Episode 130: Alcohol, Anxiety, & Avoidance

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Andrea Owen, recovering alcoholic, life coach, and author about the connection between avoidance and alcohol.

Is it too early to pour a glass of wine? 

I'm just going to have one drink while I read my book outside. 

Okay, well, one more while I cooked dinner. 

Oh, a glass of wine would taste so good with this pasta. 

I think I'm just going to do half a glass. 

Well, there's just a little bit left in the bottle. I'm just going to finish that up…

And then at 3:00 AM, waking up with a headache and unable to go back to sleep, my monger starts chiming in: Why did you drink so much? What were you thinking? Why did you do that – again?

Before I took a long, hard look at my drinking, this was what I put myself through most days of the week.

Alcohol and anxiety tend to go hand in hand. We drink to decrease our anxiety and then because it feels so good, we drink too much and the result is an increase in anxiety. 

Today, we're continuing our month of avoidance and anxiety by talking with Andrea Owen about the connection between avoidance and alcohol. 

As a recovering alcoholic and life coach, Andrea has a unique perspective on the topic of avoidance and alcohol. She is the founder of Your Kick-Ass Life coaching and author of the books How To Stop Feeling Like Shit and 52 Ways To Live a Kick-Ass Life. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for years, and this is the first time I've had the privilege of talking with her. 

I love this interview for so many reasons, but the main point I want to leave you with is that alcohol use runs on a continuum and it is a personal decision. No one can tell you that you have a problem with alcohol except for yourself. For Andrea, her bottom was very high. For others, it takes much more drama and devastation before they notice they have a problem.

If you haven’t had the chance, go back and listen to the episodes with Jacquette Timmons, Erica Drewry, and Bailey Parnell. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Andrea knew she wasn’t just a social drinker

• Why it can be so hard to see that drinking is a problem

• Why alcohol gives us false hope as a treatment for our anxiety and why it can make for a dangerous combination

• What role society plays in drinking

• And what to do if you want to change your relationship with alcohol

Resources mentioned:

• Your Kick-Ass Life Podcast: Confession

• Your Kick-Ass Life coaching

• Book: How To Stop Feeling Like Shit

• Book: 52 Ways To Live a Kick-Ass Life

+ Read the Transcript

Andrea: nd then four o'clock rolls around five o'clock rolls around, and the anxiety starts to build, and that's when I would break. And it would be five 30 or six o'clock, and I'd be like, I forgot the garlic. I need to go to Trader Joe's, and I would run down there and get a bottle of two-buck chuck. And I would probably get more than one just to be safe because my anxiety was so high.

And that happened over and over again.

Nancy: What time is it? Is it too early to pour a glass of wine? Okay. I'm just going to have one drink while I read my book outside. Okay. One more while I cook dinner. Oh. A glass of wine would taste so good with this pasta. I think I'm just going to do half a glass. Oh, look.

There's just a little bit left in the bottle. I'm just going to finish that up. And then, at 3:00 AM, waking up with a headache and unable to go back to sleep. My monger would start chiming in, "Why did you drink so much? What were you thinking? Why did you do that again?"

This was most days of the week for me before I took a long, hard look at my drinking.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, I'm talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.

Today. We're talking about the connection between avoidance and alcohol and anxiety how they tend to go hand in hand. We drink to decrease our anxiety, and then because it feels so good, we drink too much, and the result is an increase in anxiety. My guest today is Andrea Owen, founder of your kick-ass life coaching and author of two books.

One how to stop feeling like shit, 14 habits that are holding you back from happiness and to 52 ways to live a kick-ass life BS, free wisdom to ignite your inner badass and live the life you deserve. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for years, and this is the first time I've had the privilege of talking with her. Because Andrea is a recovering alcoholic and life coach, she has a unique perspective on the topic of avoidance and alcohol. I'm so excited for you to hear our conversation. It is an open and honest and, at times, very vulnerable conversation about alcohol, anxiety, and avoidance. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So its message of alcohol abuse during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn't have come at a better time.

Andrea. And I talk about when she knew she wasn't just a social drinker, why it is so hard to see that drinking is a problem, the dangerous combination of alcohol and anxiety, why alcohol gives us such a false hope as a treatment for our anxiety, the role society plays in drinking and what to do if you want to change your relationship with Alex.

Okay. I am so excited to have Andrea Owen here from your kick-ass life. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for a number of years. We're both gonna feel old here. I started following her when I was like in eighth grade, and she started doing stuff when she was in sixth. So it all works out. So, Andrea, we're talking about anxiety and avoidance. And so Andrea's here to talk to us about avoidance and alcohol, which is a subject near and dear to my heart. And I think something that a lot of my listeners are going to relate to. So I want to start right out of the box. Really big. Let's start with the word alcoholic. It's loaded. It is a loaded word. It's loaded, it is a loaded word.

Andrea: It's heavy and loaded. And I was thinking, as you first started talking when you said alcohol, and I was like, I hope people don't turn it off. Like thinking that I'm going to tell people to, I'm taking your booze away. I'm telling people to stop drinking it.

That's not it; just do what you want. It's just a discussion. And yeah, the word alcoholic is it's certainly not a term of endearment, right? Nobody wishes that they are one at all. It's not a club that really anybody wants to be put in. And that being said, there's a lot of shame and stigma around it still.

What's really interesting is that now as we're recording this in 2020, that word almost has like in the circles that I run in almost has an old-school connotation to it because so many people are getting sober. In the name of wellness and I'm using air quotes over here, which adds a whole other conversation, which I'd like to talk about, but they don't want to be associated as an alcoholic.

So they might say something like I have a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol, or it wasn't serving me anymore. So I decided to quit. I know you and I were talking beforehand about combining alcohol and medication and how it's not good for people. And there are all kinds of reasons that people either massively cut back or decide not to drink anymore.

But at the end of the day, that term alcoholic still is not one that anybody wants to be labeled as right.

Nancy: And I think it doesn't get talked about. And I like, I do like how, just because that word is so loaded. I like how the, the culture is shifting more to, it, it is a continuum that I can be someone, not everyone who is an alcoholic or has a problem with alcohol, or however you want to say it is getting up and putting.

Vodka in their orange juice. There are people that are highly functioning that still have issues with alcohol. And that's the theme where I want to talk about, we're going to talk about today. Cause I think you fall into that and I certainly fall into that. So I know you have shared your story.

I've read your story. Can you share, you have to go into the whole thing, but just share your, you had a very high bottom with your story. Can you share that high bottom just to give people a taste of that?

Andrea: Sure. And I, I want to just circle back real quick to what you just said about the continuum and it's, I don't know what the exact stats are and I'm not an expert or scientist on this, but I would venture to say that the majority of people that have a problem with alcohol are the functioning alcoholics. Are the people who still go to work every day. Hopefully they still have their job right now. There's still functioning as a normal human being. And most people wouldn't know, like some people that are close to them might suspect that they have a problem, but for the most part, they cover it up very well.

And that's part of the problem that becomes so incredibly exhausting for people that have problems like mine. And so my mind, my addiction started long before my drinking became a problem. Chronicly codependent. I struggled with love addiction in my late teens and throughout my twenties, and also had bouts of an eating disorder.

And really, I had this like buffet of addictive coping mechanisms, just really unhealthy coping mechanisms. And I would just choose one based on whatever was going on in my life. And how many people really are ever taught healthy coping mechanisms, not very many of us. And so when I woke up and became conscious of those other problems in my life, I got therapy.

I went to 12 step program for co-dependence and really turned things around. And that was right when my drinking picked up. Ah, so it was I had two little babies at home. My identity changed from being a single working woman to stay at home mom with two little babies. I had also been through a pretty egregious divorce that I hadn't ever really processed, even though I was in a much better healthier marriage at that point.

But, looking back on the trajectory, it was almost like without skipping a beat, I just went like from one thing and do another, and before my drinking, like I was a typical binge drinker in my twenties and just partying with my friends, but I could really take it or leave it, like if there wasn't any alcohol in the house, I wasn’t thinking about it.

If I went to a party and there wasn't any booze there, I wasn't upset by it or at all. But as soon as I let go of all those other coping mechanisms and my drinking started to become the forefront of how I would cope. That's when I was thinking about the inventory in my house, I was thinking about, how much time do I have to drink?

Have a drink before we go to this restaurant or the movies or this party. And I would look at everybody else's drink if I was at a dinner party, just to see. We take inventory, like how much wine is left in this bottle? Can I be the one who pours the rest of it?

Am I getting people going to notice that I've had three drinks and everybody else has only had one? These are the types of things that started consuming me. Like the type of thoughts. I shouldn't say that were consuming me and to get on a more nuanced level. I had two babies at home. I had just started a business, just barely started it.

And I remember there was one day where I was going to take my kids out into the cul-de-sac and pull them around on the wagon, which was just mind numbingly, boring. Like it doesn't say anything about how much I love my children. Like I love my children like the next mother, but it was, I was bored being a stay at home Mom and I had an, there was an empty diet Coke can that was being supposed to be taken out to the recycling. And I was like, I could pour wine into that. Three o'clock in the afternoon was not as acceptable for my neighbors to see me outside with a wine glass in my hand, but I could pour some merlot into a diet Coke can, and nobody would know.

And I did it. And I remember thinking, I had that voice that said, I don't think that's probably healthy. It's just like your conscious comes in and like taps you on the shoulder. And I was like, oh my God I didn't want to hear those voices because I knew that my dad also had a very high bottom and got sober when I was 18.

So I knew. I knew where this ship was headed and I didn't want it to be the case. I did not want to quit drinking. I could not imagine my life without alcohol. I was angry at the thought of giving up alcohol. I was like, no sobriety. Are you kidding me? How does anyone have fun? Sober? I am the fun one.

I'm a fun drunk. Sometimes I get emotional, but for the most part, like I have got myself together. It got to the point where it was things like, I'd have two glasses of wine before my husband would come home at 5:30. And as soon as I heard him pull into the driveway, I would put that dirty wine glass in the dishwasher and pull out a new one.

So he would think I was having my first one. It was things like that, that I knew. I knew on a gut level. We're not okay. Here's the other thing that I knew Nancy, is that I didn't want this to be true. I knew that if I didn't change my behavior, I was not going to get. It's just going to get worse. And I also had read some research that said that for some reason, women's progression into quote, unquote alcoholism or whatever you want to call it is faster than men's.

And they, the only explanation they have is that it's because of the way that we metabolize sugar. And it was it's interesting, but also was defeating because I'm like, I don't want this to be the case. And then I had a breakdown with my husband and I was drunk and I told him that I think I needed to get sober.

And he's just a non-drinker, he's like one of those people who can totally take it or leave it and he just leaves it. So he didn't totally understand. He's are you sure? And anyway, bottom line, is, I called a friend who had almost a decade of sobriety and recovery, and I talked to her about it and she was.

She didn't gasp. Like I thought she would, because I still thought that even I still had so much shame around it that I thought people would judge me, even the people I trusted the most. So it was a very afraid to talk to her about it. And she was not judgmental. All she said was why don't you just quit for 30 days and see what.

And I was like, I can do that. That's easy. It turns out it wasn't easy.

I was like, screw this, I'm drinking. But that was my answer.

Nancy: Was that when you went to the grocery store? Like you thought you were going to, there was some story you shared, like you thought you were going to make it. And it was like four o'clock and then you were like, I'm not going to make it. And you packed up the kids…

Andrea: Oh Yeah, no, that was when I was still drinking. And what I would do with that was the whole thought process of, okay, because this is people who have problems with alcohol. This is what we do. Okay. I drank too much last night. I am. I'm not going to drink tonight or I'm just going to, make it to the weekend.

I'm not going to drink, it's like a Wednesday or something. I'm not going to drink. I'll drink on Friday night. And then we go to the grocery store and we don't buy any alcohol. And we are just pleased as punch with ourselves. And then four o'clock rolls around five o'clock rolls around and the anxiety starts to build.

And that's when I would break and it would be five 30 or six o'clock and I'd be like, I forgot garlic. I need to go to Trader Joe's and I would run down there and get a bottle of two buck Chuck. And I would probably get more than one just to be safe because my anxiety was so high and that happened over and over again.

And it just, it's this constant, like trying to cut back or only drinking on the weekends or only drinking beer and wine. And it's people who don't have a problem with alcohol don't need to moderate. They just don't and if you're finding yourself needing to moderate, you might want to look at the bigger problem.

I'm not here to say anyone's an alcoholic. If you do this, then you are this. I'm not like, and that's part of the frustrating thing is like I went to Google and typed in. Am I an alcoholic? Hoping. On the screen, it would pop up. Yes or no. I wanted an answer flashing letters. Yes. So it was like ambiguous and I don't know.

And so that's when I got sober and there's a much bigger story to that too, but that was really the bottom for me

Nancy: Cause I wrote it down. If I don't change my behavior, it's going to get worse. Like when you said that was like a gut punch to me, just because that's, I think whenever we're making a change or whenever we notice anything, that's what happened.

We have that realization. That if I don't change my behavior, this is going to get worse. And meanwhile, we're still debating it,

Andrea: Right we're still making justifications for our behavior. Yeah we do that with other people too. We do with other people. We do that with other things. Like when we realize it's a bigger problem, whether it's food or whether it's our sedentary lifestyle or sugar or bad love and relationships and what we're tolerating. Bad bosses that were tolerating, like all that we wish and hope and pray that things are going to get better on their own. We want to take the easy route if I just ignore this. Hopefully it will get better if I just cut back on the alcohol, and we try that for a little bit.

If I just make more excuses for this person or my behavior, like we try everything, we try the easy way and that doesn't work and it becomes just infuriating and also. The sense of shame too, that washes over is just that we can't fix it. And I work with a lot of high-achieving smart women and they have climbed the corporate ladder and it's if I'm so smart, if I can keep getting promoted, if I can, if these women are making six figures and like, why can't I figure this out?

Why can't I stop? And it's such a deeper issue than just quitting drinking. Drinking. Drinking is just a symptom really.

Nancy: Because I went through a similar process, I did Brooke Castillo at the time she was doing a stop overdrinking class and I took that and it was a game changer for me.

Like I was really glad I found that, but I was surprised a, how much time I was spending, how you describe that. Thinking about it and drinking, thinking about drinking and then thinking about covering it up and I'm not really hungover, I'm just have a headache or it's just my sinuses or it's just like justifying covering it up, looking forward to it.

I was amazed how. So much of my life was devoted to it that I didn't even realize like all of that, like you said about the taking, like never leaving an empty glass on the table or taking the inventory or are they going to know that

Andrea: waiting for an acceptable hour to pour your drink?

Nancy: There's a lot of mental energy. That goes into it. And also then unhooking, as you said, it's more than just the drinking then unhooking, like the social dynamics of it. And how do I go into a room and not have a drink when that's, what I'm used to doing and all of that stuff. Navigating your life, even if you decide to just want to step back and see what it's like to do a social event without drinking, that's challenging.

Andrea: Oh my God. I went to my 20 year high school reunion and I had just gotten sober, I think, within a year or two before. And it was my first big social event. Sober wow.

You to a high school reunion. Could it get any more anxiety ridden? And I had a good high school experience. Like I know that's not everyone's experience, but I had a lot of friends and but still, I was just like fraught with anxiety and the bar is like the most popular place at a high school reunion.

Everybody's feeling awkward and wanting to put their best foot forward. And yeah, it was tough but I. Did you have a question in there? Because I was going to go off on a tangent about anxiety

Nancy: no no go off

Andrea: Well, I think that whether you do Brooks program or whether you do alcoholics anonymous and there's, I'm so grateful now that there are other options besides just AA that we'll look at the deeper problem.

My hope is that, and I don't know that much about even, the logistics and how even Brooke's program works. I know it has a lot to do with that work, but this is so much more, I just want to emphasize this is so much more than just quitting drinking. I think that for me, What I was do, what I was trying to do by drinking was runaway from my life and to deal with my life.

And I'm like generalizing here because it wasn't even something that I was completely conscious of. It was, I was so afraid to walk into healing from so many things from everything I was trying to avoid. I had, like I mentioned, I had gone through a divorce. Had just tried to sweep under the rug and like blame that person.

And like he was such a jerk and it wasn't meant to be, which is all very true. And to listen to him, it was horrifyingly heartbreaking, ending a 13 year relationship. The identity shift of becoming a mother and just everybody has stuff. Everybody listening to this, you have somebody broke your heart, whether it was your mom or dad, whether it was massive disappointments at work, whether it's being, let, go from your job.

Right now, as we're recording this, we're a global pandemic. I guarantee you there's people facing so many challenges, whether your worst challenge right now is just having to quarantine, right? This is causing collective trauma all over the place. And I use that as an example of things that we want to avoid because they suck.

Like listen I've been sober for many years now and I teach shame resilience, and I still don't want to deal with it. It's not like I look forward to it or it's one of those things. I have yet to meet an expert or facilitator or coach or therapist. Who's I cannot wait to do my EMDR therapy, its so comforting and relaxing (laughter) Like it's the freaking worst. So what's on the other side. That's so incredibly rewarding. And no one can explain that to you. Like you can't really even write that on a sales page. Yeah. You'd just have to believe that it's there.

Nancy: it's not, I as you, so I'm just putting a point on this.

It's not linear. Like I think so many people think, oh I'm remarried now to this amazing man. And so that divorce is in the past, like moving on and if you haven't dealt with it, It's not in the past. I have so many clients that are like why am I even, especially now with the collect, I've, I think a lot of stuff is coming up for people cause they're quarantined and they got all this stuff going on.

And so there are a lot of old traumas are coming back and they're like, this shouldn't be, I dealt with. Back in the timeline it's back there. Yeah. Did you didn't deal with it though?

Andrea: You did deal with it and it's back. Yes. There's that thing like, yeah. Yeah. There's that saying? That says like new level, new devil and I think it's actually new level old devil.

Yeah. I think that the same stuff keeps coming up. I heard a interview with Monica Lewinsky years ago and she was talking about the person interviewing her, asked her about her trauma, obviously she dealt with massive public humiliation and went through years of trauma therapy for it. And the interviewer asked her about it.

And she said, the goal is now not that my trauma is completely gone and disappeared. The goal is now that it's just a hummingbird versus I forget what the metaphor that she used, like a hippopotamus or something to be this huge impact that she would have. Now it's just, now it's just like a little flutter and I love that.

She said that because it was such proof that it never really goes away. Like people are facing probably people who had food scarcity issues when they were a child. Like they go to the grocery store now and that stuff comes back up. And I think it's what I have learned through all of this is to treat myself and other people too.

But just with grace and compassion, when old stuff comes back up, because I am a true believer, like I never used to be super spiritual or somatic. And like I used to like staying up in my head, it was safer, but I have really surrendered now into okay. Trauma, even if it's not trauma, just difficult situations and old memories, they live in your body.

They do. And we can't deny that it's part of just the human experience for this to come up. I think people are being triggered all over the place right now. And people, some people are dealing it for through drink.

Nancy: Yeah. And I think, culturally, it was normed. now and now.

Andrea: It's more than normed it’s almost worshipped.

Yeah. The media feed is packed more so than normal with people talking about drinking and celebrating the culture, that idea

Andrea: Because we don't know what else to say.

Nancy: Yes, very true. Because I said to you, if I hadn't gotten my drinking under control, I know I would be a two bottle or one to two bottle her right now.

I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know what to do.

Andrea: People don’t know what to do with their hands. People don't know what to do. People don't know what to say online. And people also want to find some kind of relief, not just from the physical drinking, but also of what to talk about. It's like we have to have humor through this and I think that's why everybody's talking about the tiger king right now, but also what's another really socially acceptable joke it's drinking.

Yeah. And honestly, And some people think this is such a buzzkill, but I hope that when my children are my age, that drinking is as weird as smoking is now. How, when we see, cause like when you and I were kids, I remember seeing cigarette vending machines inside of a day.

That is unheard. Those are museums now. I'm not that old. (laughing)

Nancy: Exactly. Thank you for saying that.

Andrea: But I want, I hope, like when my kids are in college, even that they are in some kind of history class and there's like ads in there from drinking. And they're like, remember when this was a thing and that it's just that kind of taboo and that we flip the script on it.

Yes. The stats are staggering of Holly Whitaker wrote a great book called quit, like a woman. And she's really great when it comes to stats and doing great research and how horrible drinking is for us. And then the domestic violence, the violence in general, the accidents, the deaths, the sexual abuse, the sexual assault that happens because of drinking will blow your mind. I told my 12 year old son, the other day we were on a walk and we were talking, he had asked me if I'd ever smoked marijuana. And I said, yes. And he looked at me like he was judging me. And I said, listen, he's 12. And I said, listen, I'm going to be honest with you.

I would rather you and your sister smoke pot. If you're going to do anything, I would rather you smoke pot versus drink. And he looked shocked and I'm like, we'll talk more. Later. We don't necessarily want you to smoke pot and there are some parents listening who might be gasping, but when you look at the stats yeah.

I've told them, I say, look at the stats. I don't, I personally don't smoke lot anymore because I'd be smoking all day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. So w one thing I found, which, Is what I really enjoyed about drinking. I call it my fancy drink that I needed a fancy drink. And that right now, like that's like either an N/A beer or a bottle of water, in a fancy glass.

And that kind of signified the end of the day for me ritual it's a ritual. And the power of that was amazing to me that it, in so many ways it's served at the same purpose that it was like, here's your signal to relax. Here's your, have this bubbly drink and this will relax you.

Did you find anything like that? That was. What was underneath what the alcohol was serving?

Andrea: I think I was past that. I think that if I would have said what you just said, that was just an excuse for me personally. I love hearing other people's stories, but I think that what you just described sounds just like a habit.

Like for people like putting on their workout, clothes signals that it's time to go sweat. Getting the leash out for your dog signals that your dog is going to get excited. Cause he, or she knows they're going for a walk, but that's, to me that's easily replaceable. I would just put kombucha in a wine glass and be just as satisfied with the ritual aspect of it.

For me, it was more than just, I would say like the ritual was maybe like 1% of it. 99% of it was running away emotionally and mentally was

Nancy: how the alcohol made you feel. The numbing that the alcohol brought

Andrea: checking out, I just was checking out. And it was also a way to squelch my anxiety, but it ended up, I ended up totally shooting myself in the foot.

Nancy: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about how it pours gasoline on the anxiety, the rebound effect.

Andrea: It's, it's a sedative and it just, I, again, I'm not a scientist, but there, I know that there are studies out there that show that it actually makes. People's anxiety worse and it affects our sleep.

That's one part of it. I was not, I was drinking like, I think back on this and I'm like, how did I even function? Also granted, I got sober when I was 36 or 37. So I was, it was younger, somewhat younger. I still my thirties, but I would drink an entire bottle of wine. And then I would take three Tylenol PM.

That's the only way I can sleep. But then I was getting up at a pretty early, had two toddlers and I go for a three mile run. Oh, my pushing two toddlers in a baby jogger. And in a way it was to punish myself. It was to prove that I was okay if I could still get up in the morning.

And also my tolerance was high. If I could get up in the morning. Drink water and drink coffee and go for a run. Then clearly I don't have a problem. It's moms who sleep in until 10 and don't work out at all and they stay in their sweats all dayAnd I remember watching this was back when Oprah still had her show, but there was a woman on there who they were highlighting, women who are alcoholics, who were mothers.

And there was a woman who had, she hit a bottle of Chardonnay, like in the laundry room. So it's I was like, okay, then that's clearly an alcoholic and I am not one, cause I don't have to hide my alcohol. And it's funny. I ended up meeting her. That woman that was on Oprah. She had a blog and I had reached out to her and we ended up being in the same circle of recovery.

And I told her that story, she's you have no idea how many women told me the same thing. Wow. And but yeah, like that was anxiety was something also that I had such a shame and stigma around because it was a lack of control. Like I wanted to control how other people perceived me. I wanted to control how my body was the way it looked the way it behaved. And when I was having a panic attack or my anxiety, or I would just wake up with anxiety, to me that signaled total and complete weakness, it signaled that I was less than. That there was something wrong with me that I was broken. And I also didn't want anyone to know.

So if I could squelch that anxiety, even if it was for a couple of hours, then that was all that I needed. I would deal with the repercussions later, which was the next morning or the middle of the night waking up in a cold sweat at 3:00 AM.

Nancy: Yeah. Which is fascinating how our brains work. That, that break is worth it,

Andrea: It was, and it's interesting, you hear people who don't understand addiction or people that struggle with any kind of substance. And they say you had kids like, wouldn't that be enough for you to be able to quit for your kids? And I remember right before I got sober, my daughter was about six months old.

She must have been yeah. Six months old because it was my birthday. And we were, there was where we lived. There was like a community pool and jacuzzi and. I had, I was sitting on the edge of the jacuzzi with my feet in the water. And I had taken a Vicodin, which was my husband's prescription. Cause he had shoulder surgery and it was like out on the counter.

So I was like, why not? It's my birthday. So my mentality took if I get in and then had a couple of glasses of wine and the four of us had gone down to the pool and my husband was there too, but I had my daughter on my lap and she was six months old. So she was, like not walking yet, but active in my arms.

And I remember thinking that I was buzzed enough that if she fell in the water, I don't know how quick I would be getting her out, and the bubbles were going. And I remember having that thought this is dangerous. Like, the buzz that I have is dangerous.

And even that wasn't enough. But it was, but honestly, like it was those thoughts. It was, knowing that pouring wine and a diet coke in the middle of the day wasn't okay. Feeling supervised when my daughter was that little near the water wasn't okay. So all those thoughts started to stack up, which later pushed me to get sober.

Nancy: So then after the 30 day where you could, you did say, yeah. So then how did start really getting sober in those early days?

Andrea: In the early days I went to alcoholics anonymous. I went to meetings, the 12 step program meetings, and it was enormously helpful for me. I also had watched my dad go through it.

So I was familiar with the program. I also had gone to 12 step programs for co-dependence. So again, I had a sense that this could work for me, and I know that alcoholics anonymous is not for everyone. I also have my feelings surrounded. I don't go to meetings anymore. I think it needs to be, I think it needs to be updated, but alas.

That's a long shot.

Nancy: I agree with you.

Andrea: It saves a lot of people's lives. So I did, and then I actually relapsed about five months later, which is quite a story on vanilla extract and NyQuil, if you want me to tell that quick story? Oh my gosh. So I had four or five solid months of sobriety and recovery and was working with a sponsor and doing all the things they were supposed to do.

But still in the back of my mind was feeling like my story wasn't bad enough. Like I'd go to meetings and hear stories of people, getting their kids taken away, having DUIs, getting arrested, losing their jobs, losing everything, and coming from a very high bottom I've look around and I'm like this isn't me.

There wasn't really anyone there I could relate to. And they kept telling us like, listen for the similarities, not the differences. And. I remember I was at a very small meeting and someone said, I don't know about the rest of you, but I was really desperate when I got sober and everyone's nodding their head.

And I'm like, I wasn't, my rock bottom had come years before with severe co-dependence, which is another story for another episode, I got conned and my ex-boyfriend lied about having cancer to cover up his drug addiction anyway. So that rock bottom was back there, but mine wasn't. And so I. Went home, like a few days after that, my husband and I had gotten into an argument, which was pretty rare.

Like we have a really great relationship and we got into an argument and I got super triggered. Cause I was still dealing with all the emotional stuff from my divorce and he left the house to go for a walk and I'm like, this is it. He's leaving. I'm going to be a single mom and what am I going to do?

We had just moved, like just going through that whole anxiety spiral of being abandoned. And so I thought to myself, like I immediately wanted to drink because that's what we want to do. We want to change the way we feel really is what it is. I don't like feeling this way, triggered and abandoned and nervous and anxious and angry and sad and all of these things like how can I quickly change the way I feel?

Because this whole being like sober stuff, like actually having to be in my feelings is not fun for somebody else. Not for me. So I didn't want to break my sobriety. Like I didn't want to drink, but I had heard another AA speaker talk about vanilla extract and how she used to drink vanilla extract. So I go to the pantry.

The very back of the pantry, find a bottle of vanilla extract, take a swig of it. And then I look at it that was like sediment all along the bottom. And I look in, it had expired in 2005. Oh. And it was, he was 2011. So it expired six years earlier. So I was like, that's gross. I put that back. And then also it heard that you could drink cough syrup and get a buzz.

So do you see like my thought process there? It's I was looking for loopholes. I still wanted to get a buzz. But I didn't want to drink, like I would've been too to shame to go back to an AA meeting, having drank alcohol. And it just is amazing to me that I thought that I could get away with this is when I really realized I had a problem.

So I went and chugged some cough syrup and stood there for a few minutes and nothing was happening. And then I just, I call it like the case of the F*ck-its, where I just found a bottle of wine. And started drinking it. And then later on that a few hours later, my husband must've come home and my son was bouncing jumping on his bed and I was sitting right outside of the door, on the ground.

And there was like this armoire thing. And I d totally gave up and was just drinking straight out of the bottle at that point. And I had the bottle in there and I grabbed it and drank from it and he stopped jumping on the bed. He was four at the time he stopped jumping on the bed and he has this huge smile on his face.

And he goes, mommy, what are you doing? And it probably looked funny, that I was drinking from a big bottle of wine and I stopped and I looked at him and I said, I don't know. I don't know, honey. And that was the last drink that I ever had. That was September 27th, 2011. That was September 26th, 2011.

Cause my sobriety date is the 27th and I went back to AA and I told everybody what happened. I think I needed to have that relapsed because I was questioning if I really had a problem with alcohol or not. And it really, you can call it a problem with alcohol or you can call it a problem with wanting to run away from my life.

You could call it a problem of not being able to be in my feelings and my emotions, not being able to be in my discomfort. I did not know how to do that. I was like, it was like throwing a cat into a bathtub with full of water. You know how they're just like climbing. That's how I was with feelings.

I just was so incredibly uncomfortable. And that's when I really decided, okay, this is so much more than about the booze. Me learning how to process my feelings and getting really vulnerable and learning resilience. It just better coping mechanisms. So that's really also in the trajectory of my professional life changed because I never thought that I would be teaching shame resilience, never.

I started a business called your kick ass life. Do you think that this was on the repertoire? It was not, but the universe had other plans

Nancy: So, the idea of loopholes, of justification, of the mental energy that you're spending on it. I can remember I was, when I was doing my counseling training, I did an internship at a addiction place. And at the time I was a big drinker. And so I don't know what the word would be. The justifying that, you know, that here I'm a big drinker, but I'm sitting in every day in the group program with the men who are, but they all had REALLY BAD problems (Laughter)

Andrea: , like sure. But not you. (laugher)

Nancy: Exactly And I was assigned to this kid who was like 22 and he had four DUIs and he just kept saying, I don't have a drinking problem.

I just have a driving while I'm drinking problem. And I at the time was yeah, part of my brain was like, yeah, he's right. He doesn't really have a problem because I knew people that had DUIs in my circle. I never had a DUI but that idea of justifying, and that I, a part of me was like with him, believing it like a whoa to me, then I went back to my supervisor and I told him, and he was like, four DUI, That's a problem at 22. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I didn't tell him that. I was thinking this isn't a problem. Cause I, I just told him and he was like, wow. He said for DUIs, like how could he like tells you the warped thinking of him that he's just justifying it with I don't have a drinking problem. I have a driving problem. And then I was like, yeah. And then also tell us the warped thinking of me that I'm with him and I'm supposed to be his counselor here, that was my first. That was my first kind of there's something else going on here.

Andrea: Yeah. And it's just, I think it also it's what I think it would be different if he had gotten pulled over for driving under the influence of cocaine, which we know isn't really a thing, but I'm using that example because we don't put that in the same category. Yeah. If I went to a party and everyone's, like doing lines of cocaine and I'm like, oh I quit.

People wouldn't be like, what, why? Unless that's all we did in his friend circle, but I'm just, maybe this is a bad example, but like alcohol is the only drug that we allow so much laxity with. And we also ostracize, I know that my son, a dramatic word, but like when you are sober, you realize very quickly that everybody drinks, but you, and that people are almost insulted when you refuse a drink or you are the sober one at the party.

It's awkward and I am glad to see that it's changing, but it's still a thing.

Nancy: So I have a just a question. I

Andrea: probably have an answer.

Nancy: So what I've noticed for me and with clients is that, alcohol just enhances all the feelings. So I, when I couldn't, cause I couldn't tap into my feelings, like similar to you, like very similar story.

It's all up hear. Then recently also went through Brené Brown shame, resilience training, and also was like, no, but anyway, never in a million years thought I'd be the first thing that I'd be telling people is you got to acknowledge it. Never thought that would come out of my mouth.

So I would drink to tap into those and then become overly emotional to cause, I needed a way to tap into those feelings, but I didn't know how to do it unless, and the drinking would help that.

Andrea: You think that the drinking is helping? I probably seemed like the, my first thought was like, my heart just breaks for that part of you.

That is so wanting to express. Your feelings and it sound, I make up that not only do you want to express your feelings, but you probably wanted someone else to witness them as well.. And also be received in a supportive, loving, compassionate way.. Because we've all had it go wrong. I think everyone has experienced it where it's gone the other way.

And that's what makes us decide to hold them all in. That's where the term put your walls up. Don't let anybody in comes in. So that's my first thought is oh my gosh, I want it. I want to ask you if you want a consensual hug. I just, and I think that, yeah, there's so many people who are experiencing that and just aren't conscious of it.

Yeah. And how many times have we all cried in the bathroom with our girlfriends? Drunk? Yes. We're all wanting that, not drunk at all, wanting to be able to turn to our girlfriends and say, I had the shittiest week, my partner was such an asshole to me, and here's what happened. And I felt so small when we had this argument and to have it be received with, oh my gosh, tell me everything.

How can I support you? Yeah. Instead of. Oh, it probably wasn't that bad or that was nothing. Let me tell you about what happened to me at work, and it's, that's all at the end of the day is what we want. That's why this quarantine is so hard because we are meant for connection and love and to be around each other, even just socially and.

I think that's what the conversation this whole conversation is about is that we were, one of the things I realized through sobriety is that the one thing I wanted the most was intimacy and love and trust with other people, but it was also the thing I was the most terrified of. Yes.

Typical, like both outcomes are terrible in my mind. And I think that I am not the only one who feels that way.

Nancy: Yeah. I definitely cause that's what I do have to just clarify that, but I didn't know that at the time, like that's looking back, I can look in retrospect myself and be like, oh, that's what I was doing.

Was it allowed me to tap into my emotions by, over drinking But I can, cause I can remember also that my husband and I would fight more, when I was drinking and I would have the story that when we drink, cause he's a drinker. I mean he likes to drink. And he still does, even though I don't, he oh, we have these great conversations and we really hash everything out and it's so wonderful when we're really, in it together drunk.

But you don't remember it the next day? No. And it usually ended. On some stupid fight and we never fight to where the same as you, sounds the same as you guys. And we would end up in some, like arguing over something ridiculous. And that was another sign for me that that was what I started realizing this isn't fun anymore,

Andrea: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think that when you are drinking, you have no emotional boundaries at all. Either you're shoving them all down or you are lashing out when it's really not about the thing you're fighting about. It's something else that either you don't understand or that you're too afraid to talk about.

Or you are completely overstepping emotional boundaries by dumping something on someone else who is either not equipped to handle it, or you're having very high expectations of how they're supposed to handle it both. And it just, it's just never a good outcome is thinking about that. That guy you're talking about the 22 year old, there's no one makes any good decisions while they're drinking.

Maybe I'm maybe there are some good like business ideas that have come from that, but just anybody really make any good decisions. I've never made a good decision while drinking.

Nancy: No. Yeah, no, not at all. Yeah, but I'm so glad that we tapped into that feelings piece. Like really hit that. Cause I think that is a, that is at the crux of this for many of my clients is he is either trying to avoid or trying to enhance so that someone can meet them.

Where they think someone will hear them and it doesn't work.

Andrea: It's we're always trying to get our needs met at the end of the day. We're always trying to get our needs met and Harville Hendrix wrote a really great book called getting the love you want. And the gist of it is that we're always trying to heal our childhood wounds through our partners our romantic partners.

And I don't think it's even just with our romantic partners, it can be with our friends as well. And I just, I think. To tag onto that. I did not want, I just wanted to quit drinking. I didn't want to deal with the feeling stuff like in the beginning. I was like, no, I just want the quitting drinking to solve all my problems.

I don't want to talk about my childhood. I don't want to talk about my divorce. I don't want to talk about all my flaws. I didn't want any part of that. It made me wish that I had a zipper and I could just like unzip my skin and crawl out of it. Like I did not like even still I'm like, oh, I don't want to play principal development life coach anymore.

I just want to talk about new countertops. I just, it's exhausting and I'm not going to lie and tell you it's super fun and it's exhausting. But I think I got to a place where I was like, It's not the other way isn't working anymore. Yeah. And I knew from experience from my first marriage and also watching my parents' marriage, unfortunately fall apart.

A lot of it was due to my dad's drinking. Is that if I kept this up, there's no way I could have the marriage that I put on my vision board. There's no way I could have the business that I dreamed of. I had so many. I was so full of energy and enthusiasm just as a personality trait, but I knew that there was no way I was going to accomplish all these goals.

If I was just pouring alcohol on it all day long. And it was mildly devastating. And I think, I just want to mention that I had to grieve not drinking anymore. Because I had so many fun memories from my twenties and, even my early thirties, like before everything really started to fall apart, they say the alcoholics or even people that just have problems with drinking, like there are three categories there's fun as the first category.

And then the second category is fun with problems. And then the third category is just problems and you can move up. Like you can move from fun to fun with problems. To just problems, but you can never go back. And we're always trying. So I had gotten to the point where, my twenties was really just fun.

I didn't have any responsibilities. I didn't have any kids. I wasn't even like super ambitious with my career. It was just fun. And then I moved into fun with problems and I was like, Ooh, I just want to go back to fun. Maybe if we go to Vegas for the weekend, I could get back there. Yeah. And it just, and there would be days when I would just pine for those old days when it was really fun anymore. But I had to remind myself that's not what my life looked like. It was fun with problems and I was just headed for problems. And so I just want to reiterate, like it's okay to grieve your old drinking self. I had to do that. And I was denying that for probably a few years and just really ashamed of where I had ended up.

And I was like, you know what? I had a lot of really good times with my friends and even still something will come a song will come on Spotify, some Mariah Carey song, and I take a screenshot of it and send it to of my girlfriend. And I'm like, remember when we used to, that's about it and laugh and that's okay.

It's it doesn't, it's not triggering for me or anything like that. But I say all that to you have to feel whatever feelings you're feeling.

Nancy: Because it becomes a part of your identity. Like I was the fun one who never turned down a drink and always was game for shots

Andrea: a drinking game. Yeah. You and I would've had so much fun (laughing)

Andrea: and so many problems

Nancy: And you go out into the world and you've changed. And people are like, oh, you're not that the fun one anymore.

Andrea: You make up that people are going to say that.

Nancy: YES! Nicely said yeah. Thanks for saying that for that. Thank you for that

Andrea: . Yeah. You don't know. And I think you, you have to get to a place where you're okay with whatever they think.

I still have people who are like, are you sure you were an alcoholic? And that's dangerous for someone people, because then they were like, maybe I wasn't, maybe I'm okay. Maybe I can just have a glass of wine with dinner. And I have to just be okay with, they didn't know that side of me. They only knew fun Andrea, who would go to the Mexican restaurant and have a margarita. They didn't know the Andrea who was drinking, four or five glasses of wine every night on a Tuesday with a toddler on her hip. Two very different lives. Cause

Nancy: Because I ended up going back to drinking and dipping into it, experimenting and I never could get back to fun.

And I think that's why I eventually stopped. I realized I'm never going to get back to fun. And so I'm just going to stop searching for it.

Andrea: Were you disappointed?

Nancy: Yes.

I was just going to say which I was very disappointed about like that.

