Episode 147: How to Get Out of Your Own Way and Get What You Want
In today’s episode, I am talking with Sarah Kathleen Peck the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast about how to get out of your own way when you are stuck in insecurity and doubt.
Have you been feeling a bit stuck lately, wondering what comes next?
Saying to yourself that there has to be more?
If so, you’re not alone.
That’s because I’ve been asking myself these questions lately, too. I’ve noticed that whenever I’m in this place for too long, it usually means I’m looking for the “right answer.” I’m trying to find the “perfect” next step.
I’m wrapped up in fear, doubt, and insecurity.
Those feelings are not uncommon when you’re stuck. But when it becomes a pattern—fear, doubt, and insecurity lead to staying stuck and staying stuck leads to those feelings—that’s when getting out of your own way gets tricky.
This month, I’m continuing this month’s theme of Being Human with Sarah Kathleen Peck. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate everyday insanity.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
There are two types of people: those who know what they want and they’re having a hard time going after it and those who are stuck and don’t know what they want
Why we all know the answer to what comes next—we just need to get out of our own way
What I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way
How our culture has brainwashed us into pushing, pushing, pushing when sometimes the best thing to do is pull back
Resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Sarah: We're human. And we are in, I think very nuanced, very contextual situations that change. We are in like peculiar habits and histories. And we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that is a challenging individual and interpersonal that collaborative work
Nancy: Lately I've been feeling stuck, stuck with the question of what comes next saying to myself.
There has to be more right whenever I'm in this place for too long, it usually means I'm looking for the quote unquote answer, trying to find the perfect next step. And I'm all wrapped up in fear, doubt and insecurity. So today on the show, I have Sarah Kathleen Peck, the founder and CEO of startup parent, and the host of the startup parent podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate every day in sanity.
You're in for a unique treat. On this episode, Sarah turned the tables on me. And coach me through my everyday and sanity, which is exactly what I was feeling.
You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.
We are continuing this month's theme of being human with my own humanness on display. As you were talking, Sarah spontaneously started coaching me and helping me get out of my own way. And it was incredibly helpful. Sarah is a writer, speaker startup advisor, and yoga teacher based in New York city.
She's the founder and executive director of startup pregnant, a media company, documenting the stories of women's leadership across work and family. In addition to the startup pregnant podcast, she is the host of the let's talk podcast about productivity, meaning and living well and amazing and interesting factoid.
Sarah is a 20 time all American swimmer who successfully swam the escape from Alcatraz nine separate times once wearing only a swim cap and goggles to raise $30,000 for charity. Sarah. And I talk about the two types of people. There are people who know what they want, and they're having a hard time going after it.
And there are people who are stuck and don't know what they want. The idea that we all know the answer to what comes next. We just need to get out of our own way, what I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way and how our culture has brainwashed us into pushing when sometimes the next best thing to do is pull back.
I am so excited today to have Sarah K. Peck on the show to talk to us about being human fitting in with our theme of the month. Welcome Sarah.
Sarah: Thanks for having me so good to be here.
Nancy: So we were talking before I hit record about the fact that I have been feeling very stuck lately and for a variety of reasons.
And you had just written a wonderful blog post about that, that I had read before I hopped on. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is totally what we're talking about because I'm feeling stuck and Sarah's going to fix me. (laughter)
Sarah: I want to know what are you feeling stuck on?
Nancy: My business is going well but it's kinda like I have all this time, which is ironic considering what we were also talking about. The fact that Sarah has two kids and time is of the essence for her, but I don't have kids. And so I have some of this extra time and I'm, I want to, I'm wanting to know what I want to fill it up with next.
What's the next project I want to take on. And everything sounds every. I don't know if you have it ever have a mood like this, where nothing sounds good. Like it doesn't sound good to take the day off. It doesn't sound good to binge watch TV. It doesn't sound good to take a nap. It doesn't sound good to work.
Just everything just feels yucky.
Sarah: And what do you want like something to feel good about a direction to go? Can you tell me in your words what it is that you want?
Nancy: I love how we're doing a reverse therapy session here.
Sarah: I have to ask these questions. If you tell me a problem, we're going to go there.
Nancy: Okay Ask the question again. What do want? Is that what you said?
Sarah: What do you want,
Nancy: I want to not have such a loud, inner critic that I call a monger. I want to have to be excited about what I do, which I am, but I want, I'm struggling answering the question.
Sarah: Most people do by the way, struggle.
Nancy: Oh, that's good to know. Yeah.
Sarah: while you're thinking about it, I'll just say, so I do teach a course on getting what you want. And the hardest part of the course is figuring out what you want. I usually divide groups of people into two. There are people who know what they want and they're having a hard time going after it.
And there's people who are stuck in. They're like I don't know what I want. And I think a lot of our lives are figuring out the answers to both of those questions. What do I want next?. How do I go after it? So if you don't know. It sounds to me from knowing you for just a few minutes, that a little bit like hazy, like there's you're not satisfied, feeling a little flat, maybe about where you are like that flat, okay, I've done these things.
What's next is a question you might be asking, where should I go? What should I do? And why? Okay. But what do you think?
Nancy: I agree. I'll answer the question, but I have one other question. Do you think that people know what they really know the answer to the question they just can't get out of their own way to answer it.
Sarah: Yes, I actually do.
Nancy Yeah. Okay. So you think it's. You just have to stop all the crap to get to it.
Sarah: So my next question would be, what have you tried? What are you what are you exploring? And when you have been stuck in the past, what have you done that has worked or not worked? So then I would get into process questions around do you go on long meditative walks in the forest?
Do you interview people on the podcast? Do you talk to friends? What are your tools in your toolkit for getting unstuck? And it's fine. Again, if you have not thought about this before and not done it before, because the best thing, then we get to experiment, then we get to try not to be like, what am I going to try?
