Episode 142: Finding Freedom Through Our Personal Stories
In today’s episode, I am talking with Hillary Rea, storyteller, podcaster, and founder of Tell Me a Story about the stories we tell ourselves.
In the self-help/personal development world, the idea of stories—and the stories we tell ourselves—is seen as a negative thing.
The message is: if we were better people, then we would know all of our “stories”—and if we are honest about them, they wouldn’t get in our way and hold us back from living our full potential.
Instead, we could change our limiting beliefs by simply “changing the story.”
That phrase drives me crazy. As if it’s that easy to change your story!
And while the self-help world might portray stories as a challenge to overcome or as an opportunity to rewrite, I have always seen it differently: stories are what make us the amazing, unique humans that we are.
Today, I’m so excited to introduce Hillary Rea to you. She is a storyteller by trade and has a refreshingly different take on the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories we tell about ourselves to others, and the stories that others tell about us.
Hillary is the founder of Tell Me A Story, a full-service communication consulting business that trains entrepreneurs, leaders, and change-makers to use the art of storytelling as a powerful communication tool. She is also the producer and host of Rashomon, a narrative storytelling podcast in which one family shares every side of the same story.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
How our stories play a role in our lives and how Hillary has found that telling them NOT changing them is how we find freedom
How telling our stories helps us build self-loyalty which is key to dealing with our high functioning anxiety
Her love of storytelling and why it is so important to her and the larger world
What Joseph Campbell’s Hero Journey might be lacking in and what Hillary teaches about the 5 facets of storytelling
Resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Hillary: I've really come to the realization that there's stories we tell ourselves. And there are the stories that other people tell about us or on our behalf. And there are the stories we tell others. And I think that the more we can find alignment between those three different types of stories that are told that's where the freedom
Nancy: in the self-help personal development world, the idea of stories and the stories we tell ourselves is seen as a negative thing.
The messages, if we were better people than we would already know all of our stories. And when we're honest about the stories, they won't get in our way and hold us back. But my guest today, Hillary Rea, a storyteller by trade has a refreshing different take on storytelling and the stories we tell ourselves.
You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.
So you might be wondering what does storytelling have to do with high functioning anxiety? I'm so glad you asked the phrase, change your story has always driven me crazy. We're told to change our limiting beliefs by changing our story as if it's that easy to just poof change your story and stories are what make us the unique, amazing human beings. We are. This is why I was so excited when Hillary and I struck up a conversation about this very topic, and then she asked if she could come on the show.
And I was like, yes, this conversation is going to be awesome. From her first time, performing standup comedy to winning a moth story slam to realizing the power of storytelling in the workplace. Hillary Rea is an expert in the art of using personal experience to build trust, inspire, and help people understand each other.
On a deeper level. Hillary is a graduate of New York University Steinhardt school with a bachelor of music in vocal performance and holds a certificate in audio documentary from duke university center for documentary studies. She's also the producer and host of Rashomon a narrative storytelling podcast in which one, family shares every side of the same story.
Whether you're looking to grow your personal or professional network need to effectively tell the story of your new business or simply need to boost your confidence, Hillary and her team at tell me a story will help you find your voice and share your unique story with honesty and passion.
In this episode, Hillary and I talk about how our stories play a role in our lives. And how Hillary has found that telling them not changing them is how we find freedom. How telling our stories helps us build self loyalty, which is key to dealing with our high-functioning anxiety. Hilary's love of storytelling and why it is so important to her and the larger world and why Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, which we've all heard might be lacking.
And what Hillary teaches about the five facets of storytelling. Okay. I am so excited today to have Hillary Ray here to talk to us about storytelling. Welcome Hillary.
Hillary: Thanks Nancy. I'm really happy to be here.
Nancy: So Hillary reached out to me after we'd had a conversation on a forum about the use of the term stories.
When it comes to negative things, we tell ourselves so often in the self-help world, we hear that phrase. Just change your story. And if you've been following me for awhile, you know what, that, that drives me crazy. And it turns out it also drives Hillary crazy as well. And she's actually a storytelling expert.
So that makes me feel even better that it drives me crazy. So I wanted to bring her on to talk about that concept and a few others related to the stories we tell ourselves. So Hillary, given that introduction, how do our stories play a role in our lives? And how have you found that telling them is how we can find freedom?
Hillary: Yeah. So as I've been thinking a lot about this, I would say over the last handful of months, and then every time I do read or see a social media post saying, change your story, or it's all the stories we're telling ourselves, I get fired up. So I've really come to the realization that there's stories we tell ourselves.
And there are the stories that other people about us or on our behalf. And there are the stories we tell others. And I think that the more we can find alignment between those three different types of stories that are told that's where the freedom lies. And I think the one that we should really focus on is not the story we tell ourself, but the story we tell other people and ultimately that will lead to that reframe the internal narrative that so many self-help people talk about and is the reason behind a lot of our problems.
Like stories that we, and I'm doing air quotes,, like the diagnosis is always, oh, your problem is because of the story you're telling yourself. And yeah, I just don't think necessarily that those are always stories or real stories. And then I think if we focus on the story, we tell other people that will lead to a better story that we tell ourselves and an actual story that we're telling ourselves versus this idea of a story.
