Episode 143: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 1
In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.
In these unprecedented times…
In these uncertain times…
Now more than ever…
UGH.
The language of 2020 is getting old.
But it’s getting old because we are running out of words to describe the anxiety, overwhelm, fear, and uncertainty that we are living through right now in July of 2020.
It’s not just anxiety-provoking for us as adults but also for the next generation. Statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.
A few months ago, one of my clients asked if I’d seen the Atlantic article about childhood anxiety—they were convinced that they were totally messing up their kids!
Of course, I read the article and it inspired me to reach out to parenting expert (and childhood friend of mine!) Renee Mattson. She is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. Renee’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. I wanted to find out her thoughts on how we’re impacting our kids and how we can better parent them through these anxious times.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
Helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids
Why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important
How a lack of time has made over accommodating an even bigger problem and how to approach it
The idea that our children are craving an adult in the room and too often we treat them like mini-adults
Resources mentioned:
Book: The Explosive Child: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children by Ross Green
Book: The Happiest Toddler on the Block: How to Eliminate Tantrums and Raise a Patient, Respectful, and Cooperative One- to Four-Year-Old by Harvey Karp
Book: The Soul of Discipline: The Simplicity Parenting Approach to Warm, Firm, and Calm Guidance- From Toddlers to Teens by Kim John Payne
The Atlantic Article What Happened to American Childhood?
+ Read the Transcript
Renee: And a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to tie it, spend time tying his shoes more.
We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging.
Nancy: In these unprecedented times in these uncertain times now, more than ever the language of 2020, it's getting a bit old, but it's getting old because we're running out of words to describe the anxiety.
Fear and uncertainty we are living through right now in July of 2020. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. It's not just anxiety provoking for us as adults, but also for the next generation, our children, grandchildren, nieces, and nephews statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.
A few months ago. A client of mine Vox me to say, “did you see the latest Atlantic magazine and the article about childhood anxiety? So depressing. I am totally messing up my kids.“ Of course, I immediately went to find the article, which I will link to in the show notes. It is entitled what happened to American childhood, too many kids show worrying signs of fragility from a very young age.
After reading the article, I was inspired to reach out to a childhood friend of mine and parenting expert, Renee Mattson, to get her thoughts on the article and how we can better parent our children through these anxious times. Renee Mattson is the owner and founder of child and bloom a coaching business for parents and teachers.
She is a mother of three licensed intervention specialists for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach adjunct faculty member at Xavier university and trainer and coach for educational professional develop. In this episode, Renee and I dive into the article, which discusses two concepts, one parents who have anxiety pass it along to their kids.
And two, one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety. And this makes it worse. Renee tells us her perspective on this idea and helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids. How a lack of time has made this over accommodating, even bigger and more of a problem, and how to approach that.
The idea that our children are craving and adult in the room. And too often, we treat them like mini adults and why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important. I am so excited to have Renee Mattson here from child and bloom. And the reason I wanted to bring Renee on is a client of mine brought to me the, an article that was in the Atlantic about called childhood and an anxious age.
And I read the article. And it talks a lot about anxiety in kids. And I thought I am going to bring in my friend and expert in parenting, Renee Mattson. So Renee, thanks for being here.
Renee: Wow. I'm so glad you even thought to think, to call me. That was so great. And I read the same article and my husband actually just sent it to me after you.
Nancy: Thank you. That's awesome. Meant to be.
So it's a long article and it's pretty depressing at the beginning that the statistics are not positive about how anxiety is coming around. So two things that really stuck out to me in this article. Parents who have anxiety tend to pass it along to their kids.
And one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety they do. And that just makes it worse. Do you agree? How do you see this showing up with your clients?
Renee: I definitely agree. And I agree because I see it. I think about it in terms of any skill.
So if you think of dealing with anxiety as a skill, I'm a teacher. So I teach teachers and I teach parents how to teach their children. And when I'm working with children, I'm always thinking about, I need to teach model and practice this lagging skill. So if I were to think about it in a situation where a parent's feeling anxiety and then their child might be going through a little moment, that's bringing some kind of anxiety or suffering.
If I don't put them in the situation, I don't give them a chance to suffer through it and grow if that makes sense. So I'm going to give you like an example. I might give some of my clients. I think about it in terms of Velcro versus tie shoe. So if you have a little guy who doesn't know how to tie his shoes and you need to think about, eventually I'm going to have to teach him.