Nancy: Because I would say in a practical sense, it's between two things that I want to spread. I want to talk more about high functioning anxiety. That's what I want to do. I either want to do that in the form of writing another book, or I went to do that in the form of starting up a YouTube channel and doing videos.
What I really want is to write another book. Okay. But I have a lot of, that's a waste of time. You shouldn't be doing that. You should be doing something more productive for your business. You shouldn't be just, sitting at home, writing a book.
Sarah: Okay. And how do you feel when you say that out loud?
Nancy: I feel like that's really. Stupid is the wrong word, but that's just no, I really want to write a book. Like I wish I could just get into that position and being like, no, I really want to write a book and hold that and not waiver
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, no apologies necessary.
I, I think from the outside, like what's really cool. And listeners might hear this too, is you, it's very clear what you want. You've got a want and you've got a should, and then you've got all these noises. Cause you said, I, it, people listening. She said I want to write a book and I heard you say it like four times.
I want to write a book. What I really want to do is write, I want to write a book. And the second part of that is what I want is I want to write a book without all the second guessing without all of the, those voices. My interpretation of that, and this is a. A working, living practice,
I haven't achieved, this is what I'm trying to say. But my the best way I could work with this is that when you have those voices, they are actually clues and they tell us a lot about what we want. So like those loud voices, those, I shouldn't do it at it. I should be, working on my…
all of those shoulds are those little tiny gremlins that are actually really clear clues about the things that are important to us, that we care about, that we want that maybe we don't even we don't have a good reason, like a good logical front brain reason for it. So we're scared, right?
We don't know why we want something. We just know that we want it and that our heart craves it and that it could go wildly wrong. And so it's scary. Yeah.
Nancy: The irony, and just to show everyone that even when you are an expert, doesn't mean you can get out of your own way. That's what I write about are these little gremlins characters.
I have them. So it just and I know that's what it is, but it doesn't make it any easier to get out of my own way.
Sarah: A hundred percent. Actually this is legit. Why humans need other humans? Because we are in it in psychological terms, we are reflective selves. Like we learn so much about each other by reflecting off of each other about ourselves, by reflecting off of each other.
And so the things that we teach about the things I teach about the things you teach about and the things that we're learning about doesn't mean we're immune from it. It means we're also human and we're going to go through the same doc gosh, darn thing. It's going to be just as hard for us. And yeah, we're right, right there.
Okay. So what, who I know now I'm asking you all the questions, but what do you want to write about
Nancy: I wrote a book already that is about and hopefully listeners know that is about the inner critic. The, Its call the happier approach.
It's about the monger, who is my voice for the inner critic. And then I have two other characters. One is the voice of false self-compassion, that's called the BFF. And then one is the biggest fan, which is our voice of kindness and wisdom. And I went to, and so when I wrote the book originally, I did not talk about, I really it's really concentrating on the monger, but now I'm realizing that it's that BFF, that voice of false self-compassion that has more of a play than I realized.
And so I'd like to write a book about her and how she sabotages us by make secretly and so that's what I want to write about, oh my
Sarah: God. I love this. Do you have stories already? Do you have do you have an outline? Do you have shapes? What is it, what is the feeling of wanting to write the book look like for you?
Nancy: I don't have an outline. This is what I tend to cause what I tend to do when I'm feeling stuck is the first messages you have nothing new to share. You don't know anything. And I literally can't grasp anything. Like I, like even if I sat down to write an outline, it would be blank. But when you say, how do I, like what comes up for me when I'm like, oh my gosh, this to me, this BFF piece has really been a game changer and figuring out self-doubt and getting out of my own way and recognizing that I sabotaged myself through giving my self false self-compassion and, or judging other people.
To soothe myself and I spend a lot of time in those places, not moving forward, if that makes sense. So I feel there's. When I settle myself there's a lot there.
Sarah: What's this voice, his name? Is it a persona? Like I know it's the voice of false self-compassion, but is she, does she also have she's, I'm like, who is she?
Nancy: I have a visual of her and she's, and I call her the BFF. Cause she's like your high school BFF. Who's whatever. Totally awesome. You're going to be great. And she's such a bitch. I can't believe she said that about you and let's go get, let's go get donuts or let's drink a six pack.
We'll be fine. We just need to, blow off some steam, that voice. And so I based her off of Amy Schumer. Okay. The comedian that's who the, she looks like, cause it's just like fun and up for anything the party. Not the person, Amy Schumer, but the character she plays.
And so it is that idea of whatever I want to do or that idea of whatever you do is perfect. Oh, wisdom to her voice. It's just, whatever you do is amazing. And it can cause people to stay in toxic relationships and overeat and over drink and all those things, it comes up in this book I don't want to write the book because I'm comparing myself to all these other people and my BFF is judging them for what they've written.
And therefore that makes me feel like, oh, I can't write it.,
Sarah: Oh interesting. Because you, so part of it is the I don't know what the drifting towards complacency, like they're always encouraging you to be like no, we won't do it tonight. We'll, we'll drink beer and watch a movie because.
It like everyone watches a movie on Friday night, don't work so hard. You're like, do it tomorrow kind of thing.
Nancy: yeah, you got it.
Sarah: I know that one. Yeah. So I actually I'll tell you a tiny side story. So when I was in my twenties in San Francisco everyone, this is super bowl thing.
People love football. And they were like, everyone would be like, oh, let's watch the super bowl together. And I was like, I can think of a lot of things that are fun to me and sitting, watching television is not one of them for me. And especially like drinking and overeating is not my cup of tea.
