Episode 161: Experimenting with Meditation and Mindfulness - Part 2

In this episode, I chat with my friend Sean McMullin, the producer of this podcast, to share the results of my 30 days of Meditation Experiment

About a month ago, I challenged myself to a month of practicing meditation. 

As I shared in Part One of this series, I didn’t have a consistent meditation practice prior to this experiment. In fact, I was pretty resistant to it in the first place. (Be sure to go back and listen to this episode if you haven’t yet!)

But I was inspired to give meditation another try because of all the stress and anxiety in the world right now. 

As I share in the episode, I made it to 30 days of practicing meditation and mindfulness. Technically, it was two weeks of meditation and two weeks of mindfulness—and I get into why I broke it into chunks like this in the episode. 

Of course, I had to invite my friend and podcast producer, Sean McMullin of Yellow House Media, back to the show to chat with me about my experience. As you heard in the first part of this series, Sean is someone who not only knows me well—but he also has a meditation practice of his own and I figured he’d be the perfect person to keep me accountable. 

I learned so much from this experience and I learned even more through my conversation with Sean.  meditation.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What went well and what didn’t go well in my meditation and mindfulness experiment

• The role my BFF and my Monger played in the experiment

• Sean and I discuss the role of neuro-diversity, rules, and rigidities and how something as small as closing my eyes became a HUGE stumbling block for me in my practice

• What my meditation and mindfulness plans look like moving forward

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: A little over a month ago. I challenged myself to do a month of meditation. Meditation has always been a stumbling block for me. And so I met with my podcast producer, Sean McMullin, someone who has his own meditation practice. And we talked about my plan for the challenge. If you miss that episode, make sure you go back and listen to episode 1 55 before you can.

This week, Sean and I are back to talk about all the things I learned. If you have struggled with making meditation, a regular part of your life, keep listening because the results might surprise you. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. I made it 30 days of practicing meditation. Really two weeks of meditation and two weeks of mindfulness, but we get into all that in the conversation. I learned a lot from the experiment and I learned even more through my conversation with Sean, listen, to hear what went well and what didn't in my experiment, the role, my BFF and my monger played in the experiment.

Sean and I discussed the role of neurodiversity and rules and rigidity. And now something as small as closing my eyes became a huge stumbling block for me. We also discuss my plans moving forward. Hi, Sean. Hey Nancy. We are back again to do the meditation. Download

Sean: The followup to your meditation experiment.

Talk to us about what, why did you even do this? What was your intention going into this experience?

Nancy: Because in my own life, I had not been practicing a lot of mindfulness and everything was just buzzing in my head. And I was not settled in my body at all. And just plowing forward with everything I was doing.

And so that was one like, that was why now is the time to do this experiment. But the other thing is I've meditation has. Been a thorn in my side, in the sense of, because I help people with anxiety and I experienced anxiety that therefore the top thing anyone says is, oh, then you do meditation.

And so it's always been a point of embarrassment or shame that I don't do meditation, that isn't a regular practice. And so I wanted to be able to put that shame or you. Test that and see, okay, let's really try this and see if you are a meditation person or if you aren't a meditation person, let's really get to the bottom of this.

And that was really the crux of why I wanted to do it. Does that make sense?

Sean: It does. Absolutely. It's interesting for me to hear you talk about meditation and mindfulness is not being the same thing either. Like you can certainly, and we're going to talk more about that, like that. And the connections between meditation and mindfulness approach, this would mean how did you, what was your daily practice?

Did you have a daily practice of the day? Give us a rundown on,

Nancy: so I set an alarm on my phone at two o'clock every day. And my goal was to practice just five minutes just to do a meditation for five minutes. And for me, because I am so rigid in my rules, meditation. Means eyes are closed. I'm listening to a guided meditation of someone telling me how to breathe and where to go.

And I quiet the mind as much as possible for five minutes. That was what I did every day at two o'clock. I didn't always do five minutes. Cause sometimes it was too much. I didn't always do it at two o'clock, but when the alarm went off, it was a reminder of, okay, I need to do this, but in my mind, Meditation it is that eyes closed.

It's a long period of time, two to five minutes, which doesn't seem like a long period of time, but when your eyes are closed and you're interrupting your work day to do it, it is it's hard. My hope was that I would love it so much that I would get into 10 minutes of meditation and 20 minutes of meditation because that's real meditation.

Sean: Did you feel that what you did wasn't real meditation, correct?

Nancy: It was just five minutes. So five minutes is not real meditation. Also. It's been a great lesson for me in the idea of recalibration. And where am I listening to my biggest fan telling me it's okay to recalibrate. And where am I listening to my BFF?

That's saying, screw this. We're not doing this. This is ridiculous. You don't have to do this, stop doing it, which was pretty much every day at two o'clock. My BFF was pretty loud in her. Oh, really? You're going to do this. This is so terrible. Don't do this. This is too painful, but I do think I came to a place that my biggest fan was in charge.

It took me a minute, but I got there.

Sean: Remind me how many. Did you do it for two weeks?

Nancy: I did the five minute meditation every day for two weeks. And then I loosened up my rules a little bit and I was like, what if we just practice mindfulness every day? We didn't have to shut our eyes. Mindfulness. These are open.

Mindfulness means eyes are open and eyes open. A big difference for me in just being able to like, just soften my gaze or my desk looks out on our backyard. So being able to look out the window and so I would put on nice music. I'd look out the window and I just shut my brain off, but eyes were open.

I wasn't doing the breathing exercises. I was just letting my mind wander for five minutes and that I could do for more than five minutes. It's the eyes closed. It's the eyes closed. And so maybe it is my BFF is running the show. Cause my BFF is so freaking loud in there that it was hard for me to settle down enough to get any benefits from it.

Sean: One

thing I do want to say is, are regardless of what your BFF is telling you about whether or not you meditated the, you did meditate because for starters and you know this, I'm telling you things, you already know. It can be 30 seconds and it's still meditation, but the act of just having done it, whether or not you got out of it, what you thought you would get out of or what you wanted out of it, you still did meditate.

Nancy: I guess it's the rules. And rigidities because what did happen, which I was happy about is that. In practicing the mindfulness at two o'clock every day. Once I gave my permission that I could just have my eyes open and listen to good music and just calm my brain, then that started happening more often throughout the day.

So I would keep doing the dishes and I'd be like, okay, we're like, let's just do the dishes here, and practice mindfulness here. Or I would be walking the dog and be like, let's just walk the dog. And it was there a minder of, I know how to do this. More than I think I know how to do this. Okay. So the beginning goal, which was, I need to settle my brain down more and I need to get in the present moment, definitely accomplish that in the 30 days, because I've been able to recalibrate to notice when I'm spinning.

And be able to recalibrate that a little bit, that hasn't been a hundred percent successful, but it definitely has helped. I got a couple of messages from people after our first podcast talking about that I was doing this and they were like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're doing this. I cannot meditate.

It's so hard for me. And so with some of it is. The rules and rigidities we have around, what does meditation look like? And I have a lot of rules and rigidities around that. Yeah. So you would say what I did was meditation. I wasn't eyes closed. Yeah. Breathing.

Sean: It's the process. It's not the destination.

Now I would hope that if I were to struggle every single time, I sat down to meditate, I would propose to you and to myself, other types of meditation that within that rigidity, we think about meditation as being something very specific. And I don't think that it's as specific as a lot of us feel that it is.

You didn't try any visualization techniques. You mostly just did the breathing techniques.

Nancy: I downloaded Headspace.

Sean: Oh, you did?

Nancy: I did, but I didn't pay for it. It was two week free trial. So that's why two weeks on that. I like the heavy guided meditations. I like them walking me through talking the whole time is a lovely British accent guy that was so calming and that I really enjoyed.

And that took me awhile because the first week I was like, no, I want the not guy. Meditation once. And that was too hard. And so once I figured out that it was the guided ones I liked, then I was like, oh, then I would go on YouTube and find guided meditations. But no one had the nice voice as the guy on Headspace.

That was the best. So a lot of times we'd just do the meditation of the day and pick the guided ones. And then I did explore, like you could do watching a waterfall or something and hearing that. And I did that a couple of times, and that was nice. And then I started Googling YouTube waterfalls and would do some of those when I was in the two weeks off of Headspace, because my big fear is I was going to come on here and you were going to be like, you failed.

You did not.

Sean: Oh, it's so funny. You should say that because I was like the next question I was going to ask you, because for those of you out there in the audience, listening. I am married to someone quite similar to Nancy Jane Smith. And so I almost always preemptively know what her experience in these things is going to be.

Nancy, do you feel like this was a failure?

Nancy: I'm trying hard not to feel like it's a failure in the sense of, let me say that differently. I'm trying to recognize that not following the rigidities does not mean it was a failure. So maybe the failure is in thinking that it has to be this rigid. Instead of recognizing that meditation could take on a lot of forms and that the end goal is to be more present and grounded in yourself in the present moment, whether that is because you're doing a 20 minute meditation to start the day, or whether you're doing little bits of mindfulness throughout the day, or you do five minutes at two o'clock, it doesn't matter if the end goal is what we're going for.

And there are a variety of ways to get it. And so when I can get my mind wrapped around that, I'm like, it was totally not a failure. It was a great success because it reminded me of the power of mindfulness. I used to talk about mindfulness hacks all the time and the various ways to do that. And I've stopped doing that.

I stopped practicing that in my own life and I stopped talking about it as much. And so that was a reminder to come back to that because. I think I had gone down the path of, if you're going to talk about it, you got to talk about meditation, so don't bother talking about it cause you're not practicing meditation.

Does that make sense?

Sean: It does I'm very curious to know if you see the connection between your feelings and perception of success or failure and the expectations that you had going into it

Nancy: a little bit, I would say I expected myself to turn into a completely different person who would just be amazed by meditation and the power of meditation and would be transformed by it.

And because that didn't happen, I felt like a failure because it was so hard. I felt like a failure because every day at two o'clock I dreaded it. And even when I got into doing it and I was eyes closed. The days I did the five minutes, I never made it five minutes without being like how much time is left, how much time is left, cause it was so hard. It was so hard. And I think I, that was a failure that it was so hard. Yeah.

Sean: Because what I'm proposing is that sometimes we go into situations with expectations. And then when the situation experience or our performance, doesn't meet those expectations and that if we can let go of the expectation or not even impose them upon ourselves, then there really is no point of reference for success or failure because.

We never had the expectation going into it. Now, of course, this is like, how is that even possible? We always go into things with some expectations, because one of the things that I've found with meditation is that I've had to let go of what I expected it to be and allow myself to learn what meditation is in general.

And is. Through the process because it has turned out that it is not at all what I expected it's to be. In what way? I knew you were gonna ask me that. I think that I expected far more results. Oh, that's more immediate way. I'll admit that I thought that I'd come out of meditation, a session all zenned out, and that just doesn't happen.

Like I'm not even joking. The other day. I had an anxiety attack in the middle of a meditation session and I had to get up after it was over and go take my auxiliary anxiety medication. But was that a failure? I don't consider it to be,

Nancy: and I wouldn't consider that to be a failure. Yeah, it's interesting.

I wouldn't consider that to be a fail because I totally don't consider that to be a failure for, as I said that, I was like, do you think that wouldn't be a failure for me? And I can logically say, absolutely. I could see how an anxiety attack would come because you are calming yourself. You're dealing with what's there.

So when you settle, the anxiety can come up sometimes. And so logically, that makes sense to me. But if that would've happened to me in this time, I would have been like, I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore.

Sean: So moving from what your expectations of meditation were to what you actually got out of the experience, being a renewed interest in mindfulness.

That in a certain sense, there was a lot of success in this experiment.

Nancy: Yes. I would agree with that. Yeah. And today when I was walking the dog and I was thinking though about this conversation, and of course I was like, Sean's going to be like, you're a failure

Sean: and the big, bad Sean's going to come in and chastise you.

Yeah. Like I chastise anyone.

Nancy: Yeah. I put my Monger on you all the time that you're going to be chastising me. And then I said to myself, it isn't. A failure, even if Sean thinks it is, I don't think it is. And that's new for me to be able to recognize it's okay for Sean to think this is a failure, but I don't think it's a failure, but I think most of it is the idea that there's a part of me that is beating myself up because I made up my own rules on how instead of holding to the experiment This is what meditation looks like and that, and the goal of getting to be able to do 15, 20 minutes of meditation by the end of the month, that did not hold.

And so therefore, I, my monger is telling me you wiggled your way out of it. And that's where I say. The idea of being like it's okay to personalize this process. It's okay to recognize doing that is hard for me closing my eyes even like when we would go to church and praying, like that is just a hard thing for me to do.

In general and that's okay. To give myself that permission, but that's new for me to give myself that permission because the idea is always, you're wiggling your way out of this instead. You're not doing it right. Not doing the hard thing. Yes. That is it. Some of it is, I'm not doing the hard thing.

Yeah.

Sean: This is really hard for you and you're avoiding the work aren't you?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. But then it finally dawned on me of why is closing my eyes. The be all end, all of this, like what's the real goal here. And so that's when I realized it was the mindfulness and being able to practice that in a variety of places, I will say the second two weeks, when, so much better than the first two weeks, but I got so much more out of the second two weeks and actually was like, oh, this is nice to take this break in the middle of the day.

One of the things that's so hard with high functioning anxiety is that the push, push. And even when you might recognize you need to take a break, you're so compelled to keep going that you don't take a break and having this forced break in the middle of the day, that was a win that's super uncomfortable for me.

Sean: Have you continued?

Nancy: I have continued. I'm not as rigid about the two o'clock thing. Cause then I gave myself permission to do mindfulness elsewhere other than just the two o'clock time. So I will say, I ha I've done it every day, every afternoon, but sometimes it's at the end of my Workday.

Sometimes it's when I come back to the bathroom, I'll take a break and I'll do it. Like it would be two o'clock. The alarm goes off, drop everything and meditate. That's how I held it initially, but that has changed, which I think, I don't quite know how I feel about that, to be honest with you, because I think some of it was the rigidity, which was hard to hold, but it's also that idea.

If I give myself a pass, I just take a pass. That's why the rigidity is there. Cause I don't trust that I will really do it, but I will say this. The other thing I learned is that when I made it my own. And did you know, the mindfulness piece more so in the eyes open and then looking at my window, I got so much more out of it and it was so much more enjoyable for me.

And that was a lesson to me. It isn't all bad to make it your own, but all my life I have believed I. Broken and somebody else has the better answer. And meditation is one of those things for me, that's like the holy grail, right? If I could only practice meditation, I wouldn't have to deal with any of the stuff I deal with.

That would be the secret pill. If I could just get myself to do it, I wouldn't have anxiety and I could really be helping people. And part of me still believes it's because I did not. Do it correctly, but it still is the holy grail. I just didn't do it. Yeah. If I had done it for 20 minutes, because in my mind it is the holy grail and that has loosened some it's still there, but it's loosened up.

Sean: So do you, would you be willing to revisit meditation in the future or are you in a place where you can allow yourself to let go of it.

Nancy: I don't think I would revisit it. But I do need to really focus on that idea that meditation is the holy grail. Like I think that has loosened. And I think I need to keep loosening that belief because I do think that holds me back personally and professionally, because this is what.

I believed in the holy grail of meditation and that I was a loser because I wasn't doing it. And then I went to screw meditation that isn't the way to do it. And all these people say in meditation is the way they don't know what it's like to have high functioning anxiety. And they're totally wrong.

They're totally wrong because I can't do it. And so screw meditation. When in my book, I talk about how you don't have to do meditation. You could do these mindful. Which I believe, but I was demonizing meditation instead of saying there's a lot of ways to do meditation. It doesn't have to look like this can do it in these ways.

And so I think now that we're talking, I think I was really bouncing back and forth between the monger telling me this is the holy grill and you're a loser. Who's not doing it. And my BFF saying, screw meditation, this isn't it at all. And I, like I said, And the beginning of this conversation, I'm coming back to the biggest fan being like there's a lot of ways to do this.

Let's find the way that works for you right now. And that may change. You may find it. A year or five years that you can close your eyes and do what you think to be as traditional meditation. But right now that isn't the case and that's okay.

Sean: Yeah. Maybe even more than okay.

Nancy: (laughter)

Sean: The best thing. Yeah.

Nancy: But obviously this topic is super loaded for me.

Sean: It's interesting. You mentioned this, like it's either your broken and meditation. Because meditation doesn't work for you or screw meditation. Meg meditation is a big crock of shit, right? Yeah. But there's nothing in between that, like it's interesting hearing you like process that,

Nancy: I think. After this challenge. I came to the I'm coming to the middle more, but I think most of my life I've bounced back and forth between those two extremes. And I think if anything, that is the win of this practice. I it's a win. I didn't really see coming. It's a win that I have been more grounded and mindful and grateful to be practicing.

Like we picked a good month to be truly bringing this back in. So that's a positive, but also the idea of decreasing the trigger that is meditation and bringing it more into the middle ground.

Sean: I love that. So have you thought about what you intended on doing, going forward with this? Do you have specific plans or do you still have to process that a little?

Nancy: I don't have any specific plans, like specific, two o'clock the alarm is going to go off kind of plans, but I would like to get back into that part of what the mindfulness hacks that I did. Part of the reason I got away from them was because of COVID cause I'm home all the time, but a lot of the mindfulness hacks were built on.

And when it got into the car, when I hit a stoplight, when I got out of the car, when I got into my office, when I was at the grocery store. So I would be practicing these ways to get into my body and be more mindful out in the world. And so now that I'm home all the time, I lost those. And so that was a goal to figure out what are the cues I'm going to use to bring those back in.

So anytime I come into my office or, and when I go downstairs to get a glass of water, as I'm waiting for the water to come. Do some mindfulness figuring out what those are. The other thing that was interesting is I have had a rule around yeah. Rules, big fan rule around when I'm walking the dog. I cannot listen to anything.

I have to just be walking the dog. And then this past week I started listening to the daily podcasts and it has been so nice. But to get out of my head and to be hearing something that's going out in the world and it's not about my work. It's just something that I'm interested in because the news and politics really interests me.

So that's been strangely relaxing. And so then it was the recognition of this is strangely relaxing. Right now, because then I would make a new rule. I'm always going to listen to the daily every morning while I'm walking the dog new rule. And so to recognize that let's see every morning, let's check in and see maybe it would be helpful to listen to the daily.

Maybe it'd be helpful to have nothing on. Maybe it would be helpful to listen to a business podcast. And that is a new thing for me too, is to recognize, oh, I don't have to be so rigid. Cause I was like, this is my mindful time walking. The dog is my mindful time. This is when I'm really focused, but it got to the point where I was just like, so in my head it wasn't mindful time.

It was just like me. Hashing everything out while I'm walking the dog. And the daily kind of reminds me, there's a whole other world out there that isn't in my head. And that has been helpful.

Sean: Do you consider this to be this idea, to be someone who would have a cop-out that you can find rigidity and you can create a rule in that your morning walk, you will never impose one thing.

The rules. I will never know what I'm going to do on that walk until I set out the morning of the walk. Is that like a, do you consider that to be like a cop-out or is that like a re, could that be like a real rule that you could impose?

Nancy: That could be it, because when you said that, I was like, Ooh, that's a good rule. (laughter)

I got a little excited Ooh, there's a new rule.

Sean: If you were to bring in some openness and expansiveness in the rules and it still creates some of the elements that really entertain you and bring you comfort. Cause rules bring you comfort, but yet allow for some breathing room in there.

Nancy:

Yeah. I think that would be awesome. My husband has been so instrumental in changing that. And changing the rules. I have come a long way in my rules. And rigidities, if you can believe it, because he will frequently point out to me, there's no right way here. There's no right way. And every time he does it, I'm like media.

It's like a mind blowing experience to recognize, oh yeah, there is no right way. Cause I get so stuck in the rule and the more anxious I get. The more rigid my rules get the more anxious I get. Like it becomes a loop. Like I have anxiety, I build a lot of rules. And then with the rules comes a lot of Monger and a lot of BFF activity because that's constantly of, you should follow the rules.

You should break the rules. We should follow the rules should break the rule. So the, my anxiety. And then it just keeps circling around and around. And so when he can come in and say, there is no right way, I can breaks that cycle.

Sean: So as you're talking a thought occurs to me this way that there are, there's a right way in a wrong way to do it.

And there's the way that everyone else seems to do this, but it doesn't work for some reason for you. And then. It seems like it's a challenge to go into the way that it seems to work for everybody else and to try and find your place within it. And that struggle of that feeling of being broken because you don't fit into the way things.

What comes to my mind is I've been talking to some other people about neurodiversity and there is some extreme number, more obvious pronounced examples of neurodiversity. When you're talking about somebody on a spectrum or, and, I believe really strongly that, and don't get me wrong.

I'm not saying you have a disability.

Nancy: I hear you.

Sean: But that I remember reading somewhere once where physical disability is largely based upon the physical environment that we're in. So like with legislation that makes it so that all public spaces have to be handicapped accessible while the disability actually starts going away.

When you create spaces that are accessible, it's really the design of our space that creates. Disability or not actually what the person is going through physically. And a lot of people say the same thing about neurodiversity, where if you have a kid in school who has like really like sensory overload, certain sounds or lights or things if you create spaces where those things don't exist, the disability actually starts going away.

One of the things I know about our society is that we have a tendency to try to make everyone be like everybody else. And so going into this conversation about meditation is just I'm broken because it didn't work for me on on does this resonate with you at all? This is like, When we talk about neuro-diversity, there's a lot of less pronounced versions of this diversity.

I have it, I can't stand this people eating food, and I have to get up and leave the room, whatever. And there are for whom closing their eyes is just anguish. Now, like with more pronounced versions of this of this diversity, I wonder if it's a matter of finding. Not the way you need to conform yourself to fit, but the way that you can find what you need and make your own place in this.

Nancy: Yeah. I think I totally agree with you. I think that is fascinating. The fascinating idea, stop trying to fit your round peg into a square hole, which is one of my favorite visualization, things to think of. I still am like a better person can close the eyes. Yeah. And if I worked hard enough and figured out enough hacks and tried, I could be a normal person too.

Sean: I think what, yeah. And I understand definitely what you're saying, and I know that it's cliche, but it's like, what is normal?

Nancy: Totally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's easier. It's easier said than done. Easier said than done. And it's definitely, I think every day I say to one of my clients, stop trying to fit your square peg into a round hole.

Like it's one of my favorite phrases because, cause I think I need to hear it, but it's so different when it's, when you have been programmed and we all have been to some degree, you have to be. A square peg, you have to fit into the square hole. Even though there are oval holes and round holes and star holes, like there's a lot of different holes out there, but the, I would call it brainwashing, the brainwashing you receive.

And it was given to me as a good thing. Here's a way to, to fit in. Here's a way to, to survive without conflict in the world. But even with that, even though the messaging was from an, a positive intent, the messaging I got was because you're broken and you won't fit in just being you. And so you have to figure out ways to do it differently.

And the interesting thing, as we're talking, I just was realizing because meditation is one of those things. Like it is morphed in my brain. How much of an issue it is for me? Like how, I've amplified it to be, I don't to meditate is the same as saying, I don't like to eat chocolate.

It's just who are you then if you don't like to eat chocolate. But even though I know there are a lot of people out there that don't like deep chocolate. Relate to that at all, but it doesn't mean it's wrong, but it's that same, everybody likes chocolate. What is wrong with you? That you can't do it.

And so recognizing I've amplified it to be this big thing. And it's really just when you said that about Sable to start to close their eyes, I'm like, yeah, that's all it is. I like to close my eyes. It's not some, I'm a failure at meditating. It's I just don't really. Because of my eyes and it makes me feel too out of control.

Sean: And I love also this, like going back to the beginnings and looking towards what were the actual goals all along well success. And that, if it seems to me like the experiment has been a success, because you've been able to identify, there was this thing that you wanted, it's been weighing upon you, you gave it the college try or whatever, and. You found that one tool meditation with your eyes closed, isn't the right tool for you. Maybe someday. It might be again, who knows? Maybe not that's okay. But there are all, but now it's just wait a second. There's these mindfulness techniques that I love and they work and you felt those results.

And so now you actually get to move forward with a little less baggage, actually.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And not even knowing that all that baggage was there, like that was the interesting thing too, is also to recognize like how many people who are listening have something like this. This is oh, if I was a better person, I could blah.

And instead of having the kindness to be like, What's the end goal here. The end goal is to feel for meditation is to feel more grounded and more in the present and less spinning out in my brain and the mindfulness hacks get me there. And I do them, like both are true, whereas the meditation also could get me there, but it's something I, I dread doing.

It stirs up a lot of crap for me. So instead of being like, I got to power through that and get to the other side, which is always been. Default power through, get to the other side, instead of doing that, to recognize what if there's another way of doing this, that gets you to the same goal and it doesn't cause any problems.

In the meantime, like I almost act as if by doing the mindfulness hacks where little babies are dying, because the same meditation, the right way. That's how. Big, it gets in my brain as if I'm affecting other people's lives, because I'm not able to do meditation by closing my eyes. And even that was really helpful just to recognize when you said that about the diversity to recognize, oh, it's the closing the eyes.

You're like, that's the main problem is it's really the closing. The eyes is the main problem.

Sean: Interesting,

Nancy: fascinating on the neuro-diversity thing. Cause that never entered my brain.

Sean: Nancy that you wanted to say to the listeners? Like any sort of advice about how you would suggest would you suggest people do an experiment like this?

Nancy: The beauty of the experiment was that it forced me. To come to a reckoning with a lot of this stuff that I did not realize was there. And so for that reason, I would encourage people to do an experiment because something might come up that they don't know that it's there. And if they don't want to do an experiment, what I would encourage them to do is to have some curiosity around when they do practice mindfulness or meditation, how that feels and what comes up for them and to be able to have that practice.

Without all the judgment and rigidities if possible, which I know is a lot to ask, but bottom line, I would encourage people, whether you're doing meditation or mindfulness, opening your eyes, closing your eyes, dancing in the street. I don't care. You have to have some type of practice. That brings you into the moment that gets you in your body.

That cuts out the nonstop chatter in our brains. And I think people need to have some curiosity around what that practice is for them. And I'll happily in the podcast notes include some yeah. Mindfulness hack examples that I have used in the past to give to people. And I think I even have podcast episodes where I talk about it to give people some other ways of doing that.

Because as I've said, a thousand times, acknowledging your feelings and slowing down and getting to your body are the two things that are the most important in dealing with anxiety and are the two things that. Want to do the least. I was really bummed when I realized those were the keys, but since I have embraced those two things, my anxiety has become so much more manageable.

Sean: Incredible. And then what I love about that answer is there's so much hope in that answer too. There's so much optimism

Nancy: cause to me now it feels more free and spacious than it did when we first had the first conversation. And I was like, this is what it has to look like. I was super. Closed in what meditation had to look like.

And so to your point on the neuro-diversity, just to recognize that we have a lot of different ways of processing stuff and a lot of things, whether it's a personal preference or a hard wired part of your brain, when you're doing practices like this, you want to be doing them where they are enjoyable.

So let's pay attention to those practices or those personal preferences. Neural pathways rather than beating ourselves up for them. If it's not explainable, it's still okay. To cut out the judgment on this is mindfulness. This isn't mindfulness. Yeah. Instead of just being like this makes me feel bad.

This makes me feel more grounded. This makes me feel more connected to myself. This makes me cut out the noise.

Sean: And I'm going to do this regularly and on purpose.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yes. I'm glad you said that. Cause I do think when you can train it to be, this is something I'm doing for myself. This is a gift I'm giving myself that flips.

From external locus of control, internal locus of control. I'm not doing this because Nancy Jane Smith and Sean McMullan said that meditation and mindfulness are the key. I'm doing this because I have done it. And I know it helps me feel better. That's why I'm doing it. And that's the key. That's awesome.

Thanks for challenging me to do this, Sean. Cause I would probably would not have done this. Had you not held my feet to the fire a little bit about it. That's been my pleasure. Okay, Shawn, thanks so much for joining me on this conversation. This was really fun. I hope you get as much out of this experiment as I did at the bare minimum, I hope it encourages you to give it a try, whether it be meditation or mindfulness.

I know quieting our minds and getting into our bodies is a powerful practice.

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Episode 160: Successfully Navigating Decision Fatigue, COVID, and the Holidays

In this episode, I talk with Michelle Florendo, Decision Engineer and Coach about making the holiday decision-making process as easy as possible (or at least a little bit easier).

As if navigating the holidays wasn’t already hard enough, 2020 has turned our holiday traditions on their head. 

In my family, we’re making some tough decisions about the holidays, and emotions are running high. We’ve already canceled our traditional Thanksgiving trip to Chicago to visit my aunt, uncle, and cousins—and it looks like we’ll need to reimagine our Christmas as well, which has been pretty much the same my whole life. 

Making decisions this year has been hard. I’m sure you feel it, too. Do we have a holiday celebration with family? Do we travel? Do we stay home and have a virtual get-together? Do we need to change how we do things at all? It’s tough and the decision fatigue is real. 

In a quest to make the holiday decision-making process as easy as possible (or at least a little bit easier), I wanted to talk with Decision Engineer and Coach, Michelle Florendo. 

Michelle specializes in helping people untangle messy decisions in life and work. After studying decision engineering at Stanford University, she spent the past 15 years helping hundreds of professionals use the principles of decision engineering to make decisions with less stress and more clarity.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How we make decisions

• How decision fatigue is a thing more than ever this year and how to deal with it to make life a little easier

• Tips on dealing with all the emotions that come up around COVID and the holidays

• Ways to navigate the constantly changing information we’re getting around COVID

• Why it’s important to honor the feelings that keep coming up and treating them as data

Resources mentioned:

• Michelleflorendo.com

• Book: Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

• Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn

• Follow Michelle on Instagram

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Michelle: I think that the pandemic has definitely produced decision fatigue for a number of different reasons. One, because it's created so many more decisions that we feel like we need to really think through, but also it's taken away some of our. Outlets, like you said that help us build back our capacity.

That help us refuel.

Nancy: Singing “It's the holiday season.” Oh, a little too early. Ah, actually with the disaster that has been 2020, it isn't to early. As if navigating the holidays, wasn't hard enough. This year COVID has turned our holidays on their heads with the recent uptick in COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

This year, we are going to be making some tough decisions about the holidays and emotions are running high. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

I know in our family, we've already canceled our traditional Thanksgiving trip to Chicago to visit my aunt and uncle and cousins. And it looks like we're going to be, re-imagined getting our Christmas as well, which has stayed the same for most of my life. So in a quest to make the holiday decision-making process, as easy as possible, I learned at the talk with the decision engineer and coach Michelle Florenda.

Michelle breaks it down for us. So keep listening to hear how we actually make decisions. How decision fatigue is a thing this year, more than ever, and how to deal with it. The steps for making decisions and tips on dealing with all the emotions that come up around COVID and the holidays, how to deal with the constantly changing information we're getting around COVID and ways to reduce decision fatigue and make life a little easier.

Michelle Florenda is here to talk to us about decision-making. And I think before we started talking, I meant to write it down. You talked about how there was an engineering of efficiency. That just makes my little high functioning anxiety, heart go. Pitter-patter pitter-patter so tell me, Michelle, how did you get involved in The science of decision-making.

Michelle: So it was one of those things that I just stumbled on. Actually, I'm thinking about how far back I should go for this story. I might just start at the beginning. So when I grew up, all I wanted to be was a teacher. To be honest in the first grade, I wanted to be a first grade teacher, second grade.

I wanted to be a second grade teacher. And so on until I had a teacher who was really fantastic, but she heard me say this and she told me it would be a waste of my brain. And then I went home and cried. I think now. Understanding a little bit more about how we don't compensate our teachers enough. I think I know where that sentiment was coming from.

She was a young teacher, but she was excellent, but not getting paid her worth. But I remember at that moment I went home. I cried. I thought, what am I going to do if I'm not going to be a teacher? And I was good at math and science. And so I decided I'm going to be an editor. Yeah again, like back in the day, I didn't know of all the different options.

So I did some research and I was learning about all the different engineering disciplines. And I heard about industrial engineering, which someone told me was the engineering of efficiency, which totally. It made me get really excited because I thought that was really neat and fascinating. And then once I got into school, I studied at Stanford and they had reconfigured their industrial engineering department to merge with a few other departments.

And I found out that one of the options that I could choose to study was decision engine. Which I thought was fascinating. Wow, I can optimize decisions. How come we've never been taught this before. So that's how I landed in the decision making space.

Nancy: This is awesome. Okay. So we're getting ready for Thanksgiving and the holidays and all signs point towards COVID is still here.

It's still here and growing. Yeah. Coming down the pike is decisions about holidays, which is why I wanted you to be here to talk us through how to make a decision about the holidays. But before we get into that, I want to talk about decision fatigue. And I think a lot of us are experiencing that with COVID and 2020 in general, it's just been a really tough year.

But I know decision fatigue happens well beyond. Just this year. So tell me about decision fatigue. What is it, why is it happening?

Michelle: So I find it useful to break down. What's actually happening in our brains because sometimes people will reach out and say, is it just me or is my brain no longer working for some shape or reason?

And it's not just, it's not just them. It's not just you, not just me to

Nancy: That’s good to know just there is good to know.

Michelle: What happens is that so I'm going to draw a little bit on the work of Daniel Kahneman and his book thinking fast and slow. And so one of the key concepts from his book is that we have these two systems of thinking, thinking fast is the intuitive, super fast, sometimes emotional almost reactionary brain or a part of our brain.

Some people call it the lizard brain, but it operates. Quickly. And then there's the thinking slow. This is the it, our prefrontal cortex, our executive function, where we are analyzing things with logic and weighing all of the outcomes. That's our thinking slow part of the brain. He calls them system one system two.

I'll just call them thinking fast, thinking slow. Okay. For shorthand. And the thing is there's a lot of psychological research that's been done that shows. The capacity we have for that slow thinking is finite. So we only have a finite reservoir of energy to use with these slow thinking decisions. And that's why, if you have to do many hours of logical analytical thinking by the end of it, your brain feels a little bit fried.

And so what I seen, especially this year is a few things. So one especially in the midst of the pandemic, there are a lot of decisions that used to be just everyday decisions like, oh, do I go see my parents so that they can see their grandkids? Or do I get on a plane? Do I go to the grocery store?

Especially like really early on all of these normally mundane decisions become a little more high stakes. Because of the possible health implications. And so I'm seeing a lot more people taking those decisions and putting them in the, oh, I must think slope about it. And so now we have more decisions that we are trying to use our slow thinking around.

And then also, because there's still a bit of uncertainty because our human brains don't like. Uncertainty. We think that we, oh we really need to be sure. I need to think even harder about these decisions to make sure I make the right decision. And so what we're seeing is almost like an overload of our slow thinking part of our brain.

And that's where the decision fatigue comes from. If you think about it being almost like a fuel tank, but we're running on it.

Nancy: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And then, because there isn't really any certainty, like certainty cannot be found in the sense of there's so many conflicting messages coming at us and different parts of the country have different experiences with COVID.

It's hard to find the guidance to have certainty. Is that's is that what you're meaning by certainty? Is that upping the ante even more?

Michelle: Yes. When I think about certainty and our need for certainty, there's a couple of different things. One it's harder to come by certainty for all of the reasons that you just mentioned that the data that's out there it differs by geographical location.

Also differs every day, after. Big holidays in the summer, we saw spikes. And the data that was valid two weeks ago may not be the same as the data we have now. So there's this ever-changing dynamic aspect of information that is producing some uncertainty, but also there's the piece around I was actually talking to Barry Schwartz.

Who's the author of the paradox of choice a couple months ago about this. And he said, I think another thing that people don't realize is that. Our tolerance for uncertainty has also diminished over time, not even just this year, but as a society. And so if you think about the way that technology has been able to, give us instant answers, if we can Google things, we don't have to wait or Netflix, we don't have to wait an entire week to figure out what happened after that cliffhanger of an episode.

Technology has actually reduced our tolerance for uncertainty over time as has our societal I guess hunger for certainty. Like I think in, at least in the U S there is a bias towards, you must know, and we must know it's certainty

Nancy: and it must not change. It must stay the course, because if it changes, that means it's uncertain.

Yeah. That's interesting. Because I can Google right away. What's the capital of Florida, rather than having to not know, because I just don't know. Then I'm less comfortable with uncertainty because I get it instantaneously now. Okay.

Michelle: So there's this bias towards knowing and knowing instantaneously has hindered our capacity to just be with the not knowing.

Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. Because something we get really caught up in is a little bit of certainty, but it's more so the right, this is the right way. And I know it's the right way because I can get enough information to feed that I know it's the right way because I'm following what everyone else is doing.

So it's not so much certainty, but it's a form of that. And so what is so hard right now is there is no right way. So everyone has a different opinion. I can talk to five different family members and they all feel very differently about COVID. If it's from, it's not real to, oh my gosh, we shouldn't be even going to the grocery store.

And so finding that level of right is hard right. And taking in the information and being able to figure out what's accurate is hard. Even more so now, because as you said, I hadn't even thought about that. Just the amount of decisions we've had to make using the slow brain and all this stuff we take for granted is gone, childcare and schooling, and it's all freaking out the window. And this has nothing to do with decision-making, but also being able to be in the car, on your drive, home from work and listen to the radio, getting those regular outlets where your brain can just. Not beyond that isn't happening either.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the pandemic has definitely produced decision fatigue for a number of different reasons. One, because it's created so many more decisions that we feel like we need to really think through, but also it's taken away some of our. Outlets, like you said that help us build back our capacity, help us refuel.

Nancy: So here we are right before the holidays, it's coming down. What are we going to do? We've canceled our holiday plans already. And even our plan B is under. Question, how do we start this process of making these really tough decisions about the holidays?

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I remember. I feel like I've had a lot of conversations with people about how is it that you make decisions?

Not only in the pandemic, but in, in general. So I want to start at a very basic level because I think it's very useful for people to think about decisions in this way. And that's every decision. Has three parts. There are three components that this is like the same thing that professor Ron Howard would teach at Stanford.

So every single decision has three parts. One is what are the objectives? What are the things that matter in the outcome? The second component of any decision is what are your options? What are the different courses or paths that you can choose a mountain? And then the third piece of any decision is what information do you have?

On how each of those options might deliver against your objectives. And then also in the information piece is, what information do you not have? Is there anything you can necessarily do with about that? And as people are making decisions, especially about the holidays, it's useful to start actually with what the objectives are.

I think sometimes it can get. Really easy to assume certain objectives that matter just, according to society. And so I think health being able to preserve one's own health and the health of their loved ones tends to be an objective. Not being responsible for spreading the virus also tends to be an objective, but it is also useful to identify what are the other objectives at play because when we only focus on.

Those two things, the health things, we may forget that there are other things that might be impacted by our decision. Earlier on in the pandemic, I was talking to a number of parents about decision-making and on one hand, They realized that, trying to manage the risk of getting COVID, at least for them had a negative impact on other objectives.

They had okay, the decisions around childcare, have negative implications for how they could advance in their career or even just their own mental health or their relationship with their spouse. So it's good to articulate at least what are the things that matter? Even beyond the obvious

Nancy: to be able to do that without self-editing in the sense of being able to say, this is going to hurt my career by doing this.

And that's an objective. And I think a lot of people jump in and be like then you're being selfish and you're all about your career. And they have all this shame and criticism about that. When in reality, that is playing. So let's throw it on the table as an objective. I've talked with my mom multiple times, so she's 79 and in great health, but we've talked about quality of life versus being locked down and how she can manage that because it's hard.

So being able to be honest about what those objectives are, even if they're not socially. Acceptable or sound good, but they're on the table. And I think that is one thing to recognize is how much we do tend to edit ourselves based on what we think other people will think. And this is a time when we need to just be really honest with ourselves and the people that we're making the decision with,

Michelle: Because it's by articulating what the objectives are that you can then. Really start brainstorming what might be some of the viable options that we can help deliver against. And, none of these objectives are necessarily binary. Like it's all, or nothing, usually a spectrum along which like you mentioned quality of life.

And yeah. That happening in our family too. My father-in-law really loves being able to pick his own produce at the grocery store. And at the beginning of the pandemic, we were all delivery all. Let's try to stay out of the public spaces, but in tracking the information and just noticing the impact on his quality of life.

We're re-evaluating okay. Are there ways. Are there certain grocery stores, like open air markets from markets, whatever, where he might be able to do that, but still in a way that seems safe enough for what we're trying to manage.

Nancy: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. How can you brainstorm all the possible options?

Michelle: I think here's where I see a lot of people just start with the obvious but once you are able to pinpoint well, okay, given the options that are in front of us and how we're looking at our various objectives, where are some of our objectives not being met as much as maybe we would.

It's almost like feeling around the edges of this decision problem and then trying to see are there creative things that we can brainstorm like this being able to pick this up,

Nancy: Yeah. That's a great example of it.

Michelle: So exploring additional options should be driven by, what are the objectives that we're still trying to move the needle on.

And again, like when it comes to objectives, it's useful to think about them as a spectrum because. By thinking about them, not in an all or nothing, but as a spectrum, we can also define what is the range within which feels comfortable? I think about it almost like a mixer I'm thinking like audio levels and the mixer.

Yeah. Push up the base the whole time, the trouble, or what does it look like with the different pattern? Being able to see what's in front of you, like the obvious options and how well are they delivering against objectives now, and then seeing where you can push the edges a little bit.

And that's where you can direct your brainstorming.

Nancy: Okay. And then is this something you would recommend? My husband and I do this, and then we take it out to the. Family or we should be doing it as the larger family to begin with.

Michelle: So for decisions that impact a number of different people, or, especially if I'm family decisions, who's going to be feeling strong feelings about things it's useful to identify.

What are the objectives that each person involved has, or at least like the really high priority ones, because then you can also identify with. Overlap. And so when we were making decisions in our family and as I was consulting, some other people would identify, okay, where are people aligned on objectives?

Okay. We don't want to get sick. We don't want to get our loved ones sick. We don't want to be vectors for this disease. Okay. Can we all agree? Yes. Great then that could be used as a foundation for almost negotiating or playing with what are the other things that matter? What are the trade offs that we're willing to make given the things that we have in common?

Okay. And so the objectives piece useful to do for the bigger group, or at least get an understanding. You may not necessarily interview everyone. You can usually just from past conversations, what are the things I've come up and. Yes, it's full to brainstorm options in a smaller group and then bring them to bounce them off of others.

Nancy: Cause then it would just get out of control the brainstorming piece. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then when you move to the third piece about the information. Tell me about that.

Michelle: Yeah. So the information piece is the place where things get sticky, right? For all the reasons we talked about before, around discomfort with uncertainty and things being dynamic.

And so this is where it's useful. Not only to think about what information do I have, but also how might I, de-risk this decision in the face of uncertainty? So I framed that because in full disclosure, I'm a risk averse person. I'm willing to take calculated risks. And that's where this idea of de-risking or at least thinking about ways you can, de-risk a decision come in.

And for example, recognizing that there might be an additional decision. When you have more information. And so like for travel planning, let's say that you're making all of these decisions based on the data that you have now, but you can also establish a trip. And so for example, if the data changes significantly between now, and when you plan to take that trip, how can you build in mechanisms so that you have the opportunity to make a new decision?

If you have very different information, let's say two weeks down the line that would impact that decision for people who fly thinking about. Okay. Yeah. How can I turn this into something that I may not be locked into? Or how can I maintain the opportunity to make a new decision if I do get new data?

Yeah.

Nancy: I love that. That's a great, that takes out some of the pressure that we need to figure this out right now.

Michelle: And what we decide now decides everything forever.

Nancy: Yes. I like the idea of the tripwire. This is what we're doing until this happens. And then we're going to reassess and go to plan B or. Great.

And then do you have B and C already planned or do you go back through the process of the objectives, options information?

Michelle: So I'm thinking specifically for holiday decisions, as opposed to what do you want to do next in your career? My sense is that the objective. Are you pretty consistent or probably stay consistent through this holiday season.

And so you may not need to revisit that for the options piece sometimes who knows new options might arise or someone in the group thought of a new idea. So maybe, and so you don't have to completely rehab. But I think it is useful at least for people who are planners, which

Nancy: raising my hand here Yeah, for sure.

Michelle: There can be a level of comfort in at least exploring if you're going to set a point in time that could be a tripwire. It could establish some comfort in at least thinking through what might be different courses of action. Okay.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. And you may not have a tip for this.

It is emotionally a landmine tips for navigating that.

Michelle: What are we talking about? Emotional landmine for ourselves, or also the emotions that go on everyone.

Nancy: Like a lot of my listeners are people pleasers and they want to make everyone happy. How do you navigate. That you might piss off your uncle by saying we're not coming.

Michelle: Yeah. So there's a couple things that come to mind one.

Okay. I'm laughing because I'm totally having a flashback to when I was planning my wedding and asking friends about their advice in wedding planning. And I just remember one of the best pieces of advice I got was. You're going to piss off everyone you love at least once. So when it happens, just check the box and move on.

Nancy: That is awesome. Oh my gosh. That's so true.

Michelle: At least that's a way of managing expectations because I think it's, we forget that it's impossible to please everyone. And I do think, especially when it comes to. Multifaceted decisions with multiple people involved. There are going to be people who are not completely happy with how things turn out or even the decision that was made.

And so I think there is, like a grain of truth to that piece of advice. It's very likely we're going to piss off everyone. And so when it happens, especially if we're talking about family and over the course of our lifetimes, which brings me to the second thing that comes to mind, and it's the idea of infinite versus finite games.

And so with our family, Oftentimes we're in an infinite game with them where I don't like characterizing it as game, but basically it's, we are going to have multiple interactions over time, often over a long period of time with our family. And so what we do at this one point in time, May not make or break things for eternity, versus if we were only playing one game, this party and everything was on the line at this one point in time, which I find isn't necessarily the case with families because we have such history with them going far back before this point in time.

And we likely are going to have more experiences with them. Yeah. After this point in time. This one piece of tile, just like a quote around things always seem to matter most in the moment when we're experiencing them. And yes, it feels that way. But if people can take a step back and realize in this context that this is one holiday season over how many we've had and how many more we hope to have.

Nancy: Yeah, because I keep reminding myself of that. This is one holiday season, this isn't the end of the world. Even though I know there are people out there that their parents are getting older or relatives, they don't know how many more holiday seasons they're going to have, but then that would go back to the objective.

Of recognizing, okay. One of the objectives is we want to celebrate the holiday with this person because we don't know how much longer they're going to be here. And that's an honest objective. So then we come up with an option that fits the rest of the objectives and that we want to be safe, et cetera, et cetera.

So we got to come up with a different option. Right or that I know I get so caught by the emotions and I don't have set my mom and I don't want to be seen as a wimp by my brother. Like I have all these dynamics, but this system you laid out, even the emotions are playing. It does give a way to objectively move through all this stuff.

Michelle: Because one of the things that I like to talk about is the fact that. Especially as humans. There's no such thing as just a slow thinking. Absence of all emotion, drive of decision for humans, we have emotions just like you said. So when emotions come up, it's useful to observe what is the emotion that is coming up?

Where's it coming from? And what can that tell me about this decision? Because sometimes the emotion is coming up because it's informing us of an objective that matters sometimes just the anxiety over the not knowing maybe it's coming up because oh, The information space, isn't completely clear and likely isn't going to be, but that's where the is coming from.

And so at least I advocate for people leaning into the emotion of it, at least enough to understand how could it be used as data.

Nancy: Ah, I love that, that I'm going to use that one just in general. I think emotions can provide a lot of them.

Michelle: If we're willing to observe with them and in that way, in a way that allows us to treat them as data.

Yeah.

Nancy: That's really helpful because it isn't so much about pulling out the emotion from the decision. It is. Let me welcome the emotion in a way that I'm a neutral observer to it and reading it.

Michelle: I'm based in the bay area. So two or three months into the lockdown or shelter in place that we had here, my mom had a very emotional reaction to the plans.

We were putting forth for our quarantine pod and she had made a remark and it's very teary-eyed around. This is not a way to. And I remember having a really emotional reaction and almost wanting to make a completely different decision because yeah, I care about my mom. I could see that she was really emotional and then I took a step back to ask of myself.

Okay. Given what I'm seeing in my mom what is both her emotion and my emotional reaction. Say about what's happening here. And I realized, oh, okay. Her emotional reaction is coming from a piece around one of the objectives she has and feels very strongly about is not being. And my emotion is coming up because I love my mom.

Yeah. All right. So she has an objective that isn't being met. Are there ways that we can think more creatively again about, can we revisit the options piece to see? Is there a slightly different tweak that we can make to our plans so that her objective is at least a little bit met? I think she was also thinking about this decision as the decision for the rest of time and yes.

Yes. Huh. It's not a way to live for, five, six years. Then we started talking, we were going to revisit the plan every month. So at least we're not trying to chase all the data from a day-to-day basis, but we are still trying to reevaluate as the data and as the situation evolves. And that, that also helped her wrap her head around.

Okay, I can do this for a month. And we'll talk again.

Nancy: And that would be like the trip wire. And so for example, if you have someone in your family who isn't as militant as you might be about the COVID protocols, Then that's the data in making your decision. You're just taking that in to recognize this person isn't going to be as on it.

And so I need to make sure I am aware of that as I'm moving through this. Okay. And that also takes out the emotion and the judgment of that person. Yes. Yeah. But that's just no, this is just data. We're just figuring this out. Okay. That's helpful because everyone has different. Rules and different capacities for what they're willing to do.

It can be overwhelming and trying to make everyone happy. And being able to pull back and recognize what's a feeling what's just information I need to use forward. And then how can we come up with options that can keep all of those in place somehow? Am I on it? Yeah. Okay.

All right. Cause it does just give us a new way of thinking about it and then also just the compassion for ourselves as to why this is so freaking hard.

Michelle Yes, There's a lot of things that are going on. It's like this year has produced a perfect storm of a lot of external influences along with like society and technology and all of these things that have made decision fatigue hit us in a way that is just so significant.

Nancy: So do you have any tips for reducing decision fatigue?

Michelle: Yes. If you think about it, decision fatigue, as I mentioned is a function of our reservoir of energy for these, the slow analytical thinking, being depleted. I talked to a lot of working parents and sometimes their reservoir is even smaller than it usually is just because.

They're not sleeping as much, or they don't have the outlets that they usually do. And so the recommendation to try to expand the capacity side of things is not for working parents because there's only so much that, right? Yes. Yeah. For people who may have the ability to. Put more attention into, what are those outlets that help you rebuild your reservoir, that help you replenish your energy to make these decisions again, like refueling the tank.

But I think a lot of my suggestions lie on the other side of things. Okay. So how is it that you manage the influx of decisions that. Are demanding attention from our slow thinking brain. And so one of the things that I recommend is thinking about how can you just either turn things into a non-decision or get it off?

Okay. And so what I mean by that is can you decide things in advance? Can you create a menu for the month or a few menus, weekly menus that you rotate through so that there are certain decisions that you have to come up, but you don't need to dedicate as much energy because you've decided in advance how you're going to deal with it.

So that's one decided advance another way of getting things off your bucket. Can you delegate, are there other people that you can delegate the little decisions too? And so I think that's also another distinction. There are going to be some decisions that you do want to reserve for your slow thinking brain that you want to use that tank a fuel for.

And then there are some. Don't like, what am I going to eat? What am I going to wear? So there's the, can you just not. Have them be decisions that you need to make, decide in advance or delegate. And then another thing to think about is sequencing. Our reservoir gets depleted over time, or maybe over the course of a day.

And so can you sequence some of these decisions so that you are safe? Your energy for the things that you really do want to use that slow thinking on for the beginning, when you absolutely know that you'll still have fuel in the tank instead of leaving them for when you might be running on fumes.

Nancy: That makes sense.

Michelle: Things that you may need to use your slow thinking brain for. Can you manage how much energy it takes. And so this is where I'm thinking about holidays and deciding what am I going to get whole bunch of my family members. And I can totally anticipate myself in the wee hours of the night after my baby's gone to sleep going down the road.

Oh, should I get this scarf or should it be a hundred percent wool or should it be recycled wool plus polyester? Or should it be wrecked? I plan to time box some of these decisions. What I mean by time boxing is decide in advance how much time. And I am I going to give myself to spend on this particular decision at the end of it?

Good to be done. So that's one way of managing how much time you're spending on these slow thinking decisions. Sometimes when I talk about the time boxing thing, I'm going to spend 30 minutes thinking about this decision by the end, I'm just going to make a decision. Sometimes I get pushback because people want to make the best decision or the right decision.

And there is something that I want to say about that piece because. Oftentimes, we want to make the right decision. But we don't stop to think about what actually makes this decision right? Or good. And this is where sometimes people fall victim to a very common fallacy when it comes to decision quality.

And they think that the quality of the decision is the same as the quality of the outcome. Or in other words, if the outcome of the decision is good, I must've made a good decision, but if the outcome is bad, I must've made a bad decision. Yes. But that's not actually true. Because the outcome is a function, not just of what we decide, but also often of other things that are outside of our control.

And so like really simple example, this upcoming weekend, I looked at a weather report and it's supposed to be no rain or maybe very slight chance of right. And so what if our family decides to go on a hike and let's say fast forward to the weekend and we go on this hike and it does rain. What's that necessarily a bad decision.

Not necessarily, I didn't decide for it to rain, but oftentimes we wear that baggage of that outcome. I must've made a bad decision. And so I say all that to try to remind people that we can only make the best decision we can. Given the information that we have.

Nancy: Ah, thank you for that. That was gold right there.

Oh, it's a great reminder. Like we all know that, but the reminder of that is so great.

Michelle: I was just thinking about the holiday gift thing and wanting to make the best decision and sometimes. And sometimes it's useful to ask one, how would I know if it's really the best decision and also is that incremental difference over what would be good enough really worth the extra time, effort and fatigue, all of these things.

And sometimes. That's the mindset that can help shake us out of wanting to just like optimize, because there often is no. So this is the thing, even though I studied decision engineering, which is supposed to be the discipline of how to make or optimize decisions, the one thing that I've realized when it comes to human decision making is that there's very rarely an optimum.

Decision. And so at the end of the day, sometimes I tell clients the best decision is going to be the one that you are happiest living with

Nancy:. Yes, that is well said. And so on that note, because that was just brilliant. I think this was so helpful and just a really new way of reframing. Stuff. So thank you for coming on and be the guest and helping us through this COVID holiday time.

Michelle: Absolutely. I love talking about decision making and helping untangle messy decisions.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I learned so much from Michelle and she made what feels like an overwhelming process, much more manageable. My takeaways were to be honest with myself and to be clear on my objection. To think outside the box and be creative to honor the feelings that keep coming up and treating them as data.

And most importantly, to practice kindness to myself and to my loved ones

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Episode 159: A Weekend in the Life of High Functioning Anxiety

In this episode, I recorded the times when my anxiety was exceptionally high this past weekend. My goal was to share what was happening—and how I felt about it—to give a behind-the-scenes look at how HFA plays out in your life and what to do about it.

For many of us with High Functioning Anxiety, we have a hard time noticing when we are anxious. Our anxiety is usually swimming around in our heads WELL before we consciously notice it. 

For me, I can say I’m fine, I’m not feeling anxious then poof—I explode at my husband for leaving something out of place and realize how high my anxiety is and I didn’t even realize it. In a similar vein, my clients tell me their HFA shows up when they can’t sleep at night because of their racing thoughts.

The truth is: we all have default patterns we fall into.

Many of us have “go-to” behaviors to express our anxiety that we either inherited genetically or that we learned from a young age: behaviors we engage in and beliefs that we get stuck on. Some of these patterns might be overeating, overthinking, people-pleasing, insomnia, over-analyzing, or assuming you are wrong.

HFA is sneaky—and it shows up in the most strange and uncomfortable ways. To illustrate, I decided to record the times when my anxiety was exceptionally high this past weekend. My goal was to share what was happening—and how I felt about it—so you could get a behind-the-scenes look at how HFA plays out in your life and what to do about it.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The 6 situations that triggered my high functioning anxiety and my response to them

• Healthier ways to approach your HFA—and why practicing A.S.K. to quiet your Monger is important (listen to this episode to learn all about the 3 steps of A.S.K.)

• What a wrestling match between your Monger and BFF can look like

• How many of my default patterns tie back to messages I swallowed as a kid

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Coping with stress and anxiety is different. When you have high functioning anxiety is sneaky. It shows up in the most strange and uncomfortable ways to illustrate what I mean this past weekend, I decided to record those times when my anxiety was exceptionally high. To share what was happening and how I was feeling.

So you could get up behind the scenes, look at how high functioning anxiety plays out and what to do about it. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed hustle and a cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

For many of us with high functioning anxiety, we have a hard time noticing when we are anxious. Our anxiety might be swimming in our heads. Before we notice it, I know I can say, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm not feeling anxious. And then poof, I will explode at my husband for leaving something out of place and realize, oh wow.

My anxiety is really high right now. And they didn't even recognize it. I hear it all the time from my clients. Who are fine all day. And then at night they can't sleep and their thoughts are racing while they're trying to relax. We all have those default patterns. We fall into our go-to behaviors for expressing our anxiety that we either inherited genetically or have been drilled into us from a young age behaviors.

We engage in beliefs. We have ideas that we get stuck on when our anxiety is high. Some of these patterns might be overeating, overthinking people, pleasing insomnia, over analyzing, or assuming. You will hear an example of most of these default patterns as I talk, the key to reducing anxiety is to notice when your default pattern is a play and then take it out.

I confess, I was hesitant to share openly this window into my anxiety because my monger tells me I'm an expert in high functioning anxiety. Therefore I should be healed, but I decided to go with my biggest fan who tells me because you're an expert in high functioning anxiety. It can't be healed, but it can be calmed.

It doesn't have to run. The key is to close the gap of when your anxiety is running the show too. When you notice that it's running the show, the longer we let our default patterns run amuck, the longer we will be living in a state of anxiety too often, we engage in the BFF versus Munger wrestling match.

This happens when our anxiety is unchecked and our monger is criticizing and belittling us and to get relief, our BFF comes in to tell us, don't worry. Everything is fine. We know our monger is wrong and we know our BFF is wrong, but we allow them to fight back and forth.

Keeping us in a state of anxiety. Closing the gap means we notice this wrestling match and then we practice ask to bring in the biggest fan practicing ask means acknowledge what is really going on, acknowledging your feelings, slowing down and getting into your body. Doing a full body movement and kindly pulling back to see the big picture.

You will hear me describe this wrestling match. In my first example, bright and early, when my monger and BFF were arguing about me getting out of bed.

So I was laying in bed this morning and going back and forth between I should get up. You should sleep in. You should sleep in. You have the morning off, keep sleeping in. No, get up, be productive, do something that's important. Don't just lay here. You should get up. And then my mind started racing to all the things I could do and all the things I should be spending my time.

Until I finally gave up and just got up, and this is a common one for me. If I wake up, I have a hardest time getting back to sleep. Cause my mom is just get up. What's your problem. Get up. You have so much to do. And my BFF is stay in bed. It's so warm. Who cares? And I just lay there, going back and forth between the two.

I just lay there, going back and forth, going back and forth until finally I'm finally. Fan steps in to be like, you're awake now. So let's get up and do something. And inevitably, I feel better when I get up. I recognize this. And sometimes I just get up and go to the bathroom and come back to bed. But this morning I actually got up, made my coffee, did the whole thing, because it's just helpful to, to bring in the biggest fan.

Anytime you can get out of that fight between the monger and the BFF and the monger and the BFF. Next step was a few hours later when I caught myself spinning about wearing a mask, a common thing for me, listen, closely to why this is a thing for me and see if you can. Okay. So I just got back from walking the dog and as I was walking the dog, which is one of my favorite things to do in the world, I noticed my anxiety was through the roof.

As I'm walking through the little college campus that is near our house. And I know they have a mask mandate at that college campus and frequent. In the rare event that I see a person walking around the college campus between 7:00 AM and 6:00 AM. I will see them wearing a mask. And I don't carry a mask when I'm walking the dog because I rarely see people.

But when I walk through the college, I freak out because I don't have my mask on. I have been avoiding it at college, even though that is one of our favorite places to walk for this reason. And so today, as I was walking through the college, I actually remembered to bring my mask and I was wearing it and I thought, oh my gosh, the amount of mental energy I have spent in obsessing.

About wearing a mask through the college campus when no one is there is amazing to me. Like it is a lot of energy that I obsess about. And so when I was thinking about it today, it was the idea of what will they think of me. I'm not following the rules. I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do. And it really triggers that little girl in me who loved following the rule.

I loved being rewarded for doing it right. Getting the right thing and doing it the best way. And following the rules, which is one reason, this COVID thing is so hard, which is a whole other story. But. This really reminded me how that is such a big part of my life. And so I realized that all I have to do is carry the mask as I'm walking wherever.

And if I run into someone, I can put the mask on and it isn't a big deal, but I will get stuck. And this is where you go back and forth between the monger and the BFF, the monger, and the BFF. I go back and forth between. The Munger being like, you gotta be a good girl and wear the mask. Like you're not following the rules.

You're going to get in trouble. Someone's going to find you. Oh my gosh. They're gonna yell at you. Do my BFF being like, don't worry about it. No, one's out. This is no big deal. Stop being such a rule follower. Come on. You need to be less. And

those two voices were going back and forth as they have, anytime I come close to that college campus with the dog.

And so today I finally was like, just bring the mask, have the mask. And if you run into someone, throw the mask on. And so I almost didn't come on here to share this one because it's so silly, but I think that's why you can hopefully relate because it's so silly. The mental energy we spend between arguing between the monger and the BFF instead of just being.

I'm just going to wear a mask. And if I'm a rule follower, I'm a rule follower. And if I don't run into anyone, I have a mask who cares. It's freeing. When you can acknowledge, what's really going on. This story is a great example of the mental energy anxiety can take up if it goes unchecked and how powerful those default messages are being the good girl and following the rules is always a tough message for me, even when it is 6:00 AM.

And there's no one around to enforce the rule. Now onto the next example, when a client didn't show. So this morning feeling a little anxious, a client didn't show for our video session, and then. Sparks my, I must've done something wrong anxiety. Like I must have handled it wrong, or I must not have sent the right link or I must have gotten the right time.

I'm always assuming I'm the one that's getting it wrong. And so my anxiety is super high stressing about that and trying to figure out how can I reach them. I reached out to them. I didn't hear anything back. So I'm sure, my biggest fan is being like it's on them. They miss the link.

Things happened. It's no big deal. I did not make the mistake, but that is always my backup. Yeah, I'm the one that made the mistake. So that is where I really try pulling back, looking at the bigger picture and seeing a different way of looking at it. And then to update this one, the client did make the mistake and they didn't get up in time.

And that's why they weren't there. And it was a super easy explanation, which is 99% of the time, how it turns out a super easy explanation. And so me having to stop that over analysis and assuming I'm getting it wrong is a powerful way for me to handle that anxiety. A common default for me is always assuming I did something wrong.

I think some of this comes from that good girl pattern I talked about with the mask, the idea that my worthiness is based on me being perfect all the time. So if something doesn't happen, it must be my fault to combat this default pattern. I have a sticky note on my computer that reads stop.

Assuming you are always wrong, which has made a huge difference in combating this default anxiety. Yeah. Next up it's lunchtime and I didn't want to take a break. This is one way high functioning anxiety commonly shows up for me. It is 1230. I have not accomplished as much this morning as my brain has told me I should, or my monger has told me I should.

So here I am and I'm hungry and it's lunchtime. So I want to power through. I want to keep going. I want to hit a place where I can feel comfortable and know that I've accomplished enough. And I know that place isn't going to come. Especially when I'm hungry, that place, isn't going to come period, which is about me recognizing this imaginary line that I think I'm going to get to.

At some point it doesn't exist. There will not be a place today where I feel yay. I checked enough things off the list, not in the mood I'm in, not with the anxiety I have running around. So my tendency, my desire. How I usually do it is to just to keep pushing and all that will leave me to do is feel more.

Stressed more anxious and less, or the, and so the, what I need to do, which is the opposite of what I want to do right now is to get up from my chair, go downstairs, eat lunch, get into my body, check in with how I'm feeling and do all that stuff that I talk about all the time that I don't want to do. So this is a prime example of how.

Intellectually knowing what you need to do versus the voice of anxiety and the voice of the monger telling me to keep pushing and pushing those things are at war right now. And so I need to take control, bring in my biggest fan, walk myself downstairs and get some nourishment. So happy. I caught this moment of anxiety because this happens all the freaking time.

And this is why I always preach about being kind to yourself and self loyalty, because without those two practices, I'd probably still be sitting at my desk trying to get to a point where I will have accomplished enough that my anxiety will be. It is more than just having a knowing stress management techniques because without self loyalty and kindness, I would never stop long enough to practice the stress management techniques.

This was always my issue with all the self care messages out there. First, you have to feel worthy enough to care for yourself. For years, I would recognize that I was stressed and I should be doing some type of self care, but because I believe the voice of my monger that said, keep going. I never implemented them.

It wasn't until I actually developed a loyal teacher, myself, that I could notice the stress and realize that I was never going to accomplish enough to quilt my anxiety. I had to get up out of the chair and change what I was doing. Oh, and a quick update. I did go downstairs and eat lunch. I did some stretches and I came back to my desk more refreshed.

It still wasn't a high productivity day for me, but I was able to accomplish stuff without beating myself up. This incident took place the next day when I had the afternoon off. Okay. So today is a common way to my anxiety plays out in. It is in the way that I think that high functioning anxiety really gets to our worthiness.

And so having a day where I have nothing planned can be very anxiety producing. And today I just had the afternoon where I had nothing planned. And so the idea of doing something that doesn't require that isn't productive, that doesn't have an end goal that doesn't get me something. And just something that I really want to do when my anxiety is high.

It's even harder to do those things. And so that idea that I have to be doing something productive and I have to be worthy and I have to be, making sure that I'm getting stuff done. And so a lot of times when my anxiety is high, I don't have the energy to fight that I don't have the energy to bring in my biggest fan consistently and really go after something that I want to do, like reading or baking or doing something that just has no meaning other than it brings me joy.

And. When I'm when my anxiety is high and I try to do one of those activities, my monger and my BFF for just hammering me and that, world wrestling Federation match between the monger and the BFF comes out. And so I try to pull it back and I'll end it. Doing nothing numbing out in front of the TV or you don't give you my brain arrest by playing video games.

And I don't know, I don't know if that's okay or if I should be doing it differently, but that's how I know when my anxiety is high. That's how I give myself a pass. And then there are times when I can go in and I can bring in my biggest fan and I can read, and I can do something that I really want to do because my anxiety.

Isn't as high that day. And so that's an ongoing thing that I can continually working on is really fighting that idea that everything I have to do has to be productive and efficient and worthy. And so this example is an example that is ongoing for me, that I'm continually fighting. I've noticed during COVID.

Doing nothing idea has been even harder for me. I'm assuming it's because of increased anxiety and I'm trying to be kind to myself as I move through this. This is my way of handling it for now. And it is something I'm aware of being attentional around, moving back and forth between being kind, giving myself the past and knowing I don't want TV and playing games on my phone to be a way of life.

So I'm challenging myself to pull out of that in little ways during my time off. Baby steps with this one, for sure. And my last example is another one of those default patterns that is on repeat. So I'm a little late in recording. This one actually happened last night, but this is a common scenario for me because I tend to fall asleep in the evenings.

I tend to fall asleep before nine. If I can make it to nine 30, it's like a big day for me. And, I get up early in the morning, but still, I wish I could stay awake longer at night and because my husband is a night out and I would like to be able to spend more time with him in the evenings and I just can't do it.

And so every night, I either fall asleep on the couch or I drag myself upstairs and my monger is just hammering me for the fact that I can't stay up, that I can't handle it. And so even though my husband has said to me, I'm care that you can't, it does not bother me that you go to bed early, but man, for some reason it is one of those messages that is stuck in my brain.

That I'm a terrible person because I can't stay awake. And so I think. That for me is there's another one of those ongoing that I'm constantly bringing in my biggest fan to remind me it doesn't matter. This isn't a big deal. The only person that's affects is your husband. And he has said it doesn't affect him.

So when we get those hardwired messages, and I think I got that probably as a little kid, that a cooler person can stay up later and I'm not a cool person, but when we get those default messages, it really keeps us stuck and that can really be challenged. I know some of my default patterns are related to messages.

I swallowed as a kid, not based in rationality, not based in any fact, but I can remember as a kid that the cooler kids always stayed up late. And because I had an early bedtime, I wasn't cool. And so this insecurity comes out as anxiety. When I fall asleep on the couch, I sometimes have a hard time going to sleep because I'm spinning in my head about it.