Nancy: Okay. So like in the forum, in this thing we were talking about, it was the idea of playing small and the concept was, that's a story we tell ourselves to play small. So using that example, Walk us through what you're talking about, if that's okay.
Hillary: Sure. So I'm going to just put myself in the shoes of that feeling.
So I'm, I feel like I'm playing small or I'm not showing up in the world, whether that's personally professionally on the internet. So I must be small and there's nothing I can do about it, or it feels safe to be small. So I'm just going to stay smaller. So to me, that's not a story to me, that's an idea or an emotional state or sometimes a cultural implication.
It's an external thing that I'm thinking is happening to me this feeling of being small. So yes, I could maybe work with a therapist or work with a coach and kind of dig into that and see what stories or life experiences I had that got me to that feeling of small. Again, this is theoretical me.
I don't have, I've felt small in my life. I'm not saying I've never felt small, but I would then have to find, okay, maybe I got teased in second grade and I can dive deeper into that story and go into specific details, create the beginning, middle, and end around that. And maybe that will then help me to reframe that idea of being small and take the steps to being bigger or to taking up space in the world.
However, I think just by putting myself out there. So I don't, I'm trying to figure out the best way to explain it because it's not, obviously there's a lot of layers to feeling small, but if I am thinking of a story that I want to share with someone else, whether that's one person or. For example, I run a company.
So a story, I want to share on my newsletter each week or a story that I want to share when I'm hosting a live storytelling event. If I can think of that story and the purpose for why I want to share it with people and craft the beginning, middle and end of that experience, I want to share and bring it to life in a super fun and engaging way with lots of details.
And I like to infuse humor, things like that. Then by sharing that story with my audience, whether that's an audience of one or an audience of many, I'm taking a space and I'm putting myself out there and there's this feeling that happens when you do that. And when there is an audience on the other side, listening to you, even if you can't see them or hear them, that gives you that freedom and helps you I don't know. Yeah. Take up space without being like, hello world. I'm here. Dad's handing your way through life. If that's not your style. I hope that makes sense.
Nancy: So you discover through therapy or whatever that, the story, the limiting belief of I'm small, that story comes from something that happened in childhood, perhaps in your example that you made up, then that's the story.
That's the story that when we share to the audience of one or a hundred in person or not, that then starts flushing out the problem.
Hillary:. Yes. But I would like to add that it is in our power to share what stories we want to share so that doesn't have to be the story you would tell your audience.
And I think I can give an example from. I can put together a real life example and see if this go thread. So there was always this lore and it did happen to me, but I dwelled on it since the age of 12 that I was at a friend's house hanging out in her room. So at 12, I liked to wear a lot of vinyl.
So I had a vinyl dress. I had vinyl pants, I had vinyl platform shoes. I had silver mini skirt. I looked like a nineties, future punk rocker. And I was obsessed with clothes. I was obsessed with curating these outfits and I wasn't wearing a vinyl dress the day that this happened, but I owned this vinyl dress that I wore to school.
And I was at a friend's house. And her mom also happened to be a teacher at this very small school that we went to. And an adult friend of her mom was there. And so they peeked their heads into the door of my friend's room and we're sitting there hanging out and the mom's friend wanted to say hi, The daughter.
And then the mom introduced me and said, this is Hillary. She likes to wear trash bags.
Nancy: Oh ,My!
Hillary:. it was this little moment, that I know what she was getting at. It was a vinyl dress that I wore to school, but it wasn't trash bags. But for some reason I let that statement haunt me for forever. Since that happened and I still care a lot about clothing, I'm still very passionate about fashion.
And I think any time I'm less willing to take those fashion risks as an adult. It's because I can hear that voice or hear that replay, that specific experience back in my mind, however, a couple of months ago I purchased this rainbow knit sweater on the internet. I fell in love with it. It was on sale.
It was like this big oversized multi-colored striped sweater. And I remember I wanted to wear it. Like on a date with my boyfriend and in my head, I got that little voice. Like she wears trashbags voice and I didn't put it on. I just wore like gray, which is also my go to.
And then I posted about it on social media. And I posted about it on my company, social media, because of it was a story connected to fashion and it was a story connected to my identity and a story about what happened when I did actually wear that sweater. How did I feel? I heard that story with an audience and not only did people respond in the Instagram post, but I also like the next time I was in an in-person event with people that had read that Instagram posts, they brought up the sweater and said that had made them think of a coat. They had that they were too scared to wear like a very surface level thing, but in sharing a version of the story, that made sense for me, that made me feel good about myself.
I was able to connect with my audience and also rewrite that feeling of she wears trash bags.
Nancy: So it wasn't sharing the story of the woman who said she wears trash bags. It was sharing the story of how you felt wearing debating about the rainbow sweater and then eventually wearing it.
Hillary: Yes. I might have mentioned it in passing, but that, wasn't the main point of the story at all,
Nancy: which is fascinating because.
I assume like in the example I gave, it was the original story, but that has nothing to do with it. In storytelling, in healing, these stories, it's telling the story at a variety of places. In the story, I'm saying a variety of places of how that story makes you feel.