So I finally found my path towards watching the super bowl, which is that I would do a half marathon in the morning when they finally wanted to eat a lot and sit down. Because I just run 13 miles. And that was just me.. The voice that comes up in between is that I'm abnormal. I'm weird. Why can't I do things like the way that everyone else does them, why don't like everybody watches this show and they like drink some beers and they like, the advertisements, like why do you feel so fidgety and irritable, and like, why is this not fun for you? And owning that part of yourself that wants to do something else, whether it's like walking through the forest or painting your toenails or whatever it is running 13 miles. I don't do that anymore. My hips are too screwed up, but yeah. Okay. So that's part of it is the, like the complacency, the kind of like insidiousness of oh, take a break.
But then part of it is that she's a bee and she's judging people all the time. So you're afraid of being judged that way.
Nancy: Exactly. Like it's that, it's the cool girl that you want to fit in with. And so you do all these things to appease her and I, and I think, that piece that you said, which I, and that's why I talk to my clients a lot about building self loyalty is a big theme of my work, but owning that part of you that doesn't want to do what everyone says you should do, or the norm quote, unquote, whatever that means is is, that idea of constantly turning my back on who I am and what I want.
That's what I've, that's what I'm doing because in so many ways, but knowing what you're doing and doing it differently are two very different thing.
Sarah: I also think that like that, there's a reason this is all coming up for you now, because if you're going to write about this, you need the material.
And so part of this is like just document for them days, everything that comes up, like every single way the voice comes up and then, oh, there's the book, like it's going to be, it's actually in a weird way going to make writing the book easier because you're going to come up against every single word.
The voice comes in.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, that idea of slowing down and just trusting that it, everything will come as it's ready and not knowing the line. I have always struggled with knowing the line of I need to push through this versus just be patient and it will come is, has always been it's something that I think that is insidious with anxiety in general.
But we are plus the idea of mostly it's, I'm always going to push through that's what Western society teaches us. Just keep pushing. And sometimes the power comes and pulling back.
Sarah: There's so much here because, a friend of mine also is she also has a lot of anxiety. And one of the things that she has said is she's at the end of the day, I don't always know what.
To believe because you don't know which one is actually me because I trained for so long and all these other voices, like the dominant, patriarchal, oppressive of masculine hustle, culture, voice is one. And it's inside of all of us, the pay it's the Puritan work ethic. It's the idea that if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and work harder as an individual, you too can get anything done.
And if you haven't, it's your fault, right? That's that is smashed into us. And then there's the like gendered voices that we all have that, we could talk for hours about the ways that women are trained and cultured and the mean girls and all the different people. And it affects men too, right?
In different ways. There's gendered ways that men are affected, especially when it comes to tapping into and understanding and respecting emotions. And then we're all just left here being like, so whose voice do I believe in which one is actually. Mine,
Nancy: right? Yeah.
That's the hard part. And so for me, a lot of times, which I haven't been doing interestingly as we're talking, I was like, oh, cause for me, it is, if I could just bring in a piece of kindness even to say, oh, it just really sucks that you're struggling with this right now. That's just so hard just to be able to.
In doing that, I remind myself that I'm actually a full human being, as opposed to, I think I get stuck in this thing that I'm a machine and I can push through when I just need to keep going. But the, I, when I can give myself kindness, it's like something flips inside of me to be like, oh yeah, you are a person.
Sarah: You're not a machine. You're not a robot, no matter what's going on Silicon valley aspires to. Exactly. Yeah. There's so much of the noise of the interwebs of all the blogs and all the pseudoscience is people who dole out really bad. About arbitrary. Unreal, perfect worlds. Oh, all you need to do is have a little more willpower.
I'm sorry. Are you living in a pandemic with two small children? Trapped with them in a New York city home? Because I am, I don't think it's about willpower. I'm using my willpower not to punch a wall. (Laughter)
Nancy: Yeah. I wish we had more of that refreshing frank talk. (Laughter)
Sarah: like I did. I spent it, I used all my willpower now.
What do you want me to do? Tell me where's the willpower Beck. Is it free? Does willpower grow on trees? Thank you. Thank you.
Nancy: Yeah, that'd be great. If you could just purchase it out of a vending machine,
Sarah: but that's not how it work. And we're human and I love that you said this we're human and we are in, I think just like very nuanced, very contextual situations that change.
We are in like peculiar habits and histories. Like we have all these old, I don't know, what do they call them in in my yoga trainings coming out, but they call them samskaras, but we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that isn't is a challenging individual.
Interpersonal that collaborative work.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah, because those default patterns are strong, man. You use a well-worn path that is hard to unhook.
Sarah: Oh my gosh. It's so hard. So the questions I just asked you for people listening, by the way that we went through I'll tell you like, this is the course in a nutshell, although I have like lots of videos and little rabbit holes that I take you down to, but I ask what do you.
Now, what is it that you want? And if you don't know, how will you figure it out? The good news, if you don't, this is like the punchline. If you don't know what you want, the good news is actually that what you want is to know what yeah.
Nancy: Ah, nicely done.
Sarah: Great congratulationsr. Now our job is to figure out and the next step is how will we, what have you tried?
What have you learned? And if you're like, oh, okay. Or nothing, and I've tried nothing, it's then great. Your next 12 weeks are an experiment. I want you to try one new thing every week and we'll go from there. And then I would layer into that two more questions, which is, who is it for? And why is it so important?
Like what's behind it. What is, what are you hoping to get out of it? Whether your own personal transformation or joy, or just a simply because I want to or because there's someone, who needs to hear this and you're hoping to transform someone else's.
Nancy: Because that's, one of my big messages is you can't waste time.
And how, you're not wasting time is if you can, cause that's what struck me about your article. Yeah. The article you had on your website about being stuck is it was like, we won't know how I don't waste time as if I know what the finished product is going to be.
And I can play it all the way out and be like, oh, that'll be worth it. And you were like, we won't know that you answered that right away. Right away. You said, you won't know. And I was like, oh no. Oh,
Sarah: I know it's so disappointing. Let me just I empathize with this because it's so frustrating for me too, but let me just explain and clarify, like here's where some spirituality might come in.