I could put them in Velcro the rest of his life, but we know if he's wearing Velcro when he's 12. So eventually I'm going to have to pause and teach him. And when I teach him, it's going to be, there's going to be some suffering through that. Discomfort and time and anger and frustration, but I have to do it so he can push through to the next level, same thing with math.
Like I could just give him this flashcards or give them a multiplication chart. And then he will never have to learn his math facts, but I actually have to spend time teaching him. That same thing with social skills. And I also think the same thing with coping skills and a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more, just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to spend time tying his shoes more. We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging skill.
And actually Ross Green calls it lagging skills. He wrote the Explosive Child and I love that he calls it that because I think it's a great word for it
Nancy: . You’re putting anxiety is a lagging, Coping with anxiety could be a lagging skill?
Renee: Yeah. Okay. It might be. I'm not really good at it right now. And I need to be put into situations where I can figure it out now. In the middle of that, I always call it the fire pit in the middle of the anxiety in the middle of tying shoes that's a really bad zone to be teaching him how to tie his shoes.
If I was going to teach him how to tie his shoes or get through tying his shoes, I got to do that before sometime when he's chill and I am chill. not, when I'm trying to get out the door, that's a bad zone. If I'm going to try to teach my child about how to get through their anxiety or their worries, I'm going to have to teach him over here, like before or after? Not in the anxious moment, that's a really bad zone to teach. So my teaching has to come at different times.
Nancy: Got it. It could also be that a child has a lagging skill that ends up causing anxiety. So they might have a lagging skill of social interaction, or how to order at a restaurant to say, , And then they don't know how to do that enough because their parents always do it for them.
Then it builds anxiety for them when they get there.
Renee: For sure. And then the parents continue to accommodate. And would you say, you know what? You didn't sleep in our bed? Cause I know you're having a hard time sleeping at night. Or you can just, we're just not going to go out to eat. We don't go out to eat.
I actually had a mom who said to me, we don't go to the zoo. We don't go to Kings island. We don't go places because he doesn't know he doesn't handle those situations very well. As someone who's trying to coach the parent along is, oh no, we're going to go. We need to go. But but we teach before we go and then we need to walk through it and then have a little plan that goes with it.
Nancy: Same as you would with an adult who was nervous about whatever
Renee: Yeah. Yeah, I know it brings up the mom's anxiety cause maybe she has her own and she's oh, this is making me anxious, but we know that the more I walk through it and you walk through it, I being the child, I walked through it and I recover your fine tuning, my recovery skills.
I need to just, I need to refine it. I need to refine the skill, whether it's tying shoes or getting along with my sibling or understanding that I'm feeling a certain way and I need to do something that's going to help me reboot and recover a little
Nancy: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Part of what they're saying in this article, with the accommodating is that the parents take away any suffering and you're saying suffering is key.
Renee: I know, in fact, when I give my talk about different types of parenting styles do you want me to go ahead and tell you what I might say?
So the parenting styles that I would describe and you've heard them before, but I put them in my own words, which would be, you've got your bossy or strict. I actually even had a young teacher I was working with really recently just said, oh, I don't like the word strict.
So she does definitely doesn't want to be a strict parent or a strict teacher. So you've got that style. That's going to be the, my way or the highway. We're not negotiating no discussion. It is what it is. Suck it up parent. And then you've got, and I would call this on the other side, you've got the polite parent permissive or polite parent.
And by the way, the bossy parents going to be, because I said so, which you've heard that before I'm sure John Rosemond is one of the parenting experts that would say, because I'd BISS because I said so.
Nancy: that, that's the reason, that's good enough
Renee: that’s enough for the bossy instruct parent.
Because I said so, and then the other side of that would be the polite or permissive. And I say polite because it's usually suggesting would you like to get in the grocery cart? Which is a suggestion and usually they're bent down, like you're in charge or would you like to do this? Would you like to put your coat on?
Would you like to come outside? And so it's lots of asking and suggesting they're being very polite. They might say it's time to eat dinner. Okay? And they'll tack on a little, okay. At the end. Is that okay? And sometimes get a no out of that. So that's that polite permissive zone.
There's a lots of negotiation, lots of discussion and lots of connection.
Nancy: And then is there a parenting like middle guru who wants you to go there?
