Episode 126: Setting and Keeping Habits
In today’s episode, I talk with Sarah Von Bargen about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway.
Habit is one of those words I have a negative reaction to.
Like a lot of people, I have tried to create healthy habits and tried to be super militant about maintaining them, only to fail miserably.
What are we supposed to do? On one extreme, we have the voice of the Monger who is constantly beating us down for this failure – not exactly motivating – and on the other, we have our BFF who encourages us to rebel against anything habitual.
So, yeah, the word habit brings up all kinds of stuff for me.
This is why I wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen of Yes and Yes, the “lifestyle blog for smart, funny people.”
Sarah is an expert in setting and keeping habits. She writes and teaches on Yes and Yes about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway.
One thing that struck me about this interview with Sarah was her emphasis on small manageable changes – the opposite of my old pattern around habits. Healthy habits are not about all or nothing. It’s about habits that are small and realistic and intentionally honoring yourself (all that self-loyalty I talk about). Way less dramatic than my old way of being but far more productive!
Listen to the full episode to find out:
What it looks like to give yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit
How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first
How to tell the difference between caring for yourself and numbing out
Some approached you can take to decrease your phone addiction
Why the 21 days to set a habit is BS and how long it REALLY takes
Research and resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Sarah: I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once the name becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself.
Nancy: Hey everyone,
before we get into regular programming, I just wanted to check in and say, Hey, how are you doing during these crazy times? I know from my clients and for myself, anxiety is high and I have been saying, you aren't doing it wrong. If your anxiety is high. You're just being human. So be kind to yourself, go hour by hour, and sometimes it will be minute by minute, check in with yourself, acknowledge your feelings and get into your body as much as possible.
Just so you know, I'm checking in every day on Instagram, live at 10:00 AM and then I'm sharing it on my Facebook and my Instagram. So feel free to tune in there for tips on living with high functioning anxiety, through COVID-19 and for now sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode. And I'll see you on the other side, take care of yourselves.
Be kind.
Today we're talking habits. Habits is one of those words. I have a negative reaction to. I spent so much of my life in extremes around habits, setting a goal to create healthy habits and being super militant about it, motivated by my monger only to fail miserably because our mongers they're not motivating and having my BFF step in and take me to the other extreme of having no habits and rebelling against anything habitual. So the word habit, it brings up all kinds of stuff for me. This is why I really wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen, who is an expert in setting and keeping habits.
You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.
I'm your host, Nancy Jane.
Sarah writes and teaches about setting habits, money and happiness on her blog. Yes. And yes, as Sarah describes it, it's a lifestyle blog for smart, funny people. Sarah has a kind thoughtful way of approaching habits that I thought we could all benefit from Sarah and I talk about self-defeating behaviors, recognizing them and taking action, despite them giving yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit.
How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first. Caring for yourself versus numbing out, decreasing your phone addiction and why the 21 days to set a habit is total BS and how long it really takes.
Sarah. I am so excited to have you here talking about habits and how we are going to be forming habits.
What about habits intrigued you? How did you get into this life?
Sarah: Oh, gosh. I would say like many things that I have found myself teaching. It is something that I came to relatively naturally. And I didn't think what I was doing was noteworthy or a big deal, but I kept getting questions about what's your secret?
How did you do this? How did you pull this off? And I had to work backwards and realize oh, I was able to change careers in a pretty drastic way and become successful in a honestly very competitive field that lots of people drop out of it. Because I built a daily writing habit and then I worked backwards from there.
Okay. Like how did I build my daily writing habit? And that sort of was a light bulb moment for me that I did this thing that has affected my life in huge ways. And I know that can affect other people's lives in huge ways. And I think that it's I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once something becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards this goal or chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself. Of course, it, it takes a minute to build that habit, but once it's there, you don't even have to I have a pretty robust morning routine and honestly, my brain isn't even on for most of it. I'm not drawing down my control or my decision making, I just get out of bed and do these series of things because I've been doing them for years.
Nancy: Do you think personality type has something to do with it?
Sarah: I'm sure. Personality type plays into it. I am an I N TJ, I'm an Enneagram one. I'm a Virgo. If any of those things mean anything to you, you can just imagine what my brain looks like. So I'm sure that personality type plays into it, but also a lot of it is honestly like neurology like digging neural pathways, building new neural pathways self narrative. A lot of the tools that you would learn about in therapy apply to this kind of stuff. Literally writing down things with your hand to dig neural pathways. So some of it is personality based, but somebody is also just cited.
Nancy: So would you say it's I keep thinking lately that a lot of it is making a choice. Like it is like you have to make the choice to keep doing it, to rebuild those neural pathways.