When you said that about the grieving, that really resonated with me. Cause it is, I've noticed what I've noticed is during this pandemic time, as we said, I would be drinking more, but I have like, when my husband goes to get a drink, I'm like, oh, I want to have a drink. And I want to be able to, to numb for right now, too.

But then when I take that story all the way through, I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to wake up in the middle of the night, feeling crappy. And I don't want to, get up in the morning, beat myself up. And I

Andrea: Really think through the drink, that's an alcoholics anonymous term, think through the drink.

So you have to just completely think about what would the next step be and on. But yeah, I still think that too. And I think it's part of that. I miss the ritual and I'm missing out on fun and part for me as someone who identifies as an addict, I also think that's the addict part of my brain.

Who's trying to get me to go back. Say that for addicts. The addict part of us is always on the sidelines warming up. Oh, the coach like put me in I'm ready. Anytime. Something really stressful happens. Like I lost my dad in 2016 and I had a my sobriety was checked just a couple of weeks ago, like when it was really hitting the fan with this pandemic, like that first one.

The week of March 9th, people were all like looking around, like what's happening. And then the following week that we get the 16th was like, really, when everybody started screaming that week I had a meltdown and was just like, oh my God, what I wouldn't give to, to be drinking again. And that is like immediately where I need to call my friends and say, this is what happened and do whatever I need to do for my own recovery and sobriety.

But, we, I always remind myself. Humans are meant for times like this. Imagine what our ancestors have been through this, the fact that we are alive, that our mothers, made it through childbirth, let alone the crisis and wars and famine. And unless you came from like aristocracy liquids, many of us, like our ancestors went through hell and I.

We were meant for this. We were meant to bounce back from this and not have to be drunk the whole time. Yeah. That is comforting to me to know that like I'm going to, this is not going to emotionally kill me.

Nancy: Yeah. That's a great way to look.

Andrea: I was going to say this isn't going to kill me.

And I'm like for some people that's a very real fright for people who are immune compromised. But emotionally, like my feelings are not going to murder me. Yeah,

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. I think that's helpful too. People. Okay. So someone's listening to this, they're intrigued. They want to learn more.

I know you have some resources, , can, you name your resources and the others you think might be helpful

Andrea: . I clearly like to talk. They have my old podcast where I interview really awesome people. And I also coach people on my show and have solo episodes as well. You can find at your kick-ass life podcast, wherever you.

Podcasts and I, what do I have going on right now? I'm writing my third book, but that's not going to be out for awhile. And I'm going to do a writing program with a colleague of mine. So that's fun. Follow me on Instagram. That's where you can find everything that's going on, your kick ass life on Instagram

Nancy: and her amazing dog as well

Andrea: She's in my stories, my coworker she's there now. I have three co-workers at my house for me. I like them a lot.

Nancy: I said that to my husband. I said, the good thing is you're the only person in the world I want to be trapped with during a pandemic. Of course, I said that. I still say that, but it's funny how each week that becomes a different I have to remind myself of that.

Andrea: So grateful that I really get along with my husband. I know that's not the case for many people or they're single and they're by themselves in their apartments. I just, I, my heart is just breaking for everyone. Who's really struggling right now. And that's everyone to some degree yeah. Yeah.

I'm thinking of all of you.

Nancy: Yeah. And you did a special series on your podcast.

Andrea: I did for drinking It's the best way to find those episodes is to go to your kick ass life.com/recovery. And you can find them there. You can listen there on the site, or you can find all the numbers and then search and I, apple podcasts or wherever you can find them there.

And that's probably the best way to find all those recovery episodes.

Nancy: Okay, Andrea, thank you so much. This was fabulous.

Andrea: I had fun and I love talking about this and DM me on Instagram. If you heard this and didn't want to just say hi, I love saying hi to people who heard me on specific topics.

Nancy: I love this interview for so many reasons, but the main point I want to leave you with is alcohol use runs on a continuum and it is a personal decision. No one can tell you that you have a problem with alcohol, except for yourself. For Andrea. Her bottom was very high for others. It takes much more drama and devastation before they noticed they've a problem.

Maybe this conversation resonated with you. Maybe you want to change your relationship with alcohol, like guy. Trust me five years ago. I never thought I could live without alcohol, especially during a pandemic. When my anxiety is sky high, it isn't always comfortable. It isn't always easy, but it is a thousand times better than the 3:00 AM wake up calls of what did you do last night

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 129: Avoiding Through Social Media

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Bailey Parnell, founder of #safesocial about how we engage in avoidance through social media.

Social media is one of my personal favorite methods of avoiding and as you can imagine it has only gotten worse in recent weeks.

I often find myself obsessively making the rounds on social media: Twitter to Facebook to Instagram to email and back again. Stories about being isolated at home, questioning the seriousness, tips for cooking during a crisis, hoarding TP...

UGH!  This has to stop!

This is a conversation I was having with myself even before the pandemic crisis. It has only gotten worse since the shelter in place orders went down.  

Social media is an amazing catch-22 – it calms your need to be vigilant while simultaneously making you more anxious. 

All this month we have been exploring the ways that avoidance shows itself in relation to anxiety. So far we have talked with Jacquette Timmons about avoidance and money and Erica Drewry about avoidance and food. 

Today we are talking Bailey Parnell about how we engage in avoidance through social media. I am so excited to bring you this eye-opening conversation with Bailey, founder & CEO of SkillsCamp and #safesocial. After Bailey noticed her own abuse of social media she decided to research and learn more about this issue. Her approach to reducing our social media is unique and very doable. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why the research that says our anxiety increase with social media is not accurate

• Why our tendency to demonize social media only makes it worse

• Baliey’s 5 steps to using social media safely – AKA, Safe Social

• What to do when you find yourself down the rabbit hole and mindlessly scrolling

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Bailey Parnell Website

• SkillsCamp
  

• #safesocial

• Instagram: @baileyparnell

+ Read the Transcript

Bailey: But if abstinence from social media, without consequences, not an option for youth of today, the question then becomes how we practice safe, social and what emerged in my research and in others literature, was that the most important thing bar none was how you were feeling offline at the time.

Nancy: Once again, I found myself obsessively making the rounds on social media, Twitter to Facebook, to Instagram, to email, and then back again, stories about being isolated at home, questioning the seriousness tips for cooking during a crisis hoarding toilet paper OD. This has to stop. This is a conversation I had with myself before the pandemic crisis, and it has only gotten worse since the shelter in place orders went down.

Social media has this amazing catch 20. It calms your need to be vigilant while simultaneously making you more anxious, avoiding through social media is one of my personal favorites. As you can imagine, it has only gotten worse in recent weeks.

You’re listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, I'm talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today. We're talking about how we engage in avoidance through social media. I'm so excited to bring you this eye-opening conversation with Bailey Parnell, founder and CEO of skills, camp, and hashtag safe social after Bailey noticed her own abuse of social media.

She just started to research and learn more about this issue. Her approach to reducing our social media is unique and very doable Bailey. And I talk about. Why the research that says our anxiety increased with social media is not exactly accurate. Why our tendency to demonize social media only makes it worse.

Her five steps to using social media safely, AKA hashtag safe, social, and what to do when you find yourself down the rabbit hole and mindlessly scroll. Okay. In continuing our month of looking at ways we avoid. I'm so excited to bring you Bailey Parnell, who is going to talk about safely using our social media with her business, hashtag safe social, which she's going to tell us more about as we talk.

So welcome

Bailey: I'm glad to be here sharing this information.

Nancy: We were just talking before I hit record how with everything going on with COVID-19, social media has become a way for me to cope even more. So, I was confessing to Bailey that I have a social media addiction.

And so, I'm very interested in picking her brain. That stuff. Okay. So how I got to know Bailey was she does an amazing Ted talk that she did three years ago. And in the Ted talk, Bailey, you talk to about your little come to Jesus of going four days without social media, which I could so relate to.

What that was like and how it changed your life.

Bailey: Yeah. So, at the beginning of the Ted talk, I share a story of how I went to visit my sister who was over in beautiful Jasper Alberta, and the west coast of Canada mountains. Everything you can imagine in terms of the most beautiful, okay. Doors. And we were going for four days, but this had been the first time that I had taken a vacation at that point.

And over four years, and it was just a four-day vacation. And so, what I mean is no work vacation with no phone, no social media going dark, essentially. And on that vacation, I definitely felt like I was experiencing Phantom vibration syndrome where I would go to check, and it wasn't there. Or I was like going to grab it to take a photo.

It was Stopper to make you realize that was your inherent reaction. And I know fast forward, I know today that it was withdrawals. It was definitely your brain and your habits actually reacting to it, not being there and subconsciously. And so, there was actually even negative repercussions such as a stress, but that was just one small experience for me.

The reason why I started this work actually. Far beyond it. It was certainly, it wasn't overnight, but it was definitely as a result of a few experiences because before my business now I used to work at Ryerson university and I worked particularly in a role that was social marketing, digital marketing, but within student affairs, so everything outside the classroom that support student success and things like health and wellness and learning support and all that jazz.

This is now going back to 2015, but at that time there was a bunch of news articles though. They only give you one side of the story saying that social media is causing depression in youth. And here I am telling youth to be on social media. And I'm again, like you just heard I'm experiencing some of this stuff myself.

And so, part of the motivator was, yeah. I someone who is working in social media, theoretically, it was my life at the time personally and academically, if this was doing this to me, what on earth was it doing to everybody? And so that, and I need to make sure if I'm going to ask you to be spending time with me here, that they can do it safely.

And so that was all together. Part of the impetus for this work, which is now almost five years ago. Wow.

Nancy: So, when you say they're only giving you one side of the story, cause we've all read those articles. What do you mean?

Bailey: Yeah. So, I'm very glad you asked that because this is a big piece that I often want to get out.

Naturally when you read these articles, a lot of reporting on any research is just the big story. And it's usually the negative story. And so, a lot of the articles that I could sell point you to today are things like social media causing depression in youth or social media relates to depressive symptoms and teenagers, and a lot of this stuff.

And so, when I went into my. Master's research. I actually thought that I would find a more explicit correlation between time on social media and the rising levels of anxiety and depression. And what I actually found was no consistency in the research at all. And some people, yeah. Some people said that, yes, there's an issue.

Some people said, there's no statistical relevancy here. We cannot comment on whether or not this is causation or just correlation. In fact, most said they believe it's correlation, not causation. And then most importantly for me was that there was also a whole group that's not talked about. That's. Wait a sec, this is actually having positive impact on our participants, improving their mental health.

So, then I was looking at, okay what is always the same and what was always the same was that when there was a mediator introduced in the middle, such as I feel envy more, or I compare myself more or I feel lonely more than it was always a bad situation. And so, what that told me was that it was actually less about the networks themselves and more about who you are offline going into the networks.

And that also remained true in my own research with my own participants, which was more qualitative and hearing from people describe their own experiences. And what you'll find, which is probably unsurprising to both of us here was that 100% of them also gave many positive experiences of using social media things.

Connection, like learning laughing finding community inspiration, motivation, all this stuff. And so, there was a group of people now, including myself, which are having a good time on social media and it's improving their effect. It's actually making them feel good. What are they doing?

Like what's going on here? That's making a lot of people have a good time and what's going on. That's making a lot of people have a bad time, was where my work went. And what

Nancy: Did you find, is there, did you find it.

Bailey: Yeah. Yeah, so now what my work focuses on and certainly the research and even the Ted talk as you'll start to see was getting there.

I just wasn't as developed as I am now three years later. But if abstinence from social media, Without consequences, not an option for youth of today. The question then becomes how do we practice safe, social and what emerged in my research and in others literature, was that the most important thing bar none was how you were feeling offline.

At the time. So for example, if it almost sounded actually exactly like this, if I went to the gym that day and I feel good, then I see these fitness models. And I think okay, hashtag goals. But if I didn't go to the gym and I feel dusty, I see them and think I hate them. Okay. And again, that's not about the influencer, that's not about the content because it's about how you, what state you're in is changing, how you perceive the content, because the exact same piece of content from the exact same person can have a very different impact on two different people and a very different impact on the same person in two different hours.

Nancy: That is fascinating. And I, but I'm biased. I can see that in my life even in the past week, when we're recording this, we're at the beginning, it seems like this total orienting. And I know at the beginning of the day when I get on social and I'm feeling okay and I'm I get on it.

Okay. Excited to see what people are doing. And it builds that sense of community for me. And then by the end of the day, when my anxiety is higher, I just get on it and everything. I see this makes me feel like crap because I'm feeling like crap. Is

Bailey: that kind of what you're. Yes, totally. And it can be self-fulfilling loop because especially in a time like this, which is high stress, and everybody's got maybe more time to fail and or feeling bored.

So, it's all ends of the spectrum. Maybe you're stressed. You go online. More news and more trauma and more issues related to COVID and then you see this person posted an opinion that you think you disagree with, and then you see this person sharing their upset story. And it's just becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe even making it a little bit worse.

However, if you were feeling good and I've experienced this myself you might go online and be laughing at all the funny names being about COVID right now. And so that, that would be considered a positive experience after social media. Cause it made you happier, made you laugh more and hopefully all those things, maybe you're connecting with friends or family over video chat or something like that.

Yeah.

Nancy: So, what I like about your approach, which is different than how I've been approaching it, which is I just shamed myself whenever I get on it. Even if it's giving me, even if it's giving me good stuff, like I'm, like Facebook. I'm going to say it is so much more enjoyable now everyone's on it.

People are posting funny memes. I'm in touch with people that I haven't been in touch with, but every time I get on it, I'm like, you're a terrible person. You shouldn't be on this. So, you just said that common, how do you. Unhooking that, like that mic, there's so many messages out there about how this is so terrible.

And you're saying, whoa, it's not terrible but it, you need some time.

Bailey: Yeah, I'm saying that it doesn't have to be tight right now. It's not a great situation that I admit, especially for young people, but the reason I believe to my core enough to start another organization. It's terrible for, because we're not practicing safe social, because there's not a general understanding.

Of course, it's just new. Like it's just so recent in history that we have this risky behavior. We've very much known. Now the risks associated with using a risky behavior like sex or drugs or alcohol, simply being something where you expose yourself to potential harm. That's it. And we know that's the case with social media.

So, you have this risky behavior. That's really quite recent in terms of the grand scheme of history. And you have a lot of youth who are in a very normal stage of life, where peer to peer comparison is very normal pre social media, and now it's quantified it doesn't end and it's directly tied to you.

And that doesn't change when you become an adult. We have right now. And then of course, once you're in this risky behavior, maybe you are experiencing stress. Maybe you are being harassed or you feel depressed as a result, or you're frustrated that you can't focus. And the traditional supports that exists for other risky behaviors.

Don't exist here because maybe you want to tell a parent that you're being harassed, or maybe you want to share with a therapist, how you feel, or a teacher or an educator. And just based on the time of history, largely those people right now did not grow up with social media themselves. And sometimes a lot of them want to say things like my God, who cares if they didn't like your phone or get your head up.

Oh, go outside, like all this stuff, but honestly, just try telling the alcoholic to just put down the drink. It doesn't work that way. So, I guess to answer your question, bring it back to the positive a little bit. Yeah. Cause I rant a little bit because it's frustrating.

Nancy: No, I appreciate it. Rant away. Yeah

Bailey: It's frustrating. The lack of empathy for what is so clear to me and why I try to share this information with everyone, because I know what it's doing to the brain and then. There are forces outside of just a decision to just stop. So, I have my five steps towards safe social. And the first step is building awareness and understanding much like other risky behaviors.

So, I'm very glad to be on this podcast and that people who might be listening might even understand if they watch the Ted talk, what is a social currency or what is a highlight reel or social comparison? What are even the potential risks of using you need to start there? Do you even understand the potential risks and what to look out for?

Okay. Step two is moderating your consumption, just like any other risky behavior. Mine of choice as well.

I love one, but am I getting drunk every day? All day? No, I'm not because we have figured out how to keep ourselves safe, how to get the benefits of this delicious little effort.

With social media, it's asking yourself questions do I do this because I need it. And I feel that I need it. And my body's having a reaction when I'm not using or because I want it. Am I actually consuming things? Bring the value or bring positive at all, like connection or community or humor, or am I feeling frustrated after I use, do I forget what I've been doing for the last hour?

And so, part of what I'm doing now is creating tools to help people figure that out. Like a self-assessment called, are you addicted to social media, which is asking questions like, because I know that I know this better than everybody else. So, I want to create a self-assessment tool that can help you walk through questions without me in front of you all the time.

So maybe even things like that you would ask with other addictions, has this affected your relationships? Have you ever caught people telling you're hello; I'm talking to you, or you don't spend time with me, or have you blacked out and not remembered what you've been doing for the last hour or have you lied in maneuvered situations to go?

Social media, say you're going to the bathroom, but you're not, there's so many that you can, that's going to be quite a long self-assessment, but that's step two. Step three is building the offline soft skills and things like resilience and self-awareness and stress management. So that no matter what comes your way, because we can't control, what's going to always come our way on the Instagram explore page that you're better able to handle it and prevent yourself.

And understand yourself and know when you should not be taking it. If you are feeling depressed or lonely, and that's not the time to take a hit, unless you've seriously curated your feeds to be people that you feel truly connected to. And like they support you. And then step four is modeling good behavior.

And making sure that, especially for adults that, you're not there saying, get your head out of your phone, but you've been on your email, the whole didn't work and modeling, like modeling relationships with technology and social media or that you're not there saying I'm spreading hate. Yeah.

Complaining all the time on social media, but then also complaining that it's a toxic place, even though you have all these kids’ reading what you're posting now, you're showing them that this is okay, that's the way you behave in this space. Yeah. So, it's just all that sort of stuff. And then finally, step five is holding them responsible parties, accountable and like any other risky behavior.

It's a multi-pronged approach. So, governments can do more. The companies themselves can do more parents, educators, media are. So that's the five steps towards things.

Nancy: So, I love your comparison, which I think is dead on. And I'd never thought about it that way of alcohol.

All these other addictions and the idea that, you know, we, it, because it's so recent.

Put that in our brains, but that is, I'll be sitting, having dinner with my husband and we're in front of the TV usually. So, we already have a screen and then halfway through the meal, we're both on our phones, whether he's playing a game or I'm, and we might even still be talking, but we grabbed our phones and.

There goes our brain. So, tell me about what it does to the brain.

Bailey: Yeah. So, we are still figuring out to be honest. And I'm the first to admit that this is recent, that we're in the middle of this as we go. So, all the answers don't exist yet. For example, we don't have 50-year old’s that went through puberty with social media.

They don't exist yet. So, we don't really know the long-term consequences, positive and or negative of this many stimuli for the brain. However, what we do know already is that we are conditioning the brain to react to social media and that the addiction is very much by every measure, widespread addiction right now.

So, both physiologically and habitually. So, on one side of that, we have, say for example, chemicals like dopamine or serotonin, oxytocin, those feel-good chemicals being released every time you get a or a shot of that feel good chemical. So, what do you do to feel good? Again? You take just one more hit you take just one more post and that comment that makes you feel good.

So, we know that, especially for youth, possibly from a very young age where the brain is not fully developed yet that we are actually conditioning a response that doesn't exist in adults right now. And that's another reason why they. They might be, are trying to understand, but they're actually conditioned differently.

We know that companies are using things like red notifications because red makes the blood pump and makes you want to deal with it. So, there's all this kind of stuff. Like the brain. We know that there's like the emotional, psychological part of the brain. And then also like the biological responses that I was just describing, but the terms of emotional, psychological, We, I use social comparison theory as the basis of my research, because we've used this for, it's a general theory of belief that people compare themselves as a means of understanding their identity.

Not new way before social media, this could be very serious, or it could be as simple as I know that I'm tall because I look around and everybody else is shorter than me. And in that comparison, I understand my identity as being tall. So sometimes it's like that, but I also look into, to upward, neutral and downward comparison.

So upward being like, imagine yourself, make the comparison and deem them further up than you or better than you neutral being that they're on the same ground. And then downward being that. Imagine you looked down on them in whatever judgment. And then when you move on to something like Instagram, you have highlight reels of people, putting out their best and brightest curated, edited moments.

And now you're making maybe more frequent comparisons and more frequent, upward comparison. Which is not necessarily great if you don't see that comparison as motivating or inspiring.

Nancy: Ah, that's a great add in.

Bailey: Yeah, because what is, we're getting technical now, but hopefully your audience will appreciate this, but with the upward comparison and the downward comparison, neither are inherently good or bad even though what you hear.

So, an upward comparison. I for example, do a lot of upward comparing because I want to follow people that motivate me. So, I think you're better off financially, or I think you're more fit or whatever, because, or I think you travel more, but I see that, and I take that as motivation for the most part. And same thing with downward social comparison.

Some people. Would feel guilty that they made the downward comparison and some people, it would make them feel better about themselves because they've made themselves better off. So really, it's again, back to who you are right in with yourself.

Nancy: So, there may be. Like I know, and that goes back to how I'm feeling.

There are times when I get online and I go to Instagram and the people that I follow that are an upward comparison, make me feel challenged. And if I'm feeling crappy, I go and look at them and they make me feel bad about myself. Cause I'm not hitting where they are. Yeah. That's less about. So, are you saying that's less about the social media and more just about me being aware of where I am to say now's not the time to be on social media?

If that's making me feel bad.

Bailey: Yes. I would say that in response, if you catch yourself doing something like that, an immediate thing that you can do is say. Okay. One, who am I following? Like, why am I feeling this way? Do I even like this poster? Do I even like this content and kind of checking in with yourself that way?

And that was a real observation, no thing that I did in with my own participants. And I would make that. Go through maybe five posts on their feet or keep going through their feed. And I would say, hey wait, stop. Why did you like that? Or why are you following this person? Or did you even read the caption or how come you like every single photo?

Do you actually like that photo? Like all these kinds of questions that make them make it mindful. And so sometimes you would hear a lot of, no, I actually don't know them. I just followed them because they followed me or I don't, I know. Every time I do see their posts. It does make me feel worse off like these kinds of conversations that would maybe answer the question for you about, is this a youth thing, or can you help do, fix your feeds so that they're better for you?

And the other thing could be. Do I feel this way? No. Most of the time I like your content. So, this might be a me thing right now and I need to go figure out like, so in, in that situation that you described exactly. I know for myself, when I feel that way, like if I'm seeing someone succeed and I'm thinking even a little bit of like, why aren't I there, I know that's like a trigger for me.

I need to get to work then because I need to take action. I need to feel like I'm in control of this, of the outcome again. So, I need to, sometimes I've even taken breaks off social media, even unintentionally. Been like, oh, wow. I haven't posted in a month because I'm going to do the thing. I wouldn't have anything to talk about.

That makes me feel better when I get them,

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. What do you do? How do you like, just, I know for me, from the time I get up in the morning and it's the first thing I pick up. It's the last thing I put down my phone is, I haven't taken your assessment, but I really feel like I am the, in the addicted category and my husband would probably agree.

So not to, for you to solve my addiction in the next five minutes, but how, what steps would you give someone that's I know I have a problem. It may not be an addiction, but I know I have a problem.

Bailey: What can I do? Yeah. So, this the website, I'm like, I'm doing it right now, so it's fresh in my memory, but the website will be broken up into those five steps towards safe social.

And if you've identified, you have an issue, then it's time to go into. Step two and three. So, step two, being moderate consumption, step three, being, build the offline soft skills and these need to happen simultaneously. So, step two, I would say, and what I'm going to include in that organization would be things like answer these like a self-reflection assessment about answering those questions.

And my, do I feel like I'm on social media? All my friends are on it or because I actually take value from it. But then it's going to just go to the next step, which is ways you can moderate consumption, try these apps, try removing notifications, try removing notifications for certain things.

So that you can have to actively seek it. You actually have to make it active that you go into the app instead of passively receiving all the notifications, try moving the app to a different page. If you feel that it's mindless and that you're just logging in without knowing you can try if it's a time issue that you feel that you're having try tracking your time, try leaving it across the thing like the Room, but we're getting into light ones now, but just the same with alcohol.

You might need to take a break, like you might need to experience some withdrawals for a bit and detox a little bit so that you can remind yourself what it's like to operate without and remind the brain. So, then the next phase of that is that if you really want to build long-term solutions for dealing in this world, you need to work on things like resilience and self-awareness and building your community.

And so that's why I'm also going to include some of skills, camps, activities in there, real activities that you can do solo for building your like answering things about coping strategies, things that you can come back to later when you are in a time of need. And then finally, I think one thing I might also include.

An early iteration of this organization is, I don't know if it's going to be used or not. There's, I'm going to include resources of course, to things like kids, help phone and mental health services, depending on really, if you're, even if you're just frustrated all the way to, if you're feeling suicidal because of what you're experiencing online.

But I also was thinking, should I even just include, I know that community is important to this. Just like every other whisky behavior. Is there a way that I could have an hour long, weekly zoom? Group sessions, like a weekly group session and we always have it. You can come, you can join.

It's going to be there. Maybe nobody comes, but that you can talk to other people about what you're experiencing. So, I know. Yeah. So that's where I'm at right now.

Nancy: I love that idea. I mean, I think that is because it is such a unique. I know that I am, and I'm just laying myself bare here on the podcast, but I know like comparatively to, when I talk about how much I use my phone in comparison to.

The people around me, they're like, whoa, like I have a problem. So, it would be helpful to be able to go talk about it with other people that get that,

Bailey: I'd say that the most important thing also though, I'm like going to, it might seem I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not. And I'll explain why, but I still say the most important thing for you is that if other people think you use your phone a lot because like I just suggested time on social media in the literature was not actually a good indicator of anything.

It was not. So you could, if you're having a really bad time for 15 minutes, that could do more harm to you than if you're having a good time for six and using it for work, it's just quality of the time. So I would say one. Good. Yeah. So start there, but also for you yourself. I'm not imposing this on you, but someone who I would say, maybe ask these questions.

If you're in a similar situation would be you, if you leave, you use it before bed and you use it when you wake up, as I do, like I do have I sometimes like to go on Reddit before bed or watch some YouTube and I like it like. I still like it, and I still don't feel bad about it. And I wake up in the morning and I usually read my email digest of the news and check Instagram and Facebook messages.

And I don't have a problem with it either. Like it's not negatively harming my effect or my mood and it's not harming my productivity. I, and it's not harming my relationships. So, I think that, and most importantly, I don't feel guilty about. Whereas, if you are feeling like, oh, I'm using so much of this, I do want to reduce it, then yes.

Take it. But if you're not, you don't need to take someone else's prescription of they think is okay. That's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully that might make people, some people feel better. Like you don't have to create a problem if there isn't one, if you have two glasses of wine a night, some will, some people would be really uncomfortable with a glass of red wine at night and they'd be like, you drink every day.

Yes, I yeah. Okay. On average would have a glass today. Sometimes it's none, but sometimes it's two. Some people would be deeply like that. Wouldn't even like they would feel guilty and that's what matters. To the mental health side.

Nancy: Right? Totally. No, I hear what you're saying. Because I think it is, because I use it when I get up in the morning.

And I it's part of my ritual, like to check Facebook and check Instagram and I enjoy, I do enjoy it. Like I, cause I've and I've read, but don't put your phone, don't open your phone for two hours and just let your brain. But my anxiety actually decreases. When I check social media right away because I just enjoy it and I feel connected and it's just a fun thing to do for my kitchen.

And then before I go to bed every night, I actually read the New York times and lay in bed and read it on my phone. And it is, people will be like, oh my gosh, you're reading the news. And it's so stressful. But for some reason in my bed, it feels safe. It's not, it doesn't bother, like to your point does not negatively affect me now

Bailey: I'm very specific though about, what I do like to read in the morning and at night, because it probably would annoy me if I started with Twitter in the morning.,

Nancy: yes. Yeah, because I like, I have dogs that I follow and, like just things that make me happy in the morning. But where I noticed it and not to make this all about me, but I'm going to make it all about me.

Where I notice it, a lot is like when I'm working. And I'll be like, oh, let me just check Facebook. And then I like am down in the yeah. I'm down the rabbit hole.

Bailey: Yeah. That came up a lot in my work as well. Frustration with the mindlessness feeling like you don't have. Yes.

Nancy: So, talk to me about that.

Bailey: So that did come up a lot. The mindlessness of it almost again, feeling like you are doing something without control over your own mind in a way. And or being loose. And at that point, it is actually affecting your work. Like it's affecting yourself. You need to have, if you feel like, for example, that you don't have a stopper, you might need to stop it in the middle of the day.

For example, some people will say, oh, I'm just going to go on for 15 minutes and then get back to work. If you don't have that stopper yet, like if you don't have the discipline yet then you might not, that might not be okay for you in the middle of the day. Okay. Or you might need to set there's apps that for example enforce time limits.

So, you can add this yourself. You can even ask an accountability buddy, to do it for you. That, for example, like a parent has to be like, you can't turn it back on yourself. Someone else has got to turn it back on. I've hit my hours, and this is where you do need external help. Like someone else taking the alcohol out of the room for you.

Nancy: I just add on time, like it says you have exceeded your time, and I'm like, okay, I just need to add more time.

Bailey: But yeah. And the other thing is so for example, my partner, he uses this method called the dash method. I don't, I lie. It's called the Pomodoro technique. Oh yes. Yeah. I've talked about that. Yeah.

So, he loves that. Yeah. So, the 25 on 25, off 25 on five off for like this whole system. But at least then when he's focused, he knows he's going to have the time. I will be able to, I have distraction time, like booked in a way, right? Yeah. So, then you just get into the system of, oh, I know.

I'll get to that later, but I know that I'm getting back to this work now. And there's no one solution for anybody, unfortunately, which is why we do have to try different things and why I want to provide more of that. More than one strategy for people.

Nancy: Yeah. I love what you're saying.

Because like I've even what I, that the twenty-five what happens to me. I changed course. What happens to me is all Facebook then leads to Instagram, which leads to Twitter, which leads to, checking mighty networks, which is a thing that I belong to, which leads to checking my email. And then that takes me, 20 minutes.

Oh, maybe I missed something on Facebook. So, then we just start the pattern over again. And so, I appreciate, but what I hear the most from your message is you can implement all the strategies you want, which may be helpful. But the bigger picture here is you have to be bringing mindfulness.

Do this activity. Yes, because it is a risky behavior.

Bailey: Yes. If I was blindly drinking every night, you would say, I have an issue. If I am getting off this just seems, it seems lower risk. It seems oh, who cares? But that's just because drinking and drugs, these things have been around so long.

There are biblical rules against them. So, we know. The risks here. We know them biologically socially, behaviorally physiologically Reno. So, we don't we know there's risks here. We are figuring them out. But we actually are in the middle of it. This very well could have longer term and more widespread effects on the collective wellbeing of us.

And we are living it right now. This more clearly, even though a hundred years. So, you're right. That this bigger picture is that we are being mindful about it, that this content we're taking in is definitely informing who we are. It's informing. What we know about the world, what we believe about others, it's informing what we believe about ourselves, what we see as our identity or regular.

If we feel guilty, like this is very much affecting our life, which means it needs to be mindful because who knows, if you're getting off Instagram and you don't know what you've seen for the last time, The images are still implanted on your brain. And this has been shown by subconscious visually visualization.

But even if you're shown a bunch of images in the background that people can still remember them, stuff like that, we know that it's going to your brain, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the tendency is to, you recognize just in anytime we're making an, a general change, you recognize something as a problem.

And so, you demonize it. And then you slowly bring it back to how can I live with it? This is not if you have an addiction, obviously. I'm not talking about moderation and alcohol, if you're an addict, but I am talking about how do I use it in moderation and the only way to do that. Yeah.

If I am, which I don't do. So that's why you've really helped me. If I can be more intentional about how I'm using it and not because my tendency is to demonize it all the time. And yeah.

Bailey: For yourself.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. So, you've helped me on two levels, one, and hopefully you've helped. Some of the people listening is one to recognize it.

Isn't all terrible and it does bring some good things to my life and to, I need to be intentional in how I'm using it and aware of how I'm feeling. Yeah, it was and aware of who I'm following and why I'm following them and not just be like, oh, they're following me. Like I do a ton of that. I don't want to upset them.

So let me make sure I liked them.

Bailey: Which is, it does not sound like, oh, I just had the beer because I didn't want my friends to think I'm right. Exactly. That's totally it.

Nancy: And even when I've tried to get off social media, what has brought me back, which was enjoyable, but what brought me back was that I missed like my cousins, baby announcement, and you miss stuff, you miss the good stuff.

Yeah. But even being a tension about who I'm letting in. To my brain through social media.

Bailey: It's you can control this, so don't let it control you. Yeah.

Nancy: I love what you're doing. I have not, I've done a lot of research of my own obviously, because I'm really concerned about it. I've never heard it presented like this. This is so great.

Bailey: Not great that it's not easier to find. I'm trying to fix that over COVID but I'm also. This is why it's so important to me because when I just know that I would be laughed out of a high school class. If I told them they had to get off, wait, it has to be about social. It has to be about safe, social cause abstinence education doesn't work really anywhere,

Nancy:

I'm blown away. So, thank you. I, you made me feel better about my own situation and gave me some tools for moving forward, which is a double you can't ask for more than that from an interview, man.

So where can people find out more about this. I know you're in the process,

Bailey: but yeah, right now you can follow me at Bailey Parnell on everything.

And especially, probably I'm most active on Instagram. And I will definitely put out when safe social has fully moved out and is out there in the world. And of course, Bailey parnell.com is my website where you can see also a bunch of other videos about this topic and stuff like that. Oh, and of course, hashtag safe sex.

Nancy: Okay, cool. Thanks. I'm glad you shared that.

I want to highlight the two takeaways that resonated the most with me. Number one, recognizing that social media isn't all bad. And my tendency to shame myself about using it actually makes it worse. And number two, social media is an activity like alcohol, which means we need to use it in moderation.

We need to bring more intention to our social media usage and not just allow it to mindlessly take up space in our lives. These interviews on avoidance are showing me that there's so much more to avoiding that appears on the surface societal messages, cultural norms, and our own shaming can cause these techniques to spiral out of control.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 128: Eating Your Anxiety

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Erica Drewry a Registered Dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor avoidance, and how it plays out with food.

Chocolate, ice cream, chips, cheese balls, Ho-Hos, and Junior Mints. My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a global pandemic–at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats. 

When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses, my first thought was: Oh no! Do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry, wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown.

I immediately opened an Instacart account and started making my list. 

I was going to be ready for what was coming.

All this month I am talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. 

Today I am talking with Erica Drewry about avoidance and how it plays out with food. 

Erica is a registered dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of Aligned Nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in person and virtually.  

This topic is very personal to me and I am so excited for you to hear our conversation!  It is an open and honest (at times very vulnerable!) conversation about food, anxiety, and avoidance. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story of how I use food to avoid. 

We recorded it just 2 weeks ago so it’s a message of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic that couldn’t have come at a better time. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What might be behind our tendency to eat when we are bored, and why I filled my Instacart with junk food

• How binging and restricting go hand and hand, even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting

• What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society

• What role society plays in our relationship with food

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Aligned Nutrition

• @alignednutrition (on Facebook, Youtube, & Instagram)

+ Read the Transcript

Erica: So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?

Nancy: When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses.

My first thought was, oh my God, do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry. Wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown, I immediately signed on to Instacart and started making my list. Chocolates, ice cream chips, cheese ball Ho-Hos. And of course, junior mints.

My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a pandemic, at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats, I was going to be ready for what was coming.

You are listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and release. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month. I’m talking with the experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today, we are talking about avoidance and how it plays out with food. This topic is very personal to me, which you will definitely hear in the interview.

Today’s guest Erica Drewry was sharing that her favorite interviews around food. I, when the host asked her own personal questions. So, I took that as an opportunity. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story and how I use food to avoid. Erica is a registered dietician and a certified, intuitive eating counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of align nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in-person and virtually. I am so excited for you to hear our conversation.

It is an open and honest and at times, very vulnerable conversation about food anxiety and avoiding it. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So, it’s messages of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn’t have come at a better time. Erica and I talk about what might be behind our tendency to eat when we’re bored and why I filled my Instacart with junk food.

The answer might really surprise you how bingeing and restricting go hand in hand. Even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting. Because I didn’t and I was really worried. What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society and society’s role in our relationship with food.

I am so excited to have Erica drew here to talk to us about nutrition and eating and all that stuff that comes as a big one for avoiding. So welcome, Erica.

Erica: Thank you for having me.

Nancy: I have to share that Erica is a friend of mine, so that’s an even more fun of an interview to do because we talk frequently.

And so, I’m really excited to have her here and be able to pick her brain about this particular subject. Okay, so I’m just going to dive right. In recently, you wrote a post about eating when you’re bored and here we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic and boredom for some of us is, I guess, boredom and anxiety.

Because not all of us are bored. Those who are staying at home with their kids and dealing with all that. But I really want to, I really want to hear your take on that. And tell us more about that blog post or, your, I gave you multiple questions there with the boredom and the COVID-19, but let’s just dump into boredom and where you can dive into the COVID-19.

That’d be cool.

Erica: Perfect. Yeah, I think what has happened is that with COVID-19, it’s exacerbated underlying things that we might be feeling in our day to day. And so, I am somebody that doesn’t believe outright in boredom eating, and the reason for that. And I think as a therapist, you will appreciate this.

I think there are better questions. And I think the one I, when I’ve been working with clients over the years, I’ve realized that boredom eating is a blanket state. There’s usually something else going on. And so, it’s not that people don’t feel bored, or they know something’s off, but I think what is actually happening is that they’re disconnected in some way.

So always say, you’re not bored, you’re disconnected. And so, let’s find you some better ways to address that because, typically the antidote to boredom. Finding something to do, right? Whether that’s a hobby or a passion or quality time with someone you care about, but we may be missing the point with that, and so I always say, some of the better questions are going to be thinking about whether yeah. Life balance in your life, the big parts of your life, job relationships, money are those in balance because that could be something that’s leading you to be disconnected from yourself or a bigger worry where you might be turning to food.

Another thing we could be thinking about is, do you need more rest, or do you need more play, or do you need something to look forward to doing you need a change of scenery? So, it was like again, with boredom eating, we may not be addressing some of those things. You may just be distracting yourself when you actually need to take a nap.

Okay. And then another thing to think about with boredom eating is when. You might be avoiding something. I figured we could dive into that a little bit

Nancy: Yes. That I was, but yeah, I think that’s a big one right there.

Erica: It is. And from talking to my community and then in my work with clients, I think that’s one of the biggest ones is that you are avoiding something.

So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?

Nancy: How do you I know even with this, COVID-19 like we had gone to the grocery store, we had gotten the necessities and then once, our governor put down the order that we were going to be here for two weeks, I like, it was my first priority I had. Fill up my Instacart. I had to get ice cream and chocolate. And like even a couple of days later, I said to my husband, I don’t know that I even got like enough real food because I’ve bought so many snacks and was just like totally sugar buying. I recognize that was happening, like I knew when I was shopping on Instacart that I was doing it, what would you recommend to pull back?

Erica: Yeah. It sounds like that kind of scarcity and anxiety was triggered. So, we think, okay, we’ve got to stock up. And then we also have an abundance of food around us that we may not usually have, I’ve talked with several people who were like, oh, I don’t keep that much stuff in my house because then I’ll eat it all.

And so now you’re in this situation where, given the orders that we were given, we want to be careful and go ahead and have food that’s available for us when we need it. And. That can be really uncomfortable. How do you deal with having more food on hand than usual or foods that you might not have as much of, and you’re right?

And that you can’t have as many foods that are going to expire within days. You might’ve run out of salad last week, but you still have chocolate because it’s more shelf stable. And I think we get a lot of those messages of, always shop on the outside of the grocery store, all the fresh things.

Here we are having this challenge now; we really needed to learn how to like stock a pantry and have snacks and have things in our freezer and maybe eat things that are more convenience foods or more processed, and that are less perishable challenges. Some of those expectations.