Renee: I would say that kind of goes with more of the relationship building. I'm not going to name a name of the person, but It's all about the relationship. And I am not saying that it's not about the relationship because I'd like to have you meet right in the middle of this, instead of because I said so. Because you said which is what I would call permissive. I'm going to go into the middle zone, which I think most people would agree if they could really think about that.
You got to be in the middle of it. But I also need you to lean towards, because I said so okay. because you're the adult in the room. We've been there, done that. And you are the one who has, to make the rules. If that makes sense, because if I'm three years old and I realized I'm in charge, that makes me very happy.
It makes me very anxious. So in the middle zone it's because I said so, but I put L with it BLISS because you love them. So instead of, because I said, because you love them enough to connect connect, connect, connect and I usually say connect four time. So you do have to be polite and nice to them sometimes, but you have to connect to them.
You have to connect four times so that you can correct the problem with the permissive imply they really struggle with correcting.
Nancy: So what does connecting look like?
Renee: Connecting looks like I see you. Okay. I see you. I hear you. I know you. I like you. I actually really like you and I like to hang out with you and I want to be with you.
Let's do something together. I see what you need. I can feel what you feel. So it's I see you. I hear you. I feel you. I know you and I like you. So that's really important, but just as important, if not more is the correction side of this, because you have to decide what the rules are.
Nancy: , For the record, not a parent here. What about the common practice I had seen. was set a timer, like we're going to leave in to give them advanced warning. We're going to leave in two minutes and I'll set a timer for two minutes. where does that lie?
Renee:
Okay. That happens a lot, obviously. And I usually say parents well, first of all, kids don't really have a very good sense of time. So using time, isn't going to be your friend. That's not. That's not going to be so great, but kids are usually more concrete. So you're going to say, are you going to, and they want some pounds, kids want power.
So if you tell me two minutes, I'm like, no, I don't want to leave in two minutes. Or I want to have some control in this. You, as the parent tried to set the rules, remember you are the author of the rules. So that's that because I said, so we are leaving. We are going to leave. And when we leave, we're going to go do this next thing that we want to do or need to do.
So we see the progression. We are leaving. I wonder if we should leave in one minute or two minutes, if you want to use time, literally giving them some choice within the rule box. And this is better than time should we go down the slide 10 times or two times?
I want to go down 10. That's fine. Let's go down 10 times and then we are leaving. So I gave you a window of control. I hear you. You love the slide. I see. You're having fun. I know you, we got to go I'm in the author of the rules. We're not going to do it a hundred more times just because you want to, when you're too sad to leave, everybody's sad to leave.
In fact, we might even say the guy who wrote the Happiest toddler on the block, and I wish I could remember his name. He always says, you need to say I see you're sad, sad, sad, sad. You're mad, mad, mad,. And it's just for toddler, you would say that, but I might even say that with an 11 year old, like I see you.
You're sad. Dude. You're really sad. I'm sad too. It's fun. This is awesome. Don't forget. We want to come back and do this again, but we got to go. So what do you want to do now? You choose your items. You want to go down two times or 10 times if he says I'm not going down. I don't. I want to go down 12.
Okay. Then I guess I'll choose 10. Because we're going. Because I said between two and 10. Okay. He says neither I'm going down seven! Fine, let's go. That's right. Sometimes I'll have meet with some parents that are really like, want to be in control. They'll say I said two or 10, right? Like we're glad it's in the middle.
, why are you starting a second layer battle here?
. I think it's usually about control for parents. They just think I should be in control. I should be in charge. And I said, so that's that whole, because I said so, and with the parenting, the most anxiety ridden parenting thing that you can do for the child is that you try to be permissive and polite and you're at the grocery store and you're asking him to get in the cart. Would you like to get in the cart? And he doesn't want to get in the cart and, he needs to be in the cart and you're not listening to your gut enough to say this kid needs to be in a cart.
And then you flip over and flip out into the because I said mode. You are trying to be all permissive and polite and would you want to, and please get in and then you lose your mind and you've jumped way over here. And what if you were just in the middle, which is clear, cut. Matter of fact, I love you.
You love me in the cart. Let's go hop in. 1 2, 3. Oh, I see you just like a rocket ship in the cart. Let's go very confident and clear about it. Like it's no big deal. We're going to get in the cart and go. Yeah, that's the safe zone. And I'm going to tell you, that's why your kids feel really safe with their teachers at school.