Sarah: Yeah. You have to, you usually have to reach a point in your life where you either want something so badly, or you are so frustrated with the state of things that you are willing to engage.
You are willing to change things, and that doesn't just apply to habit, but it applies to everything like ending a relationship, changing the way. You eat the way you move your body, the way you spend your money, the city that you live in, but being willing to make a change and being ready to take the steps necessary is the first thing that needs to happen.
Nancy: So tell me about your favorite personal or work habit and why you started doing it?
Sarah: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I would say the habit that brings me the most joy is that every morning I read a novel on my sofa with my dog sitting in my lap while I drink a cup of coffee and it feels so luxurious. And so like it just, and I sit next to the window and I usually am reading something. I only read stuff I enjoy. It just feels so nice. Like I'm not rushing anywhere. I'm not trying to learn something that I can apply to my business. I'm just reading a book that I'm excited about while I drink coffee and like the sun rises over the neighborhood. And that's one of the eight parts of my morning routine.
But it's the part that really it really fills me up.
Nancy: . Okay. So that takes me to a big word. Like I could hear a lot of my listeners being like, how do that's so decadent,
Yeah, give yourself the permission. How do I deserve to do that? And they feel like they have to earn that. I'm only going to read a fiction book if I've earned it.
So how do you break that cycle?
Sarah: One of the things that I tell myself and I tell anyone I work with my students, my one-on-one coaching. And I literally have this printed out over my desk. And so this is, and I say this not as somebody who like this came easily to, this was something I had to work on, but you do not need to save happiness.
You do not need to earn. You do not need to put up off. Because I think, especially for, like the try-hard do goodery type A's of the world, which I'm raising my hand. Because I'm right there with you. We think like I can do something nice for myself after I finished this project, I can do something nice for myself after I like drop off that casserole at my friend's house.
After I cleaned the house, after I pick up the kids, after I fill out that spreadsheet. And when we keep putting it off the likelihood that's my half and it's going to be very low. And the other thing that I would say, something that I see happening so often is that when we spend our entire day making decisions managing other people, putting other people's needs before own.
By the time we get to the end of the day, the likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that is actually like good is very low. The likelihood that we're going to self-soothe by net watching seven episodes on Netflix by scrolling our phone by eating an entire bag of pizza rolls.
Again, I am raising my hand. Like buying things we don't need. The likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that's actually, if we step back and we think what actually makes me feel better? The answer is rarely entire big of pizza rolls. The answer is more like taking a walk with my dog next to the river, calling my best friend.
Reading a chapter from that novel that I liked, but when we have spent the whole day putting other people's needs before ourselves, before us, the likelihood that we're gonna be able to make decisions that are in our best interest is extremely low. So it's much better to do that stuff earlier in the day and do it more frequently to have a release valve.
So you're not making those awesome decisions later in the day, humans actually have, we have a limited, the psychological term for it is ego depletion, but basically what it means is we have a limited amount of ability to make good decisions. And we have a limited amount of self control, and we've all had this experience where we make a bunch of very virtuous decisions and then at 8:00 PM, everything falls apart.
So it's much better. Treat yourself early and often, do nice things for yourself early and often because otherwise you end up burned out. If you all know about Gretchen Rubin's four tendencies, rubric obliger rebellion. So if you are kind to yourself early and often, it's going to be less likely that you are self-soothing in unhealthy ways at eight.
Nancy: So it's like setting the intention in the morning. Yeah. Puts you in that head space of First I'm loyal to myself first.
Sarah: And one of the things, and this is going to sound like, oh, how could this possibly be effective? But I swear to God hand to God, this works.
One of the things that I tell. My students. So I teach a class about money and it's going to seem like where's the parallel here? But one of the things that I teach my students is on Sunday night, I want you to look at your calendar and I want you to plan two to three, lovely kind, enjoyable things for your week.
I want you to literally put them in your calendar, whatever, in your Google calendar, I'm in your paper planner, literally put your DM in your calendar. And keep your commitment to yourself to do those nice, lovely things that are going to fill you up. Because if you have things that are fun and lovely to look forward to, you are much less likely in the case with my bank, new students, you're much less likely to overspend on things you don't need because you know where your money and time and energy are going.
And we get 30% of our enjoyment from an experience from anticipating it. If we've all had this experience. Like I know my husband and I are going out to a really nice restaurant this Friday night. I already know what I'm going to order. I know what I'm going to wear. I know it. I know like it's like a 20 minute drive and I want to swing by this cute boutique on the way there.