And then inevitably my biggest fan comes in to say, chill out. You aren't a kid, you are a grown woman who gets to go to bed whenever she wants without criticism. So often our mongers play those tapes, those default patterns over and over. And unless we catch them and stop them, they will play. They're causing more and more anxiety.

We have to stop them using ask. The biggest issue I see with high functioning anxiety is we tend to tell ourselves this is just how it is. Or we berate ourselves for feeling anxious. I hope this podcast episode helped you feel less alone. I hope it'll help you notice when your monger is talking, when you're engaged in a default pattern and give you hope that feeling anxious.

It isn't just how it is. My anxiety obviously still plays a role in my life. But it doesn't run my life anymore. These examples I gave from this past weekend would have ruined my mood a few years ago. They would have changed my weekend in a huge way. Now I can notice I'm feeling anxiety, practice, ask, and know that this isn't a permanent state.

This is just an experience I'm having because my default patterns are kicking. Thank you so much for being here and listening. If you like, what you hear, please share it with others. You think would be interested or leave a review on apple podcasts

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Episode 158: What is Self-Compassion with Gary Ritts

In this episode, a conversation with my childhood minister, Gary Ritts about self-compassion, grace, empathy, Brene Brown, sympathy, loving relationships, and kindness.

The self-help industry is FULL of concepts that are meant to inspire you into a better version of yourself—go big or go home, love yourself, rewrite your past.

But what happens when they’re overused and lose all their meaning? How can they then motivate you to live happier and more fulfilled?  

And what about self-compassion? 

I remember reading Tara Brach’s book, Radical Acceptance, where she tells a story about a woman’s mother who was dying. On her deathbed, the mother opened her eyes and said, “You know, all my life I thought something was wrong with me. What a waste.” 

I can still remember where I was when I read that line. At that time self-compassion was NOT a part of my life. In fact, it was the exact opposite: I believed something was wrong with me and I was constantly looking for the fix. Kind of the opposite of self-love and self-compassion.

The bright side is that one line prompted my quest to figure out what self-compassion was and how it looked for me. It was a cautionary tale—and I swore I would figure out a way to be kinder to myself.

In today’s episode, I’m bringing you a conversation with my childhood minister, Gary Ritts. We started our conversation with self-compassion and went down a number of avenues beyond it into grace, empathy, Brene Brown, sympathy, loving relationships, and kindness. 

This is one of my favorite episodes I have ever recorded and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How self-compassion is radical self-care and what self-compassion can look like

• Ways that self-compassion can look for different people—and how to find ways to recharge yourself so you feel more complete and fulfilled

• Why compassion and self-compassion are a choice that requires practice by learning and doing

• How grace is something that is given to us—and why we can choose to accept it, even if we don’t think we are worthy

Resources mentioned:

• Book: Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life With the Heart of a Buddha by Tara Brach

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

The self-help industry is FULL of concepts that are meant to inspire you into a better version of yourself—go big or go home, love yourself, rewrite your past.

But what happens when they’re overused and lose all their meaning? How can they then motivate you to live happier and more fulfilled?

And what about self-compassion?

I remember reading Tara Brach’s book, Radical Acceptance, where she tells a story about a woman’s mother who was dying. On her deathbed, the mother opened her eyes and said, “You know, all my life I thought something was wrong with me. What a waste.”

I can still remember where I was when I read that line. At that time self-compassion was NOT a part of my life. In fact, it was the exact opposite: I believed something was wrong with me and I was constantly looking for the fix. Kind of the opposite of self-love and self-compassion.

The bright side is that one line prompted my quest to figure out what self-compassion was and how it looked for me. It was a cautionary tale—and I swore I would figure out a way to be kinder to myself.

In today’s episode, I’m bringing you a conversation with my childhood minister, Gary Ritts. We started our conversation with self-compassion and went down a number of avenues beyond it into grace, empathy, Brene Brown, sympathy, loving relationships, and kindness.

This is one of my favorite episodes I have ever recorded and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

How self-compassion is radical self-care and what self-compassion can look like

Ways that self-compassion can look for different people—and how to find ways to recharge yourself so you feel more complete and fulfilled

Why compassion and self-compassion are a choice that requires practice by learning and doing

How grace is something that is given to us—and why we can choose to accept it, even if we don’t think we are worthy

Resources mentioned:

Book: Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life With the Heart of a Buddha by Tara Brach

Coach In Your Pocket

The Happier Approach Book

Transcript:

Gary: Self compassion is not a constant. It comes and goes when you're in the loving relationship, which relationship implies a connection. I think you may be feeling self-compassion. The trick is to recognize that by being in a relationship, you are worthy of that grace.

Nancy: Self-compassion is a phrase that has been used so much.

It has lost all meaning. I remember reading Tara Brach's book, radical acceptance, and she tells a story about a woman whose mother was dying on her death bed. The mother opened her eyes and said, all my life, I thought something was wrong with me. What a waste. I can still remember where I was when I read that.

And at the time self-compassion was definitely not a part of my life. In fact, it was the exact opposite. I believed something was wrong with me and I was constantly looking for the fix, but that one line started me on a quest to figure out what self-compassion was and how it looked for me. It was a cautionary tale and I swore I would figure out a way to be kinder to myself.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Today, I'm bringing you my conversation with my childhood minister, Reverend Gary Ritz, our topic area was self-compassion, but we went down a number of avenues in this conversation.

We talked about grace empathy, Brené Brown sympathy, loving relationships and kindness. This is one of my favorite conversations I've ever recorded on the podcast. And I hope you will enjoy it as much as I do. When I initially asked Gary to be on the podcast, I gave him the subject matter self-compassion and provided him with a list of things to think about what I loved most about this conversation is the different topic areas we covered and the different lens through which Gary sees the world.

We can get bogged down and hearing the same message said over and over. And Gary provided me. And hopefully you, with some new ways of looking at things, some of my takeaways were self-compassion is radical. Self-care. Compassion and self-compassion are an act. They are a choice, not something that just happens.

It's a practice, something you learned and do. Grace is something that is given to us that we can choose to accept. Even if we don't think we're worried. Give us a quick introduction of yourself. If you don't mind,

Gary: Been in the business for…wow. 50 plus years nowadays, a United church of Christ retired minister. I still have my hand in doing services on weekends to fill in for ministers that are absent or not able to be there.

I went to school in Ohio and then seminary in Denver, Colorado, probably one of the. Important things in my life. It was a very liberal open-minded seminary at the time. And it just opened me up to a faith that was originally intellectual. And then became more a part of me and more inside my heart and down in the body.

The head trip had to change some things. I understood what I'd grown up with, what I've learned in church. And I tend to be a little outside the door. When it comes to faith and understanding who Jesus was. And what love is that he talked about and trying to help people have an open mind to express and accept all kinds of religions and their interpretation, because there's so many similarities.

I believe more than differences. It's a more of a literal versus open-minded interpretation.

Nancy: Well, I'm so glad you're here. And not that it's the same as his Christianity, but I think for me, that's what switched in when I was able to embody the principles of psychology that I had learned, but I just knew them intellectually.

And I find that a lot with my. Listeners and clients is that we can recite the concepts. We can talk about them intellectually, but really letting them sink in and become a part of who we are is a very different process. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So today we are talking about self-compassion and it is something I talk about a lot.

I tend to use the word kindness. Self-kindness a lot because self-compassion has been beaten to death. Yeah. In people who just have the intellectual understanding, it's lost all meaning because we know we need to be compassionate to ourselves. We know we need to have more compassion. And yet the idea of it is just befuddling.

Yes. So tell me. What is your definition of self-compassion.

Gary: It helped me to start to think about the differences between grace and self-compassion. And to me, first of all, grace is something else. That we can receive or not. And also the notion of selfishness versus self-compassion how those often get confused.

I certainly understand that, but as I look at it, self interest selfish ness is the end point is. Me, when I'm getting something it's selfish it's for me where compassion and even self compassion is more a part of becoming a part of a flow that starts with grace. It comes through us, but it doesn't stop there.

Then it goes outside of us of compassion. In its expression needs to become an act or reaching out and touching another life. Whether that's just listening to someone to help them be real and to be validated in who they are. And all of that can get real mixed up in terms of self-worth. And again, it gets confusing when you try to measure who you are by what you do.

As opposed to simply being who you are and what you do is out here, not a part of your worth at all, but it's a real fuzzy line. I believe that I think it's Brené Brown that actually says that compassion is not a virtue. It's a commitment, which means it's an action. It's something you've got to choose to do.

And you it's not that you have it or not. You just either do it or you don't. And that is a conscious choice, grace. Grace is available. And the challenge, I think for all of us is to accept it to allow it to come inside of us and validate who we are without question. And then you mentioned about the Jesus thing about loving your neighbor as yourself, which is actually an old Testament statement that Jesus is there to his favorite Leviticus, quotes, love God and love self as neighbor itself.

And to me. It's you mentioned, how can you be in a loving relationship and yet may not love yourself? I don't personally think that's possible because I think that there are moments that again, self compassion is not a constant. It comes and goes. Yeah. So when you're in the loving relationship, which relationship implies a connection.

I think you may be feeling self-compassion the trick is to recognize that by being in a relationship, you are worthy of that grace, that free gift that this other person is giving to you, therefore. When Jesus says, you love your neighbor as yourself to me. I look at it as you are loving your neighbor at the same time, you are loving yourself.

So therefore it becomes like a circle. And if you don't love yourself, I think there may be some not falseness per se, but lack of depth to what you're giving the other person lack of maybe a part of yourself is you're doing what you're supposed to do. Which sometimes can back up into you and you might feel good about what you're doing.

And that's a little bit of self compassion too. And but again, the word I like to use as you practice compassion and you receive grace, it's free.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. When I you said love yourself before you can love someone else. I always have, I have a big trigger around that phrase.

Gary: Again, let me correct that though.

I'm not sure. It's always before.

Nancy: There you go, okay, go ahead.

Gary: As in as the same time as,

Nancy: oh, okay

Gary: I know what you're saying. I can't love someone unless I love myself, but I'm not sure that's what he was saying. No, I think he was saying you love your neighbor as you are loving yourself.

Nancy: Okay. So the trigger was when I was single for a long time, people would say, oh, it's because, you got to love yourself before you find someone else.

And I'm like, okay, but come on. That's a lifelong thing of loving myself. That's not something I'm just going to master. And then proof's going to come in this amazing person to love.

Gary: I suppose you could build a wall. If there's something in the back of your mind is saying, how could anyone love it?

Yes, then you do have an issue and you've got a block that you're putting up for not allowing that reciprocity to take place. And certainly again, I would appeal to the past how we were raised Bernie. I love her story about the squad she couldn't make and that's. Put that roadblock up for her.

And I, yeah, I think you're right about that. It's there are things there that this allow us to love ourselves that say who do you like for an egg? What do you think?

Nancy: Yeah. I would say that my marriage has helped me. The love of my husband and him continually reminding me of, I'm in this like I'm on your side as much as I want to be like, fighting with him or whatever, for him to bring it back to be like, dude, we're a team, stop trying to push me away.

That has led me to love myself more, like he has shown me to do that. So I was going to say, I think it's layered. Oh yeah. Yeah, I love hearing those words. Thank you, Gary.

Gary: So I wrote down here is empathy and compassion the same thing as empathy and sympathy are the same thing, Are love and compassion, the same thing. Love and compassion are not synonyms. One thing when Jesus uses, when they write the word love in the new Testament, it's actually the Greek word. Then what we don't know is what they're actually saying is because there's three Greek words for love. Aeros, “Oh, I love You” that kind of stuff. And then there's Phileo Philadelphia brotherly love and then there's a compassionate love Agape, which is outward flowing from a sense of love that is deep and real. And doesn't expect return. It's simple. Outward most of the time, that's the word being used in the new Testament.

Not all the time. Phileo was also a word used in the new Testament, but again, to me, that compassion, it's the biggest kind of expression of love and faith and whatever that the caring for the other person without expectation of reward in any kind of including heaven.

Nancy: Because for me, it was helpful. Even though empathy is something you give to other people for myself. When I could think I need to give myself some empathy here was helpful for me to think about it rather than compassion the word compassion mostly because of Brené’s work and her education on what empathy is.

And I can recognize because the tendency is to try to hack ourselves right to being what's quote unquote acceptable. We've been well-trained yes. Rather than the idea of let me first accept where I'm coming from and where, who I am and then do whatever. But even that becomes touchy because then it's okay, I accept myself for who I am.

Let me get to the part where I get. Rather than truly accepting myself for who I am, warts all, like we put a lot of lip service to that actual doing it is hard.

Gary: It is because there's the mind, the little speaker in the mind is always correcting us. I had a lady say isn't the conscience hour.

A voice of God. And I said, no, that's what our parents have taught us. That's what our society has taught us. It's a tape playing over and it's just, you don't listen to it. And again I guess I could say that I really came into my faith through, Meditation quieting that mind, by shutting down all the sheds and the arts and everything had been taught and just be in the presence of whatever came into me at that time.

And it like one of the illustrations I always use was when I made a call in a hospital, I would always stop at the door before I went in and I would empty myself. Everything that I had, that I was carrying at the door and walk in and just be there for that person. Now, granted, like you say, it's not always easy, cause you might've just been yelled at, by somebody on the street or something. Yeah. Why are you parking there? You gotta leave it behind and you just because being in the present moment, that to me is the most powerful way to find grace. To find self-worth and even to be finding the self-worth of another person is to be in the moment.

I love the difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is to feel with at the same time as sympathy is to feel full. Someone you may understand it, what they're feeling, but you're not at the same moment feeling it. I've always remembered that when I'm walking into a room, it's not sympathy. I'm looking to give it's empathy.

I need to try to feel, even if I've never been in that person's position, which sometimes I can't because. I haven't been in their position overnight, but I'm trying to get as close to it as I can, to the feeling of fear, which we've all had a feeling of confusion, which often leads to all kinds of, what's coming out of this person.

And I try to look behind that and say, okay what's the sadness here? What's the pain? What is the, what are you struggling with? So again, I love that ability to let it go. Yeah. Be in the moment and focus more on, on w what's going on.

Nancy: It always strikes me, this is, and this is my observation.

I did Brené Browns training in the daring way, and I think it was my bias and Brené’s bias towards empathy. So she says the key to decreasing shame is empathy and self care. But there was empathy and then self compassion, like empathy was the bigger message than self-compassion and she had that bias.

And then I took that bias and made it even bigger because I knew empathy. I didn't really get self-compassion. And so I came back from the training and I'm teaching about these two things and it's a lot of empathy. And then yeah. You got to love yourself too. Whatever. I don't really know what that means, but let's talk about empathy.

And so my clients would go out into the world and they would feel shame and they'd find they tell the story. They'd find empathetic people and. They come back to me and they're like,

Gary: Again. They have to ask themselves, are you finding simp empathetic or sympathy?

Nancy: It didn't matter. Cause they weren't able to give it to themselves.

They weren't able to get self-compassion. They were just doing empathy and people were saying, oh, that must be really hard. And we're in it with them, but it wouldn't go in because they couldn't give themselves the permission. Yes. Because I was teaching them. And self-compassion. And so then I saw Brené Brown was with Kristin Neff.

Who's an expert in self-compassion. And Brené said, I really struggle with self-compassion like, this is something I really struggle with. And it was like a light bulb went off in my head and I was like, oh, I struggled with it too. And your teachings and my teachings. Messing this all up, and so I flipped it on its head and was like it's both, but I need to be amping up the self-compassion piece.

Cause I got empathy. I got empathy all day long. I don't have the self compassion. And once I realized that's when everything started shifting. For me. And I got to know myself on such a deeper level because my mentality was everything that comes up for me. That brings shame. I got to get past it and move on so I can fix it and get better.

Versus let me acknowledge this and give myself some support around this and then see what can happen.

Gary: Yeah. And I would again say that if you are empathetic, there's a part of you that is worthy to feel empathy. You know what I mean? But your head might not realize that because there's too many messages going up, but to be empathetic, you have to have emptied yourself and felt worthy of feeling.

Rather than just for, and give him you trite phrases and cliches. Good for you kid.

Nancy: Well thanks, (laughter)

Gary: Heck of a journey!

I know when I am tired of giving, being compassionate and I need some self-compassion to recharge to, in other words, to do something for myself. That will recharge that spiritual part of me. And that's not as easy as it sounds. Oh, that means I got to go out and work in the yard or I've got to go build something.

Not necessarily it's whatever you come away from feeling. More complete, more accomplished walk in the woods, meditation, yoga. It's just, it's different for all of us. I think it's composed of a lot of things and I can always remember. I never had a sabbatical til I got left the Methodist church and went into the United church of Christ, where it was required in your contract.

Judy and I went to the native American college. And I came back from that. So recharged because I was so fed by a totally well, not totally a very deep spiritual reality in the native American culture, connected to the earth. And my soul was being fed. My compassion. I was received. Compassion, from people and who talked and shared.

And I came back and look out, those sermons were probably the best I've ever preached, but I could feel different walking into a hospital room because I had practiced self compassion, doing something for myself, not just self acceptance.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think that, that's where in, in the model that I talk about and you have that, the voice, the monger, and then we go, oh, let me give myself a break.

And we go into what I call false self-compassion and that's the BFF voice, which is go ahead, have that drink, take the day off and watch Netflix. But that isn't soul nurturing, right? That is just. I numbing. And then the third character is the voice of the biggest fan who comes in to say, Hey, I think maybe we need to do some mindfulness exercises or we need to meditate, or we need to run or take a walk, go outside, which isn't necessarily what we mentally want to do.

A lot of times our minds is telling us something. Different than our soul.

Gary: Yeah. And sometimes with should attach. Yes. Yeah. You should do this.

Nancy: Yeah. Many times,

Gary: And certainly part of that reality for you and us is that over time I learned that Judy, what she suggests will be helpful to me. And there's still a little part of my mind said, I don't want to do this.

I just want to sit and watch Netflix. But the other side of me says, If you go with her lead, you're going to be better when you come back. And that's always the case. And probably that's a part of that. Self-compassion too is find the people you trust, like Bearnaise little, one inch square to also give you some thoughts on what's good for me to do you know me?

What might be good for us or for me, or.

Nancy: Yeah. And there's paying attention to, oh, when I do this, I do feel better, and remember that's even knowing, like when I eat an apple, instead of grabbing the chocolate chips that I want, I feel bad. Yeah. Yeah. And so then it's oh that's nurturing to myself.

So let me do more of that. But it's our brain convinces us when you can get away with the chocolate chips. So do the chocolate chips, play with watching Netflix, why wouldn't you? Because we're always gaming the system. So I have a question about grace. Okay. What happens if you, you receive grace and you don't have the self-compassion piece,

Gary: I would say you cannot receive grace.

If you don't think you're worthy of it receiving in a sense of acknowledging, accepting and feeling because you can block right. And it can come from we've just talked about all many directions of why we're not worthy. And then probably the hardest time to accept grace is in the midst of forgiveness of ourselves because guilt and shame are huge roadblocks.

And that's, I think the power of a priest confessions in the Catholic church is to have that person who will take that away from them. To allow the grace to get into us. And of course the Protestant understanding of that is that we are our own priests, but that's often not easy. You have to be willing to forgive yourself.

That it was wrong. Like you say, and you did something wrong. Okay. I did it wrong. It doesn't make me a bad person, bad choices, maybe stupid but not a bad person. And therefore the grace can then get in. But I agree with you that without at least an openness to self-compassion, if you've got a block there, the grace, you're not going to recognize it.

I'm not saying you don't have it or get it. You might not.

Nancy: I get it. I get it.

How can you teach someone? Self-compassion

Gary: I think you probably have to come in by a back door, teach them awareness, quieting the voice. I think sometimes self-compassion will happen. Yeah. And also help them reflect on times things they've done that have made them feel good, because I think we all do that.

And I think people will know that feeling. Whereas you help them name it as self-compassion, they can begin to see it as connected. Oh, it's actually a feeling or even deeper than that. It's a place to stand. And again, a lot of tummy psychology and all therapy is helping people now. The issues and the positives and the negatives and helping us put a name to what we're experiencing.

And again, I like to use Jesus. People get all upset that he's a miracle worker. No, he's not. He helps people name their emotions. That's how they got. You helped them name them. The demons. He called them. They called them back then it's a naming feelings is what he was doing. Nothing magical.

Certainly a big. Realize that when you feeling those feelings of being replenished, you are receiving grace, help them put a name on that. As this is what you're feeling. It's a good thing. What's happening.

Nancy: Yeah. It's always, it's so funny. I spent the majority of my career and the majority of my life, trying to hack my way out of my feelings.

Like you shouldn't be feeling this way. You should be feeling this way, and it wasn't until I figured out, oh, I have to acknowledge this stuff. And the most powerful thing I can say to myself is, so what if you are, so I'll say, oh, I'm angry about this, but I shouldn't be angry. I should be blah, blah, blah.

And then I'll be like, so what if you are angry? And it's oh yeah. What if I am, like then I can move around in it when I can give myself the permission to do it, but we spend so, or, I have spent so much time trying to pretty everything up. And make sure that it looks okay instead of giving myself the compassion to say, what if you are imperfect?

Yeah. Yeah.

Gary: When our psychologist says it's neither good nor bad, that's a heck of a message, but that's what I got in seminary was it's okay. What you're feeling is okay. It's you just, sometimes you need to experience it. If I could feel pressure building, oftentimes I knew I needed to cry. Okay.

And I had songs that I could play on the piano that would make me cry and I began to worry, that's okay. It's okay to do that and go because once you move through it,

Nancy: oh, absolutely.

Gary: The weight is off your shoulders and you can breathe again.

Nancy: Because it's almost like there was a backlash, I think, and cognitive behavioral therapy is wonderful for its purposes, but it does not help with the acknowledging the feelings piece.

Like it is definitely ha let me hack my way out of it. And cognitive behavioral therapy is so popular for that reason because I can analyze. Yeah. Makes sense. Yes, exactly. And I think it's embracing what doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Gary: It's the key and the hard work of therapy. Yes, because it's draining, it's tiresome, you're fighting and fighting.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I get so tired of, I'm tired of saying it. I get tired. Cause I know my clients are like, I don't want to freaking name what I'm feeling right now. Lady like solve the problem for me. Yes. Okay. Okay. Feeling angry. Now tell me what to do, okay. Any last words you would say

Gary: last word. So just to go for it, practice self-compassion.

Awareness Grace's there. It's free and it's calming. It's all around you, but you got to get the blocks out of the way and let it in, and then you can give it away in compassion. Amen.

Nancy: Amen.

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Episode 157: Unhooking the Lie that You Need to be Mean to Yourself

In this episode, I chat with my friend Jamie In this episode, Jamie about her anxiety and how her Monger shows up in her life, and ways your Monger might show up in your life, too.

For those of us with high functioning anxiety, the voice of our inner Monger is loud. 

It’s the voice that tells us we’ll never succeed. 

It’s the voice that tells us we’re an imposter and we’re mere moments away from being found out. 

It’s an internal voice of belittling and nastiness. It consistently makes us feel like we aren’t enough. 

For those of us with exceptionally loud Mongers, we can’t WAIT for the day that our Monger disappears. And while we’d like to silence that inner critic once and for all, what happens if you feel like you’d never get anything done without your Monger? What do you do then?

That’s exactly what my dear friend Jamie told me… and it sparked an epiphany. I needed to get to the root of why my own Monger was so belittling, shaming, and mean—and why I believed that I needed that voice. In this episode, Jamie and I are chatting about her anxiety and how her Monger shows up in her life, and ways your Monger might show up in your life, too.

To learn more about the Monger, listen to Episode 110: The Voices In Your Head—The Monger

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How Jamie brings her own sense of humor to the many rules and rigidities we have in dealing with our anxiety

• The different ways that our Monger can show up: mean and relentless or critical and pushy and ways our Monger can shame us and keep us stuck in all areas of our lives

• How Jamie realized that her Monger would never fully go away but instead she could make her part of the team

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Have you ever had a conversation with someone that sparked an aha moment that helped you see yourself in a whole new light? I had one of those conversations a couple of years ago with a dear friend of mine after I'd done a presentation on mongers. First, let me back up a little bit. For years, I taught about the monger, and I was fascinated by this concept of the inner critic because my inner critic was driving me crazy. She was constantly talking to me, and constantly telling me what to do, and constantly making me feel like crap. I'd done some research on what to do with the monger, and I was teaching about it and talking about it in a variety of different places, but none of it was really working for me in my own life. But, I hadn't admitted that to myself. I guess a part of me was just hoping one day it would click and, poof, my monger would be gone.

So, back to the conversation. I was doing this presentation at a local wine bar on the subject of mongers. It was an open presentation to the public, but a number of my friends came there to support me. And after the presentation, one of my closest friends, Jamie, came up to me to say, "Oh, my gosh. Love the presentation. You're an amazing presenter. And I'm not going to do anything you said because I really need my monger. If I didn't have my monger, I wouldn't get anything done." We laughed, and joked, and ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, and we went about our business.

Then, later as I got home, I realized Jamie was right. I really believed I needed my monger, too. I had this secret love affair with my monger. After that conversation, I realized all the material I was sharing, it wasn't working. All the stuff I was talking about, it wasn't fixing the problem for me, and it wasn't going to one day magically, poof, make my monger disappear. So, that was when I decided to go on a quest and figure out how to solve this monger problem, how to really get to the root of why she was so belittling, shaming, and mean, and why I believed I needed that voice.

I give Jamie the credit for helping me get honest with myself so I could get to the root of this monger problem. It was through that conversation that I then wrote The Happier Approach. So, I wanted to bring Jamie back and just chat with her about her monger, and anxiety, and all the things that we talk about on this podcast.

You're listening to The Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Jamie and I gathered on my front porch. It was a beautiful fall day, and you'll hear the birds and the cars driving by because I just wanted kind of a chit-chat with my friend. Nothing with fancy microphones and no crazy intensive questions, just two friends gathering to talk about anxiety, mongers, rules, regulations, and all the things in between. I hope you will enjoy this conversation.

Nancy: So, how would you say your inner critic monger motivates you?

Jamie: I would say it's one of those like everybody's depending on you, you got to get this done. If you don't get it done, kids aren't going to have their uniform to wear for soccer. Or if you don't get it done, people are going to see the piles of dog hair in all the corners of the house and across all major surfaces of the house, floors. You better get it done because you'll look like a goofball if you don't.

Nancy: So, highly critical and motivating.

Jamie: I don't know about critical, like you're a dummy kind of, like you're so stupid kind of thing. I got somebody in there saying, "Dude, you're running out of time. Get it done." It's more of like you're going to look like a fool if you don't do whatever it is you need to do, or your kids are showing up without their teeth brushed, or whatever.

Nancy: Yeah, it's more, as we were talking about before, the people pleasing-vein than you are a terrible person, more what will they think.

Jamie: Yes, yes. Reflects poorly, and you look like an incompetent boob.

Nancy: I want to jump in here real quick and say I believe everyone has a monger. And it was through talking about The Happier Approach that I realized some of us have a monger who's like a demon. She is mean, relentless, and unforgiving. She is constantly telling us that we have to get it done or we will fail. Then, some of us, like Jamie, have a monger who was driving, and pushing, and critical, but more like a pushy teacher than a demon.

Jamie: I would never relax or pause if I couldn't sit down while there was stuff out because there's always stuff out. And it can stay out and I can stress myself out about getting it done, or I can sit down and watch a show with my family and the dishes will be there later. They're not going anywhere.

Jamie: But, Dave was telling me that ... He's like, "You are such an enigma," because we have the dishwasher that has the rack at the top where you can put all the silverware in all nice and neat. I save all the silverware till the end, because it drives me bananas because I have a very rigid way about how I put the silverware in the dishwasher, which Dave was like, "The counters are covered in clutter, and you're organizing the knives in the dishwasher." I was like, "Well, I hate it when I get them all organized and then somebody has a piece of toast, and there's one more knife, and I don't have room for it in the knife section."

Jamie: So, I'd rather let everything sit out, come to a final stopping point, and say, "Okay, it's the end of the day. No more knives are coming in and out." I can organize all the knives, soup spoons, big forks, little forks, teaspoons, and then coffee-type ... demitasse spoons at the end, big to little. "Dave was like, "I don't even know what to say."

Nancy: But, that brings you joy.

Jamie: Yes, I like seeing. He was like, "You can have dog hair everywhere and crap all over the counters, but all your knives are in the knife spot and all your forks in the fork spot." And I was like, "Yes, but that's how they get clean. If you just put them in willy-nilly, then when I pull them out, there's still peanut butter on some stuff. So, yeah.

Nancy: Would you say you have a lot of rules? Rigidities.

Jamie: If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. So if it sits in a pile on the dining room table for six months, I'm okay with that as long as it's not in my way. Because if I'm going to do a project, I want to do it right, and I don't want to do it half-ass. So, I'd rather it sit there if it's not something that's very pertinent. I'd rather it sit there and get done when I have the time to get it done. Now, saying when I have the time, that'll be when I'm 70.

Nancy: Right, right, right, right.

Jamie: But, I'm not just going to kind of just cram it into the cabinet and put it away just to have it out of sight because I still need to do it. Then, I know it's sitting in the cabinet in a disheveled mess, so I have to get it back out of the cabinet, put it back out on the dining room table even just to start. So, I'd rather just leave it there, now I need to do it. I see it. I know I need to do it. And I may not get to it for a couple of months, but that's okay. I'll get there. I just don't want to do it haphazardly and haven't done half-ass. So, I'd rather it sit around and-

Nancy: And if it's out of sight, it's out of mind?

Jamie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Dave's like a stuff it in the closet, get it out of sight, nothing to see here.

Nancy: Right. Yes.

Jamie: If people are coming over, yes, I lik the house to look nice and organized and stuff. But, I mean, if there's my makeup bag sitting out on the counter, people know I wear makeup. It's not a big deal. Just a makeup bag. But, Dave likes totally clear counters and ... So that's just ...

Nancy: What is the right way then? Who determines the right way in the sense of like-

Jamie: Whoever gets there first.

Nancy: But not between you and Dave, but in your brain.

Jamie: Oh. Oh.

Nancy: What makes it the right way? Is it order? Is it efficiency?

Jamie: I would say it's order, like laundry. Having all the laundry done would be like washed, folded, and put away. But, I can usually get to the wash, dried, in a basket, but that whole folding ... Which I love folding laundry. I find it very relaxing. I have a little board, and I put shirt out on the board and you flap the flaps and it folds it up into this perfect little square.

Jamie: Then, I totally Marie Kondoed. This is one of those things. Yes, there may be 27 dishes in my sink, but the shirts that I did wash, fold, and put away are very organized because they're in a file system versus stacked. They're flipped.

Nancy: Oh, okay.

Jamie: So, you can kind of dig through your shirts and see all the different colors and-

Nancy: Oh, wow.

Jamie: ... whatever you're doing. Right, crazy pants. If you were to walk in my house, you would not think that my drawers would look like that. But, that would be lovely to have the time to do that. But, I mean, I never have time to totally get everything folded, and so we're always looking for soccer uniforms in the clean laundry basket. It's always clean, but it's just not folded and put away.

Nancy: And until you can fold it with the board-

Jamie: Yeah, if I'm going to fold it's-

Nancy: It has to be with ...

Jamie: ... got to be with the board, and neat, and tidy. Otherwise, I'm just kind of wasting my time. Why fold it if it's not going to fit in the drawer where it's supposed to go?

Nancy: Right. Okay. Fascinating. Because the part I find fascinating is we all have those rules and rigidities. So when someone says, "Oh, you're a type A person ..." There are things you are type A about.

Jamie: Yes.

Nancy: Then there are things you are not type A about. I mean, the nickname for your family is the Must bombs because-

Jamie: Running in with our pants on fire, sliding into home with dirt all over our faces. We're here. We made it. Suitcase is very packed, nice and neat. Everything's rolled, and it fits, and it's all in there, but, whew, what a ride.

Nancy: I remember when Doug said to me ... Even recently, we had an ... Just this week we had an argument because we were watching TV show. I go to the bathroom and get a drink and come back and sit down, and I'm starting back up the TV show. Then, he gets up to get a snack. I'm like, "What are you doing?" He said, "Oh, I just decided I wanted a snack."

Jamie: We already had halftime.

Nancy: I was like, "That is inefficient. We had the break." And he said, "We're watching the TV show. Why do we need to be efficient in watching a TV show?" Which is an excellent point, and that is why I married him.

Jamie: That is true. That is true.

Nancy: I would've snapped at him big time years ago. But now I can be like, "What are you doing? You're being inefficient."

Jamie: What's happening now?

Nancy: Efficiency is one of my rigidities. Even in making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, it has to be efficient in the number of dishes I use and the movement.

Jamie: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Definitely efficient the number of dishes I use. And with efficiency, I am almost rabid about my efficiency with driving. I know the patterns of all the streetlights. If I'm driving north to get on the highway, I know that it's generally going to take longer to go one way when it's not rush hour, and it's going to take longer to go another way when it is rush hour, depending on times and stuff. But then, if there's no rush hour, I know two different ways to go depending on when I peek around the corner if one light is green, I know I need to go straight. Or if it's red, I know it's going to turn-

Nancy: Wow.

Jamie: ... before I get there, and so it's faster to go that way. Bananas. I was like that in law school, too. I have very specific recollections of how I would go to school because I knew if this light's green, I'm going to get the next red light, so I got to turn on the green light here to make sure I get the other green light.

Nancy: Wow.

Jamie: So, I do appreciate some efficiency.

Nancy: That's impressive. Because that's what I always laugh. Mom and I will constantly be like ... Or Dad. My dad was especially bad about this. If you got stuck in traffic and then you figured out a different way, and then you would get your destination and you'd be like, "We did it the right way." Then, Doug ruined it by saying, "How do you know? How do you know this was the right way because you just ended up at the destination the same as you would've a variety of other ways?" I was like, "No, we did it the right way because it was the way we ... It was the way we went."

Jamie: It was what we chose, so it was right.

Nancy: Other than efficiency, are there other rigidities and the order?

Jamie: My side of the bedroom is a bit of a fiasco, but I also have two dogs on my side of the bedroom just for a little credit. But, Dave is like, "What is happening over there?" I was like, "Well, I got to get the sheets folded and put them in the little under the bed zippy thing. And if they're not folded right, they're not going to fit, so I got to make sure I get them folded right to get them into the underbed Zippy thing. There's a recipe in that magazine that I know I want. I may have forgotten which recipe it was, but I know there was a good one in there. I got to rip that recipe out, take a picture of it so I have it in my phone."

Jamie: He's just like, "Just throw it away. Put it in the recycle bin. Move on. Move on with your life. Clear the clutter out of your life." That's where I get kind of bogged down. I know I need to do something with that, so I'm going to hold onto it.

Nancy: Because you have a system for what you need to do with it. It's just having the time to invoke the system.

Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nancy: Okay.

Jamie: Which I'll never have the time to invoke the system.

Nancy: Right, right, right.

Jamie: But, I try. I try.

Nancy: Yeah. No, I appreciate the endless hope.

Jamie: Hope springs eternal.

Nancy: I know anxiety is something that you struggle with. How would you say the monger plays into that or these rigidities even?

Jamie: At the beginning of my trip down anxiety lane was mainly end of law school, beginning of work. It was you have to take bar exam to practice, because I practiced on a state border, so I needed both bar exams. I remember after I took the bar exam in the first state where I practiced, after the bar exam, I was just like, "That was terrible. I know I flunked. I got to go through all of that again." I couldn't talk for a day.

Jamie: My dad had driven me from where we took the bar exam in mid-Missouri to where I grew up in Kansas city. I think I just stared out the window and just kind of cried and whimpered on the way home. My dad was like, "It's fine." I'm like, "It's not fine. I'm going to have to do it again."

Jamie: I still remember where we pulled up in the driveway and my dad just kind of waved at my mom, just gave her the cutthroat sign like, "Don't even engage. Just let her go whimper in her corner and lick her wounds, and maybe she'll come out tomorrow better." There's no way I passed that stupid test. I'm going to have to take it again, and I'm going to have to go through all that misery of studying for it again.

Jamie: I kind of got a hybrid answer. I got you pass the bar exam for the state of Missouri. Then, if you want to take an exam in another state, if you score high enough on the multiple choice part of the test, you can just carry that part over. But, I didn't get high enough on the multiple choice part to carry it over for the neighboring state, and so I had to do the whole thing again to take the neighboring state.

Jamie: So I did pass, but I didn't pass high. I kind of passed low because I didn't get to carry over my multiple choice score when I took Illinois. So then, it was, okay, I was smart enough to pass, but I have this nice job at a nice law firm. They're going to suss me out at some point and fire me because there's no way I should have this job. I got this job because my dad knew somebody, and I interviewed well, and my grades were pretty good, and I passed the bar, so I'm qualified. But, when's the other shoe going to drop and they're going to figure me out? So, that's like where the monger comes in like, "Hey, walking into work today. Didn't get fired yesterday. Woo! Coming back again. Let's see what happens today."

Jamie: So, that's that monger and that string of anxiety. And then now, since I'm not practicing, it's all with the kids. Kids get their homework done? Did they play the piano? Did they go to soccer practice? Are they doing well in school? Did I sign them up for the right things? If I don't sign them up for the right things, are they not going to improve with piano, improve with soccer, improve with basketball, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?

Nancy: This is so common. Our mongers convince us we're a fraud and we're going to get found out. And her message is we need to keep hustling, pushing, and striving. Then, hopefully, one day we will be accepted. But in reality, she keeps changing the goalpost, just as she did with Jamie. Once she stopped practicing law, her monger came in to tell her the same message of never enough in regard to parenting. Your monger's message will just shift and change with you until you decide to get her under control and bring in your biggest fan.

Jamie: And that was where I kind of gotten out of the legal job stress and then kind of moved it to a different kind of holy crap. It's not me getting fired. It's my kids getting behind or not having the right opportunities or whatever. I mean, we live in lala land. They have plenty of opportunities.

Nancy: I want to step in here and talk about privilege, which Jamie alludes to. Jamie is right. She and I do live in lala land with the amount of privilege we have. And that is one of our monger's favorite way of shaming us and keeping us stuck. Our monger will tell us we need to be grateful, that we can't complain, that we're being whiny and privileged. And that message isn't helping anyone.

Nancy: Being privileged is a different issue. If you're privileged, then you need to own that and use it. Use it to bring awareness to less privileged voices, use it to give to organizations that help fight the disparity in our world. But, beating yourself up, shaming yourself for worrying about privileged things, well, that doesn't help those who are starving or suffering finding food, shelter, and employment. It just makes you feel paralyzed by shame. Privileged is something you need to own. It isn't something you need to shame yourself about.

Jamie: I think if I don't do one more thing or get them enrolled in a certain thing, then they're going to fall behind and not be as good as they could be. Or they could've been great at this, but I dropped the ball and didn't sign them up or didn't register them in time, and then it's my fault, but-

Nancy: Before we hit record, you were saying that the relationship with your monger ... You weren't quite as strong as your statement that you made to me at the wine bar now as you felt then.

Jamie: Yes.

Nancy: What has changed?

Jamie: It was one of those things where I was like, "Dude, if I don't have my monger, I'm not studying for the bar. I'm not trying to find a job." Or she is back there saying, "Get it done. Do it." And otherwise, it's a heck of a lot easier to sit down and watch Jeopardy. But, I guess it's ...

Jamie: One of my good friends has said, "We don't live in a show house. You can't expect yourself to live in a show house." Then, Dave will say, "But we can't live in a pigsty either." So, it's just trying to navigate that balance, which you're always walking that tightrope of, "We could vacuum. Let's get that done," versus ...

Jamie: Before, it was working with the kids on pitching because they were going to be pitching for a season in baseball. I watched YouTube videos, and then I was out in the driveway working with them. Yes, I could be inside folding clothes, vacuuming, doing whatever project I left on the northeast corner of the dining room table that I know I need to get to, or I can teach them how to throw a pitch. And I'd rather them know how to throw a pitch than get to whatever project that's been sitting on the dining room table forever. But, that's the battle is, but, yes, I do need to go inside and take care of some things. So, it's just that constant which way am I going to land on the tightrope.

Nancy: I think initially when I started this work, I wanted her to be gone. But, it's recognizing that she is always going to be there. And that's why I love the model of the biggest fan because the biggest fan is just the monger with kind words.

Jamie: Yes. And that is a much more content way to go about things is having a, "All right, you got to get it done. How about we turn on some music while you do it," or something or have the kids help.

Nancy: Yeah, because I think about ... Because I was going to say when you were talking about the baseball, that really is about what do I value, and I value my kids knowing how to play baseball. I value me spending time with them. I value this is making a memory more so than I value that the project on the northeast corner of the dining room table is done. And I can't do that all the time. I also am not going to be the mom who's going to be constantly out here playing with my kids to the detriment of-

Jamie: Right, right.

Nancy: The rules and rigidities will constantly fascinate me because I think they are just fascinating.

Jamie: Yes. We humans are an interesting breed.

Nancy: I love how Jamie talks about being human and brings her own sense of humor to the many rules are rigidities we have in dealing with our anxiety. We all tend to take ourselves a little too seriously. So anytime we can bring humor and some kindness to our lives, we are better off.

Nancy: I will say, even after all this time, my monger has not, poof, disappeared, but she has lost her hold on me. Bringing her and her shaming ways out into the open has made a huge difference. And living the principles I talk about in The Happier Approach allows me to keep her in check.

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Episode 156: What Is Happy?

In this episode, I decided to ask some of the people in my life—my mom, my second mom, my nephews, and my friend Andrew, who is a philosophy professor at Otterbein University—what they think about happiness.

What is happy? 

This is a loaded question—but it’s something I want to explore in this episode because happiness is the #1 thing my clients say they want. But how do we get to happiness? What is the path there?

Lately, I’ve been on a quest to go deeper. To ask questions. To get clear. 

In episode 153, I explored how asking and studying into a question helps you to really get to the heart of the issue. 

What does happiness look like? 

What does happiness feel like? 

How will we know when we’ve reached happiness? 

For this episode, I decided to ask some of the people in my life—my mom, my second mom, my nephews, and my friend Andrew, who is a philosophy professor at Otterbein University—what they think about happiness and you’ll hear their ideas throughout the show. 

As you’re listening to this episode, I challenge you to ask yourself: what is happy for you? 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How happiness is fleeting and is a feeling we have, just like sadness and anger. It isn’t a state of constant being

• How to give ourselves grace and relieve ourselves of the pressure that we should be happy all the time—and if we aren’t happy, there must be something wrong with us

• Examples of what makes people happy from reading in peace, creating something, and spending time with family

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: What is happy. This is a topic I want to explore because the number one thing my clients say, they want more happiness. Don't we all. And lately I've been a bit on this quest to go deeper. As I alluded to a couple of weeks ago, I want to start asking the question under the question. And so in this episode, we're diving deeper into the question.

What is happy? What does it look like? How do you know when you're experiencing it? You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. I began my journey, figuring out what is happy by asking my family, what did they consider happy to be?

And I didn't give them much notice. I just came down to my mom's house for a socially distanced family gathering and said, Hey, what do you think happy is? And recorded their answers. And their answers were fascinating to me, the variety, and yet the similarities I'll be sprinkling. Those answers throughout the show.

And as you're listening, I challenge you to ask yourself what is happy for you? First let's hear from my nephew, Aaron, as he talks about gratitude.

Nancy: Tell me Aaron, how would you define happy? What is happy to you?

Aaron: I try and be a grateful person. I think when I'm grateful for things that I do every day. Stop to think about a moment that I appreciated. It makes me happier.

Nancy: My nephew and I have talked about his gratitude practice in the past. He's in his early twenties and he's in nursing school and he learned about it in one of his classes. They encouraged him to set an alarm on his phone and every day to practice naming the things he's grateful for that day.

And I love how he shares how his gratitude practice has changed over time.

Aaron: I do gratitude every day at 10:00 PM. I started with the big things, thankful for family and healthy and happiness. And now I just do things that happen during the day. So just three small things that could have happened during the day that I go back into.

Nancy: And so since practicing that, would you say you're happier? I definitely would say so. Yeah. I've been doing it for about two years now. So at first it was focusing in at 10. And think about your gratitude. But now when I go around just living my normal life, I can appreciate things as I go. Just makes you think more about being grateful for little, the moments.

Nancy: Of course, I couldn't do an episode on what is happy without researching happiness. And so I typed in what is happy into Google and upped popped an article from the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy. All about happiness, which immediately led me to my friend, Andrew Mills, who is a philosophy professor at a local university here in Columbus.

Andrew. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Andrew: Sure. I am a philosophy professor at Otterbein university, which is located in Westerville, Ohio, a suburb of Columbus. I've been teaching there for about 21, 22 years, and I teach undergraduate classes on the history of philosophy, introduction to philosophy, environmental philosophy classes.

A general education class I teach cause it's called happiness and the good life. And that's a course where we serve, they different approaches to happiness and the good life going all the way back to the ancient Greeks. People like Socrates, but up to the modern day people like Martin Luther king and contemporary folks who were working.

Yeah. Living simply environmental approaches as well

Nancy: . So what is happy when you're looking at it from a philosophy standpoint?

Andrew: that's a great question. One question, so that I think about a lot is the distinction between a happy life and a good life. I think a lot of the philosophical literature going all the way back to people like Socrates thought about.

Not so much the psychological state of being happy of feeling. Moment to moment, but about whether one's life is going well. And so is one leading a good life. And a lot of philosophers would try to define what the conditions are for leading a good life. Does a good life require that.

Engage in one's community and be politically active and seek to make the world a better place. Is that what a good life is? Even if doing that might involve long stretches of stress and worry and agitation and states that we might not think of happy because it's hard work. So people like civil, activists might think that they're engaged in the good fight or religious lives. Monastic lives of devotion to God might be seen as good lives, but don't involve the sort of pleasures that many of us think a part of living happily. So I spent a lot of time trying to tease that apart and the other side.

What we think of as being like states of psychological happiness of just what a good feeling might accompany lives that we think are from a, I dunno, moral point of view, pretty miserable, right? Because you're acting in rapacious, evil, horrible ways in order to surround yourself with luxuries and fancy food and find wine and all the rest of it.

So that's one thing I try to do is tease apart that psychological state feeling well from living a good life. Not that the two can't go together.

Nancy: So as I was talking with Andrew, I had this aha around. Wow. So many of us, when we think about happiness or what is happy or achieving happy. So often we think about this feeling of permanent happiness that I will achieve a state of happy or a common refrain.

I hear my clients talk about a lot is and myself as well. I should be happy. What's wrong with me. I should be happy as if it is a permanent space. That we can achieve. And what was so fascinating in this conversation with Andrew was pulling apart those two concepts of happy as a psychological state and a good life.

And what does that mean? Having a good life? So

Andrew: that's another way you could think about happiness in this hedonistic. He don't, ya are just the Greek word for pleasure. So the momentary pleasures, and you might think are you happy right now? No, I just stubbed my toe. I just dropped a brick on my foot.

Of course I'm in lots of pain. Which is the opposite of happiness. But then. People say let's pull back. Don't just think about this immediate second where you're suffering pain, but look at your life. How's it going this week or this month or this year? How's your life been altogether? And you think less about the stub toes and more.

Do I have a relative balance of pleasure over pain as my life been mostly pleasant with, moments of grief or sorrow or sadness. And so sometimes people, when they think about happy. Encourage us to think more broadly, not about today, but about this year or this period of my life. The hedonism is a really interesting view.

I was just teaching this last week that the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus we got our term Epicurean. He was an advocate. Hedonism. He sought the good life is a life filled with pleasure, the best life, not just psychologically best, but like morally best. The best way to live your life is to feel it with as much pleasure as possible.

But he understood pleasure in this really interesting way. He didn't understand pleasure as the states of excitation. It wasn't orgasms and massages and what it's like to have the best chocolate cake you've ever had. Every philosopher who teaches hedonism has to spend like 10 minutes. Saying, here's what you understand by hedonism because you're a person who lives in the 21st century and here's how philosophers understand hedonism.

And I use this, I found this there's some resort in the Caribbean. Maybe that's called hedonism too. And it's like clothes optional, like very, sybaritic kind of. Party resort place. And I just offer this up and say this is not what philosophers mean by hedonism for Epicurus. The state of pleasure was a state of, he called it Arthur Roxy was the Greek term contentment and not being troubled.

And so for him, pain is a deficit you're hungry or you're too cold or you're thirsty, or your leg hurts. And so pleasure is a state of. Suffering any of that stuff. So how do you get pleasure? Look around what pains do you have? What hungers or thirsts or aches or mental worries or agitation or stress or anxiety.

And then pleasure is a state of that. And can you get to the state where you're not hungry? You're not thirsty, you're not cold. You're not worried. You're not agitated. And then, and so it's not, if you're hungry, what you need is food. You don't need expensive food, you just need grass. And if you're thirsty, you just, a glass of water is fine.

You don't need to find the fanciest bottle of wine and you just need some water. And so for him, that opened up a whole avenue to saying the good life is actually the pretty simple life. You just need a few things to be in that state of contentment. You need shelter and you need friends and you need food, but you don't need fancy.

And in fact, the struggle for fancy causes all kinds of stress because we've got to work really hard to afford all the fancy stuff and to pay for the new house and the yacht and the bottles of wine. And so in the end of the day, it's not worth the price. So it was interesting, like he's thought about pleasure psychologically, opened up a kind of view about here's what the good life is.

Exactly. You don't need that much to live in a state of contentment or what you need is pretty easy to access for most people. But nowadays of course, we have this term Epicurean and there's like magazines have that term and that, or there's a person I described as a real Epicurean and it's a misunderstanding or just a different understanding of Epicurus his own view.

It's not fancy. It's not high end. It's not. Lobster Thermidor, if you are satisfied with the, not just the bare necessities, but the sort of simple, the simple life. Yeah. And, there's all kinds of social benefits to the ad, right? We're not all fighting with each other to get the fancy stuff and trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Life gets a little easier maybe if, from that point of view, if you're that kind of hedonism is hard. If what you want is excitement and, I dunno, orgasmic kind of all the time, like the thrill seeking, understanding of happiness, like that's hard because there aren't enough roller coasters in the world.

To help you get to that next thrill.

Nancy: So of course, this got me thinking about my own model and the ideas I have around the characters in our head and the monger and the BFF and the biggest fan and how for many people that I work with and myself included was the struggle of the lack of drama that comes when you are listening to the biggest.

That lack of excitement that Andrew is talking about. That biggest fan voice is the voice of simple living of looking back and seeing the good life. And we have been sold this idea that it needs to be dramatic and fun and exciting. And that idea that happy will get us there. And that is the lie.

The myth that our monger comes in to say, you should be happy. What's your purpose? And the BFF brings in that hedonistic, our traditional sense of what we think hedonism is that's the voice of the BFF. And it is so much more exciting to live in that place. It's also so much more painful, so much more exhausting, so much more drama filled and so much more conflict filled.

And when we can find that ease and that place of the biggest fan, we can find that simple life that Epicurus is talking. What also struck me about Epicurus is our tendency, as humans is to simplify everything down Epicurus means avoid pain and find simple pleasures. So looking at that, we tend to simplify everything down, but in reality, it's so much deeper than that.

It's so much more nuanced. And so we can find that richness in the nuance of it. After I hung up the conversation with Andrew, I was thinking about grief and how that is the ultimate thing that all of us have to go through the death of a loved one, and that can hurt our happiness because we're in grief.

And so I was curious on how Epicurus dealt with that. Andrew had suggested that I look up some of Epicureans teachings. And so I of course, went into Google again. And in his bat, a can saying number 66, he talks about let us show feeling for our friends who have died, not by lamenting, but by reflection, grieving that engages with our memories of the deceased in a positive way, can lead us to a greater appreciation of how they enriched our lives and the lives of others.

Such positively focused reflection. Albeit inevitably tinge with sadness should help us remember them with pleasure. It may even help us discover in ourselves a more mature attitude towards the inevitability of death. This is surely a positive, not a negative experience. What struck me about that is a, Epicurus believed that we're all going to die.

It's inevitable, nothing you can do about it. So you might as well accepted. And they also had the idea that if you're grieving one way to deal with that grief and to accept it is to be thinking of the memories of the person that you love and talk about them and keep them alive with their memories.

Which brings me to my next definition of what is happy by my dear friend and who I call my second mother? Yeah.

What is happy to you, Norma?

Norma: Happy to me. He is when the people around me that I love my family, my extended family, when everything is good with them, when they're achieving or they're not, but we're all sticking together and sharing it makes me happy.

It's what I need in my life. To have people that I love that much. And then I know they love me that much.

Nancy: And is this something that you experienced in memories of connecting with them or does it have to be face-to-face happening?

Norma: No, it's since the moment I knew them or even before I knew them because they weren't born yet.

It's just remembering and having those memories that I can tune into now at this age in particular, I'm doing a lot of sitting by myself and I can sit and think about all the fun times and everything. And it makes me happy.

Nancy: And as you can hear at the end and of that conversation, she was getting a phone call from one of those people that are so near and dear to her heart.

And I love the idea of Epicurus because as I said before, it reminds me so much of the biggest fan. And to me, it is the biggest fan. And yet, if there's anything this past year has taught me, it is the power of privilege and how it can keep us warped in happy. And how it's that definition of.

Happiness and simple pleasures isn't available to everyone. And so I asked Andrew about that and we got into this idea of what's. What else is there in the philosophy world that addresses those ideas of social justice?

Andrew: It's interesting. I was talking about that with my students. Cause he, again, he was, he didn't think a lot about justice, but he did think that for one, there's a reason, self interestedly for you to be just because the, if you don't commit crimes, his thought was, you're not afraid of being caught.

And so you're not wrapped with guilt of being apprehended, but of course, we live in a world where people get killed. Or are accused of doing things because of the way they look or because of their social position, that they didn't do anything, but they're apprehended by the police. And so they're people who live in all kinds of fear for their lives and they can't get away from that fear if simply by not doing the crimes because they're right.

You look this way and so the police bring you in. And so it was interesting that if you think that's happening in the world, Which I think it is, then you've got a motivation to maybe fix the world to enable all those people to live without fear. If we can get rid of the injustices in the world that will allow other people to, live without the constant fear of their oppression or getting arrested for something they didn't do or being attacked by folks.

So the social justice piece is hard for someone like Epicurus. Yeah. Philosopher John Stuart mill. He was this Victorian English philosopher. He also built was a hedonist in different sense from Epicurus, but he was a big social justice campaigner. And his thought was our goal in life is to produce as much pleasure as possible, not just for ourselves.

For everyone, right? Let's make society full of people who are happy. And so that you can see if that's your goal that motivates social justice. Let's make life better for people. And whether that's welfare state stuff, whether that's correcting unjust political systems, whether that's dealing with them.

Poverty, let's do things to make the lives of people as pleasant as possible. Not just egoistically, I'm going to get as much pleasure for me. If I can. Some of the social justice folks have that motivation, there's people suffering and let's fix the world. So those people don't have so much pain in their lives anymore.

Nancy: So the idea that happiness is not only about the simple pleasures and the good life and looking at your life from a whole. But it's also about getting out of your own selfishness and seeing the world through other people's eyes and seeing what is happening for other people and how can we all be achieving happiness together.

And I think that is such a great way of thinking about it. That gets us out of our own process, which is so often what happens in psychology and especially so often for those of us with anxiety, we really get stuck in our own heads and in our own processes. And so being able to think about, yeah, What is happy for other people and how can I help them achieve that level of happiness and myself?

How can I level the playing field so that we all are looking at this good life and able to achieve the good life, whatever that means for each of us individually. And so now I'm going to share what my mom said in her definition of what is happy.

What is happy to you, mom?

Jane: having my family come. Any reason, but to celebrate today, we had a get together and it was a great time of sharing around the dining room table.

It's also happy to me that I can be here in my own home and sit on my breezeway and read in peace and quiet.

I appreciate how my mom brought in two things that make her happy or the, her definition of happy. And I think this fits for a lot of us, it's obviously more than just one thing, but the idea of having connection and family and gathering together, and then the idea of having alone time and having space to, to read and do the things that bring us joy in our own brains in our own time.

And I think being able to be able to tap in and tap out of togetherness and being alone and togetherness and being alone. I think for a lot of us, that is a true essence of happy. It's a much more complicated answer than just one thing. This is what happened. And there are definitely times I'm sure for my mom that when she's sitting outside in her beautiful home, she wishes she was someplace else or she wishes she was doing other things.

That's what I loved about Epicurus as Andrew was talking about him was the idea that it's looking across your whole life. It's looking at what is the good life overall for me? How can I achieve that level of happy? When I look back on my life and I see my life as well. And how can I manage the times where it's tough and hard and I'm struggling, as Andrew said, I stubbed my toe or I've, just really my anxiety is through the roof.

How can I manage these times in an appropriate, positive, helpful way, and give myself that grace and kindness that will get me through this. Okay. So here's my last interview with my nephew Parker. Who's in his mid twenties on what his definition of happy is.

Parker: I'd say my, definition of happy kind as a two-prong I find it in two areas of my life, I'd say, and what I'm creating and making something just active.

Generating something from my myself and getting to know myself more. So the self-actualization of sorts as well as from connection with other people, is really the theme is connection in a lot of ways. And I feel connected to myself or to others. That's happiness to me. You're right where you need to be.

Nancy: So how often do you experience that? It's something we say we want, but it's not a state we can keep.

Parker: Yeah. I think that I experienced. I guess rarely it's not a sustained state. I can picture the moments when I'm happy, but typically these moments are fleeting or I never realized that I'm happy in that moment.

It's right afterwards. I'm like, I'm happy. And then you just settle with it and you're calm.

Nancy: And so Parker reminds us that it isn't a permanent state, but it isn't something you can achieve and you have figured out how to be happy. It's something we will continually be striving for and looking for, unless you go back and look at the big picture of you as a Paris talks about and what is a good life.

And then we can take a deeper look at that, covering what John Stuart mill says, how I can help other people achieve that as well. So getting out of our own way, I hope that in this episode, you got to think about happy in a different, more nuanced way. When I talk with my family, they had common answers, what struck me the most about it was the simplicity to bring it back to Epicurus the simple pleasures.

And when I think about the answers my family had, they were relatively simple answers. And I think we have two beliefs about happy that we know are wrong, but we insist on believing or at least our Mongo convinces us. We should keep believing. One that is a permanent state of being and two, that it is something complex and out of reach as if we really have to struggle to find that.

Our Monger keeps those beliefs alive. She encourages us to keep pushing because once we achieve, she tells us we'll be happy. And then our BFF steps in to tell us we can only achieve happiness through hedonism, the typical traditional sense of hedonism, like going to hedonism to, for example, when in reality, the real happy comes in that drama free nuanced form of our biggest fan, the place that says, Hey, sweet pea. How you doing today? That's where real happiness lies. So we will continue the quest. We will continue the conversation on what is happy. And I'd love to hear from you. Let me know how you would answer that question. What is happy to you?

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Episode 155: Experimenting with Meditation and Mindfulness - Part 1

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Sean McMullin, the producer of this podcast, to talk about experimenting with meditation and mindfulness. 

To hear how the experiment went: Listen to Part 2

I don’t have a meditation practice of my own. 

In fact, I’m pretty resistant to it. I have a lot of rules around meditation and I’m pretty rigid in how I think about it. 

But, with all the stress in the world recently and my own anxiety, I thought it might be helpful to revisit meditation. 

Meditation, after all, puts our anxiety front and center. It encourages us to make space for it so that we can soften our feelings of anxiousness and stress. Maybe it could help? 

That’s why I decided that doing an experiment would be a lighthearted and fun way to reintroduce meditation back into my life. Plus, it would be a space for play and exploration rather than rules. 

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Sean McMullin of Yellow House Media, who is the producer of this podcast, to talk about experimenting with meditation and mindfulness. 

Sean’s been practicing meditation for nine months at the time of recording and is light years ahead of me—and he also understands my blocks and resistance to meditation.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The moment when Nancy realized that she needed to start adding meditation into her morning routine

• Sean’s experience with daily meditation plus how long his meditations were when he first started and how long they are today

• Nancy and Sean explore the reasons behind why people meditate, why they don’t, and common expectations (like meditation is going to make everything easier in life)

• How people with high functioning anxiety might struggle with establishing a daily meditation habit and what to do about it

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: If you've listened to me for awhile, I do not have a meditation practice of my own, but recently with all the stress in the world and my own anxiety, I thought it might be helpful to revisit meditation. Not surprisingly. I have a lot of rules around meditation and I'm pretty rigid in my thinking about it, which is why.

Maybe doing an experiment would be a good way to reintroduce meditation into my life. I wanted to talk to an expert in meditation and fortunately the producer of this podcast, Sean McMillan has been practicing meditation for nine months. He would not call himself an expert, but he is light years ahead of me and is also someone who really understands my blocks and resistance to meditation.

So following is our very casual conversation around meditation and how I'm approaching this meditation experiment. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

So today I'm reversing the roles here and I'm bringing on my friend, Sean, who also happens to be the producer of the happier approach who is going to be talking me through this new thing. I'm working on this meditation experiment. Hey, Sean, tell the audience a little bit about yourself.

Sean: Hello audience.

You've asked me on because we've decided to do, you've decided to do an experiment, a meditation experiment, and we're going to talk about it because I have a daily meditation practice. And I'm curious why you don't, because I feel pretty strongly about meditation and

Nancy: People that do it, do feel very strongly about it, why I'm interested in doing the experiment, but I have also been very anti, not anti meditation because I know for those that do it, it's very powerful.

I've not been able to start my own practice. And so I've been anti it for myself even this morning, as I was doing my morning routine. And right now, as we're recording this, we're in the crazy pre-election time. And Trump is hospitalized with COVID and there's a lot going on, but that doesn't mean I need to be obsessive early.

I'm checking Twitter at seven o'clock in the morning. While I'm making my coffee, just to see if there's any news updates. And I noticed this morning, I couldn't put it right. Like I couldn't put my phone down. I was checking email. I was checking Twitter and I was like, this is why you need to be doing a meditation or mindfulness practice.

I don't have any time where I just have space in my brain to be. And I'm hoping that the meditation practice can help me do that. And meditation is like that. If I could only practice meditation, then yeah, I will be totally fine. As if that's the one thing I need to do and then everything will be okay.

And so I want to. To demystify that. Cause I don't really believe that. And so that's why I wanted to talk to you. Cause I know you have meditation practice and you are open to discussing that and walking through what it has done for you and why it's a powerful practice.

Sean: Do you want me to tell why I've only been meditating daily. I'm going to guess nine months. Okay. Long time. And then additionally, like I, I have my meditation app and it tells me what my. Streak is and for good and for bad, I'm not a completionist.

So if I miss a day, which I don't feel bad about myself and I

Nancy: You don't have high functioning anxiety.

Sean: No, I do not. I have anxiety, but I don't have high functioning anxiety. That's a hundred percent for starters. I a hundred percent, except that I am a meditation novice. And that everything that I say is based upon my own experience and that there is always the very exciting reality that there is so much to learn and that I'm just a child when it comes to these things.

Nancy: But that's why I wanted to have you on, because I think many of my listeners. Our pre-child to this. And so to them, you are, and to me, you are an expert because you've been doing it for nine months, inconsistently, perhaps, but still longer than I've ever been able to manage.

Sean: I have, I have attempted it many times over my life.

And when I lived out in Oregon, there was at a Buddhist monastery near us and they had every Sunday they'd have like open house and you'd go and you could meditate with them. And I did that. I did it a few times. And that was really interesting. It was interesting. They did a lot of moving meditation where they actually walked there was like this, there was a space that they walked.

Yeah. There was some chanting involved too, but it never really stuck. What happened was about turn of the year, last year. I a few things happened this coming up in November, I'm three years sober and yeah. Big deal. And so that process of becoming so. And has given me space to become more mindful of who I am, what I do.

I now approach life with way more intention. I don't feel quite so I just have way more space and it's wonderful. There were a lot of things that sort of became revealed to me that I think that I could ignore because I was just intoxicated, like my level of anxiety on a daily basis. And so then about nine, 10 months ago, I had, I started having panic attacks and anxiety is so irrational.

I was like, I need to do something about this. I need to get serious about this. Backed off coffee, that kind of thing. I got on medication, but I also started my meditation practice. And when I first started, I'm not even joking. It was three times a day. I was meditating.

Nancy: Wow. How long would each time be?

Sean: When I first started, it was like 10 minutes. Wow. That sounded like now my daily is 20, which is great. Okay. And then I'm actually going to like, try to increase it to the 45 minutes to an hour, but not on a daily basis because one of the, one of the things that I ran into and I would imagine a lot of people listening run into is this idea that there's a right way and a wrong way to do it.

And that you have to go all in and you have to. Become a meditator.

Nancy: You're speaking my language. That is exactly what I feel.

Sean: But the truth is that, I would imagine that there are benefits from doing, there's a scientifically proven that at a certain period of time, that's the most beneficial make the time. And, but even if you just stop and take 10 deep breaths, Even that is a big deal that in of itself when you stop and you say to yourself, into your mind, just quit for a second.

And yeah, so that's how I started. And it was a really big deal for me because like I said, I was in just like breakdown, panic mode. And when I started out my back was really hurting. And so I would lay down. And I'd meditate laying down, which is still one, which is still one of my favorite ways to meditate.

And although I don't do it very often because I tend to fall asleep. I started using the app Headspace and it's, they've been really great. And they add a particular module on anxiety where they, they talk about anxiety and what it isn't. How to approach it. And I did that for their sessions that they had for those, I think, I can't remember how many they were and then it just, I don't know if it was like that or a combination of other things, but like having made the decision to start meditating, I started seeing everything just become more manageable and I started looking forward.

To meditation every day where it gave me something to look forward to where I knew had solemn. It's just so nice to be able to have a time of the day, whether you don't have anything to do, except for what you're just sitting there. And imagine people with high functioning, what am I talking about?

I know people with high functioning anxiety. Really find that challenging

Nancy: because I'm like, that sounds like hell to me.

Sean: So regardless of whether or not you have high functioning anxiety or not modern society tells us that we are constantly have to be doing something going on.

Exactly. And that if we sit and do nothing, we are lazy. We are worthless. We are, our life does not have purpose action has to be happening, but I also think the way a lot of people approach meditation, they bring that baggage. With them to their meditation practice, where this has to be productive. This has to produce results.

This has to be quantifiable. You know what I'm saying?

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I totally know what you're saying. Yeah. I know what you're saying. So that was why. You've heard this story before, but I went to a training on meditation by Ron Siegel. And we're going to put the video, not of my training, but of a training he did at Google in the show notes.

It was a full day training and I was dreading it, cause I have this thing about meditation and we did the meditation. I think it was 10 minutes. And he was like, if you didn't experience this as puppy. Like puppies that you were trying to gather in then you weren't doing it because that your thoughts are like puppies that are constantly rambling and that's how it should be.

It should be uncomfortable. It should be, like you're constantly trying to wrangle as you're new at this. And he went on to say the Jon Kabat Zinn, who did great things by bringing meditation into the. Medical community and really did some studies around it, but he sold it as a stress reliever.

And he said, meditation is not, that's not the end goal to relieve stress. The end goal is to separate out you from your thoughts. So to recognize that there are these things happening all the time, and to put some space between you and them. Is the goal. And I can remember at the time that really resonating with me of, oh, that's doable.

That is an end goal that I can see. I remember years ago I downloaded Deepak Chopra, did a series, meditate every day for 30 days. I think he might still do it. And. Maybe 10 minutes. And I don't think I got through any of them for 10 minutes. It was too intense, too long. I can remember looking up after a minute, after two minutes after five minutes with so much anxiety around, am I doing this right?

Is this going okay? Am I, I start relieving my stress. And my experience with meditation. That sounds stressful. Yes. And that was years ago that I took that class. It's taken me this long to recognize, okay. I want to go into this experiment being loose, as loose as I can about. My expectations and what the rules are and what this has to be like.

Even as we sat down to start this conversation, I said to Sean, okay I just read that it's 45 minutes is what the studies have shown that really gives you the best results. So I should do it for 45 minutes every day. Okay. And that is like an impossible. I just said I can barely do it for 10. And now suddenly I'm going to be able to do it for 45.

Come on, welcome to my brain. So what's the difference in your mind between meditation and mindfulness?

Sean: Ugh. I don't know. I've been thinking about this though. Like we can talk through this because I think that meditation. Is one tool for developing mindfulness. I would agree. That's meditation.

Isn't mindfulness and vice versa.

Nancy: Is that what you're saying?

Sean: I just don't think that there's the same thing. And I think that there are many ways to obtain greater levels of mindfulness. And I think that meditation is one. Tool that you can use to work towards that. And I'd love to hear actually, when we're go ahead.