Because the very best teachers I work with are right there. They're loving and clear
Nancy: Which is any good boundaries. The thing is, I will say the majority of my clients who have a lot of anxiety come from homes where they had to do a lot of mind reading, where they had to figure out what the rules were because their parents weren't telling them either because of addiction or they just didn't care or, whatever, or they're busy with their own stuff.
Or they were, our generation doesn't have a lot of super permissive parents. But I, so I could see why it's so high, because now we're getting into the permissive parenting and that's unknowingly you're putting your three-year-old in charge, causing them to have anxiety.
Like they have to do more mind reading to figure out what's the right answer here.
Renee: And there's a book called the soul of discipline from Kim, John Payne. I'm actually doing a book club on it at the end of the month in May. And I love it. He talks about it children are pinging like a submarine. Like just tell me where's the boundary.
Tell me I got to find my way of pinging through the water, like a submarine, but I'm trying to figure this out here. What can I do? What's the rule today? I thought the rule was this and I'm in charge of this. And that is very scary. But at school, oh, I know that. We stand in a line. We walked down the hall.
I sit here. Oh no, they'll tell you the rules. They'll say, oh no, we have to do it this way. And that makes me feel safe. And so they're begging for mom and dad just to tell him the go to behaviors. What I taught, tell me the go behavior. Mommy. Tell me exactly what I need to do. And start focusing on what I don't need to do.
Stop it, quit it don't, if you put all your energy in the stop behaviors and you never teach the go behaviors, the child is confused. But if you clearly talk about this as what we can do, this is what we do. This is how we function and we teach it and we model it and we practice it and you set them out to go do it.
Then I feel success because even if I made a little bit of success, You named it. That's who I am. I'm the guy who survived. I'm the guy who recovered. I'm the guy who I was really sad and upset, but I made it through. And then I have that build self-confidence. And I think that parents who are trying to get their kids to be in charge and let them make all those choices and have agency, like they get to, I get to be in charge.
They are thinking they're doing it for self-esteem and it's right. Because this is my experience. It's just my experience. I think they're, they are watching the fact that it's just scary for kids. But if I give you a boundaries and you get choices within the boundaries, it feels so safe.
And then I feel confident that I can do this and I can function. I have a really good day. That
Nancy: makes a lot of sense. So how did you get into this work?
Renee: So I'm a teacher for, so first of all, I babysat forever. I, that was what I did. 15 year old. And then I nannied all through college while I was studying to be a teacher.
I was a regular ed teacher, and then I decided I really loved to go into the regular ed classroom and zero in on, why does this guy learn differently? And what's he doing that makes his day different. And then I started to look at behaviors and why is this guy behaving differently? He is what's going on with him.
So that kind of, I became a special educator and I worked in special education with behavior and learning. In public schools in Ohio. And then I did I stayed home with my own children and I have three kids. I have a college student, I have a high schooler and I have a sixth grader. And while I was staying home with him, especially in the beginning, I was putting these things to use going, oh, the same thing I did in my classroom, I taught severe behaviors.
And one of the classrooms that I worked with kids with the most severe behaviors you could ever imagine. And I, when I was working with them, I was always telling them in, when I first got the job, I was young and naive and telling them to stop it, quit kids who that kid cuss me out or whatever my aide in the classroom said, Renee, you're never catching them being good.
And you never finding when they recovered oh, you're right. I'm so busy telling him this guy, he's not doing it right. That I never looked over here at these guys who were actually functioning or the one time we'll do it. So it helped me to really start to focus on the functioning behaviors.
Then I started teaching teachers at Xavier university. And when I did that, they asked if one of us would, might want to be a parent coach or get trained in it because we have to coach our special ed ma moms and dads who have children with special needs on how we do things at school. Why don't we coach you at home?
How to do that. And then we're doing this. There we go. So 2012 started doing this independently.
Nancy: Okay. And that's when Child in bloom came around?
Renee: Yes! And I still teach teachers Xavier. So still teach a little bit.
Nancy: So thanks want to give people a little hint of your background there. One reason the article gave for why parents accommodate and I know this is so true is lack of time and the amazing thing. I was blown away in the article by how parents are accommodating from too, because the kids, I didn't want to be alone to not let the kids didn't want to go upstairs by himself. So the parents would constantly go upstairs and they were just accommodating all their fears I guess I would say. And cause it's easier for them to accommodate rather than to let them give the time for the kid to figure it out. So I know that's a real problem. How do you see that playing out? And do you have any tips for changing that?