I'm really excited. That experience is gonna be totally different than if it's 6:00 PM. I like was like, oh God, I don't want to cook. And like seamless over some, fun from my neighborhood Vietnamese restaurant. It would cost probably about the same, but the experience is totally different. So when you plan those lovely things into your week, you get more enjoyment out of them.
You are less likely to self-sooth in an unhealthy way. And again, because of the personality type of the people that you work with, you're actually. A better partner. You're a better employee. You're a better parent. You're better at everything because you're filling your own cup. I'm sure. I'm sure you talk about all the time.
You can't pour from an empty cup, right? Yeah.
Nancy: I love that. Especially the idea of, of looking forward to it, and the, and the idea, I was talking with someone else last week and we have people say to us so what in your life brings you joy like that? Is a buzzword question, and then I'll say, oh, like walking the dog or reading or going out to dinner with my husband.
And they'll be like no, like really? What are the things like as if my answer isn't good enough.
Sarah: Yeah. As though it has to be like, I only experienced joy when I'm standing under the Eiffel tower. No, there are so many things. And I think if we take a minute to step back, like literally in your daily life, when you're feeling happy, I have it.
I have it. In the notes app on my phone when I'm doing something that makes me happy. I have an, I have a note and ongoing note where I just take note of oh, being in nature by myself. Having lunch with friends on a weekday, going to a mat. And then I literally just add it to my notes app.
So then I can have a toolbox to draw from.
Nancy: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Going to the movies, movie matinee. That's like my favorite.
Sarah: Oh my gosh. It makes me feel so smug about my life choices. Like Tuesday, 2:00 PM. Look what I'm doing. And I go to a second run theater and so it costs literally two dollars what can you buy for two dollars, these days.
Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. So the other thing I've heard you on a different podcast, and I don't think this was your phrase. I think it was the interviewer's phrase, the owning your time. And so the similar in the vein that you were just talking about, so many of my listeners are caring for everyone else in their lives, even in that sandwich generation where they have parents and the idea of owning their time feels impossible because they have so many pulls on it. How do you start owning your time when it feels like everyone else is owning it?
Sarah: Oh my gosh. Wow. That is, oh, I have so many thoughts about this. One thing that I would say is owning your time is going to be something it's going to be an ongoing process.
It is going to require some honestly kind of tough conversations, which I know can be difficult for, for this personality type. It's not going to be something that's ever perfect and you're going to get pushed back on it and something that I tell myself that I tell my students, I tell my coaching clients all the time is it is okay to say, no, you are allowed to say, no, you are allowed to disappoint people.
You are allowed to redirect people. If you want your time on this earth to feel the way you want it to feel. Yeah. You can't spend the entire time meeting everyone else's needs. And I know that is hard. I know it's hard to say no, I cannot make a cake from scratch for the church bake sale. I know that it's hard to say no, I don't want to drive you.
I don't want to drive my child, an hour and a half to that birthday party. Like I get it. It's totally hard. If you want you have to make some hard choices and you have to have some hard conversations. A tool that I use in bank boost, which again seems, this is my feel like a strange parallel, but we have a tool that I call the uncomfortable chart.
I encourage people to make moves, to do 20 uncomfortable things over the course of a month. And in the, within the confines of bank loose, it's about 20 uncomfortable things that will add more money to your bank account, but honestly it can apply to anything. And what I think is important is it's not about the outcome of the uncomfortable thing.
It's about the fact that you did it because. It is allowing yourself to be uncomfortable, allowing yourself to stand up for yourself, to advocate for yourself to say, no, it is a muscle. And the more you use it, the better you will get. And so it is literally a chart where I have if you're listening, you can't see this, but I have, I literally have gold foil stars that I put on my uncomfortable chart.
And, you can make something like. On a piece of paper and stick it next to your desk. Anytime you do something that makes you uncomfortable, like saying no, like redirecting someone like making somebody like disappointing someone, put a star on that chart and right next to it, what you did, because I promise you your life will change if you start to be okay.
With being uncomfortable.
Nancy: Oh my gosh. I love that. That's such a great way of thinking about it and doing it differently, like practicing it in a way that's not just set a boundary and speak your needs, but I am going to practice being uncomfortable because that's the bottom line. That's what it is.
Sarah: Yeah. And I think that so often we only want to give ourselves credit when there are some sort of like really cool end result. Like we only want to give ourselves credit when that magazine like accepts our pitch, or we only want to give ourselves credit when our kids on the honor roll.
But the fact is it takes lots of different attempts to, to reach those goals. And we deserve credit for making those attempts. Honestly, there's a limited amount that we can control in the world. Like you can't really control your kid's grades. You can't really control your parents' health.