For those of you that are spiritual or religious, or you believe in a higher power. But also if you're a total science geek like me, it works in all sorts of. Let's say you do have the master plan. And I don't like the word master. Let's say you do have a glorious plan and you know how it's going to play out.
And you're like, yes, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to write the book. And this is how it's going to transform people's lives. What's the point it's boring. If you've already played it out in your head and you already know everything that's going to happen, then your job becomes one of a cognitive machine where you don't get any delight or joy or serendipity or surprise.
And I think that the majority of us actually cannot fathom how many things we can do with the time we have and how much we can grow. Like we are so limited at times in our imagination, the things that we imagine are short-sighted and they're so small compared to all that we can do. And so this is where I know there are phrases.
I used to study Bible school and I don't anymore. But what are the, like what somebody who is spiritual will know, we will be listening to this. Only God knows the plans he has for you. It's like a phrase that I've heard. Other people say you cannot know the plans the universe has for you. You cannot even imagine and fathom the scope of all that you could potentially do.
And so why make a plan to try to stick to it? If you could know, it would be boring..
Nancy: I just got chills when you were saying that. I have to say because the cog in the machine like that is, what's so fascinating about it is I want to, I don't want to be a cog in the machine, obviously. I don't want to be a I don't want to be a robot, but my default pattern is to try to be a robot.
Sarah: You want to know what the certainty you're craving at some, for some reason. Yes.
Nancy: And that's but then when you're like then I would just make you robotic and I'd be like, oh yeah, I don't want to be a robot. Okay. No
Sarah: squash the joy. Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: Like part in part, like one of the, one of the characters that comes along with joy is frustration and annoyance and all in sadness and gladness and happiness, like all of the different you don't get to pick out the emotions that you want and discard the rest of them.
So if we want a life that has joy, and if we want to experience these things, we also have to experience the other yucky stuff. We have to try it and see, we got to see okay, I'm going to try to write this book. And then, three weeks later you're like, Fricking sucks. Like I don't want to live with whatever it is.
And you're like, okay, now I know I tried it like, but then underneath it, you dig past a few pages. You're like, oh my goodness. I wouldn't have known this tool was here in this book is actually about this,
Nancy: right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was interesting. I was just talking with a client a couple of weeks ago and she was saying how, this is such a simple example, but it's so accurate that she was driving somewhere.
And she was like, I'm going to listen to a podcast because that's what a good person does in their cars. They listen to podcasts, then they expand their mind, yeah. And then she was like, oh, but maybe I think I'm just going to listen to music. And it was just like she said, and I don’t know where I just turned on my music and she's which I never do because I always have to be productive, listening to podcasts.
And she's and I just danced in the car and it was just like this, I got out of my head. It was just this amazing 10 minute commute. And it was all I was doing was listening to music. And I'm like, yes, like that's what you're just talking about is that idea of, let me get out of being a robot and do something that's just fun for the sake of fun.
Yes. And I don't know where it's going to go, but gosh, that's hard.
Sarah: I'm talking about productivity for this mix of productivity. Yes. So like it's never all or nothing. I think being productive. Delicious and driven and efficient, like that can be wonderful. And also the last 300 to 500 years of like obsession with the industrial efficient, like the industrial complex is so overdone right now, there's more to the world than being productive, but we have all ingrained it so deeply in this Western rational, scientific culture.
And here's where I want to be a little bit. Counter-culture you, do you have more men or women listening to your show?
Nancy: I have more women.
Sarah: Okay, good. But this will be for everyone, but actually, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to edit that and take that back because the patriarchy harms everyone.
But it is how do I say this in a way that makes sense. One of the weapons of patriarchy and white supremacy, one of the weapons of power is convincing people to work as fast as they possibly can because it keeps them tired and it keeps them complacent. So if you can't breathe, if you don't have time remaining to have 10 minutes of joy to listen to music, because it's simply gives you pleasure to read a book without checking your freaking phone to do the things that you're allowed to do because you're allowed to be here right now. If you are so busy trying to chase the next thing, it actually takes your power away from you. Somebody else is controlling the power and in the culture we live in today, especially in the world of patriarchy, this harms women more than men, but it does harm everyone.
We're so stuck being busy that we don't. Yes. So this new, what did you say you can't waste time? Yeah. Yes, you can waste as much time as you need to. It's your life.
Nancy: And that's the, you know what I always constantly say to myself is who's saying it's wasting. Yeah. Like where does that?
What's the definition of wasting time versus that's right. Being productive because reading a book for your. Can be productive, right? Depending on your definition. I think
Sarah: if you tune into the feeling like really tap in and be like, why am I doing this right now? Am I doing this for my own desire and pleasure?
Or am I doing this because I should, the woman who got into the car and listened to a podcast, probably on double speed. We're not going to, we're not going to go to our grave being like, and this woman listened to half a million. These are not actually accomplishments separate from. And I think we've unlearned the joy of learning.
If you are listening to things because you are so enamored or you're so curious, or you want to be learning something, or you're just hungry, like there's such a special relationship with knowledge and information and wisdom where you at, where you are. Just crave it and be like, oh my God, but how does that work?
How does that work? Why is this well, where does that come from? I'm curious, like that kind of joy of learning is really beautiful and sometimes it leads you down a rabbit hole where you're like, okay, I'm going to learn corporate law and accounting and one variable statistics because I'm going to do it and it's not going to be that fun.
And you can shoot on yourself and be like, I'm just going to get through this. And then later on, you'll be able to dance with all of that because now the design of corporations is an art form to you because you've mastered the technique, right? Learning piano skills, maybe there's time when doing the repetitions is not that exciting to you, but you are striving towards a place of joy.