Nancy: So mindfulness is the larger umbrella and meditation is one avenue to mindfulness.

Sean: Okay. Like I, I love the metaphor of a toolbox. If you have your mindfulness toolbox, we have okay, now we have a few of them. There's walking your dog. There's, I'm looking for the color blue. There's smiling to people.

When you walk down the streets, there's things that are bringing you into. Where you're being more mindful of your act of your actions. And I would say that meant that meditation and even meditation, the probably has different skillsets and different modes underneath it. There are different ways to meditate.

And I would say that those are another set of tools within your toolbox of a greater mindfulness. Does that, do you agree with that?

Nancy: I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that

Sean: . So mindful, right. Meditation being a tool for developing mindfulness. I liked the eye and I like that mindfulness becomes an expands out into the rest of my life.

And that I would say that for starters, I've been pursuing mindfulness in some way or another for most of my life. But when I intentionally make time and space for it, because I'm looking forward to it, I would say that it does expand out into the rest of my life. And I've learned how to identify that.

Why am I rushing from place to place in my head? I'm like, just slow down, just do a little stretch real fast.

Nancy: Why this is coming up for me now, because I was better about mindful. Before COVID when I was out in the world and would have those moments of recognizing just slow down, like I be in the car and I would just be in the car and looking at the clouds, as much as you can safety wise, or if I notice myself rushing from thing to thing, I would do that.

But in the house, Not having that separation between work and personal life and having everything be all muddled. I have less and less of that. And I think that's a reason this is coming up for me more. I need some space in my brain that I've don't have because everything is so muddled together right now.

Sean: So how are you planning on approaching. This experiment

Nancy: years ago when I was practicing I had to get all the accoutrement to do the meditation. So I was thinking today in preparation for this conversation. So I was going to set up a meditation corner and I had that cushion and then the little back support thing.

So I was like, oh, I should get that all set up. So I walked the dog every morning and that is like my. My favorite time of the day. Like I absolutely love it. And it used to be that I guarded it, no podcasts, no listening to music. It was just me and the dog. And then lately I don't have time to listen to podcasts because I'm not leaving the house as much, so I need to get some podcasts done.

And so it has become, let me be more productive with this dog walking time. And. So that is something I think you had mentioned, like even going on a walk and that you would look for the color red, or you look for the color yellow, or you have a practice that brings you back into the space. And so I would love to hear more about that.

So I think it would be cool to see, to ease into it, to have that dog walking time, be the beginning where I'm doing a minor. Practice as I'm walking the dog. And then when we get back in the house to take 10 minutes and do a meditation app where I'm just sitting in the house somewhere doing that.

So that's my loose plan.

Sean: That sounds great.

Nancy: Oh, cool. I needed your approval on,

Sean: It's a good starting place, right? Because. Immediately it's manageable. It's doable. You're going to enjoy it. Yeah. If someone would be setting themselves up for some level of failure, if they are trying to force something on themselves that they don't even enjoy on some level.

So you're talking about how I go on walks and I'll go looking for a particular color. Or I go looking for padlocks, or I only walked down ways or I look at chimneys. Oh. And lightening rods. I go out looking for lightning rods. So what it does is it's just taking me out of my head and it's bringing me into my body.

It's bringing him into my space and this is mindfulness. This is a fun. Version of it, right? Because you're doing these field trips. You don't have to focus on breathing. You don't have to pretend you don't have to try to be Buddha, but I would say highly important to what you're saying is don't look at your phone, turn it off.

Yeah. But a resource that I recommend for this is Rob Walker's book, the art of noticing and emails. Yeah. I think that, I think I recommended them. He does these weekly icebreaker things. So they're fun, but he's particularly with with the pandemic. He's been really talking a lot about how, what we can do just within our neighborhoods without having to travel far distances, how we can engage and enjoy our neighborhoods.

But the subtitle of this book is 131 ways to spark creativity, find inspiration to discover joy in the everyday God. He was the one who inspired me to go looking for a color. I would say. Try, I would say, start with your dog, but I recommend at some point go in, without your dog

Nancy: Ah, that's a good idea.

Yeah. Yeah. That would be non-productive

Sean: exactly.

Because with your dog, you are giving yourself that excuse because isn't going out and taking a walk for yourself enough?

Nancy: You would think? yeah, even as you said that my first thought was, oh, that makes sense. And I was like, oh my gosh, when would I possibly find time to do that?

Which dude, it's not like I'm booked, 24, 7 or even 12 hours a day. I could definitely find time. To do it. It was just me taking the time to do it. But yeah, absolutely.

Sean: So I'll often do that in the middle of the day. So I'll do a quick lunch and then I grab an apple and then I take a walk and I find that actually middle of the day is a really good time.

Because you're awake in your alerts. Yeah. To talk about like the sitting meditation. So I do sit in meditation, I have my cushion and you have your cushion. I love my cushion. Like I have right there on the floor and people trip over it. When they walk into my room, I have put it like smack dab.

In the middle of the floor of my office and it doesn't move. It's not in the corner. It's not, it doesn't have a special space. It sits there and it demands attention.

I was going to say, you were talking about. The puppy metaphor, the Headspace people use the blue sky metaphor where, you're trying to obtain that blue sky where you don't have any of the worries and thoughts going by.

But the truth is that the sky constantly has clouds going past it. I'm on the other side of it. Yeah. The blue sky. And when we're having these thoughts, the feelings come into our minds. Our first reaction is to resist them and we want to push them away and get rid of them as opposed to what they've recommended and what I've learned to do.

And this is like very valuable it beginning practice is what's called recognizing where you are. You literally in your mind say that's a thought and it feels like this. Or not even that it feels like that's a thought and it's a negative thought or it's a positive thought, and then you identify it and then you go back to, we are breathing or your visualization or whatever it is.

And then when the next one comes, you do the same thing. And it's not about pushing them away ever. It's about just, okay. There it is. And now. I'm just going to let it go and moving back to your focus and to send to the anxiety stuff. And you can definitely do this when you're walking is that we get so wrapped up in thinking that our thoughts and our feelings are us, as opposed to something that we're experiencing. And so when we identify these things as this, instead of saying, I am sad, you can say, I am experiencing sad. I love that. Yeah. To identify our thoughts and their feelings is something that we're experiencing as opposed to who we are. And for me, that's what had been one of the, when we talk about the results, I would say that's one of the biggest results because that, it's always work, but I don't always successfully do this, but I can generally achieve this experience where I can say, oh, that's, I'm experiencing something right now.

And I can just be with it. I don't have to do anything. And just it's there and immediately makes it so much better when I don't identify it as me.

Nancy: Yeah. Because I think partially why I'm more interested in this, in the idea of meditation now, why it's coming up is because before I did the happier approach and did you know, acknowledging your feelings and getting into your body before I had the ask philosophy, practicing ask is my baby step to be like, oh, you aren't your feelings.

You aren't your thoughts. Let's be curious about who you are as a person, as opposed to just treating yourself like a machine that needs to be harnessing your best potential. And I think to have that reminder to myself, I have taken some steps towards mindfulness in comparatively to even when I went to the wrong seat.

Conference I was talking about, but my next step is I need to do it more intentionally for longer periods of time. And so that was another reason why this seems intriguing to me to actually have a practice. Yes.

Sean: So would you say that's what this experiment is feeling out what your personal practice would be?

Nancy: Definitely. Yeah. Cause I feel like I've railed against it for so long. It's become a thing. That I rail against it more so than it's worth railing against. And so I'm ha let's put down my ego for a minute about how I don't meditate. You don't have to meditate to deal with your anxiety and be like, okay, all these people are saying, this is really beneficial.

So let's put down that you go and practice and see. How to make this your own and it doesn't have to be, oh, which is a strong pull for me. Obviously it doesn't have to be the here's the 45 minute session. And I'm going to sit in the Lotus with my. Legs crossed applesauce and be all, Zen for 45 minutes.

That's I, that is not necessarily going to happen. It may happen a day or two, or I may be into that, but I don't have to be rigid about my practice. And even that. Is new to me, not to have to be rigid about it, but to figure out how to make it mine. Yeah. I want to look at it as this is the next step of exploring my internal world and I've spent most of my life looking outside for the answers and I realized that, okay, it's not that all the answers to life's mysteries are inside me, but I think that.

Navigating life would be easier if I had a little more awareness of what's happening inside my brain and body,

Sean: I feel like life becomes richer. Yeah.

Nancy: That's the word? It is richer. Not easier richer.

Sean: Yeah. And I think that misunderstanding. Meditation is going to make life easier. And then when it doesn't causes a lot of people who have tried, it feels strife.

They feel like why isn't this working?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. Cause I think that is that is a key difference.

Sean: It might not make things easier, but I feel like it does make it better and more manageable for me because things are still hard, yeah. But I feel less panicky about it and I feel like there's something I know that I can do.

And I know that's a thing that appeal to a lot of listeners. I think having something neat that when you feel out of control and it's just oh shit, I can't believe this. That you actually have a tool that you can fall back on.

Nancy: And a grounding within yourself to no pull into, I keep thinking of that.

But I think lately I've been missing that connection with myself because I have been so externally focused because of COVID and everything that's happening in our world and have pulled up some of my negative coping strategies. To deal with that. You have gone back into my defaults and I want to reset that.

And this is a way of doing that. That's a fun light-hearted. I can think of it as an experiment and pull back some of that rigid rigidness.

Sean: And for me, I think. For me and my personal brand of mindfulness is to look at everything it is happening to us with as an opportunity. This is, we don't learn anything, just living in easy beige colored life.

We just don't know challenges, difficulties. This is an opportunity for us to grow. And if we don't have those opportunities and it's, difficult things suck, but I think that we can appoint you approach them with a little as a word to joy Levine. And I just be like, all right.

All right. Life, let's bring it on. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, definitely. I think because I think when we're not so focused on. I got to get to the DMV and get to the next thing. So I can check this off the list and be like, this is where I am, I'm at the DMV. So I might as well make this the best experience it can be.

My dad always makes me laugh. He used to play the game, walking down the street which I didn't know this. And my dad was like, business suit, super gruff looking guy. He would see how many people he could get to talk to him and he would, so you'd greet everyone down the street and see if he could get them to smile and talk with him.

And I was like, wow, that is totally, did not expect that from my dad. What a fun little game, and it's a way to bring you back to center.

Sean: My stepdaughter and I, and my wife were walking down the street the other day and we, and I got my stepdaughter to play a game where we were looking for things that were odd.

And then we were rating them on a scale of odd. And then. And it was so fun. Cause she's 12 and I'd be like, look at that. That's pretty odd. She's oh no, that's not odd enough that doesn't make the cut.

Nancy: That's awesome.

Sean: So you're playing. Is you're going to wait a month to start off with how long a month I can do a month. Yeah, I have a hundred percent. You're going to do it out of just sheer stubbornness at this point.

Nancy: Oh, Hells to the, yeah. And this is it. That's partly why I wanted to declare it so that I could be like, I know I have it here.

It is. It's declared. I'm doing a meditation experiment now. I can't back out. And I'm going to report back in a month and share how it went and it, and that doesn't mean it's going to be like, oh, and it went amazingly and I've totally changed person. It's going to be my struggle with how it went or the ups and downs.

And I think that's how I'm approaching it differently this time than how I have in the past, where in the past it would have been like, and so in a month, I'll come back and share with you how it's been amazing. And I've a totally changed person. And. Cause I wouldn't want to show that it didn't go well.

And now I can be like, I'm open to where it's going to go and what my sticky points are going to be and the experiment.

Sean: Yeah. I love that. Because with an experiment, you can't go into an experiment knowing what's going to happen because then it's not an experiment. Do you intend on exploring different modes of meditation or do you intend on doing the one year to start there?

Are you open to changing and trying other things? Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. And so when you say other. Modalities of meditation. What would that be? Where would I find those? Do you have any

Sean: I use the Headspace app. One of the things that's nice about it is every meditation that they have.

So they have like their daily that they provide, which is, you never know what it's going to be, but it's typically they'll have some sort of discussion on a topic. I don't know, a couple of minutes before you start meditating. And then the system of the guided meditation is consistently the same and it's breath.

It's breathing based. Okay. And what's nice about them is that you can, there's a slider where you can choose anywhere from five minutes, 20 minutes as you actually choose the length of the meditation based upon. Okay. And I, one of the things I like about them is that it's not, it's pretty poppy and it's very accessible.

But when I say other modes, there's also visualization, so there's breath based, but then there's visualization based. Or things like you S you have a some light growing in your chest that expands out into your body. And then it starts expanding out into the room. I struggle with visualization visualizations.

I am not good at them. So even this morning as I was meditating, I know that I'm not supposed to use this language, but I was failing as a meditator this morning. I was thinking about this interview. I was thinking this conversation. I was thinking about all the things I had to do for work, but I have reached this point.

Then when I find myself quote, unquote, failing as a meditator, I actually laugh at myself because I actually laughed out loud, sitting there meditating. I laughed to myself and then I go back to my brain. And that is, that's a huge accomplishment that I've gotten there. Other modes of meditation are moving meditation and that's where like even Headspace has these, where they have walking meditations, where you do put your headphones on, you listen to a specific meditation and you go out and take a walk, listening to it.

I haven't done it yet, but they have the whole thing. Oh, wow. Okay. That might be something really valuable for you to try out. Yeah. And they also have like sleeping meditation. So the middle of the night you wake up, will you put it on and they bring you to a different place. I'm really, I really dig what they do.

And I know that there are many other ones, it was just the first one that I chose when I was in a place of desperation. But those are the, those are some of the. I'm that I'm familiar with. And I'm I thinking that there's a lot of other modes modalities. Okay. Can I give you one piece of advice though, for starting off with your don't do this sitting down on the cushion thing.

Okay. Find yourself a good upright chair, like a kitchen table chair with a back. Okay. And set up right. Ground your feet, hands in your lap. And don't put too many barriers up at first because a lot of us, our bodies don't like to sit on the ground. And I would say, grow, graduate into that, but just sitting upright in a chair.

is just such a good way to meditate. So in a month or so I'm looking forward to hearing what comes of

Nancy: this. Yeah, me too. I'm definitely looking forward to it. I think it'll be fun.

Sean: Are we going to, are we going to touch bases on our follow-up to this episode?

Nancy: Yeah, definitely. Thanks Sean.

Sean: You bet ya.

Nancy: I appreciate all your insight and your help. You made it so much more approachable. I was already feeling that it was approachable, but just walking through the different ways you've done it and how it's helped you and challenging me on my own biases around it has been helped.

Sean: Good. I'm glad to hear that as always

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Episode 154: How to Be the Caretaker of Your Own Radical Personal Empowerment and Self-Love

In this episode, I’m talking with Amy E. Smith, a certified confidence coach, speaker, and personal empowerment expert about people-pleasing.

How often are you apologizing, regardless if you hurt someone or if the situation truly necessitated an “I’m sorry”? 

People-pleasing includes a lot of apologizing, and it doesn’t always express what we really mean which, sometimes, isn’t so much I’m sorry as it is I’m so thankful. 

I used to say I’m so sorry all the time. I’d apologize for everything—even when it’s not really what I meant. Here’s an example from my own life. When I published my book, The Happier Approach, some of my friends and family hosted book parties in their homes. 

One of my dear friends from high school, Renee Mattson who spoke on the podcast about how to avoid passing your anxiety onto your kids (here’s part one and part two), hosted one of these events. She invited me to her house a little early so we could have lunch together. 

When I arrived, Renee realized she’d forgotten to think about lunch. As she was running around the kitchen, prepping leftovers, I started to feel bad. She went into all this trouble—hosting an event for me—and now she’s serving me lunch! 

My Monger was having a field day with this. As the words “I’m so sorry you had to make me lunch” came out of my mouth, I caught myself and simply said: “Thank you so much for making lunch. I know it wasn’t easy and I really appreciate it.” Renee’s face lit up and she said, “you are so welcome, I’m so glad you came early. I know it’s just leftovers but it gives us a chance to talk and catch up.” 

In that moment, I realized that by saying thank you—which is what I truly meant—it allowed me to appreciate Renee, allowed her to feel appreciated, and empowered both of us. Had I apologized instead and said my 3 favorite words, “I am sorry”, then she would have apologized for throwing together leftovers and all the things that we people pleasers apologize for and we would have both left the conversation feeling disempowered. 

Today on the show, my guest Amy E. Smith and I are talking about people-pleasing and how saying I’m sorry all the time is just one of the ways that people-pleasing shows up in our lives and how it disempowers us and keeps us disconnected from the people in our lives. 

Amy is a certified confidence coach, masterful speaker, and personal empowerment expert. Founder of TheJoyJunkie.com, Amy uses her roles as coach, writer, podcaster, and speaker to move individuals to a place of radical personal empowerment and self-love. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What people-pleasing is and how you can be a strong, high achiever and still be a people pleaser (raising my hand here)

• My own story about people-pleasing that took place at the Brene Brown daring Way training I attended and how I handled it (or didn’t handle it)

• HOW to speak up for yourself and HOW to start building your inner strength around self-loyalty and worthiness.

• Amy’s metaphor for self-worth which is gold

Resources mentioned:

• TheJoyJunkie.com

• Follow Amy on Instagram

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Transcript:

Amy: It's almost if you are going in to try on a new outfit, sometimes you just got to go in the store and just stand there and look at it for a minute. You might not be even ready to try it on yet, but for God's sake, go in the fucking store and you'll get to a point where you wear it with pride and then you start adding some accessories and some heels.

And but we have to start trying it on. So just listening to this going, what is this crazy girl on the internet has something to say. What if I actually could change this belief about myself? You have to start picking it apart.

Nancy: Three little words used to come out of my mouth all the time. I am sorry. I would apologize for everything, whether I hurt someone or not years ago, after I published the happier approach, a few of my friends and family hosted book parties for me in their homes.

One of my dear friends from high school, Renee Mattson, who spoke earlier this year on the podcast about kids and anxiety hosted one of these events. She invited me to her house a little early, so we could have lunch together. And when I arrived, she realized she'd forgotten to think about lunch. So she threw together some leftovers and it turned out to be an amazing lunch as she was running around the kitchen.

I thought to myself, oh my gosh, I feel so bad because she went through all this trouble and she's hosting an event for me. And now she's serving me lunch. Who am I to ask for all these. Of course, my monger was having a field day. And as the words, I'm so sorry, you had to make me lunch, started to come out of my mouth.

I caught myself and I simply said, “thank you for making lunch. I know it wasn't easy. And I really appreciate it.” Her face lit up and she said, “oh my gosh, you are so welcome. I'm so glad you came early. I know it's just leftovers, but it really gives us a chance to talk and catch up.”

I realized that by saying thank you, which is what I truly meant. It allowed me to appreciate her and it allowed her to feel appreciated. And it empowered. Both of us had I apologized and said my three favorite words, I'm sorry. Then she would apologize for throwing together leftovers and all the things that we people pleasers apologize for. And we would have both left the conversation, feeling disempowered today on the show. We're talking about people pleasing and saying, I'm sorry is just one of the many ways people-pleasing shows up in our life.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

On this episode, I'm talking with Amy E Smith, who is a certified confidence coach, masterful speaker and personal empowerment expert. She's founder of the joy junkie.com and she uses her role as a coach writer, podcaster and speaker to move individuals to a place of radical personal empowerment. And self-love, I am so excited for you to hear our conversation because Amy really breaks down this topic in a new and refreshing way.

Keep listening to hear the definition of people-pleasing and how you can be a strong high achiever and still be a people pleaser. Raising my hand over here. My own story about people pleasing that took place at the Brené Brown Daring Way training I attended and how I handled it, or didn't handle it both how to speak up for yourself and how to start building your inner strength around self loyalty and worthiness and Amy's metaphor for self-worth, which is golden.

I am so excited to be here today with Amy Smith, AKA the joy junkie, and we are going to be talking about people pleasing and all things around people, pleasing, specifically, setting boundaries, speaking your needs, all that good stuff. Welcome

Amy: Amy. Thank you for having Nancy. I'm super excited. I love talking about this stuff, so cool.

Nancy: Awesome. Okay. So I want to dive in and let's set the scene. So what exactly is people pleasing?

Amy: This is one of those. Monikers that I think people get tripped up on in the personal development space, because if you are someone who is high achieving, which I know you engage with a lot of people who are that way.

And if you are a very goal oriented and accomplishment, check off the boxes, all of those sorts of things, we tend to have this idea of somebody being a people pleaser as someone who is not very accomplished, who's meek and mild and quiet and get stepped on all the time. And I feel like that's a very shallow view of what a people pleaser really is.

So if you distill it down into what, at least the way in which I teach it is that it's anyone who is so invested in the opinions of other people that they twist and contort their own behavior. So changing how you behave.

So this could be as simple as fretting over what you're going to wear while you're walking your dogs. Because God forbid your neighbors see you in a specific way. All the way to, I have to perform this way at work or in my business, because what would my colleagues think? So congratulations. You're probably in the people pleasing category. But I also think semantics matter. So if you don't resonate with that specific moniker. It could just be I'm wrestling with my investment in what other people think. But either way we've got an issue here, something.

Nancy: Yeah. When I walk the dog, sometimes I'll be like, oh, I wore the same shirt yesterday. What will people think? And I'll be like, no one notices that you wore the same. No one's looking at you as you're walking. So that was a good example.

Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of us have that we have these, one of the things that I talk about with my students all the time is, my, I have two rules.

I don't have many, but I do have two. And one is you do not apologize for crying and you don't apologize for what you look like. You don't, you roll out of bed. You get on, no, because guaranteed dudes aren't doing that. So it's one way we can say fuck the patriarchy.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. Yeah, totally. So some of it is, and the people pleasing is the investment you have in what other people think.

And then some of it I find, and I'm curious, your thoughts on this is like a, it's like your empathy radar is off and you are too invested in other people issues and problems and perceptions of you.

Amy: Yes, that's a tricky one because this is also, it's tricky also in the realm of values.

So for example, you could have a strong value around accomplishment, achievement also sometimes caregiving or impact philanthropy. And there are times when I think our values cross the line between, it brings me fulfillment into this realm of I'm not valuable unless I have all of these things. And a value is really something that should be adding to your life.

Your self-worth is contingent on if you accomplish, if you achieve. And I think empathy is in that sticky place, because especially if you're a highly sensitive person, which many people's anxiety are or if you are an empath and you feel things very palpably, and you're also a woman unpacking some of the narratives around we're responsible for everybody else's feelings and emotions, it gets very convoluted.

So I think in those situations, your wording really matters. So this is one of the reasons why I advocate that people don't say I feel bad. Or I feel guilty, guilt. If you have to say no to somebody, or if you have to decline an invite or you have to say, no, I'm not going to bake all those cupcakes for the kids class or whatever, then you, that doesn't warrant guilt.

You haven't done anything wrong. You don't need to change your behavior in any way. So one of the ways to work with that is to acknowledge what empowering emotion you're feeling. So it could be something like I'm feeling concerned, I'm feeling compassion, I'm feeling empathy. I'm feeling love. I'm feeling whatever it is, but let's stop saying I feel bad or I feel guilty because that locks us into I'm responsible for their emotional current.

Nancy: I love that. Yeah. That is that's really well said. Yeah. I would want to highlight the part about values. Not a standard for which your self-worth is contingent on. I've never heard someone separate that out. And I think that is a place where people go with values,

Amy: all the time.

And so where it, because we're also gluttonous, we're a gluttonous population and people, and if you're anxious, you probably also have that. I've got to have as much as possible. So if it's a value, I need to honor it to its absolute fullest. And then we get in this perfectionism around our personal development, but what's really, so the way that I describe a value is just a component that must be present in your life in order for you to be fulfilled.

So it's like an addition. So for example, I know that order and organization bring me a lot of fulfillment. I love love when things are in their place and tidy and all of that. So if I am able to touch a bunch of stuff in my office, I might get oh, like this burst of thrill, right?

That's an example of that value bringing me fulfillment. That's what it's designed to do right now. Conversely, let's say I have a bunch of friends over to my house and I'm not able to sit and connect with them because I'm stressed out about cleaning all the dishes, wiping down all the counters is everybody's glasses over here.

That would be an example of now the value has crossed over and now it's stealing my joy, but that's a fine line for everybody, but it gets tricky in the realm of accomplishment, achievement and. Specifically when we're talking about people pleasing, when we genuinely have a value around giving back to others, helping professions, that kind of stuff.

Really watch that line.

Nancy: Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. So why do you think people get stuck in this cycle of people pleasing?

Amy: Oh, geez. I think can we just blame the patriarchy for everything? Because pretty much that's what it is, but there's a handful of reasons, even if we go back even further than that.

Maybe not. I think it was prevalent pretty much all the time, but even if we look at our ancestors and we look at something like. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. One of our primitive needs as humans is a sense of belonging. And that comes from our ancestors. When, if you did not belong to a group to an organized group that literally meant death, that meant you cannot survive.

So that is bred into our subconscious, into our lizard mind. And so now, as we have evolved and developed as a species, now our lizard subconscious mind registers, oh, if Nancy doesn't like me, I might die. If this grouping of people don't like me, I might die social anxiety. I'm sure you've talked about this.

A lot. Anxiety is an iteration of our fear response. It's part of what we are already built with, so it's very easy for us to see now. I don't know if you've talked too much about this, but how we have various iterations of the fear response where. Anxiety. If you are apt to be in a situation where you would normally fight, but you can't fight that now has become anxiety.

If you're in a situation where you would normally flee, but you can't flee, you can't run away. Your boss is coming down your throat. It's more likely that you have depression. That's one of the reasons why people go to sleep when they're depressed, they're trying to flee. If you procrastinate a lot, it's likely that you are somebody who would be stuck in the freeze response.

That's the modern iteration of freeze. And then we have this sort of newer guy on the circuit, which is fun, which is this notion of, if you would normally try to make friends with that lion, that's about to eat you like, oh, friends, let me give you some food. That's fawning, modern iteration of that is people pleasing.

So we have all of these things that basically are the ways in which we're engaging with fear and which I'm sure you've talked about plenty, but I think really coming back and understanding for ourselves that first of all, I think there's only one documented case of a woman who does not have the fear response.

And unless you are, she, it's highly likely that with fear and hence anxiety and all of these other things. But it may also be a part of the marriage between the anxiety and some of this people pleasing stuff too. But recognizing that, oh, my body is actually just trying to take care of me. I was wired this way and now we know consciously, oh, I'm actually not going to die body.

Thank you so much for sending in all that anxiety, but I'm not going to die. If Nancy doesn't like me, I'm not going to die. If all these people don't buy my shit or I, one of my favorite tools for anxiety has been talking to my physiological response, talking to my body. But recognizing that for me, it was really eye-opening that, oh, I'm not fucking broken.

I have just this primitive response, that's manifesting this way. And for some of it it's the fawning it's I can take care of myself if I make sure everybody loves me. So I think that's a huge piece. There's also a faulty narrative that people buy into around around self-worth like we were dancing around earlier and it sounds something like this.

If these people love and accept me, then I'm worthy or conversely, if they do not love and accept me, then I must not be worthy. And then there's a, self-fulfilling prophecy in every area.

Nancy: Yeah. And it's a bottomless pit, like if, even if they give me approval, I got to keep searching. It might fall at any time.

I did got to keep sucking up, that idea. It was interesting. I went, I I, the fawning and the freezing and reminds me of Brené Brown's shame shields that she talks about. And I was at the training with Brené Brown and people who have listened to me have heard this story.

You suck up when you feel shame. I was at the conference in my small little group, and I had shared something about how I had written a blog post about my dad having dementia. And that was how it got out into the world that this was happening to him.

And one of the members came up to me after, and she was like, that one of the only thing that people with dementia have control over is who knew, who knows. And you took that away from him by sharing that publicly. And I immediately was awash in shame and said, oh, thank you so much for sharing that you're right that was, terrible of me. And I sat down and I thought to myself, why did I thank her for calling me out on something that was already done and that she had no clue about? And then I had talked to my parents about they knew it was happening. Like it wasn't, but I, instead of correcting her or moving, in a different way, I thanked her for that really critical comment to me.

And that was when I was like, ah, there's the sucking up there. There is a demonstration of how that's showing up for me. And I am so good at doing that. Sometimes I don't even notice that I'm doing it

Amy: right. So I have two things I want to say about that. One is actually three first is that's where personal development goes bad.

That's where, when I call self-help goes wrong when it becomes elitist and condescending. Okay. So I don't condone that behavior. Second of all, is that those are perfect opportunities to do what I call declaring the do-over. Hindsight is 2020. You see really clearly what happened there after the fact, and then being very intentional about here's what I'm going to do next time.

And you can either visualize it. You can write it out. These are the things I'm going to say, but mapping out, these, this is going to be different next time. The third thing that I wanted to say about that is having, especially if you know that this is your tendency, this is one of the ways to declare the do-over is to get ahead of any time I'm caught off guard.

Anytime I'm caught off guard or I'm confronted by something. And I'm not fully ready to process this or retort in a way where I feel like I can really advocate for myself. You can simply say something like, wow, I'm really caught off guard by your statement. I'm going to need to mull that over a little bit.

Before I respond, I want to give the courtesy, it deserves, love that having some kind of statement or even very simple. Wow. I was not ready for that, or I wasn't expecting that. I want to give this a thoughtful response. So I'm going to need to chew on that. I'm going to marinate whatever the words are for you.

But if this is your case where you have that gut response of just you must be right. Then because we will respond to criticism in that way. We know from NLP neuro-linguistic programming that whoever has the stronger frame, meaning whoever is more demonstrative, gregarious, outspoken or assertive or aggressive will absorb any lesser frame.

So she comes at you with very like assertive. Here's what you did wrong. And it's for sure a thing. If you don't match that with equally as powerful of a frame, you get just gobbled right up. One of the biggest pieces in speaking up for yourself and speaking your needs, speaking your truth is having these go-to phrases.

So rewind that if you need to write it down and then rehearse the fuck out of it, stand in front of your mirror and rehearse it because you will be surprised how quickly you call upon that the next time somebody sideswipes you. Now, one other thing, bonus number four is if you can, if you recognized that during the time during the conference, you can go circle back and clean that shit up.

And you can say, you know what? I so appreciate your honesty and you sharing with me your perspective. And I realized that I jumped on board with that without fully processing it. And we don't need to get involved in a big conversation, but I just wanted to let you know that after thinking about it, I don't share that same stance.

Nancy: Ah, that's lovely

Amy: So where you can cut because I do find that people go, oh, I've never said anything for 30 years, or I've never said anything this whole time I've worked at this company. I can't say something now. And I'm like, yes, you can. Yes, you absolutely can. Yeah.

Nancy: So I love that because it's doing the intention, it's setting the intention.

So it's like being able to, I think a lot of times when we hear this stuff, the self-help stuff and personal development, we are like, oh yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. I would totally do that, but we never put it into our bodies in the sense of you say practicing it and get in front of the mirror and recognize the do over.

And what would you say, like all of that intentionality is so important to reprogram the natural response.

Amy: Exactly. And that, it's one of the stickier things about personal development in general is that. It's all thought and feeling work it's emotional work. So it's not oh, I do this sort of investing.

And I make all this money right. Where you can see a very tangible result. You won't, you will feel it. You will, the way it shows up is how you respond or how you advocate for yourself. And you, all of a sudden are shocked that you're doing that, but it takes repetition. Just like anything else, just like lifting weights or learning a new language.

You don't just look at a book to learn Spanish and go, oh, that's a really good, yes. And then go. Cool. Good idea. And then close the fucking book. The thing with personal development only, it's less tangible. So you have to really look at what are those practices. And I think writing out phrases and rehearsing them is one of the most powerful things you can.

Nancy: I totally agree with you. So I want to go back to the example that I gave of that, I didn't know I was going to give, but I, so I did not end up circling back and talking to her. I just let it go. And when you just said that to me about circling back, I don't think I felt worthy enough to say that to, to even say the very benign thing you said just to even have the self loyalty enough to stand up for myself to say, I don't agree with you, so how do you start building that? And I know that's like the five hours of podcasting and I'm throwing you under the bus, so to speak, but I'm because I think that's the piece that gets, we hear the how, but we don't know, we don't have that inner belief yet that we're valuable enough to speak up.

Amy: Yes. So it, yeah, this is definitely not something you can wrap up in a quick, like 30 minute segment, but there are ways that you can start to move the mark. And I will say that you can work in either direction, so you can start by really bolstering and working on a sense of self-worth and there's a litany of ways to go about that.

And I'll talk about that in a second, so that you then have the side effects of feeling confident in speaking up, or you can work outside in where you start basically. What is it, fake it till you make it fake it until you actually believe it. And that usually feels wildly more scary and authentic to people, right?

The way that I work is to work more through the internal pieces and then move into how do you communicate that with the outside world, but you can work in either direction. It depends on how you operate best. And it also depends on where your biggest sticking points are. And I would say for most people, there's this sense of, I am not enough.

That's one of the reasons why we overachieve, right? Let me pile all of these accomplishments because then maybe I'll be worthy. And what we're actually saying with that is then maybe I'll actually be happy. Yes, because what we're always searching for is, we have to human drivers pursuit of pleasure, avoidance of pain.

And so if we think something will give us pleasure, that's usually an emotional response. That's going to make me feel happy or good or fulfilled. So we are always moving towards things based off of how we want to feel. And worthiness is one of those things that's directly tied to happiness. So it's maybe once I have this baby, then I'll be worthy, then I'll be happy.

It's all stockpiled together. So I have a little metaphor about that and I think the first step around believing that you are enough and I should say in the service of semantics, everybody uses. A handful of synonyms around worthiness. So the ones that I hear are mattering that I matter in some way, that I'm valuable, that I'm deserving.

I am enough worthiness. And then sometimes people equate lovable that I'm lovable. So whatever your semantics are, we're all, it's all self worth. That's what we're talking about

Nancy: Because the semantics are important because it has to resonate with you. As people are listening, it has to be like, oh yeah, valuable.

That's the, that's what I'm looking for. It lovable. That's what I'm looking for. Anyway, not to interrupt you, I just wanted to, I appreciate the semantics focus. Because I think it's HUGE.

Amy: , it really is. Yes, it really is. So think about what are those. What is that deep seated belief for you? Is it that I don't matter that I'm not enough, is it that I'm not worthy, that I don't have value?

What, deserving is another huge one. I'm not deserving of the things I want. So what is that for you? And then what I want you to understand is that there's nothing wrong with you. There's only something wrong with the belief system and beliefs are totally malleable. We know from, from ton of anecdotal evidence, but then also just how the neural pathways work in the mind that our brain has plasticity, meaning that you absolutely can teach an old dog new tricks.

So everything that you believe right now, You've gotten to that place because of some kind of conditioning where you witnessed some sort of event or circumstance or upbringing or chapter of your life. And then you made a conclusion about that. And we do that stuff subconsciously. We don't go, oh, I have parents who were really absent growing up, or I had a special needs sibling who got all of the attention.

So I'm going to throw all of who I am into academia and accomplishing and achieving so that I can maybe be valuable in some way. And now as an adult, I'm going to have zero sense of self worth. And I'm going to just keep checking off all the boxes and feel totally empty and drink myself to sleep every night.

Nobody does that. We just experienced something. And then we create our interpretation, which becomes the belief. So if we're looking at like, how do we change a belief around the enoughness piece? The first step is actually getting curious and getting inquisitive about, could this actually change?

Because most of the time when we have a belief it's factual in our mind, it's the truth. And now if we look at like a, an extreme example, like a cult, okay. A Cult has stringent belief structure, built in to the cells of the person's being anyone who breaks out of a situation like that. The first thing they will tell you is they started questioning.

They started getting curious. They started asking, wait a minute. Is this really all that there is this really all? That's right. So how that relates to us is start asking what if I actually created this belief that I'm not enough or that I'm not worthy? What if I could actually shift that and change it?

And it's almost like if you are. Going in to try on a new outfit. Sometimes you just got to go in the store and just stand there and look at it for a minute. You might not be even ready to try it on yet, but for God's sake, go in the fucking store. And we, and you'll get to a point where you wear it with pride and then you start adding some accessories and some heels.

And but we have to start trying it on. So just listening to this going, what is this crazy girl? And the internet has something to say. What if I actually could change this belief about myself? You have to start picking it apart. The other metaphor that I have that might be helpful for people. Is this notion of who you are as a house.

Like your self-worth is you are this house. Okay. And we've got some rooms that are far more pristine, and then we've got other ones that we don't want people to see. We're still cleaning up some shit over there. And, but this is us. We have our value, nothing can change the value of this home, this house.

And then we have people who will drop off, let's say a gift on your porch. And this is like receiving accomplishments or accolades or honors or compliments or acceptance. And we go, oh wow. As a human, that emotionally feels off. Okay, cool. I'll go ahead and bring that into my house, but I also recognize that I'm just experiencing how good that emotion feels.

This gift does not change the value of this house, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yes. That's. I love that metaphor. Oh my gosh. That's amazing

Amy: . So the antithesis of that is somebody leaving a giant pile of shit on your porch. And this is rejection criticism, loss, disappointment being passed over for jobs being dumped.

And we go, okay, I'll go ahead and take all of that shit and bring it into my house. And then it stinks it up and makes it all messy. It still doesn't change the worth of the house, but it makes your situation really stinky. So one of my favorite metaphors or mantras rather around this is, oh, I'm currently not accepting any piles of shit.

So for your interaction with this gal, she was basically saying here, you want to handle all of this shit. I'm going to hand you this pile and nowhere in any circumstance, would anybody be like, okay, I'll literally carry that. If we're talking about not literally how millennials use it, but literally like the original definition.

Nancy: Yes.

Amy: Someone's hold onto this for me, Nancy.

I'm currently not accepting any piles of shit, but what we have to recognize. And I know you've talked a lot about emotional intelligence, is that when we're rejected, when we're criticized, when somebody says, no, I don't want to be with you anymore, or no, I don't want to hire you. That is going to carry an emotional response.

We are going to hurt. We are going to feel that, but that does not mean that you aren't worthy. That means that somebody left shit on your porch and you have to decide, am I going to make that mean that this is going to stink up my whole place? Or I'm mad. I'm going to go, Hey, that sucks. I'm going to let myself feel that I'm going to let myself cry, but I'm going to hang out here in, in all of my self-worth and recognize that our human experience is different than our worth.

What we feel is different than our worth, but emotions are fucking dramatic. So we feel like, oh, he doesn't love me. She doesn't love me. I must be not lovable instead of this is just this hurts. This situation sucks. I don't suck.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great clarifier. Yeah, I totally, yeah. Yeah,

Amy: I forgot the question I'm sorry.

Nancy: . No, you answered it. Because it's about like, how do you start moving? How do you start moving that line of self-worth? And I think the house metaphor, like even paying attention to, what am I letting in my house? Am I picking up the shit someone's leaving and bringing it in?

And that, because so many of, my, my peeps, my clients, my listeners the accolades define who they are. And so to recognize I can bring it in and I can be excited about this, but that doesn't mean that it defines me.

Amy: Yeah. And there's two other things that I think people will sometimes not allow themselves to feel the joy. Like they don't let themselves feel the excitement or they dismiss compliments. That's also a self worth saying or they think if I accept the compliment, if I allow it, then I'm being somehow grandiloquent and have all this hubris, which is also faulty.

If you think about, if you were to give me a lovely gift of, let's say some really fine scotch whiskey, which I would definitely not be mad at you for. (laughter)

So let's say, me, I love this. You've been thinking of me. I did something you thought was really awesome. And so you're. Hey, Amy, I got you. This gift. I was just so proud of you for this thing. You did, blah, blah, blah. And what if I took that and I smashed it onto the ground. That is exactly what it's like.

When somebody gives you a compliment and you try to talk them out of it, they, it is the exchange of energy. Definitely. If you thought about it being an actual, real gift, I would never do that. You would never do that. So the same thing is true about conditioning, our own self-belief and our own self-worth.

If we are constantly talking people out of compliments for us, or if we are constantly putting other people's opinions in front of our own all the time, that reinforces that subconscious message that you are not enough. If you were to do nothing with that situation that you highlighted with the gal at the conference, if you kept going into those scenarios over and over again, doing the same thing that would reinforce that.

First of all, you don't deserve to speak up. Second of all. Everybody else is right. And you're responsible to make them feel good. Whatever the beliefs are, but it will, it keeps compounding it. So that's one of the things that I tell people I'm like, even though it's hard to have a boundary, even though it's hard to speak up for yourself, please understand why that's important because your silence is making you a liar, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the reason that story stands out to me so strongly is because that shifted, that was the story that started shifting stuff for me that was like, wait a minute, look at how often you do that. Because I hadn't ever seen it right in front of me, literally at five minutes after it happened.

Look what you just did. And I hadn't, I'd been doing that my whole life. I just hadn't seen it in such like a TV show in front of me way. That makes sense. But wouldn't you say, because when you said that about the accolades, someone, Not celebrating your accolades. If you if you celebrated your accolades, if you were like, I just got this award, that's so amazing.

And you were super excited. I would be super excited for you. And I wouldn't think, oh God, who does she think she is to be celebrating this? But I have separated out accolades and self-worth,

Amy: yes, good

Nancy: but if they are the same to me, if you are celebrating it, then you celebrating the accolade in my mind means you're celebrating yourself worth.

And so then you are full of yourself. In that warped view of how those work together.

Amy: Yeah. This is where I feel like, do you think most men have this concern? That's one thing from a meta view. The other is, I think selfish is the new black personally. I think we need to get out of this notion.

If you think about. I did an interview with somebody years ago who was under the impression that self-love was selfish and something that we shouldn't necessarily strive for, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah, it was a man wierdly enough. And so I was like, okay, let me take this guy to school real quick.

And, but I, if you think about love in any other context, Love with children. Love with animals, love of nature, love of a community. Love between spouses. It's never a selfish thing. It's never a negative thing. It's a beautiful thing. So why the fuck would we think that self-love is a problem? In fact it's necessary.

And I also think that the more boundaried I become, the more outspoken I've become about my wants in my marriage or the things that have hurt me. And with my best friends, the more respect I've gotten and the more freedom I've given to them to advocate for their own needs. So I do think that there is a place where selfishness is bad, right?

Like where it really does because damage. But I think for most of us who are in this space, trying to love who we are, the bigger problem is giving ourselves permission to tend to self, to take care of yourself. And I think that self-care can be environmental. It can be who you're hanging out with. It can be physical, how you're taking care of your physical body.

It can be spiritual. How you're speaking to yourself, the energy that you allow. It's not always fucking bubble baths. But it's preservation of self it's care for oneself. And to me, I feel like if we need to call that selfish fine, but like I'm going to wear that all damn day.

Nancy: Yeah.

And it's care for oneself. Not because some podcasts. Personal development. People said, you need to have care for yourself, or because you read it on an article on Buzzfeed, but because this is what your body needs, or, this is what your mind needs. So many of my clients will come to me and say, oh I'm getting up early now because I read on Buzzfeed, that productivity means you get up early and I'm like, okay, but do you, are you more productive at that time? I don't care what the experts say or the study says, what do you need? And so in that high achieving, we sometimes warp some of these personal development messages and turn them into sheds.

Yes. Rather than checking them with ourselves to be like, wait a minute. Is this something I agree with?

Amy: Yes. Amen. Okay. So remember when I was talking about the stronger frame and the lesser frame, I tell this as my students too, I'm a strong fucking frame. So everything that comes out of my mouth sounds like it's the way that it is.

I need you. I need you to be empowered and discern. Okay. That's Amy's truth. That's Amy's perspective to go into the dressing room, try it on. Does it feel right for me? And then you have full autonomy and permission to either absorb or release and that personal empowerment. It is not academia. I, it is not something that you can do a worksheet.

Perfect. Yeah. It is completely contingent off of how you operate and how you function. Yeah. I completely agree with you on that. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay. So frequently when this is new, this idea of speaking up for yourself or speaking a need or et cetera, et cetera. I have found that the need has been gone for so long like we have ignored it for so long. A scenario that our husband doesn't help do the dishes, I'm making this up as I go. And so we want to speak up and be like, Hey. So then sometimes to get into them being either passive aggressive, or we as I call it a 10 reaction to a two situation, we over, we go overboard, how do we let that, I say the energy needs to be clear.

How do we let the energy of what we want to be saying world, to be clear and not get caught up in muddling the message because we're, we are engaging in the drama or passive aggressiveness or these other things that, that we don't want to be doing, but they just happen because they're the default..

Amy: That there's so much I can say on this, but the first thing is a lot of this comes down to your own awareness. Because one thing that we know when it comes to communication with other people is that people will not make change unless they feel understood. So if you come at your partner, like a bat outta hell telling him or her all the shit they're doing wrong, It is highly unlikely that they're going to go, you know what, babe, I'm going to totally work on that.

They're going to, they're going to do one of two things. They're either going to appease you to get you to shut up, or they're going to be combative and start screaming and yelling. And all of a sudden, all this shit's coming out that isn't even related to the dishwasher. So it's ineffective. So the first thing is to recognize.

What you're like, you're pissed offedness, right? So you come home from a long day where Dave work, you see just stacks of dishes in the sink that, we're not there the last time you were around and your blood starts boiling and you're like mother fucker, just getting so pissed.

So in those situations, you have to acknowledge that it is not time to address it. You do not address it when you are in that heightened emotional state, because there's some work that you have to do to figure out what you are going to say. So in those middle zone times, let's say your partner comes over to you and wants to hug you.

And you're pissed. You have to own that shit. You have to own that shit. And you have to say something like I'm finding myself really frustrated in the moment I need 30 minutes to decompress. Or. Absolutely want to hug you I'm in a prickly place. So our tendency is to make the other person wrong and to say oh, now you want to fucking hug.

Oh, like we want to make the other person wrong so that you have to acknowledge what emotional space you're in and then advocate for it. Say, I cannot be around you or I need 30 minutes or I need to decompress before I'm super connected. Then when you are processing, I usually tell people to look for the presenting issue and then look for the surface issue or the root issue.

Yeah. The presenting issue is the dishes. That's not what this is really about. It is what that behavior says to you and makes you feel that's the root issue. The root issue is likely something like I don't feel respected in this relationship. I feel taken advantage of. I don't feel seen, I don't feel heard.

I feel dismissed. I feel like there's a disconnect between value systems, whatever it is, but you have to get to the root of it because honey, it is never the dishes, right? It's never the shoes. It's never the blinds. It is what that represents to you and tells you about the relationship. But unless you get to that root issue, you're going to be yelling and screaming about dishes.

And that's not really what it's about. And it's also so much easier to dismiss somebody on logistic stuff. That just doesn't make sense. Why don't you just load it? You're always over there. We fight for what's right around logistics. It's far harder for you to dismiss someone when they come to you saying, I realize that I've never really been vocal about this before.

And for that, I really need to apologize because it, how would you ever know? But I'll be really honest with you. The. The issues that we've had around the dishes. I know I have not always handled myself well, and I've screamed and yelled at you, but I realize where some of that anger has come from. And I really want to share that with you because you've always been so receptive to the things that are on my mind.

So you have to own your shit, right? You have to say, I've never communicated this in an effective way because we feel so validated and vindicated. If we've said something, even if it's yelling and screaming, let me tell you right now that does not count. It does not count it's in one ear out the other. It sometimes even partners will do it just to piss you off if you're in one of those types of relationships.

So it does not count until you've had a really thoughtful, vulnerable exchange with somebody. So sitting down and saying, I realized why this has been so problematic to me. It's because I feel like there's an unequal distribution of labor around the house. I feel a sense of being taken advantage of. You can also honor their intention and say, I assume that is not at all what you want me to feel.

Assume positive intent. So ways in which to deliver that. Now that's so much harder to disregard and dismiss than if you were to talk about the surface issue of why can't you just do the dishes.. So there's some language around how to go about it, but to distill down what the tactics are, you have to cool off, do not address it while you're in the heat of that intensity.

You circle back and you own your shit and you come from a vulnerable place. That's one of the hardest skills for people to do, but it's far more likely that you will elicit more vulnerability in return. If you go in with defenses down, it's more likely that they'll mirror that, but to own your shit and say this, first of all, how you've communicated in the past.

I apologize for that. And I, there's no way you would know, because I always make a joke.

Nancy: Yeah. If you're a good people, pleaser, you've just been like, it's fine. It's fine. This isn't a big deal until it is

Amy: Sure I will do the dishes, right? Yeah. So I always say if you present it as a joke, expect it to be taken as a joke.

That's a sorry way to, or a pathetic way to express your needs. However, I will say, be compassionate with yourself because that has been the only skillset or tool that you've had until now. We're always just trying to get our needs met. We just have a faulty toolbox.

Nancy: Yes. Thank you for saying that, because I think that is the piece that a lot of people, we forget the idea of the compassionate that have a faulty toolbox. I love that because it is just I should have done better and I should have all of that beating ourselves.

Amy: Yeah. And you can do a whole declaring the do-over situation.

Let's say you get home, you get pissed, you scream and yell at your partner. Because that's your normal gut response. You take time to cool off and process, and then you circle back and you apologize for that. And then talk about the root issue. Here's where it's really coming from. And no matter what I'm feeling, it's not fair for me to speak to you like that.

Yeah, it's a yes. And because we feel so righteous, if you weren't such a fuck up, I wouldn't have to speak to you like, and that is never a recipe for thriving communication.

Nancy: Because I will say sometimes I'll say to my husband in that situation I'm like if he comes to give me a hug and I see the dishes, I'll say I'm mad about the dishes, but that's not what I'm mad about.

And I need some time to figure out what that is, as a way to, to acknowledge that he's picking up on something, but it isn't, that isn't it, but I need some time. And that's hard to say because the other person even to say, I need 30 minutes before I can, I need some time that is hard because there, the person's uncomfortable and what is a baby?

What do you need? What's the going on? What's the problem? And to hold that boundary sometimes.

Amy: It's hard because that's another people pleasing. One partner wants to talk it out and then you're not ready. You're going to do it a disservice. And one of the things that I do tell couples to do that, if you are aware that this is a dynamic that's happening in the relationship, have a code word or something that you say, I usually will tell people, come up with something that is a code word or a code phrase.

That's innocuous. Something like the Eagle flies at Dawn or flying monkeys have landed or something like that, where it can be code for, oh shit, she's pissed, but she doesn't quite know why. And doesn't want to take it out on me unnecessarily. That's the meaning behind the phrase. But where you have an agreement and then the other person understands to retreat and to give space.

And, but you have to talk about that in a very non heightened, emotional place where you can both establish the confines of what that would, that phrasing means for the two of you

Nancy: . And then make sure you have the agreement to circle back to actually talk about whatever it is. Because I know people will be like, that's fine now we're fine. Everything's fine

Amy: . Then it becomes the sweeping under the rug. So then it's got to be, and you can be funny with it. You can be like, are you ready to have an uncomfortable conversation about the flying monkey?

Yay, ready? Let's do it, and be fun with it. And so there's ways to break some of that stuff down, right?

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome. I like how you clarified that. Sometimes when we're in the personal development world, we it's easy for us to spout off. Here's what you should do and forgetting the uncomfortableness of actually doing that stuff.

And so I appreciate all your examples and metaphors where you really are breaking it down on. Helping people who are new to this, and it's super uncomfortable how to set those, to speak up and ask for what it is they need.

Amy: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of that too, because that's how my mind thinks.

And give me step-by-steps though. I can't just, oh, speak your truth. What the fuck does that mean? Exactly. You know what I mean? I really think that way, therefore, I teach that way as well. And I think. When it comes to learning how to do this. One of the things that I'll tell people is get it out on paper because we've all gone through anyone with anxiety has gone through playing that shit over and over again in your head.

And here's what I should have said. Okay. Write all that stuff down. And even if you are going into a conversation where let's say you are circling back with somebody, write it all out. If you want just like a straight up letter. And then here's what you say. You say, I know this sounds really silly that I wrote all of this down, but it's really important to me to get it right.

And I, I don't want to keep communicating with you the way I happen because it's not fair to you. So I'm just going to read my paper and my request is that you just hear me out and then I absolutely want to hear your thoughts as well. But my request is just let me get through it. And then we can discuss.

So I tell people that all the time, because we think, because when we don't have that, we get derailed, we get defensive, we get into all of our old patterns. So there's no shame in that. And just saying, I really wanted to get it right this time. And it was important to me to make sure I spelled this out in a way that was fair to you.

Yeah. And yeah,

Nancy: because I think a lot of times I'll talk with I was talking with a client today who had said her husband had said something pretty benign and her monger, picked it up and was it just hit her so deep as a deep wound of shame.

And she was up all night, rehashing it. And so we talked through like how she could talk to him. And so a lot of times in your code phrase, I'll say I'll say sometimes it's helpful to be like, I'll say to my husband, oh, my monger is going crazy today. And she's telling me that you're thinking.

Yes. And he can be like, yeah, no. And so having those ways of being able to talk about it in a owning, owning your shit, as you say, but also a less intense way of discussing it.

Amy: Okay. Yeah. I use a tool with my students around that has a lot to do with what we're making up.

So essentially all you do is you start looking at what are the facts of the situation, what was said, and then what journey did I take? Where I made? In fact, I have a similar anecdote where my, we were renovating part of our house in California, before we moved here to North Carolina. And we, my husband had a bunch of the stuff that was out on the patio. He had moved it into the living room, which is where I did my workouts. And so he said to me, he said, Hey, are you still doing your workouts? And I was like, oh no, but that was the only phrase he said.,

So my mind went, oh my gosh, he's not attracted to me to work out. He wants to meet blah, blah, blah. And so I said in those moments, really similar to what you said is I said, can I just tell you where my head went? If they don't know inner critic or they don't know, you can say things like, can I tell you what I just made up in my mind?

Or can I tell you how that landed? Or can I tell you my interpretation of that or where I just went in my head. I got to just get this out. And so I did. And he was like, oh no, not at all. I was just concerned that I had all my shit in the living room and you weren't going to have any room. So not only was it not malicious, it was actually really thoughtful.

I had made up was so fantastic because then what happens is when we don't take that step of here's where I just went in my head or here's what my Monger just said when we don't do that, we start looking for more evidence to support that story. So if he, if we would have been watching TV, let's say, and he saw somebody who was like, oh wow, she's really attractive.

My, I would have gotten this totally innocuous. Normally I would've gone. Oh, he thinks I'm gross. And you know that I need to exercise more and I'm lazy and he's attracted to everybody else. And I would just start stockpiling. And then, and none of it actually being true right now, there are some times when.

You say, here's where I went and they go, yeah, I do feel that way. And then you've got a totally different thing to with, but at least you're not swimming around with a bunch of fictitious stories. You're getting to the root of it and you're figuring out what you're dealing with instead of not being able to sleep because you're not sure.

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's amazing. Some of the things where my brain can go, oh, not just me, I'm saying everyone. And my partner's like, how did you get there? Like that? And so easily…

Wow, it wasn’t pretty. And then, because I had one recently, I was down, I cooked dinner and then I went down where I said, dinner is ready.

Then I ran downstairs to swap the laundry and I'm downstairs, switching from the dryer. And I'm like, you've got to get up there and he's going to be really mad at you. If you don't get up there because you said dinner was ready and now you're downstairs doing the laundry and you're supposed to be eating dinner with him and he comes down and I'd say that, I'm like, this is the crazy thing going on in my head.

And he said, how awful do you think I am? That I'm upstairs going come on, bitch, get your dress up here. We're supposed to be eating dinner and what you're doing, my laundry downstairs. You're so ridiculous. Yeah. And I didn't realize that was helpful for me to say oh yeah, this is hurtful to him.

Like that I'm that I go there instead of, and not be like, wait, this is your husband who loves you. He's not thinking you're an irresponsible bitch, because you're doing the laundry.

Amy: And I find that so much of the time people will tell me. And, my students or clients will say, I'm so worried that he'll think this or that she'll think that, and I'm like, then stay that, you know what?

It is my deepest fear that I come across like this or that you think that I don't value you or that I don't care about you, but here. So I was really apprehensive even bringing this to you, but I want our relationship to be one of honesty and I want the same in return. So here's my. Fill in the blank, but so much can be rectified by just telling a person you have something to say, and you're scared to say it.

Yes. You love them so much because you value them so much because you don't want to because any pain or hurt. Just say that.

Nancy: Exactly. Okay. I won't keep you anymore, Amy. I could talk to you for hours. So thank you so much for taking your time to come and talk about people pleasing. This was so helpful and incredible.

Amy: It was my pleasure. I could talk to you forever, too.

Nancy: I love the way Amy Smith teaches these concepts. I love thinking in metaphors and the house metaphor she shared has been so helpful. I sometimes struggle with hooking myself worth to the things that happen to me, both the successes and the struggles.

So recognizing that I can feel good about a win in my life and that doesn't change the value of my house. This also has been playing out lately with all the 2020 has brought, I've been feeling some sadness and hopelessness and recognizing that those feelings, they also don't change the value of my house and they aren't something I need to push away because they too are part of my house.

And then when my mother gets too loud and she starts slamming me with something completely irrational, I can use this metaphor to say, is this something I want to bring into my head? Is this serving me and nine times out of 10, it isn't. And then when I look a little deeper, it's probably rooted in a feeling that I don't want to do within that moment.

The house metaphor has allowed me to be a really good caretaker of my self loyalty, and I hope it does the same for you.

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Episode 153: How the Conventional Happiness Formula Keeps Us Stuck

In this episode, I’m talking with Kim Strobel a happiness and empowerment coach about the conventional happiness formula.

Frequently we will ask ourselves—why am I unhappy?

But the key component is the question underneath the question. 

What is making you unhappy? 

Or better yet, how would you know if you were happy? 

A friend, former guest, and storytelling expert, Hillary Rea, shared that it might come down to asking a more beautiful question—a question that helps you get to the heart of the question to uncover the answer. Often, Hillary uses the phrase—ask a more beautiful question—to prompt her to get to the heart of an issue. 

Throughout my own experiences, I’ve found that the beautiful question is usually underneath the question that’s important and so today’s episode is a study into the question underneath the question concept.

I’m talking with Kim Strobel, a happiness and empowerment coach and the founder of Strobel Education. As a leadership consultant and happiness coach, Kim helps businesses, organizations, and high-achievers prioritize their health and well-being so they can reach new levels in their business and their life. And as a result, businesses and organizations take massive actions and create positive change in every area.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The conventional happiness formula and how it keeps us stuck

• Adding gratitude and affirmations into your life in a helpful way (you know I have some opinions about these 2 concepts so Kim and I break it down for you!)

• How Kim’s panic disorder affected her life, how she overcame it, and what happened when it reared its ugly head again

• How the process of learning to live with her panic disorder helped bring her happiness

Resources mentioned:

• www.KimStrobel.com

• www.StrobelEducation.com

• The She Finds Joy Podcast

• She Finds Joy on Facebook

• Follow Kim on Instagram

• Follow Kim on Twitter

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Kim: What happens is you are so focused and you've tied your happiness to that goal, that you're letting it still, all the happiness that is available to you right now. So even when things are really tough, I tell people, find your happy in the now while also reaching for your big, bold vision.

Nancy:: Ask a more beautiful question.

Recently, a friend and former guests, Hillary Rea shared that idea with me. It's from a David White quote. “Solace is the art of asking the beautiful question of ourselves, of our world or of one another in fiercely difficult and beautiful moments” said, David. From his book Constellations. I like to think of it as the question underneath the question that is important.

And Hillary uses the phrase to ask a more beautiful question to prompt herself, to get to the heart of the issue frequently. We will ask ourselves, why am I unhappy? But the key component is the question underneath the question. What is making you unhappy? Or better. What would you do, if you were happy? Today's podcast episode is a study in the question underneath the question concept,

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. Nancy: Jane Smith.

On today's episode, I'm talking with Kim Strobel, a happiness and empowerment coach and the founder of Strobel Education.

The topic of our conversation and the starting point was the question, what is the conventional happiness formula and how does it keep us stuck? And Kim and I discussed that and then there's a wonderful juicy conversation. But for me, the meat of the interview is the question beneath the question, which came out through our discussion, which is how can Kim continue to be happy when she deals with panic disorder?

How does she live with something so debilitating and surprising when you meet Kim, you will see what I mean and how the process of learning to live is what helped bring her real happiness, Kim and I talk about the conventional happiness formula and how it keeps us stuck adding gratitude and affirmations into your life in a helpful way.

And I have some opinions about these two concepts. So Kim and I break it down for you. Kim's panic disorder and how it affected her life, how she overcame it and what happened when it reared its ugly head.

Nancy:: Kim. I am so excited to have you here today to chat with you.

Kim: Thank you. I'm honored to be here with you.

Nancy:: So we're just going to dive right in. S I was so intrigued when you reached out to me to via email and you were talking about the conventional happiness for me. Such a great phrase and why it keeps us stuck. Tell me more about that

Kim: The traditional formula for happiness, that we've all been fed and has been ingrained in us from previous generations and.

We see it all around us from social media to the way our neighbors are living. But the conventional formula for happiness is basically work really hard in school. Go to college, choose a degree where you make a lot of money. Definitely don't choose teaching because you're not going to make a lot of money (being former teacher) get out into the world, get a job.

Work really hard climb the corporate ladder, get a better job working, even harder, get an even better job, make more money. And then eventually you can have the nice cars and you can have the nice, big, beautiful home. And once you've been able to accomplish all of these things and work your way up the ladder on the other side of that, you have achieved.

You have finally gotten there. And what we now know from Sean Acres course, positive psychology and very vetted research from Harvard university, as well as research from Samuel Luber Misskey and and also Martin Seligman from the University of Pennsylvania is the formula for happiness is broken.

And in fact, It's completely backwards. What we now know is that when you bring your happiness to the forefront, first, it changes every single outcome in your life. So if you want to create more abundance in your life, don't chase the abundance first. Chase your happiness create your happiness, puts your well-being at the forefront first because when you have a mind at positive, you're able to come up with creative solutions to problems you couldn't come up with before or solutions.

When your brain is at positive, you're able to have a different perspective and see other opportunities that before you could not see. And so this whole idea of, Hey, our happiness m y wellbeing needs to be at the forefront first. That is a game changer.

Nancy:: So when you say I like, I love that you're saying my wellbeing and happiness using those words together, because happiness is a loaded term for sure.

What would you say is the definition of happiness in this. Scenario,

Kim: In the broken formula scenario or in both, I think happiness is my wife and I live in this nice, really big home. And we drive really nice vehicles and we both make a lot of money and we are high society folks, so to speak.

And because of all of that I am going to feel this great sense of fulfillment and happiness inside of me. And what we actually know is. Like we want to have, it's important to have big, bold visions for our life. And I would be the first to tell you Nancy:. I live in a big, beautiful home and I love it and I'm super thankful for it.

But I also know that if I lived in a thousand square foot home, My longterm happiness would not be affected by the size of my home. And so if I could just dive into the happiness research, this might be a good time to do that so that we can put these things into perspective..

What we know is that every one of us. We all have, what's called a default happiness level. So maybe my default happiness level is here. And maybe your default happiness level is a little bit higher than mine. So what happens is you and I go out and we buy a new purse or a new pair of shoes, or we get a new car or we purchase a new home or we get a new job.

And our happiness level does elevate, but it elevates for a very short time. What happens is it comes right back to default after a period of time. Yes, I'm walking around with my new Kate spade purse. It just came in the mail. I love it. I'm excited. I'm happy. Two days later, I'm back to default.

Or whatever it might be. Now what's interesting about the brain research and hard to wrap our mind around is that we also know this to be true. Of enduring really terrible things in our life. We know that you can encounter tragedy, loss, grief, disease, divorce, all of these things, and that our happiness level will drop.

But the brain has this kind of uncanny ability to reset itself after a period of time. And I have trouble wrapping my head around that because I'm not going to lie. Something's Nancy: I think could happen to me. And I feel like I would never get my happiness back, but if we, if I pose that question to people who are listening, I'm going to guess that we can all come up.

A handful of people who have had terrible atrocities done to them. And somehow they go on to live this very joyful, meaningful life. And so what we know from the brain research is that most of the time, our brain will return to default after a period of time. So now the question becomes where's our happiness come from where's our default from.

So I want you to picture your happiness as a pie chart. And so what we know is that 50% of your long-term happiness is genetic. It comes from your mom or your dad, or a mixture of both. Sometimes when I tell people this, they completely hang their heads

There is a genetic tendency to this. Like some of us were born into this world or we like lolly gap. The world is all bright and shiny and yeah we get a little stressed sometimes. But for the most part, we just constantly see the good in the world. And then there's others of us who have to work harder at it. Our brain is programmed more towards the negative.

And we work with people. We have friends like this, we have the negative Nellie, so to speak that have to work harder at being positive. And then we have the bright, shiny uniforms that just seem to automatically be able to do it.

Kim: If 50% is genetic.

Let me tell you a shocking statistic of that pie chart. Only about 10% of your long-term happiness comes from your external circumstances. So here's an external circumstance. What kind of car? What kind of home you live in, what kind of money you make? If you're married, single, divorced, or widowed.

If you have kids, if you don't have kids, if you need to lose 20 pounds or you need to lose 60 pounds, those are all external circumstances, but we let those external circumstances eat up way more of that pie than 10%. But the brain research will tell you the research is very strong. That those things only account for about 10%, but we have a mistaken belief we say to ourselves, when I can make this kind of money, I'll finally be happy when I can lose the 20 pounds.

I’ll finally be happy when I can find a partner that truly loves me all. Be happy. What's happening is your letting those external circumstances eat up way more of the pie and that's on you. My friend. And that's the hardcore truth of it. I know I do it sometimes. There's something that happens and three weeks later I'm still ruminating on it. And that's me saying, I'm letting this steal way more than 10% of the pie and it's time for me to stop letting it steal more than 10% of the pie. Now I want to make a clarification, Nancy:, because yeah. If your spouse, all of a sudden leaves you, you are going to be unhappy. It, it might take you six months or a year or two years, but the problem is it four and five and six years later, you're still unhappy because your husband left you.

That's on you, my friend, because you have you have to do the work right. And so I think that's, when we're thinking about the conventional formula, we put all of our eggs over here saying if I can achieve this, I can accomplish this. If I can simply buy this bigger home, it will bring my family so much more happiness.

And. I know this research I've lived here for 20 years and I still think that having the lake house is going to bring me more happiness.

Nancy:: It might bring you more joy.

Kim: Yeah! I can justify it to know end. And my husband, he's always really good. And he's Kim, you preach this happiness research to people, but then you tell me why you have 78 pairs of shoes in our class. (laughter)

I am anomaly to the research (Laughter) those shoes bring me more than 10% happiness,

Nancy:: but the cool thing about it, that it, is the idea that there's a lot of cool things about that research, but the cool thing about it is a, the back to the returning to default, I think that There to me, it takes off some of the pressure that that even when, and I can attest that, like after my dad died and I was like, I can't imagine a life without him in it.

And it was completely devastating to me. And I was just thinking this the other day as they always say, you never. Stop grieving, but it just, takes on a different form. And it has, like we have new memories with we're dad isn't there and, we've returned to somewhat of that homeostasis spot you were talking about.

And I think that sometimes we try to hold on so tight to the happiness that I need to be happy all the time, or I need to be. Returning to this certain spot that may not even be our default.. And then if it and we may be going through something traumatic where we just can't attain that happiness and that's okay.

Yeah.

Kim: I feel like we have created a culture where we have misconstrued this idea of positivity and yeah. It's like a culture of positivity. So we tell people. If they complain where like now listen, just focus on the positive, just focus on your blessings. Just be positive. And that does not work because what we're saying is, Hey, you're not allowed to have any negative feelings, just turn it off and switch to positive things.

And let me just tell you that does not work. We have to feel the negative feelings, but we also have to crawl out of the gutter a lot quicker if we're still there. Seven, seven days later. I want to work towards crawling out of the gutter, but like we have to be allowed to have these feelings. My mom who loves me dearly, I was having a stressful moment a few months ago and I was getting riled up and she goes, she said, wow, you are the happiness coach.

Mary Jo does not mean I'm not allowed to have negative feelings. Like sunshine, unicorns and butterflies. I'm a practitioner of happiness.

Nancy:: Yes. Yeah. That's an impossible standard that you're going to be happy all the time, which is, that's what I felt when you were explaining the defaults like, oh, some of this is just how I'm wired.

Yeah.

Kim: There are things we can do to change that. And we'll talk about that, but not beating ourselves up so much. The other thing that plays into this is this term called hedonic adaptation. And the brain is this very complex. Part of our body that comes from archaic times and the brain has the ability to adapt quickly to new circumstances in order to protect us and keep us out of danger.