Hillary: Yeah. I guess to clarify, I think it is okay if you are able to dig deep and find the stories underneath the self-limiting belief and it, and by story, it has a beginning, middle and end, and you're sharing your perspective either in the moment when it happened to you or as you remember it.
Now, I think sharing that story is okay. Especially if it's like a confidant or someone you care about deeply or a therapist or a coach or things like that. But I think that there's this pressure, especially in when in a leadership role or when running your own business, either how you represent yourself on social media or how you represent yourself in interpersonal communication, that there's this pressure that you have to share those deepest, darkest woundy story.
And honestly, and I think that fear holds people back from sharing anything at all, or holds people back from trusting that they, as a human being are enough and okay and worth taking up space and not being small. And so my, and what I believe in how I work with people is okay, yes. Maybe those stories are there, but what are the stories that you feel most passionate about telling?
And that doesn't mean it has to be like a happy, joyful story, but what are the stories that align with who you are, what you do and why you do it and all of the, your vision and values and everything, like finding alignment between the story you tell and who you are as a human being.
Nancy: So it's not about dwelling in the stories, the negative stories that as you say, aren't stories, because they don't have a beginning and a middle and an end, but concentrating on what's the story that serves not even serves me.
Hillary: I think it is the story that serves you.
Nancy: Is it serves? Okay.
Hillary: I think it’s serves because the question I always ask is what story serves me in the present moment.
Nancy: Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. Because I was like serves me to me, sounded like a spin on it, like I'm going to put a positive spin on it, but that isn't how you're using serves.
Hillary: No. And I think it also goes back to the focusing on the stories we tell other people as our starting point, versus focusing on the story, we tell ourselves and trying to reframe that in its own inner turmoil, you kind of way, and also to focus less on that idea of the stories other people tell about you, which can also look like, oh, I want to be perceived a certain way, or I want this person to think of me as this and the most terrifying truth that there is that you can't control how that person is perceiving you or your story.
And you can't control what they're thinking about it, even if you hit a message hard or tried to say and the reason I'm telling you this you still can’t control that. So there's no reason to focus on that. The stories people are telling about you. So why not focus on the stories? You can tell other people and that kind of take care, takes care of the story that people tell about you and takes care of that story that you tell yourself.
Nancy: So if you so in the example you gave about the rainbow sweater, did that loosen up the, she wears trash bags.
Hillary: Yeah. I guess, in an ideal world, I would say I haven't thought about it,
Hillary: But, and I feel like I'm in a unique time in that I'm not thinking of fashion so much at the moment because of, I don't, also, should I even, yeah, because we're
Nancy: recording this during the pandemic.
Hillary: Yeah, totally. Okay. So yeah, I'm not thinking about my clothing as much as I normally do, if I'm able to go out into the world. And again, that's not because I want, I care about what other people are thinking about my clothing. It's just how I get dressed to go out into the world right way.
I haven't really thought of that time just because now I have this rainbow sweater story and the rainbow sweater story has come up again. Because it actually, it was two Instagram posts. In an installment of my newsletter that shared this morning. And then since then, every time I put that sweater on, I get the feeling of sharing that story.
Nancy: When in the past it would have been the trash bag story.
Hillary: Correct.
Nancy: Got it. That is awesome. Okay. That makes a ton of sense.
So then let's back up a little bit. How did you become so interested in stories and storytelling?
Hillary: Yeah. About 10 years ago, I knew I wanted to try comedy because I knew I could make people laugh in my everyday life.
It was, it's something I prided myself on and I didn't have to, it wasn't like effortful. I just could do it. And it felt good. And my background was in theater, but I. Never really enjoyed being a character. Like I, I would create like backstories for characters, especially when singing songs for musical theater, because my background was in musical theater.
I would create these backstories that weren't so much the backstory of the play or the musical, but something in my head that would help me tell the story of that song in an authentic way. And so that gave me joy expressing myself in some way, gave me joy, but being characters made me anxious and made me insecure and made me scared to get up in front of people.
But for some reason, comedy, didn’t feel scary or it felt so unknown to me that I'm like I just have to try I don't know what I'm doing. And so I did, and I went, and it was an experimental comedy show that was in an art gallery. And I brought my own laugh track and it was on a, I believe it was on a CD in 2009 or my iPod, but I handed it over to a friend and I said, Hey, can you just play this whenever you feel you want to?
Or if I feel like, if you feel like no on, one's laughing and they should be, can you play it? And so he did. And then that sort of became an additional joke because I had no control over how the audience was going to respond when that was going to happen. I only had control over what I was sharing. And even though in my head, I'm like, oh, I think I'm doing stand-up comedy.
I really shared a story from my life that had a beginning, middle and end. So I would say that was the first. Step into Ooh, I like this idea of telling a story from my life in front of an audience, not because of how the audience would respond, but how it made me feel like that taking up space, finding freedom, which I don't think I had felt for a very long time, just because of I guess the age I was, at that point, like late twenties, but just like feeling, not myself ever since I went to college for performing, which actually made me shut down and made me feel like I never wanted to perform again. Wow. So that was the first step. And then I stumbled across a competitive storytelling shows that were in Philadelphia and then also in New York.