Nancy: that’s what it is.

So, for me has always been so hard with food and it is a way I avoid, it totally, I can think of nothing that brings me more joy than, having a bag of Reese cups and being able to sit on the couch and just have permission to eat as much as I want. And sometimes that’s okay.

And it’s unhooking all the old food rules I have. And I have a ton of them from, being in college and being super militant and doing weight Watchers and losing 30 pounds and then regaining it. And, like all that stuff piles up over time. How do you separate out the food crap from the what’s really going on mentally and emotionally?

Oh, I know I’m totally going off script here and I apologize.

Erica: Okay. I think it links up with where we wanted to talk about that kind of shoulds. And so, it’s a great question because it is a lot of work to sort through both, and how do you know whether it’s all of your food rules rearing up and all of the leftover diet crap that you’re dealing with.

And then when is it that you have a legitimate need for something? And that’s why I think when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, I see it as nutrition as a form of self-care because you’re looking at, oh gosh, you know what a day it’s been, I’m really uncertain about tomorrow.

I’m feeling anxious. You’re not committing any crimes by eating some Reese. But you’re doing yourself a disservice. If you’re not eating Reese cups and asking yourself, what do I need right now? Is it, some fresh air? Is it, completing a task that you’ve been avoiding or dealing with some feelings that you haven’t been wanting to feel?

It’s I think we can do both. And that’s where we don’t want to overly pathologize and should all over ourselves for emotional eating. Because we’re emotional beings, we’re going to be eating and feeling emotions at the same time. And you can soothe with food. It’s just relatively ineffective.

It’s really the only way that you can deal with it.

Nancy: That’s helpful because it is just, I was even thinking, as you were talking, I was thinking like I have all the rules. And I never stepped back to say, to ask myself, how does you know, it’s a relatively recent thing for me. I would say that I am recognizing like, when you’re eating the Reese cups girl, your stomach’s upset.

You don’t feel good, but not, but even some of that is still blaming it on the food. I don’t stop to pull back and say, what’s really going on. What are you trying to avoid? What are you missing? What’s the tough thing you’re trying to get away from, which I think is what you’re saying?

Erica: absolutely.

And you’re seeing it as an indicator, I’m reaching for the bag of Reese cups and, am I hungry? Yeah. This is snack time or no, I don’t think so. And then you proceed, you, you can choose to proceed or not, and neither way is right or wrong. And so, then if you proceed, it might be reflecting on it afterwards.

Gosh, I’m not feeling so well. I wonder what was going on before. I did that. And I wonder what I need to do now. And it’s like honoring both that there’s this dynamic interplay between the food and the emotions. And so how do you handle like feeding yourself in a way that feels good. And then how do you handle taking good care of your emotional health.

And making sure they don’t get too interconnected

Nancy: Because all of the Weightwatchers and all of the diets, or even, healthy eating plans, whatever you want to call them, they’re still pulling you outside of someone else’s telling me what to do. Yes. I’m not listening to myself. I’m following someone else’s rules, which is why for people with high-functioning anxiety that is so attractive because we want someone else to tell me what to do.

If someone else tells me what to do, I don’t have to think about it, and I can just follow the rules if I know I’m doing it right. And it’s really clear. And so for me, that has always been so hard since I recognize that if I follow it, one of those plans that happens, but I haven’t been able to figure out what to do instead.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re highlighting a really important concept of that kind of external-internal influence. And so, when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, it is starting to see the difference of external-internal. And that’s where kind of recognizing some of these old food rules oh my gosh, I’m feeling guilty about eating this snack.

And I just realized it’s because it’s 8:15, and I, once upon a time, I heard that it was bad to eat after 8:00 PM. External feeling that guilt. And then at that point, you can go, oh my gosh, that was just a silly food rule I had from way back when I think talked about it in the nineties. And it’s not applicable to me at this moment in time.

And then you move on, but it could also, yeah. Yeah. I think that when it comes to sorting through some of that. It can, when I’m working with people through this process, you feel that. Kind of devil and angel on your shoulder where you’re going back and forth. So, it’s almost like because you were used to giving so much of your power away.

Give me the program, give me the I’ll follow it. I’ll do whatever. Then you’ve lost out on your own autonomy. So, it’s almost like you’re suddenly trying to figure it out for yourself, and you feel like you have a blindfold on, and earmuffs and you are just trying to sort it out, and you have almost no structure.

And that can feel difficult. And that’s why, I guess when we were talking about bored a minute earlier, one of the questions I always recommend people also ask themselves, was I actually hungry? And so, if you’re regularly eating very chaotically, then that can feel difficult to know what is going on.

Although a specific structure, but if you’re, quote-unquote, emotionally eating at 8:15 PM and you had a yogurt for lunch and no breakfast, then let’s not forget that you’re hungry and that you’re again, not committing any crime. Or emotionally eating, you just happen to be hungry and have a certain feeling about it.

Nancy: So, go back to the beginning. And like that, when we think of emotional eating, a lot of times, like for me, I think of bingeing, like I like, it’s an uncontrollable, I’m going to go from ice cream to Reese cups. I’m not necessarily like for me; it isn’t necessarily like I’m going to drive through the drive-through and get.

10 tacos and then go to KFC and get a bucket of chicken. It’s just like I’m overeating.

Erica: It’s all in this range. I see on the spectrum.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense, but then emotionally, it takes a lot of different, it’s not. It’s also restricting which you talk about, which I would never like that didn’t, which I can look back now in my twenties when I was restricting and my thirties and be like, oh yeah, that was equally heady.

It was equally as bingeing. So, talk to me about that a little bit.

Erica: Yeah. It’s you’re hitting on something important, right? In terms of where people will cycle through different behaviors with food. So, it’s pretty common that we start looking for help with our eating problems. Once we do start bingeing and most people are pretty satisfied with restricting unless it becomes less, it becomes a significant problem where they’re found out by their parents or they’re thinking about food so much that they can’t pay attention in their regular lives, or maybe they.

Get an overuse injury due to malnutrition, or they think too much of their life has taken up thinking about food. But most of the time, yeah, people have a combination of all the above and in the way I do divide, it is thinking about, are you someone that tends to turn towards food when you’re anxious or away from food when you’re anxious?

Because what’s happening biologically is that when we’re anxious, blood is being shunted away from our intestines and we’re in that kind of fight or flight. So, some people, their appetite immediately goes away. And there they are like, I’m not hungry for breakfast. I know I should eat it, but I just can’t.

And then other people are nervously picking or grazing or snacking or eating beyond fullness, but it’s all in a similar. Emotional response. It’s just, it plays out differently.

Nancy: Okay. That’s fascinating. I just think it’s when I thought of that, I was like, oh yeah, and both are, you’re still outside of your yourself.

Erica: It’s not normal. That’s what I say to my clients who tend to go towards restriction and they’re trying to heal their food relationship. You’re like I didn’t feel hungry. That’s abnormal that you typically breakfast and then one day you’re not hungry.

It’s important to check in with yourself. Hey, what’s going on? Why am I not hungry for breakfast? That’s odd. There’s something off here. And I think that’s where the cultural stuff comes in where it’s just going to say that. Yeah. So, praise that restriction that restraint. And so, people have to really talk themselves into going against that because it feels wrong to eat.

When you’re not feeling those hunger cues, but like we were saying, it’s that same level of disconnection, your head and your body are not connected in that moment. That’s why sometimes you go into that trance, and then you wake up and you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m so full. I’m so uncomfortable.

Why did I eat all of those things? But in the moment, you were disconnected until you. Woke up and came present again.

Nancy: Yeah, that’s so true. And I was because I was going to say there’s so much positive for restricting. All the diets are teaching us to restrict, and I have power if I restrict and that becomes a, a power trip like.

If I can do it, then I’m a better person than the person that has no control.

Erica: Absolutely. And everyone who is the type of person that feels out of control, wants to be the person that restricts, but the people who restrict want you to know that it’s just as bad. It’s just as miserable.

Nancy: Oh, that’s good to know.

Yeah, because even yesterday I noticed, I was laughing. I was laughing about it because my reaction to anxiety is usually to graze and yesterday, or the day before they all run together at this point. Yeah. What day is it?

Erica: It’s a day.

Nancy: I was so anxious. I wasn’t hungry, and I, and it was, and because that’s unusual for me, I said to me, I really stopped.

It was like, girl, you got to settle. You are so hopped up that you, your stomach is so there’s so much adrenaline going on that you’re not hungry. And so I was, and because I hadn’t eaten, it was making it worse. Absolutely. And so, it was just spinning. Yeah. And I think that’s just so that again, but because it’s unusual for me, that’s how I recognized it to change.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve actually noticed that quite a bit with my clients is that. If even if they tend to do one thing, a different type of stress, or maybe even a more significant stress will lead to, hey, I usually turn towards food and for whatever reason, I haven’t been hungry at all. Sometimes that indicates that we’re in really unchartered territory here.

There’s a more significant stressor, yeah. That’s just how your body’s responding.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because I can remember like when my dad was in the hospital, I didn’t eat, it’s I have to be really extreme, but if I’m just going through life, I tend to the food is what I crave. Yeah. And I know one of my biggest reasons for craving it.

, you talked about the devil and angel, and I talk about the monger and the BFF, and I know you’re familiar with those characters. But my BFF gets is all about the food, go ahead, go through Starbucks, get the crappy Chino, go ahead. Stop at Walgreens, get the bag of Reese cups.

I know on my way to work a lot of times I am like fighting myself. From stopping to pick up food and it’s just purely for the reward. Yeah. It’s that’s all it is. It’s just a little bit of a, I’m being a bad girl. Is that common? What’s that about? Do you have any thoughts on it?

Erica: Yeah, I a hundred percent. It is very common because it’s almost like you do swing between these extremes of okay. So even if you’re somebody who doesn’t tend to restrict regularly. If you’re typically turning towards food, you’re still having restrictive thoughts. The thoughts that say don’t do that.

You better not. Why would you do that again? And that, that monger voice is what is creating that feeling of restriction and that feeling of deprivation. So, we respond to the deprivation with. Let’s go ahead and take care of that. Let’s go ahead and treat yourself. You’ve earned this, and some of its perceived, some of it’s real.

So sometimes it may be, oh, I only ate a little bit for lunch today, so let’s swing through dairy queen on the way home. I really earned it. And then other times it’s just that perception. Where maybe you’re having a negative body image kind of spiral. And so then through that negative body image, you start, the mocker starts to kick into food of, hey, you should really start Weight Watchers again.

Why don’t you just download the app? Why don’t you think about that? And that deprivation that gets triggered it’s it creates you being obsessed with food. It creates more of an interest in food and a desire for the food that you just told yourself not to have. And it’s, ah, that the antidote is to find that kind of neutral observer to both, and really seeing them both play out with each other where maybe the BFS gets transformed into this BFF.

That’s a little more. Calm and compassionate and hey, what do you need right now? And then the longer, we’re disarming a little bit with, like I got you. You’re trying to protect me. You’re trying to help me establish some boundaries. I know I’ve always followed external plans and I’m just looking for that structure again.

And so, it’s like, how can we get them to be cohesive with each other? Without swinging back and forth between the two extremes and in the food healing relationship, we still swing back and forth a little bit. It’s just less intense and less severe of a swing. So, it doesn’t feel so horrible.

Nancy: And that’s, what’s amazing about that is. I don’t even recognize all my restrictive thoughts. Yeah. I’m I, so when you said that I was like, oh yeah. Even I can notice. Because I have, because I think about it all the time. Like I think about the Reese peanut butter eggs that I have down in the cabinet and how much I love them.

And then I’ll be like, no, you can’t have any like that. That’s going back and forth and like in, but one of my favorite things, like I really enjoy, I know I always enjoy having one with my coffee, which sounds. Crazy

Erica: It sounds Parisian, yeah.

Nancy: Little chocolate with my coffee

And so, it brings me a lot of joy and I love it. And so that, but so I can once I realized that I can just have one. And let it go. But it’s the later in the day when I’ve been telling myself all day long unconsciously that then I’m just like, screw it. I’m going in. And I just have, two or three.

Erica: So, might as well. It’s a once you’ve whether it’s broken a perceived rule it’s almost like you said, it builds up throughout the day, how you’ve eaten has become an unacceptable to that Monger part of you. And so, then the BFF steps in and goes we can’t please.

That guy. So, let’s just go ahead and we might as well, or I had one, so I might as well have more. And that’s where I think that deprivation that we felt for so many years of when you were on Weight Watchers and you weren’t eating the thing or all the times you told yourself not to, that is so built up and so strong.

Because even if you’ve been telling yourself I shouldn’t be having the Reese cup eggs all spring, it is almost even if you’ve been eating them, but you’re telling yourself not to have them. It’s like you haven’t had it. The satisfaction is completely wiped out. And that’s hard for us to understand.

So, you think, oh my gosh, I’ve been eating these Reese cups all week, but if you’ve been telling yourself, you shouldn’t be, or you were allowed, and then now you went overboard because I perceived how you did it was wrong. And it just eliminates that. And you’re almost back at ground zero. Experiencing severe deprivation around it.

Yeah.

Nancy: That’s very well said because I’ll sneak them, so my husband doesn’t see, because I’d put my monger onto him that he’s judging me. So, I’ll, he’ll be down in the basement, and I’ll shove a Reese cup in my mouth really quick, which I don’t taste it. It doesn’t have any of the joy, like the morning one does that is no one has ever explained it to me.

That way, the restriction piece that is that’s really the point.

Erica: It is, it’s so hard for those of us that have felt like we have no willpower and we’re eating all the time to even identify with restriction as being the problem. But it is the sole driver. In fact, when I’m working with people who tend towards turning away from food and people who tend towards turning towards food, the treatment is the same.

We are working at it in the same way. Wow.

Nancy: That is fascinating. Yeah. And again, it’s back to the original point. You spoke. Of building that connection with myself to know, what’s really going on here and paying attention to the thoughts all day that are so restrictive because part of them, the other thing and B is that, because I am so was so militant in my twenties and thirties that the idea of someone telling me what to do that when I follow even health at any size people, or I find it frustrating because they’re not telling me what to do.

Yes. They’re just being like, do whatever you want. And that just triggers me all over the place. Is that common?

Erica: Absolutely. Because it’s almost the way I think of it is it’s almost like being thrown into the ocean. With a little life raft and that’s it. And because you were so used to following a plan and then it’s this free fall, and you’re just bobbing in the water, and you feel so lost.

And so, for some people, they may find that learning to eat. And what does enough really look like? So, if you were doing weight Watchers for so many years, you might say, oh the vegetable soup, that is enough points and that’s what I’m going to use for my meal. And so that’s that, but now when you’re learning to eat enough, that may not be adequate.

It may be, having a bowl of vegetable soup with a grilled cheese on the side. And so, you’re learning to eat in a way that’s not restricted and that can feel really foreign. And so, I think. I think we all want to know how to eat, but the point of health at every size and intuitive eating is to figure out what that looks like for you.

And that feels so foreign, because we all experience everyone’s opinion about food or every diet plan or every, nutrition guru has their own method of what, the best way of eating. And even in nutrition research, we’re always, we’re very reductive. We’re looking for, what is, what’s the correlation here and what does that mean?

Does that mean that this is the healthiest food, and we should avoid this one? And so, it’s, you’re really just navigating these waters that have no. They have no chartered path. And so, you it’s normal to feel completely out of control. And it just depends, like some people do find that they need to work with a dietician to understand what their body needs and it, again, it’s a very addictive way.

Let’s make sure you’re having enough. What does a meal look like? Are you eating meals? Are you eating snacks? And just getting back to that, like basic, because it’s not your fault. It gets decided. After following diet plans for so many years, I had a client it’s then I had half of a grapefruit.

That’s not really a breakfast, but it was a breakfast on a diet plan that she followed for years. It’s almost, that’s why I think it’s a lot of that like forgetting what you’ve learned and trying to. Just really start to learn. What does it feel like to be connected to your body?

Nancy: Because that’s, what’s always challenging for me about, when I’ve started, I’ll start doing intuitive eating and the idea of eating, whatever you want. And you’re like, and, but I miss the next step, which is very important, pay attention to how it feels when you’re eating whatever you want, or, like when you actually eat the full bag of Reese cups, but I’m not.

So, I missed that part, but I also am missing the restriction part of the judgment that I’m putting on myself when I’m doing all that. Because it, it sounds fabulous, but it in, but in practice I’m having to unlearn all the patterns that I’ve had.

Erica: Yes. And that’s why the first principle of intuitive eating is reject diet culture.

And that is the hardest one because it, as though, as you’re going through the food healing and intuitive eating process, those diet thoughts keep coming up and up. I usually have my clients start with satisfaction, and that’s learning both from a physical standpoint and a mental standpoint. So, are you eating what you think you should, or are you eating what is going to satisfy you?

And then are you are eating enough to the point where you’re going to feel full. And so, like you’ve experienced, okay. Hey, I’m just eating what I want, and then I feel terrible afterwards because there’s also habituation that kind of comes in. So even if you’re, if you keep going at it with the receipt, Eventually and the idea isn’t to burn out and never want it again, it’s not a punitive thing, but if you ate Reese cups for dinner every night for a week, I would argue that at the end of that week, you legitimately would want something different.

And so, it’s that trust part. And I think it’s hard to. Because we’ve learned like an all or nothing mentality. You’re following this plan, or you’re not following the plan. And so that’s I’m guessing with the Reese cups and that when you felt like swinging back and forth, that is the one that you’ll have to.

Am I being all or nothing? Maybe it’s having a Turkey sandwich and a handful of Reese cups for dinner or for lunch or something like that. And you’re having both, and you’re giving yourself that permission without having to be I’m either not eating the RACI cups or I’m eating all of

them.

Nancy: Yeah. And this, and to be clear, like to the people that are listening, I’m not looking to lose weight like this. Isn’t about this conversation. Isn’t about give me the tips to lose weight. It’s the, how do I heal this relationship I have with food that has gotten way distorted and.

And out of control and I don’t even argue, like out of control would just say it’s gotten distorted. And so, I’m doing a lot more emotional eating that I want to be doing. Because it’s distorted. Yes. And I think that so often when we talk about food and weight loss go together as if they’re the same thing and they’re not.

Erica: Yeah. And that’s what, when it comes to healing your relationship with food and weight loss, we have to set the weight aside, and that’s hard to do, we always want to lose weight well, feel better. All of these things that we think will come will be more worthy. We’ll look better, we’ll be happier or whatever.

And the foundation of nutrition, I believe, is your relationship with food. I believe that is the absolute foundation that anything we’re doing with food has to be built on a solid. Relationship with it. And that way, it’s like how, it’s, how we’re hearing messages, as well. And so, it, that’s why it’s really the most important thing that we can do for ourselves.

If you’re eating all the sweet potatoes and all the kale and all of the tofu, but you’re anxious all the time and disconnected from yourself. Is the cortisol pumping through your body. That’s not good for us either. And so, I think that really bringing those two parts together and focusing on the relationship with food and then the rest will follow.

That’s why with intuitive eating, it’s saying, hey, let’s figure this part out. And then you can talk about nutrition later. And I think, also what you were saying. With, the disordered eating that you’ve experienced it’s as a result of dieting, intuitive eating has over 90 studies supporting it.

And one of the things that we know is that a side effect of dieting for years is binge eating. Overeating higher body mass index. So, it’s a result of, it’s not a personal failure.

Nancy: That is helpful

Because what my monger tells me is, oh, the reason I am so overweight is because I’ve just let myself go. Yes. You know that I can’t control it. Like I used to that if I would. And so, her, messages always go back to being restrictive. You need to go back to Weight watchers.

You need to go back to that, which creates the cycle, as you’re saying.

Erica: And then what other industry do we think that. If you order something in the mail and it comes broken, hey, you guys got to take this back. It’s defective. You don’t say, oh, I must have dropped it on my way coming in.

So, it’s my fault.

Nancy: So true.

Erica: You, we should get some refunds for, diets over the years (laughing)

Nancy: yes. Yeah. Yeah, because I can remember. My best friend was getting married, and I was doing Weight Watchers because I was going to be in the wedding. And I can picture this day as clear as --it was her wedding shower and one of the hosts had made awesome pecan pie.

And everyone was raving about it, but I did not eat it because I was doing Weight Watchers. And at the time, I was so proud of myself, and everyone was commenting on my control and yeah. And how I could do it, that, and I was like, yeah, so great doing this. And the number of times I thought to myself, if I could go back and eat that freaking piece of pie, I would, that just felt so miserable at the time everyone’s eating, I’m not eating, everyone’s giving me these accolades and I’m like, this is stupid.

You’re like a big part of me knew it was stupid, but I kept sticking with it, and missing stuff.

Erica: And that’s where I think the distorted, the restriction, the restraint, the deprivation, that’s where this is all it is eating and dieting and being restrictive and all of these messages that we receive and internalize, they take us away from what really matters.

They take us away from being present. And so, I think, yeah, at the time you were so in it, you didn’t realize that. And then now on the other side, you’re thinking, gosh, I really missed out. And here I am, however, many years later, I’m not going to get some award for having been the most restrained that day

Nancy: It is interesting how you can go back and feel that sense of pride, and that, and, and then you can get into my dad was that way. Like you can get back into all the history of where those messages came from. I always joke that I still eat because I’m still stuck in these patterns as if I was in the nineties.

Yeah. So, I still eat, it’s I went, I was hungry before we got on the call and I was, and I’m trying to eat more protein because I eat mostly carbs because protein was bad. And like I got some ham where you can’t have ham, it has fat in it. That’s one of my weird rules.

Erica: It was low fat for so long.

And now it’s more low carb. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I still eat that way because I’m still following the crazy rules. Yes. Yeah. It’s it perpetuates itself. And so, what you’re saying is basically the same thing I’m saying to my clients is building self-loyalty. Yeah. Yes.

Erica: And that’s what you’re restoring autonomy.

You’re restoring trust with yourself because you, when you’re following the rules of a diet, and then you conclude that you. Failed at it. All of a sudden you don’t trust yourself. I can’t be trusted with food. Oh, I ate that thing, and it wasn’t on my plan. And so now I, again, I can’t be trusted. And so that is really damaging.

Yeah. You’re betraying yourself. And like you said, it’s building that self-loyalty and that autonomy with food. And I think that’s the biggest thing is with; it does come that permission to eat and that genuine permission. And I think that’s where, when we were talking before about your mocker part and that BFF part, and the way you conceptualize that with your clients is, bringing them together in a way that they’ll work with each other instead of.

Swinging back and forth. How does the self-loyalty come in with the BFF and the monger and how could we pull that together with food?

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So would you say that part of unearthing this like moving forward for me personally, since I’ve become the test subject here is bringing those rules to light.

Yeah. Okay.

Erica: Yes, that’s one of the first things that I do with my clients is first we look at, okay, are you eating enough? What is the, do you have a rhythm to eating and do you, but through that process, we’re unearthing the rules. Hey, why don’t you. Bread with lunch. Oh, because I can’t have carbs after 10:00 AM.

Oh, you can’t, let’s talk about that. And so once, once we start going through that, and it’s amazing how actually I’m going to back up, I think the quickest way you can get to your rules is to make a list of what foods are good foods. And what foods are bad foods. Oh. And that’s a shortcut to unearth so many food rules.

And then the more subtle ones start to reveal themselves. Oh, you don’t eat chicken tenders for lunch. What, why other it’s a dinner food really? Okay. You said that (laughing)

Nancy: (Laughing) and that’s how insidious they are. When you say them, they sound wackadoodle, but in your brain, They’re perfectly logical.

Erica: Yes. Once upon a time, a personal trainer, had you weigh your chicken breasts at dinner. And so, it is it’s. So, it’s so illuminating. Once you start to the awareness, you can’t change anything that you’re not aware of when you just feel so stuck.

And so, I love having people write those out, and I have them, beyond good food, bad food beyond, timing with eating. What have you heard about, these types of foods? What have you heard about if you’re moving or you’re not moving and we really get into it and then after they unearth a lot of their food rules, I say things like, is that still relevant?

Do you know that to be true? And so, it’s called wait a minute, fat isn’t as bad as we thought it was in the nineties, it turns out it’s really satisfying. And so, you’re starting to. Once you become aware of them, you start to challenge them and then do things differently. And that I think is one of the things that can unite the BFF and the monger with the self-loyalty is a self-loyalty saying I got this, I’m going to figure it out.

And I trust my body, and I trust myself to sort through it. Sort through these things

Nancy: Yeah. That makes it, so that’s helpful. Just that’s been really helpful. Okay. Anything you would add since we’re going to start wrapping up here, anything you want to make sure people hear when it comes to avoidance and emotional eating,

Erica: working with clients and teaching them, how do you eat enough?

What does that look like for you? And then unearth the food rules. And then we find the morality that exists in that, the shame. And then from there. It’s really them continually checking in with themselves and just getting reset. So, it was like a lot of journaling what’s going on with me and seeing the eating behaviors as an indicator, that something that they’re disconnected in some things off.

So, it’s a really dynamic process that happens over time. And so, I’m almost thinking about somebody knowing that these things don’t go away at night or overnight, and that we can’t like will our way out of them. But the more that you continue to offer yourself permission, The more that you fuel your body, no matter how you feel about it the more that you start to remove morality and the rules that you have around food,

Nancy: love that phrase morality, because it is linked.

It is linked to that. It’s that strong, it’s that strong morality, the shame, the good person, bad person, but the term morality just really shows. It’s not just, I’m a good person. I’m a bad person, but I am like, it defines who I am right. In big ways that I don’t even. I’m not even aware of.

Erica: And that’s what I think when we were talking earlier about the shoulds, I think that’s what it actually is when you’re saying I should do this, or I shouldn’t do this, you’re saying I’m a good person. If I do this, and I’m a bad person, if I don’t do this. And that’s where often, when we say, hey, all foods are good, right?

You’re good. Your body’s good. That’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about removing that morality because yeah. When you eventually leave this earth people, aren’t going to say, oh, good thing that she had a solid breakfast every morning, remember you for who you are and what you bring to your relationships into your life.

And so, I think it is. It is moving beyond, eating in a certain way to be a certain type of person. And I think that gets into the weight piece. That’s where I think the health at every size comes in is I feel shame because my body doesn’t look a certain way, and people in larger bodies and people not in larger bodies, all feel the shame.

People in larger bodies just have the attic. Microaggressions and discrimination put upon them. So, I think that sometimes can be what’s underneath that too, is if you’re feeling a certain way about food, you’re maybe also feeling a certain way about your body. And that’s another way that they get linked up,

Nancy: Because I even think about that quote, oh, it’s I can’t, I’m not going to come up with this, but then it’s a.

You are not as fat as you think you are. Like she’s talking to this college seniors at commencement, and she’s you’re not as fat as you think you are. And I look back on pictures of myself, and I’m like, wow. I felt as I was beating myself up, just as much as I am now, then, and I’m a much, have much more weight now than I did then, but my mindset was exactly the same.

Yeah. The personal hell I was living in was exactly the same. It is.

Erica: At such a young age. Our fear of becoming fat is internalized, and that’s also called fatphobia. And so, then we carry that throughout our lives. And again, that’s us, really judging ourselves as a person and our value and our worth.

And that’s not just coming from us. Some of that trickles down from society and healthcare and things like that. And that is I think, a deeper part of this work and healing your relationship with food usually. Like you experienced the body image dissatisfaction. That starts first. That is the precept to your relationship with food going awry.

And then the body image, whether that’s acceptance or. Some people are more of a self-love, some people are more neutral. Some people just say, hey, I live in a body, and I take care of it. And I’m glad that I have it. Everyone has different levels of how they approach that. But that’s the last part of this work.

And that’s why we say, hey, we’ve got to set the weight aside. And so, you might be saying to yourself, I may not like how my body looks, or I may be judged by society by the size of my body, but I still deserve. To eat food and I have permission to do so again,

Nancy: back to the self-loyalty piece. Yes.

That’s really what this is all about. That’s easy to say, like that’s the overarching theme and then all these exercises you’ve given us, recognizing the rules, recognizing how, morality plays apart recognizing being a good person or a bad person, and when your monger’s talking versus your BFF, but all of that comes down to how do I feel as a person?

And am I looking outside of myself for the answer versus trusting what my body is telling me? Exactly. Yeah, exactly way easier said than done, but

Erica: Oh gosh, that’s why it is such a, yeah. It’s such a process. I don’t like to tell people when I first started working with them, that it’s going to take years. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t feel better and that you aren’t having these co quote-unquote wins in the process.

But it, like you said, you were in high school. Hey, I feel this, or a lot of people it’s younger as well. And so, you’re trying to change a thought pattern of I’m too big. That’s been going on for how many years. And so, I always invite people to. Have compassion for yourself again, easier said than done because there’s this other part of you.

That’s sick of feeling this way. I don’t agree with this anymore. I just don’t want; I want to stop doing this. I want to stop thinking this. So, this impatience and this discomfort that you want to change, and you’re balancing that with, oh gosh, this has been around for a while. So, it’s going to take some time.

Nancy: Yeah, thanks for saying that. Because it’s very true, but it is also I can see. Now after having this conversation, going back to that, because for me, it started in college when there was so much pressure to look a certain way and go in and everyone was restricting and everyone, like that was the cool thing to do with overworking out and all that stuff.

To go back to that girl there and just pour on the self-compassion, to visualize her in my head and be like, wow, you were trying so hard to do it. And you just got a little lost and how you did it, and so let’s just. Reprogram that, and I like to avoid thinking about her because to me, that’s where all the evil started.

Yes. Yep. And it’s the opposite.

Erica: It’s the absolute opposite. It’s when she first came into contact with this pressure to conform and fit in, and like most people who diet, she came out on the other side with some of the things that she didn’t want to be dealing with as a result of the dieting part. Yeah. And that’s what we’re trying to get back to.

And the food healing process. You’re trying to get back to who you were before food got messed with.

Nancy: Ah, that’s lovely. That’s a lovely place to end. It was interesting when we first started before, I think even before I hit record, you said I love the, some of these conversations are the best when I’m talking.

Yeah. A therapist who doesn’t ha who has some of the skillset, but not much of the skillset, which is totally true. You’re like what happened? Like I’m like, I know what you’re talking about, but I still have a lot of crap when it comes to this stuff. And so, it’s just been really illuminating to me to chat with you about it, to combine, like I know this is.

Not that food is my last frontier because Heaven knows

Erica: a lot of people that can be though one it’s like a slow change.

Nancy: Yeah. It is something I know. I have an issue with that. I have just been like; I don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want to deal with that.

I don’t want to deal with that. And you are today. Have given me and hopefully the listeners some guidance on how to deal with that.

Erica: I hope so. I love talking with people who’ve done work in other areas of their lives because then you’re linking it up with all the positive that they’ve already done, and it just comes together.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So, tell people where they can find you and get information about what it is you’re doing. Yeah.

Erica: So, anyone can find me on my instagram@alignnutritionormywebsitealignednutrition.com and I’m often posting. Really thought-provoking content on Instagram. I’m showing up on stories.

I love getting DMS. I’m in the process of building an online program that comes out next week called realign. And yeah, DME, if you have any ideas or things that you want me to cover, I’m actively creating it right now. And I love to hear from people that really resonate with this type of topic and information so that we can create a solution together

Nancy: And you have to follow her on Instagram, but she is like incredibly responsive and is always on there answering questions. It’s really, I can’t say enough good things and not just because she’s a friend of mine really is amazing. So, thank you, Erica, for taking the time to do this.

Amazing.

Erica: Thank you for having me. So many people deal with anxiety. It gets linked up to food, and this just couldn’t be more important to be talking about.

Nancy: This interview was a game-changer for me in so many ways. Being able to openly share my avoidance issues around food, allowed me to see my patterns in a whole new light.

I am so much kinder now when I reach for the chocolate, and I’m quick to ask myself, what do you need? Sometimes the answer is chocolate, and sometimes I’m surprised because the answer is rest or a conversation with a good friend. Eric has point about the moral issues of eating really struck me as well.

So much of my judgment around food is a moral judgment. It is deeper than just craving sweets. When I’m stressed. It’s about a personal failure. Seeing this in the interview has allowed me to start loosening up this message. I started out this month, wanting to talk about avoiding our anxiety through various means, but I’m finding through each interview that the method we use to avoid also has its own messages from our mongers and from society.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

---

Episode 127: Anxiety, Avoidance, and Money

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Jacquette Timmons a national investment expert and financial coach about money.

There is one thing almost everyone does when their anxiety gets high. 

They avoid. 

Whether through food, alcohol, social media, or money–we avoid. 

All this month, I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. We’re pulling back the curtains on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. 

We’re kicking this off this month by talking with Jacquette Timmons about money. 

Money and avoidance go hand in hand. Money is a very loaded topic for people in general, but especially those with High Functioning Anxiety. We avoid dealing with our money. We avoid talking about money. We engage in overspending or being overly controlling about money.

All of these patterns come from one place – avoiding our intentions and feelings about money. 

Jacquette Timmons is a national investment expert and financial coach. She is the founder of Sterling Investment Management, a New York-based investment education and financial coaching firm. She has worked in the investment industry for 23 years and conducts numerous personal finance and stock market investing workshops.

This conversation couldn’t have come at a better time. While I think any time we can intentionally talk about money is good, right now, with the current state of the world, this conversation is even more relevant.  

I learned so much from Jacquette in our conversation. We laughed and shared openly and honestly about the topic of money. She has a unique and refreshing approach to money management – one that we can all benefit from to ease our shame and anxiety around money. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Jacquette’s approach to money management is so unique

• What you can do to ease some of your shame and anxiety around money

• Why we avoid when it comes to money and what we can do about today

• What the role our family of origin plays in our approach to money

Resources mentioned:

• Jacquettetimmons.com

• Twitter: @jacqmtimmons

• Instagram: @jacquettemtimmons

• Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Jacquette: When you have those moments of feeling shame, you're like no. I don't have to feel shame. I've bumped up against this before and I've come through it and this is how I've come through it. So now you have, something, you can look back to where you can give yourself credit. And I think that's how you deal with the anxiety and the shame.

Nancy: There is one thing almost everyone does when their anxiety gets high, they avoid whether through food, alcohol, social media, or money, we avoid. All this month, I'm talking with experts in these four areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.

We're kicking off this month of interviews about avoidance, talking about money, and avoidance go hand in hand, we avoid dealing with our money. We avoid talking about money. We engage in overspending or being overly controlling about money. Basically, we all have stuff about money and it's a place that we tend to avoid.

Money is a very loaded topic for people in general, but especially those with high functioning anxiety, we all have patterns around money, overspending being overly controlling, or being unaware. All of these patterns come from one place, avoiding our intentions and feelings about them. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. This conversation came at a great time one because I think anytime we can intentionally talk about money, that's a great time. And two right now with the current state of the world, many of us are very anxious about it. Jacquette Timmons, a national investment expert and financial coach is the founder of Sterling investment management, a New York based investment education and financial coaching firm.

She's worked in the investment industry for 23 years and conducts numerous personal finance and stock market investing workshops. I learned so much from Jacquette in our conversation. We laughed and shared openly and honestly about the topic of money. I'm so excited to kick off this month's interviews on avoidance with Jackie.

Jacquette and I talk about why her approach to money management is so unique. What you can do to ease some of your shame and anxiety around money, why we avoid when it comes to money and what we can do about it. And the role of our family of origin plays and our approach. I am so excited today to have Jacquette Timmons here to talk about money when it comes to how we're avoiding things.

Welcome Jacquette

Jacquette: I am so delighted to be here. Thank you.

Nancy: You're so welcome. Okay, so let's dive in. So one of the traits of my clients and listeners is they tend to be super great planners and organizers, but when it comes to money, they have a tendency to avoid. Sometimes it's overspending, but it's not necessarily overspending.

They just don't have a real, honest relationship with their money. Why is this? And how do you see that trait showing up in your clients?

Jacquette: So I think one of the biggest things when it comes to avoidance is that. People are avoiding things because of what they are afraid to see what they are afraid that they will learn or discover.

And a lot of it has to do with identity. And if you have to confront something. It may or may not affirm the identity that you think you have or want to have and how you spend your money is so connected to that. And so you avoid it because there are either questions you're not yet ready to deal with or patterns of behavior.

You're really not yet ready to change. Or even become aware of the fact that you may need to change them.

Nancy: Oh my goodness. Just as you were saying that my stomach went like blech like that, hit home for me there. Whew. Because it is like a, it's you don't want to touch it. Like it's in this little box that I just want to keep buried there and not look into it.

And I never thought about the identity piece and how we're not. Congruent. Yeah. If I start looking into the finances, then I realize I'm not congruent and that's just too scary to go there.

Jacquette: Exactly. And I think it has to do with people's emotional capacity perhaps to deal with what they may discover that either they realize, oh, because here's the thing, at the end of the day, Yes, we are adults. And we, have gotten to the point where we've had our own experiences and we've made our own choices and we're living out with the consequences of those. And yet we can't discount the impact of our family backgrounds. And that's not to say whether those family backgrounds are good or bad it's to recognize that whatever they were, they have an influence on us.

And a lot of times people think that they are either. Doing the opposite of what they saw growing up and maybe they are, or they think they're doing the opposite, but they really aren't. It just looks different. Or maybe they are doing exactly what they saw growing up. And it depends on what you saw as to whether or not you embrace one of those three modes, but all of it goes back to being connected to identity.

Nancy: Okay. And is that an unconscious choice? Do most people know exactly what it is. They grew up doing what they saw their parents doing, or like they overheard messages of scarcity and fear. And so then they internalize that as messages of scarcity and fear, like how much of a do you think is a conscious.

Jacquette: I think most of it is an unconscious choice. I think it is something positive or something that you want to do. That's a positive response to a negative. So if you grew up where, there was always a shortage of money and now you're in a situation where you're making sure that there's never a shortage of money that would be doing the opposite, you grew up and talking about money was just as common as talking about what are we going to have for dinner tonight? And that's something that you want to continue. So that's conscious, but there are other things that I think people don't necessarily recognize that they are doing. So here's an example, cause I know that can maybe sound a little abstract, but here's an example for you.

Working with one of my entrepreneur, small business clients. And when I'm working with clients on pricing, I have them go through an exercise where it's like, who are the five people that you spend the most time with physically and, or just in general? Cause sometimes distance doesn't allow you to be physical, but you talk all the time.

So who are the people that you spend the most time with and who are the people that spend the most time in your room? And how are those people influencing you? And what, what of those relationships, what about them are energizing? You? What about them are draining you and what this one client discovered was that so much of how she was operating her business had a lot to do with wanting to prove her father wrong, even though.

And even though she was doing financially well, every time she would go home, it was like, oh, that's a good sweetheart. When you're going to get a real job. And that's an example of, sometimes you don't realize the way in which the. The messaging that you got around money and perhaps in that instance, how you earn it and what makes it valuable, you don't realize how it is impacting you.

So sometimes it can be, a conscientious choice and other times I think it's more subconscious, the influence.

Nancy: How do you start packing that, like if there's so much anxiety, like I know for me to be transparent, I got a ton of anxiety around money, lit is just it's literally in the box.

I don't look at it unless I have to. And then when I have to, I do, and then I freak out, then I put it back in the box. How do you start unpacking that?

Jacquette: Little by little tracking. So often when people hear me make the suggestion of tracking money, they think that I am making it for the financial purposes of creating a budget.

And actually that's a nice byproduct, but that's not why I'm asking people to track their money. For me, the purpose of tracking your money is so that you can begin to identify patterns and you can't interrupt a pattern of behavior that you're not recognizing. And so I asked people to track their money so that they can see what are they doing over a period of time, what's driving their choices, so you're not just capturing, what did you buy and how much money did you spend, but you're also capturing, was it something that you wanted or needed? Was it spontaneous? Was it planned? And the whole idea is to track without any sort of self judgment, but to track because you're collecting data. And the whole purpose of collecting that data.