That's why, back in the caveman days, our brains we're able to adapt quickly to harsh conditions so that we could endure that while we still have hedonic adaptation that goes on today. So for example, if it's 17 degrees outside and you're freezing, freezing, and you walk in, you know how good the fire feels at first. You will sit by the fireplace and it's so good. And it's so warm. And then after three minutes, you're like, okay, I'm done with it. That's hedonic adaptation. It's the same reason that people can walk in your house and they go, do you smell that? And you're like, I don't smell it hedonic adaptation.

So hedonic adaptation plays itself out in you get the new home and it feels really good for a few months. And then you get used to. And then you need an even bigger home to be happier, or you need to make more money to be happier. I'll be the first to tell you. I love beautiful things. I love my big, beautiful home.

I pull in the driveway and I have a lot of gratitude. So that's one of the ways that I keep it from getting stagnant is I'm constantly appreciating the flexibility and the freedom. And I have nothing against people acquiring wealth. I am a woman who's working to acquire wealth, but not because I think the big house brings me longterm happiness, but because of the other things that it can do for me, like freedom and flexibility, and to support causes that are endearing to my heart.

And so I don't want your audience to think, like we shouldn't want money or we shouldn't buy the big home. That's not it at all. Just don't count on those things to be super fulfilling.

Nancy:: And it's the same reason for like why when you go on vacation and you're like sitting there and, and then the fifth day of sitting there, you don't respond to it.

You're just like, ah, here we are by the ocean. And the first day you get there, you're like, this is amazing. I'm going to be here all the time, and then we, no matter how much you try to soak it in you can't because of the hedonic adaptation.

Kim: Yeah. And so we have to stop chasing the wrong things that are actually.

Taking so much of our happiness wellbeing and fulfillment away from us because we have attached happiness to this desired outcome. And I'm going to talk to you about that in a minute, but I think before I do that, I better explain the other 40% of the right.

Nancy:: Yes. Before you do that, though, I wanted to give an example of that.

That came up for me years ago before I was, I got married later. So I was in my late thirties when I got married and for much of mine. Late twenties, early thirties. It was, my mantra was if only I could find someone, if only I could find someone, everything will be happy and anything that went wrong, I blamed it on that.

No matter what was wrong, if I was overweight, if I was feeling crappy, it was just because I didn't have a partner. So I find my amazing husband. We get married we're in our first year of marriage and. I'm driving somewhere and something comes up where I'm not feeling happy and I'm, my monger steps in to beat me up.

And I thought if only I had a spouse and I was like, no, you have that is no longer the excuse anymore that is out the window. And it just really was amazing to me to see how we get these messages that we just keep on repeating. Even when they're not true anymore. And it was holding me back, I have said so many times.

I wish I could go back to that 30 year old and just say, dude, it'll be fine. Stop worrying about it.

Kim: Yeah, no, because you were letting It still the happiness that was available to you right now in the now. So we're going to go ahead and go there because we'll have to come back to the pie chart, because what you're talking about is I always tell people there's two things that, that you need, want to have big, bold dreams. I want to serve a hundred coaching clients next year, and I want my husband and I to buy a lake home. And I want to have an amazing African experience with my son on a trip. I have all of these visions and goals, but what happens is when you tie your happiness to the achievement of that goal, we play the.

If I find a partner, I'll be happy. That's what you were doing, if I lose 30 pounds, I'll be happy. If I can get this breast in, whatever, I'll be happy if I can get these wrinkles taken care of, I'll be happy. So what happens is you are so focused and you've tied your happiness to that goal, that you're letting it still, all the happiness that is available to you right now.

So even when things are really tough, I tell people. Find your happy in the now while also reaching for your big, bold vision. And sometimes I have to look around and go, wow. The only thing I can come up with right now is I'm happy. I took a breath and I'm happy the grass is green, so be real careful. And I do this too, but be careful of tying your happiness level to the outcome of a goal that you have.

Nancy:: As you said, we've been trained to do that. That's just like an unconscious thing that we get stuck in and really trying to build awareness of that, to recognize.

I'm still going to be me when I'm there.

Kim: Yeah. Hedonic adaptation plays out there. Like personally for me, I was like, oh, when I can finally charge $5,000 for my one hour keynote, I will know I have arrived now the 5,000 gain. And then next year it was like, Ooh, now I need 6,000, 8,000 when I, now I'm working on it.

And so it's again, Understanding that once you do reach your goal, you're just going to create another goal. And you're going to say now I need this to be happy. So just understanding that, but when we're looking at the pie chart and 50% is genetics of your long-term happiness, 10% is your external circumstances.

That leaves 40% of the pie left. And what I love Nancy: is that every human being, regardless of their genetics, regardless of their external circumstances, we all have the ability to increase our happiness levels by up to 40%. So who doesn't want to do that? Exactly. So this would be a whole training day for me to teach you all of these.

I want your audience to walk away with one of the top five ways they can increase their baseline happiness. Okay. So one of the top ways, and it's a very simple practice. It takes two minutes a day, and I promise you, it is a game changer and it's simply called gratitude.

Here's what we know. So I'm going to go back to the human brain in a minute. The brain has what's called the reptilian part of the brain. And the reptilian part of the brain is the part of the brain that was available back in the caveman days. And so the reptilian part of the brain's function was to constantly scan it's environment.

For everything negative in order to protect itself so that people in the archaic age had to scan for weather patterns and dark clouds and clans coming in, who might murder them and the food shortage and they have to pay attention to danger all of the time. And that's what kept them safe.

The issue is that in to days, age in 2020, We still have the reptilian part of the brain, even though we don't need it in that capacity. So the research says that the average human being has 70,000 thoughts a day. Wow. And the reason

Nancy:: I can believe that I'm like, that might be a little low. (laughter)

Kim: If you are really stressed you have 120,000 or so

Wow. Yeah. So we also know that the average human being for them, 80% of their thoughts are negative. So that if we take the 70,000, what we're saying is that most of them. If we're the average human being, most of us are having 56,000 negative thoughts in one day. And if you're like, oh, not me. Let me tell you a sister friend, let me take you back to this morning when your alarm went off.

The first thing you said is I didn't get enough sleep. And then you browsed to yourself about how bad your back hurt. And then you got up out of bed and you said, oh my gosh, I don't want to go to work to get today. And then you walk to the bathroom and your knees were hurting. And then you looked in the mirror and you had a fever blister, and then you put your pants on and thought how your belly was like, this happens. This is natural. It is the reptilian part of the brain. So what we know we have to do is we have to retrain the brain. And gratitude is one of the top ways you can do that. And you only need to write down three different things every day that you are thankful for 21 days.

And what we know happens is you have, what's called these neural feedback loops in your brain. So they're like roads and you have hundreds and thousands of roads running through your brain. These are thought processes. You had a road Nancy: that said I'm not happy because I don't have a spouse. And you have that road so deeply ingrained that it even popped up when you did have a spouse.

And so whatever road is traveled the most is the one that gets the deepest ruts in your brain. And so in order to create a new road, if we begin a gratitude practice, and that means you actually physically write down three things every day, that you're thankful for. And after 21 days, you actually begin to create a new neural feedback loop in your brain.

And so of course we want you to continue this practice above and beyond the 21 days, but that's how long it takes to get the new loop running. And what happens is the lens through which you view the world begins to change because now all of a sudden, every thing that is right with the world is starting to pop out more.

When I'm taking a run and a beautiful leaf is falling from a tree. I'm noticing it now where, before I didn't and these don't have to be profound gratitudes, they don't have to be big. And we actually, if your audience wants that, I think I did. I sent you the gratitude tracker.

So I actually have a product. Learning and gratitude practices hard for people at first. And I have a little freebie download if you want it. That actually helps them start to think about where they can look for gratitude in their life. So it could be in nature, it could be within their family.

And then we have a 21 day gratitude tracker so that they can begin to write their three things down every single day. So if you think your audience would benefit from that

Nancy:: we'll stick that in the show notes, for sure. Okay. So as people who have listened to my listeners know I have some I always have some caveats when it comes to gratitude because.

I feel like sometimes we, and I'm sure you do too. So I'm interested on your take on this. I'm sometimes we can, and I've been guilty of this as well. And I know my clients are of switching gratitude to positive thinking. And they use it as a way to ignore the negatives in their life. So I want you to talk on that a little bit because people have heard me talk about, I want to hear your take on that.

Kim: I gut check everything. Like I'm somebody who feels how things feel in my body. And so I actually know what you're talking about. So I don't do that normally, but I will say there's been a time or two that I have found myself writing something that I wish was true. Okay. But there's like a cognitive dissonance in me when I do that, because it's actually not a feeling it's not a good feeling of lacking.

Or of wishing it was like that. And so it's really going back to your integrity and saying, Hey, I have to write things that feel true to me. Now, if we want to write affirmations, that's a whole totally different thing. We can talk on that at some point too, cause I'm really a big believer in those, but these need to be things that spark joy right now in your heart.

And they need to feel true and genuine. It can be really small things. I have roses blooming outside my window. My house cleaner came today and cleaned the floor. I got to work outside on my deck today. My dogs were playing my fingers in there fur. We don't have to come up with big, positive, or like big things.

Things need to be true of what our brain actually sees views feels and understands.

Nancy:: Yes. Thank you. I love that. I love that because I always talk about the specificity and the and the truth, the integrity piece. I, I don't know. That's such a powerful thing, because I did a presentation once where I talked about gratitude and how we, and my message of sometimes if we're we can bastardize it.

And and a woman came up to me and she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she was practicing gratitude. So she just kept saying, at least I don't have this. And so many people have it worse than me and I should be grateful. And she started with tears in her eyes was saying, this is the first time I've really.

It faced the breast cancer and that's where gratitude we can. It pulls us. It can pull us into this wishful thinking, or I should be, we use it as a way to beat ourselves up rather than the beautiful way you're talking about it. The specificity and the retraining of the brain and

Kim: like what you were teaching, which is you're allowed to feel your feelings. Yeah. And that's exactly around call this. We do this crazy thing called comparative suffering, and we say I'm not allowed to feel bad or sad about this thing here, because it's small compared to this. So I'm not allowed to have my feelings. Yeah.

Yeah. So we have to stop doing that. Like pain is pain. Suffering is suffering hard as hard and you, and I don't have to compare them to be allowed to feel them. Huh.

Nancy:: And so that's where I think what you're speaking of is the process of mindfully looking at your life and reprogramming those neural pathways and being able to see a new perspective in how your life is going, as opposed to sometimes gratitude is taught.

And this is what I rail against the idea of, if you're having a negative thought, be grateful. You can always find something to be grateful about. So find something to be grateful about, to pull yourself out of that negative thought. Instead of being both can be true. I can be, you can be super mad at your husband right now and angry about something and enjoying the beautiful flowers.

Kim: Yeah. Yeah, you're making me laugh because sometimes I'm a little bit like squirrel off of that movie up and made me laugh because I'm thinking about my affirmations and affirmations are very different than gratitude. So like, when I am frustrated with my husband, I am not going to be like, I am so thankful for my super caring husband yelling like that.

Like one of my affirmations and I kind of giggle, like one of my affirmations that I write every day is I am an exceptional wife, too. But even then, if I'm like ticked at him, i, out of integrity have to write in parentheses, even though this is going to be really hard today (laughter)

Nancy:: I love that. I love that. Yes. I think that is because I do think affirmations can sometimes pull us out of integrity.

Kim: I totally agree.

Nancy:: So talk to me about affirmations. I have I haven't, I want to hear it because you love them. I have a negative response to affirmations for that reason that you just said.

So tell me, tell us about affirmations because you may change my mind.

Kim: No I really I teach the law of attraction. I in my coaching program and I teach that whatever you focus on grows and that you have the ability to streamline your thoughts and reach a certain vibrational level where you begin attracting.

Other things that are of the same vibrational level. So for example I always tell people before I launched my business, I told myself three years before I want to become a motivational speaker and I had never spoken on a stage. I was certainly not a motivational speaker, but for every run that I took for 30 years, or for three years, I ran 30 miles a week.

I. Saw myself on the stage. I saw the people in the crowd. I saw the change happening. I saw them getting results. I saw them needing to hear my message. I saw me being of service. And I always tell people I saw and felt the vision of it. And because of that, I created an inner belief. In myself that this would happen.

And within one year of launching my business, I became a nationally recognized speaker. So what I know Nancy: is that our thoughts create our beliefs about ourselves. So if I'm constantly having thoughts of and I'm going to give you guys an example of this, so your thoughts create your beliefs, create your action.

Your actions create your habits and your habits create your reality. So for example, I had, I'm a runner. I run all these miles, like 35 miles a week. I bike 30 miles a week. I do all of this stuff, but like I am the girl who ate 4 hostess cupcakes. Every single night at 10:00 PM. From the time I was 20, till two years ago, 44.

So like I have had this inner belief that I am never going to be able to eat healthy. All of my friends can eat healthy. All of my friends had some kind of stupid app and they journaled and they kept their food calories. I downloaded the app and within two hours and hit my limit. So I deleted that all something is wrong with you.

Everybody else can do this. Kim is a 44 year old woman who still eats tons of sugar every day. I am flawed. I am broken, I can't do this. I have no willpower. So the way that played out is that became an inner belief. That was an inner belief that Kim simply did not have what it took. And so my thoughts created my belief and my belief created my actions, which meant every night at 10 o'clock.

I would go get my hostess cupcakes out and pour my milk. Yeah, that was a habit. My body mind was trained to do that, to go do that. And it created the reality, which is Kim is still not a healthy eater. She's still, and so what I had to do was first of all, I had to quit beating myself up so much, that I couldn't lie to myself. So I couldn't go around being like. Kim's a healthy eater. I'm a healthy eater. I'm a healthy eater. I couldn't write an affirmation. That was like, I'm a healthy eater. I'm a health cause. That's right.

Nancy:: And that is where many of them go wrong. Yes. Yeah. That has been great clarification

Kim: because they don't really believe it.

They don't because it's a total lie. So like I couldn't write in my affirmation journal every day. I am a healthy eater. Cause I'm like bullshit right here. I added one teeny tiny word. I'm not a healthy eater yet, but I'm working on it. So like my affirmations, what I know is that the more you say something to yourself, And the more you can envision it.

And the more you can attach emotion and feel that inner shift happening, then you have the ability to really create miracles in your life. So I'm not going to lie. One of my affirmations right now is I am a New York times best selling author, and that's a big goal i. And I have major stuckness around it because every time I go to write my book, I scare myself right out of it.

But there is something even deeper inside of me that does feel like this is book is supposed to come to fruition. And so I, I have 12 affirmations that I write every single day and I write the same ones over and I don't just write them, but I see them on my vision board. I envision them on my run.

When I am in an argument with my husband over something and I wrote, I am an exceptional wife today, it does sometimes make me think, how can I show up for him? Exceptional. Even though he seems being a shit right. Or whatever. My husband is an amazing man. He really is. Pretend like he's not, but he is pretty exceptional.

Nancy:: So so take the New York times one, for example, does that. Limit you in some ways. And this is a pure curiosity question, because does that limit you from doing it? Because until you, till you get to the point where it's a New York times, then you're not going to take the steps to do it. So walk me through that.

Kim: I guess for me, I, it, I don't have to be like, I would my biggest goal is to be a New York times. Best-selling author, but honestly, I just want to write my book and get my ideas out there. But my biggest vision that I hold for that, because I guess I believe in gaudy goals so if I fail, I'm going to fell a lot higher than I would without the gaudy goal.

That being said, your affirmation still needs to, if you somewhat need to believe in it, you have to have that resonance of, I don't know how it's going to happen. I don't have to work out all of the details. I just have to train my thoughts, action, effort and energy towards this goal, but also not get so tied up on it that I can't surrender some of it.

Nancy:: Right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, but you can vision that. The difference is you can envision the New York times thing and that feels doable. It feels doable

Kim: . And it doesn't feel like a game changer if I never did.. I'm not going to be less happy if I don't achieve that, that I'm reaching for it because that idea and that dream is birthed in my soul in some form or fashion.

Nancy:: And that's in knowing yourself and knowing that integrity to be able to pull that forth and just cause that goal to me, I like that's I should, if I want to write a book, it needs to be a New York times bestseller. I need to aim high. What you're saying is no, I really. Want this this is important to me.

Kim: Right. And again, it can manifest in different ways. I just, it feels good for me to see it that way. It feels good for me to look on my vision board and see like a book that I put up there. And then the little New York times bestselling author, like I, for whatever reason, feel like what I have to teach and say needs to be bad.

Yeah. Got it. This idea of oh, I'm going to ride on my ceiling. I will make $10 million right here. It's okay. That's like crazy shit, right?

Nancy:: Yes. Yeah. It's way more nuanced. And it also then is, as I'm sure in, you would teach is then you're taking action. Towards doing that.

It's not just throwing it up there and thinking about it on your run, but

Kim: I'm going to bring up my mom, Mary Jo, again, she was like, Kim, you've been using vision boards for 20 years and they work, I see them working like, can you teach me how to make a vision board? So Mary Jo and I sat down and she made a vision board and three months later.

Stepped into the house and said none of that's working, Kim, none of those things are coming true. And I'm like, really? So what have you been doing? Action-wise to work, like manifest, like you cannot just have a desire. You have to have action that backs up your desire. So I'm at the slap a pretty picture on a vision board or a pretty little quote and say, oh, I'm just slap it up there.

And it's magically going to happen. Yeah. There's intention. There's action. There's dream building, all of this stuff goes in to the manifestation of that particular bowl or level of achievement or core desired feeling that you want to feel. I want to write that book because I feel like I have.

Stories to tell that people need to hear. So they don't feel so alone. And you can remember Nancy:, I'm the girl who struggled for years from panic disorder, right? Young adult couldn't walk to my mailbox, couldn't drive my car to Walmart. Couldn't walk into Walmart. Heck I had a relapse two years ago and I went back to some of that, but I'm also the bad-ass that steps on a stage with 2000 people.

And I'm allowed to be both of those.

Nancy:: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I forgot about the panic because where everything, it's not just the one or the other,

Kim: I think, for your listeners to be listening to me and this is what happens to me when I step on a stage and I'm in the $500 dress and I'm in the Hills and the makeup, and I've got this contagious energy for life.

And I can just see the people's faces. They're thinking. This woman has it together. And I haven't feel like your listeners could be thinking like this woman is a total.. This woman, two years ago had the worst relapse in 20 years of panic disorder and struggled to leave her house again.

And so understanding that we can have. Both sides that we don't have to beat ourselves up to. I can be, to be honest, I am both. I am Kim who struggles sometimes and has some issues that other people don't have. And I am Kim, who is this, motivational speaker who has this amazing life. But I also have shitty things in my life too.

It's just important for people to hear that. Cause they can hear the voice behind the microphone and think this woman must have it all together.

Nancy:: totally. And I appreciate that's so true because I think that I, everything you're talking about, I think we really want everything to be easy and simple.

And it's, I'm just going to write, I'm going to do my vision board. I'm going to pull it up out there on the wall and I'm going to do my gratitude practice. Thing's going to be great and forget about the integrity piece. We forget about checking in with the self loyalty and the self-love. And does this fit with me?

Is this serve me moving forward and how am I going to go after this with little tiny baby steps? It's not like someone's going to call you tomorrow. They may, we never know, but they're going to call you tomorrow and be like, Hey, I'm a publisher. Let's do your big. Vision.

Kim: I always feel like I have to justify, like why I'm a happiness coach, because some people do they think oh, she must be full of sunshine, glitter and unicorns.

And I'm like, no, you know why I'm a happiness coach because I suffered greatly for years in my life. I went through extreme trauma and darkness and out of all of that, I birthed the happiness coach. She, as a result, From the trauma that I went through and how I now want to help others not have to endure the darkness for as long as I did.

Nancy:: So I know this is probably a whole other episode, but I just, if you can give, this is going to be hard question. How did you after the relapse with the panic disorder, how did regroup?

Kim: Oh my goodness. So to go back, like I started, I was always an anxious little girl. And then like in high school I started having.

Really traumatic episodes. And we didn't know what they were. I would feel like I was going to faint. I would have feelings of unreality. I had disassociated I didn't know who I was, but I did know who I was. My body trembled. I was sweating, shaking. And so for about seven years, this went undiagnosed because back in the eighties, we didn't know what anxiety disorders were.

And so I was having I had full blown panic disorder with a war phobia that didn't get diagnosed until. I want to say 23 or 24 years old. Wow. So I finally get a diagnosis. I get cognitive behavioral therapy from a therapist. I get on Zoloft, which I will tell you. I still take today and my life got a lot easier and I dove into the self-help world and I started like creating my life from the inside out.

And let me tell you. I am a worker bee when it comes to my life and personal growth, like I will work really hard and I will do the hard stuff to re-emerge as a better version of myself, but even in my thirties. And I've always two steps forward and one and a half steps back, here I'm feeling funny again.

Or, having some episodes they're not huge, but they're significant enough to where I'm concerned. But in 2018 when I was creating, how funny is this? So I, I run Strobel education, which is my education consulting business. And then I run kimstrobel.com, which is my happiness coaching business.

And I was creating my first online coaching program for women in the fall of 2018. And I was running struggle, ed full-time as well. And I had the worst panic attack driving home an hour away. It was the worst attack I've had in 20, 25 years.. That, that set off a chain of events where I just got worse.

I all of a sudden didn't want to go anywhere by myself. I didn't want to go drive five minutes. I didn't want my husband to leave the house. And let me just tell you, I. was mad. I was like, you know what? That lived through years where every five minutes of my day was pure hell, because I felt so bad and incompetent and I couldn't function adults.

And why would you possibly make me endure this? Because I now use my tragedy to help others. I'm doing good work with my mission. And what I did is I went right back to cognitive behavioral therapy. I ordered a bunch of books. I started listening to Dr. Claire Weekes, who had these great videos on anxiety.

I ordered that book that I had told you about, which is rewire the anxious brain. And I literally had to reeducate myself and begin to use all of my tools again. Now I wasn't down for seven years. Like I was the first time I was down for a couple of months still functioning, but it was hard. And I came out of it a lot quicker because I know what this is.

And I just had to revisit and do the work. The other thing that I think has come out of this is I have despised. The part of Kim that has this struggle. I hate her. She is weak. She has derailed my life more times than I can count. And so the way that I have dealt with her over the last probably 15 years is by being this overly ambitious, overly driven achiever personality.

Because that way I could squash that weak part of Kim and keep her in her place. So when I started to come through this relapse, I thought to myself, what is the new level of healing or learning that needed to take place? And what really emerged for me was. I need to practice as you use the term self loyalty, I need to practice self loyalty self-love and self-compassion for all parts of Kim that I don't have to push this struggle a way that it is part of who I am.

And so when I get ready to walk on a stage, now I tell myself, yeah, I'm taking the big, bold, brave Kim up to that stage, but also comes the Kim that sometimes struggles. And one of my affirmations is actually, I am honoring my fierceness while also loving and accepting my vulnerability. Because I have not been good to those parts of Kim who, even though she struggles, she deserves love and kindness and patience and all of those things.

And I don't have to push her way.

Nancy:: Ah, Kim, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that story, because I think we can all relate to that even with maybe, not the level of panic disorder, but just, I wrote down the quote, I wanted to squash her and keep her in her place. And that is, that's what we do to ourselves.

Nancy:: That's just brutal. And yet I can relate to that idea of, any flaw I have. I want to squash it and move past it and get over it. And when we can befriend it and bring it in. Ah so I don't know that it's easier, but there's less struggle.

Kim: There's less struggle and you're allowed to cry.

She deserves space.

Nancy:: Yes. Yes.

Kim: Yeah. Whatever you resist persists. And so she is a big part of who I am now. Listen, I hope she keeps herself in check for the next few years. (laughter)

Nancy:: We got big goals. We got to go after,

but I do think that I love them. I love your message. That you're that it's the big, bold goal. And this self acceptance, self love piece. Like we don't see that often in this world of self-help and personal development and coaching and all that stuff, but those are working together, usually one or the other.

It's the warm, fuzzy self-love person and the big, bold goal person. Binding them, I think is truly where the magic is. Yeah.

Kim: I'm working on it girlfriend, but

Nancy:: It's a amazing message. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability in sharing that and sharing the happiness formula and. And helping us feel less out of control with this default happiness thing.

Kim: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I think we just have to embrace the shit show that we are.

Nancy:: I think there's so much power in that, that, that needs to be a podcast.

Kim: I was thinking, I don't know if I've named my Facebook, I have a free Facebook group for women.

Called Finds Joy, which is the name of my podcast. And I was thinking the other day, because somebody was telling me about this new co this little committee of friends that meet every other day, they're called the itty bitty shitty committee. And I'm like, they meet me for just 15 minutes to just process and get some of those.

, feelings out. And I was like, wouldn't that be a great name for a Facebook group or a puff?

Nancy:: Yeah, that would be, that'd be awesome. beause that's where we need that, that raw honesty of here's the shit show. And here's the other cool stuff is we need more of that. Nah, Kim, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and chat with us.

And I am, we're going to put the gratitude work in the show notes. I'm also going to link to the rewire, the anxious brain, in the show notes, because that I bought the book and it's really powerful and I think it will help. You guys think about anxiety in a different way than we've been taught?

Kim: Definitely like my social links, if they want to join the Facebook group for free, where I show up and do mini little happiness trainings and we just do real talk in there. And then I'll send you like my Instagram handle, which is Kim struggle, joy. So you can have some of those, if they wish to embrace the messiness of who they are, but actually, we're all just one daring day at a time we're trying to do better.

And so we have to just be who we are while also. Acknowledging that sometimes life is hard.

Nancy:: Exactly. What's your website?

Kim: so it's Kim strobel.com and then if they happen to be a school teacher, I have struggle education.com.

Nancy:: Awesome. Great. Just in case, people are like listening.

Yeah, they're listening to it in the kitchen while they're cooking dinner and they don't have time to go to the show notes. So I feel that people okay. Thank you, Kim. It was great chatting with you.

Kim: You're so welcome. I appreciate you having me on your show.

Nancy:: This interview really showed me the power of the question underneath the question.

We spend so much time and energy answering the surface questions. When the insight and power comes from asking a better question, this better question concept also gets us out of that black and white thinking that many of our questions put us in. And many of us have strong opinions about gratitude and affirmations.

Some might even argue they can be a bit blackened. But through our conversation and asking a deeper question, I was able to add a little gray to my black and white thinking this week. I challenge you to ask yourself a better question. When you find yourself spinning on one of your standard questions, dig a little deeper.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is. 

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

Episode 152: Therapy: Committing to Doing it Differently

In this episode, I’m talking with therapist Riva Stoudt, about therapy committing to doing therapy differently.

I didn’t always know I wanted to be a therapist. It took me a while to ADMIT it out loud that I wanted to be a therapist (I was 34 before I got my license). I honestly have a love-hate relationship with the world of therapy and psychology. It endlessly fascinates me—and yet the industry as a whole is notoriously dysfunctional and, at times, archaic. 

At 25, I was getting ready to start my second year of my Master’s in Counseling. I had registered for classes and was less than a week from starting when out of the blue, I decided to drop out. I still remember walking from my apartment to the registrar’s office to withdraw. It was a totally irrational decision and 100% based on my gut which was SCREAMING at me to withdraw. I didn’t know why… I just knew I couldn’t go back and continue my studies. 

Seven years later, 4 different jobs, and after completing a different Masters’ Degree, I decided to complete my studies and earn my Master’s in Community Counseling. This was also a gut decision—and a particularly amazing one because miraculously, I re-enrolled just under the deadline where I would have had to start my studies over. 

What happened in those 7 years? A lot of my own work, my own soul searching, my own therapy and a commitment to doing it differently. Committing to doing therapy differently was how I could ultimately make the choice to continue the work and it’s why I’m here today.

It’s rare that I meet another therapist who has this same commitment which is why I was so excited to bring you my conversation with Riva Stoudt of Into the Woods Counseling.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What inspired Riva to become a therapist

• The changes we both would like to see in the therapy profession

• Positivity culture and how it can keep people from healing and making progress

• Some tips on finding a good therapist

Resources mentioned:

• Into the Woods Counseling

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Transcript:

Riva: It's hard to say things like I was being passive aggressive. Everybody does that, but to say it and to just acknowledge it and sit with it, even at that level is so hard. And so , if we can't do that for ourselves in our own relationships, in our own lives and look at those impulses that we have and how we do or don't succeed in managing them, how are we possibly going to sit with our clients when they tell us some awful story about something they did?

And if they're be isn't the place for that, then.

Nancy: I didn't always know I wanted to be a therapist. It took me a while to actually admit it out loud that I wanted to be a therapist. I was 34 before I even got my license. I honestly have a love, hate relationship with the world of therapy and psychology. It endlessly fascinates me.

And yet the industry as a whole is notoriously dysfunctional. And at times, arcade. At 25, I was getting ready to start. My second year of my masters in counseling, I had registered for classes and was less than a week from starting when, out of the blue, I decided to drop out. I still remember walking from my apartment to the registrar's office to withdraw.

It was a totally irrational decision and a 100% based on my gut, which was scary, screaming at me to withdraw. I didn't know why I just knew I couldn't go back and continue. My studies seven years later, four different jobs. And after completing a different master's degree, I decided to complete my studies and earn, and my master's in community counseling.

This was also a gut decision and a particularly amazing one because miraculously, I re-enrolled just under the deadline where I would have had to start my studies over. What happened in those seven years, a lot of my own work, my own soul, searching my own therapy and a commitment to doing it differently.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed hustle on the cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Yep. Committing to doing therapy was how I could ultimately make the choice to continue the work.

And it's why I'm here today. It's rare. I meet another therapist who has this commitment, which is why I was so excited to bring you my conversation with Riva stout of, into the woods counseling Riva. And I dive into all things therapy. We talk about what inspired her to be a therapist, the changes we would like to see in the therapy profession, positivity culture, and how it can keep people from healing and making progress and tips on finding a good therapist.

Riva inspired me so much. A few takeaways I hope will inspire you. No one has the answers for your life. A therapist's role is to listen and help you get to know yourself better. Their job is not to tell you what to do, have all the answers or heal your past their job is to help you find the tools that work best for you to unpeel the onion that is your life.

We are all human. We all have blind spots, traumas, and places we need help. And it reminds me of a quote by rom Doss that guides my work with clients. We are all just walking each other. I'm so excited today to bring to you Riva stout. She and I are going to be talking about all things therapy, which is just going to be awesome.

And I think in a, be a little eye opening for a lot of us. So Riva, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Okay. I hear from your bio, you are a third generation therapist and it is part of your family business. Tell me what drew you to becoming a therapist?

Riva: , so I actually was determined not to cause I was going to forge my own identity and my own path.

So my mom's parents, so both my grandparents were actually psychiatrists. Back in the day when psychiatrists were the ones who did therapy and no one else did therapy in the sixties. So they, they did that. And then my mom was a school counselor and worked with kids of all ages throughout her career.

And we had all sorts of books lying around the house about psychology and trauma, which was, in the early nineties, trauma was like a very cutting edge idea, and read a lot of these books probably before it was age appropriate for me but it gave me a head start. And then when I went away to college, I was like, no, I'm, I'm going to be an artist. I don't want to, I don't want to follow this path. That that is. What my family has done before I wanted to do my own thing, but you can't get rid of that interest in people, and they're everywhere and it's fascinating.

And I took a few psychology classes and social psychology, which I still think is a major influence for me as a therapist too. And then I had this moment in my twenties where I was talking to a friend about a relationship that he was in, where you know the person that he was in the relationship with was treating him really badly.

And my friend kept talking about all these reasons why he thought if he just stuck around long enough, it could change and all of this. And so at some point I was trying to, snap him out of this relationship trans that he was in.

And I said something about how we teach people, how it's okay to treat us, and that he was teaching this person that it was okay to treat him like shit, basically. And there was this pause and then my friend looked at me and said, I never thought about it like that before. And that was the moment.

It was like, it was really like a single moment where it was like, I heard that and the clouds parted and it was like, this is what I want to do. I want to help people see things in a new way and change their perspective and in a way that really impacts how they live their lives. That was that. And then I, that summer.

Started, signing up for classes that I needed for prerequisites for grad school and all of that stuff, all of the hoops that we have to jump through so many hoops and never looked back after that.

Nancy: And then did you just go right to private practice?

Riva: No, actually worked in crisis for a while first.

. And I feel like every year in crisis intervention is like five years in regular I'm sure. . That for a couple of years and then started my private practice overlapping while I was still doing some work on the crisis team and then shifted over.

Nancy: That's one of my so I call the inner critic a monger and one of my monger messages, I went right out of grad school into private practice. And one of my Monger messages is I am not a real therapist cause I've never done crisis work because that's what real therapists do

Riva: All right. Oh, that's so funny because it's just, so it's such a different mindset, like to switch over from crisis to private practice, even though private practice is what I always wanted to do.

And that was the ultimate goal. It was such a weird mindset shift from okay, how do I help this person through the next 12 to 48 hours? To actually, sitting with somebody on an ongoing basis and making some major life changes. So . It's not, of course there's transferable skills, many transferable skills, but at the same time, it's a whole different world, so .

Nancy: Very different job. . Okay, so this is going to start us off in this competition. And this is a very broad question. What do you wish you could change about the therapy industry?

Riva: What do I wish I could change about the therapy industry? So many things. Starting from the super broad wide angle lens, I wish that we had universal health care in America.

So that being the first thing that I am always, as much as I think so many of us try to make ourselves accessible through, having sliding scale or pro bono or donating our time or advocacy work or whatever. It's not an individual problem, any one of us can solve that, like that access to therapy is is so limited.

And so that is something that always nags at me is I wish more people had access to good therapy more of the time. So that, that being the backdrop of everything and then, within the field I really would like to see, and I think to some degree this is happening but I would really like to see the field just moving towards a more social justice informed, racism, informed sexism and informed.

All of that bringing that lens to our therapeutic work and understanding more about the context we're situated in, moving away from this idea that we can still get into of humans as these atomized individuals who it's all within. It's all, everything is a matter of individual choice and mindset.

And if you just change that, then you know, then that you'll be fine, looking more at the systems and the material conditions. I think also too I think therapists, So many of us come from a background where there's a lot of family trauma, family dysfunction, and I think sometimes we really bring that to the way we relate to each other.

I think there's simultaneously within the field, there can be a real fear of conflict and it needs to be nice all the time. And then at the same time, when conflict does emerge, then it's just like this knock-down drag-out, aggressive, like everybody hating each other, especially with now with social media.

I think that this is very it's an outlet for that kind of energy. And so I think we're not good at disagreeing with each other and being in relationship with each other at the same time, just in the field. And so I would really like to see us developing more of a culture of vigorous debate, vigorous disagreement, where we're also not just throwing each other away all the time.

. So I that's an evolution I would like to see. And I think that the therapy industry has that in common with many others. Right now that's a place we need to get better,

Nancy: . for sure. . Definitely. It is a toxic culture and that is, like I related so much to your story, of how you got started.

I actually started my graduate school and then dropped out because I was like, I can't deal with this culture. Like it was so competitive yet supportive yet passive aggressive, that weird mix. And I was, and it wasn't until I entered, I was in my thirties when I finally went back because I was like, I'm strong enough in myself that I'm not looking that I can forge my own path.

I'm not looking. To this group to be mentors to me and help me figure it out. Because when I was, it was : bad.

Riva: Totally. . That's super relatable to me. I went back. So I did my undergrad at the usual, I went at 18 and finished at 22 and then I went to grad school. I started just about a month before my 30th birthday.

And I feel like having waited a little bit was. So much better because just as you said, I felt very much more settled in myself. I wasn't looking for validation and mentorship in that environment nearly as much. And it made getting through well. And when you combine the therapy industry with academia, like those two cultures collide all kinds of craziness. So , I think you need some inner strength to get through that intact,

Nancy: but you're right in this, that is, that is a stereotype that all therapists, most therapists have come from their own trauma and that's why, but I think it's accurate because why else would you be drawn?

To this world of listening to people's problems and helping them figure it out, if you weren't a little broken,

Riva: Intense interest, I it's, it doesn't just come to people like randomly. I don't think at all. I think it's very much we have a lot of us have a lot of early experiences in common, I think.

Nancy: Yes. . And I was actually just reading, which is a really old school book the drama of the gifted child. And I was just pick that up and was reading it and it just, she talks about that very fact that we are all and then the danger comes, which I see all the time that we reenact our, we become to our clients, the parent that we had.

And, like we want that the support from our clients. I am not saying that right.

Riva: No. . I get what, , it's an incredible book. She, , the way she talks about just the reproduction of those cycles and then . That we learn that like level of attunement to other people from having had to attune that way to our own parents and then, oh my God, that just comes into the therapy room in a million different ways, have you ever read her sons and work? , I haven't.

Nancy: I haven't picked up the book.

Riva: It’s fascinating. I, cause he's also a psychotherapist and his perspective is so interesting just in that, he says about how she did not succeed as a mother and being, breaking that cycle that she describes in the book.

And yet it was her work and her insight that also helped give him the freedom to understand and to try to break out of that cycle himself. , super fascinating. And just, I think an example of just how freaking complex everything is with all this stuff.

Nancy: And that's where I think if we're not owning that as therapists that, like I know part of what makes me really good at my job is I'm in there with them.

Not, I'm not, I'm saying like I am, I, I'm working on my own anxiety. I'm trying to heal my own mongers, everything I'm saying to my clients to do, I'm doing it to it's not like I've been healed, but I've, I've gone to therapy my entire life. I've been around a lot of therapists who act like they are.

Riva:

. My, my motto is just to try to stay one step ahead in my own healing. And just to try to keep up with that process so that I'm not I'm not lagging, but also at the same time. It doesn't get done. It's not oh, here's my, I'm going to look up my solution and my solutions book and give it to you.

And I think like when you're doing good therapy, you're actually asking your clients to do some really hard things. And how do we have the right to ask that, if we're not willing to do that ourselves.

Nancy: . Preach. Amen. I totally agree. Okay. Which that brings me to one of my biggest pet peeves.

And I think it's up there with you on, in the therapy industry and. Coaching the whole freaking self-help transformational, whatever. And I don't, and I'm not as firm. I guess I don't, I didn't know it was a problem in the therapy industry. I'm talking about positive thinking and positive psychology.

I didn't realize it was such a problem in a therapy industry until I heard you talking about that. So share more about your thoughts on that.

Riva: , it's interesting because I think I think there's so many layers to positivity culture, like I think the most obvious layer being this sort of very simplified, like the secret, like you control your thoughts and manifest and everything, positive will come to you and all of that.

And in those aspects of various cultures and subcultures that really shut down any expression of difficult emotion, painful emotion, et cetera. And I do think that, hopefully we don't see a lot of therapists doing that. But I do think there's a deeper layer where we are so locked in as a culture, I think as a broader culture to this black and white thinking of like good and bad people, wanting to toss people in one basket or another.

And I think as therapists, we like to think that we don't do that. But then I think we often don't show a willingness to really acknowledge and. And talk about and sit honestly, with just what it really means to be just a mixed bag as a person, which we all are, we're all a mixed bag.

And so how I see it playing out often is that therapists want to put a positive spin or like an understanding a spin of kind of. Understanding certain kinds of behaviors as the result of trauma or is the result of previous harm in a way that skirts really close to minimizing or even excusing them sometimes.

I don't know what your experience is working with therapists as clients that's a whole, that could be its whole own episode. But I noticed that when I have therapists as clients and they come in talking about relationships that they've had or family experiences where somebody has really harmed them is immediately followed by this explanation where the therapist that takes this takes the person's perspective and is but I understand, that as a kid, they went through all this stuff and it was really hard.

And I'm like, okay, that may all very well be true, but like, why are we just sailing right past the impact that it had on you and the harm that was done, and the, the perhaps negative intentions that came from that person, whether or not they were a result of trauma, that's real. And I, and so I notice it, with people who are our therapists when they are my clients, but also I think I see it happening with therapists with their own clients.

Especially I see this a lot with couples actually, where there's a member of the couple is getting away with some really like egregious provocative kind of behavior. And that's. That's, people get under each other's skin that is that is part of relationships and like people needle each other and they get into power struggles and all of that.

And I see often with couples therapy, that sometimes I find couples, therapists want to put the best, most positive spin on that partner's behavior. Or even both partner's behavior instead of really confronting. You're being an asshole right now. You're getting away with it, there's just some letting off the hook that happens. And I've had, I've had clients come to me to work on childhood trauma where they talked about, my last therapist just kept talking about how my dad was like that because of the trauma he'd experienced as a kid.

And it's that's not really that. , it's not enough. It doesn't actually help that client undo the impact of the trauma that was per petrated against them. And I think that to some degree how I see it is I think that it's a. I think it can be a defense mechanism against some of the secondary trauma we experience and the stories that we hear.

I think that we, when I think back on some of the stuff I've heard, I've, I, of course, like you, we hear hair raising stuff in this work and I've heard, I've had clients tell me about stuff that they've done that is really upsetting. And I think in that context, it's easier to S to go to the explanation and say it's because of this this childhood trauma it's because of this other thing, et cetera, et cetera.

Rather than really sitting with wow. My client did something really mean and sadistic to their kid or my, client's partner is, making their lives. Really unpleasant purpose, that's, it's hard to sit with that.

Nancy: , because I also noticed they get, sometimes I'll have clients that'll come in, a lot of my clients love dropping the narcissism, like I saw, my husband's and our husbands and my brother's a narcissist, but and I, but, and they get really caught up in the diagnosis and doing all the research and figuring out, naming the stories and seeing the connections and intellectualizing that process.

And sometimes they're jumping from therapist to gather all the narcissism information they can. . But I don't really care about the diagnosis. Let's talk about how you feel and you know what that's doing for you, about the impact.

Riva: And the actual behavior versus okay, we can put the, NPD stamp on this person. What does that do? . Yes.

Nancy: . What do we have there? But that is, but I think there is this problem of intellectualizing everything, change your story, get a different mindset, look at it from a different lens.

Rather than, and much of what I'm working with my clients on, and I think is general good therapy is how do I build a self loyalty to myself taking in the larger cultural . Conditions I've been raised with and have affected how I see the world.

Riva: Yes. I love what you just said about I love the self loyalty piece and I love what you just said about the change, your story idea, because I think I think actually, of course, many of my clients, I think very much do need to change their story, but I think that's because they need it to be their story needs to reflect the truth better.

Not because they need to pick a a nicer story, and I very well said, I think that we, or let me backtrack a second there. So I think I actually often find myself saying to clients when we're going through some of the trauma, especially the relational trauma is I think I often say something right.

I think you are, telling me the, the most flattering version or the best version of this story, but I don't know if that's the most true, truthful version, and here's what does it mean if we actually look at some of the other versions of the story that feel harder to look at more painful, but actually might be a better reflection of the truth.

And I think that can be a much more freeing Point of view to look at one's narrative from because then there's, you're not engaged in that avoidance process. It's not oh, I have to construct this narrative that makes everybody look as good as possible. That's the one I'd be more comfortable with it's okay.

How do I sit in the real truth of all of this? And I think that comes back to the self loyalty piece to me, because then if I'm willing to really look at myself, the people in my life, my actions, my history from a really truthful to the best that I can accomplish from a really truthful point of view, then I think that's a way of really embodying that allyship to oneself that I'm not going to, I'm not going to avoid the truth for the sake of, making myself comfortable.

I'm going to sit with myself. And the difficulty of all that is and has been, which is a big task for all of us, but I think more genuinely transformative one..

Nancy. So the idea change your story. I say in air quotes to be look at it. That's used largely in the context of make it be more positive.

Let's explain this away and you're saying change your story. Look at it. A different lens. Let's go a little deeper on this. Look at the yucky stuff that we're trying to, that you're, we're trying to intellectualize a way in dive into those feelings, which is what I found was so fascinating about Alice Miller.

Is that her name that here she's written this phenomenal book back to the drama of a gifted child. She's written this phenomenal book about reprogramming childhood trauma and, or the need to do she doesn't, it's not really a how to, but she. Couldn't do it completely in her life and ended up passing it onto her son, which is what she rails against in the book.

And it's just, is the, in some ways in reading the book, it's so disappointing to go oh crap. No matter how much I look at this, I still am going to have blind spots. But I definitely think her, had she not, and I'm not saying, oh my gosh, she was an amazing person.

So it doesn't matter that she abused her son. That's not what I'm saying, but but she did some amazing work. In unhooking as much as she could.

Riva: And I think she, I really believe that , it was very much before her time, like writing about that kind of stuff, in the mid 20th century, I think was I don't think there was a real culture among people who were involved in psychology at the time who could really receive the weight of what she was getting across.

I think that it having been a very male dominated field up to that point and, just the influence of Freud and all the. The prominent male thinkers. And then, it's not that there, of course wasn't an emphasis on childhood at that time. Of course there was, but it felt very much there was a, there was even at that point, that sort of intellectualized rarefied, we're going to talk about it in terms of complexes.

And I, I think Alice Miller was really ahead of her time in talking about, I'm going to look at what's actually happening. What is the what's actually happening between parent and child. And I think about that book now. One of my most important influences and teachers around this stuff that we're talking about now is David Schnarch.

I don't know if you're super familiar with him. So he's a couples therapist primarily. And how do you spell his name? So it's S C H N a R C H. And so he's primarily in the couples worlds but he has recently done this incredible deep dive into the neurobiology of trauma and how the brain and has this incredible book brain talk that I'm just constantly I bought copies to give to people.

So I'm constantly pushing that book and I use a lot of his model inside my practice with my clients. And. And he talks a lot about this idea of mind mapping, how we internalize maps of other people's minds. And sometimes the pictures that we internalize of other people's minds can be pretty terrifying.

And awful, and how you can observe these dynamics playing out between people. And when I think about Alice Mueller's book and some of the examples she gave in the book, I'm like, wow, this is exactly what he's talking about now using this neuro-biological lens that she had no way of having at the time, because neurology was barely a thing.

So , so I think in some ways she was a little bit personally disadvantaged because she could see all of this stuff. And then there was no context for then what do you do with it? Zero at the time, there was no trauma therapy. There was nothing. So . Hopefully if she had lived in 2020, it would have been a different outcome, but who knows?

Nancy: So we've we were talking before I hit record about kind of the changes in therapy in, just in the differences in our generations or our worlds and how you were saying, oh, like the mask of the therapist is, this is a, a blank slate. And then and I was saying that a lot of my colleagues still do the blank slate right world.

And how I, that I just think that is just. Aw drives me crazy because I just don't feel like that is how good therapy works.

Riva: It's also just not possible. Always communicating something about who you are.

Nancy: Yes. And so I think, and still to this day, even though clients will say to me, because I share of my own life, like stuff that's happening not a ton, but I do even now see, I have a huge complex.

Riva: It's so hard to even say that we go against this norm.

Nancy: . The norm is so strong. Like it is…Strong. And so the fact that I share stories with clients, I'll be like, oh, I'm such a terrible therapist, even though they're like, that was so helpful. Thank you for letting me know only one or whatever it still is, put into us not to do that.

So I wanted to hear just what, how you see therapy changing with your peers and the differences that you're seeing and how it's hopefully.

Riva: . So I went to Lewis and Clark for grad school. And it's has its issues like any institution and academia, again, a whole, we're rural. But one of the great things about the program is that it is explicitly a social justice program.

. So we, that idea of the blank slate was thrown out from the very beginning. And they really did make it a norm in the program to incorporate, that each class it's not oh, you go to all the classes and then here's the social justice class. Every teacher was expected to be incorporating that into their curriculum to varying levels of success.

It was very much like lip service, but some of the professors really did, I think, especially, I just have to give so much credit to the adjuncts who are working for so little pay. They love it and are practicing it and really made an effort to bring in relevant material about actually, what does it look like to incorporate social justice into your practice, not your theoretical practice that you haven't been doing for three weeks.

And so that was a great. Place to be an emerging therapist, because we were really encouraged to think about our own personal history is not just, family and and immediate relationships, but what does it mean to be white? What does it mean to be a person of color as a therapist with white clients?

What does it mean to be a white therapist with clients of color or, and any variety of combinations? Like how do, how does it change what's happening in the therapy room when, each of those pieces is different. And and I live in Portland there's a strong social justice therapist community here, which is great that people who are really aware of the impact of power and privilege and identity on the therapeutic process.

And so I think I, I'm sure I, to some degree I live in a bit of a bubble because I'm like, oh, things are changing. This is really good, to some degree, that's, I'm sure, just part of the community that I'm working within. But I do see, people talking about that even in the larger therapist community, I think more than certainly 10 years ago or 20 years ago, And so I'm excited by that, just from the standpoint of honestly if nothing else, it helps you do better therapy.

When I I felt so grateful just during this past summer. So of course we're in this moment where black lives matter has really erupted in a new way and it's really powerful movement. And I saw a lot of white therapists really scrambling to know how to, how what do we do? How do I address this?

Like how I don't feel like it's okay for me to not say anything, especially if I am a white therapist working with black clients, but then what do I say? And I felt I felt really lucky not just in terms of my grad school education, but just in terms of having had a background in activism and.

Learn from a lot of really amazing black and people of color activists around being less fearful and talking about this stuff, so I just felt so much more equipped going into session, last month with my clients of color and really saying I know this must be affecting you, let's talk about like how this is bringing up racial trauma, if you want to.

And if not, we'll just continue with what we were doing before, but and not really missing a beat. And so if only for that reason, right? To be a blank slate in that moment would have been w it would have created a therapeutic rupture rather than to go in and say Okay. , like I'm a white therapist and this is like a situation we're positioned differently.

And we're going to navigate this explicitly and talk about it and create a space where that's the fullness of you as a person, as being welcomed into the room. And I'm not pretending that's irrelevant, right? . .

Nancy: Because that was interesting. And even some of my some of my white clients.

When they would bring up what was happening and then I would engage and we would start talking. They were like, oh, I didn't know. And I'm like, , this is the work. And I think that's an interesting stereotype of I'm just talking about individual, like I love how you're saying we need to be expanding this beyond just I'm an individual and I'm make individual actions, or to my family of origin, but to the larger cultural, patriarchal norms that we are living and that are affecting us.

And how that shows up.

Riva: And as individuals, we carry all that stuff with us. . It's not like in a box somewhere else. .

Nancy: Which has been interesting, and I, so getting into more of this, the politics. I think that's been something I've noticed in my space, especially since Trump was elected that people would come into my office.

People would talk to me before they went down. We went into therapy and more than not, they were asking me why I political my politics, which I just was, and I live in Ohio, this is a red state. Like we are Trump country. There's blue and then red, but yes,

Riva: It's just that our population is all concentrated in those areas. . But,

Nancy: That had never happened to me where someone, ask and would say, I don't think I'd feel safe talking to someone who, voted for Trump or supported him which was just really interesting. And I also ran into the opposite where a client. I was pretty vocal about in session, especially about who I was, who I was voting for. And in a group I was running at the time, just assumed everyone was going to vote for Hillary and got into trouble when I had individual client. And then they had individual sessions and one of them had voted for Trump and we took much of the session was discussing that.

And I don't, and I don't know that I would have, I probably wouldn't have assumed that everyone was going to vote for Hillary, but I don't think I, I doing an over, I probably wouldn't, have made the assumption, but I still would have shared my own viewpoint in there because that's what she was upset about is that I assumed.

Riva: Okay. Okay. Gotcha. .

Nancy: . because she in her mind had really good reasons for voting

Nancy: Why wouldn't, of course, that's right. That's where we do it. But I think that, that is interesting, that to me was the first time that politics entered the therapy room. But in reality, they're there all the time.

Riva: Exactly. Exactly. . And I think that's, what's been so interesting about the past, almost four years wild is that, I think we're starting to see more and more the way. With that election and the way things have gone since then people are starting to make more of that connection where it's oh, it's not who you vote for.

And then, like you think about that once every four years and that's politics, right? It's the context of our lives, where that occurs and it's not it's again, it's just not something you put in a box and set aside. It's something that is really impacting people's lives and all of our relationships.

And it's pulling the veil off, I think in that way of how we think about what politics are and how they're integrated into our lives or not, and how they're integrated then into therapy or not. ,

Nancy: the holistic. Viewpoint of it, it's fascinating to me. So this, I just had this thought, which is not related to anything. I'm going to go back to positive thinking and going into the dark side, because I think the challenge with that is if you don't have a therapy, a therapist who is in therapy and doing their own work, it's very hard for that therapist or anyone to hold the empathy space that is needed.

Yes. And not jump in and try to rescue someone who's going into that door. Space. Yes,

Riva: I that's absolutely true. And they need to be doing not only doing the work, but doing the right work themselves, and yes, I think that's, it's what you said about going into the empathy space and really holding that is, is something I've thought about a lot.

With respect to this question of kind of the darker side of human nature, human behavior, however you want to frame it. And because again, it goes back to that sort of black and white thinking. Good and bad kind of thinking where, okay, I'm going to if say I have a client who's sitting in front of me describing something they did, that was really shitty and really driven by some, crappy motives and some intent harmful intent.

Let's say so I could, one of the things I could do is I could lean away from it and try to put this like childhood trauma, spin on it or whatever, whatever version. And I could talk with them about why they think they did that. What happened in their past that made them want to whatever.

And that to me is bypassing it maybe to get there eventually. Sure. But to just jump to that is bypassing or I could bypass it by, maybe I just write them off as they're narcissist and they have, this, whatever diagnosis, then they're just an asshole and that's it, which is another way of bypassing it.

So to really, but to really sit to sit and really see someone in their worst behavior to see someone at their worst, or to see someone describing themselves when they are at their worst and to really sit with it and to not throw the person away and to be invested in helping them become better. And to have the level of compassion and the level of accountability and the level of courage to be in that space with someone is incredibly difficult. And I certainly have not succeeded at it. In all the opportunities that I have had like we, we are confronted with those opportunities, somewhat regularly, I think.

Hopefully and we're not going to succeed in all of them, but to do that, to succeed some of the time and to succeed, hopefully more of the time as we go along really does mean in my experience that I have to learn to sit with and hold that stuff within myself and within my own relationships and within my own marriage, and I'm about to I'm six months pregnant.

So in my parenting, so that will be a whole new ball game of that, and to and we don't have a lot of encouragement and support and doing that. I think it's hard for people. And I see this every day with clients, but just in any body in general, it's hard to say things like, oh, I, I was being passive aggressive.

Like I did XYZ, like my husband and I were arguing about the dishes or whatever. And then I did XYZ because I was being passive aggressive and I wanted to get back at him. Everybody does that stuff, but to say it and to just acknowledge it and sit with it, even at that level is so hard.

And so , if we can't do that for ourselves in our own relationships, in our own lives and look at those impulses that we have and how we, do or don't succeed in managing them. . How are we possibly going to sit with our clients when they tell us some awful story about something they did and if they're happy, isn't the place for that then what is?

Nancy: But that's when I started becoming a really great therapist, if I do say so myself was when I started really showing up for myself when I really started recognizing, okay, there is no perfect here and owning with clients of, oh, I didn't do that. I, I don't have to be like Oh I intellectually bypassed you, but I, but the next week when they come in to be like, let's start here.

Riva: I think I think I went by something it's gone by. . . Totally.

Nancy: . I think that is so important to recognize that I'm going to mess it up, but I got to circle back. You have the ability to notice when I messed up and how can I fix that if it's possible and what do I need to do? And that only happens in the therapy room when you've done it in your own life.

Yes, exactly.

Riva: Exactly. Like it's if you're starting to get into that practice of better self confrontation and it gives you that, it's like anything else, it's that muscle you're exercising and then you're more able to do it with clients. You're more able to confront yourself with them and to confront them and to encourage them to confront themselves, which is to me where so much of the power of really good therapy comes from.

.

Nancy: , definitely. I totally agree. Okay. So if someone is looking to. And I get that. I get this question all the time. Like I want to work with a therapist on something that's not in my wheelhouse, how do I start? Where do I start? How do I do this? And so then you go to psychology today and you see the 50 billion people that are doing it.

How would you recommend someone? What are your tips ?

Riva: On finding like the right therapist for finding a good therapist? I think, I really think it's so hard and I am just the aside is that I just wish that Therapists were, I think this is another area of courage, just better at writing their profiles and websites to reflect who they authentically are.

And I don't know. Do you know Laura Long at all now she has a great program called your badass therapy practice that I went through at the beginning of 2019. And there's so much encouragement around showing up authentically in your marketing. And it's so easy to create that to do that from like a cynical oh, it's the marketing, it's all about the money perspective, but truly since I have improved my marketing, the, my best fit clients find me so much more easily.

And so I think there's so much we need to do on the therapist side of that. But in terms of, in the absence of that for now, in terms of a good fit I think there is so much about the more willing you are as a client to show up courageously like in the consult or like in the first session and really lay on the line, what it is you're dealing with, which I know is terrifying.

I'm a client too. I know how easy it is to even when we're seeking therapy, to go in and want to put our best face forward. For some reason, even though we're there to theoretically dump out all our crap and figure out what to do with it. But I think to go in. Really willing to lay it on the line as much as you can and see if the therapist seems like they're able to contain that.

I think that we there's so many lists of questions, right? I'm sure there's. I can tell when a potential client has Googled it and is reading the bullets and questions about what to ask a potential therapist. And it's very cute and I totally get it. And I, it's like when I was looking for a midwife, I Googled the list of questions.

You ask a midwife. But I think sometimes we give our intuition short shrift. If you go in and lay it all on the line and you have someone who can really see that you can really see they're sitting with all that you brought in and then. Not afraid of it. They're not weird about it.

They're not shrinking away from it. They're just really leaning towards you and ready to take it on. Then I, that to me is a better sign of a good fit than any particular answer that you could that you could get to any particular question. I think also having said all that, the the particular question that I think should be should the therapist should have a good answer for if you go in and say like, how would you approach X, if the therapist doesn't have a good answer or they're not willing to say, I don't know, that's not a great sign to me, we should be able to, I think a therapist that's the right fit for somebody.

We'll be able to say not like here's steps a through Z to say here's where I'd go in. Here's the Trailhead. I see, I have internal family systems training. We talk a lot about trail heads. And so if I'm sitting with a client in a consult and I don't see trail heads, like that's probably not the right client, and so I should be able to articulate what those are and say here's, here are some places we might start. And so I think that's a, that's an important an important sign. If you go into a consultor for a session with someone that they are able to articulate something about their sense of direction that the therapist is and then it's like, when I have a consult with someone and there's somebody comes in I don't do OCD, for example, like that's just not my specialty.

And I think it needs, specialty approach. And so somebody comes in and says I need help with OCD. And what would you do for that? I would be like, I will get you a great referral, so that's that's important too.

Nancy: , because I love what you said about trusting your intuition because I think too often, we cause I've, totally done this in picking a therapist, we go in and think, oh, the therapist knows everything. And I'm just the lowly person and ignore. And I'm talking from how quickly they return your phone call to how quickly they set up. If they have a con consult or, all of the things that emails they send you the, what their message says, like paying attention to all the little clues and being like, does this fit me?

And even if you don't know what that means to be to get grounded enough to be like, this is a person I'm going to be spewing my guts to. So I better have a connection. And if I go in there being like, Ooh, they have to know everything, then it's going to be a pro.

Riva: Totally. . And just the reality of knowing that.

We aren't the right fit for everybody. We aren't everything to everyone. And I think that, that's another thing that I think sometimes we give lip service to, but then, I do think therapists often try to be everything to everyone. And we just aren't. I know, and I, and increasingly, as my practice matures and I mature as a therapist I have a stronger sense of who are the people that I really that I am at my best with, and that.

Be at their best with me. That's not the same as who it's going to be for another therapist, which is great. There's, , exactly.

Nancy: That's the, , because I know when when a client comes in and is talking about severe trauma from their childhood and I'm like, you need to go work with someone that works with that.

And I think a lot of therapists have the why, therapy, trauma, that's what we do.

Riva: . Totally. Or, . , for sure. Or I should be able to, work with every personality type or whatever, and it's actually it's funny the thinking about that's what we do as therapists.

So another thing right. Is like depression is that's what therapists treat depression or whatever. I actually really don't do severe depression. And I actually don't. Work well with clients who are severely depressed. And that unfortunately is something I had to learn by working with clients who were severely depressed early on and realizing actually this is not I'm not doing a great job.

This is not the best scenario for me to apply my skills. And there are great therapists out there who specialize in severe depression, and that is where these clients belong. And I'm so grateful that there are people out there who work well with people who have severe depression, who I now can send folks to, if that's how they're showing up.

And then I can work with the people who are coming in with the stuff that. It's the right puzzle piece for what I do, right?

Nancy: .Because I remember that a lot of people would be like, I remember, because I had a very similar experience and I was like, this is, I should be able to do this.

Like I really was like, depression and anxiety they go together and then I'm like, we are very different in how they present and the behaviors that go with and someone else needs to be working with this

Riva: , the complexity. I think another challenge around that is then how clients describe their experience is not the same as how we described their experience.

So I still have to say right that I depression. And it's not that I don't, of course everybody, I think personally, I think everybody goes through a depressive period at some point in their lives, so of course there is some of that depressed mood showing up among people in my practice, of course, but so many people will come in and say my problem is depression.

And it's really not, from a clinical perspective, that's not what it is. And so it's like we have to do so much translating of how clients use language to how we would use language and then filter out and in people. Based on, finding the shared meaning under the different words, we're all using for stuff, right?

Nancy: Yes. , absolutely. . Okay. I could talk forever about this stuff. I don't know that people want to listen to it forever, but thank you so much for taking time out of your day to chat with us. And I think this, I think anytime we can, I think therapy has such a Vale for some reason, and anytime we can remove that veil and make it more accessible, we're doing a service to the industry.

Riva: Absolutely. Yes. I completely agree. And it was such a delight to talk to you about all this stuff. Thanks so much for having me.

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Episode 151: How We Store Trauma In Our Bodies

In this episode, I’m talking with Sarah Dionne, yoga psychotherapist and founder of Whole Health Collaborative, about getting out of our heads and into our bodies and how we store trauma in our bodies.

For those of us with anxiety, it’s pretty common to go into research mode and ask ourselves: why am I feeling this way? And if you already enjoy thinking, analyzing, and solving problems like me, well, then thinking and researching why you’re anxious is your go-to pattern. 

When I was writing my book, The Happier Approach, I learned that my default pattern—researching and asking why—didn’t actually serve me. The solution to my anxiety had nothing to do with the why. 

So what’s the solution to anxiety if it isn’t figuring out the why? 

Honestly, I was a little disappointed by the answer.

It’s about getting into your body. 

Moving from exploring our thoughts and opening up to our bodies is very hard for many of us. We live in our heads. We forget we have bodies. But what happens when our bodies have a lot to tell us about our experiences—and we don’t listen? 

In Episode 149, I talked with Nicole Lewis-Keeber about the t-word: trauma. 

In this episode, I’m talking with yoga psychotherapist and founder of Whole Health Collaborative, Sarah Dionne all about getting out of our heads and into our bodies and how we store trauma in our bodies.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Sarah’s unique blend of yoga and therapy and what it means to be a yoga psychotherapist

• The false belief that stopping the thoughts will stop the experience

• How ignoring our bodies and criticizing ourselves is an act of violence against ourselves

• The importance of compassion and how it is key to everything

Resources mentioned:

• wholehealthcollab.com

• Connect with Sarah on Pinterest

• Follow Sarah on Instagram

• Follow Sarah on Facebook

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: So compassion is the first step in compassion helps to disperse the anxiety and the stress because compassion is ultimately love. And then I'm creating the energy of love within my body. And that energy of love is very healing. So I'm already in the process of healing it. When I'm practicing compassion.

Nancy: Before we get into this week's episode, I want to do a quick note a couple of weeks ago, my guest Nicole Lewis keeper, and I chatted about the personal development industry. And we used broad generalizations, especially about the coaching industry. So I want to clarify that the key to finding help from a coach or therapist is to be discerning.

There are amazing coaches and therapists out there, and there are crappy coaches and therapists out there. A quality coach or therapist will be certified and we'll be helping you build the skills to listen to you. Trust your gut, listen to your inner wisdom and remember there's no secret formula.

So now on with this week, though, I love my mind. I love thinking, analyzing, solving a problem. When I have anxiety, my default response is to go into research mode. I asked myself why am I feeling this way? And then while writing my book, the happier approach, I realized that I was going about this all wrong.

My default is not serving me the solution to my anxiety. Has nothing to do with the why you're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

So what is the solution to anxiety? If it isn't figuring out the why? Honestly, I was a little disappointed by the answer, which is getting into your body, getting out of your mind and getting into your physical body. This is so hard for many of us. We live as if we're walking heads. We forget that we have bodies that have a lot to tell us about our experiences.

All this month, we are looking at our pasts. And more specifically, we are talking about the T word trauma today. I'm talking with Sarah Dion, a yoga therapist and founder of whole health collaborative about getting out of our heads and getting into our bodies and how we store trauma in our bodies. Sarah and I talk about her unique blend of yoga and therapy and what it means to be a yoga psychotherapist.

The false belief that stopping the thoughts will stop the experience, how ignoring our bodies and criticizing ourselves is an act of violence against ourselves and the importance of compassion and how it is key to everything. So this month we are continuing our conversation about trauma. The big T I always feel so powerful saying that.

And specifically today to be, we're going to be talking about trauma and our bodies and I have brought in yoga psychotherapist. Sarah Dionne. Welcome Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you. So happy to be here.

Nancy: I'm so excited to have you here. So tell us about just dive right in what's yoga psychotherapy.

Sarah: So yoga psychotherapy is a blend between traditional methods of psychotherapy and the eight limbs of yoga.

So when I say the eight limbs of yoga, I don't just mean as Asana practice, which is the postures that you get when you go to a yoga class. All of the different pieces of yoga, like meditation, like breath work introspection, blah, blah, blah, like all of that. And I mix that. Psychotherapy. So I'm a licensed psychotherapist and I'm also a certified yoga instructor.

So I've put them, I put them both together.

Nancy: So when someone comes to work with you as a yoga psychotherapist, what are the, what is what could they expect? What's that going to be like?

Sarah: So when someone comes to me, there are coming to me as a psychotherapist. So they're looking for therapy, but they're also looking for a way to include their body, which is what we do together.

So I'm not a yoga instructor, but what I should say is that I'm a yoga instructor, but I don't give yoga classes. That's not what it's about. It's about blending together, the physical experience, and also all those eight limbs with the psychotherapy practice. So oftentimes what I'll do is I'll send people home with homework and they'll go home and practice, maybe a yoga posture at home, and then they'll also have some insight or self discovery work to do.

And then we'll talk more about that, the next session. So a lot of my work is about, we go over things in session, but they have, but it's really about the client becoming their own therapist when they go home. Ah, okay. Practicing this stuff. And then when we come back together, okay, what's happened. What's come up and let's talk about it and let's add something to it so that you can continue growing.

Nancy: So it's using these eight principles, limbs, as you said of yoga combined with traditional talk therapy that they can do at home. The actual practice. It's not like you're sitting in a room and people are doing asanas and you're having them talk about themselves.

Sarah: They could, if that's what they felt they needed.

So I might offer something. If they were doing us and us with me, it's not going to be like a yoga class. We might choose one or two postures to do that would benefit their specific need. Got it. If they if they were someone that was dealing with a lot of tension in the chest because of anxiety, we might do some chest openers, or we might also do something that could explore what's going on with their heart center and why they are having a lot of tension there.

And so yoga posture may help to clarify what the problem is…

Nancy: by helping them get into their bodies and not just live up in their heads, which is where therapy tends to put them. Yes. So it's the blending of both. I love that. I think that's where we need to head as an industry.

Sarah: I agree. I agree. 100%.

Nancy: Which takes us into, as someone who is a therapist and has gone to a lot of therapy, one of the things I really like about therapy is that it's cognitive. It doesn't require me to get into my body. And so as someone who doesn't want to get into my body and really deal with those traumas, that's a positive thing, but it's not really a really allowing me to move forward because I'm I say I, and many of my clients, we ha we live as if we don't have a body.

Sarah: I think that it we can move forward to a point. And then eventually our body is going to ask to be addressed. Okay, so it's going to send us, it's going to start giving us messages that something is off. Something is wrong because we're storing the one, one of the things that's really important for people to understand is that the mind and the body are not connected.

They are one full thing.

Nancy: Ooh, Tell me more on that one.

Sarah: So they, there was no way to fully explore the mind without the body and vice versa. And they are functioning as one. So with the mind is communicating to you through the body. So if I'm having anxiety, I'm having bodily experiences of anxiety.