And so I started going to those and for those, it was interesting because you show up, you put your name in a bag, but they only pick out 10 names. So you never actually know if you're going to get picked until the moment before that was so terrifying because I could prepare all I wanted to at home and I did, but I would never know, A if I was going to get picked or B when.
And so when it happened, the very first one, I went to, my name got picked up first. I didn't even get to see an example of all about, I'd never even gone to the show before, but almost that lack of control. Again, took me to that space where yeah, I was terrified but it went away as soon as I was up there.
And in my story, and in the experience I was sharing, which was a story about failing my driving driver's license test at age 24 and having to pee in this wooded area because I was nervous. Like it was, again, a silly story, but I walked away just feeling really good about sharing it. And I, and those types of events had judges and there were scores and I didn't win and I didn't win for years.
And that it wasn't about that. Again, it was like the taking up space and the feeling free and who I was and aligned with who I was in that present moment and the story I was sharing in that present moment.
Nancy: So the act of telling stories, just helps us see ourselves and get a different response from other people than we're playing in our brains.
Hillary: Yeah. And I think the thing is, again, you don't know what response you're going to get from other people. And so it, to me every time, even now, when it's easier for me to get up in front of people and I use storytelling in my everyday communication. So it's easier for me to just launch into stories naturally, but there's always that little bit of jumping off.
It feels like I'm jumping off a cliff. I've never done that. I've never gone bungee jumping or skydiving, but in my head it feels like I'm jumping out of an airplane and flying through the air because I can't control. I know I'll land, first of all, but I can't control. What happens besides just landing and besides sharing what I felt compelled to share in that moment.
And I would say 99.9% of the time, it lands in a super compelling, connected, positive way, even if it's not a positive story. And again, it's not about finding the stories that are the funniest or the stories that are the happiest or the stories that are the craziest thing that's ever happened to you. It just trusting that exchange between you telling the story and the person that's so generously listening to your story is enough.
And it is true and deep
Nancy: Because the idea of change your story kind of demonizes stories. By how you say it, which I think I'd never thought about that until just talking with you. That's what I, that's what bugs me about it because, I can remember when my dad died and it was months later and I said something about how hard it was and that my mom was really struggling.
And a friend said that's just a story that it's hard. You can change that. And I remember thinking to myself, but I want, that's a good story. That's a story that shows how much I love my dad. So I don't want to change that story. Like these stories make up who I am.
Hillary: Yeah. And I think that you don't have to change.
And I think it's, again, what story serving you in the present moment and finding the why behind sharing that story? So the way you just said that now is that's your story, you're taking ownership of it and you're telling it from your perspective, the response you got is someone telling a story about you.
Nancy: Ah, yes, I see. Okay. Yeah. And even that story mean the story that I shared there now we're going to get metta on story. The story I shared was about being my friend, but the story I was sharing with her that was just. A belief on how hard it was, but I wasn't, in my mind, I had a story it's hard because my dad is gone and I love him so much.
And he was amazing. And this way, and I can build up a beginning in the middle and an end to that. And now, and I'm thinking, talking and thinking at the same time, but maybe if I had shared the full story with her of that beginning, middle and end of my relationship with my dad, she wouldn't have said we need to change your story.
Hillary: Yeah. I would say that's probably the case
Nancy: because that's the power in sharing the story. Is you get the full picture,
Hillary: you got the full picture and just the simple structure. If we think of, because there's many definitions of story, as we were talking about, and there's many different ways that stories go out into the world, there's fictional books, there's podcasts, there's film, there's all their stories are everywhere.
So when you said, if I had told the full story, I think that would have stopped her from saying the thing that she said about you. So I think the reason that she would stop that is because you share not only because of the story you shared, but because of the structure of the story, which is no matter what form it takes place, like book, movie podcast, speaking to someone, a story always has a beginning, middle and end.
We learn from the time we're six years old. So I think that's finding, it's not only finding the story that you want to tell, but telling it with a beginning, middle and end structure. And that's what gets the story that someone's telling about you or the belief that someone's putting on you or perception that will help dissipate that or dissolve that because you've shared a complete story.
Nancy: Ah, I'm so glad you came back to that because that is really helpful. So to the same degree then, would you say that because that you had said I hate the idea of just change your story, because it's not a complete story. Does it have a beginning, middle and end, but if I can come up with my beginning, middle and end would that help me?
That might help me change the story because I would see it differently regardless of who I'm sharing it with.
Hillary: Yes. So I think first it's key to focus on the stories that you want to share with other people. And then when you have those stories, like the one that you gave an example of is doing the work as much in advance, as you can, sometimes stories just happen off the cuff in the moment to find the beginning, middle and end of that experience.
And that's what, how it comes together in story form. Got it. Okay.
Nancy: That's really okay. I think that's really helpful. The other thing I don't like about the change, your story, because I didn't realize, because it is chopping off my story but I can change that story.
I can change that story is not what I wanted to say. I can see that story differently by giving it a beginning, a middle and an end and not just being like, oh, I suck at blank, but being like what's the beginning and middle and end of that, what's the story. Full board. Yeah.