And so that you can go back and objectively assess and ask, what is this data revealing to you? And when you do that, then you can understand what's the pattern when it comes to the things that you are avoiding, why do you avoid it? Who are the other people that might be involved? Is it connected purely to the money or is it the money connected to a person you can just begin to see all of the different connections that might be really useful.

Nancy: Yeah, that is fascinating. So you talk about. The idea on your blog, you said every day, you say something with your money, you can't help it. It's an expression of you. I loved that quote as much as I hate that. That's true. How did you come to that realization and why is that so important?

Jacquette: I'll answer the last part of your question first. Why is it so important? It is important because you, me, everybody, we use our money every day in some form or fashion, right? Whether it's cash, whether it's credit card, debit card, online transactions, online purchases.

And yet just because we're using our money all the time, it does not mean that we know what we have, that we know what we tend to do with what we have or why. And when I make the comment about, you're saying something with your money, every single time you're doing that something again, you're going into your wallet, getting whatever, or going online, you are expressing what's a priority for you in that moment or in general.

You are expressing what your values might be. You are expressing what your expectations are. You are expressing your beliefs, your behavior, your fears, like all of that is coming out. Even if, again, you're not really conscientious about it. And so what I, in that saying, what I'm trying to get people to understand is that it's never just about the money, right?

So you're just paying a hundred dollars for something, be it on your credit card or literally with cash. But there's a lot more tied into that transaction than just the dollar amount. And so what I'm trying to get people to do is to understand the other dimensions of it. And the first part of your question, which was around, how did I get to the realization that it was important is because I think sometimes, especially if we think about the moment in time, when we were recording our conversation, a lot of people don't feel like they have power.

And to me, when you recognize that every single day that you were using your money, that's an expression of something. What it's also an expression of is your power. And you may not like the choices that are available to you to make, but you have the ability to make a choice. And for me, that's a sense of power.

And so it's a way of also getting people to understand that even if you don't like your options, you still have a choice. And embedded in that choice is a sense of power that you don't have to abdicate to someone else that you can reclaim. So getting people to understand that. Yeah. It's not just about the dollar sign.

It's about what it is. Is that a moment helping you to do or what is it. That choice in that moment, helping you to do to me, that's really what I am saying. And I'm also hopefully saying that it can be a reflection of you in that moment, and it can be a reflection of you overall, because sometimes those identities don't necessarily have to be a hundred percent in alignment, but you have to recognize that, what if things were ideal, I wouldn't make this choice.

But they're not ideal. So I'm making this choice and that doesn't mean that who you are in general, like your character, it doesn't mean that you are a bad person or out of alignment with that in the bigger picture scheme of things. I don't know. Does that answer your question? Cause I feel like I went off.

Nancy: It does and yeah, it totally does. And I'm glad you brought up, that we're recording this in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic quarantine, because I feel like for a lot of my clients, getting, they feel out of control. So being able, especially. We are out of control. It's not even like we're feeling out of control.

Everything is out of control and everything is unknown. And so I'm so glad that we're having this conversation. Cause I think finances is something we only manage when we're feeling well. It's out of control or, like w when, it gets to a crisis point, and now at this point in the pandemic process, we could really start being honest about our money and focusing down on that, and that is something we can totally be in control of right now.

Jacquette: And I also would love to add onto that and just say if someone were to go to my website, the first thing that they're going to see is A counter to our cultural description of how we interact with money. And what I say is that you don't manage money, you manage your choices around my name.

And I think if we focus more on the choice, That also is a way of reclaiming power, regardless of the circumstances, either circumstances that you've created or circumstances that are a product of what you know was completely out of your control, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

I'm sure people want to know what's your background. How did you get into this unique way of looking at money?

Jacquette: Yeah. So from an educational standpoint, I do have my MBA in finance and. Yeah, it's really odd to say this, but this is my third crash.

My very first crashed, that I saw was in the crash of 1987, I was a year out of undergrad, as I'd like to say, still green behind the ears, working on wall street, not really understanding what the heck was going on around me, but witnessing two drastically different reactions to the crash.

On one hand, there were people that were really calm. And then there were others that were freaking out. And literally if they could have jumped out of a window, they would have, and I was just fascinated by that. I was fascinated by the extreme reactions. And what was it that they, that one group of people knew that the other didn't and why were they not talking 20 years old?

I'm 20 years old. About to turn 21. And I'm like, I don't understand this, but this is fascinating. And so that was really the scene that got me really interested in behavioral economics and behavioral finance. And it took many years to, figure out how do you get it out of the academic realm, if you will, and have it be more of a table, kitchen table kind of conversation.

But that's really what got me interested in it.

Nancy: That's fascinating because you are like a therapist for finances. Yeah.

Jacquette: Yeah. But the beautiful thing is that I love the reason why I love not being a therapist is because I can be friends with my clients.

Nancy: I know. I hate that.

Jacquette: Yeah.

And clearly when things get real, real deep, I will refer people to yourdomain. The things that are I know how deep I can go and I know when it's time for them to have professional help. Yeah. For, but yeah, it's definitely helping people unpack a little bit of their origin story and helping them.

Identify, what's the story that they now want to tell what's the legacy that they want, their relationship with money to express.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I think that, and this is just a rant on for my own on my own side. But I think that, so there for a while, there, there was the backlash against the origin story.

Like it was like, I help you move forward. That would be something coaches would say, I don't go in your past. I help you go from here. But man, there's so much in that origin story that we, that impacts us on a daily basis. And if you are not willing to go back there and at least look at some of them, Like you said, the beliefs you got in the stuff you just swallowed whole unconsciously that you're now playing out in your own life.

Yep. It's not to go back there and blame or ridicule or no, it's too early. The unconscious things that are affecting you now.

Jacquette: Exactly. And I think the key word there is not to blame. You're not blaming yourself. You're not blaming your parents or whomever raised you, it's really to amplify your awareness.

Excuse me so that you can make better smarter choices and make those choices from a more fully informed perspective, as opposed to not being aware of your blind spots. Cause we all have blind spots and th the more though we can put a spotlight on those so that we can figure out what do we want to do?

Embrace or not, the better quality of choice, because I think we're also always making choices, but the quality of those choices might be in question. So the idea is to make the best quality choice that you can make.

Nancy: That’s something that I talk about all the time, be kind to yourself, don't judge yourself, like we're just unearthing and looking at stuff, but with money, man, shame and money.

Whew. They go hand in hand. Big time. Raveling, that is just hard. And I love the idea of tracking your money. Like I'm going to start doing that, what to see, to be able to do that, but how can you get past I guess I just have so many blocks around it. How other than working with you, which would be an awesome idea.

How can you just slowly start moving past that shame and giving yourself. The permission that it's okay to do that. This is messy and it's okay to do it wrong. A couple of things.

Jacquette: One journal, I know that somebody might not necessarily have anticipated that answer.

Nancy: I did not.

Jacquette: A few clients, especially those that are challenged with feeling like they deserve their success, that they deserve the financial renumeration that comes with that. I have them journal. And the idea is to really just feel like you're writing either a letter to your money or you're writing a letter to whomever about what happened today with regards to money and.

It's very in alignment with the tracking mechanism, from the standpoint of, again, really reflecting on the conditions of your moment in that of your money, I should say in that moment in time. So if you're journaling every night and you're like, here, what's here. Here's where I not only spent my money, but here's how I felt like just going into a deeper dive than just tracking.

You can get a sense of what was going on for you in that moment in time. And the other thing is that you can have a better understanding of. Where, what are those situations that actually caused you to feel vulnerable? Where are those situations, or what are those situations that caused you to feel a sense of shame or a sense of guilt and who are the other people involved?

And again, The purpose of the journaling is not for you to go back and read it and to beat up on yourself, but it's to go back and read it and identify patterns because you can't, again, I'm going to say this over and over. You can't interrupt a pattern that you do not see. And and I also feel and this is not at all being disrespectful to anyone that subscribes to, saying mantras and all of that.

But I don't think you can think your way through to the other side. I don't think you can mantra your way through to the other side. You've got to do something. Yeah. And so this is part of the action. That gets you to move beyond the same, the shame, because when you do this, what your end, what you end up doing is you end up creating.

That shows you that you've overcome certain things. And that evidence is what gives you the confidence and that evidence is then becomes the antidote, the Ana, the en the antidote to when you, those moments of feeling shame, you're like no. I don't have to feel shame. I've bumped up against this before and I've come through it and this is how I've come through it.

So now you have. Something, you can look back to where you can give yourself credit. And I think that's how you deal with the anxiety and the shame.

Nancy: Yeah. Love. Cause the other thing that all that does is bring the money out of the box. It's very down deep inside and puts it a forefront. In your daily life.

And so you have to, then you're regularly dealing with it, which I think is in the spirit of this month of avoidance, that's a direct way of preventing that of stopping that unconscious pattern.

Jacquette: And then the here's the other thing, right? I know that some people maybe hear the words and they get it and then others hear the words and they don't really embrace it.

But we all have a relationship with money. And one of the things that I will tell people all the time is that it's one of the longest relationships that you want,

Just like any relationship that is of importance to you, of significance. It's multi-layered, it's nuanced, it's complex, it's emotional and it evolves. It does not stand static. So if you think about any other relationship that is important to you, more than likely there are dynamics about it there that are very different today than there were five years ago.

And they will probably be very different five years into the future than they are right now. You will have grown. The other party will have grown. You will okay. Different experiences and that will shape things. And that will change things. And while money may not necessarily be the thing that can talk back at you, it does give you feedback in its own way.

And the way that you also deal with the shame and anxiety is to just understand that, Hey, you've got a relationship with money B, it's not static. It's going to evolve. It's going to change. And then see. You might be having a shameful, anxious moment right now, which is indicative of whatever you're going through right now, but that's not forever.

It's just like when you have a fight with your significant other, your husband, your wife, whatever, a sibling, you might be mad as all get out into that moment. And you might have a right to be mad as all get out in that moment. Hopefully. And when you get paid or the process of getting past that hopefully strengthens the relationship and.

The idea, being that when you have challenges with money, hopefully when you get past that challenge, that's that is somehow giving you some insight as to how you can have a stronger relationship with your money and have it really be in a position where it's doing the things for you that you want it to do.

And I think that also speaks to the whole idea of that. We have to give our money direction. And I don't think we always necessarily operate with that awareness that we've got to be proactive about it. We can't be reactive.

Nancy: What does that mean? Give our money direction. Do you have an example?

Jacquette: Yeah, absolutely.

I think we've got it. Are what its role in our life is, what is its job. And we do that by determining, how much we, how much do we want to save and then practicing the discipline to do that. How do we want to invest? And I have a more broad definition of investing. So it's not just about, the typical definition of building financial wealth, which is important and owning more than what you owe, but also looking at, in addition to financial wealth, social wealth, how are you investing in other people's.

Time wealth is if you had all the time in the world, what would you do differently? Like how would your life be different physical wealth and wellbeing, wealth?

So what are you doing to take care of yourself? What are you doing to take care of your emotions and your mental wellbeing like to meet all of that is a part of the, investing and building wealth spectrum. But money is the part of that. How are you directing money in your life to help you achieve those things?

When it comes to wealth, what's your lifestyle? How is money playing a role in the lifestyle that you want to live? And the really big piece for me is really helping people to show. How they relate to earn from the standpoint of, I think many of us have been conditioned that the way the world works is yeah, you get paid and you make that work, you can take from what you side, what you're going to save, how are you going to invest it? How are you going to spend it? And, oh, by the way, you make those decisions after you've paid your bills. And there's nothing wrong with that. And culturally, we've been doing that for many years and some people are really successful.

But what I want people to begin to do is to say, Actually, no. How much do I want to say, why is that important to me in different dimensions? What's the full picture of how I want to invest it. How do I want to spend it? And then with that begs the question of what do I need to earn to make that happen?

It's a shift, but it is huge. It is so huge in terms of flipping things on its head. And again, going back to the whole power dynamic. There are absolutely things that we don't have control over it, but we can control our approach or at least control us moving. An inch more in the direction of living bore by what I call more by design than by the fault.

Nancy: Ah, I love that because I know so many of my clients just do the default. Yeah. People in general do that.

Jacquette: Absolutely. And that's. Income spectrums it's across the wealth spectrum. Like just because you are a high earner or just because you have a lot of assets that does not make you immune from any of the things we've talked about today, right?

Nancy: Yeah no. Okay. So I can imagine my client, listening to. Podcasts and being like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get control over my money. And so they go to the super extreme of they're going to be, really militant about it and tracking everything and doing everything. And then that gets to be too much.

And so they're like screw it and they go completely off the deep end like that all or nothing thinking. That person that has that.

Jacquette: Hey, slow down, slow your horses.

Slow your roll.

And the whole cliche is that it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It all applies. It's a cliche cause there's a reason behind it. So more specifically for that person, what I would suggest is you ask yourself five questions, whether you do that weekly, or you do it monthly. The first question is what did I spend this week?

That might be really easy to answer because you might use a tracking app. Where it gets tricky is the second part of that question, which is how much of that was spent toward my goals. I think a lot of people overlook is that the majority of their goals have a financial component to it. And a lot of people aren't really diligent about earmarking, a certain amount of money.

To go toward those goals. So it's one thing to be able to say, oh yeah, I know how much money I spent this week. It's another thing to be able to say. And I know how much of that I, spent toward quote unquote saving for a particular goal. So that's one question. The second question is what, if anything happened if you're doing this on a weekly basis this week, if you're doing it on a monthly basis this month, what if anything happened that caused me to unexpectedly spend money or make a financial decision?

The third question is. What do I have a financial win or a financial breakthrough? And one of the reasons that I, I have people answer that question is because again, culturally, I think we're so focused on our mistakes and our faults that we often don't give ourselves credit for the things that we do well.

So that's an opportunity to reflect and do that. The fourth question is, are you on track? Are you behind? Or are you ahead of your targets? Be it your savings targets or investing targets, your earnings targets, things of that nature. And then the last question is purposefully open-ended and it's anything.

The beauty of asking these questions even just once is that it'll help you to pause. And think about what's going on. The profundity though really shows up when you do it over time and you look at either how your answers change or how they stay the same. And there's a great deal of feedback for you and what in your answers to those questions over time.

So that's how. Benefit from making the commitment to change the behavior, but then also don't do a crash and burn of, having everything be full speed ahead, and then you wear yourself out and then you become distracted and then you don't do anything because the thing of it is oftentimes the only time that we're thinking about money is when there's a bill to be paid or there's a big transaction that needs to happen, or there's a crisis.

What this does is it helps you to integrate, engaging with your money the way in which you would engage in anything else that's important to you, but on a more regular basis outside of it being an emergency or a task, and it keeps it a little bit more on the front burner then as the thing that's on the back burner and you'll get to it when you need to.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause that's what I mean, those questions. Awesome. Because I know for me, back when Starbucks reopens,

that is so like, when I think about I will be driving to work and be like, Ooh, I'm going to stop and get a Starbucks. And, and that Starbucks app is just like from the devil, because it doesn't even feel like you're spending any money. It's just it's on the app. I gotta spend it making a conscious like that.

What happened that caused me to spend that money was I was feeling anxious or I was feeling tired or I just wanted to treat or reward. It was an unconscious action. And so I liked that question in particular, would it would help me focus on. Where am I taking these unconscious actions? Just because it's on an app and I don't feel like it's real money.

Jacquette: So there's that. And I want to be really clear though. I'm not the person that will tell you not to enjoy that latte or whatever it is that you're getting at. I'm not going to tell you, but I think you illuminated the value, which is to raise your kids. Yes around. Why are you doing it? So it's really interesting.

I don't know if you heard about this story? It was a research. Oh God. I think actually I think that researcher recently died too from Harvard Clayton Christianson, I believe was the researcher, but the point of this story is they were doing research on McDonald's. And what they realize is that McDonald's shakes were being purchased in the morning by people who drove to work and had long drive because it was filling and it was easier to eat while they drove.

They were not. As a snack in the afternoon. And when they recognize this, I don't know what triggered the research the reason for the research, but this is what they, this was the like, unexpected discovery. And so when they realize that they change the the recipe. So that the shake was thicker and then they were able to actually charge more.

What they realize is where they thought these shakes were like, for the teenagers after school, on their way, home from school. As an afternoon treat, it was actually the thing that was fueling people, driving to work, meaning to have some breakfast before work. And, it's easier to drink a milkshake as we drive than it is to eat a egg McMuffin.

Right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. That is fast. Yeah. Because some days there, yeah. I Just there's some days that I'm getting the Starbucks for reasons other than, like that I need the caffeine or, but when I'm oh, On the fourth day in a row, that's wait a minute. What's really going on here.

And I think that is what you're illuminating. Is that unconscious? Yeah.

Jacquette: Yeah. And exactly all my clients, the apple pay, I gotta be careful.

Nancy: Yeah, it is completely unconscious. Like it's just Mike monopoly money go on going out there. Yeah. And so I love this stuff because it is so applicable in a normal time and also so applicable now. During, what potentially could be some economic downturns coming our way and this, all of this stuff applies to that.

Jacquette: Absolutely. Absolutely. It helps you to, navigate the waters now when things are well, here's the thing. We're always operating with uncertainty, which is why I think it is so fascinating that the market, the stock market anyway is always, behaving when misbehaving, when it's like the market is uncertain, everything is uncertain.

That's always.

To not be flip about it. It is definitely a hyper uncertain time. And given that now is a really good time to take stock. And like one of the exercises that I gave of a client yesterday was, look at your spending for the last six months and look at your spending for January to March of last year.

And just see, where are you? Where are you? And that will help you to forecast and prepare for the next three and possibly six months. If things don't improve the way we would like them to be, you'll be in a position to be more proactive about how you respond, as opposed to just simply reacting.

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's. So helpful. So helpful. The knot in my stomach has gone away in this conversation today.

Jacquette: There's something to go away

Nancy: Seeing that it is an emotional process and, a lot of, and I don't always attach those two together so that it gives me a lot more expansiveness around thinking about it and it doesn't completely. I know some of my patterns, but I certainly don't know all of them.

And so just having, even having the questions really helps me see a way through which really start the process to pull it out and look at it now.

Jacquette: Exactly. Yeah. I, one of the things that I say to people is, your wallet is like a mirror, it's a reflective device. And so if we really do take the time and do that journaling, it's really.

Reflecting back to you a lot of information that you can use and insight that you can use in terms of what you want to change and how you want to change it. Yeah.

Nancy: It's yeah. So where can people find out about you and learn more about you and get out? Lovely resources and potentially work with you.

Jacquette: Yeah. So you can go to my website and that's Jacquette timmons.com and I would invite people to do the financial wheel exercise. It is free and that will really help them in terms of. Connecting with or recreating their financial vision, which is probably needed around right about now. Help you to live more by design rather than by default.

So there, and then I am, as very active on Instagram.

I just get such a thrill because I was such a late joiner to it. And so I'm like, man, I should've done this sooner anyway, but you can just put my name in the search bar. I kept Timmins. And yeah, you'll find me there on Instagram or Twitter or LinkedIn, but I'm really active on Instagram.

Nancy: Okay. This was so helpful.

Thank you. I know this will help a ton of people during this time. And like I said, anytime, so thank you. For taking your time to do this.

Jacquette: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed your questions and our conversation.

Nancy: Two things I want to repeat about what Jacquette shared that were huge takeaways for me.

Number one, being non-judgmentally curious about your money habits is amazingly helpful. Even those of you who have a tight control on your own. I believe we can always bring nonjudgmental curiosity to the subject to impact those stories we have about being a good person when it comes to money or doing it right.

The second thing was the importance of small changes, asking yourself the five questions she shared and slowly over time, bringing your money beliefs out of the darkness and into the light. So you can start to reshape your beliefs about money.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

---

Episode 126: Setting and Keeping Habits

In today’s episode, I talk with Sarah Von Bargen about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway.

Habit is one of those words I have a negative reaction to. 

Like a lot of people, I have tried to create healthy habits and tried to be super militant about maintaining them, only to fail miserably. 

What are we supposed to do? On one extreme, we have the voice of the Monger who is constantly beating us down for this failure – not exactly motivating – and on the other, we have our BFF who encourages us to rebel against anything habitual. 

So, yeah, the word habit brings up all kinds of stuff for me. 

This is why I wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen of Yes and Yes, the “lifestyle blog for smart, funny people.”

Sarah is an expert in setting and keeping habits. She writes and teaches on Yes and Yes about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway. 

One thing that struck me about this interview with Sarah was her emphasis on small manageable changes – the opposite of my old pattern around habits. Healthy habits are not about all or nothing. It’s about habits that are small and realistic and intentionally honoring yourself (all that self-loyalty I talk about). Way less dramatic than my old way of being but far more productive!

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What it looks like to give yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit

• How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first

• How to tell the difference between caring for yourself and numbing out

• Some approached you can take to decrease your phone addiction

• Why the 21 days to set a habit is BS and how long it REALLY takes

Research and resources mentioned:

• Pomodoro Technique

• Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once the name becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself.

Nancy: Hey everyone,

before we get into regular programming, I just wanted to check in and say, Hey, how are you doing during these crazy times? I know from my clients and for myself, anxiety is high and I have been saying, you aren't doing it wrong. If your anxiety is high. You're just being human. So be kind to yourself, go hour by hour, and sometimes it will be minute by minute, check in with yourself, acknowledge your feelings and get into your body as much as possible.

Just so you know, I'm checking in every day on Instagram, live at 10:00 AM and then I'm sharing it on my Facebook and my Instagram. So feel free to tune in there for tips on living with high functioning anxiety, through COVID-19 and for now sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode. And I'll see you on the other side, take care of yourselves.

Be kind.

Today we're talking habits. Habits is one of those words. I have a negative reaction to. I spent so much of my life in extremes around habits, setting a goal to create healthy habits and being super militant about it, motivated by my monger only to fail miserably because our mongers they're not motivating and having my BFF step in and take me to the other extreme of having no habits and rebelling against anything habitual. So the word habit, it brings up all kinds of stuff for me. This is why I really wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen, who is an expert in setting and keeping habits.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Sarah writes and teaches about setting habits, money and happiness on her blog. Yes. And yes, as Sarah describes it, it's a lifestyle blog for smart, funny people. Sarah has a kind thoughtful way of approaching habits that I thought we could all benefit from Sarah and I talk about self-defeating behaviors, recognizing them and taking action, despite them giving yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit.

How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first. Caring for yourself versus numbing out, decreasing your phone addiction and why the 21 days to set a habit is total BS and how long it really takes.

Sarah. I am so excited to have you here talking about habits and how we are going to be forming habits.

What about habits intrigued you? How did you get into this life?

Sarah: Oh, gosh. I would say like many things that I have found myself teaching. It is something that I came to relatively naturally. And I didn't think what I was doing was noteworthy or a big deal, but I kept getting questions about what's your secret?

How did you do this? How did you pull this off? And I had to work backwards and realize oh, I was able to change careers in a pretty drastic way and become successful in a honestly very competitive field that lots of people drop out of it. Because I built a daily writing habit and then I worked backwards from there.

Okay. Like how did I build my daily writing habit? And that sort of was a light bulb moment for me that I did this thing that has affected my life in huge ways. And I know that can affect other people's lives in huge ways. And I think that it's I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once something becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards this goal or chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself. Of course, it, it takes a minute to build that habit, but once it's there, you don't even have to I have a pretty robust morning routine and honestly, my brain isn't even on for most of it. I'm not drawing down my control or my decision making, I just get out of bed and do these series of things because I've been doing them for years.

Nancy: Do you think personality type has something to do with it?

Sarah: I'm sure. Personality type plays into it. I am an I N TJ, I'm an Enneagram one. I'm a Virgo. If any of those things mean anything to you, you can just imagine what my brain looks like. So I'm sure that personality type plays into it, but also a lot of it is honestly like neurology like digging neural pathways, building new neural pathways self narrative. A lot of the tools that you would learn about in therapy apply to this kind of stuff. Literally writing down things with your hand to dig neural pathways. So some of it is personality based, but somebody is also just cited.

Nancy: So would you say it's I keep thinking lately that a lot of it is making a choice. Like it is like you have to make the choice to keep doing it, to rebuild those neural pathways.

Sarah: Yeah. You have to, you usually have to reach a point in your life where you either want something so badly, or you are so frustrated with the state of things that you are willing to engage.

You are willing to change things, and that doesn't just apply to habit, but it applies to everything like ending a relationship, changing the way. You eat the way you move your body, the way you spend your money, the city that you live in, but being willing to make a change and being ready to take the steps necessary is the first thing that needs to happen.

Nancy: So tell me about your favorite personal or work habit and why you started doing it?

Sarah: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I would say the habit that brings me the most joy is that every morning I read a novel on my sofa with my dog sitting in my lap while I drink a cup of coffee and it feels so luxurious. And so like it just, and I sit next to the window and I usually am reading something. I only read stuff I enjoy. It just feels so nice. Like I'm not rushing anywhere. I'm not trying to learn something that I can apply to my business. I'm just reading a book that I'm excited about while I drink coffee and like the sun rises over the neighborhood. And that's one of the eight parts of my morning routine.

But it's the part that really it really fills me up.

Nancy: . Okay. So that takes me to a big word. Like I could hear a lot of my listeners being like, how do that's so decadent,

Yeah, give yourself the permission. How do I deserve to do that? And they feel like they have to earn that. I'm only going to read a fiction book if I've earned it.

So how do you break that cycle?

Sarah: One of the things that I tell myself and I tell anyone I work with my students, my one-on-one coaching. And I literally have this printed out over my desk. And so this is, and I say this not as somebody who like this came easily to, this was something I had to work on, but you do not need to save happiness.

You do not need to earn. You do not need to put up off. Because I think, especially for, like the try-hard do goodery type A's of the world, which I'm raising my hand. Because I'm right there with you. We think like I can do something nice for myself after I finished this project, I can do something nice for myself after I like drop off that casserole at my friend's house.

After I cleaned the house, after I pick up the kids, after I fill out that spreadsheet. And when we keep putting it off the likelihood that's my half and it's going to be very low. And the other thing that I would say, something that I see happening so often is that when we spend our entire day making decisions managing other people, putting other people's needs before own.

By the time we get to the end of the day, the likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that is actually like good is very low. The likelihood that we're going to self-soothe by net watching seven episodes on Netflix by scrolling our phone by eating an entire bag of pizza rolls.

Again, I am raising my hand. Like buying things we don't need. The likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that's actually, if we step back and we think what actually makes me feel better? The answer is rarely entire big of pizza rolls. The answer is more like taking a walk with my dog next to the river, calling my best friend.

Reading a chapter from that novel that I liked, but when we have spent the whole day putting other people's needs before ourselves, before us, the likelihood that we're gonna be able to make decisions that are in our best interest is extremely low. So it's much better to do that stuff earlier in the day and do it more frequently to have a release valve.

So you're not making those awesome decisions later in the day, humans actually have, we have a limited, the psychological term for it is ego depletion, but basically what it means is we have a limited amount of ability to make good decisions. And we have a limited amount of self control, and we've all had this experience where we make a bunch of very virtuous decisions and then at 8:00 PM, everything falls apart.

So it's much better. Treat yourself early and often, do nice things for yourself early and often because otherwise you end up burned out. If you all know about Gretchen Rubin's four tendencies, rubric obliger rebellion. So if you are kind to yourself early and often, it's going to be less likely that you are self-soothing in unhealthy ways at eight.

Nancy: So it's like setting the intention in the morning. Yeah. Puts you in that head space of First I'm loyal to myself first.

Sarah: And one of the things, and this is going to sound like, oh, how could this possibly be effective? But I swear to God hand to God, this works.

One of the things that I tell. My students. So I teach a class about money and it's going to seem like where's the parallel here? But one of the things that I teach my students is on Sunday night, I want you to look at your calendar and I want you to plan two to three, lovely kind, enjoyable things for your week.

I want you to literally put them in your calendar, whatever, in your Google calendar, I'm in your paper planner, literally put your DM in your calendar. And keep your commitment to yourself to do those nice, lovely things that are going to fill you up. Because if you have things that are fun and lovely to look forward to, you are much less likely in the case with my bank, new students, you're much less likely to overspend on things you don't need because you know where your money and time and energy are going.

And we get 30% of our enjoyment from an experience from anticipating it. If we've all had this experience. Like I know my husband and I are going out to a really nice restaurant this Friday night. I already know what I'm going to order. I know what I'm going to wear. I know it. I know like it's like a 20 minute drive and I want to swing by this cute boutique on the way there.

I'm really excited. That experience is gonna be totally different than if it's 6:00 PM. I like was like, oh God, I don't want to cook. And like seamless over some, fun from my neighborhood Vietnamese restaurant. It would cost probably about the same, but the experience is totally different. So when you plan those lovely things into your week, you get more enjoyment out of them.

You are less likely to self-sooth in an unhealthy way. And again, because of the personality type of the people that you work with, you're actually. A better partner. You're a better employee. You're a better parent. You're better at everything because you're filling your own cup. I'm sure. I'm sure you talk about all the time.

You can't pour from an empty cup, right? Yeah.

Nancy: I love that. Especially the idea of, of looking forward to it, and the, and the idea, I was talking with someone else last week and we have people say to us so what in your life brings you joy like that? Is a buzzword question, and then I'll say, oh, like walking the dog or reading or going out to dinner with my husband.

And they'll be like no, like really? What are the things like as if my answer isn't good enough.

Sarah: Yeah. As though it has to be like, I only experienced joy when I'm standing under the Eiffel tower. No, there are so many things. And I think if we take a minute to step back, like literally in your daily life, when you're feeling happy, I have it.

I have it. In the notes app on my phone when I'm doing something that makes me happy. I have an, I have a note and ongoing note where I just take note of oh, being in nature by myself. Having lunch with friends on a weekday, going to a mat. And then I literally just add it to my notes app.

So then I can have a toolbox to draw from.

Nancy: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Going to the movies, movie matinee. That's like my favorite.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. It makes me feel so smug about my life choices. Like Tuesday, 2:00 PM. Look what I'm doing. And I go to a second run theater and so it costs literally two dollars what can you buy for two dollars, these days.

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. So the other thing I've heard you on a different podcast, and I don't think this was your phrase. I think it was the interviewer's phrase, the owning your time. And so the similar in the vein that you were just talking about, so many of my listeners are caring for everyone else in their lives, even in that sandwich generation where they have parents and the idea of owning their time feels impossible because they have so many pulls on it. How do you start owning your time when it feels like everyone else is owning it?

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Wow. That is, oh, I have so many thoughts about this. One thing that I would say is owning your time is going to be something it's going to be an ongoing process.

It is going to require some honestly kind of tough conversations, which I know can be difficult for, for this personality type. It's not going to be something that's ever perfect and you're going to get pushed back on it and something that I tell myself that I tell my students, I tell my coaching clients all the time is it is okay to say, no, you are allowed to say, no, you are allowed to disappoint people.

You are allowed to redirect people. If you want your time on this earth to feel the way you want it to feel. Yeah. You can't spend the entire time meeting everyone else's needs. And I know that is hard. I know it's hard to say no, I cannot make a cake from scratch for the church bake sale. I know that it's hard to say no, I don't want to drive you.

I don't want to drive my child, an hour and a half to that birthday party. Like I get it. It's totally hard. If you want you have to make some hard choices and you have to have some hard conversations. A tool that I use in bank boost, which again seems, this is my feel like a strange parallel, but we have a tool that I call the uncomfortable chart.

I encourage people to make moves, to do 20 uncomfortable things over the course of a month. And in the, within the confines of bank loose, it's about 20 uncomfortable things that will add more money to your bank account, but honestly it can apply to anything. And what I think is important is it's not about the outcome of the uncomfortable thing.

It's about the fact that you did it because. It is allowing yourself to be uncomfortable, allowing yourself to stand up for yourself, to advocate for yourself to say, no, it is a muscle. And the more you use it, the better you will get. And so it is literally a chart where I have if you're listening, you can't see this, but I have, I literally have gold foil stars that I put on my uncomfortable chart.

And, you can make something like. On a piece of paper and stick it next to your desk. Anytime you do something that makes you uncomfortable, like saying no, like redirecting someone like making somebody like disappointing someone, put a star on that chart and right next to it, what you did, because I promise you your life will change if you start to be okay.

With being uncomfortable.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I love that. That's such a great way of thinking about it and doing it differently, like practicing it in a way that's not just set a boundary and speak your needs, but I am going to practice being uncomfortable because that's the bottom line. That's what it is.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that so often we only want to give ourselves credit when there are some sort of like really cool end result. Like we only want to give ourselves credit when that magazine like accepts our pitch, or we only want to give ourselves credit when our kids on the honor roll.

But the fact is it takes lots of different attempts to, to reach those goals. And we deserve credit for making those attempts. Honestly, there's a limited amount that we can control in the world. Like you can't really control your kid's grades. You can't really control your parents' health.

You can't really control your bosses decisions. You can only control your own choices, your own efforts, your own interactions, but why not give yourself credit for making those efforts? Yeah, it was really uncomfortable to tell him to tell my coworker that I didn't want to come to her mom party.

It was really uncomfortable to tell my kid was super. Upset when I was like, no, I don't want you to drive you across town, in a snow storm to go to your friend's house. So give yourself credit for doing that uncomfortable stuff.

Nancy: I always tell clients they're allowed to be upset, like you're, your kid is allowed to be disappointed.

You don't have to swoop in and fix that. And that is something that a lot of my clients want to. They feel it's their responsibility to make everyone else okay. With their decisions and recognizing no, they're allowed to have that response and I'm allowed to have mine and we can move on with the day and they will get over it.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Yes. Disappointment is not fatal. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay, so this is a question that I'm like picking your brain personally. Something that a lot of my clients deal with is the kind of the all out, I, we go all out and then we crash. Yes. And then the all out burnout cycle and So how do you know if you're wasting time or if you're just being lazy?

Sarah: Oh gosh, that's a really good question.

Nancy: Like if you need it, like I need the rest, so I'm going to versus I'm being lazy.

Sarah: Really good question. I would say so a few things. One is I. I know for myself let's say that I have been invited to an event. And like I'm tired and the weather's kind of bad and I'm feeling like, I don't know.

If I decide not to go to that event and the feeling that I feel is relief. That means I'm taking care of myself. If the feeling that I feel is shame because I'm like backing out on something that I said I was going to do. That means that I'm not necessarily making the right choice. And I know that not everybody's brain works like that work like that.

And some people are always going to feel shame regardless, but that is something to think about. I think a lot of it also just starts with like really knowing your body. Knowing your brain, because I think most of us, if we pay attention our bodies, are you getting a headache? Do you have a stomach ache?

Are your shoulders up around your ears? Like your body is probably telling you like, okay, it is time to take a break. And the other thing that I think. I know that there is, if I'm truly in like recovery mode, like currently I'm sick and I'm trying to get better. And it is easy. This sounds strange, but it's easy to like for me to relax.

I don't want to say wrong cause that's has a judgment on it, but there's a difference between being like, I'm sick, I'm going to steam myself, I'm going to take a bath. I'm going to put on my comfiest pajamas and sleep. I'm going to watch one of my favorite movies.

That's different than like laying on the sofa and watching seven hours of Netflix. And so I think if you say that you're relaxed, Are you truly like doing things that are going to make you feel better? Like maybe, stretching a little bit foam rolling, like drinking some camomile tea or are you quote unquote relaxing by scrolling your phone for two hours?

Cause that's not actually relaxing. And I know, and that's, a podcast for another day about relaxing sort of wrong. But I think that's something worth checking in with yourself. Because we all need downtime, but are you actually giving yourself downtime that makes you feel better?

Or are you just like numbing out? Cause those are two different things.

Nancy: That's so well said because it was interesting this past. I wrote that question this past weekend when cause I've have gotten in the habit. Friday is my day off and I've gotten the habit of spending all day, Friday, most of the Friday, watching TV and playing some stupid game on my iPad and like totally cut off.

It is what you're describing as not helpful. It's not nurturing. It's not, it's just over and over again. And so I told myself this weekend, I was like, Stop playing the game. I'm doing one thing. The play in the game where I'm watching TV, I can't do both. And oh, it's been so amazing.

Sarah: Yes. It feels so much better.

Nancy: Yes. And then I get sick of TV faster because I'm like engaged in it. And so I've moved on, but it is that's, me recognizing like some of this is a choice. Like you are you're just unconsciously going through your day.

Instead of being intentional about how do I want to spend my day off? And sometimes I do want to completely shut off my brain, but I don't need to do that for the whole freaking day.

Sarah: And you can also completely shut off your brain. But I would say it's especially with phone use and TV watching, there's a point of diminishing returns, and you can shut off your brain and other ways, like going for a walk, taking a bath, reading a nonsense book, napping, going to a matinee of a silly movie.

There are plenty of ways to shut off your brain, but I would say. Watching Netflix for seven hours is not. And also yeah your back's going to hurt from laying on the sofa.

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It has some, diminishing returns for sure. And I know you've been very intentional, which I love about your phone.

What are some of the ways you've decreased that obsession?

Sarah: Yes. So one thing is I charge my phone. Upstairs. So like I work down, I work on the main floor of our house and so I charged my phone upstairs. So it's just out of sight, out of mind. I, and where I charge it is not next to my bed. So there's no option for me to wake up and immediately look at my phone.

So one of the things I teach in habit school is make it easier to be quote unquote, good and harder to be making it easier, to be good and hard, to be bad. And of course, obviously in quotes there about cooking bad. Obviously, there are all sorts of things we can do emotionally, psychologically about temptation, but just make it easier to not pick up your phone.

So charge it or store it out of sight. I don't do this, but I, if somebody really has a phone addiction make it gray scale movie apps that you want to be. Completely delete the app. That's not an option for you. Move it off the home screen and put it in a folder that says something like, are you sure there are a bunch of apps that you can install on your phone that track your phone, use that block you from using certain stuff?

The thing that I do that I have found incredibly helpful is I simply. Unfollow Instagram accounts that aren't triggering for me or make me feel less then if for some reason I feel like I can't unfollow them because it would be, it would make some sort of relationship awkward. I mute them. And the other thing that I do is in my explore page on Instagram, I go through and I will mark either.

I don't want to see this. So if I say something that's really like diety or very, like a 22 year old influencer, who's like a millionaire with a six pack. Like I don't want to see that. So I mark that as I want to see less of that. And then I will also think about what do I do?

More of one of the things that I talk a lot about with my coaching clients is you want to corral evidence of what is possible. What is the thing that you are working towards? What are the stories you're telling yourself? I can't have that. I can't do that. And then you want to find evidence on Instagram that's possible.

So let's say that you are in your late thirties, early forties and you were trying to get pregnant. And you're feeling really that's really hard and sad. Are there Instagram? People who you can follow, who have done that successfully. If you are training for a marathon, can you corral evidence of other people who are doing that?

If you are, you're trying to start an Airbnb, can you follow people who have done that? So fill your Instagram feed with people who are doing the stuff that you want to do, or having the success or achieving the goals that you want to achieve, who are also, and also with as much as possible, like within your demographic, because if you are a 45 year old, stay at home, mom who lives in rural Oklahoma, like falling, a 22 year old influencer who lives in New York, who's doing that might not be that helpful.

But if you can find people who are closer to your demographic who are having the success and achieving the goals that you want to achieve, it can be incredibly hard. To see if this is possible for them, it can be possible for me as well.

Nancy: I love that. Yeah. So again, back to that intentionality of setting yourself up for, yeah.

Okay. So now I want to switch to the idea of self-defeating behaviors. That you talk a lot about, so walk us through your process for identifying self-defeating behaviors and then how we start reversing them.

Sarah: I always pretty much with everything that I do, I always like to start with one at a time, because the truth is most of us have 75 self-defeating behaviors.