I'm having gut problems. I'm having chest problems, I'm having throat problems. And that is your mind within your body . So your mind, it's not like it's connected. It's all one big thing with all of these hormones and chemicals, not just to be physical biological, but that is part of it with all of these hormones and chemicals going through our bodies that also cycle into the brain and back down through our body.

So it's not just one, we can't separate it.

Nancy: So even though I've tried (laughter),

So what ends up happening… it's the upset stomach. It's the chronic pain. It's the headaches. It's all of these physical symptoms are showing up and continuing to ignore those by just living in only acknowledging one piece of the mind, body of the body gets us.

Sarah: Yes. Okay. It does get us into trouble because we can start to develop all kinds of physical illnesses and problems that we can't figure out such as fibromyalgia, such as it used to be called chronic fatigue, such as ongoing headaches that just have no explanation, ongoing gastrointestinal problems that have no explanation, just weird chronic pain or adrenal fatigue is another one that one's a pretty common one for anxiety.

There, all these things that start popping up and sometimes doctors will say this is the issue. And let's take care of that. The, let's say it's an ulcer that is formed in the stomach because of ongoing stress. So they may be able to medicate the ulcer, but the ulcer is not the problem.

The problem is the anxiety that caused. But if we're not getting into our bodies, and if we don't, aren't able to discover, then it's the ongoing anxiety that's creating the ulcer. The either we'll have to be taking that medication forever or for the ulcer is going to come back. So if we, but if we are able to connect to our body and discover that, oh, this is anxiety being stored in the gut, how can I work through that anxiety?

How can I experience it? How can I let it go? Then I'm going to be able to get to the root of the problem so that I don't have ulcers anymore.

Nancy: Okay. So I'm someone who has irritable bowel syndrome.

I know when my irritable bowel syndrome is acting up, I'm stressed. Like I know there's a link, but I have a problem then taking that any further. So I might recognize, oh, wow. My irritable bowel syndrome was acting up. Oh yeah. It's because of this stress, but then that's as far as I go.

Sarah: Okay. So what I might suggest in a situation like that is first of all, how can I build compassion and acceptance for myself and compassion for my body for developing this issue?

Because a lot of times we get frustrated with it. And then we're annoyed. And then what does that create? More tension, more stress. Yeah. So step a is compassion. Yep. How do I develop compassion for myself and just allow myself to not feel right now. And then the next is compassion for the fact that I feel disconnected from my body rather than why can't I get connected to my body.

It's I have compassion for myself that I am not connected to my body. So it's

Nancy: compassion for the symptoms and then compassion for the fact that I'm feeling those symptoms.

Sarah: Yes.

Nancy: Okay. I love that. I love that double layer

Sarah: So compassion is the first step in compassion helps to disperse the anxiety and the stress because compassion is ultimately love.

And then I'm creating the energy of love within my body. And that energy of love is very healing. So I'm already in the process of healing it when I'm practicing compassion.

Nancy: Got it. Okay. Love that.

Sarah: So then the next step would be doing some chakra work. So if we go down into the gut, that's where the solar plexus is and the solar plexus is, that third chakra that's above the, so when I talk about chakras, I'm talking about like an energy system in the body.

You don't have to believe it. Like I tell people that it's not like you have to buy into any kind of new agey stuff. You don't have to, you don't have to even believe that they're called chakras. I don't care. It's just that our gut, you talk about, you get a gut, feeling, your stomach drops.

I have butterflies in my stomach. They're all about the stomach. So something's going on there? I really don't care what you call it. I call it the solar plexus. That is above the belly button and right below the sternum, the once we've clarified that it's, that having compassion, that's the first step.

And now the chakra work on the solar plexus. So I might do some vision. The energy that I have there and what's going on with that energy. A lot of times we'll have images or thoughts in our mind that is actually the energy in our body. That's just presenting itself as images in our mind.

So if we're like, let's say I'm doing that solar plexus work. And I close my eyes, take some deep breaths and I get a color in my head. Maybe I get black, maybe the black pops into my head. What does black mean to me? That color as in like this absence of light, or maybe I get the color green, what does that mean to me?

And what's the feeling that comes with. Great. Okay. Because different colors resonate with different experiences, different memories, different, if I'm having an experience of absence of light that's a pretty difficult experience, right? There's something going on there.

That's pretty hard. So the solar plexus, typically not for everyone, but typically the assign the color of yellow to it. And if we're experiencing some kind of dull color or we're not even able to connect to the energy there, I would suggest that means that we're having a really hard time with our identity and competence.

And we're having a hard time with security in ourselves and also who is my authentic self, because all of that is here. And also the last thing is power. Am I do I have power over my life? So if we can get into the different chakras, which is also part of the yoga practice. That they, we can figure out a lot of things just by understanding that.

And like I said, you don't have to buy into the new age. If you can still connect with your body in this way. Yeah. And if that's not your belief system,

Nancy: but I so in the process of connecting and I can be like, okay, I see a color red it's, whatever color I see. Because a lot of people get caught up in the right or wrong.

It's my color, my answer, what it means to me. But, when you said yellow, that's just like the standard colored that's assigned to that particular chakra.

Sarah: Typically people experience yellow there. And if we can enlarge. Because when we say solar plexus is the sun.

So like the shining light of you.. So if it's another color other than yellow, there may be something else going on. For some reason that you're not experiencing yellow there. That's like that shining self. And why is it not the shining self? Why is it not that powerful sun?

So maybe it's red. And what does red mean to me? Just for me, what comes to mind for me personally, it might be anger might be irritation, like you're feeling annoyed or agitated. For me not, that's not going to mean the same for everybody, right? Yeah. But that doesn't, but why is that present in my identity?

Why is that present in my, that shining light of me? Why am I feeling this red sense of tension? So what that does is it gives us some way to explore. So this is where it branches into psychotherapy

Nancy: I'm with you. Let me pause. Just because what I love about is it gives me a way to, tap into my body.

Yes. By just looking at colors and feelings it's a useful way to tap in because that can be like, oh, what's the color that comes up. And then what's underneath that. So I love that. Just this first part with the compassion. Because this is where I get stuck. Oh yeah.

Sarah: No, I'm I hope that it's a little helpful. I don't know.

Nancy: I would love that just in my like oh yeah. To think of the colors and the feelings that kind of brings it into a more practical than then, oh my gosh, something's really wrong with me. And I'm a total mess.

I'm in all this denial and I have secret things that I don't know that are happening, but just to break that down. Okay. So then once I figure out it's red, it's anger or I'm irritated. Now, what do I do?

Sarah: So that's just the very personal psychotherapy session, right? That person experiences red, we're going to be whatever that's meaning to them.

We're going to be exploring that for them in particular. So maybe they have a relationship that's causing a lot of stress and is very disempowering. Maybe there's, there's just something in their life that's really creating this lack of self-esteem lack of, self-confidence so we can explore that.

And then what do we do about it? So that might be taking action in life because sometimes we have to work from the outside in, so if I'm, if something is causing a feeling of lack of power, what is it and what do I do about it? So can I take action or is this if we go into yoga the act of acceptance..

So if I'm not accepting of the situation and I can't change it, can't, I cannot change it. Then I have to look at acceptance because if I'm not, then I'm going to be residing in resentment and anger. And that is going to go into the solar plexus and other chakras too. It's just that we're talking about that one in particular.

But so like you start to put pieces together. It becomes like a puzzle. So we start with the body, then we start, what's like experience what's going on in the mind. And then also is there traumas back there that are informing this what's happening and we just start putting a person's puzzle together.

Nancy: So can the body. Inform. I know the answer to this, but the body can inform the trauma. So can I recognize, oh, because I'm repeatedly having trouble in my gut or I'm repeatedly having trouble. Maybe there's a trauma I need to be looking at or is it not that simple. That's just making it way too simple.

Sarah: I think that we don't want to jump. Because sometimes if we say that okay, I'm having gut issues. So there might be a trauma. Sometimes we can begin to have a lot of fear that we have repressed memories and then we're going to start like, oh my God, what happened to me when I was such and such age?

And that's not good either because maybe nothing happened. So we don't want to jump to conclusions that it is a trauma. Could it be? Maybe, but that's not the first place. I'd go. Okay. The first place I'd go is just let's investigate. Whatever it is, if they do have trauma and. And we know that they have trauma, then we're going to think about, is that playing a role?

Because it likely is.

Nancy: Yeah. Because that repressed memories, idea and trauma, obviously they go hand in hand, but I think for a lot of people, that's why they don't want to touch on trauma because it's going to unearth all these repressed memories, which isn't necessarily the case.

Sarah: No, it depends on the person.

Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be very individualized, that's a very visible thing. And some people are going to unearth repressed memories of just very scary. And as like people don't might not want to do that. And so might avoid but other people are not going to. Sometimes that's frustrating for them as because they might have an unexplained something or other going on. And they know that something happens. But they'll never get that memory. And so that's another level of acceptance. But it's not always going to be any one way.

Nancy: Yeah. It's all individualized. Yeah. That makes sense. So why do you think, I know the majority of my clients, I'm in this world as well, are really uncomfortable with our bodies.

Like we, like I said, we really do live from the shoulders up. Is that some of that is obvious. This is societal, but tell me your thoughts on that.

Sarah: First of all, there's nothing essentially wrong with it. There's it's just that it is what it is and it's just limiting. And it we can do lots of wonderful growth and introspection with the mind.

But, like I said, they are functioning as one, so we're only unearthing piece of a part of it and we're not unearthing the rest. So first of all, if someone wants to stay in their mind, okay. That's totally fine. But if they're still having a lot of problems and it's clear that they're going to have to do something to move forward in their self discovery, then if they don't go into the body, then they're going to be living very limited.

Nancy: Because it's all connected

Sarah: . It's all one thing. It's all one big thing.

Nancy: So just mind blowing. When you, like, when you think about even you correcting on the, it's not connected, it's one thing, because we have all heard the mind body connection. Yeah. There's no such thing, right?

It sounds like there's this little wire that runs between the two, but you're saying, Nope, it's all one big thing. Stop thinking it's a thing. It's a body,

Sarah: it's a body and your brain is part of your body. It's not a separate organ. So is my liver. Am I going to call my liver? Is there a liver body connection?

it's just part of my body. The brain is an organ in the body. The liver is an organ in the body. They're all functioning together as one big thing. It just will be limiting on how far we can grow. If we don't explore the body, I never want to shame anybody and say if they're having a very key ingredient is if I'm not ready to go into the body, then I have compassion for that.

Ah, let me reside with compassion for that. Be where I am and when I'm ready, if. Then I'll explore that. Yeah. But so it's still it's okay.

Nancy: Yeah. It's all. Okay.

Sarah: So that's like the kind of the yoga is all about compassion. Like when you go to a yoga class, they'll talk about it, but if you dive into yoga and the practices of yoga, the essential component is love, acceptance, compassion. Those are the, I should say three essential components, but they're really all one, yeah. So that, that's my basis for everything. And because that is the basis of yoga. So when I come from that. I come to the mat at all angles for all people, even if they're not ready to go into the body, even if that's not where they are, it's still total love, total compassion. That's where you are.

And let's just start there. And if that's where you need to reside. Okay let's find love and compassion for that.

Nancy: Okay. So if I'm like, okay, I want to start exploring my body. Then it is about just doing, how would I start that process?

Sarah: So it depends on the person. Some people can do trauma informed yoga.

Okay. So this there's a place in Boston, but I, depending on where someone is in the country, I don't know there aren't a lot, like it's not a widely practiced thing yet. It's spreading and thought. So someone, if they are near someplace, that practices that there is trauma informed yoga, which is a very basic type of deal.

That walks people through it, low body experiences as they practice very basic postures. So you'll be doing self discovery while you're in the yoga postures. So that's one way if someone has that near them, if someone does not have that near them two good ways would be, first of all, visioning, like we talked about visioning inside the body, getting a touch with the chakra system that really engages the thoughts in the mind, but then it's also bringing it down into the body.

So that's one way, another way is meditation. When I meditate, can I connect with the sensations in my body? So can I feel where I'm having pain and can I bring compassion to the pain that I'm having? So I might focus somewhere like on my, if I'm having a lot of pain in my shoulders. So if I'm in meditation and that's distracting, Bringing my mind there and having compassion for that and being with it, that's coming into my body.

That's all coming into my body and for yoga, that's that mindfulness practice. And there's also a part of yoga called Pratyahara, which is stepping back from the senses. So what I mean by that is that you can be, or in your body in observing the pain, but the pain is not controlling you.

Okay. So it's just there and you can see it , you can feel it, something that's going to really influence you in a negative way. So that is being able to really have compassion for the body and taking a step. It's not disconnecting from the body, but it's being able to see it objectively and having just love.

Nancy: Because I think that's the piece. Yeah. For so many of my clients, working with people that have high functioning anxiety, they're pushing, pushing, and the idea of slowing you, just, even the idea of slowing down is going to be painful because that's going to hurt my productivity and I'm not, so the idea of being able, then, that's what I love about what you're saying is that by being the first practice is I'm going to be compassionate.

Or I always say I'm going to be kind to myself, same things by doing that first, then whatever I can, that's the mindfulness practice in another thing.

Sarah: Yeah. Then you can stem from there. Yes. It's the starting point. And throughout the psychotherapy that I, I do and throughout the yoga compassion is always the foundation.

So I start there and then I just bring it with me because I continue forward.

Nancy: And as you're going deeper, it's just compassion.

Sarah: That's just deeper and deeper compassion because once we can get to a point where we're just totally embraced in compassion, we have total self love.

And then we, it's hard for most people even imagine that what is self love? I can't, I don't love myself and I get it. I get it in there . So I get it. It's hard for people to even imagine what that could be like, but when we start from a basis of compassion and continue to build it, eventually, I don't know when for each person, but eventually we can get there.

You can get to a place where, Hey, I'm okay. No matter what,

Nancy: 'because I’m in my body a nd I can navigate from this grounded place. Yeah. I love that. So what got you into the yoga psychotherapy?

Sarah: So I've been in psychotherapy. I got into psychotherapy when I was in, in 2009.

That's when I got into grad school. And before that I was working in the mental health field. Prior to that, I discovered yoga when I was 25. I'm 41 now. So I discovered it when I was 25. And I was dealing with eating disorders and terrible anxiety and also issues that looked a lot like bipolar.

So I was dealing with a lot of stuff at that time in my life, and I discovered yoga. And so I began exploring that I should back up a little bit and say that when I was even younger, when I was like 19. I began exploring spirituality. And what is deeper in life? What is more, I've always been had that kind of interest and what is even out there?

What is all of this, right? What's the point? What's the point of it all. And so then I when I was 25, I got into yoga. When I was going through all of those very difficult things. And yoga brought me deeper into my spirituality and brought me closer to my healing. And then in 2009, I was like, I decided I really wanted to help other people.

And I dove into psychotherapy. However, once I graduated and started really working in the field, what I noticed a lot was how much all of it is in the mind. And I also noticed that a lot of my clients weren't perfect. Ah, okay. So I noticed that people were getting stuck. A lot of people were very stuck.

The people that weren't stuck or the people that had a spiritual practice or some kind of practice in which their whole self was involved. Okay. And they were typically people that, yoga is not the only way. But they would typically someone that were involved in some kind of thing that reconnect, like whether it was running, whether it was yoga, whether it was something that really got them into their body.

Nancy: Okay To build awareness of their body and how they were feeling

Sarah: like Tai Chi They were able to get into their body and feel their body. They were the ones that seem to progress more. Not always, but usually then other people, I noticed that a lot of people stayed the same. And it, there were some people that would progress, but it wasn't like, I was like, there's got to be more. And another thing that I, a lot of people talked about is stability. What will help someone be mentally stable? And I thought, what kind of life is that? That you just get to be stable?

Nancy: That's what I thought. When you said it, I was like, oh

Sarah: . And so when I kept going and kept working in this field and kept seeing that there was, there had to be more, there had to be more. And I kept seeing that we were all, everybody was not everybody, but a lot of people were very much in the mind. And that the trauma work was difficult because we couldn't get into the body.

And all of this trauma was hanging out in their bodies and being in that practice, it was limiting, because of the office space, because of just what the agency would allow. There was just, you were limited. So in two thousands 14, I ha so I went on through this period and I started to grow and I started to change and I started to see that I needed to be something more.

So I got certified as a yoga instructor, I think in like 2013 and began to bring that into the practice. I got certified as a children's yoga instructor. I got certified as the adult yoga instructor. I also started doing things with play therapy for adults and children's Sandtray therapy, like things that were going to get the body involved.

In 2014, I had my daughter and I was thrown into postpartum problems. Like you wouldn't believe like postpartum OCD terrible postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression. It was horrific. And not long after that, about a year after that, I went through what I can only call a spiritual awakening.

And when I went through that, I knew that I had to help people become whole, and I knew that the only way to do that was going to be through embracing the body and mind within practice. I just felt this absolute yearning to help people with that. So I decided to blend the two together and I also founded a little private practice called whole health collaborative.

And it's, that's building, but still in the future, we're going to be including like nutrition and massage therapy and stuff like that. And the body more involved. So I guess all of that stuff informed my absolute belief and combining body with mind and spirituality and therapy.

So I believe that's, what's needed to really embrace total healing. And I, so I guess that's the long story. But I felt, I feel like, that's just how I came around to it

Nancy: because, in therapy. Through the ages and in our, regulations that we have it is very clear no body like it is not something we are taught to include. So in the therapy world, what you're doing, although brilliant is very cutting edge.

Sarah: I think it's more and more now people are really starting to grasp, the necessity of bringing body into the practice. And the use of yoga is something that's becoming more and more.

It's not super out there yet, but it's not everywhere yet, but it's more and the people from India. And around the world have used yoga for thousands and thousands. I think it's been around for about what they think anyway, about 5,000 years. And they were using that in order to explore themselves and move through issues.

And so we're finally catching on over here,

Nancy: right? Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. We're finally catching on. But I am part of that movement. But there are other people out there that I'm really grateful for that are also no seeing and using strategies to involve, but body, mind, and spirit.

Nancy: Yeah.

Because it is a fascinating when you just when, I just think about how that's such a hard, no, of bringing the body in the therapy room and yet, so freaking important, especially with the idea that it's all one,

Sarah: Because what does that tell you? Yeah, we were going into the therapy room when they say, oh, nobody can't talk like, you can't bring that into the therapy room.

Isn't that disconnecting us even more. Isn't that saying that I shouldn't be involved with this thing that his body is saying that this isn't okay, but my body's not okay. And that I should just be residing in the mind. Isn't that the message it is.

Nancy: That's totally the message. And even, I think that's why I loved your thing about the color.

Because I've totally, in all my years and all my years of therapy have been asked, where do you feel that, where do you feel that sensation? But then, and I'll say, oh, I feel it in my stomach or whatever, but then it's never taken any more than that has ever taken any more than that or B it's I interpreted as a shame.

Because I can't really access it, I don't really know what to do with it. Once they say, where do you feel that? And so then I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm totally disconnected from my body. I don't even know that's there. And then I started spinning off rather than your idea of compassion, with whatever comes up.

Yes. And that's the piece I think we miss is that we're quick to judge because our body isn't, especially, us high productivity people, we buy the lie that we're robots and we need to be able to make this body function better. And so the fact that the body isn't functioning better is because we aren't in control.

And rather than being compassionate to ourselves, we're just going to drive it home.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We're basically running it into the ground. Yes. Our body doesn't like w where our mind is just pushing our body beyond what it was meant to do. And very often that's what we're doing.

And some people can do like these, let's say like I said, it's always very individual because you have some people that can run these, like ultra marathons and for them, they're like, you have to be so dedicated to do something like that, but for them that might not be beyond their scope.

Their particular body structure might be able to handle that. And then you might have other people that just like go and they work late at night. And they work with who knows, maybe that's right for them. But then you have people that are not functioning well anymore and are starting to have health problems that are starting to have there's, they're not happy.

They're not fulfilled. They're tired all the time. Blah, blah, blah. They are doing something that is beyond the limits. And no one likes to hear, I have limitations. No one likes to hear that. They're like, I'm not limited. I'm guess I'm strong. And they are Absolutely strong. But your body is a physical entity.

It's a physical thing that needs, it needs compassion. It needs love, it needs rest. It needs kindness. It needs care. And if we don't take good care of what it's asking, then it's going to start falling apart.

Nancy: Yes. Because rather than, what we have been taught is then you just ignore your body and then you don't have to deal with it.

And that is just creating more and more of a mess.

Sarah: Yes. And if we go into trauma, we're talking more about the connection with the body and trauma. And we've talked about ignoring the body and not wanting to connect with it. And I know that this is probably something that you run into a lot with people is that there's just so much shame connected to the body

Nancy: Yes. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up.

Sarah: Yeah. Yes. Very obviously huge issue for people that have experienced a lot of different types of traumas that their body becomes a source of shame because it stores memories because it stores experiences because it also goes through kind of physical experiences of flashing.

And so, it can get re-traumatized through flashbacks. So hence why would I want to reconnect with my body, right? No, I'm not doing that. And I get that completely because it's scary. I don't want to disrupt it. I don't want to, I just want to leave this thing behind.

That makes total sense to me. Like I get it. I get why that feels. That I get why that feels so important for people to do or not important. I get why that is such an urge for people to leave behind their body. But the problem is that since the trauma is stored in the body, it's just going to keep coming back.

And if we're ignoring it, we're probably going to eventually do something to start numbing the body.

Nancy: Yes, there you go.

Sarah: We're probably going to start doing something to not feel the body, whether that like eating disorders. That's a huge one. Yeah. Any kind of food issue, huge one, any type of addiction and it doesn't necessarily have to be a drug addiction.

It could be shopping. It could be gambling is something where it creeps that adrenaline. I'm not thinking about this totally up here in my adrenaline. Yeah. It's like something to get me out, so I'm not experiencing this thing anymore. And obviously severe anxiety, panic attacks, or we get so caught up in the mind that it, we feel like we're completely disconnected from the body.

It's not that the anxiety is created because we're trying to avoid our brains. The anxiety is the result, according our body. And then oftentimes to cope with the anxiety. Yes. Is when we're putting all that other stuff on top of it to shut the body up and to shut the anxiety up. Yeah,

Nancy: because that is totally what I have found, with me, with a lot of my clients, the idea that it is the unhealthy coping mechanisms we have developed around the anxiety that then we'll do things that will start fighting that those symptoms.

So I'll go, I'll stop numbing or I'll stop. I'm going to fight my overeating or I'm going to fight my perfectionism. And then once I start doing that, then the anxiety comes up and I don't have any place. I don't know how to deal with the anxiety because the problem was the perfectionism or the problem I thought was the numbing.

That's just a coping mechanism to what's really underneath there that we haven't figured out until we get that connection built.

Sarah: So if I'm someone some other things that people do cutting or any type of self injury, obviously that's also very anger, a lot of anger towards the body, right?

So all of those definitely ways that people deal with trauma and deal with anxiety and deal with these memories and issues within the body. So I would always recommend to someone first. I'm always talking about,

Nancy: I had someone say to me recently Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be kind to myself. I get it right?

Sarah: Yes. So if I'm someone that is dealing with an eating disorder, whether it's binge eating, that might be it. So if that's me and I'm continuing to binge eat and I'm continuing to numb out the experience of the body, the first thing that I, again, encourage people to do is how do I have compassion for myself, even when I'm binging, even when I'm in, in that addiction or in that behavior?

Because then I can not fight it. So we got to put down the bat. And we can't fight. We have to accept and move beyond. So if I'm able to accept that, I have, if that was someone which I have suffered with binge eating disorder, if I was someone that was dealing with that, the first, the very first thing is to accept that I'm someone that's living with binge eating disorder.

Then I'm someone that's fighting binge eating disorder. I am someone who's living with it. And how I have compassion for me as a person who's living with this. And then as I continue to act out the behavior, I continued to develop compassion towards myself as acting out this behavior, someone that's struggling and that's okay.

Because intrinsically, is there anything wrong with it? There is nothing wrong with it. You can be a binge eater to the moon and back. And is there any, there's nothing wrong with it, right?. We internalized shame about this behavior that has nothing to be ashamed of. Who cares? We care because it causes harm,

Nancy: Yeah. It's not ideal. Like we need to be bringing it out into the air that this is really happening

Sarah: Yeah. It doesn't even matter if it matters in the sense that it's causing us harm. It doesn't matter in the sense of shame. It's not something that is wrong.

Yeah. So compassion shines, like you said, bring that out to the light. Compassion, shines, light on it and says that this, there is nothing wrong with this. Why am I thinking there's something wrong? And then I'm doing something wrong.

Nancy: Yeah. Because from that place, then you can start healing. Not overnight, but it's where you can start dealing with what it is you're dealing with instead of the I'm going through all these hoops of making sure no one else sees that you're binge eating and hiding it from yourself.

Like all the games we'll play in our heads to keep it under wraps. When in that, when it's that idea of let's just honor what's happening.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. Let's just honor what's happening. It is what it is. Obviously that's oversimplifying and if we could all just say it is what it is.

Oh, totally. Yeah. And I wouldn't have jobs. Yeah. So obviously that's oversimplifying. It really is not right or wrong. And that we can live in this kind of space of grace rather than black, white it's, we can live in, like I say, compassion and love for the self. Even if we're doing something that we wish we weren't doing.

And that it can going back to the trauma and how this is all related to trauma the numbing and trying to numb out the shame and the experience of shame in the body. So if we also go back to yoga and the physical experience and connecting to the body, and if we're talking about shame has a very physical presence in the body.

So it's there, it's within you and within your body. So if you're experiencing the thoughts, it's not your thoughts. What is most uncomfortable, what's most uncomfortable is the experience your body goes through because your body starts to do all of this really difficult stuff. It starts to develop all of this.

Like some people have that pit in the stomach or they feel all of this tension and their whole body feels like it's closing up or they feel like they're paralyzed and they can't move. So there that's the body. That's not the mind. So it's not like the thoughts might be perpetuating it, but the whole, but that really uncomfortable experience was my body,

Nancy: yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So the just stopping the thoughts. Does not mean that my body won't react that way,

Nancy: Say that one again. Because that needs to be heard

Sarah: if I just stopped the thought it does not mean that my body won't react that way. So I was working with a man who had post-traumatic stress from, he was a combat vet.

So obviously a lot of really terrible trauma. And he had very severe PTSD, very severe. And it really interrupted his quality of life. And one of the things that was a trigger for him was the smell of gasoline. Okay. And when he would walk by a gas station, like he had coping skills that he put together, but that's not, let me just talk about what would happen.

Like he would walk by a gas station and he'd smelled a gas. He would not have any thoughts, but it wouldn't be a thought. But his whole body would start to react.. His whole, all like his whole body would enter into a place of fight flight, fight, flight freeze. Without a thought. The thought would come afterwards.

. So the body reacts first a lot of the times. And then the thought would come after, because my body has gone into this fight flight freeze mode, which then brings up all of this physical experience of shame, which then goes up into the mind and creates all this stuff. So just by stopping the thought is not going to necessarily stop this bodily reaction.

. So if we go into the body and you start addressing what's happening there, we start to learn about it. We might not be able to completely get rid of it, but we have compassion for it, acceptance, and we have understanding and know how to cope with it. Then we're going to be able to manage it much more quickly and not enter into those really difficult states of PTSD.

And that has all to do with the body work.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Because and my listeners have heard me say this a thousand times, the change, your thoughts drives me crazy. Because it's so much more than that. And we have bought that lie that if I just change my thoughts, everything will be fine.

And if it isn't it is not.

Sarah: No, it isn't. We have to change our innermost beliefs and that's a whole other bag of worms. So in yoga, what we talk about is basically these thoughts that we have over and over and over and over again throughout our lifetime create like kind of pathways in the brain, almost how water runs over a stone and eventually creates this indent.

And that indent is the belief, right? It's really hard for those thoughts to get out of that, in that rut they're in it, because now it's an indent in the stone and the water, or the thoughts are going to want to run down that way. They're going to want to run down that way. And in order to create another path, a lot of work has to happen.

Yeah. Yeah. If we just try to change the thought. What happens is we don't believe it. It's like that's stupid. And we might be trying to like, say I shouldn't believe it. And keeping it to myself. And I'm going to bang my head against the wall and what you don't believe it. And that's useless.

It doesn't matter. You have, there's that samskara, there is that pathway that has been created and it's going to take a lot more than just trying to redirect my thoughts,

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Because then it becomes, I'm beating myself up because I should be able to change this thought and what's wrong with me that I can't, and I should be thinking positive.

Maybe I should be more grateful, like all of that.

Sarah: And then it just makes the pathway deeper. Yes,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nancy: Because I was struck when you said. We about the back to the binge eating and the numbing out, and you were like, you know what? You need to put the bat down. I loved that because that's what we do.

But that is such a Western, even I was because I wrote down like cancer. Like we have I'm going to fight this cancer and I'm going to beat it instead of having compassion for the body that's being attacked in this way and how you know, and not coming at it from such a violent perspective,

Sarah: I couldn't agree more.

I couldn't agree more. Why don't we say I'm for healing? Yes.

Nancy: Yeah.

Sarah: I'm against cancer. Why don't we say I'm for love I'm for equality. Why do we say I'm against racism? Why do we like it's always against always, no matter what it is, I'm against it. That's going to create more anger and more violence.

There's no way around it. It's going to and it's also going to create more anger towards our bodies if we're just, nevermind all those big societal issues, to, if we're just talking about our physical body, we're just creating more anger. We're just creating more violence towards the self.

A major part of yoga is the, is non-violence. Nonviolence obviously doesn't mean outward violence towards other people. Whether it's verbal, whether it's physical, but it also means non-violence to the self that I'm treating myself with absolute kindness and without violent or harmful thoughts, violent, not necessarily being like blood and war violent being.

I hate myself. What's wrong with me? I'm so stupid. Those are violent thoughts because I'm hit, I'm beating myself up. I'll be abusing myself. So non-violence says I am for healing. I am for self-compassion. I am for pick your societal issue. And that creates a well of compassion, which then creates the road for healing.

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm, I just want to leave it there because that is, that's the message that I want people to get, okay. So how could people find out about you or working with you, what you got going on?

Sarah: They can go to my website which is. Whole health collab, We will link to that in the show notes.

Okay. So that, that that link, they can go there. I have a tab there that they can easily message me. There's a message right on the bottom that they can scroll down to. You can even I have a calendar there that you can even schedule your own a free consultation with me..

So I make it super, super easy because I know that it's hard to reach out. And I just want to make it as available as possible. So there's a, you don't even have to message me, go into the schedule and schedule your consultation. A lot of people do want to message me first and I love that. So there is a, there was a form right on the, my, my page.

It says, shoot me a message and just do it right there.

Nancy: Awesome. Great. Cool. We'll have all that information in the show notes so people can get more information about working with you and set up a time, et cetera, et cetera, and get into their bodies. Yes. After this interview with Sarah, I decided to practice skipping my default pattern of asking why I woke up and I felt stressed and I didn't go into my normal litany of all the possible contributors to my stress.

In fact, I didn't have any curiosity about what was behind the stress. I just noticed the stress. I took a couple deep breaths, put my hands on my heart and kept repeating to myself. You're okay. In this moment. You're okay. Right where you are. Then after a few moments I would ask, what could I do to ease the stress, make a cup of tea, go for a walk, call a friend throughout the week.

I practice just giving myself acceptance where I was and curiosity, if anything could be added. And I felt better building this practice allows me to build self loyalty and safety within myself, rather than constantly judging my experience. I can meet myself where I am and unpack whatever feelings or sensations come to the surface.

It was amazingly freeing to not get stuck in justification to not go through the wall.

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Episode 150: How to Let Go of the Past

In today’s episode, I continue looking at the power of our past and how we can face our stories and move through them so they don’t cause more pain.

Your past matters—even though the personal growth industry is obsessed with the future you at the expense of the past you. In that world, the only real change and movement in your life comes from looking forward, setting goals, and just doing it like I talked about in Episode 148.

But I believe that it’s OK to have a past. 

It’s OK to be perfectly imperfect.

It’s OK to share stories from your past. 

It’s OK to have trauma and pain in your past. 

It’s OK to have a joyful past, too.

The bottom line? You cannot ignore your past. 

If you do, it will creep up on you in the personification of your Monger as your parents or in the way you talk to your kids or how you interact with your spouse. Your past plays a role in your current life—period. 

It’s immensely powerful to face our stories—to look them dead in the face and slowly release their power through patience and compassion for ourselves. That’s how you live happier.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The first step in the process of not letting your past control your life

• Practical ways to move through the stories from your past that are holding you back

• Why we often tell our stories like a news bulletin—drama and all—and how we need to focus more on how something made us feel

• How you can learn from your past and make peace with it

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Imagine your ex partner broke up with you out of the blue, you were caught completely unaware and were stunned by the breakdown. Now, here you are. Years later, you have a new partner who you absolutely adore, but you notice you've constantly feel like you're walking on eggshells, expecting the other shoe to drop.

Oops. Over every little thing. She does checking her phone when she's gone and hyper analyzing everything she says, and you notice you pick fights over the silliest things. This is not the relationship you want to have. And you know, it's because of your past partner and you love to blame her for her. And damaging him so badly, but it isn't hopeless.

You can move past this pain and hurt with a little work and a lot of stuff. Loyalty. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. As I mentioned in the last episode, the personal growth industry trend is to tell people that real change and movement comes only from looking forward, setting goals and just do it.

Yes, we do need to set goals, look forward and just do it. And sometimes we need to heal our past first as with any all or nothing thinking we have lost some key components of real and lasting change. Your past matters. Yep. I said it it's okay to have a past. It is okay to share stories from your past. It is okay to have trauma and pain in your past, and it is okay to have a joyful path.

Bottom line, you can't ignore your past. It creeps up on us and the personification of our monger as our parents and the way we talk to our kids or in how we interact with our spouse. Our past plays a role in our current lives period. Let's go back to the example of past relationships. You're letting the show and hurt from that past event.

Impact your thoughts about this new relationship. Now rationally, you can see that your new partner is a different person altogether and should not be treated as if they were the same as your ex. This isn't fair to them. They are a totally different person, but once your monger gets talking well, rationality, it just goes out the window.

The first step in the process of not letting your past control your life is owning the fact that this is even happening and chatting with your new partner about the fact that your past emotions are clouding your current relationship. When you notice it happening, lovingly remind yourself that this is a different person, that learning how to trust again is hard and that she is worth the risk.

The glitches, when we get stuck in the past, when we are living and reliving the past, over and over in our day-to-day lives, we become victims, martyrs, and just plain unhappy people. I assume this getting stuck in the past is what all the only look forward people are talking about, but I believe the message gets skewed and turns into an absolute, rather than the message being healed your past.

So you don't get stuck there. The message becomes ignore your past altogether. In today's episode, I want to share some practical ways. You can start moving through the stories from your past that are holding you back. To start off with share your story. That's right. Share it, bring it out of the closet, dust it off and share your pain, your struggles, the irrational beliefs that you got when you were eight years old, share those stories.

Find someone who loves you and you can trust to just listen without judging. In this day and age, we don't seem to have the patience for each other stories. We get impatient. We give too much advice or we want to share our story too quickly. So choose wisely. As you go through the act of sharing your story, your perspective will change.

You may be able to see the other person's side. You may be able to let go some of that old resentment, or it may just feel really good to say out loud. What has been playing unconsciously all these years? A quick note of caution here. We often tell stories of our past as if we're reporting a news bulletin.

We share the story as we always have. We share the injustice, the unfairness, the righteous indignation we get. So caught up in sharing the drama of the story. We forget to share how the experience made us feel. I mean, really feel, not just the obvious anger or sadness, but that we were dismissed or made to feel less than.

Befriend yourself during this process. It's one thing to have a supportive person who gets it, but we need to be willing to find the compassion for ourselves. I have a shame filled story from my past of cheating on a test in the sixties. Looking back now, it's a funny story because I was literally sitting next to the teacher's desk and a friend was walking up to put her paper on the teacher's desk.

And I asked my friend for the answer, what was I thinking? The teacher gelled. My parents were upset. I was a mess. I can fully remember that moment. And the aftermath talking to my parents feeling consumed by shame. How I felt the shame, the confusion, the fear of not knowing the answer. And today I can say to myself, wow, sweepy that was so hard feeling.

All those things. As a 12 year old, you made a mistake and you aren't good at cheating, but allowing myself to get fully in my body and having the compassion for that little girl. Make sure to befriend yourself through the feelings, allow everything that comes up and just be there. I always say, treat yourself as you would your niece allow yourself to feel the feelings of anger, sorrow, grief, self doubt, and insecurity.

This is often the piece that gets missed. We convince ourselves it isn't important, or it isn't a big enough deal. Well, if it is playing there over and over in your head, It's a big deal. For example, I remember a time when I was shaving my legs as a teenager, and I didn't check the razor before I went over my leg and the razor was damaged and I scraped up my entire leg, blood running everywhere from the numerous scrapes and burns the razor had left.

It was so freaking painful. I immediately went downstairs and showed my mom who said, well, why didn't you check the razor first? That was really stupid. I was mortified. I assumed she would give me more sympathy and understanding, but instead she focused only on my silly mistake as an adult. I've shared this story with my mom who not surprisingly has no recollection looking back.

I'm sure she was tired and stressed and just didn't have the capacity to comfort me when I had done something. So avoidable to myself. I share that story because it is a simple every day non-traumatic story. And yet for years, my monger used that story to remind me that I can't be trusted. I caused my own problems with my patients and not checking things out before I take action.

It is a simple story from my past that kept me. It's an easy story to stay in blame around blaming myself that I'm incompetent blaming my mom for shaming, me and round and round we go. The only way out is to befriend myself through the feelings. I shared that story out loud. I talk with my mom about it.

I gave myself compassion. To not get stuck in the story, you have to allow the discomfort cry for the eight year old, who was told they were stupid and would never succeed, punch a pillow for the anger you feel for not getting that promotion. You deserved grieve for your mother who you lost at age 18.

Just allow it allow the resentment, the bitterness and the anger. Then what can you learn? This is the piece that we lose sight of not saying that we can always learn from past tragedies. Please hear me when I say that. But often when things happen in the past, we are too quick to pull it out as a poor me story.

One of the ways to heal it is to ask yourself, how can I do this different. So you had a parent who puts too much pressure on you and made everything about achievement. What can you learn to notice when you were repeating that pattern in your own life to catch yourself when you overly praise people on their accomplishments to notice when you get caught up in building your own life based on praise.

Now one quick reminder. One of my guiding principles is everyone is doing the best they can with what they have in rising strong Bernay brown talks about how she operates from the assumption that everyone is doing the best they can. But I like to add the phrase with what they have. As a reminder to myself that we're all on different spots in our journeys.

Usually people aren't trying to hurt us by doing something different than we would. They're just doing the best they can, based on their past coping skills, personality traits, life stress, their reaction action probably makes sense. It might not be our reaction or one that feels good to us, but it is a logical reaction based on who the person is.

Like my mom in the razor story, she was doing the best she could with what she had that day, who knows what she had going on. When I walked down with my cut-up legs, we will never know, but living in a state of blame for the fact that she said the wrong thing, won't help either one of us. So by repeating this phrase, it allows me to give them a little room to be who they are and to not take the action quite so personally.

When I was dating my now husband, he would drive me crazy because when the world overwhelmed him, he shut off his cell phone. So you couldn't reach him no matter how hard you tried, he would do this for a few hours or a few days as his girlfriend at the time, I would take that action personally. I mean, he should want to talk to me.

I'm his girlfriend. But in reality, it had nothing to do with me. It was his coping skill. It was him doing the best he can with what he has for him. When he gets overwhelmed, he needs to shut out the outside world. And he does that by turning off his cell phone. It's how he takes back control it. Isn't what I do.

In fact, it's the opposite of what I do. But when I could pause and remember he's doing the best he can with what he has, I could move on without getting hurt or sad. And I knew he would call when he felt like re-engaging with the world. A more serious example. I had a client who was struggling with her sister because her sister had done something that hurt the family and they were having a hard time.

Her family. Hadn't spoken to the sister in a few years and my client was experiencing a lot of grief, frustration and anger when she pulled back and looked at the whole picture and the context of who her sister was, personality traits, family placement, coping skills, et cetera. It wasn't that big of a stretch to see why she had engaged in the negative hurtful behavior.

At the time she was doing the best she could with what she had as was my client. Once my client was able to see this. She began to start the process of healing and moving forward, it didn't change. The fact that my client felt hurt by her sister or take away her sister's responsibility for the behavior, but it did help my client pull back from the emotions to see that her sister's behavior wasn't meant to be intentional so she could move towards forgiveness rather than holding on to all.

We are all just doing the best we can with what we have. Most of us try very hard to be good people and make good decisions. And we are all human. We all make mistakes. We all, at one point or another, have poor coping skills, poor response skills, poor conflict skills or listening skills. But the secret is to have a little curiosity and ask yourself in the context of who this person is, are they doing the best they can with what they have?

These steps are in no way, a quick fix. Each of these steps can take days, weeks, months, or years, depending on the power of the story and how far we have buried the story in our own psyche. It is immensely powerful to face our stories. Look at them dead in the face and slowly release their power bottom line to live happier.

We have to face our past with patience and compassion for ourselves. We have been taught that our deepest needs feelings and desires are scary and we need to protect the world from them. So we hustle to perform, achieve and earn our worthiness. But it's time to be loyal to you to take off the mask, to face your high-functioning anxiety and to become confident in who you are.

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Episode 149: How To Recognize Trauma and Show Up for Our Inner Kiddo

In today’s episode, I am talking with Nicole Lewis-Keeber, a social worker, business therapist, and mindset coach about the T-word trauma and how it plays out in our lives.

Trauma.

This word is loaded for so many of us.

When we think of trauma, we think of what we call Big T Traumas: images of war, combat, natural disasters, physical or sexual abuse, terrorism, or catastrophic accidents usually come to mind. 

There are also Little T Traumas. These are often personally traumatic because of the timing, the place, or our emotional state: interpersonal conflict, divorce, infidelity, legal trouble, financial worries, moving, and many more. 

Although something could be considered a “Little T” Trauma, that doesn’t mean it’s less traumatic or less damaging. Instead, it allows us to see the word trauma in a different way and realize that it can take on many shapes and forms.

Today on the show, I’m kicking off the month by chatting with Nicole Lewis-Keeber. Nicole is a business therapist and mindset coach who works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their businesses. She's a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master’s in Social Work and has rich and varied experience as a therapist. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Nicole’s definition of big T trauma and little t trauma and how big T trauma explodes and little T trauma erodes

• How the personal development culture keeps us trapped by discouraging us from looking at our past

• Why the phrase “inner child” has gotten so much flack and why being willing to listen to your inner kiddo is so important

• How our inner kiddos come out in our present-day work and wreak havoc and what we can do about it

• Nicole’s tips for finding a quality coach or therapist

Resources mentioned:

• nicole.lewis-keeber.com
  

• Follow Nicole on Facebook

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nicole: We have been taught that if it's not big explosive and like life-changing in a moment, then it's not trauma. And that's just absolutely not true. That is a type of trauma. One of the other ones is, as you said, small to your little T trauma, and that is those cumulative experiences that we were have when we are in our formative years, which is usually when we're kids that change how we see ourselves.

They change how we value ourselves. They change how we feel, either responsible for something. And we'd begin to take that information in and it changes us

Nancy: in the professional development world. There is a belief that has been sold to us for too many years. Frequently, when you hear the difference between a coach and a therapist, you'll hear that a therapist makes you go into your past and dig up all your old wounds while the coach just takes you from where you are and moves you forward.

No need to go into the past and dig up all that stuff. I confess that I believed a version of that lie for too many years. I believe that while our past might influence our future, the important part was moving forward. I'm sure this belief was largely influenced by my monger, pushing my high functioning anxiety, self relentlessly toward accomplishing and doing it.

Who has time to look in the past. Let's keep marching forward as with everything in life. It isn't that. It isn't that explainable and it isn't that black and white, the process of personal growth is nuanced. Today. I know that ignoring huge parts of our personal history, won't help us move forward. We have to look at our past if fruit going to heal anything, we have to be willing to go back there and see what we're carrying into our current life, which is why I'm so excited for this episode.

A chance to put down the ever-present push towards the future and dive into the nuance of personal growth. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

This month, we're looking at our pasts. And more specifically, we're talking about the T word trauma. This word is so loaded for many of us. When we think of trauma, we think of war, natural disasters, physical or sexual abuse, terrorism, or catastrophic accidents. Those are what we call big T trauma. And then there are also the little T traumas.

These are things that happen in our lives that are personally traumatic because of the timing, the place or our emotional state. They can be interpersonal conflict, divorce, infidelity, legal trouble. Financial worries. Moving. Let me be clear because we call them little T traumas. That doesn't mean they're less traumatic or less damaging.

I believe the term loyalty allows us to see the word trauma in a different way because we've gotten so stuck in seeing trauma only in the big T trauma way. I think it's helpful to recognize that trauma can take on many shapes and forms. Today on the show. I'm kicking off the month by chatting with Nicole Lewis, Keeber a licensed clinical social worker with a master's in social work.

She is certified in Brené Brown’s dare to lead methodology and works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their business. She's been featured on numerous media outlets, including fast company and NPR for her work in breaking the stigma of mental health and business ownership.

She writes and speaks about the impact of small T trauma on businesses. But her biggest, most important work is combining therapeutic processes with business coaching to help entrepreneurs build emotionally sustainable and financially successful businesses. On this episode, Nicole and I talk about why the phrase inner child has gotten so much flack and why being willing to go back and listen to your inner kiddo is so important.

How the personal develop culture keeps us trapped by discouraging us from looking at our past Nicole's definition of big T and little T traumas and how big T traumas explode and little T traumas. How our inner kiddos come out in our present day work and wreck havoc and what we can do about it and tips for finding a quality coach or therapist today.

I'm very excited to have Nicole Lewis Keeber on our podcast. And we're going to talk about trauma. Yes. So welcome Nicole, before I I'm excited to have you here. So Nicole is also a social Worker?

Nicole: Yeah, I have a master's degree in social work and I'm a licensed clinical social worker. Okay.

Nancy: And Nicole specializes, or one of the things she works on is healing that inner kiddo as she calls it.

And I was telling Nicole, before we hit record that I have railed against the idea of which is very unusual for a therapist to rail against this, but railed against my idea of inner kiddo and little T traumas. And I feel like I have bought into. Incorrectly bought into all of the stereotypes and the crap, I will say that's around this topic.

And so I'm owning my own skepticism and I'm owning that. I have also talked about it in a skeptical way, and I went to bring, Nicole's going to start us off this month. We're talking about all things, trauma Going to start us off by dealing with my skepticism around this topic. So we're going to dive right in.

I love your phrase, inner kiddo. And a lot of times when we hear about healing, our inner child, the phrase inner child can be loaded. So I want to break it down and make it a little less scary for people. What does that mean and why is it important to be aware of our inner kiddo?

Nicole: Yeah, you're right. Like the, it does feel very loaded.

You, what comes to mind is like almost deep shamanic workers, something like go in and do a soul retrieval or, and not that those things are great. I know people who've benefited from things like that, but it does, it feels very heavy. And so that's one of the reasons why I say inner our kiddo, because I think it, it lightens it a little bit.

And really what it boils down to is that. As human beings, the thoughts, feelings, or behaviors we have as adults. They come from our experiences when we're kids, that's how we become who we are. That's how, the patterns of our behavior gets set in place. And so many of those experiences that we have that create that adult self

Are connected to experiences that we had when we were kids that made us think or feel something about ourselves in relationship to the world around us. And so when you look back, a lot of the times you can say, oh my gosh, when. For instance, when I was six years old in the first grade I was in the regular reading group and then I couldn't read the I'm still bitter about it.

I couldn't read the word lion because I couldn't read the word. I got demoted to a different reading group that was low.. And so that six year old, that was the very first initiation into my inner kiddo. My six year old, six year old inner kiddos saying, we're not smart.

We don't get it right. Which was reinforced multiple times over the years because I have alerted learning difference and prophets to process information differently. But that's six years. That first experience of being punished in a way for not being able to read a word, oh, she is still there.

So that is an inner kiddo of mine that got created that still whispers in my ear at 49 around things that I do in my life that require me to put myself out there.

Nancy: So it is just fascinating. It's like a duh, obviously the things we're going to have done as a, as the things that are going to have happened to us as a child are going to affect us growing up.

But I feel like the self-development world has said, especially one of the things that drives me the most crazy is in the differences between a therapist and a coach is they will say they being the coaches will say I will take you from now and move you forward. And those nasty therapists, they make you go into your past and pull stuff up and it's just yucky.

And so we don't want to do that. So we're just going to go. Forward and that just doesn't work

Nicole: . No. And what shaming language is that you did to abandon the first part of your life that you had before you met this daggum coach? That's telling you that none of that matters, and I get it.

When I started my own business, I was a money mindset coach for small business owners and entrepreneurs. And I. Really got taught a lot about mindset, tools and tricks and how not to focus on the past. We want to move you forward. We want to do this, want to do that. And I could not abide it for very long because I just saw that you know who we are, I'm trained with Brené Brown and her Dare to Lead processes.

So one of the things she says is who we are, is how we lead. Who we are came about by these experiences that we had. And then for a coach to say, we're going to ignore the first half of your life to help you be successful in the next chapter of it. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and it doesn't work and it's dismissive and bypassing and gaslighting.

And I don't like it.

Nancy: talk more about that. That it's dismissive and bypassing and gaslighting.

Nicole: I'm being really dramatic here. (laughter)

Nancy: No please, I think we need to, I think we need to dramatize this, bring this up. Put an exclamation point on this?

Nicole: Exactly. Because I've been a therapist, I've been a coach.

That's why my clients now call me a business therapist because I'm somewhere in the middle and I've been in therapy. I get it. It's dismissive because you're not meeting. If you're a coach and there's a lot of h arm done by coaches in the industry. And I'm sorry to say it is true. In fact, there's a lot of coach abuse that happens, which again, sorry to say, but it's true.

And what happens is that when someone's asking you to dismiss the thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and patterns that you have in your life, where do you go from there? What you go, where you go from there is you begin to mimic what this person is telling you to do, to be who they're telling you to be, to buy into their one trick pony model to change, all these people.

So it's dismissive because it does not allow for you to be who you are to understand yourself in a new way. And it's gaslighting because they're trying, I'm being really dramatic here. It's gaslighting because it is. It's having the experience of someone saying that wasn't true for you. You just weren't looking at it the right way.

Nancy: Oh yes. I don't think that's dramatic at all because I think that happens all the freaking time.

Nicole: And you should have the same experience of all these clients I've worked with, who come from diverse backgrounds, different experiences, different motivations, different opportunities. You should be able to have the exact same outcome that they have because.

Let's ignore everything that happened to you up to this day. That is gaslighting.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I felt that's dramatic at all because I think that is, that just repeats the process of what I'm experiencing. Isn't accurate. So I need to go outside of myself and figure out what they're experiencing and then swallow that as my experience.

And then it just sends us down the spiral again and again,

Nicole: It doesn’t bring all the versions of you with you. And that's why I love the in our kiddo work is because when we do this work, we bring your six year old. We bring your eight year. We brought your 16 year old, who can be a real, hell on wheels bias, but she's really fantastic in a lot of areas in my life and others, not so much, but she gets to be a part of it.

So we are not bi- passing her. We are not leaving them behind. They're getting healed with us along the way. And I think that is a true aligned experience in our life as we are healing and becoming the next version of ourselves when no one gets left behind. Yes.

Nancy: Because I think also, part of where I got dinged on it or messed up with it, or didn't enjoy being the inner child work was when I was doing my training.

And one of the. Professors would be, was very much in the model of, he was a narcissist He said it himself. It wasn't like, yeah, I should have known red flag right there. But he said he would pride himself on being able to talk to someone and then be like, oh, it wasn't this bad, but your dad wears blue pants.

And so now you don't like any man that wears blue pants and it was just like those connect and there wasn't any, is that true for you? Or does that resonate with you? It was just like, let's make these bizarro connections that I'm, I think it's scary to think. I might be unconsciously acting out things that I'm not even aware of.

Nicole: Yeah. And we all are though. Yeah,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so rather than facing that, I have been. Then no, I just, I can't, I push it away rather than being in the past, few years I've started being like, let's look at that rather than running from it.

Nicole: Good. Hey you are in company, excuse me. I was in the therapist's office as a therapist.

With her talking to me about, so what have you done to work on your trauma? And I'm like, yeah, I don't really think what I had was trauma. Like I was a therapist in the therapist chair yelling, or I still did not think that my trauma was trauma. Cause he wants to look at any of that.

No fun. Who wants to go back and think about your seven year old? Scary. Yeah. So I get it. Yeah.

Nancy: So let's talk about trauma, the big T word cause. And cause a lot of people have this definition. If I wasn't sexually assaulted it, that's the one I hear the most. If I wasn't molested, I wasn't sexually assaulted.

So therefore I have no trauma that it has to be some big T trauma, but really these little and not that big T trauma is, Yes. And there are little T traumas that happen all the time. And there is them the comparison of my trauma isn't as big as your trauma. So therefore I don't need to discuss it.

Nicole: Yeah. Brené brown calls that comparative suffering. Yeah. Again, been there, so yeah, let's unpack that a little bit. We, as we, as a culture, we don't like to talk about our feelings a whole lot. And we certainly don't like to talk about things, like trauma. And so we give very, a very small wedge of attention to what we will allow to be trauma.

And so as a culture, we tend to look at trauma as those big T traumas, catastrophic illness, violent violence or maybe you got in a really dramatic accident or Natural disaster know, stuff like that. You have PTSD, like combat trauma. Those are really the only places that we allow for anyone to.

To trauma, you had childhood child abuse these things. Yeah. And even then we don't have a comfort level where we allow people to really address it and get the appropriate attention and treatment for it. So we've barely allowed anyone to define trauma from a big T standpoint. We certainly, aren't going to make a lot of room for people to look at it from a small T standpoint.

Yeah. And to be honest with you, a lot of the small T traumas are connected with the systems around us and need us to be traumatized in order for them to work. And which is big, but yeah,

Nancy: talk about unpacking something

Nicole: So we have been taught that if it's not, big explosive and like life-changing in a moment, then it's not trauma and that's just absolutely not true.

That is a type of thing. There are other types of trauma and one of the types of trauma there's many of them, and I'm not going to go into all of them right here. But one of the other ones is, as you said, small T or little T trauma. And that is those cumulative experiences that we were have when we're in our formative years, which is usually when we're kids that change how we see ourselves.

They change how we value ourselves. They change how we feel either, responsible for something. And we'd begin to take that information in and it changes us. It changes how we see us and it can be things like maybe, you got bullied at school and I'm not talking the extreme. Bullying, but maybe just like everyday this, we don't want to play with you, or like me, I grew up with a learning difference and I'm 49 back then. They did not. I'm like back in the olden days, it was severe or learning disabilities, that any, if anyone got any attention whatsoever for their learning difference. And so I went through 12 years of school.

Not being able to learn the way I was being taught and just feel every day, going to this place every day and feeling lost, that is a traumatic experience and not a lot of people would consider to be trauma moving around a lot and always being the new kid having, a parent who's working all the time and you don't have their attention the way that you need.

Form your identity or your sense of self from this adult. Who's important to you. We could go on and on about how these small T traumas can show up for us that are very different for us. And, but they change how we see ourselves. And so I always say that big T trauma explodes, small T trauma erodes, but they are both powerful enough to move mountains.

because we don't identify those experiences, like getting made fun of, and with your book report or w not having money for lunch every day, whatever it may be. Like, it can be different for you. Whatever that is, we don't look at it towards trauma and therefore we internalize it and think that was just me.

Or maybe I deserved it, or everybody has a bad experience at school. I'm no different. And it takes away our agency over those. And people just accept it. They're just like, yeah, it was just stuff that happened. And a lot of times we don't make those connections that your best friend, not being your best friend anymore.

When you were 13 and went to junior high school impacts the fact that you have a hard time with your partner. I do a lot of business work with the partner that you have in your business right now. It absolutely does. Yeah, it absolutely does. And so there's small T traumas add up and they're usually more, covert and hide under the surface a bit, if they're a little bit harder to upack and make those associations and understand those patterns, unless you're willing to go back and look at that seven year old and say, what was it about that experience that you're still feeling now?

Yeah, but again, we don't look at trauma in the way as a culture and as a society in ways that allow for people to work through this process. So when you said earlier, like I didn't look at it and want to look at it. We are not socialized to look at it.

Nancy: Yeah, totally not. And, but it's interesting, even that example you gave, I remember sitting in my therapist office and having her say that's a little T trauma and me being like oh no, and it was, it's a story I tell over and over that I went to college andI did not fit in.

It was a bad fit for me in and I was miserable and. And all the things I did in that time to, to try to fit in. And I didn't, and I was like swimming upstream. And that affected me, like in my ability to make friends as an adult, in my ability to talk about my college experience, because everyone else had an amazing college experience, but mine sucked and what's wrong with me.

And. But all of those things that I could say to you now, oh yeah. This major, legally affect my life. Even saying that I'm still embarrassed to say it was a little.

Nicole: Yeah. We've been socialized not to. Permission slips are a big thing permission to, feel it and I said earlier I did have, I had small T trauma.

I also had big T trauma. I had a parent who was very abusive, and even still sitting on that couch because it was a couch sitting on that couch. I still said I don't know that I would go so far as to say what happened to me was trauma. And she was like, Yes it is. And I was like, yeah, but she, it wasn't like, a good time to penny.

Did you watch that show?

Nancy: No. No.

Nicole: Okay. I'm dating myself again. It wasn't like, the afterschool special where you see the kid, abuse and neglect, like what, the way that people think about it. So I would say, and again, I was a therapist still saying this out loud, cause it had to do with me.

And I was like, I don't really know if it would. And I said, but all these other people who have all these terrible experiences, I see those as trauma. I just don't know if I get to have I get the claim, that word, like I deserve it to be that word, which is so messed up when you think about it. But it was so very true.

Cause I hadn't really allowed myself at that point. To see that those things were in fact big T and small T traumas, until I could really understand that I couldn't move through the process to heal it.

Nancy: Yeah. Because that was the, the irony is once I, once she said that to me, I think that's a little too trauma.

And then I came home and I shared that with my husband, which took everything I had because I'm sure I was sure he was going to be like, get over yourself. I then was like, Gave myself so much more grace and kindness around it, and then could see it playing out in my life. And when I would go into social situations would be like, you're not 22, you're 47.

Get it, we can do this, we are that we're not replaying this. And just that little permission to be like, this was a big deal. Helped so much, but if we don't give ourselves that this is a big deal. We're constantly minimizing. And then I would be the first to share with someone how much I hated, I had this demonizing of my college of the university, how much I hated it and it was miserable and I'll tell them, I would tell people not to go there.

But that was because of my own little T trauma that I'm like throwing up all over the world about

Nicole: exactly. Beause what does trauma do? It creates a pattern, right? And so the traumatizing experiences tip sometimes goes away or the traumatizing person goes away their circumstance. And what happens is we pick it up after that point and we continue to traumatize ourselves with the experience of it.

Like we pick it up at that point, we become the person playing out the pattern, the belief system around it. It becomes ours at that point. So no matter what the trauma is, that's a pattern that happens around trauma and that you can see play out in that. And that's how it works. But if we don't allow ourselves to see it as a trauma, then we miss those opportunities to see how those patterns.

Really happen. And I was at a retreat couple of years ago that I was asked to come be a part of, and my goodness, there were people in that room that were tentatively rolling out the fact that they had a sexual assault. And they're like, yeah, I guess maybe that was probably a small T traumas and I'm pulling my hair out.

It was a big T trauma and you can't even let yourself have that, oh my goodness. name it!

Nancy: And you think that is socialization.

Nicole: Yes. Mostly socialization. Yes. Yes. Because lifts, if you grew up in, you had an abusive parent, if you grew up in a system around religion, like these systems around us usually are the ones that are participating in some of those traumatizing events.

And so what benefit do they have? They have, let us experience them. Speak about them and get help with them. We get socialized too, childhood's rough, no one had a great childhood, just suck it up and deal with it. Or, works just like that corporations are evil. Like we just get socialized into just shut up and deal with it.

Nancy: Yeah. So how, because even as I'm talking, is that even if my monger, I call my mom the inner critic, my monger is saying. Oh, that was such a stupid example you gave, as someone has such a bigger trauma and you're giving your freaking example from college. Come on, like that's, it's insidious.

Nicole: Yeah, our inner critics are very loud.

And honestly, I always say you have a loud inner critic. It means that you probably had a lot of, Hey, I probably have more childhood trauma that you need to unpack. Because I really believe, I think our inner critic is there for a lot of these there's people who tell you, as a part of our nervous system, it's a part of us.

That's supposed to keep us alive and keep us on the straight and narrow as far as, our reptilian ancient nervous system and our, our. Prefrontal cortex, right? Yeah. It's really new part of our anatomy, old brainstem and system is really geared towards like that list. Scary. Don't do that.

What can I do to get you not to do that? Can I berate you internally until you don't do the thing? Like it's a truth thing. But I always say that I feel like our inner critic is connected to our inner kiddos and that it's a protector of them. And so that's why I always tell people, I'm like, don't shut down your inner critic.

Don't dismiss it. Don't say it, kill it, fire it, all the things we tell you to do get curious about it because it's usually protecting some inner kiddo that needs some attention.

Nancy: So how would you do that?

Nicole: This is what I do. I say. So when my inner critic starts to get up there, I'm like, okay. So I'm doing what I'm experiencing feels unsafe.

Right or it feels vulnerable. Like I just shared an experience and I'm comparing it to what other people might think trauma is. And so my inner critic is trying to put me out, get me back on track, show me not to do that thing anymore, or to protect the younger version of me. And so what I will say is I hear you, I'm listening.

And what oftentimes say all the time. Cause sometimes your inner critic's just being the pain in the ass, but they, 80% of the time, what will happen is the inner critic, voice will step aside in a younger voice version. It sounds. And I don't have multiple personality. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's what people are afraid about.

When I talk about this work, they're like, you're going to make me, oh, get the Sybill, from the seventies. No, that's not how it works. What will happen is a younger version of voice will say I, I, it feels like the Lunchroom, in school and the first day again, that didn't feel nice.

I didn't like that. Where do I fit? I don't feel like I belong somewhere. Like when you take a breath and you say, I hear you what do you need here? A lot of times I'll come up and then you can attend to it and say, oh, you're right. That did feel like the first day of school in the cafeteria.

When you can't find your place and you don't feel like people know you and you feel misunderstood. Like I totally get that. And I'm so sorry. And you're still. We're good. We're good. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, because that's, when I first, I talk about acknowledging your feelings, like that's, when you hear your inner critic talk, then, start acknowledging your feelings.

But the trick to that is really what you're saying is you have to go, it's not just what I'm feeling right now. Like you have to be willing to go a little under the surface because sometimes you might be thinking you're feeling angry or ashamed, but you're really sad or and fearful because the inner kiddo is sad and fearful from that example.

So it's a deeper work than just. Acknowledge your feelings, which people can do like mindlessly, if that, like they can name off their feeling mindlessly, but you ground into the feeling

Nicole: exactly. Why am I having these feelings? I can identify them, but like, why me? Yeah. Because you felt this before, and you felt this before in a place in time when you didn't have a lot of power and agency over your life.

And that seven year old still thinks that she doesn't have any power or that, not having, not having a seat at that table means something about her, and so when you can unpack that my 49 year old self knows that's not true. And that we're no longer there and that, perfectly fine, but she doesn't know that.

And so you have to catch it.

Nancy: Yeah, yeah. And that's a lot of times, one of, I remember a client of mine who said the most powerful thing I ever said to her was to remind herself that she's not eight years old, like to be like I'm 47. And she said she's cause I walk around like an eight year old all the time.

Absolutely.

Nicole: I can't tell you how many people were running their businesses from their 12 year old self, but actually every day, a lot are running the PTO meetings from their 12 year old. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Or Instagramming from their 12 over their 15 year old self.

Nancy: Exactly. They're 15. I can totally see that.

Yeah. But it is such an unconscious. Thing that's playing there. And so that's what's so what has been interesting just in my own personal journey, professional, whatever personal now from professional to personal is the idea that Once I started tapping into it is about building a self loyalty. It is about acknowledging your feelings.

Then I couldn't ignore those inner kiddos anymore. Like they had to see them cause it wasn't just about thinking positive and mindset and being, all that bullshit. It was, a deeper work and that has made all the difference. But it's not easy and it's not comfortable and it's, but we spin our wheels on the thinking positive and the mindset stuff and the surface, we're just spinning our wheels at that surface level.

When dropping down into the, into what's really there is where it's.

Nicole: Yeah. And it's true. It's absolutely true what you're saying and it mindset work. It works right. It can, but you have to have done some work prior, at least in my belief is that you have to have done some work prior to allow yourself to know that there is a choice to be made.

If you have trauma operating, it is so unconscious. And it's so instantaneous you, when you think about polyvagal theory and the fact that we've decided we were safe or not, before we even put our foot all the way into our room, because our nervous system is working, at that level. How are you supposed to believe in law of attraction if you've already, if your nervous system, because of trauma has already made that up before you even have the choice to make the decision.

There's work that has to do before that. And I'm all about, claiming a positive outcome. I'm all about choosing to see something in a new light, but not at the expense of, bypassing my humanness and my emotions. And also, I don't want to tell myself that being sad.

Angry disappointed any of those things are bad things. They are a part of who we are and we get to experience all of them. So again, that we've been socialized, not to claim our full self in that includes mad, sad, glad, and when we go straight to the positive, my dear cousin, as a coach on transformational positivity, I love her.

I don't know how we both came from the same family, but I love her. And it's really all about she's like I had no interest in you and being Pollyanna. I have no interest in you being a human doormat. Positivity has nothing to do with that. If it's transformational, positivity around how you choose to see the world, because you've done your work to have agency and sovereignty over yourself.

And when did we get told to do that, right? Yeah. Let's just do that. So I love to hear what you're saying about the work that you've done, so that you can see the mindset stuff and the positivity, cause it is bullshit. It is absolute bullshit until you allow the other stuff to work first,

Nancy: because even the idea of saying reminding yourself, you're not eight years old, And you're 47 is if you haven't done the work around that, of what that really means, that's just a mindset shift that won't hold.

Nicole: Nope. We'll hold. Beause you have to trust for the stuff to work. All the law of attraction stuff you have to trust and believe that it is possible. And if you have trauma and you have a seven year old, just a wounded, no, that's not happening.

Nancy: Yeah, because you could go into the meeting and fake it, that you're a 47 year old, but that seven year old inside of you is still,

Nicole: she's calling bullshit on you and your critic gets really, your critic gets really pissed off

Nancy: .Yeah. That is that is I'm I, that I'm speechless, which doesn't happen very often. Cause I really want to it makes me so angry. The. How this industry is con is messing this up so much and the socialization piece because everyone, I, everyone I talk to is railing against this. That sucks.

That's extreme to say everyone I talked to, but a lot of people are railing against this. So even in your, so your business is you're working with helping people solve this stuff for their business. Do you. And so the people that are buying in to you have to be. Is there a level of convincing them that this is important?

Nicole: Yes and no. So I would say 80% of what I do when I speak, do you know a workshop work with clients, coaching? I don't really call it coaching, but whatever I don't know what it is. Transformational work. Is education. Okay. Because we have been so taught that what trauma is and what isn't.

And so a lot of it really does have to do with educating and shining a light on how this is different so that they can let go of the shame, guilt responsibility. The should to really allow for that even still their needs buy-in. Cause what they can see is they can see that their business has become unmanageable.

And I'm just using this as example that their life has become unmanageable, their businesses become unmanageable and no matter what they do to try and fix it, it's not quite working because. They don't have the full picture. They don't have the inner kiddo work. They haven't recognized that the experiences they had were trauma as an in fact, which requires a different lens to see it through.

They don't see that, they keep hiring employees, but they don't let them do their job. And so they end up with all the work still in their lap and a salary to cover. So they see the pain points if you want to call it that, but they still need some convincing that. It is that.

And so I'm constantly saying, that's because this was a trauma and not, a one-time experience or that was because your seven year old doesn't let his, is projecting onto this person or is triggered by this type of client or, if a constant unr aveling to help people really understand that it's not an overnight thing.

So the buy-in has to be continuous around it. It really does,

Nancy: but it would be to see the transformation in your business would be. I don't know what you're doing to me, Nicole, but I'll keep doing it because I'm seeing this transformation in my business.

Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Yep. It's you know, I've worked with people who have businesses or people who are CEOs, whomever it is when you can see that you have an inner board of directors who is making decisions about what you were doing in your career business, whatever.