Hillary: I think it's finding the story, finding its structure and the word, finding your perspective in the moment, because that's always going to change as well.
Yes, absolutely.
Nancy: Yeah. And that they'll keep changing because even the story of the trash bag, she loves trash bags continued to change as you get older,
Hillary: I think it's funny. Whereas for so long I was deeply upset about it.
Nancy: Yeah. Because now you could see a different You could see the different perspective of, you're not seeing it as a16 year old. You can see it as an adult as well. And about fashion. It just has a lot more to it than just the, I think, because I think so often the messages we're telling ourselves are not fully formed. There's no structure they're just loose and we just believe them. And if we take some time to develop some structure and create a beginning, middle and end story, and then share that story, we can loosen some of the stuff up.
Yes. Okay.
Hillary: That is
Nancy: helpful. We've all heard the idea of the hero's journey. And when I think of the hero's journey, I immediately think of like Harry Potter that Joseph Campbell. Started, I believe he started it. And I know you have a different idea around that and you have different elements that you bring to the storytelling.
So can you talk about the hero's journey and then talk about what you learned?
Hillary: Sure. So I think beginning, middle and end is standard across, no matter what philosophy on storytelling you take. But I used out first, I'll talk through Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, and this is very loose. Cliff notes thing.
So it's that there is a hero and it's usually a man and he's has something going on. He's in one state at the beginning of the story, and then there's something called an inciting incident. So something sets him off on his journey. And through that journey, he encounters many obstacles, many challenges, there's usually a temptress or a villain or things like that.
And then, so there's rising tension, which is the other, a Campbell word. After that inciting incident journey, journey, and then there's like this ultimate climactic moment where something happens. There's some big turning point change. Maybe like a big action event, a fight, something like that.
And then there's the resolution at the end. And the main thing is that the hero is now a different person at the end of the story that they were at the beginning of the story. It's like the standard thing it's ingrained in so much of everything that we consume and have consumed since 1949 when humbled laid that out on paper.
And probably since before that, even, and I always call all those little bits and pieces story ingredients, like the inciting incident, the rising action, the climax, the, and I always have thought those things through, not as I'm crafting my story, but maybe after the fact and in teaching storytelling to other people.
But there was a moment where I started to feel like actually. Things that are more important before you like dissect your story to make sure that it has those things. And also not every story has those things. And that doesn't mean that it's not a good story. And there's so many other ways that a story can unfold.
And that specifically a first person story, which I call personal narrative can unfold. Like we don't, we're not always on the hero's journey, but it doesn't discount that the other things that have happened to us aren't valid or valuable or worth sharing with other people. Basically, because of showing up to a corporate storytelling training, which I used to do a lot of, and seeing that laid out in front of all the participants was this card with storytelling tips.
That was from a different company, not mine. That included a lot of those Joseph Campbell ingredients, so that I show up to this event to teach, but on the table as part of their supplies of this other person’s, sort of definition of story and including these ingredients. And I was like, Hey, in my head, I'm like, I don't really agree with this and this isn't what I'm about to teach.
This is weird that this is here. So after that event, I was like, I need to put my ingredients or what I now call elements down on paper. Yes. Yes. I always believed, but I just hadn't officialized it. Thanks to that, that awkward moment in that event where I was presenting, I put it down on paper. So I call it the five key elements of personal narrative.
And I think that's where I different that there's again, we've said the word story 5 million times, I think focusing and reframing it as personal narrative, especially when you're focused on sharing a story from your life to an audience of one of a hundred, whatever that audience is, it's personal narrative.
And so I'll say all five and then I can talk through. So the five key elements of personal narrative are one your origin story to ownership three beyond the blazer for reciprocity. And five scars over wounds. So I can just give a quick rundown. Yeah. So I think the first element is a really great starting point for anyone who's what story do I have to tell?
What story serves me in the present moment is identifying your origin story. And so that answers the question. How did you get to where you are now? And that's an ever evolving question, right? With an ever evolving answer. So making sure. That you revisit that question and find the story that serves you in the present moment, and that it's not a matter of telling your full life story that got you to the moment where you are now, but finding like zooming in on those smaller moments that illuminate that big story of where you are now?
And in that answers the questions. How did you get your super powers? Because origin stories play a really big part in comic books. And it's always the story of how the superhero got their super power. But if we can think, and again this goes more into the internal story.
Like the story we're telling ourselves, if we can tune in to those super powers that we have, whether that's our values, our strengths, our talents our worldview finding the origin story that aligns with that is. Gives you again, lets you move into a bigger space. Lets you take up space in a truly authentic, genuine way.
So that's origin story.
Nancy: I have a quick question about origin. So that could be if I were anything, I know this is personal narrative, so it's not but if I were like trying to find the origin story for my company, that would, I could ask the same question or the origin story for my story as a mother or my story as a wife or my story as a daughter or just my story,
Hillary: all of the above. I think you can have multiple origin stories and I think.
Even when it's the story of your company and if your company is multiple people or has many moving parts, still finding your journey into that role, into that experience is valid and should be shared even if there's other people involved.