You can't really control your bosses decisions. You can only control your own choices, your own efforts, your own interactions, but why not give yourself credit for making those efforts? Yeah, it was really uncomfortable to tell him to tell my coworker that I didn't want to come to her mom party.
It was really uncomfortable to tell my kid was super. Upset when I was like, no, I don't want you to drive you across town, in a snow storm to go to your friend's house. So give yourself credit for doing that uncomfortable stuff.
Nancy: I always tell clients they're allowed to be upset, like you're, your kid is allowed to be disappointed.
You don't have to swoop in and fix that. And that is something that a lot of my clients want to. They feel it's their responsibility to make everyone else okay. With their decisions and recognizing no, they're allowed to have that response and I'm allowed to have mine and we can move on with the day and they will get over it.
Sarah: Oh my gosh. Yes. Disappointment is not fatal. Yeah.
Nancy: Okay, so this is a question that I'm like picking your brain personally. Something that a lot of my clients deal with is the kind of the all out, I, we go all out and then we crash. Yes. And then the all out burnout cycle and So how do you know if you're wasting time or if you're just being lazy?
Sarah: Oh gosh, that's a really good question.
Nancy: Like if you need it, like I need the rest, so I'm going to versus I'm being lazy.
Sarah: Really good question. I would say so a few things. One is I. I know for myself let's say that I have been invited to an event. And like I'm tired and the weather's kind of bad and I'm feeling like, I don't know.
If I decide not to go to that event and the feeling that I feel is relief. That means I'm taking care of myself. If the feeling that I feel is shame because I'm like backing out on something that I said I was going to do. That means that I'm not necessarily making the right choice. And I know that not everybody's brain works like that work like that.
And some people are always going to feel shame regardless, but that is something to think about. I think a lot of it also just starts with like really knowing your body. Knowing your brain, because I think most of us, if we pay attention our bodies, are you getting a headache? Do you have a stomach ache?
Are your shoulders up around your ears? Like your body is probably telling you like, okay, it is time to take a break. And the other thing that I think. I know that there is, if I'm truly in like recovery mode, like currently I'm sick and I'm trying to get better. And it is easy. This sounds strange, but it's easy to like for me to relax.
I don't want to say wrong cause that's has a judgment on it, but there's a difference between being like, I'm sick, I'm going to steam myself, I'm going to take a bath. I'm going to put on my comfiest pajamas and sleep. I'm going to watch one of my favorite movies.
That's different than like laying on the sofa and watching seven hours of Netflix. And so I think if you say that you're relaxed, Are you truly like doing things that are going to make you feel better? Like maybe, stretching a little bit foam rolling, like drinking some camomile tea or are you quote unquote relaxing by scrolling your phone for two hours?
Cause that's not actually relaxing. And I know, and that's, a podcast for another day about relaxing sort of wrong. But I think that's something worth checking in with yourself. Because we all need downtime, but are you actually giving yourself downtime that makes you feel better?
Or are you just like numbing out? Cause those are two different things.
Nancy: That's so well said because it was interesting this past. I wrote that question this past weekend when cause I've have gotten in the habit. Friday is my day off and I've gotten the habit of spending all day, Friday, most of the Friday, watching TV and playing some stupid game on my iPad and like totally cut off.
It is what you're describing as not helpful. It's not nurturing. It's not, it's just over and over again. And so I told myself this weekend, I was like, Stop playing the game. I'm doing one thing. The play in the game where I'm watching TV, I can't do both. And oh, it's been so amazing.
Sarah: Yes. It feels so much better.
Nancy: Yes. And then I get sick of TV faster because I'm like engaged in it. And so I've moved on, but it is that's, me recognizing like some of this is a choice. Like you are you're just unconsciously going through your day.
Instead of being intentional about how do I want to spend my day off? And sometimes I do want to completely shut off my brain, but I don't need to do that for the whole freaking day.
Sarah: And you can also completely shut off your brain. But I would say it's especially with phone use and TV watching, there's a point of diminishing returns, and you can shut off your brain and other ways, like going for a walk, taking a bath, reading a nonsense book, napping, going to a matinee of a silly movie.
There are plenty of ways to shut off your brain, but I would say. Watching Netflix for seven hours is not. And also yeah your back's going to hurt from laying on the sofa.
Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It has some, diminishing returns for sure. And I know you've been very intentional, which I love about your phone.
What are some of the ways you've decreased that obsession?
Sarah: Yes. So one thing is I charge my phone. Upstairs. So like I work down, I work on the main floor of our house and so I charged my phone upstairs. So it's just out of sight, out of mind. I, and where I charge it is not next to my bed. So there's no option for me to wake up and immediately look at my phone.