And that the majority of them are under the age of 18. And that they are very concrete thinkers. When you can see that and you can attend to that piece of it and bring them on board or send them off to have a cracker or give them a job, like whatever that may be, then, everything can change.

Your situation, your relationship with your money can change. The relationship with your business can change your relationship with yourself changes. It's just very impactful, and one of the things that, I keep talking about Brené brown, cause I just finished up a cohort or dare to lead with people.

And so she's in my brain. But one of the things that she'll say is, what is the story I'm telling myself about this? And when we can do that, when we have these challenging experiences, it helps us train ourselves to see things differently and make different choices and feel a different way about ourselves.

And so it's very expansive. Once you can do this work.

Nancy: Cause I know for me, like in my business, I know I'll hire someone and then I eventually get, oh, the last time it happened, it was I held it off for longer than I normally do, but it would happen that I would end up abdicating my business to them.

So I would hire an assistant and then they would come in with some ideas and I would just be like, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. And I would let go of the reins and let them take it. And then eventually would be mad at them. For taking the reins in the wrong direction or being too bossy or not letting me up my business, like I would turn it on them.

And I saw that happening years ago. Like I knew that's what I was doing, but it wasn't until I said to myself, wait a minute, this is a pattern from childhood that you would abdicate. You had to abdicate and get, you have to, and someone else, my dad was very domineering. He took over and that was great.

And he would tell me what to do. And it was really comfortable for me. That's a really comfortable place to be and really uncomfortable all at the same time. And so it wasn't until I really started unpacking that. And even more so than the recently when my last virtual assistant she had, she found a full-time job, so she left, but I noticed it was starting to happen.

Like I was starting to do that same pattern. And so it's just fascinating that it's more than just looking at, oh, there's the pattern. Let me change my mindset. But about, I got to go back there and unpack that and see where it starts to happen and be like, oh, there it is. You're abdicating right there.

Nicole: Was this myself with as much self-compassion as you can, right? Because it is a trauma pattern and patterns have to be disrupted and they have to be disrupted more than once. And we have to build out the new way of being right, building those new neuropathways like we've got this entrenched way of being.

It's not going to be easy or natural to move into this new way of being until awhile. And that's why unpacking this and having this knowledge about ourselves and being able to look at it in ways that are not as connected to shame and blame about this is what happened. This is the pattern it created.

This is how I've been showing up. This is how I want to show up. And these are. Kiddos. I need to get on board for that. This is a trauma I need to recognize and to do so with as much, self compassion and grace as you can, because that's, what's going to make all the difference.

Yeah. Like you just said that pattern, that you've noticed and recognized you're going to catch it sooner than next time, or you're going to put this stuff in place. So it doesn't end up being that way where you say, the final decision will always come to me, and we will discuss it, but I always get final say, and this is how we.

Operationalize that you tell them. I tell you what the final say is you tell me what you're going to do to enact, to make it happen. And then I say, yep, that works. We're on the same page. Let's go do it. Yeah. More steps, more work. And it, in the long run, it's easier.

Nancy: Yeah, because for the, it was annoying for the assistants.

Because they were like, wait a minute, you told me you changed the rules. You told me to do this. Then now all of a sudden you're mad at me like, which I could see that, but I couldn't see it. You know what I'm saying? I couldn't see the hook yeah. Where it was coming from. Yeah, and even, like the idea of when this is totally left field, but the idea of I'm always amazed.

My dad died a few years ago and the how your body can sense the trauma before you can. And so it'll be January and all start feeling goofy. And more memories of him will come in or that's when he died, and it will hit my body before it hits my mind of, oh yeah. That's what's, that's what we're feeling sad about.

Yeah,

Nicole: Our body knows. And when we ignore it or stuff, what, what happens? It shows up in our body first with illness or an injury, our bodies will not let us off the hook when it comes to processing stuff or paying attention to it. We ignore it, but our bodies are wise. And I don't know if this is a term that people call that I used to call it a sense memories because I would wake up and be in the most fallow mood and could not figure out like, what is up with this day.

And then eventually figure out, oh, that was the anniversary of my parents' divorce. I don't pay attention to those dates really. But my body's oh yeah, it's June 18th or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of wisdom there

Nancy: there. Yeah. A ton of wisdom there. Okay. So what are your, so keeping in mind as we've lambasted the entire.

Personal growth industry.

Nicole: There's a lot of good folk up in there.

Nancy: So what are some of your tips for help for helping people find good people to work with?

Nicole: Yeah. Investigation there is a fair amount of personal development that you can do on your own. I really do believe it. Like getting into the awareness state then started to.

Get curious about where this might show up for you. There's things you can do when you're reading books, taking, watch it over or whatever that, at some point we need someone to hold space for us or hold the container for us to let go our defense as much as possible and begin to do some of that healing and transformational work.

You can't do that on your own as well, because you know how people say you can't read your own label when you're inside the jar, right? Yeah. And nor should you. If you're doing this work, you should not have to do this alone, right? Yeah. You deserve to have someone hold you and create, some safety for you to be able to relax a little bit.

People love the personal development world and I'm not opposed to what I've benefited from that a lot, but what allowed me to be able to benefit from some of it's because I had done some work in therapy first, right? And to be perfectly honest with you, a lot of people in the personal development world found one thing that worked for them and that's what they teach.

And they can't always attend to people who have something different than them, or, they were a marketer who went through some personal pain. They were someone who has a marketing background, who went through a personal transformation. And now to share that with everyone, we come to it, how we come to it.

So any aha moment I think is valuable, right? Yeah. I'm not crediting that, but I think that what comes next is who do you choose to work with? You know if you've had trauma, if you identified, Hey yeah, this was trauma. I really want you to be in, in capable hands. And so my go-to always is listen.

That is a childhood trauma. It, and I really feel like that if you should probably work with a therapist who's trauma informed. So maybe someone who maybe understands internal family systems, because that's a lot. Like this inner kiddo stuff and like the parts of yourself, that's very much like internal family systems.

And so I will tell people I'm like you deserve to have someone to support you through this. What is it that you're looking to get relief from? May not know what it is specifically, but how do you want to feel differently? Can you do this in person or do you need to do it virtually, like what works for you?

And do you need to use your insurance to help you pay for it? That's a whole different, category. And so it could, whether it's a therapist or whether it's a healer or, whether it could be a trauma. And I'm just going to say a trauma, at least the trauma informed coach. If you're going to work with a coach, please make sure that you interview them and get references and look at their work.

Make sure they've been around longer than six months. You understand that they are I trauma informed or trauma. Yeah, please. Yeah. You don't want anyone to just unpack, in your psyche, right? They can, a lot of harm can be done. So I would prefer that people start. If they've got trauma, start out with a therapist, if that's at all possible.

That's always my preference and go-to because I know they have a base skillset and licensing body, typically that's overseeing them. That will keep you safe. Like you'd be safer. Yeah. Afraid to interview the therapist. Don't be afraid to interview them and find out are you a good fit? Do you have, are you like-minded in some ways where I live here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, it's a very conservative area is a very religious based area.

And so it is hard to find a therapist here. It's getting better, hard to find a therapist here that is not. Trained and has a platform that is very much sacred, and religious base. So if that's important to you, then you need to do some interviewing and, I always tell people I'm like people give more effort, trying on and finding the right pair of jeans and they do finding a therapist and they throw up their hands.

Say it didn't work. No, go to the next one. You deserve this. Try again. Give it three sessions before you decide, because we're not mind readers. We can't know what you need all in the 45 minute span of working with someone to get rid of minute as well. So that's a long answer to say that I really want you to.

If you can start with a trauma informed therapist, if you are recognizing that you have some kind of trauma.

Nancy: Yeah. I wanted a long answer because a lot of times, it was just like, oh, hop on psychology today, ended up blah, blah, blah. But I, but that idea of interviewing your therapist and paying attention to everything, how they respond to your emails, how they respond to the phone calls, if they are willing to be interviewed, if they're, if they're, all of that stuff just is.

Investigative work, as you said in, cause this is someone I'm going to be sharing my deepest innermost thoughts with, I need to click with them and not just abdicate to them that they know everything. And I know nothing. It needs to be a partnership.

Nicole: It absolutely needs to be a partnership. And if you keep finding fault with every single person, then, what is you, your inner critic and your resistance is railing its head and that's okay.

And you can call it out and say to the therapist, I'm having a lot of resistance, like I'm finding this thing and that thing, like it's okay. We're we don't allow ourselves to have honest conversations about this and that they are not God, they can't read your mind and that this is a partnership.

So the more honest and open you can be, which I know is hard. The better and easier it will be for them to partner with you in the healing process for you. That is, that works for you, not what worked for the client before them, or that works for everyone who read that book or whatever,

Nancy: yeah.

Thank you for giving all that information, because that's really helpful for people because I think therapy and this work just sounds, we make it somewhere. Scary and threatening than it actually is. And we need to own that. It's scary and threatening, yeah. So anything else you would want people to know? Before we close up.

Nicole: So I also want to say, I know some highly skilled coaches that are niched into one specific area that they've done a lot of work, but that this is their thing healing, the, The challenging relationship between mothers and daughters.

That's not, I just want to say, that's not to say that there aren't people in the transformational healing, coaching world that aren't doing really good work. I know people who are doing fantastic work and they have the opportunity to really help people with this one thing. Because.

They've really done all this research and they have extreme expertise in it in a way that maybe, a generalist, a social worker therapist, like myself could have a general idea of it, but not the very specific drill down knowledge, that this person has. Want to discount that there are people out there doing good work.

Just to call that out and also to say that, if you can avoid going to the yellow pages or making some kind of random choice when it comes to a therapist, the people, if you feel comfortable, your doctor, people, peers, friends, they probably have a line on a really good therapist already.

People don't talk about it. They probably do to allow your people in, to know where you're at and what you're looking for as well. Yes. And

Nancy: a lot of times the therapist, like if you're interviewing therapists, they may have, I am quick to say I don't do trauma. I am not, I don't have the inner family systems.

That is not something I've studied, but here are some names of people that I know are good. So a therapist will be able to refer you to people too, if you. That's another way of getting more information. Yeah.

Nicole: I refer people to therapists all the time. I'm like, this is not the work I do, you need to see a therapist first before we do this work together. Or you need to say the therapist while we're working on your business. Like I'm fine to partner with your therapist.

Nancy: Yeah. I appreciate, I'm glad you said that about the specific coach, coaches that are specifically in things I think.

Where I have found the danger with coaches is someone who is gone through a divorce and then said, I can heal all people in divorces and, or they've saved their marriage, quote unquote. And now they can heal all people and saving their marriage. And there needs to be more to their body of work than just their own personal trauma or.

Hardship that they've overcome, it needs to be, your additional work, and I've done additional work in Brené brown. You've done additional work in Brené Brown, having that continual education piece behind the work, I think is what's important is one of the factors that support.

I agree. Cool. No not to be slamming all coaches.

Nicole: No, but it's a highly unregulated population that really, I can wake up tomorrow morning and say, I'm a coach. It just says it's just the facts, so we have to do our due diligence around

Nancy: it. Yeah. Okay. Nicole, thank you for this awesome conversation.

I'm so glad that to jump into the, I call this jumping into the deep water. But I'm contributing to the cultural norming that this is a scary thing. Instead of just being like, this is life, we've all lived parts of our lives that have had little T traumas and we need to address them in order to keep moving forward.

It's really that simple.

Nicole: Yeah. Just claim them. We don't have to get rid of them. We just claim them, recognize them, invite them in. And sometimes we find them out the play and it's just, it's a part of who we are. Yeah. So it's a part of being human.

Nancy: Chatting with Nicole reminded me of the power of shining a light on our history with empathy and kindness.

It isn't just about looking at the bright, shiny, happy moments, but at the times that were challenging and painful. Here's what I know to be true. Looking at our past isn't about getting stuck there, engaging in blame or playing the victim. Looking at our past is about self loyalty. It's about owning where you came from and all the messiness that went with it.

It's about having kindness and empathy for our inner kiddo who did the best she could with what she had. And if we don't acknowledge her, she'll come out to play in our future. The bottom line is how can we heal our lives when we're ignoring huge parts of our past.

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Episode 148: The Adventure of Fully Showing Up As A Human Being

In today’s episode, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency as people with High Functioning Anxiety is to do two things: 1) give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman, and 2) continually look for that easy fix.

Go big or go home. 

Dream big! 

Do big things.

That’s what all the self-help gurus and Pinterest tell us to do. But is it really the answer? 

We can all think of a time where we thought that going big—moving somewhere new, going after that new career, or buying an awesome house or car—would be the solution to all of our problems. 

Yet more often than not, we find that those big moves aren’t the answer to our inner happiness nor our problems. I’ve found in my own experience as well as working with clients that doing the inner work and facing our humanness is what we need to do first.

That’s where the true big adventure lies.

All this month, I’ve been talking about Being Human. I spoke with Tara McMullin in Episode 145 about being human in your business and with Sarah Kathleen Peck in Episode 147 about getting unstuck and out of your own way. 

In today’s episode, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency as people with High Functioning Anxiety is to do two things: 1) give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman, and 2) continually look for that easy fix.  

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our Monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings

• 3 ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman

• Why self-loyalty is the ultimate act of being human

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Years ago I was a career coach. I helped people figure out the work that would make their heart sing. That was my tagline. Find the work that makes your heart sing. Sounds wonderful. Doesn't it? I had a series of assessments and operative, certain number of sessions where I walked clients through. How to find that work and frequently we would land on something that clients wanted to explore.

Then I set them forth into the world to explore this new career and all the possible ways to achieve it. Inevitably three to six months later, I would hear from some of my clients saying, Hey, you know, can we go back and do that assessment part again? Because I loved learning about myself and taking the assessments, but I don't know if we landed on the right career.

It didn't take me long to realize there was something wrong with that's my approach. I realized by promising that I was going to help people find the work that makes their heart sing. I was setting them up to fail. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. By promising to help clients find the work that makes their heart sing. I was sending you the message that it was an instantaneous process, five short sessions, and your life can be magically changed. All your self doubt, fear, insecurities, poof. They will all be gone. And all you need to do is find that perfect match.

Sounds amazing, but that's not how it works. That's not how being human works. Nothing worthwhile is magical instantaneous or. All this month, we've been talking about being human. We've talked with Tara McMullin about being human in your business. The quest to be superhuman and getting unstuck with Sara, Kathleen Peck.

Today, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency, as people with high functioning anxiety is to do one of two things. One just give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman. Like I talked about in episode 1 46, or to continually look for that easy fix, we convince ourselves that there is a magical holy grail.

If only we were better people or had more time or would finally get our crap together, we could find that next big thing, discover our zone of genius and that would make everything right. To illustrate this idea. I want to share a story of a former client who came into my office sharing about the big changes she wanted to make.

She said to me, I want my life to be one of those Pinterest quotes, you know, live your big dreams, go big or go home. I feel like life is passing me by and I want to do something big with my life. I want to chase my big dreams, move to Paris and be a fashion designer. I need to shift it. For my client going big was how she was going to find the work that made her heart sing.

In reality, going big was something she was never going to do because it was just too scary. And as long as she held herself to the standard go big or go home, she was always going to be home feeling miserable and stuff. As we talked, she shared that a major regret was not finishing her degree. She was in a dead end relationship and she felt left behind by her friends who were getting married and having kids.

She was feeling lost. And when she looked online for answers, the answer was go big. The world of self-help. Full of messages about going big and dreaming big. It always makes me ask when did big get to be the line in which we measured our happiness, the world of motivational quotes talks about making big, bold decisions and taking big risks.

But is that always the way. During our work together, my client and I talked about how she defined big and how it would show up. Eventually her big dreams got clearer and it turned out they really weren't so big anymore. She didn't really want to move. She loved being close to her face. She really wanted to do graphic design, not fashion design.

And she didn't know if she really wanted to have kids or not. So over the next year, we worked on helping her speak up in a relationship which she eventually left and she started showing up in small ways in her life. She asked for what she needed. She said, no, she set better boundaries. She finished her degree in graphic design and worked for a small startup marketing company doing design.

At least that is what going big means for her dreams, Gusto and adventure, all change over time. One of the key parts of that story is that we did that work for over a year. It wasn't instant. It wasn't magical. It was intentional focused work at the end of our work together. She said to me, I feel way more adventurous now than if I had moved because showing up fully in my life is hard.

If I had moved, I would have missed out on this exciting part of my knife. Now, if I want to move, I'm not moving in search of something. I'm moving simply to see something different. Sometimes when life gets challenging and we don't know what to do next, the temptation is to blow it all up. But I wonder if at the point of thinking, maybe blowing it all up.

Isn't the answer that is when the adventure really begins. I remember in my early thirties, I too wanted to live the Pinterest. Although there was no Pinterest at that time, but I wanted to do something big with my life. I traveled to Peru with a group of strangers. I drove solo across the country twice, once to the east coast at wants to the west coast.

And finally, I decided I wanted to move to Portland, Oregon. I wanted to take my own big, bold adventure. I took a trip to visit Portland with a dear friend of mine, whom I consider to be my second mom. And as we were driving around Portland, I pointed at the back of a car and said, I can't wait until I have an Oregon license plate on my car, because then I'll be happy.

Then I will know that I have lived my big adventure. My second mom simply smiled and nodded and we kept on travel. Over time. Like my client, I realized that living my big adventure had nothing to do with moving to Portland. Although it is still one of my favorite cities, I was looking for a quick fixed.

I believe that when I moved to Portland, I would become a different person, magically. I would know how to set boundaries with family and friends, be comfortable sharing my thoughts and needs and be free of the nasty monger in my head. That was crippling. Similar to my clients who thought the answer to all their problems was by finding the perfect career that made their heart sing.

I believe that the answer to all my self doubt, fear and insecurities was to be found in Portland, Oregon, through my own therapy and lots of discussions with my close friends, I realized the adventure of Portland wasn't going to fix me. The adventure of Portland was just that an adventure. What I decided to do took more patients in time.

I decided to make another equally adventurous decision and put my move on hold to Portland and to stay in Columbus, Ohio, and show up for my life. At the time, it was a temporary decision. I stayed in Ohio and I went on a personal quest to quiet my monger, set, healthier boundaries and stop turning my back on myself and build my own self-love.

Which is why self loyalty is so important to me, it was through this process of wanting to move. I realized how loyal I was to everyone else and how I regularly discounted myself. I believed that when I moved to Portland, I would be able to wipe the slate clean and start over. And then over time I realized in Portland, I would still be me just in a different city with the same baggage.

And if I didn't start the work on myself first, I would just recreate the life I had in Columbus. As I started to build stuff, loyalty life in Columbus became easier. I wasn't as afraid to speak up for myself. I started making decisions based on my own internal values and wisdom rather than constantly checking with my external committee for validation.

Life became more rich and meaningful because I was more engaged in my life rather than jumping through hoops to make everyone else happy. Moving to Portland became less attractive. And I stayed in Columbus, met my now husband and build our life together. So a few years later, my second mom surprised me with the present.

It was an Oregon license plate. As I opened it, I smiled. And she looked at me and said, I just wanted to remind you that this license plate isn't what makes you happy? You make you happy that license plate sits in my office to remind me every day. That for me going big means fully showing up in my life.

The good, the bad and the ugly. Life continues to be full of freaking ups and downs. It isn't perfect here in Columbus and it wasn't going to be perfect in Portland, but it wasn't about where I lived. It was about who I am, where I live. Don't get me wrong. I love a good event. I love big risk-taking adrenaline pumping adventures, but somewhere along the way, we were sold a bill of goods that adventures and risks are directly correlated to being better.

People that a great life is only achieved by living great adventures, which means taking big risks and doing great things. But I'm here to argue sometimes going big means fully showing up as a human being. Being fully present and empathetic when your child comes home from a bad day, even though you have a thousand other things you need to do or telling your spouse that you're struggling and needing some time to do it, compress, holding the hand of your aging parent, looking them in the eyes and telling them how much you love them, admitting to yourself.

You can't do it all anymore and figuring out what are the small changes you need to make in order to bring more self loyalty into your. Giving yourself kindness after receiving some criticism at work, rather than your usual emo, which is to jump all over yourself, these things, they take big courage.

They take big adventure. So often our tendency is to want to fix everything right now. And we can fix things by making big sweeping changes, but that isn't how human beings make change. Everything takes time and has a ripple effect. Learning how to build self loyalty takes time. As many of you know, I have chronic arthritis and a few days ago, the pain was simply miserable.

I had pushed myself all day to stay productive and get things done. And I was standing in the kitchen struggling to make dinner and engaged in my default self-talk of come on, you could do this just a little bit more followed by. There are many people out there who have it so much worse than you be grateful.

You just have to keep pushing. And then somewhere, my biggest fan showed up and said, okay, sweet pea. Let's practice. What you preach. Talk to yourself with kindness. I took a breath and quietly said to myself, this is so freaking hard. Being in pain sucks. I am so tired of pushing and hustling through the pain.

I'm just tired. And immediately tears came to my eyes, my whole body softened. And I felt seen for the first time, rather than viewing myself as something that needed to be fixed or improved, I just gave myself kindness for where I was. This is the power of showing up for ourselves of building self loyalty of embracing our humanness.

That is such an amazing illustration of showing up and being human. We don't have to make big sweeping changes to put our lives on hold, waiting for that magical time. When we had everything figured out, it starts today with small, intentional changes, just like working with my client, small, intentional changes of checking in with yourself, knowing and living from your values and constantly recalibrating all from a place of kindness and self love.

Let's do this. Let's take back the belief that we need to make big, bold changes. Let's do something radical. Let's embrace our humanness and start making small, intentional daily changes.

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Episode 147: How to Get Out of Your Own Way and Get What You Want

In today’s episode, I am talking with Sarah Kathleen Peck the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast about how to get out of your own way when you are stuck in insecurity and doubt.

Have you been feeling a bit stuck lately, wondering what comes next? 

Saying to yourself that there has to be more? 

If so, you’re not alone.

That’s because I’ve been asking myself these questions lately, too. I’ve noticed that whenever I’m in this place for too long, it usually means I’m looking for the “right answer.” I’m trying to find the “perfect” next step. 

I’m wrapped up in fear, doubt, and insecurity. 

Those feelings are not uncommon when you’re stuck. But when it becomes a pattern—fear, doubt, and insecurity lead to staying stuck and staying stuck leads to those feelings—that’s when getting out of your own way gets tricky. 

This month, I’m continuing this month’s theme of Being Human with Sarah Kathleen Peck. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate everyday insanity. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• There are two types of people: those who know what they want and they’re having a hard time going after it and those who are stuck and don’t know what they want

• Why we all know the answer to what comes next—we just need to get out of our own way

• What I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way

• How our culture has brainwashed us into pushing, pushing, pushing when sometimes the best thing to do is pull back

Resources mentioned:

• startuppregnant.com

• Follow Sarah and Startup Parent on Instagram

• How To Get What You Want course (use this link half off!)

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: We're human. And we are in, I think very nuanced, very contextual situations that change. We are in like peculiar habits and histories. And we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that is a challenging individual and interpersonal that collaborative work

Nancy: Lately I've been feeling stuck, stuck with the question of what comes next saying to myself.

There has to be more right whenever I'm in this place for too long, it usually means I'm looking for the quote unquote answer, trying to find the perfect next step. And I'm all wrapped up in fear, doubt and insecurity. So today on the show, I have Sarah Kathleen Peck, the founder and CEO of startup parent, and the host of the startup parent podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate every day in sanity.

You're in for a unique treat. On this episode, Sarah turned the tables on me. And coach me through my everyday and sanity, which is exactly what I was feeling.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

We are continuing this month's theme of being human with my own humanness on display. As you were talking, Sarah spontaneously started coaching me and helping me get out of my own way. And it was incredibly helpful. Sarah is a writer, speaker startup advisor, and yoga teacher based in New York city.

She's the founder and executive director of startup pregnant, a media company, documenting the stories of women's leadership across work and family. In addition to the startup pregnant podcast, she is the host of the let's talk podcast about productivity, meaning and living well and amazing and interesting factoid.

Sarah is a 20 time all American swimmer who successfully swam the escape from Alcatraz nine separate times once wearing only a swim cap and goggles to raise $30,000 for charity. Sarah. And I talk about the two types of people. There are people who know what they want, and they're having a hard time going after it.

And there are people who are stuck and don't know what they want. The idea that we all know the answer to what comes next. We just need to get out of our own way, what I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way and how our culture has brainwashed us into pushing when sometimes the next best thing to do is pull back.

I am so excited today to have Sarah K. Peck on the show to talk to us about being human fitting in with our theme of the month. Welcome Sarah.

Sarah: Thanks for having me so good to be here.

Nancy: So we were talking before I hit record about the fact that I have been feeling very stuck lately and for a variety of reasons.

And you had just written a wonderful blog post about that, that I had read before I hopped on. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is totally what we're talking about because I'm feeling stuck and Sarah's going to fix me. (laughter)

Sarah: I want to know what are you feeling stuck on?

Nancy: My business is going well but it's kinda like I have all this time, which is ironic considering what we were also talking about. The fact that Sarah has two kids and time is of the essence for her, but I don't have kids. And so I have some of this extra time and I'm, I want to, I'm wanting to know what I want to fill it up with next.

What's the next project I want to take on. And everything sounds every. I don't know if you have it ever have a mood like this, where nothing sounds good. Like it doesn't sound good to take the day off. It doesn't sound good to binge watch TV. It doesn't sound good to take a nap. It doesn't sound good to work.

Just everything just feels yucky.

Sarah: And what do you want like something to feel good about a direction to go? Can you tell me in your words what it is that you want?

Nancy: I love how we're doing a reverse therapy session here.

Sarah: I have to ask these questions. If you tell me a problem, we're going to go there.

Nancy: Okay Ask the question again. What do want? Is that what you said?

Sarah: What do you want,

Nancy: I want to not have such a loud, inner critic that I call a monger. I want to have to be excited about what I do, which I am, but I want, I'm struggling answering the question.

Sarah: Most people do by the way, struggle.

Nancy: Oh, that's good to know. Yeah.

Sarah: while you're thinking about it, I'll just say, so I do teach a course on getting what you want. And the hardest part of the course is figuring out what you want. I usually divide groups of people into two. There are people who know what they want and they're having a hard time going after it.

And there's people who are stuck in. They're like I don't know what I want. And I think a lot of our lives are figuring out the answers to both of those questions. What do I want next?. How do I go after it? So if you don't know. It sounds to me from knowing you for just a few minutes, that a little bit like hazy, like there's you're not satisfied, feeling a little flat, maybe about where you are like that flat, okay, I've done these things.

What's next is a question you might be asking, where should I go? What should I do? And why? Okay. But what do you think?

Nancy: I agree. I'll answer the question, but I have one other question. Do you think that people know what they really know the answer to the question they just can't get out of their own way to answer it.

Sarah: Yes, I actually do.

Nancy Yeah. Okay. So you think it's. You just have to stop all the crap to get to it.

Sarah: So my next question would be, what have you tried? What are you what are you exploring? And when you have been stuck in the past, what have you done that has worked or not worked? So then I would get into process questions around do you go on long meditative walks in the forest?

Do you interview people on the podcast? Do you talk to friends? What are your tools in your toolkit for getting unstuck? And it's fine. Again, if you have not thought about this before and not done it before, because the best thing, then we get to experiment, then we get to try not to be like, what am I going to try?

Nancy: Because I would say in a practical sense, it's between two things that I want to spread. I want to talk more about high functioning anxiety. That's what I want to do. I either want to do that in the form of writing another book, or I went to do that in the form of starting up a YouTube channel and doing videos.

What I really want is to write another book. Okay. But I have a lot of, that's a waste of time. You shouldn't be doing that. You should be doing something more productive for your business. You shouldn't be just, sitting at home, writing a book.

Sarah: Okay. And how do you feel when you say that out loud?

Nancy: I feel like that's really. Stupid is the wrong word, but that's just no, I really want to write a book. Like I wish I could just get into that position and being like, no, I really want to write a book and hold that and not waiver

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, no apologies necessary.

I, I think from the outside, like what's really cool. And listeners might hear this too, is you, it's very clear what you want. You've got a want and you've got a should, and then you've got all these noises. Cause you said, I, it, people listening. She said I want to write a book and I heard you say it like four times.

I want to write a book. What I really want to do is write, I want to write a book. And the second part of that is what I want is I want to write a book without all the second guessing without all of the, those voices. My interpretation of that, and this is a. A working, living practice,

I haven't achieved, this is what I'm trying to say. But my the best way I could work with this is that when you have those voices, they are actually clues and they tell us a lot about what we want. So like those loud voices, those, I shouldn't do it at it. I should be, working on my…

all of those shoulds are those little tiny gremlins that are actually really clear clues about the things that are important to us, that we care about, that we want that maybe we don't even we don't have a good reason, like a good logical front brain reason for it. So we're scared, right?

We don't know why we want something. We just know that we want it and that our heart craves it and that it could go wildly wrong. And so it's scary. Yeah.

Nancy: The irony, and just to show everyone that even when you are an expert, doesn't mean you can get out of your own way. That's what I write about are these little gremlins characters.

I have them. So it just and I know that's what it is, but it doesn't make it any easier to get out of my own way.

Sarah: A hundred percent. Actually this is legit. Why humans need other humans? Because we are in it in psychological terms, we are reflective selves. Like we learn so much about each other by reflecting off of each other about ourselves, by reflecting off of each other.

And so the things that we teach about the things I teach about the things you teach about and the things that we're learning about doesn't mean we're immune from it. It means we're also human and we're going to go through the same doc gosh, darn thing. It's going to be just as hard for us. And yeah, we're right, right there.

Okay. So what, who I know now I'm asking you all the questions, but what do you want to write about

Nancy: I wrote a book already that is about and hopefully listeners know that is about the inner critic. The, Its call the happier approach.

It's about the monger, who is my voice for the inner critic. And then I have two other characters. One is the voice of false self-compassion, that's called the BFF. And then one is the biggest fan, which is our voice of kindness and wisdom. And I went to, and so when I wrote the book originally, I did not talk about, I really it's really concentrating on the monger, but now I'm realizing that it's that BFF, that voice of false self-compassion that has more of a play than I realized.

And so I'd like to write a book about her and how she sabotages us by make secretly and so that's what I want to write about, oh my

Sarah: God. I love this. Do you have stories already? Do you have do you have an outline? Do you have shapes? What is it, what is the feeling of wanting to write the book look like for you?

Nancy: I don't have an outline. This is what I tend to cause what I tend to do when I'm feeling stuck is the first messages you have nothing new to share. You don't know anything. And I literally can't grasp anything. Like I, like even if I sat down to write an outline, it would be blank. But when you say, how do I, like what comes up for me when I'm like, oh my gosh, this to me, this BFF piece has really been a game changer and figuring out self-doubt and getting out of my own way and recognizing that I sabotaged myself through giving my self false self-compassion and, or judging other people.

To soothe myself and I spend a lot of time in those places, not moving forward, if that makes sense. So I feel there's. When I settle myself there's a lot there.

Sarah: What's this voice, his name? Is it a persona? Like I know it's the voice of false self-compassion, but is she, does she also have she's, I'm like, who is she?

Nancy: I have a visual of her and she's, and I call her the BFF. Cause she's like your high school BFF. Who's whatever. Totally awesome. You're going to be great. And she's such a bitch. I can't believe she said that about you and let's go get, let's go get donuts or let's drink a six pack.

We'll be fine. We just need to, blow off some steam, that voice. And so I based her off of Amy Schumer. Okay. The comedian that's who the, she looks like, cause it's just like fun and up for anything the party. Not the person, Amy Schumer, but the character she plays.

And so it is that idea of whatever I want to do or that idea of whatever you do is perfect. Oh, wisdom to her voice. It's just, whatever you do is amazing. And it can cause people to stay in toxic relationships and overeat and over drink and all those things, it comes up in this book I don't want to write the book because I'm comparing myself to all these other people and my BFF is judging them for what they've written.

And therefore that makes me feel like, oh, I can't write it.,

Sarah: Oh interesting. Because you, so part of it is the I don't know what the drifting towards complacency, like they're always encouraging you to be like no, we won't do it tonight. We'll, we'll drink beer and watch a movie because.

It like everyone watches a movie on Friday night, don't work so hard. You're like, do it tomorrow kind of thing.

Nancy: yeah, you got it.

Sarah: I know that one. Yeah. So I actually I'll tell you a tiny side story. So when I was in my twenties in San Francisco everyone, this is super bowl thing.

People love football. And they were like, everyone would be like, oh, let's watch the super bowl together. And I was like, I can think of a lot of things that are fun to me and sitting, watching television is not one of them for me. And especially like drinking and overeating is not my cup of tea.

So I finally found my path towards watching the super bowl, which is that I would do a half marathon in the morning when they finally wanted to eat a lot and sit down. Because I just run 13 miles. And that was just me.. The voice that comes up in between is that I'm abnormal. I'm weird. Why can't I do things like the way that everyone else does them, why don't like everybody watches this show and they like drink some beers and they like, the advertisements, like why do you feel so fidgety and irritable, and like, why is this not fun for you? And owning that part of yourself that wants to do something else, whether it's like walking through the forest or painting your toenails or whatever it is running 13 miles. I don't do that anymore. My hips are too screwed up, but yeah. Okay. So that's part of it is the, like the complacency, the kind of like insidiousness of oh, take a break.

But then part of it is that she's a bee and she's judging people all the time. So you're afraid of being judged that way.

Nancy: Exactly. Like it's that, it's the cool girl that you want to fit in with. And so you do all these things to appease her and I, and I think, that piece that you said, which I, and that's why I talk to my clients a lot about building self loyalty is a big theme of my work, but owning that part of you that doesn't want to do what everyone says you should do, or the norm quote, unquote, whatever that means is is, that idea of constantly turning my back on who I am and what I want.

That's what I've, that's what I'm doing because in so many ways, but knowing what you're doing and doing it differently are two very different thing.

Sarah: I also think that like that, there's a reason this is all coming up for you now, because if you're going to write about this, you need the material.

And so part of this is like just document for them days, everything that comes up, like every single way the voice comes up and then, oh, there's the book, like it's going to be, it's actually in a weird way going to make writing the book easier because you're going to come up against every single word.

The voice comes in.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, that idea of slowing down and just trusting that it, everything will come as it's ready and not knowing the line. I have always struggled with knowing the line of I need to push through this versus just be patient and it will come is, has always been it's something that I think that is insidious with anxiety in general.

But we are plus the idea of mostly it's, I'm always going to push through that's what Western society teaches us. Just keep pushing. And sometimes the power comes and pulling back.

Sarah: There's so much here because, a friend of mine also is she also has a lot of anxiety. And one of the things that she has said is she's at the end of the day, I don't always know what.

To believe because you don't know which one is actually me because I trained for so long and all these other voices, like the dominant, patriarchal, oppressive of masculine hustle, culture, voice is one. And it's inside of all of us, the pay it's the Puritan work ethic. It's the idea that if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and work harder as an individual, you too can get anything done.

And if you haven't, it's your fault, right? That's that is smashed into us. And then there's the like gendered voices that we all have that, we could talk for hours about the ways that women are trained and cultured and the mean girls and all the different people. And it affects men too, right?

In different ways. There's gendered ways that men are affected, especially when it comes to tapping into and understanding and respecting emotions. And then we're all just left here being like, so whose voice do I believe in which one is actually. Mine,

Nancy: right? Yeah.

That's the hard part. And so for me, a lot of times, which I haven't been doing interestingly as we're talking, I was like, oh, cause for me, it is, if I could just bring in a piece of kindness even to say, oh, it just really sucks that you're struggling with this right now. That's just so hard just to be able to.

In doing that, I remind myself that I'm actually a full human being, as opposed to, I think I get stuck in this thing that I'm a machine and I can push through when I just need to keep going. But the, I, when I can give myself kindness, it's like something flips inside of me to be like, oh yeah, you are a person.

Sarah: You're not a machine. You're not a robot, no matter what's going on Silicon valley aspires to. Exactly. Yeah. There's so much of the noise of the interwebs of all the blogs and all the pseudoscience is people who dole out really bad. About arbitrary. Unreal, perfect worlds. Oh, all you need to do is have a little more willpower.

I'm sorry. Are you living in a pandemic with two small children? Trapped with them in a New York city home? Because I am, I don't think it's about willpower. I'm using my willpower not to punch a wall. (Laughter)

Nancy: Yeah. I wish we had more of that refreshing frank talk. (Laughter)

Sarah: like I did. I spent it, I used all my willpower now.

What do you want me to do? Tell me where's the willpower Beck. Is it free? Does willpower grow on trees? Thank you. Thank you.

Nancy: Yeah, that'd be great. If you could just purchase it out of a vending machine,

Sarah: but that's not how it work. And we're human and I love that you said this we're human and we are in, I think just like very nuanced, very contextual situations that change.

We are in like peculiar habits and histories. Like we have all these old, I don't know, what do they call them in in my yoga trainings coming out, but they call them samskaras, but we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that isn't is a challenging individual.

Interpersonal that collaborative work.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, because those default patterns are strong, man. You use a well-worn path that is hard to unhook.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. It's so hard. So the questions I just asked you for people listening, by the way that we went through I'll tell you like, this is the course in a nutshell, although I have like lots of videos and little rabbit holes that I take you down to, but I ask what do you.

Now, what is it that you want? And if you don't know, how will you figure it out? The good news, if you don't, this is like the punchline. If you don't know what you want, the good news is actually that what you want is to know what yeah.

Nancy: Ah, nicely done.

Sarah: Great congratulationsr. Now our job is to figure out and the next step is how will we, what have you tried?

What have you learned? And if you're like, oh, okay. Or nothing, and I've tried nothing, it's then great. Your next 12 weeks are an experiment. I want you to try one new thing every week and we'll go from there. And then I would layer into that two more questions, which is, who is it for? And why is it so important?

Like what's behind it. What is, what are you hoping to get out of it? Whether your own personal transformation or joy, or just a simply because I want to or because there's someone, who needs to hear this and you're hoping to transform someone else's.

Nancy: Because that's, one of my big messages is you can't waste time.

And how, you're not wasting time is if you can, cause that's what struck me about your article. Yeah. The article you had on your website about being stuck is it was like, we won't know how I don't waste time as if I know what the finished product is going to be.

And I can play it all the way out and be like, oh, that'll be worth it. And you were like, we won't know that you answered that right away. Right away. You said, you won't know. And I was like, oh no. Oh,

Sarah: I know it's so disappointing. Let me just I empathize with this because it's so frustrating for me too, but let me just explain and clarify, like here's where some spirituality might come in.

For those of you that are spiritual or religious, or you believe in a higher power. But also if you're a total science geek like me, it works in all sorts of. Let's say you do have the master plan. And I don't like the word master. Let's say you do have a glorious plan and you know how it's going to play out.

And you're like, yes, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to write the book. And this is how it's going to transform people's lives. What's the point it's boring. If you've already played it out in your head and you already know everything that's going to happen, then your job becomes one of a cognitive machine where you don't get any delight or joy or serendipity or surprise.

And I think that the majority of us actually cannot fathom how many things we can do with the time we have and how much we can grow. Like we are so limited at times in our imagination, the things that we imagine are short-sighted and they're so small compared to all that we can do. And so this is where I know there are phrases.

I used to study Bible school and I don't anymore. But what are the, like what somebody who is spiritual will know, we will be listening to this. Only God knows the plans he has for you. It's like a phrase that I've heard. Other people say you cannot know the plans the universe has for you. You cannot even imagine and fathom the scope of all that you could potentially do.

And so why make a plan to try to stick to it? If you could know, it would be boring..

Nancy: I just got chills when you were saying that. I have to say because the cog in the machine like that is, what's so fascinating about it is I want to, I don't want to be a cog in the machine, obviously. I don't want to be a I don't want to be a robot, but my default pattern is to try to be a robot.

Sarah: You want to know what the certainty you're craving at some, for some reason. Yes.

Nancy: And that's but then when you're like then I would just make you robotic and I'd be like, oh yeah, I don't want to be a robot. Okay. No

Sarah: squash the joy. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Like part in part, like one of the, one of the characters that comes along with joy is frustration and annoyance and all in sadness and gladness and happiness, like all of the different you don't get to pick out the emotions that you want and discard the rest of them.

So if we want a life that has joy, and if we want to experience these things, we also have to experience the other yucky stuff. We have to try it and see, we got to see okay, I'm going to try to write this book. And then, three weeks later you're like, Fricking sucks. Like I don't want to live with whatever it is.

And you're like, okay, now I know I tried it like, but then underneath it, you dig past a few pages. You're like, oh my goodness. I wouldn't have known this tool was here in this book is actually about this,

Nancy: right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was interesting. I was just talking with a client a couple of weeks ago and she was saying how, this is such a simple example, but it's so accurate that she was driving somewhere.

And she was like, I'm going to listen to a podcast because that's what a good person does in their cars. They listen to podcasts, then they expand their mind, yeah. And then she was like, oh, but maybe I think I'm just going to listen to music. And it was just like she said, and I don’t know where I just turned on my music and she's which I never do because I always have to be productive, listening to podcasts.

And she's and I just danced in the car and it was just like this, I got out of my head. It was just this amazing 10 minute commute. And it was all I was doing was listening to music. And I'm like, yes, like that's what you're just talking about is that idea of, let me get out of being a robot and do something that's just fun for the sake of fun.

Yes. And I don't know where it's going to go, but gosh, that's hard.

Sarah: I'm talking about productivity for this mix of productivity. Yes. So like it's never all or nothing. I think being productive. Delicious and driven and efficient, like that can be wonderful. And also the last 300 to 500 years of like obsession with the industrial efficient, like the industrial complex is so overdone right now, there's more to the world than being productive, but we have all ingrained it so deeply in this Western rational, scientific culture.

And here's where I want to be a little bit. Counter-culture you, do you have more men or women listening to your show?

Nancy: I have more women.

Sarah: Okay, good. But this will be for everyone, but actually, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to edit that and take that back because the patriarchy harms everyone.

But it is how do I say this in a way that makes sense. One of the weapons of patriarchy and white supremacy, one of the weapons of power is convincing people to work as fast as they possibly can because it keeps them tired and it keeps them complacent. So if you can't breathe, if you don't have time remaining to have 10 minutes of joy to listen to music, because it's simply gives you pleasure to read a book without checking your freaking phone to do the things that you're allowed to do because you're allowed to be here right now. If you are so busy trying to chase the next thing, it actually takes your power away from you. Somebody else is controlling the power and in the culture we live in today, especially in the world of patriarchy, this harms women more than men, but it does harm everyone.

We're so stuck being busy that we don't. Yes. So this new, what did you say you can't waste time? Yeah. Yes, you can waste as much time as you need to. It's your life.

Nancy: And that's the, you know what I always constantly say to myself is who's saying it's wasting. Yeah. Like where does that?

What's the definition of wasting time versus that's right. Being productive because reading a book for your. Can be productive, right? Depending on your definition. I think

Sarah: if you tune into the feeling like really tap in and be like, why am I doing this right now? Am I doing this for my own desire and pleasure?

Or am I doing this because I should, the woman who got into the car and listened to a podcast, probably on double speed. We're not going to, we're not going to go to our grave being like, and this woman listened to half a million. These are not actually accomplishments separate from. And I think we've unlearned the joy of learning.

If you are listening to things because you are so enamored or you're so curious, or you want to be learning something, or you're just hungry, like there's such a special relationship with knowledge and information and wisdom where you at, where you are. Just crave it and be like, oh my God, but how does that work?

How does that work? Why is this well, where does that come from? I'm curious, like that kind of joy of learning is really beautiful and sometimes it leads you down a rabbit hole where you're like, okay, I'm going to learn corporate law and accounting and one variable statistics because I'm going to do it and it's not going to be that fun.

And you can shoot on yourself and be like, I'm just going to get through this. And then later on, you'll be able to dance with all of that because now the design of corporations is an art form to you because you've mastered the technique, right? Learning piano skills, maybe there's time when doing the repetitions is not that exciting to you, but you are striving towards a place of joy.

Yeah. Nobody thinks that having bleeding blisters from running the guitar chords is like a radical act of fun, but being able to play guitar for the rest of your life at a campfire whenever you want. It's pretty cool. Yeah. I don’t know. We just went, I just went down a big rabbit hole, (Laughter)

Nancy: (Laughter). No, I was just, like, oh yeah, I'm running this interview until I need to

wait a minute. Who's asking who ?!?!,

Sarah: I tripped you up because in the beginning I asked you all these questions. I was like let's get right into this. Yeah, no,

Nancy: I appreciate it. So one of the blogs that, and this is similar to what you were just talking about. One of the blogs you wrote about was because I want to, or because I don't want to are perfectly acceptable answers.

Sarah: Yeah. Have you ever lived with a three-year-old?

I actually think, I don't need to spend more time with children, regardless of whether or not you like want to have them on your own. Which, five months into a pandemic is a dubious decision. I'm kidding children if you listened to this, but regardless of whether or not you are the what's the right word owners, that's not the right.

What is that guardians, there we go as like we're parents, but also whether or not you have them yourself. I think being around children is so lovely because it teaches us so much about how to see the world and how to play. And like sometimes you see what they do and you're like, I need to be a little bit more like you, right?

The three-year-old that's no, I don't want to wear shoes today. Or like I'm wearing a purple shoe and a pink shoe and a glitter bra. And you're like great. Like you do you that can be enough of a reason. So often we're searching for external validation. And I think this is again where we give our power away.

We're looking for other people to validate choices that we already know we want to make. And over time that actually arose. Our relationship with our own as Martha Beck would say our essential self. So when I ask you something like, what do you want? If you aren't practicing, cultivating a relationship with that voice inside you that says, this seems fun.

Ooh, I want that. Let's try this. And the essential self, not the what's the word? The, for me, it's the one that eats, half a cup of fish, food, ice cream at night. It's I'm tired of just one fish food is the type of ice cream, chocolate ice cream for those listening. It's the deepest knowing the deepest desire that hunger inside of you, that's like between the bottom of your belly and all the way down to your pelvic floor.

There's a sensation it's different for different people. There's like a tingling sensation. I'm not talking about the sexual one. And it tells you like a spark. Like I want this I, and I don't know why. But I just do I have a hunger for this. I have a craving for this, and I want to, I think so many people have lost touch with that sense sensibility and it's I don't know.

It might be the most important voice that we have that we can cultivate listening to.

Nancy: Ah, yeah. I totally agree. Yeah, I saw it in myself. Yeah. And I see it in my clients. The idea of I'm feeling when it comes to feelings, I'm feeling sad. I shouldn't feel sad.

I should be grateful. There's so many things to be, or I'm feeling really frustrated with my kids right now. Why shouldn't be a good mom would not feel frustrated. And and a lot of times I'll be like, you're feeling sad, period. That's what you're feeling. It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or a bad thing, or why or what.

Is what it is. And when I was finally able to say that to myself, that's when things started shifting, because I could just be like, this is what it is.

Sarah: I have so much I could talk about here with feelings, because so two things that you said that really stand out to me, like first, when we use that should word, I shouldn't be feeling sad.

We're invalidating our own experience. We're completely denying ourselves the reality of actually you are feeling this thing. I think we're so scared of feeling those things because we haven't been given a roadmap, like how should we express and feel feelings. Most people think they're going to stick around forever.

The good news is an emotion only lasts for 90 seconds. Usually.

Nancy: that's my favorite statistic I love that.

Sarah: And for me a lot of times, they have these layers. If anyone has watched Shrek, you can be like, why can't you be like cake, cake has layers. We have layers to be like cake. So feelings of worth of layers and the ones on the top aren't necessarily all there is. And we can feel lots of different things. At the same time. We can be devastated and sad that someone has passed away and relieved that we no longer have to care for them because it was so much work.

Like you're allowed to feel both of those things at the same time. You can feel like bittersweet and you can feel angry. You can feel, I have two small children and they, I like bounce around from, oh my God, I love you so much. I want to eat you, which is such a weird feeling, but I have, I like want to eat them, which I don't understand.

But also like expletive face, like feeling like I need to buy a punching bag so I can, punch a bag. Please add an agenda. There was no harming of children involved right before or after, like none of this actually happened. But stealing is in there and You can feel lots of things at once and there are layers to them.

So sometimes for me, I feel super, super angry. Anger comes up first and if I start to express it, if I allow myself to express it, which is usually, which is hard for me because angry women, like people are not supposed to be angry. Men have more permission to be angry, punch a pillow or a scream. I get a pillow, I scream into it.

I got on my Peloton bike and I like turn the dial up as hard as it can go. After I express the anger. Usually what comes next is. I'm actually really sad and that sadness comes out and I don't know why I'm crying, but I'm crying on the bike and there's some music playing and it's usually like a sappy inspirational song, Rocky theme, I start crying.

And then I there's like a clue and I realized. Something's really hard and I'm sad. And then I'm scared is usually the next and I'm scared. I'm nervous. I am so scared about being good enough parent. I'm scared that my job won't work, I'm four years into an entrepreneurship path and we're now profitable, which is great, but it's gotta make more money.

How am I going to make that happen? All of these things COVID is driving me bonkers and I don't like that. It's is really itching my skin (laughter)

Nancy: wearing on your soul, (Laughter)

Sarah: yes! Wearing on my soul That's right. So yeah, there's like feelings, capital F we don't have a good map for how to have feelings collectively.

We're all like, pre-adolescent at best in our training for how to have feelings. Like no one taught us. This is what it looks like in your body. This is where it lives. These are the sensations, like bubbles in your stomach, feel like this. And like loose bowels might correlate to that. You get the nervous shits.

Sorry. I don't know if you're swearing.. What does that mean? Like when does that come up? We don't. We're not taught to see these as patterns and start to map them out and analyze them and be like, oh, you know what? I always get these nervous flutters. And it's always related to things that are really important to me.

And then I'm excited about maybe this is excitement and fear, and then how do I feel next? And how do I feel afterwards? And it's oh, you know what, if this is my pattern, this is my loop. It's an sorry for the confessional, but not sorry. It's like nervous shits. Then I get excited. Then I get super stinky armpits.

And I need to wear black t-shirts because I sweat through on stage, but then I feel powerful and I feel alive and I feel connected. And I feel proud of myself and I will take that Sonata every time. But yeah, I will take those four emotions at the end. If it means I've got to take them with some nervous shits and some sweaty armpits.

I'll do it.

Nancy: But it's noticing the mean, I think too back to the, not to keep bringing it back to being human, but it, because if I treat myself like a robot, I'm not going to see the patterns. If I treat myself as a human being, I can start recognizing, oh, I do this. And then I do this. And then I do this.

And it's more of a open exploratory than a rigid control all the time.

Sarah: And we get so shortsighted about fixing that specific oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way. This means that we put meaning on top of that specific feeling. And then we also. Sticks that feeling. And I actually, especially for people who deal with anxiety, I think that trying to fix a feeling sometimes causes more anxiety.

Nancy: Oh, absolutely. I think much of anxiety period is not dealing with feelings.

Sarah: That's right. That's right. And so that some things my, years of cognitive behavioral therapy have taught me or to identify the sematic, the bodily experience. So start to become a scientist and just write down everything that's happening in your anxiety.

Tingling on skin hair on end Twitch in my right eye, like tapping on my foot, like wherever it is in your body, I start to. Become really analytical about it and write it and then take notes at predictable times over the next couple of days, because you start to see these really cool story arcs that happen and how things relate to each other.

And then you can evaluate instead of clamping down and shitting on yourself, like this experience was bad. Adding that judgment on top of the observation, if we can refrain from that judgment, say, okay, Here's what I observe. Here's the story now? How do I feel about this as a holistic thing? Oh, okay. You know what?

I do want some of this to go away. Now I can go talk to someone or learn about merges and who else has dealt with it, but there's so much immediate collapsing. I feel so nervous and I get a stutter and I trip over myself and I want to vomit and all of that's bad. And therefore I should crawl into a hole and die and it's okay, slow down you.

This is myself talking. I'm not telling you what to do. They live in my head too.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. But then what I, then what we do is we'll be like, oh, I'm back to productivity. I just read this article that says, I have to get up at 5:00 AM. And I got to do these. These are what success. These are the five things successful people do before 5:00 AM or whatever.

Yes. Yes. Instead of recognizing, do I want to get up at 5:00 AM? Is that when my body works best? Is that when I have the time to do stuff or is it better for me to stay up late? That's right. And paying attention to what works for me, not just some random expert that I found an article on Facebook about

Sarah: who's be BSing their way through, in any ways, like whether or not they actually know what they're doing.

They're just posturing. Most of the time

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. Flipping subjects completely. Because we were just talking about social media. I recently stepped away from social media specifically Facebook and Instagram and shut everything down for a variety of reasons, some of it political with much of it, political with a Zuckerberg, but also just because of anxiety, it just was not serving me at all. And I'm like, I help you with anxiety. I can't be telling people to go on social media. Cause I know it's not good for anxiety. And I thought that you took a break or taking a break.

And so everyone keeps asking me, how's it going? What's happening, blah, blah, blah. So I wanted to ask you those same questions.

Sarah: I know it's I have a hard time with all or nothings. But I do try to dial it way back. I actually wrote a piece for Harvard business review about taking a social media sabbatical.

Cause they try to take one every summer for a month. I take a break. And then, in, in a regular pattern, I might take a day off every weekend. Try to leave my phone on a room for a day just to reset my body because news the media, social media phones and devices are. Very much designed to take advantage of our psychological system and our nervous system.

And there's documented evidence that, and I'm sure you've shared this with your folks as well, but there's documented evidence that like, when we sit at a computer, we don't breathe and not breathing deeply. We do breathe, but we take these shallow little sips of breath and then we hold our breath and that alone can cause anxiety.

You might not have a problem other than a computer problem. Now, please, I'm not going to diagnose you are validated. You absolutely may have a problem or an Whatever we call them diagnoses, but they can be exacerbated by not breathing. And one of the things, so in paying attention to all these patterns in my own life, some of the patterns that have come up for me include if I do 30 minutes of deep belly breathing and 30 minutes of exercise where my heart rate gets over one 40, I can keep the majority of my anxiety at bay in that I'll have a healthy, as much as I can understand.

I'm using air quotes, like normal amount of anxiety in any given day. Like I'll still fret. I'll still be stressed. I'll still be, but it doesn't seem to get so intense as to feel really bad or militating. 30 minutes of exercise, heart rate over one 40 and 30 minutes of deep belly breathing, which means I have to not be on a computer or a device.

Yeah. Walking through the forest really helps, like in an ideal world, the things that help are also talking to a friend for an hour going for a walk outside without a device, listening to music, like all of these become tools in my toolkit.

Nancy: Because you have been observing yourself

Sarah: because I've been observing myself and I've worked with a therapist now for 10 or 12 years, multiple therapists.

And so they have also been observing me and say, oh, Sarah, have you exercise lately? Screw you exactly. I know I should get on the bike. My husband will be like, Hey, you want a bike today? I'll be like, I don't bike today. Sorry about that. I'm really sorry.

Nancy: It is just like this, the last thing I want to do, even though I know it's good for me, I know I'll feel better.

Sarah: That's great. I don't need to go on a walk. There's not a bad thing,

but back to social media. So I take some breaks and I know these things about myself and I pay attention to like, how does it make me feel? And a really simple experiment you can do is okay, I'm going to get on it. How do I feel? What is the feeling that's causing me? Do I feel lonely?

Do I feel sad? Do I feel anxious? What's the instigating feeling. Okay. How long did I stay? Just glance at your clock? It's 1 54. Okay. Now you're stopping. What time is it? Two 15. You spent 20 minutes. How do you feel now? And a lot of times, like I get sucked in and I just keep scrolling and there is no end.

And then I'm ending up in that place where I'm like looking at someone else's life. Like I'm like, how did I find this high school friend from 27 years ago? Now I've learned that they've had a baby and I'm wondering what their baby name is, but I don't. And I looked up they're busy. I don't even know why I got here.

So that's what I would call like the not good for me. Social media use and. And I just pay attention up that one doesn't make me feel good, but the good news is social media and phones and devices generally are beneficial to us when we engage in one-on-one or small group activity. And so that's the part I miss the most when I take a break, is that my groups, like the people that I talk to on a regular basis to people that I message, like some of us use those platforms for specific one-on-one communication and one-on-one connection with other people is beneficial.

That's actually the best connection we can have. So for me, if I'd take a break. It needs to be a short amount of time. So I don't lose a lot of social connection or I need to proactively set up like, all right, I'm going to reach out to these 20 friends and send a calendar, or I'm going to set up 20 coffee dates with people and send a calendar invitation and talk to someone every day for an hour, because I need something to replace that habit.

I cannot willpower my way through. Just don't do it.

Nancy: right, yeah. Yeah, because that's something I really have is I've been texting people more than I would have commented. Like I would have just commented on their post on Facebook and now I'm like, oh, I'm going to really reach out to them.

But I, as you were talking, I was like, one of the things I use social media for is I will go on there to figure out what do I want? Oh, interesting. I comparing myself to other people and seeing what they're doing and getting ideas. This is what I'm telling myself, but really it, if I pay attention to how I feel, I just feel crappier.

Like it isn't helping inspire me because I'm looking outside of myself for an answer that's inside of myself. So that's partly why this is happening to me right now, this whole, what do I want? Cause I can't do my normal. Let's just go online and figure it out. Even though that doesn't work anyway. You know what I mean?

Sarah: That's right. That's right. It's so easy to see other people and they get so distracted because we think that we should want what they want. But we have to remember that what they see, what they're showing us is a fabrication, right? Yeah. It's not their real life. It's PR it's just, it's the, yeah. The happy, positive, curated, or the outreach version.

Like it's just, it's not it's most people post two things on social media, things that inspire outrage or things that are like super happy milestones and rituals,

Nancy: right? Yeah. Yeah.,

Sarah: They don't say hey I had a fight with my husband today and then I worked it out

Or did you know that mashed banana really is hard to get out of the car.

Like these riveting moments in our lives of the day to day

Nancy: . Yeah. But what's, yeah, what's been interesting is since I posted it in this forum that I'm on for small businesses and now I've become like, everyone's like, how's it going? What's happening? All this I'm going to do it too.

And I'm like, I'm not causing a social movement here. This is just something I've decided to do for me, because I do think that each person's relationship with social media is different and can make that decision themselves. But just because I say, oh, I'm taking a stand. It's been interesting to watch people be like, oh, I should take a stand too.

But I'm like, you don't need to take a stance.

Sarah: Maybe you gave them permission. They're like, oh, you know what? I actually want to try.

Nancy: Yes, totally. I hope that's the case. Cause I don't want it to be like, oh, I should do this. Cause I have a lot of, I've been thinking about it for a long time. So I have a lot of detailed arguments as to why for me, this is a good choice and I've shared this with people and they're like, oh, that's so well thought out.

I should totally agree with you, but it's your life, like you need to decide social media too. But that is for me just to, as a reminder to myself and to everyone else that list that, that conviction I had on that decision. And even when someone says like, when you're like, oh, I need it. I like it for one-on-one communication in small groups.

So I can only do it a short amount of time and I'm not an all or nothing person. If I wasn't really clear on my. Stance or how it affects me that would've wavered me. Then I would have been like, oh, maybe I need one communication too. Or I'm being overly dramatic with the all or nothing thing. So I need to stop doing that.

Like it would have caused my own guy. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've done my own dive into this particular subject. I feel solid in it. And so I don't get, I'm not wavering with every person doubting me.

Sarah: Okay. So let me get geeky here with some folks. And I'll send you the Harvard business review article.

So what I wrote was I actually did four different experiments with social media sabbaticals, and I did four different, I designed a four different ways of doing it. One of them, I blocked it from nine to four, and I only did an hour in the weekday afternoons for four to 5:00 PM. One of the, like another week.

Or another month, they only did Friday afternoons. Like I set up specific different types because I wanted to try it and see. And so my recommendation would be for people, if you're in that place, this is actually right back to where we started. This conversation is what do you want? If you don't know, then we're going to try it and see, we're going to try something. So you have arrived at a place where you're very clear about what you want, because you've done the research. You've thought about it. You've looked at your own self, you've done the inquiry. You've been examining and analyzing. You're like, okay, this is the best path. But for other people who, and they're probably happening right now, they're looking at how thoughtful and meticulous your research is.

And they're like, oh, I want to try that. Now when you try it, people listening, if you think if you try it and then you get five days in and you're like, oh, darn it. I really need to get on Facebook because I need to contact so-and-so because this is the only place I know how to find her.

That's not a failure. That is a data point where you're like, oh, fascinating. This is what I use this tool for. Or if every night at 6:00 PM, you're like, you just need a beer and a scroll. That's a data point. You're learning about yourself. Okay. This is the time of day when I really love scrolling for 45 minutes.

What if I just allowed that? What if I said, you know what? I'm going to go off social media like this, but every night at six, I get 45 minutes and ask yourself that question in the beginning. Do, how do I feel before, during, and after now, if you feel like a POS at the piece of poo, if you feel awful at the end of it, then that's another data point.

You're like, oh, every day I do the scroll for 45 and I feel awful. Huh? What could I do instead, maybe next week, what I'll try is I'm going to try asking friends to do phone calls at 6:00 PM. That's what I've been trying instead set something up where I'm going to talk to someone for an hour and then I'm going to measure again, how do I feel?

I'm such a scientist, by the way, I'm going to better again, how I feel at the end. So you don't have to get it right? Nobody has a map for your life, right? And you, if you don't know. Just do an experiment, try it and see, play around and be like, you know what? I'm going to try this week. I'm going to try that next week.

And I'm going to learn as part of the process. I

Nancy: love that. Yeah. And that applies across the board. Yeah. Not just social media, I'm saying like that you just walked us exactly through how to do an experiment, to figure out what I will tell you.

Sarah: I have a book called your life as an experiment that I've written 40,000 words of, and haven't shipped

like one of my life philosophies is try it and see, I guess I'm a little, I get a little concerned now it's my turn to be in the seat. But I'm a little afraid that I'm telling people your life is an experiment and that they're going to be like, screw you. It is not you don't know what I've lived through.

Like what a white girl thing to say. And so I'm just like sitting on it and being like, is this really. Is this essential messaging and I don't know what to call it. I might call it, try it and see, but I really do believe as you can tell people listening, do you wanna email me what you heard from this?

Please find me on my website and tell me what you think. But I want to find a way to share this message that we don't need to know the answers. And you can treat your life a little more like an experiment,

Sarah: But it is, I think for so much of our lives where we get caught in the weeds, it's just because we've got to get more done.

Nancy: But I think, I totally hear your, why you have your doubts and why you're debating it. And, I think that is across the board is something in, in a variety of ways that we need to know that because we have, even in our white supremacy systems, everything is so rigid.

And to be able to see it as an I can get out of this shackle for lack of a better word. And be freer more free. Yeah. If I view my life as an experiment and not something that's right or wrong in everything I do that's right. And everything I say I have more freedom to make mistakes and therefore make more changes in the world.

Hopefully bettering other people's lives as well with, through social justice or, just thinking even I know. Been working with DEI, doing my own work on racism and this experiment piece of it has been the key to that's right. Because if I'm not experimenting and sharing my views around stuff, I'm not making the changes.

That's right.

Sarah: And it's and, start small, come up with a hypothesis do your best to do the research and advance where you can, we're not just going to walk out there and be like, whoa, like here are all my thoughts on racism on the next brown or black or other first, because that's not effective and useful and it can be harmful, but we are going to do a lot of learning.

We being me. And let me just speak about me, do a lot of learning and say, Hey, how can I change this? What could I try? What can I try next? What can I try next? Yeah,

Nancy: I think it's a much needed resource.

Sarah: Thanks. Let me go put it together while they're sleeping in my spare time. During that time I'm not punching a wall. Exactly.

Nancy: Oh, Sarah, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for your time and your being willing to flip the interview, so to speak. And I really appreciate that and I feel so much better. Like I have to say this morning was rough for me. And after this conversation, I feel so much lighter and yeah, it's in there.

Sarah: Oh, I love hearing that. I They don't have the bandwidth to do coaching anymore. I used to do it unofficially because I just get so curious about people and I ask them questions. And so I put everything I knew into this course, it's called get what you want. And it's what we did.

This is this, so if you need a video of me, I'm not going to, if there's no flagellation, there's no I'm not going to whip you into shape. I'm going to ask you kind questions. I'm gonna ask you thoughtful questions. And people have told me that it's oh, I'm allowed to listen to myself. Whoa.

Nancy: That's awesome. I'll give you the link. So tell people where they can find you and we'll put all this stuff in the show notes, but

Sarah: just, yeah. So two places Sarah K peck.com is my personal website. I go by my middle initial because Sarah peck.com wasn't available. And I'm sometimes on Twitter.

I'm more often on Instagram at Sarah Kay. And then I have a company that I run a called startup pregnant. We are changing the name to start up parent later this fall. And it's for working parents and entrepreneurs and people running businesses that are also navigating pregnancy and parenthood and career all at the same time.

So that right now you can find us everywhere is at Serta pregnant. And then we're going to move over to startup parent.com. And we're in the process of getting all those new social handles. But if you type in, start up P probably by no go, I'll probably

Nancy: Beause I know a lot of people are, struggling before, but COVID is, as we were talking about before we hit record and said a whole new level of being a parent and running a business and working and all that stuff.

Sarah: It's so hard for so many people right now. Yeah.

Nancy: But so had their get some resources, get some support from Sarah, check out the, get what you want page.

Sarah: Yeah. www.sarahkpeck.com go to courses and you can find I've got, oh, too many. No, I'm not going to drag myself like that. I've got planned lots of courses. And one of them is called get what you want. And I'll send you the direct link to, for your peoples.

Nancy: Awesome. Awesome. Okay, great.

Thank you, Sarah. Thanks. I admit when I started this interview, I was not expecting the tables to be turned and Sarah to coach me, as we were recording, my monger was screen coming at me. What are you doing? This is your show. You're the expert. And yet I wasn't listening to that voice because underneath it was my biggest fan saying, let's go with this, who knows this might be helpful.

And isn't that what we're doing here. It isn't all about. And when I relaxed into it, I gained a lot and I hope you did too. Being human. It's messy because there's no right way. I know when I start looking for an absolute right way, I need to pull back and loosen the reins a bit. I'm writing a new book, very early stages, but I will be exploring the BFF character.

She doesn't get as much attention as the monger, but she is just as damaging.

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Episode 146: Embracing a Life of Imperfection and Acceptance

In today’s episode, I’m talking about how to deal with our Monger who is constantly pushing us towards the impossible, and ways to embrace our humanness.

Does this sound like you? 

Your to-do list is a mile long—yet, logically, there’s no way you could complete it; you drive yourself so hard, pushing, hustling, head down working toward a goal—and beat yourself up when you don’t reach it. 

You might even sacrifice sleep and your own well-being in pursuit of this goal. 

If so, then your Monger might be running the show and holding you to an impossible superhuman standard. 

Your Monger convinces you that you have to do these things. There is no choice. You push yourself day in and day out in pursuit of a goal or fantasy version of what your life is “supposed to be”—because if you don’t attain the life your Monger is pushing you towards, then you just don’t have what it takes to be happy. 

If you gave yourself permission to pause and reflect on how your Monger holds you to these impossible standards, you might ask yourself: who set the goal I’m hustling so hard for? And if it is actually my goal, is that goal still serving me or even something I want to be pursuing? 

When we have spent our whole lives with the belief that we can be superhuman if we only hustle harder, how do we embrace a life of imperfection and acceptance?

In this week’s episode, I’m talking about how to deal with our Monger who is constantly pushing us towards the impossible and ways to embrace our humanness. 

And, if you missed last week’s episode, we kicked off this month’s conversation with Tara McMullin who shared her experiences with Being More Human in her business. Go check it out. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our Monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings

• 3 ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman

• Why self-loyalty is the ultimate act of being human

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Your monger hold you to an impossible standard. I'm continually amazed by my own monger's ability to encourage me to go beyond the bounds of time and space. Your to-do list is a mile long and logically, there is no way you could come up. And yet your monitor convinces you, that you have to, you don't have a choice.

And even though you can't bend time and magically create 27 hours in a day, you still beat yourself up for failing to finish. You drive yourself so hard, pushing, hustling, and head down, working toward a goal, sacrificing sleep and ignoring your own personal discomfort in the form of physical pains and mental anchors.

And we do it all in the pursuit of some goal or fantasy version of what our life is supposed to be. We have built our whole lives around these delusions, the idea that we are superhuman and that we need to keep going and we can't change course, you're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

If you gave yourself permission to pause and reflect on how your monger holds you to these impossible standards, you might ask yourself who set the goal I'm hustling so hard for? And if it is actually my goal is that goal still serving me or even something I want to be pursuing.