Yeah. Nobody thinks that having bleeding blisters from running the guitar chords is like a radical act of fun, but being able to play guitar for the rest of your life at a campfire whenever you want. It's pretty cool. Yeah. I don’t know. We just went, I just went down a big rabbit hole, (Laughter)
Nancy: (Laughter). No, I was just, like, oh yeah, I'm running this interview until I need to
wait a minute. Who's asking who ?!?!,
Sarah: I tripped you up because in the beginning I asked you all these questions. I was like let's get right into this. Yeah, no,
Nancy: I appreciate it. So one of the blogs that, and this is similar to what you were just talking about. One of the blogs you wrote about was because I want to, or because I don't want to are perfectly acceptable answers.
Sarah: Yeah. Have you ever lived with a three-year-old?
I actually think, I don't need to spend more time with children, regardless of whether or not you like want to have them on your own. Which, five months into a pandemic is a dubious decision. I'm kidding children if you listened to this, but regardless of whether or not you are the what's the right word owners, that's not the right.
What is that guardians, there we go as like we're parents, but also whether or not you have them yourself. I think being around children is so lovely because it teaches us so much about how to see the world and how to play. And like sometimes you see what they do and you're like, I need to be a little bit more like you, right?
The three-year-old that's no, I don't want to wear shoes today. Or like I'm wearing a purple shoe and a pink shoe and a glitter bra. And you're like great. Like you do you that can be enough of a reason. So often we're searching for external validation. And I think this is again where we give our power away.
We're looking for other people to validate choices that we already know we want to make. And over time that actually arose. Our relationship with our own as Martha Beck would say our essential self. So when I ask you something like, what do you want? If you aren't practicing, cultivating a relationship with that voice inside you that says, this seems fun.
Ooh, I want that. Let's try this. And the essential self, not the what's the word? The, for me, it's the one that eats, half a cup of fish, food, ice cream at night. It's I'm tired of just one fish food is the type of ice cream, chocolate ice cream for those listening. It's the deepest knowing the deepest desire that hunger inside of you, that's like between the bottom of your belly and all the way down to your pelvic floor.
There's a sensation it's different for different people. There's like a tingling sensation. I'm not talking about the sexual one. And it tells you like a spark. Like I want this I, and I don't know why. But I just do I have a hunger for this. I have a craving for this, and I want to, I think so many people have lost touch with that sense sensibility and it's I don't know.
It might be the most important voice that we have that we can cultivate listening to.
Nancy: Ah, yeah. I totally agree. Yeah, I saw it in myself. Yeah. And I see it in my clients. The idea of I'm feeling when it comes to feelings, I'm feeling sad. I shouldn't feel sad.
I should be grateful. There's so many things to be, or I'm feeling really frustrated with my kids right now. Why shouldn't be a good mom would not feel frustrated. And and a lot of times I'll be like, you're feeling sad, period. That's what you're feeling. It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or a bad thing, or why or what.
Is what it is. And when I was finally able to say that to myself, that's when things started shifting, because I could just be like, this is what it is.
Sarah: I have so much I could talk about here with feelings, because so two things that you said that really stand out to me, like first, when we use that should word, I shouldn't be feeling sad.
We're invalidating our own experience. We're completely denying ourselves the reality of actually you are feeling this thing. I think we're so scared of feeling those things because we haven't been given a roadmap, like how should we express and feel feelings. Most people think they're going to stick around forever.
The good news is an emotion only lasts for 90 seconds. Usually.
Nancy: that's my favorite statistic I love that.
Sarah: And for me a lot of times, they have these layers. If anyone has watched Shrek, you can be like, why can't you be like cake, cake has layers. We have layers to be like cake. So feelings of worth of layers and the ones on the top aren't necessarily all there is. And we can feel lots of different things. At the same time. We can be devastated and sad that someone has passed away and relieved that we no longer have to care for them because it was so much work.
Like you're allowed to feel both of those things at the same time. You can feel like bittersweet and you can feel angry. You can feel, I have two small children and they, I like bounce around from, oh my God, I love you so much. I want to eat you, which is such a weird feeling, but I have, I like want to eat them, which I don't understand.
But also like expletive face, like feeling like I need to buy a punching bag so I can, punch a bag. Please add an agenda. There was no harming of children involved right before or after, like none of this actually happened. But stealing is in there and You can feel lots of things at once and there are layers to them.
So sometimes for me, I feel super, super angry. Anger comes up first and if I start to express it, if I allow myself to express it, which is usually, which is hard for me because angry women, like people are not supposed to be angry. Men have more permission to be angry, punch a pillow or a scream. I get a pillow, I scream into it.
I got on my Peloton bike and I like turn the dial up as hard as it can go. After I express the anger. Usually what comes next is. I'm actually really sad and that sadness comes out and I don't know why I'm crying, but I'm crying on the bike and there's some music playing and it's usually like a sappy inspirational song, Rocky theme, I start crying.
And then I there's like a clue and I realized. Something's really hard and I'm sad. And then I'm scared is usually the next and I'm scared. I'm nervous. I am so scared about being good enough parent. I'm scared that my job won't work, I'm four years into an entrepreneurship path and we're now profitable, which is great, but it's gotta make more money.
How am I going to make that happen? All of these things COVID is driving me bonkers and I don't like that. It's is really itching my skin (laughter)
Nancy: wearing on your soul, (Laughter)
Sarah: yes! Wearing on my soul That's right. So yeah, there's like feelings, capital F we don't have a good map for how to have feelings collectively.
We're all like, pre-adolescent at best in our training for how to have feelings. Like no one taught us. This is what it looks like in your body. This is where it lives. These are the sensations, like bubbles in your stomach, feel like this. And like loose bowels might correlate to that. You get the nervous shits.