Like we have a lot. So let's try to find what is the biggest pain point? What is the thing. That you are doing most frequently, that is putting distance between you and what you say you want. And so this might look like spending money. You shouldn't be spending eating things that are bad for your health being in contact with friends or romantic partners who you shouldn't be in contact with numbing behavior, buffering behavior, drinking more than is healthy for you, that kind of stuff.

So if you can identify what is the one. Let's start with one, one behavior. And then something else I think is really important to understand and acknowledge is that, and that can remove a lot of shame around all of this is that every behavior is a need trying to be met every self-defeating behavior that you are engaging in at some point in your life.

That behavior made sense. So if you are. And I'm not talking about alcoholism because obviously that's a whole other thing, but if you drink more than is healthy for you more than you want to, maybe that started out in college when you were a little nervous socially, and it was a way for you to fit in and then you move to a new city and it was way for you to connect with your coworkers.

And now your peer group doesn't really drink as much, but you're still engaging in that behavior. So I think it's also really important to approach this stuff. Like without shame and understanding. There was a reason that you did that and at a certain point in your life, like honestly made sense you're at a different point in your life and now we're ready to change it.

It doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you are not smart or that you're lazy. It's simply things have changed. And I also tell people all the time is like some of the most famous, successful people that, Oprah has struggled with eating Obamas. I don't know if he still does, but he smoked.

Larry, I think it was Larry King has declared bankruptcy multiple times. Like some of these behaviors, incredibly smart, successful people struggle with this stuff all the time. It doesn't make you less than to struggle with this. So number one, start with it. Start with. One, what is your biggest pain point number two realize that every behavior is in need trying to be met.

And number three, I would say what we want to do is try to figure, and of course the self-defeating behaviors, they have multiple triggers, but again, if you can find the most common triggers. For a self-defeating behavior, you can work towards changing your response to that trigger. It is very hard to change a trigger, but you can change your reactions to the trigger.

So again, working with the example of drinking more than you want to, maybe one of the triggers for you is socializing. So then you can decide. Okay. My friends, my coworkers have invited me to happy hour. I can either not go to happy hour. I can go to happy hour and I can order seltzer. I can order an appetizer.

I can order a Coke. And also if you are comfortable that you can tell your coworkers, Hey, I'm trying to drink less. So if if you see me ordering a beer, call me out on it. Yeah,

Nancy: I like that. Cause I think, especially for that example, W was one of mine that I was trying, and I, so I stopped drinking for a while to try to get that under control.

And it was the idea I, and I was doing, it was the socializing was a big part of it. And then having something at the end of the day, like I liked having a fancy drink at the end of the day. And once I figured out that it was the fancy drink, it didn't matter that it was a glass of wine. It was just that when I'm done with my day, I need something that signifies the end of the day.

Yeah. So that could be an NAB or that could be a juice with seltzer, in a fancy glass. It doesn't matter. But yeah. And it also was getting, having the experience of doing a bunch of social situations without drinking to know that I could do it.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And something that, I think something that I teach my clients as well as something that I call a choice.

Which is I don't try to encourage anybody to go cold Turkey to go from having seven cocktails to only ever having seltzer. But what is one choice up that you could make? So like instead of having four drinks, could you have three instead of driving to target and buying $200 worth of stuff, could you drive to Goodwill and buy 20 bucks of stuff?

What is one choice up that you could make? Something that is. Slightly healthier because for the most personality types going cold turkey is not sustainable. And then you fail and then it reinforces your narrative that you're not good at this. Yeah. Yeah. And it is challenging.

Nancy: I think too. I think a lot of my clients struggle with that idea of that.

If I can go, I still won quote unquote, by going to Goodwill and only spending 20 bucks, make sure you celebrate that win that you made a different choice.

Sarah: . Yes. Yes. And also like you are allowed to take imperfect action in the direction of what you want. Like you do not if you expect yourself to only ever make perfect choices in the direction of your goals and your habit change you're really gonna struggle.

And it's it's okay. It's okay to maybe the habit you're trying to build is going for a 30 minute run seven days a week. You can still give yourself credit for going for a 30 minute block or a 15 minute run. If you are holding yourself to impossibly high standards, the likelihood that you're going to fail and fall off the wagon is very high.

Nancy: So I want to talk about 21 days to create a habit.

Sarah: So that's why, and this is one of the things that like, this is a soap box that I climb on top of. If you've ever read a women's magazine, if you've ever read like a listicle, this is a factoid that's just bandied about honestly, pretty irresponsibly the statistics.

And this is backed by Sociologists psychologists, psychiatrists. It actually takes closer to 65 days to change a habit change from 12 days to 265. And it varies from person to person and have it to have it. So let's say that it took you 65 days to build the habit, to floss your teeth. That does not mean that it's going to take you 65 days to build a workout habit or to build a writing habit or to build a meditation habit.

It, and this is people don't want to hear this, but I think it's so important to know that if you built a flossing habit in 65 days, it might take you 200 days to build a meditation habit, or, maybe it could take you 12. But again, when we set these unrealistic expectations for ourselves, we are so much more likely to fail.

And when we fail and then we start telling ourselves a story I'm not good at this. I can't change. I'm not good at habit change. I should just give up if we are literally making it harder to succeed in the future, because we're strengthening this narrative of what we can and cannot do.

Nancy: So in the 65 days, or just to pull that randomly, is that some of that is the imperfect action.

Sarah: Yes. Yes.

Some of that is failing. Yes, absolutely. So one of the things that I teach in my course habits, school is something that I call a bookmark habit because the parts of my brain, the part of my brain that makes long-term decisions that are in our best interest is different than the part of our brain that makes decisions in the moment.

We've all had the experience where like in the moment, the part of our brain that makes the decision. It doesn't want to, for us, it wants to buy the things that's on sale. It wants to eat the whole bag of pizza rolls. It wants to text our bad news acts. It wants to order three cocktails. But the part of our brain that makes longterm decisions is the part that can say you said you didn't want that.

So I always tell people ahead of time. Let's say you're trying to build the habit of working out every day. So what are you going to do when you're traveling? When you're sick, when the weather's bad, when you have car issues and you can't drive to the damn gym, what is your bookmark habit? What is the sort of the light version of the habit that you can engage in when things are not ideal?

Because if you can come up with that ahead of time, then it's basically a contingency plan. So you already have this plan in place. So then when the weather is bad, Or when you are sick, you have a solution to turn to, instead of just not doing it, because when we don't do it, the likelihood that we're going to give up and fall off the wagon and then reinforce that negative narrative is very high.

Nancy: So give me an example of a bookmark habit for like the working out.

Sarah: So let's say so for me, I walk my dog every day from eight 30 to nine. And that is, I do other stuff, but that's sort of one. Yeah. Bigger workout things. And if it is really cold because she's a little dog, she doesn't want to be outside for half an hour.

We will just do a short walk. If I am sick, I will do something inside during that same time period. Okay. And when I am traveling, I still go for a walk in the morning. I obviously don't have a dog. I don't, I'm not, on a timer. Sometimes I go for a walk at 10, if I'm on vacation, but I still go for a walk in there.

Recently, I usually, I walked it off from eight 30 to nine, but a few weeks ago I had a podcast that I was recording that was at eight 30. So that wasn't an option. So I walked, I took her for a super short walk. I think it was like two blocks. It took seven minutes, but I still kept my promise to myself and I still stayed on the wagon.

I didn't, I didn't tell myself the story that I don't have time for this. I also know myself well enough to know that if I say. I'm not going to walk her now. I'll walk her in the afternoon. That's not going to happen. I know that if I need to walk her, it needs to happen in the morning.

And sometimes I don't walk or sometimes it's just me walking myself because putting her in her snowsuit and putting Musher's wax on a project, it's too much of an endeavor. So I just walk away.

Nancy: So it's not only the commitment to the activity. It's the commitment to the time.

Sarah: Yes. And that's for me some people, that's not an option because of the realities of their schedule, but that's an easy way to do it.

This time has been blocked off for this activity and maybe I can't do the activity in that exact way, but I can do something related to that actually.

Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. I like that. So as I'm creating the habit I'm not, I'm also, I'm in this example, I'm creating the time I'm creating the habit, but am I, do I have baby steps or are my all in.

Sarah:

You mean? Do you start out like not working out, like you work up to work more? For me, because this is literally just walking my dog, so it's not hard, but I wouldn't say let's say your habit was going to the gym. What I always tell people is the habit is going to the gym.

We're not talking about taking it super, like taking a hit class. We are not talking about whaling on your glutes for 45 minutes. The habit is going to the gym. Keeping your promise to yourself is going to the. Sometimes you can go to the gym and literally walk on the treadmill on the slowest pace for half an hour or sit in the hot tub.

But we are building the habit of putting on workout clothes and getting yourself to the gym, swiping yourself in and being there for a set period of time. And then once you've got that habit, once you've done that, and you're keeping your commitment to going to the gym, then we can start worrying about, arguing.

What are you doing when you're there so much? I think a lot of people are so resistant when I tell them that because they want to dive into, going to the gym five days a week and then really going hard out. That doesn't work. Like y'all can try it, but it doesn't work.

Nancy: Because as you were describing that about going to the gym and just, going to the hot tub or just swiping and like my stomach started going, oh oh, that sounds no, I want to do it whole hog. But no, that makes a lot of sense.

Sarah: Yeah. And like you can there's no, I'm not saying that you can't go whole-hog but allow yourself. Go whole hog on Tuesday and then on Wednesday, go and sit in the hot tub and on Thursday, be on the treadmill and then on Friday, go whole hog again. But it's about keeping your commitment to yourself.

And again, and also like any physical therapist or trainer will tell you, like going whole hog seven days a week is not actually good for your body. Like you need recovery.

Nancy: So it's so in that example, my habit is I'm going to start trying to build the habit of going to the gym. And then I get that habit.

Like I go to the gym, I do my thing. Then I'm trying to build the habit of going 30 minutes on the treadmill.

Sarah: Yes. Yes. And I would also say you probably want to do, you don't want to go to the gym and sit in the hot tub seven days a week. Like you want to do something, but I think ultimately people will get bored sitting in the hot tub seven days a week, but just start out by Really cementing that habit and something else that I tell people too, when they're resistant to this approach is the time is going to pass anyway, your life is going to continue anyway.

So why not do this slowly? So it works because when you ask so much of yourself and you push yourself so hard, the likelihood that you're gonna fail is very high. If you have 20 years left of your life or 40 years left of your life or 50 years left of your life, why not do it slowly and get it to work?

Like what's the rush? Do it right. Do it slowly build these habits that can last for the rest of your life, rather than doing this feast and famine sprint and fail thing.

Nancy: Yeah, that's so true. And I really like what you said about honoring the commitment to yourself. And that's what this is about.

Like I'm going to the gym, not because I need to go whole hog, but because I made a commitment that I want to be working out more and that I feel better when I do and all that underneath the habit. Yes. Cause sometimes my listeners get really stuck in the, check it off the list instead.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. And you can check it off the list that you went to the gym, even when you just worked on the treadmill for 30 minutes, like you're allowed to check that off.

Yeah. Cause that's the habit.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. I love that. That's a thank you for walking us through that because I think that's was helpful. Okay. Then my last question for you is just because my listeners absolutely love systems and they have a belief that if they find the right system, everything in their life will be perfect.

Which I know is a myth, everyone out there but I want to hear about the Pomodoro technique that you use.

Sarah: Oh my God.

So if you are not familiar, the Pomodoro technique is you monotask, which basically just means doing focus, work for twenty-five minutes, and then it's and you get five minute breaks. And during the break you do something that is unrelated to the other task that you were doing. So maybe. So it is not spending 25 minutes writing emails and then spending five minutes on Facebook.

It's 25 minutes on emails, five minutes, taking the laundry out of the machine or 25 minutes working on a presentation five minutes, like going and getting a coffee from the break room. And something I would also add knowing the personality type of your listeners is that it can be very tempting that like when you're in flow, When you're in the zone in that twenty-five minutes and think, oh, I'm just going to keep going.

The timer went off and I'm going to keep going, resist that urge, because I know what I have found with myself when I do that, I will work really focused for maybe an hour and a half. And then I am completely 100% burnt out, burnt down to a Frizzle, and I can't do anything else for the rest of the day.

Cause I've overworked. So really take those breaks. Because when I do that and when I take those breaks, I can sustain really focused work for hours at a time. Whereas when I just do some huge stretch where I work without any breaks for two hours, the rest of the day is useless because I'm so burnt out.

Nancy: Cause I, when I've done this, I totally agree. Cause I've definitely, every time I hit the 25 minutes, I'm like, oh, I'll just keep going. And and you're right when I have done that it bites me in the butt, but sometimes I find that the five. Like I'll go down to do laundry. And then I get, it turns into 10, 15.

Sarah: Yep that definitely happens. And sometimes depending on the situation, sometimes I'll be like, you know what? Like I need to finish. I've put the laundry in the machine. I'm not going to leave. So sometimes I will finish it, but it just depends on the thing. And sometimes I'll, I'll have a spend my five minute break doing like stretches or cleaning the kitchen where it's something I can just abandon when time is up.

Nancy: And is this mind brain chemistry scientific neurologically how we work?

Sarah: Yes. Yes. Because the amount of time that we can spend in a focused task I think, I think humans can actually spend more than 25 minutes, but sustaining. Over the course of, seven, eight hours that is quite difficult.

And the other thing that I do that I think can be helpful for your listeners is when I have my to-do list for the day, I do not write like finish sales page or, finish that presentation. I say, spend two hours on that presentation and then I'll write four little circles for four Pomodoros.

And then I will color them in as I complete them because we often lovely. We're often very wrong about how much time we think something will take. And if we say, if we set the goal of finished that sales page, and then we don't finish it, we feel terrible. But if we S if we set the goal of spend two hours on that sales page, we can do that.

We can say yes, I kept my promise to myself. I spent two hours on that sales page. I love that. Cause that's so freaking true. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. It takes, it really takes me about a week and a half to write a good sales page which I learned the hard way, because I would, set the goal for myself to finish my sales page, in four hours.

And that is not how it works,

Nancy: no, not at all. So is there a resource you'd recommend to learn more about Pomodoro.

Sarah: I would say just Google it. And it's not much more complicated than I just explained. I know that their app, you can download and stuff and there's a website, but honestly I just have a timer in my phone.

I have two timers that are saved. One that is 25 minutes and I use a little emoji of a laptop with that timer. Okay. And then I have a five minute timer saved and I think there's like a person walking for the emotive.

Nancy: Okay. That's awesome. Okay. So now tell me about where my clients can find you, how they can work with you, all that good stuff.

Sarah: Yes. I am most active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram stories every single day. My website is yes and yes. Dot org. I have been blocked. For God, 11 years. So there are literally thousands of blog posts in the archives. So anything you want to know about like money, habits, goals, mindset, there's stuff in the archives about it.

I have several online courses that I run make it to Cabot school. There's a self-paced version of that, that you can. Sign up for it at any time.

Okay, Sarah, thank you so much. This was really helpful and just I'd love to pick your brain. So it was helpful.

Sarah: Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy: It was helpful for me as well as my listeners. So that's awesome. The one thing Sarah kept repeating over and over was small manageable changes the opposite of my old pattern around habits.

They are not about all or nothing. So first we need to change our way of thinking that to create a habit. We have to do something big and permanent and forever. Creating healthy habits is about being intentional, honoring yourself, all that self loyalty I talk about and making them small and realists. Be intentional, be kind and make small, simple commitments to yourself.

That is way less dramatic than my old way of being, but far more productive.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

---

Episode 125: Acknowledging Feelings When They Don’t Seem Appropriate

In today’s episode, continuing the deep dive into feelings. Today, I am going to explore what to do when your feelings just don’t seem appropriate.

When my mom told me she wouldn’t be visiting for Easter this year – choosing to visit a friend instead – I experienced a flood of emotions. 

I immediately felt disappointed and sad.

Easter isn’t a big deal in our family – we don’t even go to church – but I was still looking forward to seeing her. I was bummed. 

And then my Monger started sounding off: “What’s the big deal? She’s allowed to go to visit her friend, and it isn’t like you are a deeply religious family or anything. You are so uptight and rigid! This shouldn’t make you sad.” 

The rest of the day, when I would feel sad or disappointed, the voice of the Monger would swoop in and tell me that my feelings were irrational and I would feel terrible about myself.  

But here is the thing: feelings happen. It doesn’t matter if the feelings make sense or not. You are still having them, and that is more than okay, no matter what your Monger is telling you. 

Today, we are continuing this month’s deep dive into the F word. In episode 119, I introduced the topic of Acknowledging your feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety, and last week, I addressed 2 of the fears we have about feelings. Today, I am going to explore what to do when your feelings just don’t seem appropriate. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What happens when we don’t give ourselves permission to feel and confuse the natural response of acknowledging our feelings with demanding a behavior change.

• How it is a myth that if we feel sad that means we have to take action on that feeling

• Why the idea of”‘changing our thoughts” or “fixing our mindsets” never works

• How when we have High Functioning Anxiety we learn to compartmentalize those feelings, putting them in a box deep inside, never seeing them again

Research and resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 119: Acknowledging your feelings

• Episode 124: The 2 Biggest Fears About Feeling Your Feelings

+ Read the Transcript

My mom won't be here for Easter this year. She's visiting a friend instead. This shouldn't make me sad. I mean, Easter isn't a big deal in our family. We don't even go to church, but regardless I told my husband, I'm just sad that she isn't going to be here for Easter. I mean, I know that's just silly. My husband interrupted me and said, "So what if it doesn't make sense? That's how you're feeling."

It does drive me crazy when he uses my own words of advice against me. But this time, it was exactly what I needed to hear. I took a huge exhale and smiled for the first time that day.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

After my mom announced that she was headed to visit a friend for Easter, I immediately felt disappointed and sad. And then my Monger stepped in. "I mean, what's the big deal she's allowed to go to visit her friend. It isn't like you're a deeply religious family. You're just so uptight and rigid."

My Monger was off to the races calling me too sensitive, too rigid, too traditionalistic on and on and on the rest of the day. When I would feel sad or disappointed, she would swoop in. I admit it; even now, I'm a little embarrassed to share this story with you. My Monger is still hammering me for being too sensitive, but here's the thing.

And this is what I want to explore on today's episode feelings happen. As my husband said, it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. It's a feeling. Today, we're continuing our deep dive into the F-word. I talk about acknowledging your feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety. And in episode 119, I introduced the topic last week.

I address two of the fears we have about feelings. And today, I want to dive deeper into this idea of feelings when they just don't seem appropriate. When we have high functioning anxiety, we learn to compartmentalize those feelings, to put them in a box deep inside, and never see them again. As I said last week, not only have you buried your feelings, but you take a lot of pride in the fact that you can control your feelings, that you don't let your feelings run amuck, like those needy emotional people who can't control themselves.

Yep. Again, that's a common refrain of our BFS. We do it better because we can control our emotions. Or so we think, but in reality, those feelings come out via our anxiety, anger, frustration, and passive-aggressiveness. The truth is it's not about the feeling. The feeling is a natural response. My sadness and disappointment about mom not being here for Easter is just that it's a natural physiological response.

The problem is that in our society and in our high functioning anxiety brains, we've linked that feeling too. If I feel sad, that means I have to take action on that feeling. That is a myth. We do not have to take action on our feelings. All we have to do is acknowledge they're there and soften it. I can acknowledge the sadness and give my mom a big hug and be thrilled for her to go visit her friend.

Both can be true just because I'll be disappointed that my mom won't be here for Easter. It doesn't mean that anything about her Easter plans needs to change or that she needs to feel bad for going to visit her friend, or that I need to feel shame for feeling sad and discipline. This is the part we get mixed up.

We mistakenly believe that if we acknowledge the sadness, then we need to fix it. We need to do something to not feel sad anymore. Nope. Sadness is a natural response, and when we can acknowledge it and soften into it, we can get to the other side so much faster. Here's what we tend to do. And definitely what I would have done in the past.

My mom announces she's not going to be here for Easter. I feel sad and disappointed and then tell myself to get over it. As the days and weeks go along, I keep telling myself to get over it. Don't be so sensitive. She's a grown woman who can make her own choices, blah, blah, blah. Then right before Easter, she's talking about her trip, and I say something passive-aggressive, like, "Must be nice to be traveling over the holiday. We'll certainly miss you as we color eggs." Or maybe I might even be more indirect and just complain to my husband over and over and over again about how my mom is ditching me for Easter. And it becomes this very big deal. When in reality, it's not. Often I will talk about having a 10 reaction to a two situations when our Mongers are running the show, and we aren't acknowledging our feelings. We will take a benign situation and blow it up to be huge.

So the situation with my mom goes from being simply disappointed to questioning whether she really loves me at all. This is what happens when we don't give ourselves permission to feel when we confuse the natural response of acknowledging our feelings with demanding a behavior. Okay. So what if this is a situation where I do have a response?

What if instead of Easter, which is a minor holiday for my family, it's Christmas, which is a major holiday for my family. What if my mom decided she wasn't going to do Christmas? Again, I would acknowledge the feelings, sadness, disappointment, anger, and confusion. Then, I could step back and react after acknowledging those feelings.

I might decide to talk to mom and hear her thinking behind ditching Christmas. Since I had given myself permission to feel the sadness, disappointment, anger, and confusion, I can relatively calmly listen to her side of the story. And we can figure out a way around it. Maybe she wants to ditch Christmas because she feels unappreciated, or it's too much. Or she just wants to go somewhere warm. Whatever the reason, when we can allow our emotions and recognize that our emotions don't dictate our behavior, we can have a much calmer discussion. The power of acknowledging our emotions is why the idea of changing your thoughts or fixing your mindset never works because all day Sunday, I was trying to change my thoughts and fix my mindset.

I kept telling myself to be grateful for all the years. I had Easter with my mom to give her a break. She can do whatever she wants, and it's just a thought that I want to spend Easter with her. None of those mindset ideas worked until I acknowledged my feelings until that moment in the car when my husband said, so what I hadn't softened into anything.

I was so busy trying to unsuccessfully change my mindset. Once, he reminded me, I had permission to feel and that it wasn't linked to my actions or behavior. I was able to see the whole situation differently. I didn't have to convince myself that I was wrong or that mom was right. Both could be true. I could be sad.

She could go to California, and the world could keep turning grudges drama. Passive aggressiveness is caused by shaming ourselves for our feelings, trying to jump too quickly into changing our mindset, or thinking that having an emotion means we get to react to it. Recently I was watching the TV show Tommy, which is about the first female LAPD chief.

At one point, Tommy's daughter confronts her and says, there's always going to be a part of me that wishes my life was more important than the 4 million citizens you keep safe. And I know their lives are more important, but as your daughter, I wish you put me first, and I feel selfish and embarrassed saying that, but there it is.

And Tommy, her mom, who's played by Eddie Falco, smiled and hugged her and said, thank you so much for saying that. Honestly, I appreciate you sharing it. I loved the scene because the daughter shared all the messiness of feelings, the irrationality, the embarrassment, and her mom just listened. She didn't get defensive.

She didn't start drama or get petty. They both recognize that having a feeling does not mean there needs to be an action or reaction. Sometimes it's just about acknowledging the feeling in all its messiness. I think one of the things we hate about feelings is. They're out of control. They're a major unknown.

So my challenge to you is to own that own, that they're messy and scary. We spend way too much of our time running from them. And all that is doing is causing anxiety. So let's try it a different way. Let's lean into those biological responses rather than futilely pretending they just don't exist.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 124: The 2 Biggest Fears About Feeling Your Feelings

In today’s episode, I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. when she realizes she doesn’t have enough hours in the day.

Here is a common scenario in my world: I had a lot to get done – back-to-back client meetings and deadlines looming. My anxiety was through the roof!

I kept telling myself, “you need to acknowledge your feelings,” knowing that it helps when I am stuck in anxiety. But it wasn’t working. I kept coming up sad and overwhelmed. No matter how many times I tried, I wasn’t getting any relief.

At the end of the day–-meetings over, deadlines met – I was still spinning with anxiety. I realized I had gone through the whole day without really feeling anything. Every time I had gone through the motions of naming my emotions, they were quickly hijacked by my Monger saying, “Feeling sad is a waste of time. You don’t have time for this nonsense. Move on and focus!”

This is a common experience for many of my clients. We shame ourselves for feeling our feelings. We tell ourselves that we don’t have enough time for them, that we won’t get anything done by feeling things. Or, worse, we fear that allowing ourselves to experience our emotions would open up a bottomless pit of despair that we would never be able to find our way out of. 

In today’s episode, I want to dive a little deeper into the F word. I talk about Acknowledge your Feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety. In episode 119, I introduced the topic, but today I want to dive a little deeper and answer some of the questions that I receive from clients and listeners about feelings. 

Feelings are a big part of my coping strategy around my anxiety. Allowing my feelings and facing them has been a game-changer for me. I KNOW the fear that doing this will open the flood gates, that all the feelings will come out and overwhelm. So, in this episode, I address some common fears about acknowledging your feelings.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to allow your feeling even when you are afraid that it will lead to overwhelming despair

• How to acknowledge your feeling when it seems like that will just add to the stress you are already experiencing

• How our feelings don’t just go away if we ignore them but will show up in other places

• How acknowledging our feelings isn't something you have to DO because it is something your body naturally does – you just have to give yourself permission.

Resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 119: Acknowledging your feelings

+ Read the Transcript

I had a lot to get done. Client meetings, a number of deadlines to make my anxiety was through the roof. I kept saying to myself, you need to acknowledge your feelings because I know it's so helpful for me when I'm stuck in anxiety, and what kept coming up is sad and overwhelmed, but that wasn't working.

It wasn't giving me any relief. No matter how many times I tried. At the end of the day, meetings over deadlines hit and still spinning with anxiety. I realized I hadn't really felt anything. I'd gone through the motions of acknowledging my feelings, but every time I named them, I was quickly hijacked by my monger saying, you don't have time for this feeling.

Sad is a waste of time. Move on and focus. Finally, I realized I hadn't really acknowledged my feelings. I had just named them. And then my monger had shamed me for them. So again, I tried to name my feelings, and I had another major aha. This time when I named them, I actually allowed them rather than shaming myself. My biggest fan chimed in and said, whoa, it's just so hard to feel sad, especially when you don't know why.

Almost immediately. My shoulders dropped. I got a little teary just from feeling the compassion and kindness. And then I moved on with my evening. Yes. Earlier in the day, I was naming my feelings. Yes. I was saying them out loud, but what followed was my monger saying, well, that's not appropriate. That is ridiculous.

How can you be feeling that way? So I wasn't actually acknowledging and allowing my feelings. I was saying them and then slamming them down with criticism and judgment. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. This idea of shaming ourselves for feelings, not having enough time for them, or telling ourselves we will enter a pit of despair and never get out. If we feel anything is common for not just me but many of my clients in today's episode, I want to dive a little deeper into the F.

I talk about acknowledging your feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety, and then in episode 119, I introduced the topic, but today I want to dive a little deeper and address two of the fears that clients talk to me the most about when it comes to feelings. As I was writing the happier approach and doing my research on quieting the Munger, I realized the importance of allowing your feelings.

I'd always given lip service to this idea. I mean, I'm a therapist by training, but personally, in my own life, I would run from feelings, push them down, channel them into work and let my anxiety run them. Now feelings are a big part of my coping strategy around my anxiety. Allowing my feelings and facing them has been a game-changer for me.

And I know the hesitancy, the fear that you'll open up the flood gates, and all the feelings will come out and overwhelm you. So let's address some of these common fears about feelings, fear, number one. Okay. You say to allow your feelings, but I'm afraid if I feel my feelings, I will be lost in a bottomless-pit-of-despair.

Man. Oh, man. Do I understand this fear when you've spent most of your life packaging up your feelings, sticking them in a box, bearing that box deep inside. The idea of letting these mysterious sensations into the forefront is scary. Not only have you buried your feelings, but you take a lot of pride in the fact that you can control your feelings, that you don't let your feelings run amuck.

Like those needy emotional people who can't control them. Yep. That's a common refrain of our BFS. We do it better because we can control ourselves. So my first pushback is really, are you in control of your feelings because feelings might not be showing themselves, but all that pushing and burying is exhausting.

So frequently, we are exhausted with headaches, stomach problems. We have lots of anxiety or depression, and we are big fans of numbing with alcohol, food, exercise, TV games, et cetera. Not to mention that we tend to push those closest to us away because true intimacy comes from vulnerability. And when we're cutting off huge parts of ourselves, there is no vulnerability.

So no, you don't have this feeling things mastered. You just think you. Imagine you're standing on the 50-yard line of a football field to your right is the end zone for team-bottomless-pit-of-despair. And on your left is the end zone for the team-I-got-this. If you start in team-I-got-this in the end zone, and you allow yourself to acknowledge a feeling.

And even if you start crying, In response to your sadness, you will have only made it to the 20-yard line. It might feel like you're almost in the bottomless-pit-of-despair end zone, but you're still 80 yards away. The chances of you getting to the bottomless-pit-of-despair end zone is highly unlikely.

The truth is you're not wired to be someone who swims around on your feelings and gets stuck there. It's just not your way. So when you start tapping into a feeling and things come up. Remind yourself that you are nowhere near the bottomless-pit-of-despair, even though it might feel like. I remember the day we found out my dad had dementia.

My first response was to research everything I learned as much as I could about his illness. I figured the more I knew, the more in control I would be. The challenge was they don't know a lot about dementia, and there were many, many unknowns after I'd researched as much as possible. I poured myself a glass of wine and started calling people to share the news.

I called my best friend and shared the data of what was happening. No tears, no sadness, just data. And she responded with the appropriate. Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. And I responded with, I know this is huge. I can't believe it. And went into the research that I'd found and the data. No feelings, no sadness. We hung up the phone.

I poured another glass of wine, and I sat alone in the kitchen for a minute before I decided to call another friend. Again, the same thing, no feelings, just data, same shock response. Hang up, sit alone, start to feel, rinse and repeat. And when I ran out of close friends, I pour myself another glass of wine, and I reached for the chocolate, telling myself I was engaging in self-care.

In reality, I was letting my BFF run the show, stay hopped up, numb out. Don't feel anything. In my mind, I was doing what I should be doing, reaching out, asking for help sharing my news. But in reality, I was delivering a news report. I was telling people so I could avoid the quiet it wasn't asking for help.

I wasn't letting people in, and I wasn't being vulnerable. I was sharing data each time I told someone it hot me up more. It pulled me out of my feelings and into my anxiety. So I had some wine to offset that anxiety. If I could go back 12 years, I would do it differently. I would still research because I love to research, and it helps me feel in control.

But this time, I would say to myself, wow, this is hard. Oh, sweet pea. This sucks. So many unknowns, so much out of your control. And this is your dad. You're larger than life, Dad, who is going to slowly lose his mind. His worst fear is coming to reality. Allow the tears allow the fear, allow the doubts because by allowing those feelings to be honest with my experience, I wouldn't get stuck in anxiety or solving the problem or doing something I could take action from a calmer, more loving, kind place.

I remember the first time I really allowed the feelings at an inappropriate time. I was driving to work, and I heard a song that reminded me of my dad, and I started to cry. My normal response would be to say, stop crying. We don't have time to deal with this. I was standing at the 20-yard line of the, I got this end zone, scared as hell that if I shed a tear, I would run the 80 yards into the pit.

Get it together. I told myself I could feel the pit in my stomach as I tried to push everything into that box. And then my biggest fan popped in and just whispered, just let it happen. So I did. I cried big ugly gasping tears as I drove to work, telling myself over and over it's okay.

And then, two minutes later, it was gone. The pit in my stomach was gone. My tears dried up, and I felt a huge relief. It worked this whole acknowledging the feelings thing. I got to work popped into the bathroom. Assuming I would look a mess and was shocked to see that I looked fine—no makeup streaming down my face.

It was just me and my sad eyes looking back at me, allowing the feelings feels foreign and uncomfortable, but in the end, it leads to much, much less anxiety and drama. The next fear I hear a lot is I'm stressed out all the time. I need to get out of my feelings, not feel more. So here's a story from Emily.

Someone I recently worked with, Emily, has had a tough year. Her ex-husband harps on her about every little thing when it comes to the shared custody of their sons, her company is going through some restructuring there. So there's a lot of unknowns in the workplace, and her mom's breast cancer just recently returned.

She is overwhelmed, to say the least recently. I mentioned to Emily that she needed to feel her feelings. And her response was, "I have no problem being angry and sad. I'm the first to share all the hard times I'm going through and complain about them. I feel like I get stuck in my feelings. I take them out of my kids. I feel stressed out all the time. I need to get out of them, not have more of them." To which I thought to myself, you do a great job of justifying your feelings and replaying the events that leave you feeling stuck, but you don't ever allow yourself to feel anything. You just intellectualize.

I used to be just like Emily; I would feel stressed and then spend the rest of the day justifying why I was stressed, listing off all the stressors, but never allowing myself to soften into the anger, sadness, and frustration.

Just replaying the things I was stressed about over and over and over. I would argue that Emily wasn't feeling anything. She was simply naming all the bad things in her life. She wasn't allowing herself to feel them. She wasn't owning her anger or giving herself a chance to experience it. She would just label the event that justified her anger and move on.

When we spend our time justifying and intellectualizing our stress, we are dancing in the shallow end. Think of it like entering the ocean. And the water is chilly. As you wade in and you stand in the shallow end, and the cold waves keep splashing, you. You just stand there getting slapped by the cold waves, never actually getting in the water.

Similarly, when we replay our wrongs, we just keep getting hit with the cold waves. But when we wade in all the way in and immerse ourselves in the cold water, when we allow the anger to come over us and feel the pain completely. We will feel better when we soften in to what is happening head-on. We can assimilate and find relief when we accept our anger. It dissipates when we accept the cold water and allow our body to adjust it dissipates, but standing in the shallow end saying how cold the water is. It doesn't feel good. And it doesn't.

Recently, Emily sent me an email. She shared how she did end up losing her job. The company was downsizing, and she was one of the casualties. Emily came home from work and was devastated. She called her partner for support, and he immediately jumped into problem-solving mode, remembering our conversation.

She stopped him mid suggestion and said, "You know what, today? I just want to be pissed off. I just want to be angry because this sucks. Tomorrow I will solve the problem. Today, I'm just pissed." As she was telling me this story, she said, "I was shocked that came out of my mouth, but I did just want one day to be angry."

This is acknowledging your feelings. Emily allowed herself to feel angry because she was legit angry in her email. She shared how skeptical she was about the process but how much better she felt? I didn't feel like a victim like I thought I would. Feeling the anger empowered me. I was amazed at how much it helped.

Acknowledging your feelings isn't something you have to do. It's something your body naturally does. You just have to give yourself permission. So the next time you notice yourself listing off all the negatives in your life, ask yourself, how does this make me feel with each response? Just allow yourself to soften and give yourself some empathy and kindness, such as, oh, that sucks. Or, oh, sweet pea. And then ask yourself again. How does this make me feel? At first, you might have to ask yourself multiple times before you soften into the actual feeling. This process allows you to move past the shallow end and swim into the deep water. Riding those waves. It's life-changing. Here's what I know to be true about feelings.

Feelings are messy. They're individual. Each person experiences them, deals with them, and faces them differently. Feelings are legit. They are biological responses to what's happening in our world. Feelings can't keep us stuck, but our thoughts about our feelings can, and if we don't feel our feelings, they will show up in other places.

They don't go away if we ignore them. When we stay hopped up in our anxiety, we miss the colors of life. We miss the nuances, the connections, the experiences, the feelings. I know feelings are messy, and I know we hate messy, but when you can trust yourself enough to allow this natural process, your life will shift, and your anxiety will decrease. Envision yourself, standing on the 20-yard line and looking way down the field at the bottomless-pit-of-despair, and remind yourself, I'm 80 yards away, just feel.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 123: Helping Women Design A Life They Love While Avoiding Burnout

In this episode, I chat with Rebelle's Shannon Siriano Greenwood who went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number.

We have all heard this story: 

A woman has hit rock bottom. She is burnt out and is experiencing her dark night of the soul. Cornered by life, she feels like she has nowhere to turn.  

And then, miraculously, she has some major ah-ha moment–lightning strikes and everything is fixed. Birds sing, everyone breaks out into song, and the struggle is gone.  

I used to be addicted to these transformational stories. 

These stories gave me hope that permanent change was possible. That one day I would be healed. I would be perfect. 

The truth is, these stories of sudden transformative change keep us trapped and miserable. They feed us the lie that if we are still it is because something is wrong with us. They tell us that we haven’t suffered enough or that we haven’t been good enough to be transformed.

My guest today, Shannon Siriano Greenwood, went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number. 

Shannon is the founder of Rebelle, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries, and Rebelle Con, a boutique conference about wellness, money, community, and creativity. Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned going through her own dark night of the soul experience. 

Shannon is committed to change and to mental health as an on-going daily practice. As you will hear, some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Shannon’s friends and family did not say anything even though they thought she was pushing too hard

• What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults

• How to manage your energy as an introvert when you are trying to build new relationships

• How to set boundaries when you have not only a fear of missing out but a fear of hurting people

And what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways

Resources Mentioned:

• RebelleCon

• @ssiriano
  

• @rebellecon

+ Read the Transcript

Shannon: And yeah, it took so much to slow me down, which is why I recognize just how deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and I am hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter. But I think coming from such an extreme case, it makes me that much more empathetic to how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode.

Nancy: We've all heard the stories a woman goes through burnout, woman hits rock bottom woman goes through a dark night of the soul, has some major ahas. And she says, I am healed. Everything is fixed. Birds sing. Everyone breaks out into song and the struggle has gone. I used to be addicted to these transformational stories.

They gave me hope that permanent change was possible. And that one day I would be healed. Perfect. I now know that this hope was false. In reality, these stories keep us trapped and miserable because they feed the lie that if we're still struggling, it's because something is wrong with us. We haven't suffered enough, or we haven't been good enough to be transformed.

My guest today Shannon Siriano Greenwood did go through burnout, but her story was far from simple and wrapped in a bow. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Shannon Siriano. Greenwood is the founder of rebel, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries to share and learn from one another and founder of rebel con a boutique conference that brings speakers from across the country on such topics as wellness, money, community, and creativity.

Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned. She needed the most after her dark night of the soul experience. Shannon does an amazing job of sharing what her story taught her about the changes she had to make in her life and how her commitment to her mental health is an ongoing daily practice.

As you will hear some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. Shannon and I talk about her story of burnout, not just that transformational story, but the nitty gritty details. Why her friends and family did not say anything, even though they thought she was pushing too hard.

What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults being an introvert and how to manage your energy when you're trying to build new relationships. Saying no and setting boundaries when you've not only a fear of missing out, but a fear of hurting people and what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways.

Shannon. I'm so excited to have you here and to get your insights into letting go of the striveaholic in all of us or working on letting go of the striveaholic.

Shannon: Thank you for the clarification.

Nancy: (Laughing) That's why this is going to be a good one for people.

So I just want to hear you talk about how you're helping women navigate, designing a life that they love while avoiding the cultural pitfalls, telling us to hustle more and ride the edge of burnout. Would you say that's accurate?

Shannon: I would say that's the goal.

Absolutely. Whether I'm successful or not is not really any of my business. Exactly. But absolutely. The whole reason for my business. And the work that I do was my own experience with burnout and the fact that while I was burning out multiple times in my life no one, really saw anything wrong

Nancy: oh, isn't that telling?

So I want to hear that story and not from the pretty looking back. Here's the bow. Oh, I learned all these things, but from the nitty-gritty. What was it like being in it? How did you recognize it? How did you not recognize it?

Shannon: You don’t just want my hero journey. (Laughing)

Nancy: No, I do not. (laughing)

Shannon: I guess I'll give you the real story.

I burned out multiple times in my life and I think the most recent one was the most grand of all of those were announced. And sadly for me to even be aware of what it was, it had to be super grand. I have always, worked very hard. That's a value that my parents would probably say is one of the things they're most proud of me for how hard I work and how I'm willing to do what it takes to get the thing done.