Renee: So I definitely see it playing out and I know that a lot of parents are really stressed on time. A lot of them. That's huge. And so if they're trying to get out the door in the morning, they just don't have time to be dealing with the behavior.
Just give him what he wants. So he doesn't cry. Make him happy, cut the sandwich and whatever shape he needs it in. And so we do ask what's accommodating, like he has to have a sandwich cut. This, the carrot has to be on the right-hand side. He has to have a juice.
It's still two thirds, not one half filled, like literally that's real. That's definitely happening. And so yeah, it goes to grandma's house and grandma's no, I'm not cutting your sandwich Like everybody else eats it and he's going to have an anxiety meltdown. So what would be best is if when you note, I like.
You're thinking of yourself as you're not just a parent, you're a teacher and good teachers. When they see their kids in process, they note, they take note like, Ooh, that's something I got to teach. This is something that is working for him. So instead of getting like dramatic about it in the moment, think this is a teachable moment.
And I don't teach in the moment I teach later. So instead of thinking bad kid, bad behavior, bad situation. Ha we have a problem. I usually draw a circle for parents and I say, let's put all the awesome things about your child in that circle. Then let's draw a really tight square around the circle and wherever the circle bumps up against the square is where your child's bumps up against the world.
And so you might want to cut that in within whatever perfect shape, but he's going to bump up against the world and they're not going to have that cookie cutter. Shape there it's there. And so that's a function problem. And so it's just a little note to self. We got to work on that. So whatever that little, wherever it bumps up against the square that's a teaching I got to teach and I got a model.
And when I say teach, I usually say, teach outside of the moment and teach with 5 words at a time. So five words and really awkward pause that keeps your anxiety down and it keeps their processing up. So less words. So in outside of the moment, when I started to teach, I might say, so you love to have sandwiches cut in fancy shapes.
I do too, but grandma doesn't have those shapes. Let's draw it out. Let's draw our house. In grandma's house. So we teach outside of the moment we teach with less words, we teach with more pictures. I'm literally going to draw it out. Here's our house. Here's grandma's house. What's the difference? What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house?
What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house at six words, two minutes. What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house? We don't have anything. So that's like really good teachers know how to talk that way. And the compassion study down. It's like we're back in kindergarten and we all feel so safe.
What a mom might do. Cause she's getting anxious about you can't do this from your grandma's house, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, the kid only heard the first three to five calm words. You said she, they missed the paragraph. So if you find yourself talking in paragraphs three to five words with a very weird and awkward, purposeful, And pictures.
Now you're going to say, you're not going to draw a picture for a 13 year old.. You're going to draw picture for a 13 year old and you going to put two, a piece of paper between you at least, and paper as a buffer to be like, Hey, look, let's draw this out. Let me just show this to you. It doesn't have to be stick figures.
Like you might do it with your little one, but it would be like, let me chart this for you. Let me show you when you choose this you also choose this and this and this. So you choose to cheat on your test you also choose to go to the principal and tell them this. And you also do this, and I guess you choose this, but if you choose this, you choose to get the grade you get, and we love you anyway. How about that?
And we love you anyway, on the top one, two. How about that? So I might literally draw that out like a chart, or I might like, even with my college students say, Hey, you could take a piece of paper and you draw out what you want. I'll draw out what I want. Come back with their paper and we'll talk about this.
The paper becomes a buffer, so you don't have to look me in the eye.
Nancy: Oh, that makes a ton of sense.
Renee: I had to do that with my severe behavior kids because they never wanted to look me in the eye. So it's where it comes from, but it works all ages. So teach outside of the moment, teach with less words, teach with more pictures, and then you have to put them in the situation, like you said earlier, where they have to practice.
You got to take them to their friend's house so you can practice the social skill. They just learned, you got to go to grandmas and practice what we learned. We learned how we're going to respond when she gives us sandwiches that cut like a Teddy bear. What are we going to do? something like that
Nancy: . So do you go through it right before you go to grandma's?
Renee: Yeah. I probably would.