Sorry. I don't know if you're swearing.. What does that mean? Like when does that come up? We don't. We're not taught to see these as patterns and start to map them out and analyze them and be like, oh, you know what? I always get these nervous flutters. And it's always related to things that are really important to me.
And then I'm excited about maybe this is excitement and fear, and then how do I feel next? And how do I feel afterwards? And it's oh, you know what, if this is my pattern, this is my loop. It's an sorry for the confessional, but not sorry. It's like nervous shits. Then I get excited. Then I get super stinky armpits.
And I need to wear black t-shirts because I sweat through on stage, but then I feel powerful and I feel alive and I feel connected. And I feel proud of myself and I will take that Sonata every time. But yeah, I will take those four emotions at the end. If it means I've got to take them with some nervous shits and some sweaty armpits.
I'll do it.
Nancy: But it's noticing the mean, I think too back to the, not to keep bringing it back to being human, but it, because if I treat myself like a robot, I'm not going to see the patterns. If I treat myself as a human being, I can start recognizing, oh, I do this. And then I do this. And then I do this.
And it's more of a open exploratory than a rigid control all the time.
Sarah: And we get so shortsighted about fixing that specific oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way. This means that we put meaning on top of that specific feeling. And then we also. Sticks that feeling. And I actually, especially for people who deal with anxiety, I think that trying to fix a feeling sometimes causes more anxiety.
Nancy: Oh, absolutely. I think much of anxiety period is not dealing with feelings.
Sarah: That's right. That's right. And so that some things my, years of cognitive behavioral therapy have taught me or to identify the sematic, the bodily experience. So start to become a scientist and just write down everything that's happening in your anxiety.
Tingling on skin hair on end Twitch in my right eye, like tapping on my foot, like wherever it is in your body, I start to. Become really analytical about it and write it and then take notes at predictable times over the next couple of days, because you start to see these really cool story arcs that happen and how things relate to each other.
And then you can evaluate instead of clamping down and shitting on yourself, like this experience was bad. Adding that judgment on top of the observation, if we can refrain from that judgment, say, okay, Here's what I observe. Here's the story now? How do I feel about this as a holistic thing? Oh, okay. You know what?
I do want some of this to go away. Now I can go talk to someone or learn about merges and who else has dealt with it, but there's so much immediate collapsing. I feel so nervous and I get a stutter and I trip over myself and I want to vomit and all of that's bad. And therefore I should crawl into a hole and die and it's okay, slow down you.
This is myself talking. I'm not telling you what to do. They live in my head too.
Nancy: Oh my gosh. But then what I, then what we do is we'll be like, oh, I'm back to productivity. I just read this article that says, I have to get up at 5:00 AM. And I got to do these. These are what success. These are the five things successful people do before 5:00 AM or whatever.
Yes. Yes. Instead of recognizing, do I want to get up at 5:00 AM? Is that when my body works best? Is that when I have the time to do stuff or is it better for me to stay up late? That's right. And paying attention to what works for me, not just some random expert that I found an article on Facebook about
Sarah: who's be BSing their way through, in any ways, like whether or not they actually know what they're doing.
They're just posturing. Most of the time
Nancy: Yeah. Okay. Flipping subjects completely. Because we were just talking about social media. I recently stepped away from social media specifically Facebook and Instagram and shut everything down for a variety of reasons, some of it political with much of it, political with a Zuckerberg, but also just because of anxiety, it just was not serving me at all. And I'm like, I help you with anxiety. I can't be telling people to go on social media. Cause I know it's not good for anxiety. And I thought that you took a break or taking a break.
And so everyone keeps asking me, how's it going? What's happening, blah, blah, blah. So I wanted to ask you those same questions.
Sarah: I know it's I have a hard time with all or nothings. But I do try to dial it way back. I actually wrote a piece for Harvard business review about taking a social media sabbatical.
Cause they try to take one every summer for a month. I take a break. And then, in, in a regular pattern, I might take a day off every weekend. Try to leave my phone on a room for a day just to reset my body because news the media, social media phones and devices are. Very much designed to take advantage of our psychological system and our nervous system.
And there's documented evidence that, and I'm sure you've shared this with your folks as well, but there's documented evidence that like, when we sit at a computer, we don't breathe and not breathing deeply. We do breathe, but we take these shallow little sips of breath and then we hold our breath and that alone can cause anxiety.
You might not have a problem other than a computer problem. Now, please, I'm not going to diagnose you are validated. You absolutely may have a problem or an Whatever we call them diagnoses, but they can be exacerbated by not breathing. And one of the things, so in paying attention to all these patterns in my own life, some of the patterns that have come up for me include if I do 30 minutes of deep belly breathing and 30 minutes of exercise where my heart rate gets over one 40, I can keep the majority of my anxiety at bay in that I'll have a healthy, as much as I can understand.
I'm using air quotes, like normal amount of anxiety in any given day. Like I'll still fret. I'll still be stressed. I'll still be, but it doesn't seem to get so intense as to feel really bad or militating. 30 minutes of exercise, heart rate over one 40 and 30 minutes of deep belly breathing, which means I have to not be on a computer or a device.
Yeah. Walking through the forest really helps, like in an ideal world, the things that help are also talking to a friend for an hour going for a walk outside without a device, listening to music, like all of these become tools in my toolkit.
Nancy: Because you have been observing yourself
Sarah: because I've been observing myself and I've worked with a therapist now for 10 or 12 years, multiple therapists.
And so they have also been observing me and say, oh, Sarah, have you exercise lately? Screw you exactly. I know I should get on the bike. My husband will be like, Hey, you want a bike today? I'll be like, I don't bike today. Sorry about that. I'm really sorry.
Nancy: It is just like this, the last thing I want to do, even though I know it's good for me, I know I'll feel better.