These are all, Good qualities if in control, but not when, out of control, which is, how it actually works in real life. Let me paint the picture for what my life looked like. I worked a full-time job that I absolutely loved as the director of marketing for this really fun restaurant nightclub entertainment venue, but then I had the entrepreneurial itch.

So I started a business on the side, which was a boutique cycling studio so spinning. So this is before boutique fitness was really a huge thing. So it was definitely a risk at the time. Put my own money into this business, but started the studio. It was going really great. And then three months into me working full-time and running this business on the side, I got pregnant with my first baby.

Nancy: Oh wow.

Shannon: And I was teaching four fitness classes a week.

Nancy: Oh my gosh.

Shannon: Managing all the things. And I was used to piling it all on. So I just thought when I have this baby, I'm just going to strap him on and keep doing all these things. And so even what's funny to me is other mothers, knowing what it's like to actually have a human being like come from your body and then take care of it and keep it alive. No one questioned me. They all looked at me and saw me as this totally capable person that can handle more stress than the average person. And no one gave me any because for pause.

And so had this baby strapped them on, tried to keep doing what I was doing and obviously it came to a screeching halt. When I was suffering from postpartum depression brought on by all of the things by doing way too much and overextending and not taking care of myself and just having, the hormones and actual chemical things that go on in your body after you have it.

So I started having suicidal thoughts and I would walk around my neighborhood and pray that a car would hit me and think about in detail what the angle, it would have to hit me, but not hit the stroller. And just going through this mind, I was like, all right. If I see a car, like how close do I need to be?

Just also I was, really like thinking through it a lot. And even that wasn't a flag for me. Okay. So I just thought, all right, I just need to reorganize my life. So I quit the job. I was like, I can't do both. I'm just going to do the business and the baby and teach and that's too much.

It's just too much. I still didn't feel better.

Nancy: So wait, let me pause. You recognized, so you recognized it was too much.

Shannon: I recognize it was too much, but not a problem. This is I just need a new system so I can figure this out.

Nancy Totally. Okay.

Shannon: So this is how high functioning I am. And so then I'm like, you know what, still not happy.

I think it's this business. I'm not getting along with my partner. I think if I get rid of her, then I'll be okay. And, our partnership dissolved and ended up I ended up leaving. She kept the business. So quit the job. Sold the business decided that I'm keeping this baby because I did grow him and I'm an energy, so I'm gonna keep him, (Nancy Laughing) but still just total mess and would just have bouts of crying for hours and hours.

And again though, no one around me saying Shannon, these are signs that something really bad is happening. And so it wasn't until I was at the pediatrician with my first baby, he had a little cold, nothing bad. I am at the pediatrician sitting in the lobby, hysterically crying, just openly weeping, convulsing and crying.

And I had this light bulb I've never seen anyone else crying like this in public ever.

Maybe something is going on. (both laughing)

Maybe I should take this recommendation of a friend and find a therapist or a doctor. And yeah. It took so much to slow me down. Which is why I recognize just how like deep, deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter, but I think coming from such an extreme case it makes me that much more empathetic.

Really how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that's my not beautiful story.

Nancy: I love it. So do you think you would have heard them if the people would have said anything?

Shannon: No I think I was in such denial of what control I had over things, it was just a problem that I needed to fix for myself.

No one else had the answer or advice or anything that I needed to hear.

Nancy: But I think it's interesting because it is, it wasn't that they didn't care. It wasn't that they didn't notice it was, she has this, like you had convinced them. That is how good you were.

Shannon: That's one of my greatest strengths and like worst weaknesses, that I can convince people just about anything. And that I'm fine. When I'm fantasizing about cars running into me

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I actually wrote a blog about that. If you're, if you are, because it's pretty common.

Because then it's oh, then I can get a break, then I can rest

Shannon: Worst case scenario. I die best case scenario, right? I'm in the hospital for awhile and someone else has to deal with all my stuff. And I can just be in the hospital again, not thoughts that you should have exactly when your life is in balance, right?

Nancy Yeah. Okay. So this happens. What did you do.

Shannon: Yeah. I got on the waiting list to see a therapist because let me tell you, it is hard to find a therapist. And so I called all these places, including my OB GYN, who should have been also looking out for these signs of depression after having a baby, but it's mistake.

Because I'm really good at faking. And I was on the wait list there too. So I waited for a couple of weeks. And then fortunately I got in to see someone and even just the recognition of yeah, no, this is not you. Something is going on with you. You probably have things going on in your life that are causing you extra stress.

And you're adding the layers on top of things, but. you have anxiety and depression and you need to deal with that. And then you'll be able to deal with other things, even just that awareness was like, game-changing okay. But then I use my like old habits of like hustle hustle to fix my anxiety and depression.

So I hired a life coach. And I went to an energy healer and hired a dietician to help me work on my diet. And like literally went right back into those terrible habits of like, all right now that I know I'm going to fix this and I'm going to find out all these things about myself and then it wasn't until I like got a little further down the path that I realized oh, you're doing it again.

Nancy: (laughing) Yeah. It is insidious.

Shannon: it's just how I operate. Problem. And I'm going to fix it. I don't know all the different ways that it can be fixed and go until it's fixed. And that you can't fix yourself because you're always healing and working and journeying. So there wasn't a destination.

Nancy: How do you catch it? Because worthiness and achievement. Are so linked in our brains. Yeah. How did you start pulling that apart?

Shannon: And I would say I'm sure I still fall into those types of habits. There is no fix, but one of the things that I did was my therapist and my life coach have the red flags to watch out for, from me.

So like I gave my support network kind of the, veto card of what if they start seeing certain habits or me starting to say certain things, they know that now it's tap the brakes. And you are not operating from the place that you want to be operating from. And that was really essential for me, especially when I decided to have a second baby that I was like, I need people around me that aren't going to be afraid to challenge me that I've given permission to challenge me. If they start seeing me go down this path,

Nancy: Was that hard for you to ask for that?

Shannon: No, because I was in such a deep despair that it was very aware that there was no other option.

Nancy: Okay. Because that is the key, the support team and, giving them permission to call you out and be like, wow, this is one of your red flags.

Shannon: yeah. And I would say for me, it was essential that those people were outside of my circle. If that makes sense it can't be my husband's trying to be like, you are doing too much.

I'll be like, screw you. Yeah, I'm fine. Or even like my best friends I want, those people to be support, but they can't be the bad guys. And I use that word loosely because it's not being a bad guy, but the truth tellers, let my friends tell me what I need to hear.

Let my external support, tell me what I really need to hear.

Nancy: So who are your truth tellers?

Shannon: My, my therapist who is absolutely amazing. My life coach who's actually now my friend, but we have a different kind of friend relationship obviously founded in this fact. And those are really the two and they, and I have two because they both have very different approaches to things too.

So I feel like if they're both saying this is a flag, then that is serious.

Nancy: Since your spiritual awakening as Brené Brown says, have you had another flare up since the first ?

Shannon: Not, not nearly, what would have gotten me to that place. I think I learned my lesson so hard there that I'll be surprised if I ever go there. I'll catch the workaholic tendencies of, like getting excited about something and wanting to like only focus on that and work on that.

That's never gonna go away, but definitely. Before I can pile it on too heavy. I have the awareness and space to see am I just piling things on because I like the energy of being busy or are these really things that I need to be doing?

Nancy: What are some of your signs, if you, would you be willing to share them?

Shannon: Sure. Mind racing is a big one. Like I can see, like when I'm working on too many things like this, the ping ponging of ideas in my head going all the time. If I wake up with a ton of energy, that's a flag. Because I'm not really a morning person. So if I'm waking up to a normal day, I'll be groggy.

If I like jump out of bed, then that's like a sign. Yeah. Too much is going on

Nancy: So that pattern is addicting.

Shannon: Like it feels good, right? It feels good To wake up with energy in the morning. It feels amazing Yes.

Nancy: I think that fact combined with the fact that slowing down and taking care of ourselves, we've believe is something we have to earn.

I have to work hard enough to earn the break, to earn taking a break. I have to deserve it. I hear that a lot from my clients.

Shannon: I don’t think I have that one. I think I always had been, I feel like if I want to take a break, I can. But the problem for me is when I have a lot of space, like even like good space, it feels like something's missing.

It's that feeling of I must be forgetting something because normally things are so chaotic and I'm bouncing around and I'm like pulled to my capacity that when I actually have space, it's like, What's wrong? And you almost want to, create a problem to put in that space. Yeah. But yeah, I've never felt like I needed to earn rest, but I do sometimes feel like I have to defend it because other people believe that.

Other people believe I work more hours than you do. So why should you? I have to make dinner. And not you, even though it's my night to make dinner. I don't know if this is specific enough of an example of what's going on in my household. Sometimes if it's Wednesday, I'm not making dinner.

And I'm okay. And I think. I have been, I've been working on myself long enough to know like that's other people's stuff, not mine. And so it, it does help me like stay centered in no. And also again I think my burnout and breakdown was so bad that I recognize it's not just better for me.

It's better for everyone. If I can keep this going, it really is because otherwise I'm jumping into traffic and that's not good for anybody. You can make dinner Wednesday night.

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's awesome. Just because I've had clients say to me, I know if I get up and journal and take time in the morning, I feel better, but yeah.

Encouraging themselves to do that, especially if they wake up with the, I have a ton of energy. Yeah. Then you really can't write, then that's not happening.

Shannon: Yeah. And it feels so good. You're like, I don't need to journal. I feel amazing. And then by 11, you're like a zombie, you used up all your energy for that.

Nancy: Exactly. And so it's really, you're able to slow down. Regularly, slow down.

Shannon: I am, but it's not always comfortable. I would say like a lot of times still this part, this far into my journey, it's still uncomfortable sometimes. Like I want to be go, because that feels energizing, but I really know it's not going to be good on that end.

Nancy: Okay. So something that I loved that you talked about was how the striving takes away our creativity. And that's also something that Brene´ Brown talks about

Shannon: because we're basically the same person. (laughing)

Nancy: Tell me more about that.

Shannon: Yeah. I would say like when I'm in strive mode, I'm just like checking things off. I'm just like getting it done. Like I'm very decisive again. Could be good. Could be bad. And so I'm just doing without the space to really like, explore all the options and explore what's interesting about things.

So I think when I slowed down, not just like in a creative Ooh, and then I paint tonight. So creative, like I'm not creative in that way, but I'm definitely able to even just look at problems in situations with different approach. When I have more space, I used to like when I would get like stuck on something, I would think, I just need to like plow through just get it done.

And I would have this message in my mind. Just done is better than perfect and just get through it. And like sometimes that's needed, but most of the time it's the opposite for me of if I'm stuck on something, I need to take space from it. And the more space I can give myself the easier it is to find like the creativity to get through whatever it is.

That's my personal expense. Of, the forcing things through versus letting things.

Nancy: And I love that it's isn't because sometimes I think, Brene´ Brown's message is more about doing creativity. And I think that could be a block to some people.

So I like how you're saying it's expansiveness, it's looking at the ideas. In a bigger way, not just the minutia of the to-do list and check check, check.

Shannon: Which again, feels good. I love a check mark.

But yeah, I'll use like a good, like a tangible exam. I put together a program for our conference, rebel con, and we've picked speakers from all over the country and there's like kind of a format, but like within that format, there's a lot of space for creativity and thinking about the flow of who comes before, who and what types of conversations are important there.

And I had no, my process with that. Every time I try to do it. And there's like this fear of if I don't like, get this done right now, like I'm gonna miss the speakers that I want. Like people are gonna get booked up. And I've all these stories about what I need to just get it done really fast.

But every single time I'm like, Nope, like when I'm not sure, like who I want in this program, I just need to sit back and give myself some space and stop hustling through it because. I will find where those holes need to be filled and they will get filled. And I can say that, because now we're doing it for the sixth time.

So I have like proof that it actually does happen. It is coming regardless. Like somebody's going to be up there to talk like

Nancy: yeah. And I think I know for me, every time I practice that of slowing down and pulling back and stopping the hustle, it's the result is better.

Shannon: I always get the best ideas on vacation.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. But it isn't a logical

Shannon: So why is it so hard to take vacation? ,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It's so true.

Okay. So one of the areas you found that was a key was support.. And that we as women don't think about that intentionally, which I loved, because we don't think about that intentionally. Tell me about how you got to that.

Shannon: This is my soul work right now, which sounds more weird than it is. But so when I started rebel con I knew the project was bigger than I could do it myself. So the first thing I did was I wanted to find cool people to work. And so in doing that, what I didn't realize I was doing is creating this circle of friends.

And I didn't realize that I didn't have friends. And it was so weird because I know tons of people and I could always have someone to invite over for something like I go to coffee dates with people every single day but I didn't realize that I didn't have real adult friends.

And I'm still connected with people from my past, but not in the come over right now, type of friend. And so once I had that, I was like, holy cannoli. People don't have this, which is proof from how quickly I was able to assemble this group of friends, because nobody has friends.

It was just so weird because then as soon as this group forms, like chaos started just happening in everybody's life. And it wasn't that because we were friends, chaos was happening, it was. Chaos was happening. And we had the support of friends, all it just came together at the same time.

So like a friend was getting divorced and then the other was breaking up with her boyfriend and I had to quit a job. And this one's dad got cancer and it's just the normal things that happen in life all the time. But all of the sudden we had this circle of support for one another that I just happened to like accidentally have at this point in my life.

Was great for me, obviously it would have been really great to have this circle when I had my breakdown, but whatever, I'm more grown up person now, I'm probably a better friend now than I would have been because I wouldn't have been available because I'd been working and visiting and not wanting to show up for my friends.

So that was my own personal aha moment of oh my God. People were my friends. And I think that supports me in a way that it's almost like crazy to think it never happened. It's not that I need them every day or even talk to them every day. But it's this feeling of, if something goes terribly wrong, I had six different people that I could potentially call.

For whatever and that's just a feeling that I don't think you realize you don't have until you have. And I think, I have like my mom, who's a couple of hours away that if it's really bad, I can call my mom. I have my mother-in-law like, I have other support in my life.

My therapist, my life coach. I have people to talk to, again, not the same as the person. That's going to drop everything and deliver pizza to your house because she knows you're really stressed and your kids need to eat. That's just a different. Yeah, it's just a different situation. And I live in the city, like I'm not friends with my neighbors.

Like we're not like in a cul-de-sac where everybody's kids play together and everybody knows each other, which I feel like is also really common. Like people move away from their family. People don't have the structural support that we had when everyone belonged to a faith organization. There's just this missing piece of support.

And it affects women. I think more than men because women. One are doing way more work, not to make this feminist thing, but they are not more work both like in labor and in emotional work. And so when you're doing so much emotional work, you need support. Emotionally. And that's like my soapbox story, but I really believe it with my whole heart.

And I think what I have hoped that I can do with my organization. I know I can't create these relationships for people. And I think, apps like Bumble and like other places where you can meet people, I think are great, but I think. You have to meet a lot of people until you find your people.

And that's hard to do as a grownup, especially as a workaholic grownup. Because you don't get time to meet people because you got work to do

So that's, what I, my like super strong feeling about support. I think there is this message that we can all do it alone. We can all do it by ourselves. That our strength is in how much we can carry by ourselves. But everybody knows, if you have more people carrying, you're going to carry multiple, like it's multiples how much you can do.

And also that's a very productive way of looking at the world, right? Like sometimes I just need someone to cry with. And I'd like to be able to pick who that is. And now that I have multiple friends that have one I could pick.

Nancy: Right Yeah.

Shannon: What a gift! Absolutely. Or I can call all of them and make them all listen to me cry, which would be fine.

Or I can just put a crying emoji in the group chat and then have my text messages blow up for a day, which also feels really nice.

Nancy: I see these women you found were all built around.

Shannon: This event I found them by accident, right? It is how it happens.

And so again, that's what, why, we've created rebel. The conference is one thing that we produced, but we also have a community which we have events every month and they're literally, that's who they attract. They attract women that are just looking for connection. They want to be able to talk to someone about something different than just the work.

Or just the role they play in their family. And that's one of our goals is just to create another space for people to find each other.

Nancy: My husband or I belong to a book club

We’ll do a couples thing and the women are like my mom's age, but my husband and I will both say it's so awesome to go there and talk about. Just life, not about our day-to-day life or about, our jobs are about like, they just want to hear about life. Like it's just such a different conversation than.

The ins and outs of every day. And it's just such a different level of support.

Shannon: Yeah, I know. I feel like you get lucky when you find it and you should seek it somehow in whatever way, because it is so valuable. I have two young kids, but I don't want to have a group of moms because that's what moms want to talk about.

Not all moms, but like some moms. And the only thing you have in common with other people is that you have kids, you ended up talking about kids and the same thing, as far as your work the only thing you, if the only thing you have in common is your work with these people. You're going to talk about work, but when you don't have work or family in common with people, you talk about it.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And it is a thing. I think that people want a formula for. How do I find people? Same thing with when, if you're dating, like how do I find, I looked really hard for my husband. (laughing)

One of the pushbacks I always get Is, my clients will be like I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to go to these events. What is your thoughts on that?

Shannon: It's funny. I'm an introvert, but I'm not, afraid to be around people introvert. I'm the, when I'm around people, I need time by myself introvert.

So it's almost hard for me to know if I was like afraid to talk to people, like how would I meet people? But, we have people that are afraid to talk to people that come to our events all the time and they just don't talk to anybody until someone talks to them, which again probably is scary for them.

But I don't know. Sometimes you just have to, you got to do it. It's if I want to really want to meet someone, but I don't like going on dates. It's wow. And I gotta do it then. No, like after you, so for me, like after we have an event, I know that night it's gonna be hard for me to fall asleep because I get like wound up from the energy of a lot of people in extroverted and so I just know, like on those nights, like I'm gonna have to be up later.

So then the next day I need to like, make sure my schedule, I can sleep in later and I come home and I watch dumb Netflix and I eat ramen noodles. And that's like how I like contain this extroverted that I had to do. And knowing what I need to do on the backend to recover from it. I love that.

I mean is not self care, but it is for me. Yeah.

Nancy: That's intentionality, I mean like you, because you have pulled back on your life and you're not just click through everything. You're able to say, okay, I love doing this gathering and it's draining. How can I do, how can I care there?

Yeah, that's good. That's awesome. So what's your, I want to hear also the idea. Did you struggle with support equals weakness? Initially,

Shannon: No, actually I think my problem is I struggle with a huge ego and that I can do everything better than everybody else. And so that's a problem. And I still struggle with that sometimes, but I.

I know, a lot of people do think if I am asking for help, that means something's wrong. I think I did sometimes. I feel like I'm imposing on people by asking. And I come across that a lot when I talk to people about asking for help. Because that's my biggest thing is if you are struggling, ask for help and I recognize it's really hard, but if you ask someone and they say, no that's fine.

I think there's like this fear of I don't want to ask someone that they might say no, and. I think a lot of that is from, I feel bad if I have to say no when someone asks me for help. So I don't want to make someone else feel bad that they have to say no to me. And it's funny because, so I always use my sister-in-law as an example, my sister.

Is amazing, but she's like very, what's the word almost like Bohemian in that she's just like in and out. And sometimes she's really in, and sometimes she's really out and she just you can't nail her down. She's like a nomad lives wherever, like just one of these people. But she moved to Richmond, which is where I live when my second baby was born and was at my house every single day and awesome.

But if I ask her for something, it's like a note. Oh, it's so funny. And she's great at boundaries. Like I'm telling you if I, if like Oprah Winfrey was like, Shannon, come to lunch right now. And I was like, Hey Jess, I know you're just here hanging out. Can you just keep the baby while I run to Oprah's house?

She'd be like, no, I gotta go. And I'm like, all right, like that's just how she is. And I think it's great because it doesn't mean she's not helpful. It just, she's helpful to me in the way that she wants to help me. And I know this is about her. This is our understanding. It is what it is.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It doesn't hurt her feelings. Let it just be what it is. But we have this fear of also if I ask this person. Then, if they ask me, I have to say yes. Also not true. You can say no. And I think that's a harder one to do in practice. People can understand it emotionally and mentally, but it's hard to practice.

Nancy: Because I think we get stuck in that keeping score. Yeah.

Shannon: Yeah. And that's not real friendship and that's not real support. Obviously if you. To reciprocate in some way that may be received well, and the gratitude is appreciated, but it shouldn't feel like I'm doing this for you because I might need something from you.

That's not a good relationship on either side. Yeah.

Nancy: Because I actually thought you were gonna say it and I'm glad you didn't. I thought you were going to say, if someone says no, if you ask someone for help and they say no, then they're showing you who they are. Because a common theme in the self-help industry is then they're showing you the type of person they're.

Shannon: no, I get it may not mean no in the future may just me. No this second for exactly what you're asking me for right now, that doesn't mean you can never ask me for anything ever again. I would hope that you don't have friends like that.

Nancy:

Exactly. Like it isn't that It isn't that cut and dry because you talk about this in a Facebook live that you did. I think it was a couple of years ago about how you were learning, how to set boundaries and you had that the fear of missing out by saying no or hurting someone's feelings and that's a huge one for people.

Shannon: Yeah. And I'll say I still have fear of missing out. I don't think I'll ever get over that. I just like to be involved in stuff. And when people are doing cool stuff without me, I just feel left out. And that's my like, teenager self, just it's never going to get better. Maybe it'll get better, but it's not going to be great.

But I also realize now I don't die. It's fine. If I miss something, there will be something else. Yeah, but the fear of hurting people's feelings like this one, actually, I feel like I've been working on a lot lately. I do want people to like me, like that's the feeling that I have as a human being, but I recognize through lots of therapy.

I am a good person. I do want the best for people. I never would you anything, they would intentionally hurt someone. So if I do hurt someone's feelings, it's not because I want their feelings to be hurt. It's because I did something that I didn't realize what hurt their feelings. And so knowing that about myself makes it that much easier to say no, and know, I might hurt someone's feelings because that's not my area.

My intention is not say no to your feelings. My intention is to say no, because I just can't and, or I don't want to. And those are different things. And I think before therapy and before realizing all the stuff about myself, I thought I was not a good, and the only real way to be a good person is to do good things for other people or do things that make people like me or feel appreciated, or, I thought I had to work too.

Yeah. And now I realize no, I'm good. I'm really confident in my morality. And so if there's negative things that happen because of me, it's not intended. And that is what it is.

Nancy: Oh, I love that.

That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's brilliant. Because the other thing also, I'll often tell to clients is you can say no to someone and they can get upset.

That's fine. And you don't have to change your response. And they're not bad people because they got upset. You're not a bad person. Because you said no, we're all just having feelings around here and that's okay.

Okay. So I'm fascinated to hear more about everything you're doing with rebel con and cool. And the communities.

Shannon: So we started the conference in 2017 and we did a couple of events and then people were like, these events are so awesome. Like we want to connect in between. And that was really the catalyst for the community. So we've only been about a year doing the community chapters. So we've got one enrichment, one in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, one in Maryland in between Baltimore and DC.

And then we just signed on a leader in Philadelphia. You heard it here first.. So that's exciting. And basically the idea was we just want to get these people in a room together again, but everyone's so different and everyone's interested in different things.

Like what do we do with them when they're here? And so we just started putting together programming. That was just the kind of programming that we as a team. Wanting to hear. And so instead of it being like a traditional networking group that you're going with the intention of making a connection for some sort of business purpose we wanted it to be, make some sort of connection for a personal purpose.

Okay. And so our content does like balanced between the professional and personal development, but. We will tell you this as professional development and we'll trick you and then you'll come and then really you'll make friends. But it's not, we're not like shady about it. Obviously I say this on podcasts.

I'm going to trick you with this LinkedIn workshop and you're going to leave with a buddy. So I'll put that in the description. I don't care. But yeah. We have panels. We do workshops and then we've just added some new event formats, like member meetups, just more intimate places that people can connect and meet each other.

And the topics that we pick are what I find so fun. We, our most recent panel here in Richmond was titled the breadwinners. And so it was for women that work in very different industries and different roles, but they are all the primary earner in their household. And so talking about what does that mean?

And like, how do they manage their home finances and who does, what in the house? And, what does that do for their relationship? And do they have kids or don't they, and how does that affect things? And just, I think the kinds of questions that you always want to ask people, but it's like rude to ask them but I would, I'm like dying to know do you have joint bank accounts?

Do you have separate bank accounts? Do you give your husband an allowance? Like how does this work. And so we have those kinds of conversations. Other topics that we've done that were like really well received, we had the quitters, so it was women that had quit different things in their life.

So one was like a job, a business, a marriage listening to their mother, like from the like Pratt, like tangible thing to a bad habit. And that was really fun. And then we do also do like industry based ones. We'll have one coming up, that's women in education. And you don't have to also work in education to attend, but if you're interested in, these people that have this job, that's like totally different from anything that you do, which I am fascinated that people have jobs that are different than mine.

It gives you a behind the scenes view. So it's like, what do they do? And what do they see happening? And. What does the world look like through their perspective? So yeah, so that is what we do. We bring women together to talk about whatever they want to talk about. In different formats, because like you were talking about introverts are different people connect in different ways.

Like some people love to just go here and talk, because then they don't actually have to talk to anybody and they can just be in the room and get the energy. Some people do want to connect, but they don't want to connect when there's 50 people in the room. They'd rather do that. So giving people different and some people like a workshop, because then you're there for a purpose and you're doing something.

So then the connection just was accidental, but you're like learning a skill. And sometimes people don't feel good about investing in like having more friends and like being more fulfilled person, but they will invest in a. Like they said LinkedIn, which is what it, that don't get me wrong. That LinkedIn works.

I was like one of the best workshops I ever went to. And I learned so much, but I learned about LinkedIn. And then I also learned about making connections. So we're still going to trick you. Oh, one of my other favorite events that we did that I think is so fun that we have this woman, she used to work at the Pentagon and she does like a brainstorming strategy technique that she can use with anybody.

And so she came to show us the brainstorming strategy technique, but she was like you have to have a problem that you're trying to solve. And I was like, our problems. How to make friends. And so then as a group, we like learned this technique that you could take back to like work on whatever problem solving you have.

But then also we like brainstorm on like how to make friends and then people left and went to happy hour after.

Nancy: So what about the. Those are the communities.

Shannon: Those are the community events. So the conference, our four themes of program, our wellness money, community creativity. And we picked those four themes because at the time was like right after I came out of my burnout.

And I'm like, if I can get these four things. Solid in my life, then I feel like I have a better chance of getting things back on track. So like wellness first, because you know this, I know this, but it's so hard to remember if you don't take care of yourself, like none of the rest of them matters, like walking down the street, waiting for a card at you.

It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank. Wellness then money because money is important and it matters. And women don't talk about it enough. And so opening up the conversation about it, not necessarily like here's what you should do with your money, but like how we can engage with it in a more intentional way.

Community, because of all of these things that I talk about of how important support is, and having other people that care about you and you caring about them. So important. And then creativity, because there has to be some sort of outlet and right, like I said, I'm not a creative person and that I'm not a painter or whatever, but my version of creativity is different than other people's are.

And. Spreadsheets and like strategy and strategy is absolutely a creative pursuit. And so I think, debunking the, what is creativity really? And how can you be intentional about your creativity, whatever that means for you. That's give those are the four. So those are the four things we talk about and we try to bring people that have an interesting perspective to share.

I am not a big fan of experts. Because I'm like, you don't know me know my life. So I'd rather not have an expert on the stage. Tell me what I should be doing. I'd rather have someone share their experience and what they know about that, what they've learned from that experience versus tell me what to do.

That is the person. And it's really fun and it's most of what we get back, definitely people make comments about the speakers that they are inspired and, discovered someone new that they hadn't heard about and learned interesting things. But most of the feedback is they're just jazz to have been in a room of people that they feel like whether they're strangers or not.

Everyone in that room genuinely wants each other to be successful. And it is, I forget because I literally built that room. And so I live in it all the time, but that's not the room that most people live in. And so that's really, to me, if I get that feedback, that's how I know the event was a success.

So even just for one day, if you could hang out. Everyone wants you to be your best. You like that's worth the price of admission to me. So we do have

Nancy: food, man. That's important

Shannon: and snacks.

Nancy: Yeah. And this takes the conference is in

Shannon: Richmond, Virginia, this spring.

Nancy: Okay. And what's the website

Shannon: for that?

Rebel, R E B E L E con.com.

Nancy: Okay. And we'll also have that in the show notes in case people want to check that out. So I, the thing I love about your story is that you're willing to share it. That's awesome. And, but it wasn't a direct path and it still isn't, because I always am saying, I think for a long time I believed I needed to be an expert in order to do this, to do teach this work.

And I really got better at this work when I finally was like, I'm just doing this and it's a struggle. Every day. And I really try every day and I really try to be intentional. Yeah. That's the best we can ask. And just to witness other people struggles and that we're in this together. And how can we pull out of this?

I think that is that's, it's a gift that you're sharing it. So thank you for taking the time.

Shannon: Oh my gosh. Thank you for letting me and for sharing so many stories.

Nancy: Two things that I would take away. A, it's not easy. And B it's a choice. Like you really have to make the choice to not get sucked into the hop up, to recognize, I need to slow down to challenge myself, to get out of the house and meet new people too.

It's never going to be the great, the perfect time or the feel the best, or you're absolutely going to know for sure. This is the right step. It's always going to be a choice. That's a risk.

Shannon: Yeah. And sometimes it is too hard. And then you just need to wait until it's the next day. Because there's a lot of pressure there too, of like I just don't want to do it and I have to make myself and I'm thinking sometimes not

Nancy: Love that. Thank you for saying that too. Yeah. Because my big thing is it's, it's all about just being calm. To yourself. Like the more you can plow on that kindness, because a lot of people think it's about, I need to accept myself a hundred percent for who I am and I'm like, I can't do that.

I've really struggled to do that, but I can be kind, even before this interview, I was like super nervous. Yeah. And I was like, you're going to get nervous. That's what you do here. We know what we're doing. We got this. We're going to go in and just settling myself down enough to do that. Makes such a big difference.

Shannon: And being nervous as great. It's like Bruce Springsteen said that if he ever doesn't get nervous before a show, he knows he's going to retire. Because it's done. The magic is gone.

Nancy: It's true because you really are working at it. That shows your passions there and you want to do a good job and all that stuff.

And you're doing such great things.

Shannon: So I was a little nervous to, but thank you so much for taking the time to do this and sharing your story And check out Rebel.com and you might be meeting some new friends.

Before we go, I wanted to highlight something Shannon said, which was the power of recognizing your intentions are good. So often I hear from clients that their monger was attacking them for saying no, we're making a mistake and they try to talk down their monger and it just doesn't work.

It will never work to try to talk down your monger or rationalize with her. The only thing that works is strengthening the voice of the biggest fan, which is why I loved what Shannon said so much, because that is the voice of the biggest fan. Your biggest fan will remind you, Hey, you have good intentions.

You just cannot make it to the event you aren't being mean. You aren't being lazy. You're just prioritizing yourself, which is awesome. So often we fall in the trap of believing our monger. She says such terrible things about ourselves practice asking to hear from your biggest fan and reminding yourself at your core, you are a genuinely kind person and even genuinely kind people can't please everyone.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 122: How To Implement A.S.K. When There Aren't Enough Hours In The Day

In today’s episode, I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. when she realizes she doesn’t have enough hours in the day.

For many years I believed that I could fix my High Functioning Anxiety 

I thought that if only I could find the right way to do it, that if I just found the right hack, I could be healed. 

But this isn’t how it works. The truth is that we will never be done with our High Functioning Anxiety.  There isn’t a hack that can fix everything. Yes, we can loosen its grip and live a life without it controlling everything but it takes work. High Functioning Anxiety is an ongoing issue and learning to live with it is a daily process. 

In December we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds – the Monger (inner critic), the BFF (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan (the voice of kindness and wisdom) – and about how when we hear our Monger talking and berating us, or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan. 

All this month we have been talking about how to do that.  In the past 3 episodes, I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the 3 steps: Acknowledge your feelings, Slow Down and get into your body, and Kindly pull back and see the big picture. 

And as I have said before, A.S.K. is more nuanced than just doing these 3 steps.

So today I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. around a common problem that I hear from just about everyone: what do we do about the issue of “not having enough hours in the day.”

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to use the feelings sheet to acknowledge what you are feeling.

• How to practice staying in your body and bringing in your Biggest Fan whenever you get frustrated.

• How to enlist your Biggest Fan into seeing the big picture

• And the rewards of doing the hard work of not allowing your Monger to run the show.

Some of the research and resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 119: Acknowledging your feelings

• Episode 120: Slow down and get into your body

• Episode 121: Kindly pull back and see the big picture

+ Read the Transcript

For many years I believed I could hack my High functioning anxiety. If only I found the RIGHT way to do it, I could be fixed, healed. It is ironic because High Functioning Anxiety keeps us stuck in this loop that if we do everything RIGHT, we can relax, we can earn a break. But that isn’t how life works. We will never EARN a break.

We will never hack our High Functioning Anxiety and be done with it. High Functioning Anxiety is an ongoing issue. Yes, we can loosen its grip, yes we can live a life without it controlling everything, but that takes work.

It is a process.

A daily process.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

In December, we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds the Monger (inner critic), the BFF (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan (the voice of kindness and wisdom) when we hear our Monger talking and berating us or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan.

All this month, we have been talking about HOW to do that. In the past 3 episodes, I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the 3 steps A. Acknowledge your Feelings and the second step S. Slow Down and get into your body.

And the third step – K-Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

As I have said before, A.S.K. is more nuanced than just do these 3 steps, and poof, your anxiety will go away, so today I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. around a common problem that I hear from just about everyone, the issue of ‘not having enough hours in the day.’

We first met Abby back in episode 110

Hi there, I am Abby

Abby is a wife and mom to 2 children, a boy, and a girl, and works full time in a management role.

Abby deals with High Functioning Anxiety, and she has been learning how to implement the A.S.K. method to reduce her anxiety and her constant Monger chatter.

Acknowledge what you are feeling

Slow Down and Get into your body

Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

Let’s see how Abby feels about the amount of time she has to get it all done:

“There are not enough hours in the day! I set my alarm for 5am every morning, so I have a better chance of getting through my list, but my Monger likes to make me up promptly at 3:11, taunting me to use the extra hours to my advantage.”

Let’s follow Abby as she goes through her day and tries to bring her Biggest Fan into the picture more.

As soon as Abby’s alarm goes off, she is off to the races. Treadmill, coffee, shower, pack the lunches, handle carpool and try to get to work before everyone else so she can get more done.

As she sits in the morning rush hour traffic, her Monger starts going:

“Well, this is a great start… my inbox is probably busting at the seams, I’m behind on the big project, and I’ve got to rally the troops for next week’s group presentation… Traffic is the last thing I need today.”

Abby hits her horn in frustration as someone cuts her off.

“We are all sitting in traffic, jerk. You aren’t going to go any faster in my lane!”

Before Abby gets out of her car, she says to herself:

Wow, already starting the day stressed. Let’s practice A.S.K. I feel so silly doing this but let’s give it a try. If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got, right?

She pulls out the feeling sheet she keeps stuffed in her work bag and names 6-10 feelings.

I am feeling insecure, panicky, worthless, unhappy about work, annoyed, frustrated about traffic and the morning so far, and excited about watching my son’s play tonight.

Then, she slows down and starts to get out of her head. She does some stretches as she walks into her office. Finally, she starts to pull back and focus on the bigger picture:

OK, so I have A LOT to do, but I always have a lot to do. I am going to take 10 minutes and plan the day realistically. What can I get done? Do I even know what I can get done? I usually set my expectations so high, and I am always disappointed.

What if today I just focused on noticing where I get caught up and when I start to get off track? I don’t have to beat myself up--I can just be honest about what’s going on.

Abby walks into work feeling energized. As she turns on her computer, she sees 50 new emails.

Oh my God, I am NEVER going to get through these.

Her Monger starts up again:

“HA! So much for your great day of productivity, you can’t take time to PLAN. You have to answer all of these before you can do ANYTHING! What will people think if you don’t reply right away?!?”

Abby immediately shuts her computer, defeated, and walks to make her second pot of coffee.

As she fills her favorite mug with coffee and milk, she feels the warm mug in her hands and says to herself.

OK, not beating myself up today, remember? Noticing. Email is a snag—a big one.

It’s just so hard to feel this overwhelmed all the time! There has GOT to be a better way to do this than constantly feeling like I am behind. I’m going to put the emails aside for a few minutes and plan out my day.

It’s true: the emails can wait. Abby makes her plan and still has 15 minutes before the office starts bustling.

Perfect! I will triage these emails and set my priorities before everyone gets here.

By the time the office gets bustling...Abby has her head down, priorities set and is working her way through her emails.

An hour later, having finished the triage and feeling briefly on top of things. Abby gets called into an unexpected meeting:

Ok, so this meeting is NOT on my priority list... and it’s probably going to be a major waste of time, but I’m going to commit to showing up, being present, and making the most of it.

Abby decides she will practice staying in her body and bringing in her biggest fan whenever she gets frustrated.

As the meeting drones on, Abby continually brings herself back to her body. Noticing her feet on the floor. As her anxiety increase with each passing minute, she hears her biggest fan say to her:

“This is where we need to be right now. It is frustrating that our to-do list is a mile long, and this is where we need to be.”

Finally, Abby is free of the meeting. Her boss grabs her on her way out to ask her about the special project he had assigned her.

Yep, still working on it and will have something on your desk by the end of the week!

Abby says with a smile.

Oh lord--why did I say that?

How the hell am I going to make that happen!?! I guess I will be working late this week!!

Abby makes her way back to her office and immediately goes to her email. She is making her way through the 25 new messages that came in during the meeting and then remembers.

Oh right, I am working on priorities, not just email today!!

She shuts down her email and starts working on priority #1, the special project for her boss. She opens the spreadsheet, sets the timer on her phone for 30 minutes, and starts working.

After 10 minutes, she finds herself once again in her inbox.

What am I doing? Nothing important here! Why am I wasting time in my inbox?

Rather than beating herself up, she gets curious.

Ok, what am I feeling? I am feeling panicky, uncomfortable, and worthless. This project is completely out of my wheelhouse. Why did he assign this to me!?! I just know he is going to fire me!

She can feel her thoughts racing again, so she consciously calls in her Biggest Fan.

This is something totally new for everyone--and you’re the go-to for figuring this stuff out. It’s completely understandable that you’re feeling panicky. And sure, you are behind the deadline and feeling stuck… but we can get back on track. Where are you getting stuck specifically? Is there anyone you can talk to about it?

Abby realizes that it’s the numbers that are freaking her out, which makes her immediately think of her colleague, Scott. Scott loves numbers--so she offers to take him to lunch so he can help her sort it out.

At lunch, after Scott and Abby talk through the project, they spend the rest of the time ripping on their boss. Making fun of him, laughing and comparing stories on what an idiot he is. As Abby walks back into her office, she feels bad. She realizes her BFF was running the show the whole lunch.

Man, my BFF used to run the show all the time!! Whenever I would get stressed, my BFF would step in to blame someone else. I am so glad that isn’t my norm, but she does raise her ugly head from time to time.

Before she starts her work, Abby calls in her Biggest Fan.

Let me acknowledge what I am feeling: Guilty and embarrassed for talking about my boss all lunch. But also pleased that I asked for help and relieved that I know what I am doing.

Abby stands up to do a quick wiggle to shake off the guilt and embarrassment, and her Biggest Fan says,

Ok, girl, you have the answers from Scott--that’s enough to get you started. No email. No distractions, let’s get to work. You got this!!

And she sets the timer for 30 minutes.

Abby makes some major headway and gets up and walks around the office, and fills up her water bottle.

She has 15 mins until her next mtg, so she triages her email until she has to leave.