So one of the things I teach in habit school is make it easier to be quote unquote, good and harder to be making it easier, to be good and hard, to be bad. And of course, obviously in quotes there about cooking bad. Obviously, there are all sorts of things we can do emotionally, psychologically about temptation, but just make it easier to not pick up your phone.
So charge it or store it out of sight. I don't do this, but I, if somebody really has a phone addiction make it gray scale movie apps that you want to be. Completely delete the app. That's not an option for you. Move it off the home screen and put it in a folder that says something like, are you sure there are a bunch of apps that you can install on your phone that track your phone, use that block you from using certain stuff?
The thing that I do that I have found incredibly helpful is I simply. Unfollow Instagram accounts that aren't triggering for me or make me feel less then if for some reason I feel like I can't unfollow them because it would be, it would make some sort of relationship awkward. I mute them. And the other thing that I do is in my explore page on Instagram, I go through and I will mark either.
I don't want to see this. So if I say something that's really like diety or very, like a 22 year old influencer, who's like a millionaire with a six pack. Like I don't want to see that. So I mark that as I want to see less of that. And then I will also think about what do I do?
More of one of the things that I talk a lot about with my coaching clients is you want to corral evidence of what is possible. What is the thing that you are working towards? What are the stories you're telling yourself? I can't have that. I can't do that. And then you want to find evidence on Instagram that's possible.
So let's say that you are in your late thirties, early forties and you were trying to get pregnant. And you're feeling really that's really hard and sad. Are there Instagram? People who you can follow, who have done that successfully. If you are training for a marathon, can you corral evidence of other people who are doing that?
If you are, you're trying to start an Airbnb, can you follow people who have done that? So fill your Instagram feed with people who are doing the stuff that you want to do, or having the success or achieving the goals that you want to achieve, who are also, and also with as much as possible, like within your demographic, because if you are a 45 year old, stay at home, mom who lives in rural Oklahoma, like falling, a 22 year old influencer who lives in New York, who's doing that might not be that helpful.
But if you can find people who are closer to your demographic who are having the success and achieving the goals that you want to achieve, it can be incredibly hard. To see if this is possible for them, it can be possible for me as well.
Nancy: I love that. Yeah. So again, back to that intentionality of setting yourself up for, yeah.
Okay. So now I want to switch to the idea of self-defeating behaviors. That you talk a lot about, so walk us through your process for identifying self-defeating behaviors and then how we start reversing them.
Sarah: I always pretty much with everything that I do, I always like to start with one at a time, because the truth is most of us have 75 self-defeating behaviors.
Like we have a lot. So let's try to find what is the biggest pain point? What is the thing. That you are doing most frequently, that is putting distance between you and what you say you want. And so this might look like spending money. You shouldn't be spending eating things that are bad for your health being in contact with friends or romantic partners who you shouldn't be in contact with numbing behavior, buffering behavior, drinking more than is healthy for you, that kind of stuff.
So if you can identify what is the one. Let's start with one, one behavior. And then something else I think is really important to understand and acknowledge is that, and that can remove a lot of shame around all of this is that every behavior is a need trying to be met every self-defeating behavior that you are engaging in at some point in your life.
That behavior made sense. So if you are. And I'm not talking about alcoholism because obviously that's a whole other thing, but if you drink more than is healthy for you more than you want to, maybe that started out in college when you were a little nervous socially, and it was a way for you to fit in and then you move to a new city and it was way for you to connect with your coworkers.
And now your peer group doesn't really drink as much, but you're still engaging in that behavior. So I think it's also really important to approach this stuff. Like without shame and understanding. There was a reason that you did that and at a certain point in your life, like honestly made sense you're at a different point in your life and now we're ready to change it.
It doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you are not smart or that you're lazy. It's simply things have changed. And I also tell people all the time is like some of the most famous, successful people that, Oprah has struggled with eating Obamas. I don't know if he still does, but he smoked.
Larry, I think it was Larry King has declared bankruptcy multiple times. Like some of these behaviors, incredibly smart, successful people struggle with this stuff all the time. It doesn't make you less than to struggle with this. So number one, start with it. Start with. One, what is your biggest pain point number two realize that every behavior is in need trying to be met.
And number three, I would say what we want to do is try to figure, and of course the self-defeating behaviors, they have multiple triggers, but again, if you can find the most common triggers. For a self-defeating behavior, you can work towards changing your response to that trigger. It is very hard to change a trigger, but you can change your reactions to the trigger.
So again, working with the example of drinking more than you want to, maybe one of the triggers for you is socializing. So then you can decide. Okay. My friends, my coworkers have invited me to happy hour. I can either not go to happy hour. I can go to happy hour and I can order seltzer. I can order an appetizer.