Our monger convinces us that looking around and asking questions is dangerous and scary. So she keeps serving as a task master for a goal. We might not even want to be pursuing any. And in the end, we start to believe that if we can't be the superhuman version of ourselves, that our monger has tasked us with becoming, we just don't have what it takes to be happy.

This is what I want to talk about. The simple act of being human. I want to explore the complexities and importance of just being human. Especially for those of us who swallow the lie that we have to be superhuman. Last week, we kicked off the conversation with Tara McAllen, sharing her experiences with being more human in her business.

And next week we'll be hearing from Sarah Kathleen Peck, who talks about bringing your humanness into your next project and helping you get out of your own way and try something. She even coached me through my own stuckness. In this episode, I want to talk about how our monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings.

Now, the benefits of being super human have been sold to us our whole lives in comic books, in movies, in fantasy novels, maybe you've dreamt of reading minds, having the power of flight or just being really smart, like Sherlock Holmes. So what's so great about being human. Here are three ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman reason.

Number one, being loyal to yourself rather than beating yourself up for feeling unmotivated. You can say wow. Feeling unmotivated is so freaking hard, especially when I have so much to do. I'm going to be gentle on myself today. What is one small thing I can start right now? And then I'm going to check in again, later.

Reason. Number two, making mistakes means trying something new and risking failure, rather than just sitting there and fear risking raising your hand in the zoom meeting to share an idea and rather than getting lost in the fact that your idea didn't get picked, noticing that your idea inspired another idea that was more on target.

Had you not risked that wouldn't have happened. Reason. Number three, being kind about your limitations, recognizing that as much as you want to be superhuman and as good as that feels, initially, it leaves you feeling tired, depleted, and anxious, knowing that you are not a good worker after three weeks.

You can do it, but pushing yourself to achieve a bunch at that point, it just isn't going to work in essence, being human is at the heart of being happier and being more peaceful. When we have spent our whole lives with the belief that we could be superhuman, if only we hustle harder, how do we embrace a life of imperfection and acceptance, especially when our mongers and BFS can actively sabotage our efforts.

Let's start with trust. Or a lack thereof. Many of my clients are slow to trust themselves, slow to trust other people, slow to trust our humanness. We trust our rules, our rigidities our schedule, our to do list our ways of doing things because those rules rigidities and ways of doing things, they keep us feeling super human.

We have learned over time that if we keep our head down and do the next thing on the list, we will feel all power. And in the past that has worked. But what if those rules rigidities and ways of doing things they're just not working anymore. What if these rigidities, aren't making us superhuman, but making us feel like crap.

What if you're tired of trying to bend to the time-space continuum? What if you're tired of being physically exhausted and stressed out, constantly working towards a nameless goal? What if you want to feel good about your. And not like you're constantly failing, no matter how hard you work, what if you want to do it differently?

And we all scream. Yes. And then we go to take action to look up, to listen to our biggest fan and design a life of acceptance and imperfection. And in swoops, our mongers saying no. You have to keep pushing. You have to keep hustling. Here's the thing with these superhuman habits, they are well-worn, they are comfortable.

They are our defaults like water running over a rock. It will always find the well-worn path. Change is hard, not just because of our default paths. Those can change one small conscious step at a time, what gets in our way more, our inability to be human, to trust that there is a different way to be wrong.

To not have the right way to not know the answer to question, to be curious and sit in the unknown that is downright terrifying for many of us, with the belief that we are superhuman. This is why we take on more than we physically can. We work mindlessly towards a task. We might not even care about. We treat ourselves as superhuman.

It's also why we know a lot about how to change. We just don't make any of the changes because being superhuman is freaking exhilarate. Especially if we only look at the praise and accolades and avoid our mental and emotional health, it is ironic. We crave less hustling, less pushing. We read and learn as much as we can about accepting ourselves and embracing our imperfections.

And then our Monger steps in to say, you'll never be able to do those things, or who do you think you are or whatever her mean, belittling go for the juggler commentary. Is that right? She convinces us that doing more accomplishing more and staying far away from those feelings that will be best. And our BFF supports her talk about the BFF as much as the monger, but she is that voice of false self-compassion.

So whenever our monger gets too loud, she jumps in to say, you're fine. No need to change. You're doing great. Or we already know this stuff. Change your attitude. Love. Yes. And be kind, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Our BFF lets us off the hook. This is her misguided attempt to protect us. She is that petulant teenager, attempting to protect us by telling us we can stop listening to everyone.

And we're fine. In fact, notice how the BFF Petula child's voice shows up. As you're listening to this very podcast, my BFF voice would probably roll her eyes and tell me to stop listening. All this already, she would whisper you might know this already, but are you implementing it in your daily life?

Because after our BFF tells us, we're awesome and amazing, and we don't need to change anything. We then returned to business as usual and the cycle repeats. So to summarize, we're tired of living with so much rigidity. We attempt to make a change. Our monger belittles us for not hustling and wasting time.

Despite our monger, we make some feeble attempt at being kind to ourselves and then our BFF steps in to tell us we're fine. And we don't need to change rinse and repeat. We went to live in a space where we were open to being human, where kindness and compassion are at the top. We're drawn to that way of thinking and yet practicing and with ourselves on a daily basis is hard and difficult.

And not a default. We have learned from our monger and BFF that in order to feel superhuman best to keep a tight control on any of that messy love stuff. It's way too inconsistent. And. And yet we are also the first to tell our loved ones and friends, all that we've learned by reading psychology, we will advise them that they should set a boundary, speak in need or be kind to themselves.

We really believe this stuff. And yet it's there's a giant hard boundary in our heads saying, Nope, that works for everyone else. But for you, you have high expectations. You need to be superhuman. You are different, but I'm here to tell you. You can't bend the time-space continuum. You can't be all things to all people.

You can't do everything on your to-do list. You can't keep plugging along. Single-mindedly towards a goal you might not even want anymore. It will wear on you physically, mentally, and emotionally, because here's the fact you are a human being. Let's start embracing that first. We have to honor this disconnect.

We have to notice the difference between what we know and what we live. I know that being kind is key. I know that giving myself a regular breaks, honoring my body, treating myself as a human being rather than a human doing are all key to my inner peace and happiness. This is why I love the idea of selfless.

Self loyalty is the ultimate act of being human. It's not turning our back on ourselves. It's being willing to dive into all that messiness and say, wow, look, what's here. Instead of yuck, look, what's here. We know how to be loyal to family and friends. We accept their flaws. In fact, we will bend ourselves like Gumby to make up for their flaws, but for ourselves, hell.

Being human is something we strive to overcome. Maybe that's why we struggle so much stepping into the unknown of being kind, honoring ourselves and practicing self loyalty are messy and imperfect. And the one thing we hate is messy and imperfect. While I was researching the idea of being human. I came across this quote by Edith Weider and American scientists.

Exploring is an innate part of being human. We're all explorers when we're born. Unfortunately it seems to get drummed out of many of us as we get older, but it's there, I think in all of us and for me, that moment of discovery is just so thrilling on any level that I think anybody that's experienced, it is pretty quickly addicted to it.

I don't have all the answers, but I do know that being an Explorer of your heart and soul is an excellent place to start and can be exhilarated. Rather than believing the lie of our monger, that we are flawed human beings who need to be whipped into shape. What if we looked at our internal world as something fun to explore a messy, abstract painting that we can look at with kindness and empathy, rather than a painting we need to redo.

So it looks perfect as we continue to explore being human this month, challenge yourself to embrace imperfection and being kind to yourself. No matter. What notice your three voices notice when your monger chimes in to say how you're broken and then how your BFF chimes in to say no, you're fine.

When you see that dynamic challenge yourself to bring in your biggest fan, that kind voice who says, okay, people let's settle down. What do you need right now? Sweepy pause for the answer and then honor it. That is the key. Honoring what comes up, being loyal to your heart's request. Maybe it is to keep hustling.

Maybe it's to get a drink of water, maybe it's to take a nap, learning to listen and honor what comes up is messy. You will do it wrong. And yet every time I finally put down the superhuman shield and embrace being human, even just a little tiny bit, life gets easy. Which is the exact opposite of what I think is going to happen this week.

Let's embrace being human one tiny activity at a time.

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Episode 145: How Embracing Your Humanness Can Lead to More Success

In today’s episode, I am talking with Tara McMullin, podcaster, small business community leader, and speaker about how bringing her humanness into her life has made some huge shifts with her business, relationships, and mental health.

Being human is messy and imperfect—and, we’re bound to make mistakes. 

It’s part of the deal.

We’re not going to get everything right, every time. 

But we learn as we go. 

That’s what being human is all about. 

For some, being human—the messiness of it—is totally anxiety-provoking. It makes things feel harder to do and accomplish. But what if embracing your humanness could actually result in more ease and more success… with a whole lot less anxiety to boot? Is it possible?

Not only is it possible, but it is also achievable through tiny, small changes we can make to our everyday lives. And all this month, I’m going to go deep into how to embrace our humanness and discuss what it means to be human.  

Today, I’m kicking off the Being Human theme with one of my business mentors, Tara McMullin. 

We talk about how for Tara bringing her humanness into her life has made some huge shifts with her business, relationships, and mental health.

Tara is a podcaster, small business community leader, and speaker. She’s been helping small business owners find what works for them for over a decade. Tara’s goal is to push past the hype so she can better facilitate candid conversations about doing business in the New Economy.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How Tara’s quest to be more human has enhanced and enriched her life

• How hearing about High Functioning Anxiety gave Tara some real ah-ha’s

• The relationship between depression and HFA

• Tara’s morning ritual that helps her with her HFA

Resources mentioned:

• explorewhatworks.com

• The What Works Podcast

• Follow Tara on Instagram

• Follow Tara on Twitter

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Transcript:

Tara: But within that, I also had to be able to own that. I don't always get it right. And that sometimes there's more to learn. I can be of more value to people. I can create more connections to people when I share the stuff I don't get. Or when I share the questions that I'm wrestling with, or when I share, when something feels really hard and I had to recognize the credibility can come from that as well.

Nancy: Being human is just something we naturally are. We can do it without thinking planning or stressing. And yet it is something we fight against with everything we have. We don't want to be human because being human means being messy, being human means imperfection and being human. It means making mistakes.

But what if I told you and embracing your humanness can mean more? And more success with a whole lot less anxiety today. I'm talking with Tara McMullin about how her quest to be more human has enhanced and enriched her life. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. I'm kicking off this month's theme, being human with one of my business mentors, Tara McMillan. I can't tell you how excited I am for you to hear this interview. Tara is raw and real and brings all her humanness with all of its messy imperfections. Kara is a podcaster, small business community leader.

And. She's been helping small business owners find what works for them for over a decade. Her goal is to push past the hype so you can better facilitate candid conversations about doing business in the new economy. It's rare. You're here someone so openly discussed and embrace the ongoingness of their job.

We're used to hearing the typical linear story. I struggled. I changed. I persevered. What I love about this interview is Tara's ability to share the realness of the struggle. It isn't linear, it's circular. And at times frustrating Tara's podcast is called what works. And in this conversation, she shows how she embodies that concept.

When it comes to what's working with her high functioning anxiety and her ongoing journey of being. Tara. And I talk about how hearing about high functioning anxiety gave her some real ahas, depression, and high functioning anxiety and how they can work together. How her morning ritual helps her high functioning anxiety and how bringing her humanness into her life has made some real shifts with her business relationships and mental health.

Tara. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I'm so excited to have you.

Tara: I am excited and a little nervous to be here. Thanks for having me.

Nancy: We're just going to dive right in. Cause that's how I like to roll. I know you identify with the term high functioning anxiety. What about the term specifically speaks to you?

Tara: I think it probably would be helpful to go back to. When I first realized that I had an issue with anxiety in the first place, because the term anxiety did not use to resonate with me. I think we've had the conversation before. Ah, obviously off podcast that I had always identified as someone who suffered from depression and sort of the ups and downs of that mental health, the challenge.

And I have ever since I was at least 12 years old, probably before that. And so because depression was always something that I owned, it was part, it was part of my identity. It was something, yeah. Almost always forefront in my mind either. Hey, I feel great. Isn't it awesome that I'm not depressed right now or I'm depressed right now.

What am I doing about that? It's just something that has always been around that. Anything other than that just didn't register and it wasn't until, yeah. Literally last summer in the car with my husband, driving from Pennsylvania to Montana, which gives you a lot of time to think and process and talk about stuff that he said tell me when the last time was that you didn't feel anxious.

And I said, what are you talking about? Feel anxious. And I pause and I took a beat and I thought, and I. And at that point, I'd learned enough about anxiety to be able to identify in that moment. Finally, there's never been a time feel anxious, however and I should also say, but, I told him, no, this is just how I feel.

This is just normal. And he said, but I don't feel like that. I know plenty of people who don't feel like that, who don't, you don't act on the way they're feeling the way that you do. That's not normal that's anxiety. And it was a huge wake up. And also I think helpful in that, that I had been out of a depressive mode out of a depressive dip for quite a while.

And so I had some space away from that challenge to really think through the rest of my mental health picture.

Nancy: But like a year out of the depressive episode or like a month out of the depressive episode

Tara: It would have been a couple of years since I had felt pretty bad.

It came back last fall. That sucked. But yeah, so it's been a, it's been up and down since then, but yeah, but it was a good time, that, yeah. I think at that point, I really started to realize was that my, what I thought of as anxiety. And the way I saw that manifesting for other people was not how it manifested for me.

And then I could identify pretty quickly that what was anxiety for me was also some of the stuff in my mental health landscape that made me really productive and efficient and look like I had it. Gather. And so then when, when we started talking more with you and really dug into high functioning anxiety, it was just very obvious that it was like, oh, this manifests in a different way to, this is clearly what I am experiencing.

So that's the very long story of how I relate to that term

Nancy: So you had not done any work quote unquote, around anxiety. It had always been from the lens of depression.

Tara: Absolutely. Yes.

Nancy: And so you were either hopped up in high functioning anxiety, this now, or that was like your status quo, the high functioning anxiety over-performing

Tara yeah, I would say status quo.

Nancy: Okay. And then you would have bouts of depression, right?

Tara: Yes. And I would say that now I can look at that and say that the depression is also colored by anxiety as well. And that. Probably one of the reasons that people are surprised to find out I suffer from pretty bad depression is that my high functioning anxiety probably keeps me pretty productive when other people would be in bed all day long.

Understandably. So yeah, so I, I think that's. I can identify my high functioning anxiety, even within a depressive period as well. And yeah, for good and for bad, I think probably.

Nancy: So was that a relief when you came to this? Aha. Or was it like a dammit?

Tara: It was a dammit. Absolutely. I think, there's a certain relief in being able to label something and identify it.

But it was also like but I'm doing so well. Why do I need to like, deal with something else now? So yeah, it was a very quickly turned into a dammit moment. Okay.

Nancy: Because I appreciate, I think that is so common for people with high functioning anxiety to have your hands. Say, I don't feel like this all the time.

It was just what really, that's such a great and also that's just great to have him saying that to you like to have that voice, but also a little bit. I remember no, when my husband says it to me, it's a little jarring to be like how can you live your life and not have this intense, Feeling all the time.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly how I feel about it. And I still even though I know what's happening, I find myself still ruminating on that too. Like, why am I the only one that cares about what time we get to this place or what the confirmation number is on the hotel or where we're going on vacation or like how the dishwasher is loaded or like all of this crap.

And I have to say, oh, he's not thinking about this, the way that I'm thinking about it. Yeah. And that's good for him that he's not thinking about these things. It doesn't make him low functioning. It doesn't mean that he doesn't care. It means that he's not ruminating on things the way I ruminate on things. I have to check myself.

Nancy: Yeah. Oh, totally. We just went camping this past weekend and my husband with my nieces and nephews and I'm like, okay. Making sure the food's already, even though the nieces and nephews were in charge of the meal, I'm the one that's boiling the noodles and teaching them how to cook and doing all the things.

And my husband's, drinking a beer, standing on the porch and I'm like, I get mad at him for being able to do that when I'm like, there's all this stuff that needs to get done. Why are you just chilling? And then recognizing I'm the only one that thinks all this stuff needs to get done. Everyone else is just camping.

Yes. I'm the one checking things off the list. So since learning about that, you have anxiety. What has changed for you? Has that changed anything in your work and your life and how you approach things?

Tara: I think I'm still at the point. With it, where I'm in the awareness phase. I've done a lot of kind of life change and mindset work and mental health work over the last few years.

And it seems to run in a few different phases where I hit that point of knowing of realization like, oh, this is what's going on. And then. Fairly long phase of just working to be aware of it instead of just letting it happen. And so I'm still very much in that phase of noticing when I'm ruminating, noticing when I'm getting angry at other people, for not thinking about things that I'm thinking about when.

Over functioning over-performing in order to exercise control, or try to exercise control over a situation and just being able to identify and acknowledge, okay, this is what's going on right now. Maybe I keep doing it because in that moment, it's the only thing I know how to do. But knowing, just knowing and holding that awareness that this is what's happening.

I think I am hopeful that as the uncertainty of this year, Maybe dissipates at some points that I will be able to take more constructive action around it, but I'm very much still in a place where this is new enough to me. And then this whole, this whole wild year is new for everybody that there's too many.

Inputs going on for me to be able, I think, to take more constructive action other than a lot of self care. Making sure, just for instance, like one of the things over the last few months that I've really had to work on is making sure that every single morning I am spending a lot of time regulating myself.

System making sure that I'm in a really good head space to face the day. And waking up early, spending two hours in some sort of movement practice, whether it's lifting weights or it's running or it's walking or yoga and just really Cree creating that space so that I have. I have more capacity to deal with.

Whatever's coming my way. That's been really helpful. But in terms of stopping it when it starts, I'm not sure there yet. Yeah.

Nancy: That's that is, yeah, you're doing great. Just for the record. So is that hard? Is it hard to get up in the morning and do that stuff or is it. Because you see the benefit of it's been easy or is it still a struggle every morning?

Tara: No, it's the best part of my day is the best part of my day. It, does it suck to wake up at 5:00 AM every day? May maybe, I'm not sleeping a whole lot right now. So that I don't feel like I'm losing out on sleep. I go to bed really early, i, I get seven, seven and a half hours of sleep every night.

I feel pretty good about that as a 37 year old woman. And yeah, w by the time I drink my coffee and eat my breakfast, I am ready to hit. I would love to say ready to hit the gym, but I'm ready to hit my little extra room. Wait stuff is or I'm ready to go for a really long walk or a long run.

And I love it. It is my time to check in with me to listen to a podcast and either learn something or process what I've been feeling through someone else's voice. And just get that time where no one is demanding anything of me, but me. So yeah, it's, it is absolutely. I won't say that it's all best time of the day, my day, but it is absolutely one of the best times of the day.

And I look forward to it every single morning.

Nancy: Nice. That's awesome. Because I know a lot of people struggle with taking that time, even when they know it's important and it helps and it feels so good. It's the idea of I'm not worthy of this time or. I've, but there I have so many clients say to me, I know if I get up early and I, blah, whatever that is.

It sets me up for the day, but getting myself to do that, and it's not even the getting up early, they may get up early, but they fill it with other stuff. It's that you have this devoted time to you is cool.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think like why I don't feel more pressure to get in front of my inbox for instance, before, in that time.

But I think it is because. So I've been working out consistently for three and a half years now. And it has been a process of realizing just how much it does for me. In the beginning it was the exercise of discipline and. Routine and habit formation that did a lot for me it turned into like really optimizing for performance and like how much weight can I lift?

How much faster can I run? And that was really good for me. And now it really is the practice of self care. And recognizing that I can't do it. What I need to do the rest of the day if I don't carve out that time. And it really has in these last four months with COVID and everything that I need two hours, I need two solid hours, or I don't feel like I have the capacity to process what I need to process.

Throughout the day. So we really, it has become a non-negotiable for me. And as much as maybe I could convince myself that an extra half hour of work would be better or an extra hour of work would be better in the day. I know that if I. Collapsed that time that I wouldn't be any more productive.

Like I intellectually I can make that argument objectively. I can make that argument. There's nothing that extra half hour is going to buy me that the productivity and the capacity I get from the extra time to myself and in movement allows me in the rest of the day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. I think that whole concept, that is the whole concept of building self loyalty that I talked so much about, that you were saying, this is a non-negotiable time.

And I know even I've noticed for me, I have that. I do that a similar thing. But I was started sleeping in more and more like cutting into my time. And then my husband would get up and I'd be like mad at him for busting into my time recognizing, oh wait, I'm the one that needs to hold this time sacred by getting up earlier.

And it's the holding the time sacred, I think is the piece that's so powerful. Not because some journal told me that this is good for anxiety reduction or because I can get my workout in, but because this is just what I, this is my time. And anytime we can hold something sacred, that's a win. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So then the other place I want to go is, so I have been, Tara has been a mentor of mine for many years. So I have watched her from afar go through her own trends, transformation. And so I now that I have you in the hot seat, I wanted to ask you about that because as I just touched on, I think we can reduce.

Anxiety by building that self loyalty. Yeah. In watching you over the past few years, you really have embraced your humanness and taken off the I'm a professional. This is what a, an entrepreneur looks like, this is what I need to be performing. This is all my perception from afar. So tell me if I'm totally wrong about this.

And I'm just going to show up as me. And because that's where the sweet spot is. That's the stuff people want to see. And so you've really, I feel ticket a concerted effort to shut off the performance and the perfectionism, and really show up as this is Tara and I'm someone who loves to work out and I wear sweatshirts and I'm not all perfectly, done up every day and looking professional.

Makeupy. So I just was curious, is that accurate? Tell me more about that.

Tara: Yeah, so it was absolutely a concerted effort, a very intentional change that I made. And it was part of this whole process of getting clear on how I wanted to show up in the world, what mistakes I had been making that were.

And I do I don't say mistakes. Flippantly. It very, it very sincerely like things that I had done that were not helpful to me, that weren't helpful to anyone else and could have continued to do me harm and others harm had I not made a change. Yeah. I don't know if you want to get into this, but I am.

I identify very strongly as an Enneagram three. I I am very, I can see my own patterns around really caring. What other people think of me, how I present myself to the world. The visual component of it, the intellectual component of it, the leadership component of it, I very much want to be perceived as someone who has my shit together.

And someone who has not just has value in the world, but is doing something right, is really successful. And so when I think about this, I think about one of the. Big classes that I taught on creative live, which is a video learning platform where I taught for many years. And I taught a class called build a standout business. Back in 2013, I think 2014. Maybe 2015. I don't know. It was a while ago

Nancy: Wow. That's crazy. That it's been so long

Tara: . I think it was 2015. I think. I think I'm conflating some different classes I taught, but still at least five years ago. When I taught that class, like the. What I got from them was like, we're going to put all of our energy behind this.

This is you are our woman. We are so excited to have you for this class. This is going to be here. And I was like, yes. So I went out and. Spent a ton of money on the clothes that I was going to wear on this class. Because I wanted to embody the visual of what, some of what the star, small business trainer, the star, small business educator on this platform would look like.

Back at that class. And I looked great. Like these clothes were amazing. And also I don't look like me. I don't, I wasn't me. I was trying to be someone else. The last class that I taught on creative live, I literally wore a t-shirt jeans and Chuck Taylors.

And to me. It like visually represents getting more comfortable with showing up as I am owning what I have to bring to the literal stage in that case or in the metaphorical stage in life. And I can't say that I do that fully because I still have a lot of issues around self-worth and like the perception of success and all of that stuff.

Yeah. I used to use those things. As I used to conflate the perception of success with credibility. And I had to really get clear on my credibility, not coming from any particular milestone that I hit or any particular dress that I wore, how much I spent on that dress or how much money I made or how many clients I had or whatever my credibility had to come from.

Me my knowledge, my experience, my ability to work through a problem, even without, experience and any knowledge. And I had to be able to own that. But within that, I also had to be able to own that. I don't always get it right. And that sometimes there's more to learn. I can be of more value to people.

I can create more connections to people when I share the stuff I don't get. Or when I share the questions that I'm wrestling with, or when I share, when something feels really hard. And I had to recognize the credibility can come from that as well. And that I could do more good. I could actually.

I could actually be the thing I've always wanted to be. If I was willing to take off the fancy dress and put on the Chuck Taylors and own that, whether it's, in a blog post or a podcast episode, or a post that I make on Instagram or a conversation that I have with someone for a podcast. Yes, I appreciate you noticing that and it's, and it has been a very intentional slow.

Deep process of kind of unlearning how I learned to show up in the world over decades and finding a way to tap into what is true for me and owning the ups and the downs of that as a way to connect with people and as a way to better connect with myself, I think as well.

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. That was so well said.

And being the person that's on the, who has followed you all those years and seeing that transition, as I said from afar is fascinating because I I think it was right after that. I unsubscribed from you right after the 2015 thing followed you for years, since I started my business and I started to know seven, I don't know when you came on.

In that process but then once you started being more Tara, I came back, and I think, and I say that not to be like, just to be like, yeah, it's fine. You know what, and all the people that I followed when I was following you back in the very beginning, I have unfollowed if they're still around, because I, their message hasn't changed or whatever, a thousand different reasons, but I can relate to your desire to be human and to lead from that.

Tara: It's funny you say to lead from that place too, because I think for. In that process. I thought I needed to step out of leadership to be human, to own my mistakes, to be vulnerable. And so I diminished myself. A lot in that process. So was it a learning process? Was it a growing process? Was it a process that brought people back that brought in new art?

Yes, absolutely. And I S even in that process, I still assumed I am that I was diminishing myself and that I needed to diminish myself in order to be able to pull this off. And now literally right now I am reckoning. What does it look like to keep all of that intact, but the step back up on a stage, what does it look like to be vulnerable, to share mistakes, to say I don't have it all figured out, but to say in all of that, I have something to say, I can help you let's do this together.

And I will lead you. That's a really, I don't know what that looks like yet, but that's what I'm reckoning with right now. And it's an interest. It's a really interesting problem for me to tackle in my, in this like next step of the journey for me.

Nancy: Yeah, I could totally see that.

And that's something that I reckon that I also reckon with because the number one feedback I get from my clients is, oh, it's so awesome because you're fighting this fight too. And I'm, so I want to work with you on that. And then I'm always like, and that, that is such a human response. Yeah.

I want someone who's, that's one reason I'm attracted to you. I want someone who's wrestling with the same stuff. I'm wrestling it at a higher level, I you, because you immerse yourself more in leadership and you talk with different people than I talk with, so yeah. You do know different things than I know, but you're also wrestling with the same stuff I'm wrestling with, which I, and I want that person as a mentor.

Yeah. Wrestling on a higher level, but it is uncomfortable as the leader person, as the me to be, to remind myself. Yeah, I do know more. I am higher level than my clients because I have immersed myself in this and because not, as I frequently will say to my husband, not everyone is obsessed with high-functioning anxiety and that just blows my mind, because it is where I spend all my time.

And just to remember that even that is giving something to my clients. Yes. That could leadership, but man, that voice of that idea of what we need to be a leader isn't it, is all around. Cause I think it is easier to put on the fancy clothes and go out there then to be completely one with.

The authenticity of this is me and all my vulnerability and all my, I don't have it all together. And I'm still here.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. And especially in the space that I operate in, like here I am. T-shirt jeans, sweatshirts, hoodies, hair tied back in a ponytail kind of Instagram person next to the fancy ladies on Instagram.

Right next to the people in high heels and gorgeous dresses and perfect waves and amazing eye makeup and eyelashes. Yeah. It is very easy to discount showing up as I am. And that being enough,

Nancy: yeah. Because it being human isn't valued by the larger society. Showing up as human is not valued and.

But I think there are by the larger society, like I said, but I think it is a huge value. And I think it's an important value for the, if you have that value, it is important to be sharing it with the world because that's back to the self loyalty of that's going to show up. Yeah. What. When you say I'm going to I'm backing up here.

When you said you made a mistakes that were harmful. Do you have an example? Like not a super-intense one, but I was just curious, like you made a mistakes that were harmful by doing this separating out who you were having the performance person from, who you are.

Tara: Yeah. I think that the, one of the biggest quote, unquote, mistakes that I can just think about is, I used to have a business coaching program called quiet power strategy, which is great program.

I completely stand by it. I stand by the way. Th the vision for it. And one of the things, one of the mistakes that I made was getting. Allowing myself and even joyfully moving in the direction of being the one with the answers. And so the purpose, the vision for the program was giving people tools to coach themselves on their own business to work through what does it mean to have a brand?

What does it mean to put together a business model? What does this look like for me? How am I going to approach this? And really the whole thought process of how. Wrestle with those questions and problems as business owners. And then to do that also in a peer support environment, in small groups where you could work with other people on those things, but where the program evolved was people wanted a piece of me.

They wanted me to answer questions, me, to tell them what to do, and there's something. That's that can be really intoxicating, right? People wanting your opinion and what, your answer. And you're the expert. Tara, tell me what to do. And I will fully admit to being drunk on that a few years ago.

And at the same time, very frustrated by it and being like, how did I get here? This wasn't what I meant to build. But it took it took a process of wrestling with that. So that's one of the mistakes, because. It did impact. It impacted my business. It impacted my life. It impacted my self identity.

And I think it impacted people too. It impacted other people. And maybe saying that it did harm is going a little too far, but I look back on that and think. What harm could I have done? What did I do in that process that I didn't catch it sooner that I didn't, that I didn't change tack sooner that I didn't set expectations more clearly.

And so I have a lot of that's still something that often keeps me not, maybe not keeps me up at night, but something that I think about quite a bit. And so a lot of where I've gone over the last few years is moving away from that. And. Maybe even too far in one direction. But that's one of the mistakes that comes to mind.

Nancy: Okay. Thank you for sharing. Cause I just wanted people to be able to hear, the downside of this in a specific way. And I do think that's how we make change that, you recognize, oh my gosh, this I'm too intoxicated. On this expert thing. So I'm going to completely go into, I'm not an expert, I'm just one of you.

And then we regroup into the center, which sounds like what you're wrestling with now is what do I do? Yeah. And I think that is especially intoxicating to someone with high functioning anxiety to be the expert, because then I don't, I, my worth is answered every time I answer a question, I get up, I get a little ping of I'm worthy.

I'm worthy, which is such a win. So it's this dangerous combination. Of being an enneagram three, having the high functioning anxiety, not that you don't want me to be psychoanalyzing you on the podcast,

Tara: but having daddy issues. Yeah. Yeah it’s all there (laughter)

Nancy: I'll send you a bill when we're done. Okay. (laughter)

So how, what is changed since making, what are the benefits or what have you, in the negatives that have changed? You have noticed since making this shift to being more, bringing more Tara to the scene?

Tara: I think one of the biggest benefits is more genuinely connecting with people.

One of the things that used to frustrate me immensely was that I would. Very honestly and authentic authentically, even with such authority or share from such authority or teach from such authority that I'd get nothing back. People just be like, yeah. Yeah. Let me just tell me more, which was great.

Lots of note taking lots of nodding. Lots of whoa. Ah, Tara. That's good. But not any dialogue. And like I'm an academic at heart. I would, I crave that experience of being in the classroom and having these conversations about ideas and concepts and exploring things from different angles and seeing how things resonate with different people.

And I didn't have that. Then and now showing up in a much more human way, having a lot more openness around what I share, even when I am speaking very much from a position of leadership, I get that dialogue. I get the people. Sharing back with me, I get the connection there and the relationship building there.

And that's intoxicating in its own way. And then I think in a much more positive way. So that's one of the, that's one of the huge benefits. I think also I start to see. Sort of the teachable opportunities in a different way. I don't have to have figured something out in order to share it. I am way more free to share when I'm in process with something, what I'm struggling with, something when I've noticed something.

And I don't know what it means yet, but I think, maybe other people have had this experience too, and I want to draw people into that conversation. And so that's created a lot. Yeah. Creative freedom for me. And I think just on a much higher level as well. I don't beat that true. And it's also not true.

I want it to be true. I don't beat myself up for quote unquote failure as much, right? Like I'm more accepting of when something doesn't go the way I thought it was going to go or when something breaks and it needs to be fixed. I still struggle with it a lot, but it doesn't. Quite send me into a spiral of.

Negative self-worth or like just negating any value that I bring into the world. It doesn't change my identity as much as it used to. Because I see the value in the stumbles too. I still have a lot of work to do on that particular piece of it, but I can see how. I can see moving in the right direction with that one.

Nancy: Because I know there was a glitch that happened recently with on the, you did a forum around money and the first session had a glitch with the person being able to join. And it, it was good to you guys handled it amazingly well, and it all went to curious, but I'm curious on your, behind the scenes, in your brain.

As that glitch was happening and it took us 15 minutes or so to get re combobulated, what was that like for you?

Tara: Oh my God. It was terrible. So yeah, technology problems. Our, one of my big triggers. If there is a technology problem, I will spiral out of control really quickly. What you may not know is that we have the tech problem in that session.

And then in the next session that I was hosting the speaker did not show up.

Yes, we had a time zone issue and we had communicated that at least Eastern time she had put it in her calendar on central time is fine. We worked it out, but that one, two punch just about ruined my day.

And. I think it was, it's a huge win for me, even to be able to say that I got anywhere back on track by the end of that day. But it did take me, it took me until the final session until I felt like, all right, we're here, it's fine. And I could see, people were loving it, no one cared and it wasn't a big deal, but yeah, no technology problems just send me down a complete spiral.

Like I spiral is the best word that I have for that, because. It just, it goes out of control and I go round and around and around and around until it either gets fixed or, we reschedule or whatever it might be, whatever the next step is. And it will take me hours and hours to shake that field.

Nancy: Because that was interesting to observe because I just knowing you, I knew you were spinning out on it, but also being a participant was just like no big deal, like it wasn't, you guys handled it. You moved us all to the next place. Like it, it seems. Stressful for you, but relatively like whatever on my end.

And so I always find those fascinating when I knew in your brain, that was, it was not a whatever experience,

Tara: Not it wasn’t. (laughter) And maybe thanks to high functioning anxiety, I think really fast on my feet. I just always think really fast. So we did not have a specified plan B I think in the future, we will have a specified plan B, but It was very easy for me to know what to do next, but yeah, no, that was rough.

Nancy: But I think too, that idea of when I can recognize I'm going to be human and I'm going to wrap us up here when I can recognize that I'm being human. Like you were in that. That's what was so wonderful about that session was the humanness about it. You were human about it. And Shannon you're the technical runner person was human about it and Jacare the speaker was human about it.

And then everyone was like, now, here we go. Like we messed up. Here we go. And I think when we can have that idea of I'm being human, we can recognize where we messed up. We can make necessary things and then we can move forward. Next time. Now we're going to have a bucket. Now we're going to have a plan B all the time.

Cause we're not doing this again. And so being able to recognize that, I think is the power in being human versus getting so caught up in the performance? Yeah. Yeah, totally. Not saying it's easy or, but I think it is it is a worthy goal and I really appreciate you coming on and.

And sharing some concrete examples of how this has shown up for you and the struggle it continues to be, but the victories you are having because of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Tara: It's been quite a journey and it's the journey continues and who knows what will happen next year in 2020 that could bring it be another step on the journey.

I appreciate the chance to talk about it.

Nancy: Has it been helpful to talk about, I'm just curious, and this may not make it on the podcast. Has it been helpful to talk about it in this vein, in this lens? Or you think about it like this all the time? This wasn't a new lens?

Tara: That's a good question. I think just because I think we have been working with you long enough now I have started to think about it through this lens on a regular basis.

Yeah, these are actually like the conversation around the dresses that I bought for that one creative live class versus wearing jeans. And then my last creative live class was a conversation that Sean and I had a couple of nights ago. So yeah. And honestly, I think probably even more than me thinking about it through this lens, he's thinking about it through this lens and then grilling me.

So it's really just like I'm talking to him right now.

Nancy: It was classic. I said to him the other night, my husband and I were talking about something in my mom and I, my mom, I have a habit of putting my monger on. So it's coming from him and and he turned to me and he goes, this is your monger. I'm not talking with you about this.

And he just turned on the TV and totally shut me down. And I was a little bit like what's that? I was like, he's right. Why are we headed down this path? And then I'm like, oh my God, I have trained him to. He knows my stuff too. Now he's calling me out on it.

Tara: Yeah. Because I feel like I'm starting to suffer from that problem too.

Nancy: Okay, Tara, thank you for your time and your honesty and your sharing, your journey and being the marketer. Absolutely. Thank you. Tell people where they could find out more information about what it is you're doing. Yeah,

Tara: so I'm the easiest place to find me is@explorewhatworks.com. You can find the, what works podcast there and you can find our community there and all the things that we're doing our newsletter.

And then if you're interested in podcasting yellow house.media is the website for our podcast production agent.

Nancy: And if you don't already know yellow house media is who does my podcast as well. So that is how I've gotten to experience more joy with Tara and Sean. Yeah. Okay. Thanks Tara. Being human is an ongoing journey and surrounding ourselves with people who are also struggling to show up more fully, despite their monger telling them they need to fit in is key.

It's so helpful to hear Tara story and to recognize we aren't alone. Business leaders, mentors, parents, friends are all struggling with mongers. And self-doubt, I recently heard a quote that said, never assume you're the only one in the room who has self doubt. That is what I kept hearing during this interview.

We are all struggling with self doubt. Even if we have mastered a calm, cool exterior, and we can all make changes, small, tiny ways to check in with ourselves and make sure we are listening to our own wisdom before heading out into the world to see what we should be.

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Episode 144: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 2

In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.

There is so much pressure to be the perfect parent. 

My clients tell me all the time that they consistently feel they have to be “perfect” and be all the things to their children. That anxiety infiltrates everything they do—and that anxiety can also impact their children. 

One thing we can do to decrease not only our own anxiety but our kids’ anxiety, too, is by being honest about what we have time for, what our expectations are, and own up when we fail. It’s important not only for our children but also for ourselves. 

This week, I’m continuing my interview with parenting expert and coach, Renee Mattson about anxiety in children and how as parents we can help raise our kids with more resiliency and less anxiety.

If you missed it, I highly recommend listening to part one where Renee shared helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your children and why clear boundaries, empathy and compassion are so important. 

Renee is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. She’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why it’s so important to follow your gut as a parent

• Creative ways to support our kids without accommodating them

• How to solve the ultimate problem: wanting to spend as much time with your children but not having any time

• Why putting your children ahead of your marriage can lead to increased anxiety

Resources mentioned:

• Child In Bloom

• Child In Bloom on Facebook

• Atlantic Article: What Happened to American Childhood?

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Renee: I think we're so busy reading and looking up things and watching our friends, what they're doing with their kids and thinking I have to be just like them and In your little house in your little community, in your little world, making it right for your kid to function so he can leave your house and be a good little citizen and survive this week.

Nancy: I'm continuing my interview with Renee Mattson, parenting expert and coach. We are discussing anxiety and children. If you miss part one, I encourage you to listen to episode 1 43. First one thing Renee talked about in part one was recognizing that we as parents need to talk our kids through the anxiety, but not in the anxious moment, which is what we tend to do.

We need to be helping our kids through anxiety in the moments when all is good. Which is also very true of ourselves. We need to be building skills around anxiety and the times when everything is fine, not just when we're feeling anxious, you're listening to the half year approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. We continue our conversation about anxiety in children and how as parents, we can help raise our kids with more resiliency and less anxiety. In part two, we dive into why it is so important to follow your gut as a parent creative ways to support our kids without accommodating.

How to solve the ultimate problem, a lack of time and wanting to spend as much time with our children, but not having the time to do and putting your children ahead of your marriage and how that can lead to increased anxiety. You shared with me that when your oldest daughter who she's 19?

Renee: 19, now

Nancy: your mom said to you, oh, just throw those damn books away.

I refuse to let you raise this baby in the age of anxiety, the books, can't tell you what you already know what to do. What did she mean by that? And how did that influence your parenting?

Renee: Definitely influenced it. And at the same time, I had a pediatrician that told me almost the exact same words that you can do this.

You could give her ice cream every day. You could never give her ice cream and she's going to be fine. Just follow your gut. You could nurse her for zero days. You could nurse her for four days. For four years. She's gonna be fine. Follow your gut. I was like, oh, I have a gut. I I don't think that anybody really says that to moms.

Like you've got this natural instinct. And you and the natural instinct goes. And that's what my mom, I think was trying to say is just follow the child, follow her, look at her, see her, hear her and get to know her because your nose is in this phone. We didn't have a phone by the way, when I was raising him, he, we didn't have phones.

But what I'm trying to say to moms is your nose is so busy. Phone reading up on all the ways to be a parent that you're not looking at this little person. Who's trying to tell you how to be a parent. Trying to know you. Look, watch me, follow me, see me, look me in the eye, hear me know me. And put that book or phone away.

Now, obviously I'm talking to parents, so then that's like the whole but what I mean by that is you're going to hear things that I say or Nancy says, or. John Roseman says or love and logic says, or whatever parenting book you read says, and you're going to your guts going to go. Ooh, that, that goes with me.

That really helps. That goes with what, how I see the world that helps me to figure out what I, my system's going to be. And my system will not be what my neighbor's system. We are going to parent differently because my husband's different. My background's different. My child's different. So I'll give you an example with Evie.

So they're our daughter, so she's the baby. And I don't tells me that. I'm like, okay, I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to read every single thing that really helped me to like, almost cut the cut. Perfection thing, cause I have a perfectionist, so you don't have to be, I don't know what I'm doing.

You didn't either just don't eat all the books like, and so that helped me because I could have read a thousand bucks on it. So I just kept reading of course, because I can't help it, but I would just start to read only a page, just open up the book and read a little bit and Ooh, I like that idea or that it'll give you an example with Evie.

She was when she was little. And we would go to play group and all of these moms were there and we'd walk in and there were loud and noisy. And Evie was between my legs and under, like under me, like literally hiding, super shy. She's a girl like in her preschool picture had her Lammy over her face in the picture, just no attention.

I do not want you paying attention to me. And I don't want, she's still that way. In college but I was trying to fit her in to what the world was saying. You're supposed to do. You're supposed to go to playgroup and you're supposed to go do this. And I knew it was a teacher. She needs social skills.

So I had to find a balance between what the world is telling me what's wrong with her. I literally had a mom in the group say, does she talk. Does she even talk? I've never heard her talk and think, she talks a little bit time at home and she's here and she's like overwhelmed by you guys talking.

So in that moment I realized, wait a minute, this isn't working for her. Like I got to follow my gut in her gut. And so we started going early. I would always call a little bit early if that's okay. And I told the mom, I had to be honest, I had to name it like every just does better if I get there early.

Settled she's in that when you, when all the kids are walking into the house at one time overload on the social anxiety for the two year old. So we would get early, she'd start playing. And one by one, her friends are coming in and she's feeling way more comfortable. I my stress went down because as soon as her anxiety is up, my anxiety is up and I was like, Ooh, I'm so much nicer when I'm walking in with the whole crowd, because I probably have the same thing she does.

So with that, but I hope that I had to follow my gut and hers. I had to follow the child, not pretend to make her be like everybody else's and do what she needed, not what I needed. Sometimes go. Two. I just wait until they all, if I couldn't get there early, I'd be like, we're just going to go really well and come in once they're all settled.

And then she's the one person walking in. That makes sense. But that's the deal is that you don't have to do what everybody else is doing. Follow your gut and follow the function because you want to have fun and you want to function like Evie needs to function it, social groups. I needed her to do that.

Like I'm not going to keep her home. I

Nancy: Cause that's what was thinking. It would be the accommodating thing.

Renee: . No, we're going to playgroup. We're just going to go to playgroup, which is power. We might get following her guts. No one told me how to do it. I just felt like this isn't working.

And when I got called on it by a friend that said, what's wrong with her, I was like, nothing's wrong with her? But it made me my gut talk louder. I think so. I think so busy reading and looking up things and watching our friends, what they're doing with their kids and thinking I have to be just like them and no in your little house, in your little community, in your little world, making it right for your kid to function so he can leave your house and be a good little citizen and survive.

Nancy: Okay. Now, did you talk to her before you would leave? She was only two. So

Renee: I know she got overwhelmed by the kids' behaviors. Honestly. Now I can look back as later in her life, it'd be like, mommy, they were really loud. They yelled, things like that will be.

When she started to talk, I knew what it was. And she was just like, whoa. Like my kids being kids, we used to say she's more mature than we are. Even as a baby. Oh, she's more mature than her mom and dad are. So I think that might've been what it was that she was just looking at them. Like, why are these children acting like children?

So we might like on the way home and be like, yeah, did you see them scream at the, like I might talk about how it went. How did that made you feel as she got older? Definitely. What I remember being in the car with her and her baby brother Mick later and saying, talking to them after a social situation or before I don't remember drawing.

I did not draw it out for her

Nancy: . Okay. Yeah. Because I like that addition because I would say one thing, and I've talked about this before in the podcast, my mom gave me a ton of strategies for dealing with my anxiety. Like that one, come late or go early. And I still do that to this day, but she never talked to me how she was.

She was only on the strategies. She wasn't on my feelings around it. So she never normalized it for me that this is okay that you need this. It was just like, you're a little goofy. And so here's what you need to do to survive it. She never said those words, it's we're a little socially awkward in this family, and this is what we do to get around that instead of normalizing the anxiety or the feeling, or, that I was okay needing these ways of doing it

Renee: . I think that Toby, my husband and I, we both. Anxiety walking around with mild to moderate anxiety and talk about it ourselves. Maybe we can't help it talk about it. Like the other day I literally said to our whole family because had been together so much, I was like, I'm taking my lunch and I'm going in the other room and eating by myself.

My body's telling me that's what I need right now. So we might openly, we've been doing that for years. So that's just a natural way. We talk around the house. I'll get Peter's our youngest. And he, when he was. Waiting for the school bus was a very anxious time for him. I would say, buddy, I can tell you got your worries.

Get through worries. No big deal. We got to run in place. We got to throw the ball. We got to do something. He would be, you asked me a lot of questions about things like when what's it going to be like riding the best mommy. This is before kindergarten. What's it going to look like? And I'll never forget.

I do have that piece of paper someplace. I literally put a piece of paper down and drew here. And here's the school and here's your friend Peyton's house and here's this guy's house and here's the, and they're going to stop by all the tests and pick them up and they're going to get on the bus. And then there's Mrs.

Blank, your teacher, and she's going to be there and she's going to walk you in and that's oh, okay. Like he, we talked out loud about all this stuff to him. He needed to see it. It like we do have these adult conversations. Plus he had older brothers and sisters are like, oh, Peter, it'll be fine on the bus.

It'll be this deal. This is what's going to happen. And he's I'm not picturing, I don't know what you're talking about. But as soon as I drew that picture, he's oh, I feel safe. I know where I'm going to.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love that piece of paper idea. A, because it helps, they don't have to make eye contact with you.

I think that's brilliant, but also because it's just, it relaxes both of you and you've come into the moment.

Renee: It's not you. It's not you. It's not me. It's just this thing. It's just a scene in a story. I really don't want my kids or the kids I work with to ever feel like it's you, this is who you are.

It's like a thing. You've got a thousand things. That's why I drive that circle with the parents. Let's write out, oh, there's so many cool things about this kid. And you're going to bump against the world a couple of times. Yes.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. So we had But also I've been talking about it. And one thing I wanted to cover was, the time again, we're back to the time crunch.

And then the parents, the working parents and then the kids at daycare, the parents bring them home and they got, or school or whatever. And then there's the three hour, two hour rush to do dinner, homework, get them to bed and everything gets. Messed up because they want to spend as much time with the kid and to have the kid be as happy as possible because they haven't had enough time with them.

What are your thoughts on that?

Renee: So here's the deal when we said you have to be I say this all the time, so maybe I didn't say it, but I didn't feel like I said, you have to be a teacher. You are not just. So you're like, oh yeah, I got the memo. We're teaching now right now. But before this happened and for forever, you're a teacher.

So just you need to make them dinner. Even if you're a working mom and you only had two hours with them at night, you're not going to forget dinner. Most of them don't forget to give them a bath. You're not going to forget to pack their lunch the next day.

You're not going to forget to give them breakfast in the morning or put them to sleep. You cannot forget that you're a teacher and that you have to carve out the most important time to connect connect, connect four. They need your. Eye ear to ear, body to body. I need you to see me. Mommy, hear me, look me in the eye.

And even if I'm 15 years old, I need you to connect with me, even if it's your punched me on the shoulder and go, Hey, dude, I need you to know me. And if you're so busy, too busy to teach, you're too busy. Ah, if you're too busy to connect four times more than you're correcting, you're too busy. If you're, if you are connecting and you're too busy to correct, you're too busy because that's your job.

And I hate to say that maybe I'll get in trouble for saying this, but I don't care what your job is. I don't care if you're a neurosurgeon or a you're going to go. You're Jane Goodall. I don't care. You are going. This is the most important job you'll ever have. And obviously that's why I do this because I care deeply about it.

So it is more important than anything. And if you will, it will bite you. If you don't, it will come back to bite you. If you're doing too much connection, cause you just can't bear to correct him. If you're doing too much correction, because you don't have time to connect with him. If you're doing too much.

Like distancing yourself from them because you're so busy with work. It's just it's or whatever it is that you've got to carve it out, you have to teach him and you have to model and you have to practice. So I have a working mom, a great working moms story. I can tell you if you want me to. Yeah.

Three kids, they have three kids, they have twins. And then an older daughter, twin girls, and an older daughter loved this family. Both working hardworking people, they get, have to get the kids off to daycare in the morning and get them home at night. And it's so stressful. I know they're stressed out, but they have to do it and they are doing it, but they called me and they want me to come to our house and help us.

Cause we're struggling. They're having a hard time over dinner. So they, we met and we walked through the dinner routine. So they were just really open to we, this is us. We have to do. Like my mom and dad, aren't going to come in here and teach them how to do this. Like the grandparents, the babysitter at school is not going to do this.

The daycare is not going to do it. We got to do this. One of the things that they're really struggling with is they got to go to the store on the weekend. Cause they don't have time during the week to go to the store. So they go to target every Sunday. And the three little girls are a total mess, a target, like it's horrible, it's exhausting.

And the mom hates it and dreads it. So we talked it through and I said, so it looks like this is a problem. It's a thing. It's one of those dots on the circle. That's bumping up against the world. You got to get girls that can function at the store. You gotta go to the store. So we said, we need to teach it outside of the moment.

You need to model it and you need to practice how we behave in a store. And then we're going to go pro when we're going to go in there and we're going to. So at night time, play time, connection time after work between dinner and bedtime, let's play grocery store. Let's literally get the little cart and put the baby downs in it and let's talk it through.

Let's walk it through. Let's go through this about how do we behave at the store. Let's draw even rules and put them on the store so we can talk about those. Of how we behave, what are the go behaviors at the store? So they did that at night and then I told them, you need to practice, but you can't take all three of them to practice because they don't know the skills yet.

So you need to take one and your husband can stay at home with the other two at a time. And literally. Being a skill. If you're going to teach them how to tie their shoes, you wouldn't teach them all three to tie their shoes. At the same time, you would take one at a time. So you're going to take them into that store.

And my mom, if she heard me saying this, get whatever, get them in the cart and take them to the stupid store and think about them. If you did it, like she would never say what I'm saying, she'd be like, come on when you're going to do this, but it's a skill they're not mastering it. Put them in a situation where they can, you've taught it to him.

You've modeled it. Now you've got to practice it. And then you've got to praise and specifically praise. Wow. You were mad. You wanted that toy and you started to scream, but you didn't practice the recovery, practice the growth. Then you're going to weave in, bring in the other one, teach her, then teach the other, then bring two at a time.

Then through time, I don't see. But that changed their life. Not because the store changed their life, but they realized when something comes up, we have a tactic. Now we seek outside of the moment when the next one's upset about something, we gotta teach it, set up the rules. Model it, practice it, come up with the consequences, next steps, positive consequences, negative consequences.

And we got to follow through every time

Nancy and the whole time you're talking, like I am, I'm just thinking this is true for adults. This is true for adults. This is, like all of this stuff, anytime you're learning something new. Yeah. Even the stuff I teach my people about self loyalty and it's all about practice and putting yourself in different situations and trying it and patience, and it takes time and, not doing it in the moment where you're super stressed.

Like it's just fascinating. How it, how I think so much of what I do is because parents didn't do it.

Renee: And it goes back to the whole and they might not have done it because of what you asked me first is that they were too nervous to walk through that. You know what I mean?

To feel that feeling in the stores, it's easier to leave the store or it's easier just to give them whatever they want us to be quiet in the store. Rather than to stop and honestly, in the store, what I might've done is just be like, we'll stop. We'll stop. I'll move the car right up to the front cart, up to the front.

We'll just wait. I'm good. I've been five. I don't have to. And so I can just hang out here. Maybe I'll buy myself a coffee and I'll just wait until we're ready to go back. So it's a, maybe a halfway immediate medium between my mom and what they would have done what I taught these other people to do, but yes, cause that's my gut.

How I might parent anyways, I think the time part for those families that work so hard as you have they realized they had to. Out. They had to say, this is that important, as important as soccer practice and piano practice. And they were getting into that we need to put them inside or, science cloud afterschool, and this afterschool and this.

So they were like giving themselves less time. This is way more important than science club, way more important than piano lessons and making sure I'm up to par with all my neighbor's kids. No, you got to get them to go to Tara.

Nancy: Totally. That's 1 0 1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I do think that no, I totally agree with you that, I love how you were like your parents that's your job and this is why you signed up for this and you're teaching them.

And in, I think we're like it, you have to make a choice. And I think that's, so that isn't said enough in our culture, it's always here's a hack and here's how to do it differently. And here's, I could teach you how to do two hours of amazing things in two hours. And you're like, no, I really can't.

You got to make the time. And I think that's, what's really powerful. And one of the reasons I, I actively chose not to have kids is because I knew being a parent would consume me and I didn't want that. And so I think it can fall both ways,

Renee: I just think also too. I really think anybody can do it, so I know you could have, you've been awesome parent.

I'm saying like, literally anybody can do that.

Nancy: Yes. I didn't want to spend my, I selfishly didn't want my aim. One could argue with selfishly or not. I didn't want to put my time into. A parent.

Renee: I'm saying that because I feel like a lot of parents are like, maybe I shouldn't do this.

Maybe I'm not cut out for that. Maybe I should never have been a mom. I don't know what to do. You know what to do? You're the teacher, you know what you like, what you don't like, you got to teach what you don't like a new thing to replace them. That's it. And it's a pretty clear cut system actually, when I go and speak to groups, it's so interesting.

I don't know if it's a bad girl thing or whack, but people who, a lot of men, like what I say, I think, and they like give me a system and an order. Oh, I do this okay, clear cut. Then if you're a systematic woman, you might do the same thing. You want, give me a order to this, put it in a system in a sense.

Nancy: it's very clear which I think is cool. Okay. So my last question to you is I see this all the time in my practice as well is the trend of sacrificing couple times. For the good of the kids. And I know that is something that I really valued growing up, that my parents were together. They went on date nights. They always picked each other over us. I know that, like they were

Renee: I know what you were about to say, “I know that sounds bad. “

Nancy: I was going to, yes. I was going to be like, no, that sounds bad. But they did. And I found comfort in that

Renee: It's not bad.

I think it's so good. What you just said, you felt comfortable, right? You felt safe, like it put border to the family, like that's them first, then us. And the kids just want order. They just want to know the hierarchy. They just want to know what's going on here. Who's in charge. Makes me feel safe that you guys like each other enough to leave us at home with a babysitter or whatever.

We're the same. I grew up, my parents are in your parents are the same age, same generation. I mean they're so that generation over age. So there's 80. Now. I know that grandparents now may not have done that, but our, my parents did the same thing. They were best friends. And I'll tell you what, if they're going on a three-week trip or a one week trip or a weekend trip who cares what the kids thought about it we're going because they knew they hadn't take care of them.

I'm telling you that is so crucial to this. It's crucial. I don't I, the parents I work with that are tagged team. Where they say, ah, you're on, I'm off. Like it's Saturday morning. You've been gone all week at work. I get to go out for the whole day. You take care of the kids, so we don't ever see each other.

So it's you're on, I'm on, you're on, I'm on. The kids get total attention all the time. Bad whammy, if that makes sense, because on, does that make sense? There's all, they're always getting undivided attention. The child gets exactly what they need and want. There is no suffering. There's no but I don't like this situation and I need to survive it.

So there's none of that. Cause give him what he wants. I'm leaving. Make sure he gets what he wants. So that's the first thing. And if there is any downtime, it becomes maybe the only thing that's downtime is the screen, which is another whole conversation. But but then there's the thing of it is that we're in this together.

Like mom and dad make decisions together. We're on the same page, us we're on the same page. A lot of the families I work with do some flip, a lot of flip-flopping. So one parents over here, or one parents over here. Scope of parenting and parenting this way. He's parenting that way. And then they're doing a lot of this, but see us where United front we're right in the middle balanced teaching modeling, practicing.

Now see us going out to dinner so we can talk about it. And we'll see you later, re like us to break away from this. Whether it be, we just go and talk about whatever we want to, or we're actually going to talk about our. And what we want and what we want this to be. And we have a plan in the system and an order we'd like each other enough to do that.

And it's more important than hanging out with them.

Nancy: Yeah. And that then, and also then when it comes to the babysitter thing, because I remember behaving being left with the babysitter. But they walked me through that. Mom and dad would be like, I know you don't like this, but this is what we're doing.

And you have your brothers and let you know, they'll entertain you. And this is how this is going to work there, obviously on record parent, my parents did not coddle me.

Nancy: There was no it's okay. To be scared. It was just a hang onto your head. Get over it. Hang on to your brothers suffer.

You'll be okay. We'll be home. And we'll give you a kiss when we get there and you'll see us in the morning. But it was suffering. I suffered,

Renee: it was okay. I told my husband. Recently, I don't know why it came to me because my parents did go away a lot. They'd travel. I remembered I actually might cry as an adult about it.

That's how much I remember it, but I remember laying in my bed and hearing them zipping up their suitcases at five in the morning and being very sad. Being very sad that they were leaving, but knowing that they will come back, does that like the whole and then as a kid, I may not understand it, but I can now as adult go, they loved each other.

They still love each other more than me. Which is good they're together. And we're not like exactly. I, my own life. And I didn't want to move home after college because they didn't make me feel like I needed to move home after college to make the family. They were complete without.

. So it's so crucial as I'm getting towards the empty nest, I'm like moving in that direction next right soon. It'll be an empty nest. And I thank God Toby night after dinner, every night, since the kids were little. They go do something. I actually don't care what it is. As long as they're not burning the house down in, sometimes they might even ask me a question like, mom, you might've been burned outside and I'll be like, sure, cause I'm not paying attention, but they go do something.

I actually don't care what it is. As long as they're not bothering dad and I, who were sitting at this table talking every night after dinner, that's been happening for years. It's important. Even if it's five minutes because you guys like Peter was little and he didn't like food very well. So we'd, he'd take his three bites of everything and then hop down and go play because we need to talk.

Not that it's perfect, but it's important. Sometimes we're arguing let's be clear, but we weren't, but we were, we needed to do that because I needed it. I was staying home with them in the morning. We, most of the time then I started working, I needed time to just be an adult.

Yes.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. What about the tit for tat

Renee: like keeping score with parents parenting? Yeah. Yeah. How do you get around that? Here's I don't call it. I don't know. I thought you were going to say this. I'm thinking like tap in, tap out. We definitely do that. Like we would say, Hey, tap in. I need you to.

Not doing this by myself. Do like tap in buddy Toby with me. Or tap out, I got this don't button. So that's our tap in or tap out. I don't need you to deal with this right now. I'm dealing with it and you might turn the table on it. So that's one thing. And then the score keeping of, I did this, you need to do that.

Is that what you mean?

Nancy: Like I've been with them all weekend. I've been with them all week. It's your turn. Or I went golfing last weekend. So I get to you and golfing last weekend. So I get to go to the school.

Renee: I know that's how, yeah, I think that's, I think that you do need your score captures a little bit.

I understand that score keeping, but I think that part of the score keeping has to be how much time do we spend together with these kids? If that, if you're doing so much, score-keeping that you're never together. That's a problem. I know that he, or she might say, I'm going out with my friends. I have been with them.

I need a break and you don't keep that kind of a score. You might get them back. Like someone might feel like I am getting the short end of the stick here and I need some time or, and also it's a call-out that I'm overwhelmed. I'm right. So I don't, I think you might need to keep some tally if you need to, but the tally has to include you guys doing it together.

And I think you'll feel better about doing it apart. If you do some of it together. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. I always say, because I always want them to, I always want it to be like, instead of here's my score, I've been, you've been golfing the past five Sunday, so I get my own Sunday to be like, I'm overwhelmed on Sundays.

Can you help out? Not necessarily because of I've kept score, but because I'm coming to you and sharing what's really happening. And I think. Yeah, we just get so stuck in the score-keeping the justifying, why it's okay. That I need a break instead of just being like, I need a break because I said so, calling out to you

Renee: . Yes that's what I'm trying to help parents too. Sorry, this kind of reminds me of that when you've been with the kids all day and you're entering back in. Two things, oh, come back to another thing with that, the whole enter back in. But when you're entering back in to do positive gossip on purpose instead of negative.

So just to remind yourself, the good things really did happen. Even if he did knock his brothers total block thing down and scream in his face, he did it for 10 good things. And then he happened to do that. So in front of the kids, positive gossip, or if you're calling him and he's out at the golf course, you say, I should tell you some of the awesome things he did today.

It helps you remember that there were really were some good things. And then you won't like dwell on the negative. One thing he did, that was horrible. A lot of families will say like he does all this annoying behavior and I'll say about how many times a day does he do that? They're like two.

Then tell me about the rest of the day is ruling your life. You just written and just paid me to come to your house for two times a day. That really you should pay for two times a day. If you want that to go away. I'm just saying don't dwell on the negative as much because there's some really great things.

Yeah. So that helps with the shift of it. Wasn't the worst day. There was some really bad things that happened. Clearly. I hated some of this stuff, but he's doing pretty good in some other things. So just being more aware of the positive. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And then this is just for parents in terms of kids' anxiety at transitions.

There are there actually, there's a book and it's called the big disconnect and it's by, I can remember her name, but anyways, she the big disconnect. And she talks about that at transitions, we need to add transitions. We need to make sure we don't are not on our phones, that we are looking each other in the eye, especially children.

So when you're picking them up, dropping them off, you just came in, just tag teamed with your husband and you're taking over and he's no phone. They need to see you.

Nancy: we'll put all these books in the show notes that you referenced.

That would be great. Send them to me and I'll link them up in the show notes. So that would be cool. Okay. Renee, we covered a lot of this, man. I know there's a ton more to cover in childbearing, but how can people find out more about you and your services and what you are right.

Renee: Sure. So it's child in balloon child in bloom.com is my website.

And if you go there, you'll see, I do things for schools, churches, businesses, and individual families. So schools call me to train their teachers and come in and observe behaviors in the school and also run parenting programs through the school or PTO churches, call me to do the same kind of thing.

They might have me work one-on-one with a family that's really in need. They might have me do. Programs for parents and programs for teachers. And then businesses do this for through their human resource department. Will have me come and do things like that just to provide, work-life balance programs.

And then Obviously my big, my job really is to go into families homes and coach them, sit with them across the table. Go through this with their family and mind solve problem solve. So we do that. I also do small groups. I'm going to run a, some small groups this summer for like age appropriate, small groups.

Yeah. Parents of toddlers, parents of teenagers. So you can start to see those on my website. I have a newsletter that goes out every month. If you email me, I'll put you on it. Okay. And it's Renee, R E N e@childandbloom.com

Renee: So I love that you did this and Nancy, I just have it so much. Like I hope it's something that helps them, give them an idea. I always say to parents is one thing. Maybe just choose one thing you might do. Yeah.

Nancy: Thank you. Thank you so much for making this so clear and giving great examples and is awesome. Totally awesome. There is so much pressure to be the perfect parent. I hear it all the time from my clients, the pressure to be perfect and be all things to our children. Hopefully this conversation gave you some fresh ideas on how to decrease, not only your anxiety, but your children's.

One of my big takeaways was being honest with ourselves and our children. We tend to convince ourselves we can do all the things and have time for everything when there are only 24 hours in a day. So being honest about what we have time for, what our expectations are and owning when we fail is so important, not just for our children, but ourselves.

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Episode 143: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 1

In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.

In these unprecedented times…

In these uncertain times…

Now more than ever…

UGH. 

The language of 2020 is getting old. 

But it’s getting old because we are running out of words to describe the anxiety, overwhelm, fear, and uncertainty that we are living through right now in July of 2020. 

It’s not just anxiety-provoking for us as adults but also for the next generation. Statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.  

A few months ago, one of my clients asked if I’d seen the Atlantic article about childhood anxiety—they were convinced that they were totally messing up their kids! 

Of course, I read the article and it inspired me to reach out to parenting expert (and childhood friend of mine!) Renee Mattson. She is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. Renee’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. I wanted to find out her thoughts on how we’re impacting our kids and how we can better parent them through these anxious times. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids

• Why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important

• How a lack of time has made over accommodating an even bigger problem and how to approach it

• The idea that our children are craving an adult in the room and too often we treat them like mini-adults

Resources mentioned:

• Child In Bloom

• Child In Bloom on Facebook

• Book: The Explosive Child: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children by Ross Green

• Book: The Happiest Toddler on the Block: How to Eliminate Tantrums and Raise a Patient, Respectful, and Cooperative One- to Four-Year-Old by Harvey Karp

• Book: The Soul of Discipline: The Simplicity Parenting Approach to Warm, Firm, and Calm Guidance- From Toddlers to Teens by Kim John Payne

• The Atlantic Article What Happened to American Childhood?

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Renee: And a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to tie it, spend time tying his shoes more.

We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging.

Nancy: In these unprecedented times in these uncertain times now, more than ever the language of 2020, it's getting a bit old, but it's getting old because we're running out of words to describe the anxiety.

Fear and uncertainty we are living through right now in July of 2020. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. It's not just anxiety provoking for us as adults, but also for the next generation, our children, grandchildren, nieces, and nephews statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.

A few months ago. A client of mine Vox me to say, “did you see the latest Atlantic magazine and the article about childhood anxiety? So depressing. I am totally messing up my kids.“ Of course, I immediately went to find the article, which I will link to in the show notes. It is entitled what happened to American childhood, too many kids show worrying signs of fragility from a very young age.

After reading the article, I was inspired to reach out to a childhood friend of mine and parenting expert, Renee Mattson, to get her thoughts on the article and how we can better parent our children through these anxious times. Renee Mattson is the owner and founder of child and bloom a coaching business for parents and teachers.

She is a mother of three licensed intervention specialists for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach adjunct faculty member at Xavier university and trainer and coach for educational professional develop. In this episode, Renee and I dive into the article, which discusses two concepts, one parents who have anxiety pass it along to their kids.

And two, one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety. And this makes it worse. Renee tells us her perspective on this idea and helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids. How a lack of time has made this over accommodating, even bigger and more of a problem, and how to approach that.

The idea that our children are craving and adult in the room. And too often, we treat them like mini adults and why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important. I am so excited to have Renee Mattson here from child and bloom. And the reason I wanted to bring Renee on is a client of mine brought to me the, an article that was in the Atlantic about called childhood and an anxious age.

And I read the article. And it talks a lot about anxiety in kids. And I thought I am going to bring in my friend and expert in parenting, Renee Mattson. So Renee, thanks for being here.

Renee: Wow. I'm so glad you even thought to think, to call me. That was so great. And I read the same article and my husband actually just sent it to me after you.

Nancy: Thank you. That's awesome. Meant to be.

So it's a long article and it's pretty depressing at the beginning that the statistics are not positive about how anxiety is coming around. So two things that really stuck out to me in this article. Parents who have anxiety tend to pass it along to their kids.

And one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety they do. And that just makes it worse. Do you agree? How do you see this showing up with your clients?

Renee: I definitely agree. And I agree because I see it. I think about it in terms of any skill.

So if you think of dealing with anxiety as a skill, I'm a teacher. So I teach teachers and I teach parents how to teach their children. And when I'm working with children, I'm always thinking about, I need to teach model and practice this lagging skill. So if I were to think about it in a situation where a parent's feeling anxiety and then their child might be going through a little moment, that's bringing some kind of anxiety or suffering.

If I don't put them in the situation, I don't give them a chance to suffer through it and grow if that makes sense. So I'm going to give you like an example. I might give some of my clients. I think about it in terms of Velcro versus tie shoe. So if you have a little guy who doesn't know how to tie his shoes and you need to think about, eventually I'm going to have to teach him.