Abby handles the rest of her day, attending meetings, returning to her desk, getting into her body, setting her timer, and accomplishing her work.

At the end of the day, Abby does a quick review of the day. What went well? What didn’t go well? And what can she do differently tomorrow?

She sets her priorities and packs up to head home and make dinner before her son’s play tonight!

He is going to be amazing! I can’t wait to watch him.

As Abby sits in the bustling auditorium waiting for the play to start, she reflexively reaches in her purse to pull out her phone and check her work email.

Her Biggest Fan chimes in:

Ok, sweetpea, put the phone down. Look around. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? What do you smell?

She looks around the auditorium, gets in her body, and relaxes enough to enjoy the show.

The email will be there tomorrow.

Later that night, as Abby crawls into bed, her Monger starts chiming in:

“YOU have so much to get done tomorrow!!! What are you going to do?! You will NEVER finish everything.”

Abby allows herself to feel the agitation and insecurity, and she stretches her arms up above her head, and then she calmly says to herself.

Worrying about it isn’t going to help. I have a plan. I have my priorities set, and I am figuring out how I work best. I WILL get it done. I CAN finish this project, and I know who to ask for help if I get stuck. I can see now that my expectations for what I can accomplish between emails and meetings are overblown. I am going to need to keep working on those expectations. That is going to be a daily practice!!!

Ok, so I want to comment about Abby’s day. You might be thinking all these mental gymnastics sounds exhausting!!! I hear you, Nancy but no way am I doing all of this WORK. Trust me, I hear you. Yes, it is work. It is a process of trial and error of catching yourself and regrouping. And it does get easier over time. The cycles get shorter, and you can catch your Monger or your BFF talking much faster. But here’s the thing, not doing the work, allowing your Monger to run the show is also exhausting. Feeling like you are constantly behind and beating yourself up for it all day long ad nauseum is also exhausting. Feeling disconnected from those closest to you, trapped in your head, and constantly hustling is also exhausting. It is a choice some days, we hit out of the park, we are grounded, present, and able to call in our Biggest Fan, and some days we are living in Mongerville and unable to recognize that we are constantly shaming and belittling ourselves. So yes, this is work, and yes, it is so worth it.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 121: The 3 Steps of A.S.K.: Kindly Pulling Back

In today’s episode, we continue our discussion of A.S.K. with the third step of the system: Kindly Pull Back to See the Big Picture

No matter how hard we try to keep up the veneer of perfection, every now and then we make a mistake. 

Mistakes happen and when they do, we can be absolutely horrible to ourselves–telling ourselves things like: I'm such a failure, I deserve to be fired, I am a terrible parent. 

Sometimes we can even rationalize our way back to knowing that it was a small mistake that truly doesn't matter in the long run. 

But then there are the times when we really mess up. When we legitimately make a mistake in a way that really matters. We go against our values, we drop the ball, we let down our spouse. 

What happens when we really mess up and can't just rationalize our way out of it? When our inner voice isn't making a mountain out of a molehill? When our inner voice is taking an actual mountain and adding a shame blizzard of epic proportions?

How do we ever get past this? What's next? 

This episode is about the big mistakes. It's about the concrete steps you can take to move through those situations. Calm your anxiety and feel better. 

Today, we're finishing up this three-part series on the A.S.K. method for dealing with your High Functioning Anxiety by examining the third step: kindly pull back and see the big picture. I talk about those real mess-ups, the missed deadlines, the times we scream at our kids or embarrass our husband in front of his boss. The times we really mess up.

Can kindness really pull us out of that? 

Yes, it can. 

If you haven’t already, take the time to go back and listen to the first two episodes in this series: Acknowledging Your Feelings and Slow Down and Get Into Your Body.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What to do when we legitimately make a mistake in a way that really matters

• How no amount of beating yourself up, shaming yourself, or telling yourself how much you suck is going to make those mistakes any better

• How kindly pulling back to see the big picture allows you to call in the voice of the Biggest Fan and hear from that kind voice of internal wisdom

• How to lean on the 3 traits of the Biggest Fan – Kindness, Forgiveness, and Curiosity

Some of the research and resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 110: The Voices In Your Head – The Monger

• Episode 111: The Voices In Your Head – The BFF

• Episode 112: The Voices In Your Head – The Biggest Fan

+ Read the Transcript

Every now and then, we make a mistake.

Yes, no matter how hard we try to keep up the veneer of perfection, mistakes happen.

And when they do, we can be absolutely horrible to ourselves.

“I’m such a failure.”

“I deserve to be fired.”

“I’m a terrible parent.”

Sometimes, we catch ourselves. We realize that we’re overreacting. We can even rationalize our way back to knowing that it was a small mistake that truly doesn’t matter in the long run.

And then there are times when we really mess up. We legitimately make a mistake in a way that really matters.

We go against our values, we drop the ball, we let down our spouse.

Our inner voice isn’t making a mountain out of a molehill.

Our inner voice is taking an actual mountain and adding a shame blizzard of epic proportions.

What next? How do you ever get past that?

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

This episode isn’t about the small mistakes and the way we talk to ourselves in those situations.

This episode is about the big mistakes. It’s about the concrete steps you can take to move through those situations, calm your anxiety, and feel better.

Let’s get back to your inner voice. I call the inner voice that likes to remind you how horrible you are and what a big failure you’ve become, the Monger.

Frequently when I talk about the Monger, I use an example of something that doesn’t REALLY matter but does matter to our Monger. Something like forgetting someone’s birthday or calling someone by the wrong name. But what happens when we REALLY mess up when we can’t just rationalize our way out of it.

Today, we’re finishing up this 3-part series on the A.S.K. Method for dealing with your high-functioning anxiety by examining the 3rd step: Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

I want to talk about those real mess-ups, the missed deadlines, the times we scream at our kids or embarrass our husband in front of his boss. The times we REALLY mess up. Can kindness really pull us out of that? You might be surprised to hear me say yes. Yes, it can.

In December, we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds the Monger (inner critic), the BFF (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan (the voice of kindness and wisdom) when we hear our Monger talking and berating us or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan. All this month, we will be talking about HOW to do that. We will be diving deeper into my 3 step A.S.K. system for calling in the Biggest Fan.

In the past 2 episodes, I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the first step A. Acknowledge your Feelings and the second step S. Slow Down and get into your body.

, if you missed it, please go back and give it a listen. This week we are talking about the third step – K-Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

When we are performing from a place of anxiety, or when our Monger is beating us up for doing it wrong, our world view shrinks down to tunnel vision. It is almost as if someone puts blinders on us, and we have tunnel vision. When we are operating from that tunnel vision, we look externally for answers, we tell ourselves if we accomplish more or do it better, we will feel better. So here is a common example of this phenomenon:

You are behind at work. Your team missed a deadline, and the next deadline is looming ahead. Your Monger keeps reminding you that you are going to get fired, and your boss thinks you are slow. So you decide you need to become a better manager. You spend time researching a bunch of podcasts that you think will help, and on your way home from work, you call your best friend and your sister to vent your frustration and see if they have any help. They detail their systems and offer more resources for you to get more done. Sounds helpful, right? Obviously, you NEED a better time management system and tips on being a better manager. And it does help for a moment. By the time you get home, your Monger is quieter, and you go through the evening tasks with plans to dive into these resources before bed. And then it hits you, wait a minute. I don’t have time to read or listen to all these resources, I have stuff I have to do and deadlines to meet, and your Monger goes crazy, slamming you yet again for piling on and heading down the wrong path. At this point, you have a choice, you can call another friend and get more input (which I have certainly done), or you can slow down and check-in with yourself to figure out how best to solve this problem (aka call in your biggest fan)

I hear this example all the time; Hell, I have lived this example numerous times. Because people with HFA learned early on, we can’t be trusted. We have to find the answer outside of ourselves, we are losers, and everyone else knows better than us. That is why A.S.K. is so powerful. The process of A.S.K. reconnects us with ourselves. It forces us to acknowledge what is going on internally. To allow our feelings, get out of our heads and see a bigger picture where our Monger isn’t running the show our Biggest Fan is.

One of the keys to decreasing HFA is building loyalty with yourself, trusting yourself, and connecting with yourself rather than always looking outside of yourself for the “better” answer. A.S.K. is the jumping-off point to build that self-loyalty.

This is where the first 2 steps come in Acknowledge what you are feeling and Slow Down and get into your body are both designed for you to look internally and honor what is going on in your own body and mind. And then the last step, Kindly Pull Back to See the Big Picture, allows you to call in the voice of the Biggest Fan and hear from that kind voice of internal wisdom.

This last step is where the Biggest Fan shows her kindness and wisdom. So what does this look like, you might be wondering? Here are some signs:

1. Our Biggest Fan doesn’t use shame and belittling when looking at options. There is no “should” or “other people do it” in her vocabulary.

2. She always has our best interests at heart. She is kind, not judgmental, and she doesn’t lead us down a path that will hurt us eventually (like our BFF might).

In episode 112, I talk more about the Biggest Fan and what I mean when I talk about her.

So what does it mean to Kindly pull back and see the big picture?

I like to think of it as seeing in color, Our Monger forces us to look at the world in black and white, where there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. This is why we are so attracted to the idea of finding the right way. Yes, our Monger has consistently told us the lie that there is a right way. And when we get too overwhelmed with beating ourselves up, we ping pong over to the voice of the BFF, who gives us a much-needed rest but also throws in a bit of self-sabotage. So when your Monger tells you, of course, you are going to get fired for missing all these deadlines, your BFF jumps in with a screw it, let’s just take a long lunch. And so you take a long lunch with a co-worker, spending much of the lunch talking smack about one of your employees and blaming her for all the delays and missed deadline. By the time you get back from lunch, you are further behind, feeling like a bad manager for talking smack and hammered even harder from your Monger.

Neither of these voices have your best interest at heart. Your Monger is looking externally at what needs to be done, and your BFF always looking to give you a break and, in that spirit, also a little sabotage. Both your Monger and BFF live in black and white. Luckily, our Biggest Fan sees the other colors and lives in the middle world where happier, stress-free options are available.

So let’s look at the 3 traits of the Biggest Fan

The first trait is Kindness:

Now I know this sounds obvious because the step is Kindly pull back to see the big picture. But this kindness piece is the key. Talking with kindness to yourself is probably not your go-to response. So what does that even look like? One of the ways I have found to do this is by paying attention to my physical positioning. When we are in the throws of our Monger and in that go-go-go mentality, our energy is focused outward. We are keyed up, our posture is pushed forward, our shoulders are tight, we walk faster, we clench our jaw and our fists our energy is elevated. When we are being kind to ourselves, our energy becomes softer. Our shoulders fall, our jaw unclenches, we immediately feel seen and heard and can take a big exhale.

Kindness looks like,

“I know this is hard.”

“It sucks to be this overwhelmed.”

“Feeling out of control is the WORST.”

“Missing a deadline is just so annoying.”

“Disappointing your husband is so embarrassing.”

“We can fix this.”

Kindness isn’t immediately about solving the problem it is just about saying, “Hey, I see you over there doing the best you can with what you have. I see you making mistakes, being disappointed in yourself, and that sucks.”

It feels foreign. It feels strange. And once you get in the practice of it, it is a game-changer.

The 2nd trait is Forgiveness.

We mistakenly have the belief that if we give ourselves forgiveness, we are giving ourselves slack. This is the big mindset difference of the biggest fan. We have lived far too long with either the voice of our Monger who offers us shame and belittling, slowly tearing apart and dissecting each and every mistake with the intent that by doing this, we won’t make the same mistake again. But in reality, all this shaming and belittling does is make us feel defeated. So we jump to our BFF. In order to help us feel better after the belittling of our Monger, our BFF offers us justification, and frequently she can come up with someone else to blame. Which again is not helpful.

Our Biggest Fan offers us forgiveness she recognizes that we are HUMAN and humans make mistakes. When we can give ourselves forgiveness for making a mistake, we can move past the mistake itself and figure out where to make changes next time and how to learn and grow.

Now before you think forgiveness just happens in a poof, all is forgiven way (especially when we are talking about one of these bigger mess-ups), I want to remind you of the story of the broken plate. You go to someone’s house, and you accidentally break a plate, you apologize, you pick up the pieces, you might even be able to glue it back together, but the plate is still broken. The mistake lives on.

You might be thinking, ouch, that is a Monger story for sure. If I mess up, I can never make it right, and I will live forever to beat myself up.

But your Biggest Fan sees that story differently. You messed up; you broke a plate, that sucks because it was an accident. You apologize to your friend, you hug her as she cries because it turns out it was her grandmother’s plate. But you cannot repair it completely. AND beating yourself up about it does nothing IT IS STILL a broken plate. No matter how much you apologize or fix it. But what does help? Kindness. Understanding. Showing up and admitting your mistakes.

Here is the lesson, we have to forgive ourselves. If we don’t forgive ourselves, we can’t be there for people we hurt. We can’t show up to do it differently because we are so wrapped up in beating ourselves up.

The 3rd trait is Curiosity.

After we forgive ourselves for being human and making a mistake, we need to be curious. The Biggest Fan is always encouraging you to be curious. She sees everything as an experiment. There is no judgment. Right and wrong don’t exist. Every situation offers a chance to provide more wisdom.

Curiosity is a key part of K. Kindly pull back to see the big picture. Too often, our Monger steps in and uses curiosity as a way to be judgmental.

The question isn’t “Why did this happen?” (which leads to more judgment and shame), it’s “What could I do differently? How can I improve the outcome?

Asking these questions allows you to come up with new ideas and options.

As I have said before, one of the ways to recognize your Monger is she talks in absolutes, she puts those blinders on so that you have tunnel vision. A powerful way around that is to use the word And.

And allows you to take two opposing ideas and make them one thought.

I want to work out, and right now, I am tired. Both are true.

I want to eat an ice cream sundae, and I know ice cream upsets my stomach. Both are true.

I feel like a terrible manager since I missed the deadline, AND sometimes I mess up and drop the ball.

So going back to your unproductive morning at work and your long lunch where your BFF and Monger are arguing. You want to Kindly pull back to see the Big picture, you can say to yourself ok, maybe the long lunch wasn’t the best idea, and honestly, getting to work early on a Monday is a bit unrealistic (forgiveness). Regrouping, what do I need to get done today to feel good about the day. You decide on 2 different to-dos on your list. And you are going to use the rest of the day as an experiment to see how long it takes you to REALLY complete a task vs. how long your Monger thinks it will take you (curiosity). You shut your door and set the timer for 30 minutes, shut off your music (because yes, you love listening to it, but it is distracting, turn off your email notifications and buckle down. When your timer goes off, you stand up and take a walk around the office and reflect on how it is going (Kindness). You realize maybe your expectations are out of whack. Maybe when you are setting deadlines, you are setting your expectations too high. You decide you need to meet with your team and re-visit the deadlines you have for the future. By the end of the day, you leave feeling accomplished and far less shame-filled.

Here’s the truth that is so hard to hold on to. You are human. You make mistakes. No amount of beating yourself up, shaming yourself, or telling yourself how much you suck is going to make those mistakes (yes, even the big ones) any better. The ONLY thing that helps is being kind, forgiving yourself, and having curiosity.

So the next time you hear your Monger chatting, practice A.S.K.

A. Acknowledge what you are feeling

B. Slow Down and Get into your body

C. Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 120: The 3 Steps of A.S.K.: Slow Down And Get Into Your Body

In today’s episode, we continue our discussion of A.S.K. with the second step of the system: Slow Down and Get Into Your Body. 

To deal with the Monger, you have to get out of your head and get into your body. 

Most of us live predominantly in our heads. We literally aren’t even aware that we have a body unless it starts to hurt, and then we just take a pill to make it better. Our Monger takes up a lot of space in our heads, so the more time we spend in our heads, the more we stay out of our body and the louder our Monger gets.

Last week I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the first step: Acknowledge your Feelings. If you missed it please go back and give it a listen. 

This week we are talking about the second step: Slow Down and get into your body. 

When we hear our Monger talking and berating us or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan. 

One key to channeling your Biggest Fan is getting into your body. When we can slow down and get into our bodies, we change our perspective. By changing our physical presence, we can see more options and the last step – Kindly pull back to see the big picture – can happen with greater ease.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How accomplishment and drive can take up the same space as slowing down and intentional living

• How to create a practical meditation practice that will actually work for you even if you’re not a “super meditator”

• What the research has to say about slowing down and the mind-body connection

• And some tips for practicing the Slow Down and getting into your body when it is the last thing you want to do

Research and resources mentioned:

• Mind–Body Research Moves Towards the Mainstream – Vicki Brower

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 110: The Voices In Your Head – The Monger

• Episode 111: The Voices In Your Head – The BFF

• Episode 112: The Voices In Your Head – The Biggest Fan

+ Read the Transcript

He lovingly grabbed my shoulders and said, “Honey, I think you need to take a deep breath.”

What?!? I thought to myself, resisting the urge to punch my husband in the face. Take a deep breath! That is the LAST thing I want to do.

This was a common scenario in our house, me coming downstairs to share my stress and anxiety and my husband trying his hardest to help by reminding me to take a deep breath.

He didn’t mean to anger me to the point of violence (ha!). He meant it as a kind, loving activity that he knows works in decreasing anxiety, but for me, taking a deep breath when I am that anxious is torture.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

It’s not just deep breathing.

Any attempt to reconcile the idea that I need to slow down with my desire to push push push and accomplish as much as possible has always been a challenge, and I am sure will continue to be. The idea of sitting down to meditate for any considerable length of time makes me want to jump out of my skin. But I have found a way around it, a way to get into my body and take a break from the never-ending chatter of my Monger.

In December, we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds the Monger (inner critic), the BFF (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan(the voice of kindness and wisdom) when we hear our Monger talking and berating us or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan. All this month, we will be talking about HOW to do that. We will be diving deeper into my 3 step A.S.K. system for calling in the Biggest Fan.

Last week I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the first step A. Acknowledge your Feelings. If you missed it, please go back and give it a listen. This week we are talking about the second step – the S. Step, Slow Down and get into your body.

Okay, here’s the truth. To deal with the Monger, you have to get out of your head and get into your body. Most of us live mostly in our heads. We literally aren’t even aware that we have a body unless it starts to hurt, and then we just take a pill to make it better. Our Monger takes up a lot of space in our heads. So the more time we spend in our head, the more we stay out of our Body and the louder our Monger gets.

One key to channeling your Biggest Fan is getting into your body. When we can slow down and get into our bodies, we change our perspective. By changing our physical presence, we can see more options, and the last step, K. Kindly pull back to see the big picture, happens with more ease.

When I share this step with my clients, their eyes glaze over, and I can almost hear them internally saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah, get into your body. It is a similar reaction to the idea of feeling your feelings. Helpful but the LAST thing you want to do. Thanks to more and more research being done on the mind-body connection, we have heard so many times that we need to slow down and get into our bodies that we don’t even hear it anymore. And I know that when you are in go-go-go mode, checking off the to-do list and running from activity to activity, the last thing you want to do is get into your Body. Trust me. I get it.

I fought for years the idea of getting out of my head and into my body. Whenever you hear the words “get into your body,” the next word you often hear is “meditate.” Meditation is awesome if you are able to meditate and/or have a regular meditation practice. Rock on. You can use that practice with the second step of A.S.K., S. Slow down and get into your body.

A meditation practice is amazing, and meditation is not for everyone. Honestly, I couldn’t meditate for five minutes even if you held a gun to my head! For way too many years, I beat myself up for the fact that I couldn’t meditate. My Monger convinced me that there was only one way to get into your body, and it was through meditation. So if I couldn’t meditate, I would never be able to slow down and be present. (See how wily the Monger can be?!)

Finally, I accepted that I was not going to be a super meditator (or even an average meditator), and I tried to find a way to hack it. To create a meditation practice that would work for me. No, I don’t do 30 minutes of meditation a day or even five minutes, more like 10 seconds. I realized that even if I just touched my toes or wiggled my Body for a few seconds and took some deep breaths while doing it, I was able to shift out of the headspace of the Monger.

Mindfulness Hacks are simple and quick ways to slow down and get into our bodies. They work in two ways: Action and Prevention.

Action: This is the S. part of A.S.K. When you notice your Monger chatting or one of the behaviors that indicate your Monger is running the show, practice a 10-second Mindfulness Hack. This allows you to get out of your head and into your body and to channel your Biggest Fan. One of my favorite practices for this one is to literally wiggle my body because it makes me laugh and also because it changes my perspective and reminds me to literally give myself some wiggle room. But it doesn’t have to be that dramatic. I encourage clients to choose several go-to Mindfulness Hacks such as taking three deep breaths, feeling your feet on the floor, touching your thumb to your fingers, doing a neck roll, or stretching.

Prevention: You can also use Mindfulness Hacks to cultivate more awareness of your Monger. Randomly throughout the day, do a quick movement that puts you in your Body: touch your toes, look up and notice the clouds, or take three deep breaths at a stoplight. Frequently I will set an alarm on my phone to remind me to take a break. These Mindfulness Hacks help break the endless chatter of your mind (aka your Monger) and allow you to spend some time in your body (and with your Biggest Fan). Your Monger tends to lull you into a trance of being critical and shaming. Because these Mindfulness Hacks pull you out of your mind and change your physical state, you can start to break that trance and notice your Monger chatting. The more you can break the Monger trance, the less power your Monger will have.

The other thing is it took me a very long time to reconcile that accomplishment and drive could take up the same space as slowing down and intentional living. One of the issues with High Functioning Anxiety is that slowing down is HARD. To slow down requires us to work against our anxiety and our drive and our push push push mentality. (This pull is so strong I wanted to punch my husband, who I adore!) I realized that it took some big-time TRUST on my part to actually slow down. The issue isn’t that we don’t know HOW to slow down. The issue is that we don’t WANT to slow down because we don’t trust that slowing down is a good thing.

Here is a great example: You’ve heard that slowing down is good for you, and you agree wholeheartedly. You want to slow down; you decide to attend a yoga class or do a 5-minute meditation every morning. And (here’s the part few people talk about) at first slowing down is PAINFUL. It causes us to be more aware (uh-oh!), feel more (blech!) and gives space for that nasty voice in our heads to tell us how lazy and slow we are (hello Monger!). And then, after our painful morning experience with slowing down, we meet a friend for lunch who is all about sharing everything she is accomplishing, how early she is getting up, and how she is killing it on a daily basis (all hail the to-do list!). And your BFF jumps in to say, screw this slowing down thing, let’s just keep pushing.

Slowing down is like working out. That first workout after months or years of not working out can cause us to be incredibly sore, so to the act of slowing down. Except society usually supports our idea of working out, and society DOES NOT support the idea of slowing down and especially the idea that slowing down can increase productivity (that’s crazy!!)

So yes, slowing down will initially be painful. AND then after a few days, weeks, months, it gets less painful. Those thoughts and feelings aren’t so scary, and you realize that being intentional and aware opens up your life in a way your to-do list can’t touch.

Here are my tips for Practicing the Slow Down and Get into your Body when it is the LAST thing you want to do.

Tip #1 Start Small.

A 5-minute meditation is a LONG time to be silent when you haven’t done it before. Some of us are hard-wired to go go go, so slowing down is the LAST thing we want to do. I have added slowing down to my life by practicing mini rituals throughout the day.

Start where you are:

Being in the shower when you are in the shower, notice how hard this is to do.

Take 3 Deep Breathes at the stoplight.

Pick a task and hyper-focus on it. Go through your senses as you complete the task. e.g., cutting vegetables for dinner, cleaning dishes, writing an email.

Do anything slower. Drive slower, eat slower, walk slower.

Do a full-body movement: Wiggle your Body.

Dance to your favorite song

Touch your toes

Reach for the sky

Roll your neck

Tip #2 Visualize your thoughts and feelings on a conveyor belt.

Visualize a conveyor belt running above your head with packages. Each package is a thought. Ranging from what we are going to have for dinner to I shouldn’t have spoken up at the meeting. That conveyor belt is constantly moving with thought after thought afterthought. When we are still, we can notice those thoughts moving quickly and randomly down the conveyor belt. Occasionally we will pick up a thought package off the conveyor belt and obsess over it. The thought of ‘I shouldn’t have spoken up at the meeting becomes what were you thinking! You are such an idiot! They were all staring at you like you were speaking Greek! When I notice myself obsessing over a thought, I take my hands as if I am holding a package and lift the package up on the conveyor belt that is above my head. This is a reminder to me that I have a choice, I can CHOOSE to obsess over a thought and beat myself up, or I can put that thought up on the conveyor belt and let it roll on by. Yes, most likely, the thought will come back, and you just rinse and repeat. Lifting that thought back up and saying, nope, not right now. This visual helps us to remember that we don’t have to be consumed by our thoughts. We can take them or leave them. Our thoughts and feelings are separate from us.

Tip #3 “Stay in Your Own Car.”

You have heard me talk about this analogy before, but it is one of my favorites. As we start to loosen up our go go go mentality, we start comparing ourselves to others. Yes, your friend might be accomplishing a ton in her life. Yes, your co-worker might be able to function on 5 hours of sleep. Yes, your neighbor appears to work full time, raise 3 amazing kids and keep her yard pristine. Good for them. But as your Mom told you, YOU are not your friend.

You can only take care of you. Don’t worry about how much other people are accomplishing or how driven they are. Comparing ourselves to others is 100% Monger activity. You are you. Stay. In. Your. Own Car.

Tip #4 There is No Right Way.

The point of slowing down is to create ways for you to get out of the hustle, notice your Monger chatting and be more engaged in your life. Slowing down by its very nature will make your Monger more chatty, and she will have a lot of tips for how you SHOULD be doing it. Remind yourself repeatedly that there is no right way. One day you might be great at slowing down, the next day, you might forget completely. That is ok. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It is a practice and a process.

Tip #5 Keep Practicing

When I first started intentionally slowing down, I had to keep bringing myself back over and over and over ( I still haven’t made it through a shower without getting lost in my head, but when I started, I couldn’t make it through the shampoo portion of my shower). It doesn’t matter how many times you have to remind yourself to ‘slow down’ just keep practicing.

Slowing down and getting into your body is a key step because it changes our physical perspective. We are so often in go-go-go mode, where our Monger chats unchecked. Pulling ourselves out of that mode to slow down and get into our body is challenging, which is why the Mindfulness Hacks work so well. Pick a few of your favorites and put them on sticky notes around your house, or set an alarm on your phone to remind you to practice one of them. When you do the S. Slow down and get into your body step, you can literally shut out the continual blah blah blah of the Monger as you concentrate on what is going on in your body. Which then allows the next step, K. Kindly pull back to see the big picture, to flow that much easier.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 119: The 3 Steps of A.S.K.: Acknowledging Your Feelings

Much of the time when you are feeling anxiety it is tied to feelings you don’t want to feel. In today’s episode, we start our discussion of A.S.K. with the first step of the system: Acknowledge Your Feelings. 

Today, we are starting our month-long discussion of A.S.K. with the first step of the system: Acknowledge Your Feelings. 

But first, I have a confession: I dislike 3 step self-help systems. 

Not because they don’t work but because they overly simplify very nuanced and individualized processes. 

This can be challenging for people with High Functioning Anxiety. We love rules. We love a guide–a simple system that we can follow to the exact letter, making everything feel better. 

A.S.K.–my very own 3-step system for reducing your anxiety–appears to do that. It seems to offer a simple solution to our struggles with anxiety.

But, as you will hear this month, there is complexity below the surface of this seemly simple solution. 

This is why I encourage you to think of the system of A.S.K. as the bare minimum–the basic foundation, from which you can jump off to make this process your own. 

After 2 years of teaching these concepts, I wanted to revisit them and expand on what I talked about previously, adding in some fresh tips. Once you have listened to this episode, you can revisit where I have talked about these 3 steps in previous episodes (episodes 72, 73 and 74), 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• A basic overview of the 3 steps of A.S.K.

  • Acknowledge what you are feeling

  • Slow down and get into your body

  • Kindly pull back to see the big picture

• Some scenarios of the practice of acknowledging your feelings in action

• What role self-loyalty plays when acknowledging your feelings

• What it looks like when people with High Functioning Anxiety avoid feeling their feelings (are you a brooder of bottler?)

• How owning your feelings after years of avoidance and pushing them down takes time

Research and resources mentioned:

• Emotional Agility by Dr. Susan David

• My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist’s Personal Journey by Jill Bolte Taylor

• Putting Feelings Into Words

• Additional studies

• The Feelings List PDF

+ Read the Transcript

"Feel your feelings. What does that even mean?!"

That was the feedback I got from the guy who groaned as I explained the first step of my system for reducing stress and anxiety during a recent talk I gave.

Feel your feelings. Yeah, I'll admit it: that's a hard one to parse.

For the record, the first step of the process is actually to acknowledge your feelings, but even that is a tough one.

I'm just as tired of being told to "feel my feelings" as the groan guy. Honestly, there was a time when all I wanted was to be able to get through life without my feelings.

Feelings gum up the works. They get in the way. Feelings take nice, solid objective things and turn them into squishy, mushy things--am I right?

And that's exactly why I got into therapy in the first place.

"You're listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith."

I joke that the reason I decided to become a therapist was so I could figure out my feelings and be able to justify them away, and then I would never have to deal with them at all. That strategy did not work for me, which is why I am here today talking about feelings.

But it isn't about 'feeling your feelings' because the groaning guy was right. What does that even mean?!? It is a phrase that has been beaten to death and over-used with no meaning. So in this episode, I am going to share what I would say to all those people who would audibly groan if I said, it all starts with Acknowledging your Feelings.

In December, we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds the Monger (inner critic), the B.F.F. (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan (the voice of kindness and wisdom) when we hear our Monger talking and berating us or our B.F.F. judging other people or sabotaging us. The goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan. All this month, we will be talking about HOW to do that. We will be diving deeper into my 3 step A.S.K. system for calling in the Biggest Fan.

I talked about these three steps in previous episodes, episode 72, 73, and 74, But now, after teaching these concepts for 2 years, I wanted to expand on what I talked about previously and add in some new tips.

First, I have a confession, I dislike 3 step systems. Not because they don't work but because they simplify a very nuanced, individualized process. The challenge is people with High Functioning Anxiety love rules and a guide they can follow exactly to the letter and feel better.

And A.S.K.--my very own 3-step system for reducing your anxiety--appears to do that when in fact, it requires a bit more complexity than it appears on the surface. In fact, for years, I avoided making a system for this very reason, I didn't want to simplify a complex process. So think of A.S.K. as the bare minimum, the basic foundation from which you can jump off of to make this process your own.

Let me define what A.S.K. means.

The A.S.K. system is 1) acknowledge what you're feeling, 2) slow down and get into your body, and 3) kindly pull back to see the big picture.

Let's look at A.S.K. a little deeper.

Acknowledge what you are feeling: When your Monger tries to shame and belittle you, your Biggest Fan acknowledges what you are feeling (e.g., you must be tired, scared, angry, sad, etc.).

Slow down and get into your body: When your Monger tries to speed you up and make everything more intense, your Biggest Fan tries to slow everything down, encouraging you to take a break, pause, breathe, etc.

Kindly pull back to see the big picture: When your Monger just sees doom and gloom and engages in black-and-white thinking, your Biggest Fan sees lots of color. She encourages you to think of different solutions, brainstorm, and see the other colors. Most importantly, your Biggest Fan is kind. We tend to be harsh on ourselves when we are looking for new solutions, so this takes some practice.

Today we are going to spend some time on the first step: Acknowledge your Feelings. Over the next few weeks, we will dive deeper into the other steps.

So, Acknowledge what you are feeling. You might be asking, okay, Nancy, but what do feelings have to do with anxiety? The truth is feelings have A LOT to do with anxiety. In fact, much of the time, when you are feeling anxiety, it is tied to feelings that you are not 'allowing yourself to feel.'

I cannot talk about feelings without pulling back and looking at the bigger issue, which is loyalty to self. Self-loyalty is something I talk A lOT about because people with H.F.A. have a high sense of loyalty to their friends and family, anyone on their inner circle they feel extremely loyal to, they will go to the ends of the earth for their people. Yet when it comes to themselves, they often push aside whatever they are experiencing; people with H.F.A. can push through and ignore discomfort and pain like nobody's business. In fact, being able to push through and soldier on is a point of pride for those of us with H.F.A. it also is a huge reason we struggle with anxiety. This pushing without acknowledging our experience leaves us living a life that is based on surviving the day rather than thriving in the day. A key to this work is building loyalty with ourselves, and that starts with being curious about our experience and acknowledging it.

Here are two different scenarios:

Scenario One:

You wake up in the morning, and you remember a business call with a difficult client you have later that day. You are immediately filled with dread, and your Monger is talking a mile a minute. You tell yourself, "change your thoughts, think positive; it will be fine." And every time the feeling of dread comes up, you tell yourself to change your thoughts and think positive. So all day long, you are pushing the feeling under the surface, ignoring the dread and pretending it isn't here. By the time the phone call comes around, you might be feeling pretty good. In fact, you write at the top of your paper, "You got this! No one can get you down!!" The phone call comes and goes. Although the client was still belittling, and you barely got through it without bursting into tears, you got through it! You did burst into tears afterward and spent the rest of the day bitching about the client and how he is so mean. Your Monger continues to hammer you for feeling weak, and by the end of the night, all you want to do is numb out with a glass of wine, some Oreos, and Netflix.

Things to notice in scenario one: You ignore whatever is coming up for you, there is no self-loyalty, no acknowledging of feelings there is just soldier on, think positive, and get through it. There is a sense that the client knows better, and you are destined to feel like crap anytime you work with this client. In scenario one, you are surviving life. You are moving through life, trying not to get snagged by uncomfortable feelings and white-knuckling it through unpleasant situations. You aren't trying to find a resolution, and you aren't diving any deeper than necessary. This is where many of my clients with H.F.A. live.

Scenario Two:

You wake up in the morning, and you remember a business call later that day. You are immediately filled with dread, and your Monger is talking a mile a minute. Hmm, what's that about, you wonder? And you ask yourself to just label what you are feeling. You are feeling insecure and nervous. You remember that the last time you had this call with this client, it didn't go well, and he was particularly harsh with you. When you arrive at work, you start brainstorming how you can help it go better. You know you are 100% prepared for the meeting, so it isn't your lack of prep it is the client's tone and communication style. You put a post-it note on your computer that says, "He will be harsh. It is not about you," to hopefully remind yourself that it isn't about you. He is just harsh. When you hang up the phone, you don't burst into tears (which is a step up from last time), but you still feel like something was missing. The client was particularly belittling, and the post-it note helped but not enough. On your way home, you kindly re-hash the conversation (meaning you aren't beating yourself up for what went wrong or that you felt uncomfortable, rather you are curious to note when you felt discomfort and what could be done differently next time). You remember it went off the rails when he asked for more details. He is such a detail person, and you just don't think like that. So you decide to ask a co-worker to help you drill down on the details. Maybe that will help for next time? You will be more have better answers, AND the sticky note will remind you it isn't about you.

Things to notice in scenario two: you are being loyal to yourself. First, curiosity is the theme; what am I feeling? What do I do with that? How can I make changes to acknowledge those feelings and do it differently? There is also a sense of fluidity, it isn't about surviving the call, it is about bringing curiosity to the call, being vulnerable, asking for help, and leaning into the discomfort so it can go better. You are more present to the whole situation, you are present to your thoughts, feelings, and actions, and you are present to your client's thoughts, feelings, and actions. You are engaged in your life. You recognize there is no perfect way. This process is trial and error and can get messy. But your overall goal for your life is to be as present and engaged as possible.

Here's the thing. Scenario two is the practice of Acknowledging your feelings. It is simply acknowledging they are there and then asking, okay, is there an action I can take to ease this feeling. Sometimes there isn't. Sometimes you are dealing with things that are out of your control, grief, sadness, change, etc. And in those situations, you are just going to acknowledge the feeling and sit with it in your body. You might ask yourself, what do I need now? Maybe it is to take a walk, or journal or maybe it is to numb. I say this because we have this mystic around acknowledging our feelings that when we do, we will be in this pit of despair, never to come out again.

When it comes to acknowledging our feelings, Dr. Susan David, a psychologist at Harvard Medical School, writes in her book Emotional Agility that there tend to be two types of people: Brooders and Bottlers.

Brooders: They can't let it go. They are flooded by feelings. They tend to keep score of their hurts. Their intention is good. They want to feel happy, so they try to move beyond their negative feelings by thinking through their feelings and experiencing them fully over and over.

Bottlers: Hold it all in, but it usually comes out in other places through misdirected feelings, physical ailments, or numbing. Their intention is good. They want to feel happy, so they try to move beyond their negative feelings by ignoring them and pushing them down.

In my experience, individuals who are overwhelmed by their Monger and struggle with High Functioning Anxiety tend to fall on the Bottlers side of the continuum. They hold it in because they don't want to experience a lot of their negative feelings. They tell themselves the grief is too intense, the regret is too much, and the anger is too strong.

Feelings are messy. They bring up stuff. Stuff we don't want to experience. Here are the patterns that most Bottlers get stuck in.

Stuff it down: We tell ourselves it isn't appropriate to feel that way, so we ignore it, usually followed by some type of Numbing, Soldiering On, or Having a 10 Reaction to a 2 Situation as discussed in the previous chapter.

Analyze it: One of the ways our Monger tricks us into thinking we are "feeling the feeling" is to analyze it. We think we are helping because we are trying to understand ourselves. But when we immediately jump to the why without allowing the feeling, we get stuck in justifying, proving, and defending the feeling, which leads nowhere. Yes, the why is important eventually, but first, we need to acknowledge the feeling and label it without defending it.

Judge it: Based on the why above, we move on to judging if it is okay that we are having the feeling; usually we decide it is not okay, so we circle back up to stuffing it.

Something that REALLY helped me with the feelings piece of the work is the research of Jill Bolte Taylor, a neuroanatomist and author of the New York Times best-selling memoir My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist's Personal Journey. She found that our feelings only last 90 seconds. She explains our emotional response like this:

"Once triggered, the chemical released by my brain surges through my body and I have a physiological experience. Within 90 seconds from the initial trigger, the chemical component of my anger has completely dissipated from my blood and my automatic response is over. If, however, I remain angry after those 90 seconds have passed, then it is because I have chosen to let that circuit continue to run."

Feelings are happening all the time. We see someone walking down the street towards us and we feel a certain way. Maybe we feel joyful or fearful. But the feeling only lasts a minute and then poof it is gone. The problem comes in when we judge our feelings, analyze them, and shove them back down because we decide they aren't worthy. When that judgment happens, we end up being punished for our feelings. Not only are we feeling something unpleasant but we're judging ourselves for the unpleasantness and forcing ourselves to feel it for longer than necessary! The messy process is compounded.

If you are a Bottler, this is helpful because you probably choose not to give yourself 90 seconds to feel the feeling. How often do you stop yourself from feeling something? You feel anger, and within 30 seconds, you say to yourself, "You shouldn't feel anger. Be grateful or be positive." So you stop the 90-second process. Later, your husband corrects you in front of a friend, and you go off on him because you are so angry. Holding on to the feeling way too long because we never let it do its thing in our body cuts the feeling at its knees, which leaves us full of anxiety and stress.

For those who are Brooders, this is helpful to know because it reminds you that if you are experiencing anger about a certain event for longer than 90 seconds, it is probably because you choose to keep replaying the event in your brain and triggering the 90-second cycle every time.

Researchers at UCLA found that people have the belief that if they name the feeling they will feel worse. But in additional studies, they found that when we use one or two words to own the feeling, we have less of a biological response. The key is in the labeling.

Many of my clients who are Bottlers live in fear of becoming a Brooder. They think that if they own one of their feelings, that makes them super needy and a wallower. Here's the reality for all you Bottlers out there: the danger of you becoming a Brooder because you start labeling your feelings is highly unlikely. We are less likely to get stuck in the feeling when we label it. We get stuck in the feeling when we start obsessing about the why and justifying if it is okay to have the feeling. That justification often leads to drama and Having a Level 10 Reaction to a Level 2 Situation. When we label the feelings, we allow ourselves the 90 seconds and it is over. That is it. Nothing mysterious or crazy.