Sarah: That's great. I don't need to go on a walk. There's not a bad thing,
but back to social media. So I take some breaks and I know these things about myself and I pay attention to like, how does it make me feel? And a really simple experiment you can do is okay, I'm going to get on it. How do I feel? What is the feeling that's causing me? Do I feel lonely?
Do I feel sad? Do I feel anxious? What's the instigating feeling. Okay. How long did I stay? Just glance at your clock? It's 1 54. Okay. Now you're stopping. What time is it? Two 15. You spent 20 minutes. How do you feel now? And a lot of times, like I get sucked in and I just keep scrolling and there is no end.
And then I'm ending up in that place where I'm like looking at someone else's life. Like I'm like, how did I find this high school friend from 27 years ago? Now I've learned that they've had a baby and I'm wondering what their baby name is, but I don't. And I looked up they're busy. I don't even know why I got here.
So that's what I would call like the not good for me. Social media use and. And I just pay attention up that one doesn't make me feel good, but the good news is social media and phones and devices generally are beneficial to us when we engage in one-on-one or small group activity. And so that's the part I miss the most when I take a break, is that my groups, like the people that I talk to on a regular basis to people that I message, like some of us use those platforms for specific one-on-one communication and one-on-one connection with other people is beneficial.
That's actually the best connection we can have. So for me, if I'd take a break. It needs to be a short amount of time. So I don't lose a lot of social connection or I need to proactively set up like, all right, I'm going to reach out to these 20 friends and send a calendar, or I'm going to set up 20 coffee dates with people and send a calendar invitation and talk to someone every day for an hour, because I need something to replace that habit.
I cannot willpower my way through. Just don't do it.
Nancy: right, yeah. Yeah, because that's something I really have is I've been texting people more than I would have commented. Like I would have just commented on their post on Facebook and now I'm like, oh, I'm going to really reach out to them.
But I, as you were talking, I was like, one of the things I use social media for is I will go on there to figure out what do I want? Oh, interesting. I comparing myself to other people and seeing what they're doing and getting ideas. This is what I'm telling myself, but really it, if I pay attention to how I feel, I just feel crappier.
Like it isn't helping inspire me because I'm looking outside of myself for an answer that's inside of myself. So that's partly why this is happening to me right now, this whole, what do I want? Cause I can't do my normal. Let's just go online and figure it out. Even though that doesn't work anyway. You know what I mean?
Sarah: That's right. That's right. It's so easy to see other people and they get so distracted because we think that we should want what they want. But we have to remember that what they see, what they're showing us is a fabrication, right? Yeah. It's not their real life. It's PR it's just, it's the, yeah. The happy, positive, curated, or the outreach version.
Like it's just, it's not it's most people post two things on social media, things that inspire outrage or things that are like super happy milestones and rituals,
Nancy: right? Yeah. Yeah.,
Sarah: They don't say hey I had a fight with my husband today and then I worked it out
Or did you know that mashed banana really is hard to get out of the car.
Like these riveting moments in our lives of the day to day
Nancy: . Yeah. But what's, yeah, what's been interesting is since I posted it in this forum that I'm on for small businesses and now I've become like, everyone's like, how's it going? What's happening? All this I'm going to do it too.
And I'm like, I'm not causing a social movement here. This is just something I've decided to do for me, because I do think that each person's relationship with social media is different and can make that decision themselves. But just because I say, oh, I'm taking a stand. It's been interesting to watch people be like, oh, I should take a stand too.
But I'm like, you don't need to take a stance.
Sarah: Maybe you gave them permission. They're like, oh, you know what? I actually want to try.
Nancy: Yes, totally. I hope that's the case. Cause I don't want it to be like, oh, I should do this. Cause I have a lot of, I've been thinking about it for a long time. So I have a lot of detailed arguments as to why for me, this is a good choice and I've shared this with people and they're like, oh, that's so well thought out.
I should totally agree with you, but it's your life, like you need to decide social media too. But that is for me just to, as a reminder to myself and to everyone else that list that, that conviction I had on that decision. And even when someone says like, when you're like, oh, I need it. I like it for one-on-one communication in small groups.
So I can only do it a short amount of time and I'm not an all or nothing person. If I wasn't really clear on my. Stance or how it affects me that would've wavered me. Then I would have been like, oh, maybe I need one communication too. Or I'm being overly dramatic with the all or nothing thing. So I need to stop doing that.
Like it would have caused my own guy. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've done my own dive into this particular subject. I feel solid in it. And so I don't get, I'm not wavering with every person doubting me.
Sarah: Okay. So let me get geeky here with some folks. And I'll send you the Harvard business review article.
So what I wrote was I actually did four different experiments with social media sabbaticals, and I did four different, I designed a four different ways of doing it. One of them, I blocked it from nine to four, and I only did an hour in the weekday afternoons for four to 5:00 PM. One of the, like another week.
Or another month, they only did Friday afternoons. Like I set up specific different types because I wanted to try it and see. And so my recommendation would be for people, if you're in that place, this is actually right back to where we started. This conversation is what do you want? If you don't know, then we're going to try it and see, we're going to try something. So you have arrived at a place where you're very clear about what you want, because you've done the research. You've thought about it. You've looked at your own self, you've done the inquiry. You've been examining and analyzing. You're like, okay, this is the best path. But for other people who, and they're probably happening right now, they're looking at how thoughtful and meticulous your research is.
And they're like, oh, I want to try that. Now when you try it, people listening, if you think if you try it and then you get five days in and you're like, oh, darn it. I really need to get on Facebook because I need to contact so-and-so because this is the only place I know how to find her.
That's not a failure. That is a data point where you're like, oh, fascinating. This is what I use this tool for. Or if every night at 6:00 PM, you're like, you just need a beer and a scroll. That's a data point. You're learning about yourself. Okay. This is the time of day when I really love scrolling for 45 minutes.