Nancy: Great. That's helpful. Okay. So then next is ownership.
Hillary: Yes. So we've talked about this a little bit already, and maybe just not using the word ownership, but it's. Choosing the story that you want to share with somebody else and making sure that it's told from your perspective through your lens. And so that if for some reason, someone were to go and try to tell your story for you to someone else or retell your story, that because you took, you can't control that.
So because you took ownership of it and you're taking ownership, not only of what happened to you, but how you're sharing it with your audience, then chances are, it will be told in a way that aligns with the story by someone else.
Nancy: So Brené Brown does a really good job of owning her stories because when I, if I retell them, but they're for her, it's from her perspective, is that what you're saying?
Hillary: Yes. Okay. I would say we never, again, we never can control if someone's going to tell a story about us, either back to us or to someone else, but we can control what story we tell and how we tell it. And that to me is taking ownership over not only the experience when it happened to you in your life, because again, this is personal narrative.
So taking ownership over that experience. So maybe Hillary in my story that I'm telling is different from me now telling that story, and I'm going to talk about those differences and maybe there were things in that story I'm not proud of, but I can tell it from my perspective, through my lens and my worldview, and maybe that does bring humor into it, or maybe.
Brings shock and heart to how that Hillary behaved in the story. And so as the teller, I'm taking ownership that yes, that's who I was in that story. And that's how and what happened. But here's how I'm also sharing it with you now, as someone on the other side of that,
Nancy: and that's really what makes the story gritty and believable, that's what makes it because I'm a therapist, so I would say that, but that's what makes it like juicy and rich.
Yeah. You could tell the difference if someone hasn't taken ownership of their story, it's told from a distance as opposed to being in it.
Hillary: Yeah. And I think Brené, Brown's use of ownership too. Is that rumbling with your story idea? Maybe you found the story you want to tell, and maybe you weren't your best idea of best self in that story.
Or there were things in that story that are vulnerable to share or, yeah, it might be uncomfortable for some people, but when you rumble, she uses the word rumble, with that story, and then once you do that, if you're like, yes, I still want to tell that to somebody to me that's when my definition of ownership comes in.
Ownership of that, and just going forward with it and believing wholeheartedly that's the story you should tell.
Nancy: Okay. Got it. Yeah, that's cool. I like that addition to the elements from the hero's journey. Okay, so what's next,
Hillary: next is beyond the blazer. And this came to be because of how I showed up in the world and how I noticed other people were showing up in the world in all aspects of my life, friends, acquaintances, colleagues, and also people that I've worked with on their storytelling is feeling that we have to be initially people feeling like we have to be two separate identities.
There's the personal persona and the professional persona. And no matter what industry you're in or what type of work that you do, that they don't intersect. And that, and there's ways that we behave personally. There's ways that we behave professionally. And what I noticed is that I was hiding behind wearing a blazer.
So when I, and this was specifically when I started teaching storytelling in corporate environments, which I no longer do, but I was, going in and doing a lot of professional development training. And I had never had a corporate job. I just had an idea of what a corporate job meant and an idea of what a corporate job meant for a woman like these general ideas.
And so I thought in order for these people to see me as an expert and to see me as a professional and to see me as. Professional that they paid money to, I must show up in a blazer. And what I was doing was hiding in that blazer, not showing up as my full self personality wise and not teaching, like not giving my expertise fully or giving like I all the whole time I was checking am I acting appropriately for this company culture?
When honestly, I didn't even know anything about the company. And this is the idea of storytelling I think they want to hear. So maybe this one, and again, this is me all like looking back.
Nancy: Yeah. But fulfilling some imaginary persona.
Hillary: . Idea. Yeah. And then any time anything came out, like in those blazer moments where it was like, oh, you used to do standup comedy or, oh, you lived in Japan.
Oh, you studied musical theater. I would laugh and be like, ha yes. And then move on to the next thing. Instead of using those life experiences to inform the work that I was doing. And so all of that and noticing how that played out for other people, like seeing blazer, persona client of mine and personal persona client of mine.
By sharing our stories and sharing stories from all aspects of our life and from all stages of our life experiences, we're integrating the personal and professional. So maybe there are stories that we want to tell for our professional audiences, whether that's us running our own business or leading a team at a big, bigger company, but why not find a story from a different aspect of your life to share that maybe ties to the message of the work that you're doing or ties to the brand or the overall idea.
And it's that integration that makes us feel fully ourselves outside of that storytelling moment as well.
Nancy: Oh yes. I could see that. Yeah. And I think, I could totally see that happening in business, like even the stories I tell on stage, the best stories I tell on stage are personal.
You know where I'm not doing that, but the temptation to do that as strong one and two, I think we do that in just in our world. Like this I'm going to, I'm not going to tell the story at the PTA because this story is it appropriate for that persona, even though if I want to show up as an authentic human being, I need to be, the best stories or whatever stories appropriate, not based on the persona.
Hillary: Yeah. And now I'm going to go back to what I said about you. You can have multiple origin stories because I still do believe that, but I do believe that origin stories should integrate the personal and professional. It should have this beyond the blazer concept in it. Because you brought up that analogy of the PTA.