I can order a Coke. And also if you are comfortable that you can tell your coworkers, Hey, I'm trying to drink less. So if if you see me ordering a beer, call me out on it. Yeah,
Nancy: I like that. Cause I think, especially for that example, W was one of mine that I was trying, and I, so I stopped drinking for a while to try to get that under control.
And it was the idea I, and I was doing, it was the socializing was a big part of it. And then having something at the end of the day, like I liked having a fancy drink at the end of the day. And once I figured out that it was the fancy drink, it didn't matter that it was a glass of wine. It was just that when I'm done with my day, I need something that signifies the end of the day.
Yeah. So that could be an NAB or that could be a juice with seltzer, in a fancy glass. It doesn't matter. But yeah. And it also was getting, having the experience of doing a bunch of social situations without drinking to know that I could do it.
Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And something that, I think something that I teach my clients as well as something that I call a choice.
Which is I don't try to encourage anybody to go cold Turkey to go from having seven cocktails to only ever having seltzer. But what is one choice up that you could make? So like instead of having four drinks, could you have three instead of driving to target and buying $200 worth of stuff, could you drive to Goodwill and buy 20 bucks of stuff?
What is one choice up that you could make? Something that is. Slightly healthier because for the most personality types going cold turkey is not sustainable. And then you fail and then it reinforces your narrative that you're not good at this. Yeah. Yeah. And it is challenging.
Nancy: I think too. I think a lot of my clients struggle with that idea of that.
If I can go, I still won quote unquote, by going to Goodwill and only spending 20 bucks, make sure you celebrate that win that you made a different choice.
Sarah: . Yes. Yes. And also like you are allowed to take imperfect action in the direction of what you want. Like you do not if you expect yourself to only ever make perfect choices in the direction of your goals and your habit change you're really gonna struggle.
And it's it's okay. It's okay to maybe the habit you're trying to build is going for a 30 minute run seven days a week. You can still give yourself credit for going for a 30 minute block or a 15 minute run. If you are holding yourself to impossibly high standards, the likelihood that you're going to fail and fall off the wagon is very high.
Nancy: So I want to talk about 21 days to create a habit.
Sarah: So that's why, and this is one of the things that like, this is a soap box that I climb on top of. If you've ever read a women's magazine, if you've ever read like a listicle, this is a factoid that's just bandied about honestly, pretty irresponsibly the statistics.
And this is backed by Sociologists psychologists, psychiatrists. It actually takes closer to 65 days to change a habit change from 12 days to 265. And it varies from person to person and have it to have it. So let's say that it took you 65 days to build the habit, to floss your teeth. That does not mean that it's going to take you 65 days to build a workout habit or to build a writing habit or to build a meditation habit.
It, and this is people don't want to hear this, but I think it's so important to know that if you built a flossing habit in 65 days, it might take you 200 days to build a meditation habit, or, maybe it could take you 12. But again, when we set these unrealistic expectations for ourselves, we are so much more likely to fail.
And when we fail and then we start telling ourselves a story I'm not good at this. I can't change. I'm not good at habit change. I should just give up if we are literally making it harder to succeed in the future, because we're strengthening this narrative of what we can and cannot do.
Nancy: So in the 65 days, or just to pull that randomly, is that some of that is the imperfect action.
Sarah: Yes. Yes.
Some of that is failing. Yes, absolutely. So one of the things that I teach in my course habits, school is something that I call a bookmark habit because the parts of my brain, the part of my brain that makes long-term decisions that are in our best interest is different than the part of our brain that makes decisions in the moment.
We've all had the experience where like in the moment, the part of our brain that makes the decision. It doesn't want to, for us, it wants to buy the things that's on sale. It wants to eat the whole bag of pizza rolls. It wants to text our bad news acts. It wants to order three cocktails. But the part of our brain that makes longterm decisions is the part that can say you said you didn't want that.
So I always tell people ahead of time. Let's say you're trying to build the habit of working out every day. So what are you going to do when you're traveling? When you're sick, when the weather's bad, when you have car issues and you can't drive to the damn gym, what is your bookmark habit? What is the sort of the light version of the habit that you can engage in when things are not ideal?
Because if you can come up with that ahead of time, then it's basically a contingency plan. So you already have this plan in place. So then when the weather is bad, Or when you are sick, you have a solution to turn to, instead of just not doing it, because when we don't do it, the likelihood that we're going to give up and fall off the wagon and then reinforce that negative narrative is very high.
Nancy: So give me an example of a bookmark habit for like the working out.
Sarah: So let's say so for me, I walk my dog every day from eight 30 to nine. And that is, I do other stuff, but that's sort of one. Yeah. Bigger workout things. And if it is really cold because she's a little dog, she doesn't want to be outside for half an hour.