What if I just allowed that? What if I said, you know what? I'm going to go off social media like this, but every night at six, I get 45 minutes and ask yourself that question in the beginning. Do, how do I feel before, during, and after now, if you feel like a POS at the piece of poo, if you feel awful at the end of it, then that's another data point.
You're like, oh, every day I do the scroll for 45 and I feel awful. Huh? What could I do instead, maybe next week, what I'll try is I'm going to try asking friends to do phone calls at 6:00 PM. That's what I've been trying instead set something up where I'm going to talk to someone for an hour and then I'm going to measure again, how do I feel?
I'm such a scientist, by the way, I'm going to better again, how I feel at the end. So you don't have to get it right? Nobody has a map for your life, right? And you, if you don't know. Just do an experiment, try it and see, play around and be like, you know what? I'm going to try this week. I'm going to try that next week.
And I'm going to learn as part of the process. I
Nancy: love that. Yeah. And that applies across the board. Yeah. Not just social media, I'm saying like that you just walked us exactly through how to do an experiment, to figure out what I will tell you.
Sarah: I have a book called your life as an experiment that I've written 40,000 words of, and haven't shipped
like one of my life philosophies is try it and see, I guess I'm a little, I get a little concerned now it's my turn to be in the seat. But I'm a little afraid that I'm telling people your life is an experiment and that they're going to be like, screw you. It is not you don't know what I've lived through.
Like what a white girl thing to say. And so I'm just like sitting on it and being like, is this really. Is this essential messaging and I don't know what to call it. I might call it, try it and see, but I really do believe as you can tell people listening, do you wanna email me what you heard from this?
Please find me on my website and tell me what you think. But I want to find a way to share this message that we don't need to know the answers. And you can treat your life a little more like an experiment,
Sarah: But it is, I think for so much of our lives where we get caught in the weeds, it's just because we've got to get more done.
Nancy: But I think, I totally hear your, why you have your doubts and why you're debating it. And, I think that is across the board is something in, in a variety of ways that we need to know that because we have, even in our white supremacy systems, everything is so rigid.
And to be able to see it as an I can get out of this shackle for lack of a better word. And be freer more free. Yeah. If I view my life as an experiment and not something that's right or wrong in everything I do that's right. And everything I say I have more freedom to make mistakes and therefore make more changes in the world.
Hopefully bettering other people's lives as well with, through social justice or, just thinking even I know. Been working with DEI, doing my own work on racism and this experiment piece of it has been the key to that's right. Because if I'm not experimenting and sharing my views around stuff, I'm not making the changes.
That's right.
Sarah: And it's and, start small, come up with a hypothesis do your best to do the research and advance where you can, we're not just going to walk out there and be like, whoa, like here are all my thoughts on racism on the next brown or black or other first, because that's not effective and useful and it can be harmful, but we are going to do a lot of learning.
We being me. And let me just speak about me, do a lot of learning and say, Hey, how can I change this? What could I try? What can I try next? What can I try next? Yeah,
Nancy: I think it's a much needed resource.
Sarah: Thanks. Let me go put it together while they're sleeping in my spare time. During that time I'm not punching a wall. Exactly.
Nancy: Oh, Sarah, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for your time and your being willing to flip the interview, so to speak. And I really appreciate that and I feel so much better. Like I have to say this morning was rough for me. And after this conversation, I feel so much lighter and yeah, it's in there.
Sarah: Oh, I love hearing that. I They don't have the bandwidth to do coaching anymore. I used to do it unofficially because I just get so curious about people and I ask them questions. And so I put everything I knew into this course, it's called get what you want. And it's what we did.
This is this, so if you need a video of me, I'm not going to, if there's no flagellation, there's no I'm not going to whip you into shape. I'm going to ask you kind questions. I'm gonna ask you thoughtful questions. And people have told me that it's oh, I'm allowed to listen to myself. Whoa.
Nancy: That's awesome. I'll give you the link. So tell people where they can find you and we'll put all this stuff in the show notes, but
Sarah: just, yeah. So two places Sarah K peck.com is my personal website. I go by my middle initial because Sarah peck.com wasn't available. And I'm sometimes on Twitter.
I'm more often on Instagram at Sarah Kay. And then I have a company that I run a called startup pregnant. We are changing the name to start up parent later this fall. And it's for working parents and entrepreneurs and people running businesses that are also navigating pregnancy and parenthood and career all at the same time.
So that right now you can find us everywhere is at Serta pregnant. And then we're going to move over to startup parent.com. And we're in the process of getting all those new social handles. But if you type in, start up P probably by no go, I'll probably
Nancy: Beause I know a lot of people are, struggling before, but COVID is, as we were talking about before we hit record and said a whole new level of being a parent and running a business and working and all that stuff.
Sarah: It's so hard for so many people right now. Yeah.
Nancy: But so had their get some resources, get some support from Sarah, check out the, get what you want page.
Sarah: Yeah. www.sarahkpeck.com go to courses and you can find I've got, oh, too many. No, I'm not going to drag myself like that. I've got planned lots of courses. And one of them is called get what you want. And I'll send you the direct link to, for your peoples.
Nancy: Awesome. Awesome. Okay, great.
Thank you, Sarah. Thanks. I admit when I started this interview, I was not expecting the tables to be turned and Sarah to coach me, as we were recording, my monger was screen coming at me. What are you doing? This is your show. You're the expert. And yet I wasn't listening to that voice because underneath it was my biggest fan saying, let's go with this, who knows this might be helpful.
And isn't that what we're doing here. It isn't all about. And when I relaxed into it, I gained a lot and I hope you did too. Being human. It's messy because there's no right way. I know when I start looking for an absolute right way, I need to pull back and loosen the reins a bit. I'm writing a new book, very early stages, but I will be exploring the BFF character.
She doesn't get as much attention as the monger, but she is just as damaging.