Let's see what we're going to do and let's see if you can do it. And we're going to probably talk to grandma about it too, and say, Hey, we've got a new thing here and maybe, or not, if you can't talk to it, if it's your mother-in-law, you may not be able to talk to her about that.
But they're going to have to talk it through. Yeah, definitely. And we're going to come out on the other side with we made a little bit of progress. You were mad and you screamed and you threw the carrot across the floor, but you came back and you join the dinner table. Even if you didn't do that you came with her like, so you're going to find the smallest, tiny bits of progress.
And know that's who you are. You are a survivor.
Nancy: That's I like that. So what about, and I know a big problem for parents is the co-sleeping. And I know there's a lot of like hardcore fans of co-sleeping, there's a lot of written about the family bed and, I know nothing about parenting, but I know about the family bed.
Tell me like, and as I know, some parents like that, even as I have as clients that are like, they're trying to break that, how do you do that, cause that is a major stressor. A because the kid gets it so upset, because the parent wants to feel needed by comforting, comforting the kid and being there for the kid.
Like we still joke. I can remember walking into my dad, my parents bedroom. And you always went to my dad. He was the one that woke up and I would stay, I can envision myself standing there and trying to wake him up. And my dad was like this big burly man. Jump up out of bed, he'd be like,” What’s going on?!” and I would be like, I had a nightmare and I still wanted to crawl into bed with him.
That was the end game that I wanted, but it would be like, okay, we got to get a drink of water. We got to go to the bathroom. And he would go walk with me to my bathroom while I did that. And then he would tuck me in and that would be it like, yeah, there might be a, sorry, you had a nightmare, but there was no like come into bed or sleep on the floor next to me, it was, you go this is our room.
And that is your room. And, neither shall the two meet.
Renee: if he may have done that sometimes. And sometimes didn't do it. You would have been more confused. At least you knew the boundary. That's what my gut says. Which I know a lot of people will disagree with it, but I feel like at least you felt safe.
And I guess I know now if he could cuddle with you and outside of the moment, like right then might not have been the best time to cuddle with you. It might've been during the day to recap it a little like how that happened last night, that's a thing it's real. You felt that way. So what are we going to do to make us feel safe?
Or how could we even meet in the middle on that? But we can't have all that conversation at nighttime. Night time is the worst time to have a big conversation. So I wouldn't ever suggest that you do that, but to be very confident and I'm confident in you, you're confident in me. I'll walk you to your bed.
I'll make you feel safe. What light should we turn on tonight? We'll talk about it in the morning, You're safe. You're okay. And you can handle it, which are the three words that you would use with any traumatized kid you're safe you’re ok, and we can handle this. We can do this, but not to downplay that they're upset, but I hear you, it sounds like you're upset.
We need to go to bed and what can I do for you right here? But if to go back to the move, what I see is a lot of, this is where it comes from with the bed. When you were nursing a baby you're being told feed on demand. Feed on demand and you have to feed on demand.
If you're nursing, you got to feed when that baby is hungry, even if it's not your schedule, you feed on demand. And I love it. I think that's exactly what you need to do.. No doubt about it. I think it's a slippery slope to everything on demand.
Because if we don't stop there with the feed on demand, we could easily slip into he really just wants to sleep in our bed with us every night. He really wants to go to school in his pajamas. That's what he wants. He really wants to wear his rain boots and princess costume to the store to church or whatever.
But he really wants to do this and the really wants turn into, he was ruling all the things because we really don't want him to suffer. And when he can learn, oh, I see that you love to wear your princess costume with your rain boots. I love that you love that. This is where we can do this.
Let's make a zone where we do this. And then this is the zone where we don't doesn't mean we don't love it still. It's just not where we do it. So let's, I hear you. I see you. I know what you want and I know what you love, and I want to build it into our life, but this is not where we're going to do it.
Cause I'm the boss. If that makes sense. All right. I'm in charge. I have to be in, I have to be in charge of that. Now. Some people will disagree obviously, and that's fine, but I think, but I really, truly believe you just have to be careful on the slippery slope of everything onto me.
Nancy: That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah. So what do you do when your kid is sick? Cause in the article I appreciated, it said the parents have become the comforter instead of the Teddy bear. I thought that was such a great line.
Renee: Yeah, good. Keep going wherever you go with that.
Nancy: So I, yeah, if your kid is really upset and it's, then your anxiety is increasing as you're hearing them being upset, how do you handle it?