We will just do a short walk. If I am sick, I will do something inside during that same time period. Okay. And when I am traveling, I still go for a walk in the morning. I obviously don't have a dog. I don't, I'm not, on a timer. Sometimes I go for a walk at 10, if I'm on vacation, but I still go for a walk in there.
Recently, I usually, I walked it off from eight 30 to nine, but a few weeks ago I had a podcast that I was recording that was at eight 30. So that wasn't an option. So I walked, I took her for a super short walk. I think it was like two blocks. It took seven minutes, but I still kept my promise to myself and I still stayed on the wagon.
I didn't, I didn't tell myself the story that I don't have time for this. I also know myself well enough to know that if I say. I'm not going to walk her now. I'll walk her in the afternoon. That's not going to happen. I know that if I need to walk her, it needs to happen in the morning.
And sometimes I don't walk or sometimes it's just me walking myself because putting her in her snowsuit and putting Musher's wax on a project, it's too much of an endeavor. So I just walk away.
Nancy: So it's not only the commitment to the activity. It's the commitment to the time.
Sarah: Yes. And that's for me some people, that's not an option because of the realities of their schedule, but that's an easy way to do it.
This time has been blocked off for this activity and maybe I can't do the activity in that exact way, but I can do something related to that actually.
Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. I like that. So as I'm creating the habit I'm not, I'm also, I'm in this example, I'm creating the time I'm creating the habit, but am I, do I have baby steps or are my all in.
Sarah:
You mean? Do you start out like not working out, like you work up to work more? For me, because this is literally just walking my dog, so it's not hard, but I wouldn't say let's say your habit was going to the gym. What I always tell people is the habit is going to the gym.
We're not talking about taking it super, like taking a hit class. We are not talking about whaling on your glutes for 45 minutes. The habit is going to the gym. Keeping your promise to yourself is going to the. Sometimes you can go to the gym and literally walk on the treadmill on the slowest pace for half an hour or sit in the hot tub.
But we are building the habit of putting on workout clothes and getting yourself to the gym, swiping yourself in and being there for a set period of time. And then once you've got that habit, once you've done that, and you're keeping your commitment to going to the gym, then we can start worrying about, arguing.
What are you doing when you're there so much? I think a lot of people are so resistant when I tell them that because they want to dive into, going to the gym five days a week and then really going hard out. That doesn't work. Like y'all can try it, but it doesn't work.
Nancy: Because as you were describing that about going to the gym and just, going to the hot tub or just swiping and like my stomach started going, oh oh, that sounds no, I want to do it whole hog. But no, that makes a lot of sense.
Sarah: Yeah. And like you can there's no, I'm not saying that you can't go whole-hog but allow yourself. Go whole hog on Tuesday and then on Wednesday, go and sit in the hot tub and on Thursday, be on the treadmill and then on Friday, go whole hog again. But it's about keeping your commitment to yourself.
And again, and also like any physical therapist or trainer will tell you, like going whole hog seven days a week is not actually good for your body. Like you need recovery.
Nancy: So it's so in that example, my habit is I'm going to start trying to build the habit of going to the gym. And then I get that habit.
Like I go to the gym, I do my thing. Then I'm trying to build the habit of going 30 minutes on the treadmill.
Sarah: Yes. Yes. And I would also say you probably want to do, you don't want to go to the gym and sit in the hot tub seven days a week. Like you want to do something, but I think ultimately people will get bored sitting in the hot tub seven days a week, but just start out by Really cementing that habit and something else that I tell people too, when they're resistant to this approach is the time is going to pass anyway, your life is going to continue anyway.
So why not do this slowly? So it works because when you ask so much of yourself and you push yourself so hard, the likelihood that you're gonna fail is very high. If you have 20 years left of your life or 40 years left of your life or 50 years left of your life, why not do it slowly and get it to work?
Like what's the rush? Do it right. Do it slowly build these habits that can last for the rest of your life, rather than doing this feast and famine sprint and fail thing.
Nancy: Yeah, that's so true. And I really like what you said about honoring the commitment to yourself. And that's what this is about.
Like I'm going to the gym, not because I need to go whole hog, but because I made a commitment that I want to be working out more and that I feel better when I do and all that underneath the habit. Yes. Cause sometimes my listeners get really stuck in the, check it off the list instead.
Sarah: Yes. Yeah. And you can check it off the list that you went to the gym, even when you just worked on the treadmill for 30 minutes, like you're allowed to check that off.
Yeah. Cause that's the habit.