So maybe there's a how I am a mother origin story, but I still think that can encapsulate other aspects of who you are and what you've experienced. So I think actually if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh great, I need six origin stories. Now I challenge you to actually start with one and then maybe it shifts depending on who your audience is.
But the core of that story is the same. And I've had multiple origin stories in that. Some have served me two years ago and the story I used as the example of how I got to where I was two years ago it's still a story I can share in another context, but maybe isn't my origin story at the moment.
Nancy: I got it.
Yes. Yeah. So even if I'm doing, like I said, oh, this is the story of how I became a mother. This is the, my origin story as a mother, that's still encapsulating all the years before I was a mother.
Hillary: I think, and it's again, not about telling the full story. I just think you don't have to limit yourself to the idea of this as the story, a linear way of getting to how you became a mother.
Nancy: Got it. Yes. So we need to be moving back to one. The origin is the general origin of who we are, how we got here.
Hillary. It doesn't have to be general, I guess what I'm trying to say.
Nancy: I am confusing it more. I had it. And then I tried to clarify and I got it worse.
Hillary: That's okay. I guess all of the elements connect to each other.
In thinking beyond the blazer, in context of any story that you want to tell someone else, it also applies to your origin story. And so I did respond with an enthusiastic yes. When you said, so you can have multiple origin stories. And I was like, yes, that's true. But I would challenge anyone that's curious about finding their origin story to start with one and see what happens.
See if it can be, it can answer that question in a multitude of ways.
Nancy: I see. Oh yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. So then what's the next step? We did origin ownership beyond the blazer.
Hillary: So element number four is reciprocity and. There. I think that there's a difference between, have I got a story for you?
And it's this idea of, I'm just going to talk at this person listening to me and, my story is going to go onto the ether and then dissolve into the air or something. And so it's like expelling a lot of energy out when you're sharing a story and I'm sure that feels exhausting and doesn't feel like you don't feel aligned with the story.
And it's just words it's being talked at. But reciprocity into storytelling is really important because not only is it. The storyteller who's sharing the story. There is a listening ear or ears on the receiving end that are taking that story. They're deeply listening. They're translating your experience into something from their own life to make sense of it and to create that feeling of connection that happens when we share and listen to stories.
And also by taking ownership and showing up and telling your story, you're actually allowing the listener. To think of what stories they want to share in return. And it's almost an invitation for them to share a story, even if not in that moment. Yes. Okay.
Nancy: I love that.
Hillary: Yeah. Yeah. And so always thinking of it as an exchange that you're giving your story to someone and that they're receiving it, but then not that you can control how it's going to be received, but just that there's an exchange and a connection.
To me, it, it evens the playing field. Like we're all at the same level. When we hear a story and share a story, because we're all human. It humanizes it
Nancy: because I liked the idea of not talking at because we have all heard stories where people are just talking, just in everyday conversation where people are talking at us and not engaging us.
Hillary: Yeah. And I think that also comes from not wanting to listen in return. And I think in sharing a story, you also have to be open and willing to listen and return. Even if it doesn't happen in that exact moment,
Nancy: you said the deeply listening. That was part of that. I circled in that the listener needs to be deeply listening, you know?
Hillary: Yeah. And there's all of this science. I don't have all of the facts and figures to go into it fully, but there's all of the science around storytelling where they've hooked up things to the brains of people, listening to stories and people telling stories. And that when an audience is deeply listening and when a storyteller is deeply telling a story that a brainwave patterns sync up.
And I think their original study for that was done at Princeton.,
Nancy: Wow. That is fascinating. Okay. So now we're onto the fifth, right?
Hillary: So the fifth key element of personal narrative is scars over wounds. And I think that's ties back to everything that we talked about at the very beginning of our conversation in that there are some things that have happened to us in life are our life.
I refer to life experiences as what's happened to us before it takes story form, we can choose, we can pick and choose from those life experiences to then create that beginning, middle, and end and craft the narrative around that life experience. So always there are going to be life experiences that we've all had that are in wound phase.
They're raw. They're rough. We haven't processed them. We don't know if we feel comfortable sharing them. We don't even know if we feel comfortable tackling them internally or anything. And that's okay. And you don't have to share something that's happened to you and make it a story in wound phase or wound form.
What are those stories that are in the scar phase? So at something, again, this could be something that maybe felt really awful and tragic at the time, but we now have this new perspective of humor on it, or just the fact that we're so much older or even there are some things that scar up quickly. So something that could have happened three weeks ago phase.
Acknowledge that you have those life experiences that are still in wound stage, but you can say, all right, I'll see you later when you've scarred up. And then we can talk to each other as a story. And so finding the stories from that scar stage is much more powerful, both for you as the teller, but also for the listener, because you're not putting this unraveling of it's like a vulnerability hangover. I think we are in the, and there's always this pressure of, I have to be vulnerable. I have to be true and authentic, and there's ways to do that without dumping the weight of something on someone else or on yourself. And it's, to me more powerful when you can tell, find those stories that are in the scar phase,
Nancy: because when we tell a story that's in the wound phase, especially in a professional setting we're asking people to take care of we're they feel the need to take care of us and boost us up and make us feel better when we're telling the story from a Scar phase. We've done that work already and I could see it. So that's, what's more powerful.