I could put them in Velcro the rest of his life, but we know if he's wearing Velcro when he's 12. So eventually I'm going to have to pause and teach him. And when I teach him, it's going to be, there's going to be some suffering through that. Discomfort and time and anger and frustration, but I have to do it so he can push through to the next level, same thing with math.

Like I could just give him this flashcards or give them a multiplication chart. And then he will never have to learn his math facts, but I actually have to spend time teaching him. That same thing with social skills. And I also think the same thing with coping skills and a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more, just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to spend time tying his shoes more. We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging skill.

And actually Ross Green calls it lagging skills. He wrote the Explosive Child and I love that he calls it that because I think it's a great word for it

Nancy: . You’re putting anxiety is a lagging, Coping with anxiety could be a lagging skill?

Renee: Yeah. Okay. It might be. I'm not really good at it right now. And I need to be put into situations where I can figure it out now. In the middle of that, I always call it the fire pit in the middle of the anxiety in the middle of tying shoes that's a really bad zone to be teaching him how to tie his shoes.

If I was going to teach him how to tie his shoes or get through tying his shoes, I got to do that before sometime when he's chill and I am chill. not, when I'm trying to get out the door, that's a bad zone. If I'm going to try to teach my child about how to get through their anxiety or their worries, I'm going to have to teach him over here, like before or after? Not in the anxious moment, that's a really bad zone to teach. So my teaching has to come at different times.

Nancy: Got it. It could also be that a child has a lagging skill that ends up causing anxiety. So they might have a lagging skill of social interaction, or how to order at a restaurant to say, , And then they don't know how to do that enough because their parents always do it for them.

Then it builds anxiety for them when they get there.

Renee: For sure. And then the parents continue to accommodate. And would you say, you know what? You didn't sleep in our bed? Cause I know you're having a hard time sleeping at night. Or you can just, we're just not going to go out to eat. We don't go out to eat.

I actually had a mom who said to me, we don't go to the zoo. We don't go to Kings island. We don't go places because he doesn't know he doesn't handle those situations very well. As someone who's trying to coach the parent along is, oh no, we're going to go. We need to go. But but we teach before we go and then we need to walk through it and then have a little plan that goes with it.

Nancy: Same as you would with an adult who was nervous about whatever

Renee: Yeah. Yeah, I know it brings up the mom's anxiety cause maybe she has her own and she's oh, this is making me anxious, but we know that the more I walk through it and you walk through it, I being the child, I walked through it and I recover your fine tuning, my recovery skills.

I need to just, I need to refine it. I need to refine the skill, whether it's tying shoes or getting along with my sibling or understanding that I'm feeling a certain way and I need to do something that's going to help me reboot and recover a little

Nancy: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Part of what they're saying in this article, with the accommodating is that the parents take away any suffering and you're saying suffering is key.

Renee: I know, in fact, when I give my talk about different types of parenting styles do you want me to go ahead and tell you what I might say?

So the parenting styles that I would describe and you've heard them before, but I put them in my own words, which would be, you've got your bossy or strict. I actually even had a young teacher I was working with really recently just said, oh, I don't like the word strict.

So she does definitely doesn't want to be a strict parent or a strict teacher. So you've got that style. That's going to be the, my way or the highway. We're not negotiating no discussion. It is what it is. Suck it up parent. And then you've got, and I would call this on the other side, you've got the polite parent permissive or polite parent.

And by the way, the bossy parents going to be, because I said so, which you've heard that before I'm sure John Rosemond is one of the parenting experts that would say, because I'd BISS because I said so.

Nancy: that, that's the reason, that's good enough

Renee: that’s enough for the bossy instruct parent.

Because I said so, and then the other side of that would be the polite or permissive. And I say polite because it's usually suggesting would you like to get in the grocery cart? Which is a suggestion and usually they're bent down, like you're in charge or would you like to do this? Would you like to put your coat on?

Would you like to come outside? And so it's lots of asking and suggesting they're being very polite. They might say it's time to eat dinner. Okay? And they'll tack on a little, okay. At the end. Is that okay? And sometimes get a no out of that. So that's that polite permissive zone.

There's a lots of negotiation, lots of discussion and lots of connection.

Nancy: And then is there a parenting like middle guru who wants you to go there?

Renee: I would say that kind of goes with more of the relationship building. I'm not going to name a name of the person, but It's all about the relationship. And I am not saying that it's not about the relationship because I'd like to have you meet right in the middle of this, instead of because I said so. Because you said which is what I would call permissive. I'm going to go into the middle zone, which I think most people would agree if they could really think about that.

You got to be in the middle of it. But I also need you to lean towards, because I said so okay. because you're the adult in the room. We've been there, done that. And you are the one who has, to make the rules. If that makes sense, because if I'm three years old and I realized I'm in charge, that makes me very happy.

It makes me very anxious. So in the middle zone it's because I said so, but I put L with it BLISS because you love them. So instead of, because I said, because you love them enough to connect connect, connect, connect and I usually say connect four time. So you do have to be polite and nice to them sometimes, but you have to connect to them.

You have to connect four times so that you can correct the problem with the permissive imply they really struggle with correcting.

Nancy: So what does connecting look like?

Renee: Connecting looks like I see you. Okay. I see you. I hear you. I know you. I like you. I actually really like you and I like to hang out with you and I want to be with you.

Let's do something together. I see what you need. I can feel what you feel. So it's I see you. I hear you. I feel you. I know you and I like you. So that's really important, but just as important, if not more is the correction side of this, because you have to decide what the rules are.

Nancy: , For the record, not a parent here. What about the common practice I had seen. was set a timer, like we're going to leave in to give them advanced warning. We're going to leave in two minutes and I'll set a timer for two minutes. where does that lie?

Renee:

Okay. That happens a lot, obviously. And I usually say parents well, first of all, kids don't really have a very good sense of time. So using time, isn't going to be your friend. That's not. That's not going to be so great, but kids are usually more concrete. So you're going to say, are you going to, and they want some pounds, kids want power.

So if you tell me two minutes, I'm like, no, I don't want to leave in two minutes. Or I want to have some control in this. You, as the parent tried to set the rules, remember you are the author of the rules. So that's that because I said, so we are leaving. We are going to leave. And when we leave, we're going to go do this next thing that we want to do or need to do.

So we see the progression. We are leaving. I wonder if we should leave in one minute or two minutes, if you want to use time, literally giving them some choice within the rule box. And this is better than time should we go down the slide 10 times or two times?

I want to go down 10. That's fine. Let's go down 10 times and then we are leaving. So I gave you a window of control. I hear you. You love the slide. I see. You're having fun. I know you, we got to go I'm in the author of the rules. We're not going to do it a hundred more times just because you want to, when you're too sad to leave, everybody's sad to leave.

In fact, we might even say the guy who wrote the Happiest toddler on the block, and I wish I could remember his name. He always says, you need to say I see you're sad, sad, sad, sad. You're mad, mad, mad,. And it's just for toddler, you would say that, but I might even say that with an 11 year old, like I see you.

You're sad. Dude. You're really sad. I'm sad too. It's fun. This is awesome. Don't forget. We want to come back and do this again, but we got to go. So what do you want to do now? You choose your items. You want to go down two times or 10 times if he says I'm not going down. I don't. I want to go down 12.

Okay. Then I guess I'll choose 10. Because we're going. Because I said between two and 10. Okay. He says neither I'm going down seven! Fine, let's go. That's right. Sometimes I'll have meet with some parents that are really like, want to be in control. They'll say I said two or 10, right? Like we're glad it's in the middle.

, why are you starting a second layer battle here?

. I think it's usually about control for parents. They just think I should be in control. I should be in charge. And I said, so that's that whole, because I said so, and with the parenting, the most anxiety ridden parenting thing that you can do for the child is that you try to be permissive and polite and you're at the grocery store and you're asking him to get in the cart. Would you like to get in the cart? And he doesn't want to get in the cart and, he needs to be in the cart and you're not listening to your gut enough to say this kid needs to be in a cart.

And then you flip over and flip out into the because I said mode. You are trying to be all permissive and polite and would you want to, and please get in and then you lose your mind and you've jumped way over here. And what if you were just in the middle, which is clear, cut. Matter of fact, I love you.

You love me in the cart. Let's go hop in. 1 2, 3. Oh, I see you just like a rocket ship in the cart. Let's go very confident and clear about it. Like it's no big deal. We're going to get in the cart and go. Yeah, that's the safe zone. And I'm going to tell you, that's why your kids feel really safe with their teachers at school.

Because the very best teachers I work with are right there. They're loving and clear

Nancy: Which is any good boundaries. The thing is, I will say the majority of my clients who have a lot of anxiety come from homes where they had to do a lot of mind reading, where they had to figure out what the rules were because their parents weren't telling them either because of addiction or they just didn't care or, whatever, or they're busy with their own stuff.

Or they were, our generation doesn't have a lot of super permissive parents. But I, so I could see why it's so high, because now we're getting into the permissive parenting and that's unknowingly you're putting your three-year-old in charge, causing them to have anxiety.

Like they have to do more mind reading to figure out what's the right answer here.

Renee: And there's a book called the soul of discipline from Kim, John Payne. I'm actually doing a book club on it at the end of the month in May. And I love it. He talks about it children are pinging like a submarine. Like just tell me where's the boundary.

Tell me I got to find my way of pinging through the water, like a submarine, but I'm trying to figure this out here. What can I do? What's the rule today? I thought the rule was this and I'm in charge of this. And that is very scary. But at school, oh, I know that. We stand in a line. We walked down the hall.

I sit here. Oh no, they'll tell you the rules. They'll say, oh no, we have to do it this way. And that makes me feel safe. And so they're begging for mom and dad just to tell him the go to behaviors. What I taught, tell me the go behavior. Mommy. Tell me exactly what I need to do. And start focusing on what I don't need to do.

Stop it, quit it don't, if you put all your energy in the stop behaviors and you never teach the go behaviors, the child is confused. But if you clearly talk about this as what we can do, this is what we do. This is how we function and we teach it and we model it and we practice it and you set them out to go do it.

Then I feel success because even if I made a little bit of success, You named it. That's who I am. I'm the guy who survived. I'm the guy who recovered. I'm the guy who I was really sad and upset, but I made it through. And then I have that build self-confidence. And I think that parents who are trying to get their kids to be in charge and let them make all those choices and have agency, like they get to, I get to be in charge.

They are thinking they're doing it for self-esteem and it's right. Because this is my experience. It's just my experience. I think they're, they are watching the fact that it's just scary for kids. But if I give you a boundaries and you get choices within the boundaries, it feels so safe.

And then I feel confident that I can do this and I can function. I have a really good day. That

Nancy: makes a lot of sense. So how did you get into this work?

Renee: So I'm a teacher for, so first of all, I babysat forever. I, that was what I did. 15 year old. And then I nannied all through college while I was studying to be a teacher.

I was a regular ed teacher, and then I decided I really loved to go into the regular ed classroom and zero in on, why does this guy learn differently? And what's he doing that makes his day different. And then I started to look at behaviors and why is this guy behaving differently? He is what's going on with him.

So that kind of, I became a special educator and I worked in special education with behavior and learning. In public schools in Ohio. And then I did I stayed home with my own children and I have three kids. I have a college student, I have a high schooler and I have a sixth grader. And while I was staying home with him, especially in the beginning, I was putting these things to use going, oh, the same thing I did in my classroom, I taught severe behaviors.

And one of the classrooms that I worked with kids with the most severe behaviors you could ever imagine. And I, when I was working with them, I was always telling them in, when I first got the job, I was young and naive and telling them to stop it, quit kids who that kid cuss me out or whatever my aide in the classroom said, Renee, you're never catching them being good.

And you never finding when they recovered oh, you're right. I'm so busy telling him this guy, he's not doing it right. That I never looked over here at these guys who were actually functioning or the one time we'll do it. So it helped me to really start to focus on the functioning behaviors.

Then I started teaching teachers at Xavier university. And when I did that, they asked if one of us would, might want to be a parent coach or get trained in it because we have to coach our special ed ma moms and dads who have children with special needs on how we do things at school. Why don't we coach you at home?

How to do that. And then we're doing this. There we go. So 2012 started doing this independently.

Nancy: Okay. And that's when Child in bloom came around?

Renee: Yes! And I still teach teachers Xavier. So still teach a little bit.

Nancy: So thanks want to give people a little hint of your background there. One reason the article gave for why parents accommodate and I know this is so true is lack of time and the amazing thing. I was blown away in the article by how parents are accommodating from too, because the kids, I didn't want to be alone to not let the kids didn't want to go upstairs by himself. So the parents would constantly go upstairs and they were just accommodating all their fears I guess I would say. And cause it's easier for them to accommodate rather than to let them give the time for the kid to figure it out. So I know that's a real problem. How do you see that playing out? And do you have any tips for changing that?

Renee: So I definitely see it playing out and I know that a lot of parents are really stressed on time. A lot of them. That's huge. And so if they're trying to get out the door in the morning, they just don't have time to be dealing with the behavior.

Just give him what he wants. So he doesn't cry. Make him happy, cut the sandwich and whatever shape he needs it in. And so we do ask what's accommodating, like he has to have a sandwich cut. This, the carrot has to be on the right-hand side. He has to have a juice.

It's still two thirds, not one half filled, like literally that's real. That's definitely happening. And so yeah, it goes to grandma's house and grandma's no, I'm not cutting your sandwich Like everybody else eats it and he's going to have an anxiety meltdown. So what would be best is if when you note, I like.

You're thinking of yourself as you're not just a parent, you're a teacher and good teachers. When they see their kids in process, they note, they take note like, Ooh, that's something I got to teach. This is something that is working for him. So instead of getting like dramatic about it in the moment, think this is a teachable moment.

And I don't teach in the moment I teach later. So instead of thinking bad kid, bad behavior, bad situation. Ha we have a problem. I usually draw a circle for parents and I say, let's put all the awesome things about your child in that circle. Then let's draw a really tight square around the circle and wherever the circle bumps up against the square is where your child's bumps up against the world.

And so you might want to cut that in within whatever perfect shape, but he's going to bump up against the world and they're not going to have that cookie cutter. Shape there it's there. And so that's a function problem. And so it's just a little note to self. We got to work on that. So whatever that little, wherever it bumps up against the square that's a teaching I got to teach and I got a model.

And when I say teach, I usually say, teach outside of the moment and teach with 5 words at a time. So five words and really awkward pause that keeps your anxiety down and it keeps their processing up. So less words. So in outside of the moment, when I started to teach, I might say, so you love to have sandwiches cut in fancy shapes.

I do too, but grandma doesn't have those shapes. Let's draw it out. Let's draw our house. In grandma's house. So we teach outside of the moment we teach with less words, we teach with more pictures. I'm literally going to draw it out. Here's our house. Here's grandma's house. What's the difference? What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house?

What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house at six words, two minutes. What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house? We don't have anything. So that's like really good teachers know how to talk that way. And the compassion study down. It's like we're back in kindergarten and we all feel so safe.

What a mom might do. Cause she's getting anxious about you can't do this from your grandma's house, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, the kid only heard the first three to five calm words. You said she, they missed the paragraph. So if you find yourself talking in paragraphs three to five words with a very weird and awkward, purposeful, And pictures.

Now you're going to say, you're not going to draw a picture for a 13 year old.. You're going to draw picture for a 13 year old and you going to put two, a piece of paper between you at least, and paper as a buffer to be like, Hey, look, let's draw this out. Let me just show this to you. It doesn't have to be stick figures.

Like you might do it with your little one, but it would be like, let me chart this for you. Let me show you when you choose this you also choose this and this and this. So you choose to cheat on your test you also choose to go to the principal and tell them this. And you also do this, and I guess you choose this, but if you choose this, you choose to get the grade you get, and we love you anyway. How about that?

And we love you anyway, on the top one, two. How about that? So I might literally draw that out like a chart, or I might like, even with my college students say, Hey, you could take a piece of paper and you draw out what you want. I'll draw out what I want. Come back with their paper and we'll talk about this.

The paper becomes a buffer, so you don't have to look me in the eye.

Nancy: Oh, that makes a ton of sense.

Renee: I had to do that with my severe behavior kids because they never wanted to look me in the eye. So it's where it comes from, but it works all ages. So teach outside of the moment, teach with less words, teach with more pictures, and then you have to put them in the situation, like you said earlier, where they have to practice.

You got to take them to their friend's house so you can practice the social skill. They just learned, you got to go to grandmas and practice what we learned. We learned how we're going to respond when she gives us sandwiches that cut like a Teddy bear. What are we going to do? something like that

Nancy: . So do you go through it right before you go to grandma's?

Renee: Yeah. I probably would.

Let's see what we're going to do and let's see if you can do it. And we're going to probably talk to grandma about it too, and say, Hey, we've got a new thing here and maybe, or not, if you can't talk to it, if it's your mother-in-law, you may not be able to talk to her about that.

But they're going to have to talk it through. Yeah, definitely. And we're going to come out on the other side with we made a little bit of progress. You were mad and you screamed and you threw the carrot across the floor, but you came back and you join the dinner table. Even if you didn't do that you came with her like, so you're going to find the smallest, tiny bits of progress.

And know that's who you are. You are a survivor.

Nancy: That's I like that. So what about, and I know a big problem for parents is the co-sleeping. And I know there's a lot of like hardcore fans of co-sleeping, there's a lot of written about the family bed and, I know nothing about parenting, but I know about the family bed.

Tell me like, and as I know, some parents like that, even as I have as clients that are like, they're trying to break that, how do you do that, cause that is a major stressor. A because the kid gets it so upset, because the parent wants to feel needed by comforting, comforting the kid and being there for the kid.

Like we still joke. I can remember walking into my dad, my parents bedroom. And you always went to my dad. He was the one that woke up and I would stay, I can envision myself standing there and trying to wake him up. And my dad was like this big burly man. Jump up out of bed, he'd be like,” What’s going on?!” and I would be like, I had a nightmare and I still wanted to crawl into bed with him.

That was the end game that I wanted, but it would be like, okay, we got to get a drink of water. We got to go to the bathroom. And he would go walk with me to my bathroom while I did that. And then he would tuck me in and that would be it like, yeah, there might be a, sorry, you had a nightmare, but there was no like come into bed or sleep on the floor next to me, it was, you go this is our room.

And that is your room. And, neither shall the two meet.

Renee: if he may have done that sometimes. And sometimes didn't do it. You would have been more confused. At least you knew the boundary. That's what my gut says. Which I know a lot of people will disagree with it, but I feel like at least you felt safe.

And I guess I know now if he could cuddle with you and outside of the moment, like right then might not have been the best time to cuddle with you. It might've been during the day to recap it a little like how that happened last night, that's a thing it's real. You felt that way. So what are we going to do to make us feel safe?

Or how could we even meet in the middle on that? But we can't have all that conversation at nighttime. Night time is the worst time to have a big conversation. So I wouldn't ever suggest that you do that, but to be very confident and I'm confident in you, you're confident in me. I'll walk you to your bed.

I'll make you feel safe. What light should we turn on tonight? We'll talk about it in the morning, You're safe. You're okay. And you can handle it, which are the three words that you would use with any traumatized kid you're safe you’re ok, and we can handle this. We can do this, but not to downplay that they're upset, but I hear you, it sounds like you're upset.

We need to go to bed and what can I do for you right here? But if to go back to the move, what I see is a lot of, this is where it comes from with the bed. When you were nursing a baby you're being told feed on demand. Feed on demand and you have to feed on demand.

If you're nursing, you got to feed when that baby is hungry, even if it's not your schedule, you feed on demand. And I love it. I think that's exactly what you need to do.. No doubt about it. I think it's a slippery slope to everything on demand.

Because if we don't stop there with the feed on demand, we could easily slip into he really just wants to sleep in our bed with us every night. He really wants to go to school in his pajamas. That's what he wants. He really wants to wear his rain boots and princess costume to the store to church or whatever.

But he really wants to do this and the really wants turn into, he was ruling all the things because we really don't want him to suffer. And when he can learn, oh, I see that you love to wear your princess costume with your rain boots. I love that you love that. This is where we can do this.

Let's make a zone where we do this. And then this is the zone where we don't doesn't mean we don't love it still. It's just not where we do it. So let's, I hear you. I see you. I know what you want and I know what you love, and I want to build it into our life, but this is not where we're going to do it.

Cause I'm the boss. If that makes sense. All right. I'm in charge. I have to be in, I have to be in charge of that. Now. Some people will disagree obviously, and that's fine, but I think, but I really, truly believe you just have to be careful on the slippery slope of everything onto me.

Nancy: That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. So what do you do when your kid is sick? Cause in the article I appreciated, it said the parents have become the comforter instead of the Teddy bear. I thought that was such a great line.

Renee: Yeah, good. Keep going wherever you go with that.

Nancy: So I, yeah, if your kid is really upset and it's, then your anxiety is increasing as you're hearing them being upset, how do you handle it?

Renee: The first time it happens I think you really do need to be there for them. You need to just sit in it with them. Let's just sit here in it. And I really am fine with kids sitting in it, but we're just going to sit here. And I might have can sit on my lap in this. I might let you give you this big squeezy hug in this. I might, but then I also am in, remember I'm thinking teachable moment here. I got to teach. I'm going to have to teach my teacher hats coming on. Cause this is a moment. It's just a moment. It's just a behavior. It's just a situation. It's not who he is. It's not going to be who he is 20 years from now when we go there very quickly.

Oh, he doesn't like school. He'll never like school. If I go into the whole. And make this a story. The story will repeat if I just sit in it and not, don't make a lot of language around it, not a lot of emotion around it and just be, I'll be better. Everybody will be a little better off. And I teach later when everybody's calmed down.

I call that the fire pit, when you're in the fire pit, there's you just need to keep people safe and calm and function. Less words, way less words. So I see, like parents will end that fire pit be like, oh, why do you feel this way? Get rid of why? Just take Why out of your mind in that zone.

Like, why are you feeling this way? What's your problem? What were you thinking? None of those three questions are gone. Be a detective, not a psycho analyzer. Like we're going to detect this. Who, what, when. What before, what, after what know, like those kind of fact-finding questions to bring us back down to where, when, how, where are we right now?

But not why here, because why we can deal with later. If we get into the why here, there's always a really good reason to get out of your bed and come to mind. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Nancy: Can you say what happened?

Renee: Oh, did you hear a sound? Did you hear a sound? Oh, I think too.

Let's look out the window. What, where, when, how many times, like we're fact finding, we're not, oh my gosh. Are you nervous? Why do you want to sleep with mommy? And here's the thing you're in the middle of sleeping. So you're less likely to be functioning yourself very well. And I will tell you this really quickly when it comes to sleep issues, because people have me come to their house a lot and help them like super nanny style.

When I come to the house, they asked me to come to their house and I do, and they say, I want you to come and sit with us through bedtime. I'll say that's fine. I definitely will do that. I will come to your house at night time. I'll sit on your master bed and wait for him to get back in there. And we will go through the whole process of getting into staying in his room and all of that, but we're not going to do that until we've done it during the day because behaviors usually reflect daytime, need daytime, need for boundary, daytime, need for systems daytime need for teaching.

And the data is usually if you're having issues at night time, you also have some issues during the day and all of the dates, the nighttime ones first is a challenge when we haven't really put boundaries in order and system and teaching during the day. So let's work on when we have energy first and then and sometimes those nighttime behaviors go away because they start to feel safe with the rules and boundaries during the day, and set the rules and the boundary at night flow a little bit better.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. But I'd like to how you say, cause I, even as adults, I would, I hate when people say why like it, just that, that gets you into justifying. Why you know that it's okay to feel that way. Like it's putting it on the person to justify and.

But in a sense, it's getting them all hopped up. What's going on? Why are you feeling this way, blah, instead of bringing this, the calming the situation.

Renee: Yeah. It's just the facts. It's just, it is what it is. Not that it's bad or good. It's just like a detective. I don't, I always say to my parents that I work with no detectives walking into a crime scene saying, why did you rob the bank?

You're not ever going to say that because there's a really good reason to rob a bank. And so I didn't have any money in my bank account. I needed some money oh no, it's going to be a who, what, when, where, what happened first? What happened second? Are we safe? Are we okay? Can we handle, it's going to be very factual.

My husband would say that Renee, that means you're very cold, not cold. I'm just clear. I like you, you like me, the behavior stinks. Let's get rid of it. Like it's just behavior. It's just a thing. It has nothing to do with how much I love you or how much you love me, but I can't get emotional about it.

You got to cut loose from the emotions.

Nancy: Yeah. because like I had a friend of mine actually, who, whose daughter was really nervous. They had lost a couple, a couple of extended relatives had died.. And so the daughter was really afraid. She was going to lose mom and dad, didn't want them to leave.

And it was this whole big thing. And so they were doing like all this anxiety stuff, like tapping and visualizing it on a cloud and. All this stuff to help her. And I said, have you ever said to her? And she was like 10 at the time. And I said in that eight to 10, and I said, have you ever said to her, what would it be like if mommy and daddy, if something happened to us, nd she was like, oh my gosh, no.

Because then that's really addressing it. But that's what she's nervous about. Let's put that out on the table and talk about with, what that feels like, rather than trying to hide it with tapping and all this other stuff.

Renee:

Let's just put it on the table. It doesn't mean it's true. So actually I think what a lot of the families that when I started working with us, I actually started working. Because I felt like I saw a lot of families that were like, not even able to say that a behavior issue. Say that an anxiety moment exists.

Oh no. If I say it, then that means I don't love him. If I say his behavior is annoying, if I see his behaviors obnoxious, if I say his behavior is anything then I don't love him. But I'm just like, just say it, just put it on your cheek. What are you worried about? That's what you were saying with anxiety.

What is it? If we can name it, then it's a thing. And then I can be like, okay, that's a thing that exists. And now I need to think about it as to what are the opposites of those things? What are the things I can control, I guess maybe what's the go behaviors. Would I say stop behaviors over here? That would be hurting or fussing or disrespect kind of behaviors.

And then the go behaviors are those, what's the next steps? What are the things I can do to function a little bit better through this? I'm still going to feel, but what am I going to do differently? And those are the good behaviors that have to be taught modeling.

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I think that then, because for that example I gave of, what, if my parents die, she's already thinking that.

Yeah. So anytime the parents are like, let's not go there. Then she's oh, then she doesn't trust herself. Because it's coming up for her. That's a real thing, but her parents are constantly dismissing it from her too, to go into tapping or to avoid it. And then she doesn't learn how to soothe when that comes up, because I, this is how I feel, but I don't need to get wrapped up in that.

That's not a whole huge big thing. And now I just need to know how I'm going to react and choose my go behavior

Renee: And your dad walking you back to your bed is that's very, it goes right there with it. It's a clear thing. You were worried about something in your room. You had a nightmare. It existed.

And he's okay, sounds like it existed. Let's go back. Let's deal with it. In the next day, if he talked it through with you, it's real. And let's talk about it. Let's put it on the paper and see what we can do about it. Yeah.

Nancy: I was just highlighting that. Like you put it back on the paper

Renee: That’s the balance between go to your bed because I said so, and just stay in mommy's bed because I don't want to see you crying. It's in the middle of it's time to go to bed because I said so, and we do have to go to bed because we have school in the morning or whatever we do are going to bed. You are safe, you are okay. And we can handle this, but when we see each other tomorrow, we'll talk it through or come up with a plan.

Can I make you feel safe? And now as much as I can in your space and we'll talk about it.

Nancy: Because it is funny. I still get up. If I have a nightmare, I still get up, go to the bathroom, get a glass of water.

Renee: That was your safety routine.

Nancy: My mom and I will still laugh about that because she'll say, yeah, I get up. I go to the, I get a glass of water.

I go to the bathroom. I think of your dad.

Renee: well, coping skills. And that's what all that matters is that she has a routine. You had a function. That's a very functioning normal way to handle it. Not normal. You know what I mean? Like just typical like you, that you're going to be able to live with someone and do that.

And that's what the goal is to get them to live with someone.

Nancy: He never did the, there was no conversation the next day for the record,

Renee: No parents knew how to do that, by the way, no parents,

Nancy: but in its way it normalized it's okay that you're feeling this way. And because you're feeling this way, this is what we do to solve that.

We go to the bathroom, we go to glass of water and I tuck you in. That does not happen normal. That's special because you're hurting.

Renee: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And you learned that from him regularly because it was a system and that's what gives you. Kids are really begging for there. Begging for, just give me a system.

I need this, and especially I work with a lot of kids with ADHD and anxiety, and sometimes I've seen things that seem like they go hand in hand, they just need. I just need a boundary. In fact, they need more boundaries, not less. So a lot of my families I work with a child with ADHD will say he has ADHD, so we don't really try to do any rules.

We know how his brain works. I'm like, oh no, he's the guy who needs more rules. He needs more, or boundaries, more systems. His brain doesn't make the system, his brain doesn't go with the system. He needs an external system because he doesn't. And maybe with your anxiety in the middle of the night, you didn't have an internal system that knew what to do.

You needed your dad to give you an external one.

Nancy: I absolutely loved this conversation with Renee. She provides so many concrete suggestions and examples. In fact, we had so much information. We had to divide this episode into two parts. Part two will be here next week.

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Episode 142: Finding Freedom Through Our Personal Stories

In today’s episode, I am talking with Hillary Rea, storyteller, podcaster, and founder of Tell Me a Story about the stories we tell ourselves.

In the self-help/personal development world, the idea of stories—and the stories we tell ourselves—is seen as a negative thing. 

The message is: if we were better people, then we would know all of our “stories”—and if we are honest about them, they wouldn’t get in our way and hold us back from living our full potential. 

Instead, we could change our limiting beliefs by simply “changing the story.” 

That phrase drives me crazy. As if it’s that easy to change your story! 

And while the self-help world might portray stories as a challenge to overcome or as an opportunity to rewrite, I have always seen it differently: stories are what make us the amazing, unique humans that we are. 

Today, I’m so excited to introduce Hillary Rea to you. She is a storyteller by trade and has a refreshingly different take on the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories we tell about ourselves to others, and the stories that others tell about us. 

Hillary is the founder of Tell Me A Story, a full-service communication consulting business that trains entrepreneurs, leaders, and change-makers to use the art of storytelling as a powerful communication tool. She is also the producer and host of Rashomon, a narrative storytelling podcast in which one family shares every side of the same story.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our stories play a role in our lives and how Hillary has found that telling them NOT changing them is how we find freedom

• How telling our stories helps us build self-loyalty which is key to dealing with our high functioning anxiety

• Her love of storytelling and why it is so important to her and the larger world

• What Joseph Campbell’s Hero Journey might be lacking in and what Hillary teaches about the 5 facets of storytelling

Resources mentioned:

• tellmeastory.info

• Join the Speak Up Newsletter

• Rashomon Podcast

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Hillary: I've really come to the realization that there's stories we tell ourselves. And there are the stories that other people tell about us or on our behalf. And there are the stories we tell others. And I think that the more we can find alignment between those three different types of stories that are told that's where the freedom

Nancy: in the self-help personal development world, the idea of stories and the stories we tell ourselves is seen as a negative thing.

The messages, if we were better people than we would already know all of our stories. And when we're honest about the stories, they won't get in our way and hold us back. But my guest today, Hillary Rea, a storyteller by trade has a refreshing different take on storytelling and the stories we tell ourselves.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

So you might be wondering what does storytelling have to do with high functioning anxiety? I'm so glad you asked the phrase, change your story has always driven me crazy. We're told to change our limiting beliefs by changing our story as if it's that easy to just poof change your story and stories are what make us the unique, amazing human beings. We are. This is why I was so excited when Hillary and I struck up a conversation about this very topic, and then she asked if she could come on the show.

And I was like, yes, this conversation is going to be awesome. From her first time, performing standup comedy to winning a moth story slam to realizing the power of storytelling in the workplace. Hillary Rea is an expert in the art of using personal experience to build trust, inspire, and help people understand each other.

On a deeper level. Hillary is a graduate of New York University Steinhardt school with a bachelor of music in vocal performance and holds a certificate in audio documentary from duke university center for documentary studies. She's also the producer and host of Rashomon a narrative storytelling podcast in which one, family shares every side of the same story.

Whether you're looking to grow your personal or professional network need to effectively tell the story of your new business or simply need to boost your confidence, Hillary and her team at tell me a story will help you find your voice and share your unique story with honesty and passion.

In this episode, Hillary and I talk about how our stories play a role in our lives. And how Hillary has found that telling them not changing them is how we find freedom. How telling our stories helps us build self loyalty, which is key to dealing with our high-functioning anxiety. Hilary's love of storytelling and why it is so important to her and the larger world and why Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, which we've all heard might be lacking.

And what Hillary teaches about the five facets of storytelling. Okay. I am so excited today to have Hillary Ray here to talk to us about storytelling. Welcome Hillary.

Hillary: Thanks Nancy. I'm really happy to be here.

Nancy: So Hillary reached out to me after we'd had a conversation on a forum about the use of the term stories.

When it comes to negative things, we tell ourselves so often in the self-help world, we hear that phrase. Just change your story. And if you've been following me for awhile, you know what, that, that drives me crazy. And it turns out it also drives Hillary crazy as well. And she's actually a storytelling expert.

So that makes me feel even better that it drives me crazy. So I wanted to bring her on to talk about that concept and a few others related to the stories we tell ourselves. So Hillary, given that introduction, how do our stories play a role in our lives? And how have you found that telling them is how we can find freedom?

Hillary: Yeah. So as I've been thinking a lot about this, I would say over the last handful of months, and then every time I do read or see a social media post saying, change your story, or it's all the stories we're telling ourselves, I get fired up. So I've really come to the realization that there's stories we tell ourselves.

And there are the stories that other people about us or on our behalf. And there are the stories we tell others. And I think that the more we can find alignment between those three different types of stories that are told that's where the freedom lies. And I think the one that we should really focus on is not the story we tell ourself, but the story we tell other people and ultimately that will lead to that reframe the internal narrative that so many self-help people talk about and is the reason behind a lot of our problems.

Like stories that we, and I'm doing air quotes,, like the diagnosis is always, oh, your problem is because of the story you're telling yourself. And yeah, I just don't think necessarily that those are always stories or real stories. And then I think if we focus on the story, we tell other people that will lead to a better story that we tell ourselves and an actual story that we're telling ourselves versus this idea of a story.

Nancy: Okay. So like in the forum, in this thing we were talking about, it was the idea of playing small and the concept was, that's a story we tell ourselves to play small. So using that example, Walk us through what you're talking about, if that's okay.

Hillary: Sure. So I'm going to just put myself in the shoes of that feeling.

So I'm, I feel like I'm playing small or I'm not showing up in the world, whether that's personally professionally on the internet. So I must be small and there's nothing I can do about it, or it feels safe to be small. So I'm just going to stay smaller. So to me, that's not a story to me, that's an idea or an emotional state or sometimes a cultural implication.

It's an external thing that I'm thinking is happening to me this feeling of being small. So yes, I could maybe work with a therapist or work with a coach and kind of dig into that and see what stories or life experiences I had that got me to that feeling of small. Again, this is theoretical me.

I don't have, I've felt small in my life. I'm not saying I've never felt small, but I would then have to find, okay, maybe I got teased in second grade and I can dive deeper into that story and go into specific details, create the beginning, middle, and end around that. And maybe that will then help me to reframe that idea of being small and take the steps to being bigger or to taking up space in the world.

However, I think just by putting myself out there. So I don't, I'm trying to figure out the best way to explain it because it's not, obviously there's a lot of layers to feeling small, but if I am thinking of a story that I want to share with someone else, whether that's one person or. For example, I run a company.

So a story, I want to share on my newsletter each week or a story that I want to share when I'm hosting a live storytelling event. If I can think of that story and the purpose for why I want to share it with people and craft the beginning, middle and end of that experience, I want to share and bring it to life in a super fun and engaging way with lots of details.

And I like to infuse humor, things like that. Then by sharing that story with my audience, whether that's an audience of one or an audience of many, I'm taking a space and I'm putting myself out there and there's this feeling that happens when you do that. And when there is an audience on the other side, listening to you, even if you can't see them or hear them, that gives you that freedom and helps you I don't know. Yeah. Take up space without being like, hello world. I'm here. Dad's handing your way through life. If that's not your style. I hope that makes sense.

Nancy: So you discover through therapy or whatever that, the story, the limiting belief of I'm small, that story comes from something that happened in childhood, perhaps in your example that you made up, then that's the story.

That's the story that when we share to the audience of one or a hundred in person or not, that then starts flushing out the problem.

Hillary:. Yes. But I would like to add that it is in our power to share what stories we want to share so that doesn't have to be the story you would tell your audience.

And I think I can give an example from. I can put together a real life example and see if this go thread. So there was always this lore and it did happen to me, but I dwelled on it since the age of 12 that I was at a friend's house hanging out in her room. So at 12, I liked to wear a lot of vinyl.

So I had a vinyl dress. I had vinyl pants, I had vinyl platform shoes. I had silver mini skirt. I looked like a nineties, future punk rocker. And I was obsessed with clothes. I was obsessed with curating these outfits and I wasn't wearing a vinyl dress the day that this happened, but I owned this vinyl dress that I wore to school.

And I was at a friend's house. And her mom also happened to be a teacher at this very small school that we went to. And an adult friend of her mom was there. And so they peeked their heads into the door of my friend's room and we're sitting there hanging out and the mom's friend wanted to say hi, The daughter.

And then the mom introduced me and said, this is Hillary. She likes to wear trash bags.

Nancy: Oh ,My!

Hillary:. it was this little moment, that I know what she was getting at. It was a vinyl dress that I wore to school, but it wasn't trash bags. But for some reason I let that statement haunt me for forever. Since that happened and I still care a lot about clothing, I'm still very passionate about fashion.

And I think any time I'm less willing to take those fashion risks as an adult. It's because I can hear that voice or hear that replay, that specific experience back in my mind, however, a couple of months ago I purchased this rainbow knit sweater on the internet. I fell in love with it. It was on sale.

It was like this big oversized multi-colored striped sweater. And I remember I wanted to wear it. Like on a date with my boyfriend and in my head, I got that little voice. Like she wears trashbags voice and I didn't put it on. I just wore like gray, which is also my go to.

And then I posted about it on social media. And I posted about it on my company, social media, because of it was a story connected to fashion and it was a story connected to my identity and a story about what happened when I did actually wear that sweater. How did I feel? I heard that story with an audience and not only did people respond in the Instagram post, but I also like the next time I was in an in-person event with people that had read that Instagram posts, they brought up the sweater and said that had made them think of a coat. They had that they were too scared to wear like a very surface level thing, but in sharing a version of the story, that made sense for me, that made me feel good about myself.

I was able to connect with my audience and also rewrite that feeling of she wears trash bags.

Nancy: So it wasn't sharing the story of the woman who said she wears trash bags. It was sharing the story of how you felt wearing debating about the rainbow sweater and then eventually wearing it.

Hillary: Yes. I might have mentioned it in passing, but that, wasn't the main point of the story at all,

Nancy: which is fascinating because.

I assume like in the example I gave, it was the original story, but that has nothing to do with it. In storytelling, in healing, these stories, it's telling the story at a variety of places. In the story, I'm saying a variety of places of how that story makes you feel.

Hillary: Yeah. I guess to clarify, I think it is okay if you are able to dig deep and find the stories underneath the self-limiting belief and it, and by story, it has a beginning, middle and end, and you're sharing your perspective either in the moment when it happened to you or as you remember it.

Now, I think sharing that story is okay. Especially if it's like a confidant or someone you care about deeply or a therapist or a coach or things like that. But I think that there's this pressure, especially in when in a leadership role or when running your own business, either how you represent yourself on social media or how you represent yourself in interpersonal communication, that there's this pressure that you have to share those deepest, darkest woundy story.

And honestly, and I think that fear holds people back from sharing anything at all, or holds people back from trusting that they, as a human being are enough and okay and worth taking up space and not being small. And so my, and what I believe in how I work with people is okay, yes. Maybe those stories are there, but what are the stories that you feel most passionate about telling?

And that doesn't mean it has to be like a happy, joyful story, but what are the stories that align with who you are, what you do and why you do it and all of the, your vision and values and everything, like finding alignment between the story you tell and who you are as a human being.

Nancy: So it's not about dwelling in the stories, the negative stories that as you say, aren't stories, because they don't have a beginning and a middle and an end, but concentrating on what's the story that serves not even serves me.

Hillary: I think it is the story that serves you.

Nancy: Is it serves? Okay.

Hillary: I think it’s serves because the question I always ask is what story serves me in the present moment.

Nancy: Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. Because I was like serves me to me, sounded like a spin on it, like I'm going to put a positive spin on it, but that isn't how you're using serves.

Hillary: No. And I think it also goes back to the focusing on the stories we tell other people as our starting point, versus focusing on the story, we tell ourselves and trying to reframe that in its own inner turmoil, you kind of way, and also to focus less on that idea of the stories other people tell about you, which can also look like, oh, I want to be perceived a certain way, or I want this person to think of me as this and the most terrifying truth that there is that you can't control how that person is perceiving you or your story.

And you can't control what they're thinking about it, even if you hit a message hard or tried to say and the reason I'm telling you this you still can’t control that. So there's no reason to focus on that. The stories people are telling about you. So why not focus on the stories? You can tell other people and that kind of take care, takes care of the story that people tell about you and takes care of that story that you tell yourself.

Nancy: So if you so in the example you gave about the rainbow sweater, did that loosen up the, she wears trash bags.

Hillary: Yeah. I guess, in an ideal world, I would say I haven't thought about it,

Hillary: But, and I feel like I'm in a unique time in that I'm not thinking of fashion so much at the moment because of, I don't, also, should I even, yeah, because we're

Nancy: recording this during the pandemic.

Hillary: Yeah, totally. Okay. So yeah, I'm not thinking about my clothing as much as I normally do, if I'm able to go out into the world. And again, that's not because I want, I care about what other people are thinking about my clothing. It's just how I get dressed to go out into the world right way.

I haven't really thought of that time just because now I have this rainbow sweater story and the rainbow sweater story has come up again. Because it actually, it was two Instagram posts. In an installment of my newsletter that shared this morning. And then since then, every time I put that sweater on, I get the feeling of sharing that story.

Nancy: When in the past it would have been the trash bag story.

Hillary: Correct.

Nancy: Got it. That is awesome. Okay. That makes a ton of sense.

So then let's back up a little bit. How did you become so interested in stories and storytelling?

Hillary: Yeah. About 10 years ago, I knew I wanted to try comedy because I knew I could make people laugh in my everyday life.

It was, it's something I prided myself on and I didn't have to, it wasn't like effortful. I just could do it. And it felt good. And my background was in theater, but I. Never really enjoyed being a character. Like I, I would create like backstories for characters, especially when singing songs for musical theater, because my background was in musical theater.

I would create these backstories that weren't so much the backstory of the play or the musical, but something in my head that would help me tell the story of that song in an authentic way. And so that gave me joy expressing myself in some way, gave me joy, but being characters made me anxious and made me insecure and made me scared to get up in front of people.

But for some reason, comedy, didn’t feel scary or it felt so unknown to me that I'm like I just have to try I don't know what I'm doing. And so I did, and I went, and it was an experimental comedy show that was in an art gallery. And I brought my own laugh track and it was on a, I believe it was on a CD in 2009 or my iPod, but I handed it over to a friend and I said, Hey, can you just play this whenever you feel you want to?

Or if I feel like, if you feel like no on, one's laughing and they should be, can you play it? And so he did. And then that sort of became an additional joke because I had no control over how the audience was going to respond when that was going to happen. I only had control over what I was sharing. And even though in my head, I'm like, oh, I think I'm doing stand-up comedy.

I really shared a story from my life that had a beginning, middle and end. So I would say that was the first. Step into Ooh, I like this idea of telling a story from my life in front of an audience, not because of how the audience would respond, but how it made me feel like that taking up space, finding freedom, which I don't think I had felt for a very long time, just because of I guess the age I was, at that point, like late twenties, but just like feeling, not myself ever since I went to college for performing, which actually made me shut down and made me feel like I never wanted to perform again. Wow. So that was the first step. And then I stumbled across a competitive storytelling shows that were in Philadelphia and then also in New York.

And so I started going to those and for those, it was interesting because you show up, you put your name in a bag, but they only pick out 10 names. So you never actually know if you're going to get picked until the moment before that was so terrifying because I could prepare all I wanted to at home and I did, but I would never know, A if I was going to get picked or B when.

And so when it happened, the very first one, I went to, my name got picked up first. I didn't even get to see an example of all about, I'd never even gone to the show before, but almost that lack of control. Again, took me to that space where yeah, I was terrified but it went away as soon as I was up there.

And in my story, and in the experience I was sharing, which was a story about failing my driving driver's license test at age 24 and having to pee in this wooded area because I was nervous. Like it was, again, a silly story, but I walked away just feeling really good about sharing it. And I, and those types of events had judges and there were scores and I didn't win and I didn't win for years.

And that it wasn't about that. Again, it was like the taking up space and the feeling free and who I was and aligned with who I was in that present moment and the story I was sharing in that present moment.

Nancy: So the act of telling stories, just helps us see ourselves and get a different response from other people than we're playing in our brains.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think the thing is, again, you don't know what response you're going to get from other people. And so it, to me every time, even now, when it's easier for me to get up in front of people and I use storytelling in my everyday communication. So it's easier for me to just launch into stories naturally, but there's always that little bit of jumping off.

It feels like I'm jumping off a cliff. I've never done that. I've never gone bungee jumping or skydiving, but in my head it feels like I'm jumping out of an airplane and flying through the air because I can't control. I know I'll land, first of all, but I can't control. What happens besides just landing and besides sharing what I felt compelled to share in that moment.

And I would say 99.9% of the time, it lands in a super compelling, connected, positive way, even if it's not a positive story. And again, it's not about finding the stories that are the funniest or the stories that are the happiest or the stories that are the craziest thing that's ever happened to you. It just trusting that exchange between you telling the story and the person that's so generously listening to your story is enough.

And it is true and deep

Nancy: Because the idea of change your story kind of demonizes stories. By how you say it, which I think I'd never thought about that until just talking with you. That's what I, that's what bugs me about it because, I can remember when my dad died and it was months later and I said something about how hard it was and that my mom was really struggling.

And a friend said that's just a story that it's hard. You can change that. And I remember thinking to myself, but I want, that's a good story. That's a story that shows how much I love my dad. So I don't want to change that story. Like these stories make up who I am.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think that you don't have to change.

And I think it's, again, what story serving you in the present moment and finding the why behind sharing that story? So the way you just said that now is that's your story, you're taking ownership of it and you're telling it from your perspective, the response you got is someone telling a story about you.

Nancy: Ah, yes, I see. Okay. Yeah. And even that story mean the story that I shared there now we're going to get metta on story. The story I shared was about being my friend, but the story I was sharing with her that was just. A belief on how hard it was, but I wasn't, in my mind, I had a story it's hard because my dad is gone and I love him so much.

And he was amazing. And this way, and I can build up a beginning in the middle and an end to that. And now, and I'm thinking, talking and thinking at the same time, but maybe if I had shared the full story with her of that beginning, middle and end of my relationship with my dad, she wouldn't have said we need to change your story.

Hillary: Yeah. I would say that's probably the case

Nancy: because that's the power in sharing the story. Is you get the full picture,

Hillary: you got the full picture and just the simple structure. If we think of, because there's many definitions of story, as we were talking about, and there's many different ways that stories go out into the world, there's fictional books, there's podcasts, there's film, there's all their stories are everywhere.

So when you said, if I had told the full story, I think that would have stopped her from saying the thing that she said about you. So I think the reason that she would stop that is because you share not only because of the story you shared, but because of the structure of the story, which is no matter what form it takes place, like book, movie podcast, speaking to someone, a story always has a beginning, middle and end.

We learn from the time we're six years old. So I think that's finding, it's not only finding the story that you want to tell, but telling it with a beginning, middle and end structure. And that's what gets the story that someone's telling about you or the belief that someone's putting on you or perception that will help dissipate that or dissolve that because you've shared a complete story.

Nancy: Ah, I'm so glad you came back to that because that is really helpful. So to the same degree then, would you say that because that you had said I hate the idea of just change your story, because it's not a complete story. Does it have a beginning, middle and end, but if I can come up with my beginning, middle and end would that help me?

That might help me change the story because I would see it differently regardless of who I'm sharing it with.

Hillary: Yes. So I think first it's key to focus on the stories that you want to share with other people. And then when you have those stories, like the one that you gave an example of is doing the work as much in advance, as you can, sometimes stories just happen off the cuff in the moment to find the beginning, middle and end of that experience.

And that's what, how it comes together in story form. Got it. Okay.

Nancy: That's really okay. I think that's really helpful. The other thing I don't like about the change, your story, because I didn't realize, because it is chopping off my story but I can change that story.

I can change that story is not what I wanted to say. I can see that story differently by giving it a beginning, a middle and an end and not just being like, oh, I suck at blank, but being like what's the beginning and middle and end of that, what's the story. Full board. Yeah.

Hillary: I think it's finding the story, finding its structure and the word, finding your perspective in the moment, because that's always going to change as well.

Yes, absolutely.

Nancy: Yeah. And that they'll keep changing because even the story of the trash bag, she loves trash bags continued to change as you get older,

Hillary: I think it's funny. Whereas for so long I was deeply upset about it.

Nancy: Yeah. Because now you could see a different You could see the different perspective of, you're not seeing it as a16 year old. You can see it as an adult as well. And about fashion. It just has a lot more to it than just the, I think, because I think so often the messages we're telling ourselves are not fully formed. There's no structure they're just loose and we just believe them. And if we take some time to develop some structure and create a beginning, middle and end story, and then share that story, we can loosen some of the stuff up.

Yes. Okay.

Hillary: That is

Nancy: helpful. We've all heard the idea of the hero's journey. And when I think of the hero's journey, I immediately think of like Harry Potter that Joseph Campbell. Started, I believe he started it. And I know you have a different idea around that and you have different elements that you bring to the storytelling.

So can you talk about the hero's journey and then talk about what you learned?

Hillary: Sure. So I think beginning, middle and end is standard across, no matter what philosophy on storytelling you take. But I used out first, I'll talk through Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, and this is very loose. Cliff notes thing.

So it's that there is a hero and it's usually a man and he's has something going on. He's in one state at the beginning of the story, and then there's something called an inciting incident. So something sets him off on his journey. And through that journey, he encounters many obstacles, many challenges, there's usually a temptress or a villain or things like that.

And then, so there's rising tension, which is the other, a Campbell word. After that inciting incident journey, journey, and then there's like this ultimate climactic moment where something happens. There's some big turning point change. Maybe like a big action event, a fight, something like that.

And then there's the resolution at the end. And the main thing is that the hero is now a different person at the end of the story that they were at the beginning of the story. It's like the standard thing it's ingrained in so much of everything that we consume and have consumed since 1949 when humbled laid that out on paper.

And probably since before that, even, and I always call all those little bits and pieces story ingredients, like the inciting incident, the rising action, the climax, the, and I always have thought those things through, not as I'm crafting my story, but maybe after the fact and in teaching storytelling to other people.

But there was a moment where I started to feel like actually. Things that are more important before you like dissect your story to make sure that it has those things. And also not every story has those things. And that doesn't mean that it's not a good story. And there's so many other ways that a story can unfold.

And that specifically a first person story, which I call personal narrative can unfold. Like we don't, we're not always on the hero's journey, but it doesn't discount that the other things that have happened to us aren't valid or valuable or worth sharing with other people. Basically, because of showing up to a corporate storytelling training, which I used to do a lot of, and seeing that laid out in front of all the participants was this card with storytelling tips.

That was from a different company, not mine. That included a lot of those Joseph Campbell ingredients, so that I show up to this event to teach, but on the table as part of their supplies of this other person’s, sort of definition of story and including these ingredients. And I was like, Hey, in my head, I'm like, I don't really agree with this and this isn't what I'm about to teach.

This is weird that this is here. So after that event, I was like, I need to put my ingredients or what I now call elements down on paper. Yes. Yes. I always believed, but I just hadn't officialized it. Thanks to that, that awkward moment in that event where I was presenting, I put it down on paper. So I call it the five key elements of personal narrative.

And I think that's where I different that there's again, we've said the word story 5 million times, I think focusing and reframing it as personal narrative, especially when you're focused on sharing a story from your life to an audience of one of a hundred, whatever that audience is, it's personal narrative.

And so I'll say all five and then I can talk through. So the five key elements of personal narrative are one your origin story to ownership three beyond the blazer for reciprocity. And five scars over wounds. So I can just give a quick rundown. Yeah. So I think the first element is a really great starting point for anyone who's what story do I have to tell?

What story serves me in the present moment is identifying your origin story. And so that answers the question. How did you get to where you are now? And that's an ever evolving question, right? With an ever evolving answer. So making sure. That you revisit that question and find the story that serves you in the present moment, and that it's not a matter of telling your full life story that got you to the moment where you are now, but finding like zooming in on those smaller moments that illuminate that big story of where you are now?

And in that answers the questions. How did you get your super powers? Because origin stories play a really big part in comic books. And it's always the story of how the superhero got their super power. But if we can think, and again this goes more into the internal story.

Like the story we're telling ourselves, if we can tune in to those super powers that we have, whether that's our values, our strengths, our talents our worldview finding the origin story that aligns with that is. Gives you again, lets you move into a bigger space. Lets you take up space in a truly authentic, genuine way.

So that's origin story.

Nancy: I have a quick question about origin. So that could be if I were anything, I know this is personal narrative, so it's not but if I were like trying to find the origin story for my company, that would, I could ask the same question or the origin story for my story as a mother or my story as a wife or my story as a daughter or just my story,

Hillary: all of the above. I think you can have multiple origin stories and I think.

Even when it's the story of your company and if your company is multiple people or has many moving parts, still finding your journey into that role, into that experience is valid and should be shared even if there's other people involved.

Nancy: Great. That's helpful. Okay. So then next is ownership.

Hillary: Yes. So we've talked about this a little bit already, and maybe just not using the word ownership, but it's. Choosing the story that you want to share with somebody else and making sure that it's told from your perspective through your lens. And so that if for some reason, someone were to go and try to tell your story for you to someone else or retell your story, that because you took, you can't control that.

So because you took ownership of it and you're taking ownership, not only of what happened to you, but how you're sharing it with your audience, then chances are, it will be told in a way that aligns with the story by someone else.

Nancy: So Brené Brown does a really good job of owning her stories because when I, if I retell them, but they're for her, it's from her perspective, is that what you're saying?

Hillary: Yes. Okay. I would say we never, again, we never can control if someone's going to tell a story about us, either back to us or to someone else, but we can control what story we tell and how we tell it. And that to me is taking ownership over not only the experience when it happened to you in your life, because again, this is personal narrative.

So taking ownership over that experience. So maybe Hillary in my story that I'm telling is different from me now telling that story, and I'm going to talk about those differences and maybe there were things in that story I'm not proud of, but I can tell it from my perspective, through my lens and my worldview, and maybe that does bring humor into it, or maybe.

Brings shock and heart to how that Hillary behaved in the story. And so as the teller, I'm taking ownership that yes, that's who I was in that story. And that's how and what happened. But here's how I'm also sharing it with you now, as someone on the other side of that,

Nancy: and that's really what makes the story gritty and believable, that's what makes it because I'm a therapist, so I would say that, but that's what makes it like juicy and rich.

Yeah. You could tell the difference if someone hasn't taken ownership of their story, it's told from a distance as opposed to being in it.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think Brené, Brown's use of ownership too. Is that rumbling with your story idea? Maybe you found the story you want to tell, and maybe you weren't your best idea of best self in that story.

Or there were things in that story that are vulnerable to share or, yeah, it might be uncomfortable for some people, but when you rumble, she uses the word rumble, with that story, and then once you do that, if you're like, yes, I still want to tell that to somebody to me that's when my definition of ownership comes in.

Ownership of that, and just going forward with it and believing wholeheartedly that's the story you should tell.

Nancy: Okay. Got it. Yeah, that's cool. I like that addition to the elements from the hero's journey. Okay, so what's next,

Hillary: next is beyond the blazer. And this came to be because of how I showed up in the world and how I noticed other people were showing up in the world in all aspects of my life, friends, acquaintances, colleagues, and also people that I've worked with on their storytelling is feeling that we have to be initially people feeling like we have to be two separate identities.

There's the personal persona and the professional persona. And no matter what industry you're in or what type of work that you do, that they don't intersect. And that, and there's ways that we behave personally. There's ways that we behave professionally. And what I noticed is that I was hiding behind wearing a blazer.

So when I, and this was specifically when I started teaching storytelling in corporate environments, which I no longer do, but I was, going in and doing a lot of professional development training. And I had never had a corporate job. I just had an idea of what a corporate job meant and an idea of what a corporate job meant for a woman like these general ideas.

And so I thought in order for these people to see me as an expert and to see me as a professional and to see me as. Professional that they paid money to, I must show up in a blazer. And what I was doing was hiding in that blazer, not showing up as my full self personality wise and not teaching, like not giving my expertise fully or giving like I all the whole time I was checking am I acting appropriately for this company culture?

When honestly, I didn't even know anything about the company. And this is the idea of storytelling I think they want to hear. So maybe this one, and again, this is me all like looking back.

Nancy: Yeah. But fulfilling some imaginary persona.

Hillary: . Idea. Yeah. And then any time anything came out, like in those blazer moments where it was like, oh, you used to do standup comedy or, oh, you lived in Japan.

Oh, you studied musical theater. I would laugh and be like, ha yes. And then move on to the next thing. Instead of using those life experiences to inform the work that I was doing. And so all of that and noticing how that played out for other people, like seeing blazer, persona client of mine and personal persona client of mine.

By sharing our stories and sharing stories from all aspects of our life and from all stages of our life experiences, we're integrating the personal and professional. So maybe there are stories that we want to tell for our professional audiences, whether that's us running our own business or leading a team at a big, bigger company, but why not find a story from a different aspect of your life to share that maybe ties to the message of the work that you're doing or ties to the brand or the overall idea.

And it's that integration that makes us feel fully ourselves outside of that storytelling moment as well.

Nancy: Oh yes. I could see that. Yeah. And I think, I could totally see that happening in business, like even the stories I tell on stage, the best stories I tell on stage are personal.

You know where I'm not doing that, but the temptation to do that as strong one and two, I think we do that in just in our world. Like this I'm going to, I'm not going to tell the story at the PTA because this story is it appropriate for that persona, even though if I want to show up as an authentic human being, I need to be, the best stories or whatever stories appropriate, not based on the persona.

Hillary: Yeah. And now I'm going to go back to what I said about you. You can have multiple origin stories because I still do believe that, but I do believe that origin stories should integrate the personal and professional. It should have this beyond the blazer concept in it. Because you brought up that analogy of the PTA.

So maybe there's a how I am a mother origin story, but I still think that can encapsulate other aspects of who you are and what you've experienced. So I think actually if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh great, I need six origin stories. Now I challenge you to actually start with one and then maybe it shifts depending on who your audience is.

But the core of that story is the same. And I've had multiple origin stories in that. Some have served me two years ago and the story I used as the example of how I got to where I was two years ago it's still a story I can share in another context, but maybe isn't my origin story at the moment.

Nancy: I got it.

Yes. Yeah. So even if I'm doing, like I said, oh, this is the story of how I became a mother. This is the, my origin story as a mother, that's still encapsulating all the years before I was a mother.

Hillary: I think, and it's again, not about telling the full story. I just think you don't have to limit yourself to the idea of this as the story, a linear way of getting to how you became a mother.

Nancy: Got it. Yes. So we need to be moving back to one. The origin is the general origin of who we are, how we got here.

Hillary. It doesn't have to be general, I guess what I'm trying to say.

Nancy: I am confusing it more. I had it. And then I tried to clarify and I got it worse.

Hillary: That's okay. I guess all of the elements connect to each other.

In thinking beyond the blazer, in context of any story that you want to tell someone else, it also applies to your origin story. And so I did respond with an enthusiastic yes. When you said, so you can have multiple origin stories. And I was like, yes, that's true. But I would challenge anyone that's curious about finding their origin story to start with one and see what happens.

See if it can be, it can answer that question in a multitude of ways.

Nancy: I see. Oh yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. So then what's the next step? We did origin ownership beyond the blazer.

Hillary: So element number four is reciprocity and. There. I think that there's a difference between, have I got a story for you?

And it's this idea of, I'm just going to talk at this person listening to me and, my story is going to go onto the ether and then dissolve into the air or something. And so it's like expelling a lot of energy out when you're sharing a story and I'm sure that feels exhausting and doesn't feel like you don't feel aligned with the story.

And it's just words it's being talked at. But reciprocity into storytelling is really important because not only is it. The storyteller who's sharing the story. There is a listening ear or ears on the receiving end that are taking that story. They're deeply listening. They're translating your experience into something from their own life to make sense of it and to create that feeling of connection that happens when we share and listen to stories.

And also by taking ownership and showing up and telling your story, you're actually allowing the listener. To think of what stories they want to share in return. And it's almost an invitation for them to share a story, even if not in that moment. Yes. Okay.

Nancy: I love that.

Hillary: Yeah. Yeah. And so always thinking of it as an exchange that you're giving your story to someone and that they're receiving it, but then not that you can control how it's going to be received, but just that there's an exchange and a connection.

To me, it, it evens the playing field. Like we're all at the same level. When we hear a story and share a story, because we're all human. It humanizes it

Nancy: because I liked the idea of not talking at because we have all heard stories where people are just talking, just in everyday conversation where people are talking at us and not engaging us.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think that also comes from not wanting to listen in return. And I think in sharing a story, you also have to be open and willing to listen and return. Even if it doesn't happen in that exact moment,

Nancy: you said the deeply listening. That was part of that. I circled in that the listener needs to be deeply listening, you know?

Hillary: Yeah. And there's all of this science. I don't have all of the facts and figures to go into it fully, but there's all of the science around storytelling where they've hooked up things to the brains of people, listening to stories and people telling stories. And that when an audience is deeply listening and when a storyteller is deeply telling a story that a brainwave patterns sync up.

And I think their original study for that was done at Princeton.,

Nancy: Wow. That is fascinating. Okay. So now we're onto the fifth, right?

Hillary: So the fifth key element of personal narrative is scars over wounds. And I think that's ties back to everything that we talked about at the very beginning of our conversation in that there are some things that have happened to us in life are our life.

I refer to life experiences as what's happened to us before it takes story form, we can choose, we can pick and choose from those life experiences to then create that beginning, middle, and end and craft the narrative around that life experience. So always there are going to be life experiences that we've all had that are in wound phase.

They're raw. They're rough. We haven't processed them. We don't know if we feel comfortable sharing them. We don't even know if we feel comfortable tackling them internally or anything. And that's okay. And you don't have to share something that's happened to you and make it a story in wound phase or wound form.

What are those stories that are in the scar phase? So at something, again, this could be something that maybe felt really awful and tragic at the time, but we now have this new perspective of humor on it, or just the fact that we're so much older or even there are some things that scar up quickly. So something that could have happened three weeks ago phase.

Acknowledge that you have those life experiences that are still in wound stage, but you can say, all right, I'll see you later when you've scarred up. And then we can talk to each other as a story. And so finding the stories from that scar stage is much more powerful, both for you as the teller, but also for the listener, because you're not putting this unraveling of it's like a vulnerability hangover. I think we are in the, and there's always this pressure of, I have to be vulnerable. I have to be true and authentic, and there's ways to do that without dumping the weight of something on someone else or on yourself. And it's, to me more powerful when you can tell, find those stories that are in the scar phase,

Nancy: because when we tell a story that's in the wound phase, especially in a professional setting we're asking people to take care of we're they feel the need to take care of us and boost us up and make us feel better when we're telling the story from a Scar phase. We've done that work already and I could see it. So that's, what's more powerful.

Hillary: And the, where I got this concept from was Catherine Burns, who was the artistic director for the moth, which is a big national storytelling organization. And she wrote this manifesto on storytelling a while ago, many years ago.

And there was just one simple sentence that said, tell your stories from your scars, not your wounds. And so I took that sentence and translated it into this bigger idea. And I would also say that maybe that's where a lot of the coach therapy talk of self-help talk of, that's just a story you're telling yourself is really still in wound phase.

And so it's, and it's not a story. So whether it is an unprocessed experience or. An emotion or a cultural implication or all those things, whatever it is when someone's changed that retell, that chances are, it's still a wound and that’s detrimental to both you and anyone that you're going to share that with.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And so then just dismissing that as, oh, I need to change that then you never get to the point where it's a scar.

Hillary: Exactly. That's a really, I never thought about that until just now. Yeah.

Nancy: So that's yeah, that's interesting. I love this. I love your five. Your five elements, because I think, it's obviously it's so much more in depth than the hero's journey.

And I think, I think if Joseph Campbell knew how much that would be beaten into the ground, he might've thought it through differently. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it just is that's the only way. And so I like that you're bringing in another way. And I think that storytelling, this was, when you approached me to do this interview, I was like, this is why I wanted to do this podcast because I wanted to bring in different not just self-helpy people that are talking about the same thing, but people that have a different take on the same stuff.

We talk about all the time and storytelling and how we tell our stories is just so powerful. I love this work that you're doing and that you were willing to come here and share it in this form. Because I think it's really impactful for my listeners to hear it. Not only to apply in their business worlds, but in their everyday life.

Hillary: One thing. I love that you brought up Nancy outside of this time that we're meeting now is how you defined monger BFF and biggest fan in relation to how I defined stories. We tell ourselves stories that other people tell about us and the stories we tell others. I talk about that a lot.

So yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to. The difference between the stories we tell ourselves, the stories other people tell about us and the stories we tell other people, and that to focus on the story, we tell other people lift the weight or negativity or evilness of story of the other two and in how I think it connects with your terminology, Nancy and your work, which I so deeply admire is that to me, the, and you helped me come to this conclusion that the story that we tell ourselves can be the monger, and that the stories other people tell about us, that can be the BFF stories we tell other people that's the big yes. Fan.

Nancy: Yes. That's really well said. Thank you. I liked that. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it like that at all, but that's true. Now I'm going to have to spin on that for a little bit. Leave us with something to think about. I love it

Hillary: I don't know. You don't necessarily have to keep that in the interview, but

Nancy: no, I think that's really helpful, just also just to bring my work into the whole thing, I think, yeah, I think that's awesome. Okay. So tell us where people can find you, what you're working on, that, all that good stuff.

Hillary: Yes. So the best place to find me is on my company's website. And so it's TellMeAStory. And what I'm working on is working with clients virtually, which I never did before, but now in a world where that was forced upon me, but I'm actually so thrilled about working with clients in this way.

And I think it allows clients to go deeper. It allows me to challenge the way we're communicating when there's a screen in between us and how we can bring that in-person energy and that true connection, how we can get that to transcend a digital conversation. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it.

Nancy: Okay. And you help people figure out what their stories are to share in their business for branding?

Hillary: Yeah, so I guess the way I would put it is that I work with. Entrepreneurs and leaders and those looking to leave a bigger footprint on the world, what story will serve them in the present moment. So helping them brainstorm what that story is, helping them craft that story, and then depending how much they need giving them the push to put that story out and make sure that there's an audience for them to share it.

Yes. So whether that is for business or I produce a live storytelling event. So sometimes it's just a matter of getting people up in front of that kind of audience and telling the story that way. But yeah, I would say most people work on personal narrative with me for professional reasons, but there's personal impact as well.

And then

Nancy: the life story event, you have taken that to be online as well. When is the next, is the next. June 17th, I believe

Hillary: . Yes

Nancy: Okay. They can find that information on your website, but they join that virtually. Yeah. And watch it. Okay. Because I want to, I need to find that out myself. I would like to tune in.

Okay, awesome. And thank you so much for being willing to come on here and share this, your elements and your information on story. Because I think it's really helpful, because that is something we all do, sharing stories and how we can fine tune that to help ourselves and help others is incredible.

Hillary: Yeah. And they're not scary or bad, right? Yes.

Nancy: Thank you. We do not need to constantly be changing our story. Yes.

Hillary: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun. Thanks for having me.

Nancy: This interview was so much fun because Hillary and I were able to hash out the concept of storytelling and narrative as it comes in contact with self-help and personal development.

And both of those processes are messy. I think anytime we can get out of our knowledge bubbles, we can learn more and have such amazing conversations. And that is what Hillary did for me. And I hope you too, since this interview, I've embraced my stories. More looking at them with pride is something that has shaped me, owning our stories is a form of self loyalty when we can own them and see them for what they are.

We recognize both their power and their pain, and we can choose what we want to hold on to.

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