Nancy: Yeah. Yes. I love that. That's a thank you for walking us through that because I think that's was helpful. Okay. Then my last question for you is just because my listeners absolutely love systems and they have a belief that if they find the right system, everything in their life will be perfect.
Which I know is a myth, everyone out there but I want to hear about the Pomodoro technique that you use.
Sarah: Oh my God.
So if you are not familiar, the Pomodoro technique is you monotask, which basically just means doing focus, work for twenty-five minutes, and then it's and you get five minute breaks. And during the break you do something that is unrelated to the other task that you were doing. So maybe. So it is not spending 25 minutes writing emails and then spending five minutes on Facebook.
It's 25 minutes on emails, five minutes, taking the laundry out of the machine or 25 minutes working on a presentation five minutes, like going and getting a coffee from the break room. And something I would also add knowing the personality type of your listeners is that it can be very tempting that like when you're in flow, When you're in the zone in that twenty-five minutes and think, oh, I'm just going to keep going.
The timer went off and I'm going to keep going, resist that urge, because I know what I have found with myself when I do that, I will work really focused for maybe an hour and a half. And then I am completely 100% burnt out, burnt down to a Frizzle, and I can't do anything else for the rest of the day.
Cause I've overworked. So really take those breaks. Because when I do that and when I take those breaks, I can sustain really focused work for hours at a time. Whereas when I just do some huge stretch where I work without any breaks for two hours, the rest of the day is useless because I'm so burnt out.
Nancy: Cause I, when I've done this, I totally agree. Cause I've definitely, every time I hit the 25 minutes, I'm like, oh, I'll just keep going. And and you're right when I have done that it bites me in the butt, but sometimes I find that the five. Like I'll go down to do laundry. And then I get, it turns into 10, 15.
Sarah: Yep that definitely happens. And sometimes depending on the situation, sometimes I'll be like, you know what? Like I need to finish. I've put the laundry in the machine. I'm not going to leave. So sometimes I will finish it, but it just depends on the thing. And sometimes I'll, I'll have a spend my five minute break doing like stretches or cleaning the kitchen where it's something I can just abandon when time is up.
Nancy: And is this mind brain chemistry scientific neurologically how we work?
Sarah: Yes. Yes. Because the amount of time that we can spend in a focused task I think, I think humans can actually spend more than 25 minutes, but sustaining. Over the course of, seven, eight hours that is quite difficult.
And the other thing that I do that I think can be helpful for your listeners is when I have my to-do list for the day, I do not write like finish sales page or, finish that presentation. I say, spend two hours on that presentation and then I'll write four little circles for four Pomodoros.
And then I will color them in as I complete them because we often lovely. We're often very wrong about how much time we think something will take. And if we say, if we set the goal of finished that sales page, and then we don't finish it, we feel terrible. But if we S if we set the goal of spend two hours on that sales page, we can do that.
We can say yes, I kept my promise to myself. I spent two hours on that sales page. I love that. Cause that's so freaking true. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. It takes, it really takes me about a week and a half to write a good sales page which I learned the hard way, because I would, set the goal for myself to finish my sales page, in four hours.
And that is not how it works,
Nancy: no, not at all. So is there a resource you'd recommend to learn more about Pomodoro.
Sarah: I would say just Google it. And it's not much more complicated than I just explained. I know that their app, you can download and stuff and there's a website, but honestly I just have a timer in my phone.
I have two timers that are saved. One that is 25 minutes and I use a little emoji of a laptop with that timer. Okay. And then I have a five minute timer saved and I think there's like a person walking for the emotive.
Nancy: Okay. That's awesome. Okay. So now tell me about where my clients can find you, how they can work with you, all that good stuff.
Sarah: Yes. I am most active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram stories every single day. My website is yes and yes. Dot org. I have been blocked. For God, 11 years. So there are literally thousands of blog posts in the archives. So anything you want to know about like money, habits, goals, mindset, there's stuff in the archives about it.
I have several online courses that I run make it to Cabot school. There's a self-paced version of that, that you can. Sign up for it at any time.
Okay, Sarah, thank you so much. This was really helpful and just I'd love to pick your brain. So it was helpful.
Sarah: Thank you so much for having me.
Nancy: It was helpful for me as well as my listeners. So that's awesome. The one thing Sarah kept repeating over and over was small manageable changes the opposite of my old pattern around habits.
They are not about all or nothing. So first we need to change our way of thinking that to create a habit. We have to do something big and permanent and forever. Creating healthy habits is about being intentional, honoring yourself, all that self loyalty I talk about and making them small and realists. Be intentional, be kind and make small, simple commitments to yourself.
That is way less dramatic than my old way of being, but far more productive.
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