Renee: The first time it happens I think you really do need to be there for them. You need to just sit in it with them. Let's just sit here in it. And I really am fine with kids sitting in it, but we're just going to sit here. And I might have can sit on my lap in this. I might let you give you this big squeezy hug in this. I might, but then I also am in, remember I'm thinking teachable moment here. I got to teach. I'm going to have to teach my teacher hats coming on. Cause this is a moment. It's just a moment. It's just a behavior. It's just a situation. It's not who he is. It's not going to be who he is 20 years from now when we go there very quickly.
Oh, he doesn't like school. He'll never like school. If I go into the whole. And make this a story. The story will repeat if I just sit in it and not, don't make a lot of language around it, not a lot of emotion around it and just be, I'll be better. Everybody will be a little better off. And I teach later when everybody's calmed down.
I call that the fire pit, when you're in the fire pit, there's you just need to keep people safe and calm and function. Less words, way less words. So I see, like parents will end that fire pit be like, oh, why do you feel this way? Get rid of why? Just take Why out of your mind in that zone.
Like, why are you feeling this way? What's your problem? What were you thinking? None of those three questions are gone. Be a detective, not a psycho analyzer. Like we're going to detect this. Who, what, when. What before, what, after what know, like those kind of fact-finding questions to bring us back down to where, when, how, where are we right now?
But not why here, because why we can deal with later. If we get into the why here, there's always a really good reason to get out of your bed and come to mind. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Nancy: Can you say what happened?
Renee: Oh, did you hear a sound? Did you hear a sound? Oh, I think too.
Let's look out the window. What, where, when, how many times, like we're fact finding, we're not, oh my gosh. Are you nervous? Why do you want to sleep with mommy? And here's the thing you're in the middle of sleeping. So you're less likely to be functioning yourself very well. And I will tell you this really quickly when it comes to sleep issues, because people have me come to their house a lot and help them like super nanny style.
When I come to the house, they asked me to come to their house and I do, and they say, I want you to come and sit with us through bedtime. I'll say that's fine. I definitely will do that. I will come to your house at night time. I'll sit on your master bed and wait for him to get back in there. And we will go through the whole process of getting into staying in his room and all of that, but we're not going to do that until we've done it during the day because behaviors usually reflect daytime, need daytime, need for boundary, daytime, need for systems daytime need for teaching.
And the data is usually if you're having issues at night time, you also have some issues during the day and all of the dates, the nighttime ones first is a challenge when we haven't really put boundaries in order and system and teaching during the day. So let's work on when we have energy first and then and sometimes those nighttime behaviors go away because they start to feel safe with the rules and boundaries during the day, and set the rules and the boundary at night flow a little bit better.
Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. But I'd like to how you say, cause I, even as adults, I would, I hate when people say why like it, just that, that gets you into justifying. Why you know that it's okay to feel that way. Like it's putting it on the person to justify and.
But in a sense, it's getting them all hopped up. What's going on? Why are you feeling this way, blah, instead of bringing this, the calming the situation.
Renee: Yeah. It's just the facts. It's just, it is what it is. Not that it's bad or good. It's just like a detective. I don't, I always say to my parents that I work with no detectives walking into a crime scene saying, why did you rob the bank?
You're not ever going to say that because there's a really good reason to rob a bank. And so I didn't have any money in my bank account. I needed some money oh no, it's going to be a who, what, when, where, what happened first? What happened second? Are we safe? Are we okay? Can we handle, it's going to be very factual.
My husband would say that Renee, that means you're very cold, not cold. I'm just clear. I like you, you like me, the behavior stinks. Let's get rid of it. Like it's just behavior. It's just a thing. It has nothing to do with how much I love you or how much you love me, but I can't get emotional about it.
You got to cut loose from the emotions.
Nancy: Yeah. because like I had a friend of mine actually, who, whose daughter was really nervous. They had lost a couple, a couple of extended relatives had died.. And so the daughter was really afraid. She was going to lose mom and dad, didn't want them to leave.
And it was this whole big thing. And so they were doing like all this anxiety stuff, like tapping and visualizing it on a cloud and. All this stuff to help her. And I said, have you ever said to her? And she was like 10 at the time. And I said in that eight to 10, and I said, have you ever said to her, what would it be like if mommy and daddy, if something happened to us, nd she was like, oh my gosh, no.
