody knowing that these things don’t go away at night or overnight, and that we can’t like will our way out of them. But the more that you continue to offer yourself permission, The more that you fuel your body, no matter how you feel about it the more that you start to remove morality and the rules that you have around food,
Nancy: love that phrase morality, because it is linked.
It is linked to that. It’s that strong, it’s that strong morality, the shame, the good person, bad person, but the term morality just really shows. It’s not just, I’m a good person. I’m a bad person, but I am like, it defines who I am right. In big ways that I don’t even. I’m not even aware of.
Erica: And that’s what I think when we were talking earlier about the shoulds, I think that’s what it actually is when you’re saying I should do this, or I shouldn’t do this, you’re saying I’m a good person. If I do this, and I’m a bad person, if I don’t do this. And that’s where often, when we say, hey, all foods are good, right?
You’re good. Your body’s good. That’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about removing that morality because yeah. When you eventually leave this earth people, aren’t going to say, oh, good thing that she had a solid breakfast every morning, remember you for who you are and what you bring to your relationships into your life.
And so, I think it is. It is moving beyond, eating in a certain way to be a certain type of person. And I think that gets into the weight piece. That’s where I think the health at every size comes in is I feel shame because my body doesn’t look a certain way, and people in larger bodies and people not in larger bodies, all feel the shame.
People in larger bodies just have the attic. Microaggressions and discrimination put upon them. So, I think that sometimes can be what’s underneath that too, is if you’re feeling a certain way about food, you’re maybe also feeling a certain way about your body. And that’s another way that they get linked up,
Nancy: Because I even think about that quote, oh, it’s I can’t, I’m not going to come up with this, but then it’s a.
You are not as fat as you think you are. Like she’s talking to this college seniors at commencement, and she’s you’re not as fat as you think you are. And I look back on pictures of myself, and I’m like, wow. I felt as I was beating myself up, just as much as I am now, then, and I’m a much, have much more weight now than I did then, but my mindset was exactly the same.
Yeah. The personal hell I was living in was exactly the same. It is.
Erica: At such a young age. Our fear of becoming fat is internalized, and that’s also called fatphobia. And so, then we carry that throughout our lives. And again, that’s us, really judging ourselves as a person and our value and our worth.
And that’s not just coming from us. Some of that trickles down from society and healthcare and things like that. And that is I think, a deeper part of this work and healing your relationship with food usually. Like you experienced the body image dissatisfaction. That starts first. That is the precept to your relationship with food going awry.
And then the body image, whether that’s acceptance or. Some people are more of a self-love, some people are more neutral. Some people just say, hey, I live in a body, and I take care of it. And I’m glad that I have it. Everyone has different levels of how they approach that. But that’s the last part of this work.
And that’s why we say, hey, we’ve got to set the weight aside. And so, you might be saying to yourself, I may not like how my body looks, or I may be judged by society by the size of my body, but I still deserve. To eat food and I have permission to do so again,
Nancy: back to the self-loyalty piece. Yes.
That’s really what this is all about. That’s easy to say, like that’s the overarching theme and then all these exercises you’ve given us, recognizing the rules, recognizing how, morality plays apart recognizing being a good person or a bad person, and when your monger’s talking versus your BFF, but all of that comes down to how do I feel as a person?
And am I looking outside of myself for the answer versus trusting what my body is telling me? Exactly. Yeah, exactly way easier said than done, but
Erica: Oh gosh, that’s why it is such a, yeah. It’s such a process. I don’t like to tell people when I first started working with them, that it’s going to take years. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t feel better and that you aren’t having these co quote-unquote wins in the process.
But it, like you said, you were in high school. Hey, I feel this, or a lot of people it’s younger as well. And so, you’re trying to change a thought pattern of I’m too big. That’s been going on for how many years. And so, I always invite people to. Have compassion for yourself again, easier said than done because there’s this other part of you.
That’s sick of feeling this way. I don’t agree with this anymore. I just don’t want; I want to stop doing this. I want to stop thinking this. So, this impatience and this discomfort that you want to change, and you’re balancing that with, oh gosh, this has been around for a while. So, it’s going to take some time.
Nancy: Yeah, thanks for saying that. Because it’s very true, but it is also I can see. Now after having this conversation, going back to that, because for me, it started in college when there was so much pressure to look a certain way and go in and everyone was restricting and everyone, like that was the cool thing to do with overworking out and all that stuff.
To go back to that girl there and just pour on the self-compassion, to visualize her in my head and be like, wow, you were trying so hard to do it. And you just got a little lost and how you did it, and so let’s just. Reprogram that, and I like to avoid thinking about her because to me, that’s where all the evil started.
Yes. Yep. And it’s the opposite.
Erica: It’s the absolute opposite. It’s when she first came into contact with this pressure to conform and fit in, and like most people who diet, she came out on the other side with some of the things that she didn’t want to be dealing with as a result of the dieting part. Yeah. And that’s what we’re trying to get back to.
And the food healing process. You’re trying to get back to who you were before food got messed with.
Nancy: Ah, that’s lovely. That’s a lovely place to end. It was interesting when we first started before, I think even before I hit record, you said I love the, some of these conversations are the best when I’m talking.
Yeah. A therapist who doesn’t ha who has some of the skillset, but not much of the skillset, which is totally true. You’re like what happened? Like I’m like, I know what you’re talking about, but I still have a lot of crap when it comes to this stuff. And so, it’s just been really illuminating to me to chat with you about it, to combine, like I know this is.
Not that food is my last frontier because Heaven knows
Erica: a lot of people that can be though one it’s like a slow change.
Nancy: Yeah. It is something I know. I have an issue with that. I have just been like; I don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want to deal with that.
I don’t want to deal with that. And you are today. Have given me and hopefully the listeners some guidance on how to deal with that.
Erica: I hope so. I love talking with people who’ve done work in other areas of their lives because then you’re linking it up with all the positive that they’ve already done, and it just comes together.
Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So, tell people where they can find you and get information about what it is you’re doing. Yeah.
Erica: So, anyone can find me on my instagram@alignnutritionormywebsitealignednutrition.com and I’m often posting. Really thought-provoking content on Instagram. I’m showing up on stories.
I love getting DMS. I’m in the process of building an online program that comes out next week called realign. And yeah, DME, if you have any ideas or things that you want me to cover, I’m actively creating it right now. And I love to hear from people that really resonate with this type of topic and information so that we can create a solution together
Nancy: And you have to follow her on Instagram, but she is like incredibly responsive and is always on there answering questions. It’s really, I can’t say enough good things and not just because she’s a friend of mine really is amazing. So, thank you, Erica, for taking the time to do this.
Amazing.
Erica: Thank you for having me. So many people deal with anxiety. It gets linked up to food, and this just couldn’t be more important to be talking about.
Nancy: This interview was a game-changer for me in so many ways. Being able to openly share my avoidance issues around food, allowed me to see my patterns in a whole new light.
I am so much kinder now when I reach for the chocolate, and I’m quick to ask myself, what do you need? Sometimes the answer is chocolate, and sometimes I’m surprised because the answer is rest or a conversation with a good friend. Eric has point about the moral issues of eating really struck me as well.
So much of my judgment around food is a moral judgment. It is deeper than just craving sweets. When I’m stressed. It’s about a personal failure. Seeing this in the interview has allowed me to start loosening up this message. I started out this month, wanting to talk about avoiding our anxiety through various means, but I’m finding through each interview that the method we use to avoid also has its own messages from our mongers and from society.
Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.
Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.
I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.
Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More