Hillary: And the, where I got this concept from was Catherine Burns, who was the artistic director for the moth, which is a big national storytelling organization. And she wrote this manifesto on storytelling a while ago, many years ago.
And there was just one simple sentence that said, tell your stories from your scars, not your wounds. And so I took that sentence and translated it into this bigger idea. And I would also say that maybe that's where a lot of the coach therapy talk of self-help talk of, that's just a story you're telling yourself is really still in wound phase.
And so it's, and it's not a story. So whether it is an unprocessed experience or. An emotion or a cultural implication or all those things, whatever it is when someone's changed that retell, that chances are, it's still a wound and that’s detrimental to both you and anyone that you're going to share that with.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And so then just dismissing that as, oh, I need to change that then you never get to the point where it's a scar.
Hillary: Exactly. That's a really, I never thought about that until just now. Yeah.
Nancy: So that's yeah, that's interesting. I love this. I love your five. Your five elements, because I think, it's obviously it's so much more in depth than the hero's journey.
And I think, I think if Joseph Campbell knew how much that would be beaten into the ground, he might've thought it through differently. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it just is that's the only way. And so I like that you're bringing in another way. And I think that storytelling, this was, when you approached me to do this interview, I was like, this is why I wanted to do this podcast because I wanted to bring in different not just self-helpy people that are talking about the same thing, but people that have a different take on the same stuff.
We talk about all the time and storytelling and how we tell our stories is just so powerful. I love this work that you're doing and that you were willing to come here and share it in this form. Because I think it's really impactful for my listeners to hear it. Not only to apply in their business worlds, but in their everyday life.
Hillary: One thing. I love that you brought up Nancy outside of this time that we're meeting now is how you defined monger BFF and biggest fan in relation to how I defined stories. We tell ourselves stories that other people tell about us and the stories we tell others. I talk about that a lot.
So yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to. The difference between the stories we tell ourselves, the stories other people tell about us and the stories we tell other people, and that to focus on the story, we tell other people lift the weight or negativity or evilness of story of the other two and in how I think it connects with your terminology, Nancy and your work, which I so deeply admire is that to me, the, and you helped me come to this conclusion that the story that we tell ourselves can be the monger, and that the stories other people tell about us, that can be the BFF stories we tell other people that's the big yes. Fan.
Nancy: Yes. That's really well said. Thank you. I liked that. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it like that at all, but that's true. Now I'm going to have to spin on that for a little bit. Leave us with something to think about. I love it
Hillary: I don't know. You don't necessarily have to keep that in the interview, but
Nancy: no, I think that's really helpful, just also just to bring my work into the whole thing, I think, yeah, I think that's awesome. Okay. So tell us where people can find you, what you're working on, that, all that good stuff.
Hillary: Yes. So the best place to find me is on my company's website. And so it's TellMeAStory. And what I'm working on is working with clients virtually, which I never did before, but now in a world where that was forced upon me, but I'm actually so thrilled about working with clients in this way.
And I think it allows clients to go deeper. It allows me to challenge the way we're communicating when there's a screen in between us and how we can bring that in-person energy and that true connection, how we can get that to transcend a digital conversation. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it.
Nancy: Okay. And you help people figure out what their stories are to share in their business for branding?
Hillary: Yeah, so I guess the way I would put it is that I work with. Entrepreneurs and leaders and those looking to leave a bigger footprint on the world, what story will serve them in the present moment. So helping them brainstorm what that story is, helping them craft that story, and then depending how much they need giving them the push to put that story out and make sure that there's an audience for them to share it.
Yes. So whether that is for business or I produce a live storytelling event. So sometimes it's just a matter of getting people up in front of that kind of audience and telling the story that way. But yeah, I would say most people work on personal narrative with me for professional reasons, but there's personal impact as well.
And then
Nancy: the life story event, you have taken that to be online as well. When is the next, is the next. June 17th, I believe
Hillary: . Yes
Nancy: Okay. They can find that information on your website, but they join that virtually. Yeah. And watch it. Okay. Because I want to, I need to find that out myself. I would like to tune in.
Okay, awesome. And thank you so much for being willing to come on here and share this, your elements and your information on story. Because I think it's really helpful, because that is something we all do, sharing stories and how we can fine tune that to help ourselves and help others is incredible.
Hillary: Yeah. And they're not scary or bad, right? Yes.
Nancy: Thank you. We do not need to constantly be changing our story. Yes.
Hillary: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun. Thanks for having me.
Nancy: This interview was so much fun because Hillary and I were able to hash out the concept of storytelling and narrative as it comes in contact with self-help and personal development.
And both of those processes are messy. I think anytime we can get out of our knowledge bubbles, we can learn more and have such amazing conversations. And that is what Hillary did for me. And I hope you too, since this interview, I've embraced my stories. More looking at them with pride is something that has shaped me, owning our stories is a form of self loyalty when we can own them and see them for what they are.
We recognize both their power and their pain, and we can choose what we want to hold on to.