Because then that's really addressing it. But that's what she's nervous about. Let's put that out on the table and talk about with, what that feels like, rather than trying to hide it with tapping and all this other stuff.
Renee:
Let's just put it on the table. It doesn't mean it's true. So actually I think what a lot of the families that when I started working with us, I actually started working. Because I felt like I saw a lot of families that were like, not even able to say that a behavior issue. Say that an anxiety moment exists.
Oh no. If I say it, then that means I don't love him. If I say his behavior is annoying, if I see his behaviors obnoxious, if I say his behavior is anything then I don't love him. But I'm just like, just say it, just put it on your cheek. What are you worried about? That's what you were saying with anxiety.
What is it? If we can name it, then it's a thing. And then I can be like, okay, that's a thing that exists. And now I need to think about it as to what are the opposites of those things? What are the things I can control, I guess maybe what's the go behaviors. Would I say stop behaviors over here? That would be hurting or fussing or disrespect kind of behaviors.
And then the go behaviors are those, what's the next steps? What are the things I can do to function a little bit better through this? I'm still going to feel, but what am I going to do differently? And those are the good behaviors that have to be taught modeling.
Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I think that then, because for that example I gave of, what, if my parents die, she's already thinking that.
Yeah. So anytime the parents are like, let's not go there. Then she's oh, then she doesn't trust herself. Because it's coming up for her. That's a real thing, but her parents are constantly dismissing it from her too, to go into tapping or to avoid it. And then she doesn't learn how to soothe when that comes up, because I, this is how I feel, but I don't need to get wrapped up in that.
That's not a whole huge big thing. And now I just need to know how I'm going to react and choose my go behavior
Renee: And your dad walking you back to your bed is that's very, it goes right there with it. It's a clear thing. You were worried about something in your room. You had a nightmare. It existed.
And he's okay, sounds like it existed. Let's go back. Let's deal with it. In the next day, if he talked it through with you, it's real. And let's talk about it. Let's put it on the paper and see what we can do about it. Yeah.
Nancy: I was just highlighting that. Like you put it back on the paper
Renee: That’s the balance between go to your bed because I said so, and just stay in mommy's bed because I don't want to see you crying. It's in the middle of it's time to go to bed because I said so, and we do have to go to bed because we have school in the morning or whatever we do are going to bed. You are safe, you are okay. And we can handle this, but when we see each other tomorrow, we'll talk it through or come up with a plan.
Can I make you feel safe? And now as much as I can in your space and we'll talk about it.
Nancy: Because it is funny. I still get up. If I have a nightmare, I still get up, go to the bathroom, get a glass of water.
Renee: That was your safety routine.
Nancy: My mom and I will still laugh about that because she'll say, yeah, I get up. I go to the, I get a glass of water.
I go to the bathroom. I think of your dad.
Renee: well, coping skills. And that's what all that matters is that she has a routine. You had a function. That's a very functioning normal way to handle it. Not normal. You know what I mean? Like just typical like you, that you're going to be able to live with someone and do that.
And that's what the goal is to get them to live with someone.
Nancy: He never did the, there was no conversation the next day for the record,
Renee: No parents knew how to do that, by the way, no parents,
Nancy: but in its way it normalized it's okay that you're feeling this way. And because you're feeling this way, this is what we do to solve that.
We go to the bathroom, we go to glass of water and I tuck you in. That does not happen normal. That's special because you're hurting.
Renee: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And you learned that from him regularly because it was a system and that's what gives you. Kids are really begging for there. Begging for, just give me a system.
I need this, and especially I work with a lot of kids with ADHD and anxiety, and sometimes I've seen things that seem like they go hand in hand, they just need. I just need a boundary. In fact, they need more boundaries, not less. So a lot of my families I work with a child with ADHD will say he has ADHD, so we don't really try to do any rules.
We know how his brain works. I'm like, oh no, he's the guy who needs more rules. He needs more, or boundaries, more systems. His brain doesn't make the system, his brain doesn't go with the system. He needs an external system because he doesn't. And maybe with your anxiety in the middle of the night, you didn't have an internal system that knew what to do.
You needed your dad to give you an external one.
Nancy: I absolutely loved this conversation with Renee. She provides so many concrete suggestions and examples. In fact, we had so much information. We had to divide this episode into two parts. Part two will be here next week.