Acknowledging your feelings is a process. Owning that you are feeling something after years of pushing it down and avoiding it takes time. So make sure to give yourself a break as you work through this step.

When we have spent our whole lives avoiding our feelings, being able to identify them and label them is like learning a foreign language. In the show notes, I will link to the Feelings Chart that lists feelings and their intensities. Use this as a way to get in touch with what you are feeling.

Whenever I notice my Monger is loud or that low buzz of anxiety is hanging around, I will grab for the feelings sheet and I will name 8-10 feelings. I encourage you to jump around the sheet when you first start labeling your feelings, everything feels like it is a high intensity because you are so uncomfortable with feelings in general, so we only allow for a feeling when it is high intensity. For example, for those of us uncomfortable with anger, we might just be annoyed or upset about something (relatively low intensity) but we have to pump ourselves up and amplify the problem until we are seething because then we can justify the feeling better. There is a big difference between feeling seething and feeling annoyed. Recognizing the intensities and knowing that not all feelings are high intensity is helpful in making us more comfortable with feelings overall.

Just notice your tendency to do hang out in the high intensity emotions and challenge yourself to name as many feelings as possible. By the time you name 8-10 you can really see how the feelings are coming out. For example, with regards to the client call in the scenario earlier you might feel panicky, worthless, embarrassed, unworthy, worried, unsure, intimidated, disappointed, uneasy, insecure. Those feelings included sad, angry, afraid and ashamed, you could even through in relieved and thankful when the call is over.

Acknowledging your feelings is the first step in channeling your Biggest Fan—and one of the hardest. Give yourself lots of time and room with this step. Your Monger is not comfortable with feelings and will give you a lot of pushback. That is okay and to be expected.

As you hear your Monger chatting, practice A.S.K. Acknowledge that this process is uncomfortable.

Own that it is stretching you.

Label that it makes you want to crawl out of your skin. Our Monger loves to distract us from the truth in our life. The more you can acknowledge what is really going on, the better you will feel.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 118: The Joy of Missing Out With Tonya Dalton

In this episode, I chat with Tonya Dalton a productivity expert about her ideas for reducing stress and anxiety when it comes to our to-do list.

I have often fallen for the trap of thinking that a new system–a new calendar, a new journal, a new app–was all that I needed to keep me organized and bring order to the chaos. 

But all around me are piles of half-filled calendars, abandoned bullet journals, and long lost apps–the evidence of well-meaning systems that I started only to later abandon.

I know that it isn’t a flaw in the systems that’s the problem. It’s my own lack of commitment to these systems that is the problem. I know this truth, and yet I still struggle to live in that place. It is so much easier to just blame the freaking system.

In January we are inundated with the new year, new you message. It is a time when starting a new system for change is particularly alluring. And all this month we have been taking a different look at how change works. 

We’ve covered: setting New Year’s resolutions without succumbing to the hype, working through our challenges so that we can live a life that is true to our values, what Mr. Rogers can teach us about slowing down and being present, and how the concept of Spiraling Up can be applied to a life long of growth and change. 

I thought it would be nice to end the month on a conversation with Tonya.

Tonya Dalton is a productivity expert, author, speaker, and founder of inkWELL Press Productivity Co, a company centered around productivity tools and training. 

So, of course, when I started reading her book, The Joy of Missing Out, I was hopeful that Tonya could fix me with a shiny new system for finding joy in doing less. I soon realized that wasn't the case. 

Instead, Tonya gets it. She understands the struggle. She isn’t about some “all you have to do is follow my system and you will be cured” way of thinking. 

As you know, like most of my clients, my BS meter is pretty, and when I was reading Tonya’s book, it was like Tonya was reading my mind. Every objection I had, she had a way to make it approachable and doable. 

Listen in to see which ones I've added to my life, and at the end of the interview, I'll share how it's still going. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What Tonya has to say about our love with the to-do list and how to think about it differently.

• Why Tonya is so passionate about productivity.

• What she sometimes calls ‘million-dollar minutes’ and how it will help you think about your time differently.

• And how to work with resistance and the process of change

Research and resources mentioned:

• inkWELL Press

• The Joy of Missing Out

• Productivity Paradox Podcast

+ Read the Transcript

Tonya: Life happens and things shift and things change. And so you have to allow for that ebb and flow of life. And I know that can be a challenge if you are dealing with a lot of anxiety and you want to do the same thing every single day.

Nancy: So often when a client gets overwhelmed, they say to me, I think I just need a new system, a new calendar, a new app, something that will keep me more organized.

Oh my gosh, can I relate to that idea! I have lost many afternoons. Looking for a new system. I have piles of half-filled calendars and long lost applications. It isn't about the system. It is about your commitment to doing the system. I know that truth, and yet I struggle to live in that place. It's so much easier to blame the freaking system, which is why I was so intrigued to chat with Tonya Dalton about her book, the joy of missing out.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, we have been taking a different look at how change works. January is a time when we're inundated with new year, new you a fresh start, change everything about you, and then you'll be happy messages.

I thought it would be nice to end the month with a conversation with Tonya Dalton. Tonya is a productivity expert and she runs the business inkwell press. So of course, when I started reading her book, The Joy of Missing Out, I was hopeful that Tonya could fix me with a shiny new system for finding joy in doing.

But I soon realized that wasn't the case. Instead, Tonya gets it. She understands the struggle. This isn't some, all you have to do is follow my system and you'll be cured. As my BS meter is pretty high as is most of my clients. And it was like, Tonya was reading my mind. Every objection I had, she had a way to make it approachable and doable.

I have implemented some of Tonya's tips and I am still doing them almost three weeks later, which is freaking huge for me. Listen in to see which ones I've added to my life. And at the end of the interview, I'll share how it's still going. Tonya. And I talk about our love with the to-do list and how to think about it differently, why she is so passionate about productivity, something she calls million-dollar minutes and how it will help you think about your time differently and the process of change and working with resistance.

I absolutely love this interview with Tonya, and I know you will too. I'm excited to talk to Tonya from inkwell press. Who's written this amazing book called The Joy of Missing Out, which all of us could could embrace a little bit, some joy of missing out.

I know how you, you said you wrote this book because it's been in you for years and you were willing to get up at four 30 in the morning to write it.

Tell me, why did you write this book?

Tonya: I really wrote it. I feel like it's almost like my love letter to women to say it's okay, where you are. You have absolute permission to be who you are and to live the life you want, but stop acting like you don't have the choices. You actually have the ability to choose the life you want. And here's a roadmap in order to really make that happen. Because I think so often we hear this whole rah, rah, you can do it, you can do everything, you can do all this. And it's hold on a minute. First of all, we don't want to do everything. We're going to wear ourselves out.

But then if there are things that we really want to do, how do we actually make that work? Because we still have to pay the bills. We still have to mow the grass. We still have to do the laundry. How do we actually. Create that life for ourselves. It sounds fabulous. But I felt like I read a lot of books that were like, oh, we need to stop being busy and we need to, and that's obviously one of the things I truly believe in, and we lean into that message in the book, but how in the world do you make that happen?

And that's what I wanted to write for women is how do you actually make that life achievable for you?

Nancy: Yeah, that's what I loved about the book is that I agree there are so many books out there telling us what we need to be doing and my question is constantly, but how, and so you really walk through the, but how of it, and I have implemented some of your tips and it really has made a big difference.

Tonya: I love hearing that, that makes me happy.

Nancy: And so it is just an I had a client recently say to me something like I'm finally going to stop resisting all the stuff you're suggesting for me and actually do it. And I think that's what I'm finding for me is like the daily downloads that you talk about, that's something I've started implementing and I love that concept.

But at some point you have to sit down and be willing to do the daily download. Like it's not just magically going to happen

Tonya: I think that is the thing, , we dream of this life and we're like, oh, I want this. But it takes effort to make it happen. We talk about those three resources that we all have of time, energy, and focus.

So to really affect a change in our lives. We have to apply time, energy, and focus to make that happen. So I love that you're doing the daily download because I think that is truly one of the best ways to end your day and to set up tomorrow for success. It really does build momentum. But that whole idea of, people get caught up in this thought of oh, one more thing to do.

And it doesn't need to be one more thing to do. If it feels like one more thing to do, then don't do it right. Do things that are fulfilling. We want to do things that build that momentum that make us feel good. I think we under value that feeling of satisfaction. When we slip into bed at night, when we our head hits the pillow and we think, you know what, today was a good day, right?

So less things in our day that drive us to that end point. Let's do things that allow oh us to end our days feeling satisfied, because that is something that far too many women don't get in their days. So what the daily download, it really is this idea of celebrating your wins. Really reflecting where you're spending your time, how you're feeling throughout your day, how you're spending your gratitude.

And I walk all through this, through in the book, one of the things that we talk about in the book also is this idea of habits and really establishing these types of routines that happen on a regular basis. One of the first things we talk about with habits is you need to articulate the habit.

What is the habit you want to create? And why do you want to do it? I think so often we set up these routines for ourselves, or we set up these habits or we set up these rituals that we think we are supposed to do that we should do. Oh, I should be journaling. This person tells me I should be journaling.

This person tells me I should be doing this. I should be working out in the morning. We are shoulding all over ourselves.

Here's the thing, figuring out your why do you want to do this? So with the daily download the why there is that it really does allow you to end your day feeling successful. And it sets up tomorrow for success. So if that why is enough that it makes you feel good, you're going to want to do it again.

And really it's such an integral part of my routine because I do it, but I do mine before I leave my office and then I leave it out. So I can use that as my springboard for planning the next day. So when I sit down in the morning and I'm planning out, where am I spending my time today? I'm looking at that.

So first of all, celebrate the wins from yesterday. So that starts my day. Let's say you wake up in the morning and you stub your toe the water in the shower's not hot, you're starting your day, not feeling great. You get in and you're ready to start your planning.

And you're like, oh, you know what? This is a chance for me to reset yesterday was a good day. I'm starting today with some wins. Really it is this idea. Let's do things that feel good. Let's do things that drive us to that life. We really want not the life we think we're supposed to want, not the life that our mother wants for us or a mother-in-law or a boss or whoever else.

What's the life that you are wanting. And what are the things that will make you get closer to that life on a daily basis? We think it's these giant leaps we have to make. It's a small, incremental step. That's what gets us to that ideal life.

Nancy: Yeah. Because that's what I like about the daily download there's a lot of things I like about it.

And, but what I really like about it is I tend to, and I know a lot of my clients tend move so quickly through what we've done. And so we're just constantly on to the next thing. And so I like that the daily download forces me to sit down and be like, these are the things you did today.

Because a lot of times I'll be like, oh, I didn't, I hit two out of the three things. So I'm a loser because I didn't hit all three. And the daily download, I was like, oh, but this is all the stuff you did instead of hitting that third thing that we're winning. And so having that reflection has been really helpful.

Tonya: I love hearing that for you because I think it's so true. So quick to think about the things that we didn't do well, and we forget altogether all the things that we did that were good in the day. And so just taking one minute to stop and really think about what did I do for me. And I talk about this a little bit in the book, When people would say to you oh, what did you do today?

And then you're like, I have no idea what I do. Nothing makes you feel more like a failure then. I don't know what, I don't think I did anything today. So taking a minute to celebrate those accomplishments. To actually pat yourself on the back and say, all right, good work today because you did this, and that, and it doesn't have to be giant things.

It can be little things. It can be, not forgetting to call your mom today to check in on her or, making the kids a healthy lunch today. All of those things are things we're celebrating. They're all things that you're doing, but we tend to just slip them to the side because, ah, this is just what I'm supposed to do, or this is just how life works and let's stop and let's actively celebrate and reflect on it.

Nancy: .Yeah, totally. Yes, because even like yesterday I ran to the grocery store which is something I hate doing and I hate it because it pulls me away from work and it feels like a waste of time. But then in doing the daily download, I was like, Food. Yeah. Yeah. And I found it a good time and to do it, that fit in my schedule.

So it wasn't a waste, also, the other part, and obviously I love the daily downloads because we've spent so much time on them. But the other part is because a lot of what I talk about with my clients is being kind to themselves. And that's what I liked when you have the idea of then reflecting on the day, what worked, what didn't work.

And the idea that you start each day planning each day. I have never heard that before, too, which made so much sense to me. The idea of. What how does this day feel and everything I've heard is go for the whole week.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the messages we get are about the hustle or they like hustle.

Yeah. Ask anybody how they're doing. They usually answer what the word busy. Which is not an emotion. It's really just, a badge of honors showing them. That they think that they must be doing something if they're busy. And so I really think that's one of the things that's important to eliminate and do away with.

Is this feeling that we are supposed to be busy. Going to the grocery store, like you said, that is a win because you need to eat. But we undervalue. Even though the essential need right there. That's a basic, that's like the bottom of Maslow's pyramid that we absolutely need to be able to eat.

Nancy: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. That's a good point. Okay. So I want to back up a little bit, because I jumped right in to the middle of the book. But I want to, I want my listeners to hear your definition of overwhelmed, because I just loved that.

Tonya: Yeah. Because I do feel like this was the thing is, in talking with women in all different walks of life and all different areas, doing all different kinds of jobs.

I would say to them, how are you feeling about your job or how are you feeling about work or how are you feeling about your business or how you feeling about your home life? And they would answer, oh my God, I'm so overwhelmed. And I think that's true.

We live in this constant state of overwhelm. We're overwhelmed by everything we have to do or overwhelmed by our own to-do lists. We're overwhelmed by all the responsibilities that we feel obligated to take on. And I like to tell people overwhelm isn't having too much to do. It's not knowing where to start.

And I think when you know where to start, you feel so much more competent oh, okay, this is where I'm going to start. And when you create a day and you add a little bit of structure to it, it allows you to know where you're going to start and where you're going to go next.

And there's a lot of empowerment in that idea of knowing where you're going to start knowing what you're going to do next, because there's so many things floating around in our head. In our crazy long to do lists, and we don't know where to start.

So we start with what's easiest or what's going to give us the quickest check mark on our to-do list. And so if we stop and we really figure out, okay, where do I start? What's going to drive me forward in a way that makes me feel successful. If we start there, the overwhelmed just slips away and we stop feeling like we're harried and anxious and worried about what we should be doing.

And instead we're taking action

Nancy: Yeah, I loved your example of the returning the shirt to target and how we would mark that as an urgent task, I think is what we I forgot.

Tonya: Yeah, exactly. Mark it as an escalated task because we think urgent and it's important while it is urgent, it does need to happen.

It's not necessarily important. And I think that's one of the big things that people lose sight of. We think anything and everything that is urgent is also important. And it's not the things that you think are really important aren’t. Things that are truly important are things that are connected to your north star, your mission, your vision, your core values, the things that you want to do to get to that life you want.

They're linked to your goals. They are things that are essential. They have to be done by you. And they're advantageous. They're really going to benefit you. They're an investment in your future. And when you think about something like returning a shirt to Target that doesn't really fit any of those bills.

It doesn't play any of that. And I know people will say yeah, but I'm on a budget. I get that. But you're going to spend, $5 with a gas to go return a 7 99 shirt, which then you're going to spend an hour at target and another hundred thousand. Because we all do it. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. This is the thing is I'm not saying you're not ever going to return the shirt to Target. I'm just saying let's not revolve our day around returning the shirt to Target. Let's do that at the end of our day. Let's first do the tasks that are truly important because that's when we slip into bed with that feeling of satisfaction, when we're doing fewer tasks.

That are important rather than doing many tasks that are unimportant. We get caught up in the numbers we get in that numbers game of how many things did I do instead of what did I do to really drive me toward that life I want. There's a big difference in that.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. Because when I first read that about the Target shirt, I was like, oh, that's a little, privileged.

Like I'm not going to return the shirt, but then you said like how much money are you spending to get there? And for a 7 99 shirt, which is true and there are a lot of other uses for that shirt and you would go to Target and spend more money.

Tonya: And truly one of the things I think about too is, in the book, we talk about that.

The woman that I spoke to, who's a CEO who says it's not my worth my time. I would just donate it. And like you said, you can look at that as privileged, or you can look at that as, putting forth some good into the world, because what I like to do with things like that is I like to think to myself about the woman who is working all day long, who's working really hard in her life and wants to provide for her family.

Who's going through that thrift store that I've donated to and who happens to find a brand new shirt from Target with the tag on it, that's affordable and in her price range. And I had just given that woman a big win for her day. Yes. For some good into the world, instead of thinking that makes me privileged.

Instead, I think I love that I'm able to do something to brighten someone else's day. I'll never see that woman. I won't get that brief high of her seeing the shirt and seeing her face light up. But I know it's there and that is what helps give me a little satisfaction in my day is I want to do things that impact the world in a positive way.

I want to do things that make a difference and little things like that add up. They make a difference.

Nancy: Absolutely. And when we are head down, checking off the to-do list. We're not doing that.. So let's talk about the to-do list because my clients are huge fans of that. You are not a big fan of the to-do list.

Tonya: . So when I tell people that you need to toss your to do list, it's like an audible gas. It's and I talk about this in the book. It's like the security blanket, right? It's like when Linus’, blanket is in the dryer and he doesn't know what to do.

But here's the thing your, to do list is taking you everywhere, but where you want to go, because it is too long. I can guarantee you right now. If your listeners pull out their to do list, they're going to see there's probably, 48 hours worth of tasks that they think they're going to get done.

And then. Yes, way too long. It's jumbled and unorganized and it's really chaotic. And as we talked about a few minutes ago, overwhelmed, isn't having too much to do. It's not knowing where to start a long to do list. Just confuses you more. So I like to tell people that instead of a, to do list, make a priority list.

Which is essentially a to-do list with intention. It takes the exact same amount of time to create as a to-do list, which you're very intentionally choosing what tasks I'm going to start my day with and what I'm going to end my day with. And so this is the thing it's that whole idea of, you could tackle 50 things if you wanted to, if you were standing in a spot and you took 50 steps, In 50 different directions where you're gonna end up maybe in the same spot, maybe further behind.

But if instead you choose to take five steps, five steps forward in that same direction, where are you going to end up closer to where you want to go? And that's what a priority list does is it shows you what are the first steps you want to take? What's the second step you want to say, what's that third step.

And it gets you closer to where you want to go. So essentially you're taking your to-do list and you're dividing it into three categories or three priority sections of escalate, cultivate and accommodate. And we start our day with escalate, which, we touched on a minute ago, which is those tasks that are important.

So they're driving you towards your goals. They're getting you closer to that ideal life. They're advantageous. They're an investment in you, but they also are urgent. So they're important, but they also have a looming deadline. They're screaming out at you wanting to be taken. So we start our day, taking care of those things.

And then the next part, the next section is our cultivate. So we take care of our escalate tasks. Then we take care of our cultivating tasks. And these are tasks that are also important, just like escalate. So they're driving you towards your goals. They're moving you forward towards that life. You want their advantageous.

But they're not urgent, so they don't have, a deadline. They're not going to be something that's screaming out at you, but this is the area where you're going to see huge leaps and bounds in your personal growth and your professional growth, because they are truly an area where you are cultivating, you are investing in yourself for the future.

So it might be things like, working on your budget for your health. It could be working on your marketing plan. If you own your own business, it could be, working on a project that's not due for three more weeks because that will elevate and you can be creative and all those things.

That's really where we want to spend the majority of our time with things that are important, but are not like screaming deadlines. So we want to spend more of our day there, but because of our to-do list, we take care of the urgent things first and those get pushed aside. So cultivate is that second category.

And then the third category. Is our accommodate. And these are things like returning that shirt to Target. So it is urgent needs to be done. It's not really important. It's not driving you closer to that life. You want. It's just something that is screaming out at you. It's basically 99% of what's in your email inbox right now.

They moment maybe dictate by email and things like that when really most of what's in there is junk or it's, not truly things that are important. So if we start our day at the top with escalates, and then we work on our cultivate tasks, and then we end our day with accommodate tasks or we kind of shoe horn, those accommodate tasks, wherever they can be accommodated in our day.

That means that we're doing most of the most of our day. We're spending our time on important things on things that drive us forward that give that feeling of happiness and satisfaction.

Nancy: That is something I really took away beause I know for me, I spend so much more time, not on those cultivate tasks.

Tonya: I think that's true

Nancy: Yeah. I'm checking off the urgent things, because those give me that hit a dopamine. The immediate, as you talk about that immediate sense of gratification and the cultivate tasks, don't.

Tonya: Cultivate tasks take a little bit longer because they are an investment and we don't get that immediate.

Ah, I felt good, but if set for yourself, let's say you have a project due in three weeks and for your cultivate, area for the, today, you spend 15 minutes working on that project and you say to yourself, I'm going to spend 15 minutes every day, this week doing that.

You're going to get that feeling of satisfaction. When, when you see that work, getting closer to being done and you're able to really truly do your very best work. I think this is a thing we do really get caught up in the numbers. We get caught up in the quantity when really it's quality that wins hands down.

Every single time we want a quality life. We want to create quality that we're putting forth into the world. Whether that's something for our job or time with our families, it really is quality that we should be focusing on.

Nancy: Yeah. And when I've gone and done the daily download. It's the cultivate tasks that I feel the best about.

And I wouldn't have recognized that had I not started the daily downloads, to be honest, because I always am after hunting the hit.

Tonya: We are we're searching for that dopamine hit because it feels good to cross things off your list. This is why people write down things after they've done it just to cross it off the list.

And let's be honest here. I think most people have done that at some point in their lives because it just feels so dang good to just cross that off and be like, yep. When really that means we're using our to-do list as a mood enhancer. We're not using it as a tool to drive us forward.

Nancy: Ah, yes, that's very well said. So that brings me to the idea of stories, because I think that is a big reason we don't do the cultivate tasks. Because the stories we tell ourselves. And they're so prolific. I mean this is a big bulk of my work with clients is on unhooking these stories, but the hardest part of them is catching.

The story. Because they're so familiar, they're so comfortable. We like, I call them like this warm, itchy sweater that we wear and we put it on and it's amazing. And then it starts to get itchy, but by the time it's itchy, we are well into the story So how do you catch the story?

Tonya: I love this question because we all have these stories that we tell ourselves about what what a good boss does or what a good manager does or what a good mom does or what a good friend does. And these stories dictate how we live our life.

And these stories are most often steeped in other people's values and other people's truths and not really realistic for yourself. They're so hard to live up to that. This is part of why we feel like a failure at the end of the day. Even though we were busy all day long. We feel like we didn't do enough because of these stories that we tell ourselves.

So I think one of the things that we can do to really catch those is as we're finding ourselves negative self-talking, which we do, we, oh, you're the worst. I can't believe you did X, Y, and Z, or you did this. What's wrong with you, right? We say these things in our heads. So ugly. We would never say them to our friends.

We would never say them to someone we didn't even like, but we think nothing hang them to ourselves. And so when you catch yourself negative self-talking and you will, because you'll recognize it. You'll be like, I want you to stop and ask yourself, why do I feel like I'm not doing well? Why do I feel what's making me say these things in my head?

And try to uncover and work backwards to what is the story that I am telling myself, if it's, that you didn't know. I don't know. Didn't get the ingredients for dinner that night. Is it that a good mom always has dinner on the table at 6:30 PM because that's not really realistic with the world that we live in, for your job. It's not realistic for the activities that you're doing with your family. It's not realistic for a thousand different things. So we need to go backwards and begin to realize whenever we're feeling this self-talk happening, this negative self-talk stop and ask yourself why. And it's not enough to ask yourself why one time you need to ask yourself why?

I like to say the fifth, why? That's really like a term that we use in operations getting to that fifth. Why you're not going to uncover the story with the first. Why do you feel this way? I'm a bad mom. Why? I'm a bad mom, because I didn't get, dinners the ingredients for them.

Why does that make you a bad mom? It makes me bad and you start working backwards and about during the fourth or fifth, why you're going to get to that story. So you have to peel back those layers of the onion. Ask yourself why again, just harness that inner three-year-old.

Who's always asking why. One more line one more way. And here's the beauty of it is once you can uncover the stories, they lose their power because we are the authors of our own journey. We are the ones who can rewrite our endings and we can rewrite our stories. And that's why it's so powerful and so important to stop and ask yourself why and ask why again and ask why again and let those stories come to life.

So you can realize this is not truly livable. I need to rewrite this story and I need to say something different to myself and then actively choose what you're going to say. Instead, a good mom does her best to get dinner on the table. A good mom tries to get dinner on the table, three times out of the week, that's more livable or more achievable.

Think about what's really gonna work for you and rewrite your stories because you absolutely positively have that ability and you have that strength inside of you. It's all about reframing how you look at it. It's all about shifting your mindset and you have a hundred percent ownership over your mindset and the stories that you tell yourself

Nancy: That fifth why is really a great that's just great.

Over the holiday, I was thinking about the new year and I wasn't real excited about. Resolutions and blah, blah, blah.. I wasn't doing the fifth. Why? Because I didn't know that existed, but I was just kept thinking about what's the story I tell myself around work.

What's the story? And I finally realized it's, I assume I'm always wrong. I'm always going to do it wrong. And so whether that's sending an email or doing this interview, or talking with a client I'm always assuming I'm going to do it wrong. And I was shocked that once I unhooked, once I got it, which took me a long time to get to the root, that was the story.

Once I got to the root. It has, that has shifted. Yeah. And I would not have believed it, that it would shift that quickly.

Tonya: It’s pretty amazing because it's so easy to combat because you can start looking backwards, reflecting and really start to see evidence that proves you wrong.

But you don't do, you don't do anything. Because then you're like this. I did that. I did this. And you actively argue back with yourself essentially and say, I'm not going to listen to this anymore because I know I've done these things. And then again, that ties in that whole idea of the daily download.

Nancy: I was just going to say that!

Tonya: That every day you say what your doing well, what you're doing. And I think there's so much value.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. One of the phrases I'll always say is, you're not eight years old because for me, I, because that assumption that I'm always wrong.

I always act like I'm eight years old. Like I entered the world like a little kid and everyone knows better than me but I had to get to the specifics of assuming I'm always wrong to really unhook it like that specifically. Because of the fifth why. It is the key.

Tonya: Yes, I absolutely agree. Bring it to light.

I think this is the thing is those things like the hide in the shadows and you bring them to light and they just shrink up as soon as you acknowledge them, as soon as you take away their power. They, they can't do anything to you anymore. And I think that's really important to remember, if you are dealing with anxiety, where does that come from and what's making you feel this way and really allowing those things to to lose their control over.

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. So I loved your idea of the routines. And when you were talking about getting up in the morning at 4:30 to write your book,

Tonya: crazy, right?

Nancy: Yes Because I was reading it and I was like, oh geez. Yeah, you get up and you have the meditation in bed and right when I'm like, oh geez, you were like, no, Bluebirds are not coming out of my computer the mice are not, magically singing. And I was like, okay, good. that made me think, she gets this is hard. And so a lot of the people that I deal with high functioning anxiety really have that all or nothing mentality.

And so when they set a routine, they need to do it every morning. It needs to be, they need to be loving it. They have all these, again, those stories. And you talk a lot about flexibility. So talk more about any suggestions on how to allow more flexibility. Because I loved how you really address that in the book, which was awesome.

Tonya: Yeah you're right. I use the word flexibility all the time because you know what? Life needs flexibility. It is life. Things happen and things shift and things change and sometimes emergencies pop up or sometimes you're just too dang, tired to get out of bed, so you have to allow for that ebb and flow of life.

And I know that can be a challenge. If you are dealing with a lot of anxiety and you want to do the same thing every single day. So there's a couple of things that you can really do to build in a little bit of that flexibility into your day. First of all, I really advocate having two versions of your routine of your morning routine and your evening routine.

Or any routine that you have into the Workday routine, whatever it is, your longer routine is like everything you really want to do. And it feels really good. Whether that's, enjoying your cup of coffee while, sitting on the porch or, maybe it's reading a book for 15 minutes or maybe it's journaling for 10 minutes, or maybe it's taking an extra long shower.

Whatever it is, it needs to fit you and what you want. There's no special formula. There's no special magic that everybody has to do. You do what works for you. So have a longer routine that really does nourish all of those bits. It's really important to also have a little dose of reality here that not every day is going to be made of sunshine and lollipops.

We need to make sure I'd have a shorter routine day that works for us as well. So it really does pull out the key components of your longer routine. Maybe on your longer routine day, you take a, like an eight minute shower and you journal for 15 minutes and you spend 10 minutes reading your copy.

Maybe your shorter routine is. You take a five minute shower and you journal for only five minutes or you don't journal at all. And instead you do the time with your coffee, really prioritize what's most important to you. Maybe your long routine takes an hour to do or an hour and a half we'll say.

And then your shorter routine. 30 45 minutes at the very most that allows a little bit of that flexibility that you're still doing your routine. You're still pulling some of the things that are truly important to you because this is what I love about morning routines. Let's put some things in our morning routine that make us feel good that really inspire us.

That could easily be, let's say you're a creative person that you want 10 minutes to just doodle and draw on, on a notepad. Build that into your morning routine. Maybe it is listening to a podcast episode or reading a devotional or whatever it is, build that in. That feels good to you.

It's all about customizing things that work for you. So have a longer routine and have a shorter routine. And then throughout the day, the other thing that you can really do to build in this flexibility is add buffers to your time. So let's say that you think a task is going to take you an hour to do build it into an hour and 15 minutes.

On your calendar and when you finish it in an hour, what you're gonna do is you're gonna take that 15 minutes and you're going to bank it up, either do something that you want with that time, or save that 15 minutes for later on at the end of the day and save up. I like to say you can save them up like little pennies, 15 minutes here, five minutes there.

So the end of the day you do something really nice for you. Build in a little bit of that flexibility when you're making your calendar. And I think that's why it's so important to me that you plan each day as it comes, you have to treat each day as a new gift, as a new opportunity, as a chance for you to do what it is you want to do.

And by planning out each day, you get that flexibility in your life today feels like a great day. I'm going to do more of these things. Or, you know what, today doesn't feel so good. It's not a good day. I'm going to do fewer tasks. That's okay. We don't have to do the same number of things every single day.

We don't do everything exactly the same every day. Let's do what really works for you and let's make your life really work for you. And I think this is why so often. People balk at the idea of routine. I think it's so structured and so rigid and there's no room in there and I'm like, no, let's make the structure like a building, buildings.

Are designed to withstand, earthquakes and things like that. They're designed to move and shift with the wind a little bit. We need a little bit of that in our lives. You can still have that structure. You can still have that framework, but give it a little bit of looseness. So it really fits you.

Nancy: Yeah. Love that idea of the two different routines. Because that really answers the question, that's a baby step for my listeners of breaking out of that rigidity. Yeah. And giving them a taste of flexibility without going the whole hog into do whatever you want.

Like it's an intentional kind of like in between.

Tonya: Thing is, you talked about the fact that I was getting up at 4:30 in the morning. I was really excited about writing. That was that's so fulfilling to me, like getting to write was like, oh, it feels so good for the kids.

Get up before the rat race of getting them out the door. Everything else, but I wasn't planning on doing the 4:30 routine every single day. I committed to doing it three times a week and I had a different routine for those other days during the week. And if I wanted to get up four days in the week and write then I did it, but if I didn't want to, that was okay too.

You have to give yourself permission to be used. And I think we forget that we have that ability to give ourselves that permission.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. Because that's, what I work a lot with my clients on is in is a lot of what you're talking about is building a self loyalty, building a loyalty with ourselves.

We would get up at 4:30 for our kids, for our spouse to help them accomplish their goals, but we wouldn't do it for ourselves.

Tonya: Yes. We ended up outside of ourselves and our own needs because, we give, and then we feel guilty. And we really need to make sure that we understand too, that when we take care of our wants and our needs, when we get ourselves to a place that feels healthy and good, we're able to give our very best version to everybody else.

So when you take care of yourself, you can then take care of everybody else. Everybody else can be taken care of because you have charged your batteries. You cannot shine your light on everyone else. If your batteries need recharging. And I think we have to remember that.

Nancy: Yeah. Because I love the idea of even on the how you work.

Because I thought you were going to say, oh, it's so on the light day that the shorter routine, you just get the kids out and take care of business, but you still, even on your short routine you do something for you. Journal or yeah. Yeah. Which is awesome, which brings me to the idea of million dollar minutes.

I loved that phrase. Tell me more about that.

Tonya: Really for me and I talk about this in my morning routine, I have this time it's about nine to 10. That I call my million dollar minutes with my husband where I'm already up. I'm, I'm working on writing my book. I go and I wake the kids up and then I slip back into bed with my husband.

And it seems crazy to get back into bed, started your day, and you've already gotten up and brush your teeth. When I get back into bed with him and I spend 10 minutes on my marriage with intention. So we lay in the bed, we laugh, we maybe talk. Sometimes we just sit there and snuggle together. But it's time for me to give him 100% of my attention and I call it million dollar minutes, because I know if that time was taken away tomorrow, I would happily pay a million dollars to get it back.

And I don't even have a million dollars. And I think there's these million dollar minutes throughout our day, when the your kid comes and sits next to you on the couch and wants to talk about their day at school. And they don't normally want to talk about their day at school, but they want to talk to you.

That's the time where you're like, you're going to miss that. And in the hairiness of our everyday lives and the rushing after our to-do list, we don't think we have time to stop. Put our phone down or in the other room turn and look our children in the eye and say, tell me more. That's a million dollar a minute because you know what, when your kids have grown and left the house, you're going to pine for that.

You're going to want for that. And you're going to, you're going to miss it. So let's actively create those spaces for ourselves. Let's think about what are the million dollar minutes in our day and let's grab hold of them and squeeze every last dime out of that million dollar minute.

Nancy: Yeah. And again, to keep going back to my favorite thing from your book, the daily download allows you to find those million dollar minutes, because you're reflecting on your day and can be like, oh, here was one and here was one and here was one. Yes. And then capitalize on those moving forward. So again, I, obviously I love that daily download because it. Really helps me be more intentional.

Tonya: Yes. And that's what I like to tell people. When they ask me what I do, I like to tell them, I teach people. I teach women about productivity. I like to say I'm redefining productivity for women, but really you come in the door and I go, Hey, listen. It's really about intentional living. It's really about being mindful.

It really is about, not managing our time, but instead savoring the moments let's choose to be an active participant in our everyday lives. And let's find the joy. That's already there that we're missing because life is going so fast. Let's slow it down. Find the joy in our everyday lives.

That's the joy of missing out, right? Craziness, choosing to miss out on the long to-do list, choosing to miss out on the obligations that you said yes to you out of guilt instead of out of desire and want let's instead, choose to find the joy because there's already joy in your life. I can guarantee you, there are pockets of happiness hidden in your everyday life.

If you stop and take notice, you're going to enjoy life so much more.

Nancy: At the beginning of this conversation, I was going to, I think about when I thought about the planning each day, that is anxiety provoking for me because everyone tells me I should be planning the whole week.

And everyone tells me that I should be on top of things. And so planning each day sounds a little loosey goosey, but in our conversation I'm like, yeah, planning each day really brings to focus that intention.

Tonya: Yes, it really does because you can create your day with intention. You can either actively choose to carve out like these million-dollar minutes.

You know what, after school today, let's say you have three kids, today is I'm going to spend 10 minutes with child number two today, after school. And I'm going to give them 10 minutes of my undivided attention, and here's the thing is every day is different. So why do we think that we can plan out the day.

Five days ahead of time, you don't know how you're going to wake up. You don't know if you're going to have, a sick kid crawling into your bed at three o'clock in the morning. If you're going to have allergies and cold, you don't know if it's going to be one of those days. You just don't feel like doing anything.

We all have those days. So allow yourself the grace allow yourself the choice to really make the day work for you. Whatever that day may be.

Nancy: Because that I think so many because of our, because of so many of my clients with the anxiety treat themselves like a machine and planning each day. My thought would be even if my kid wakes me up at 3:00 AM, I still should be up and on my game, the same.

Tonya: Yeah, right

And I'm like, and it's ok not to be. Again this is probably tied to a story. A good mom gets up with her kids and make sure, you know what my story is, a good mom empowers her children to be able to get themselves up and to be able to create, their own breakfast. That's my story, that I've rewritten for myself.

So if I am having an off day and I need to lay in bed for 15 minutes longer, my kids can get started with their day. And I feel okay with that because I am empowering them. I'm giving them the tools. They need to be able to go on into life and fly my nest and be good productive adults. And I think that's the thing is we believe that we have to be the cruise director.

We have to manage everything. And when you give your family that ability to manage themselves, that is a gift that is really a tool you're putting in their toolbox to be able to go off into the world and be self-sufficient to be capable and able to create their own. And so we have to reframe again, it's that whole idea of mindset, right?

And the choices we make and the way that we talk to ourselves, we have to reframe that. And we have that ability to do that and look at how this is a benefit to other people that you're allowing them to get themselves up. Stop shoulding on yourself. You got to stop

Nancy: And that you're teaching your kids, that we're humans and that we have different needs.

And I could, I needed to take care of myself and not just be a machine.

Tonya: You're teaching your kids. If you are getting up and you are revolving your whole life around them, what are you teaching them about your value? What are you teaching them that life looks like when they're an adult, when they're a parent, how they're supposed to be, we're role modeling on a constant basis.

Giving them that ability to take care of things on their own is a gift. That's so much freedom. I feel like it's just like a weight lifted off of you to be able to say, okay, you can take care of this on your own go off into the world.

Nancy: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This thank you so much for taking the time.

To talk about this stuff. And, I can not recommend this book enough. And I have of blue library full of self-help books and productivity books. And this is one of the best I've ever read as because, because you really answer that. But how and question, which I think is so important and there's.

And you make it so approachable that I can pick and choose, all I'm doing is the daily download and the planning each day concepts, because those stuck out to me, but then there's more, it has a depth to it. Yeah.

Tonya: We don’t want to try to do everything all at once anyways. Because again, we're going to get overwhelmed.

So start with one thing that you pulled from the book, then add two and then. And make it, so it really works for you and pick and choose what does work for you, what doesn't work for you.

Nancy: Because that's what I appreciated it because so many times it's I even have a blog post that I wrote that says you don't need another system because my clients will be like, I just need a system and then everything will be better.

And your book is really looking at the whole picture and not just, you need to do step 1, 2, 3, 4, and then your problems will be solved..

Tonya: Yeah, there's no magic button Sorry. Yes. No, sorry. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but there is no magic button, no magic system that just takes it all away and makes life easy.

Like we said earlier. It takes a little bit of work. It takes some effort to, to change your mindsets, but we're really, when you do that, when you start creating a life for yourself, that feels meaningful, it is rewarding.

Nancy: Yeah, it, yeah. So I can't say enough. Good things. Thank you so much for taking the time.

And writing this book, getting up at 4:30 in the morning, (Laughing)

Tonya: Happy to do it. but thank you so much for having me on the show. I appreciate it.

Nancy: As you heard in the interview, I have added the daily download to my routine. I confess I'm still trying to make it a regular part of my routine because I frequently just forget to do it.

But when I do it, it is a total game changer. So I have a lot of motivation to keep carrying on. I have found that the more I slow down and intentionally plan, the more I accomplish. And I have also found that even though I know intentional planning works best, I still am drawn to that. Gosh, darn to-do list and the hit of dopamine from it.

But that hit does not even come close to matching the feeling of working with thoughtfully towards my goals. So as a reminder, this is all about making slow, intentional changes and remembering the power of spiraling.

Transcript:

---

Episode 117: You Aren’t Failing, You’re Spiraling Up

In this episode, we're going to look at how change works and specifically how the concept of spiraling up can be applied to the lifelong project of growth and change. How you can step up to new challenges with a new perspective and remind yourself that you aren't failing–you're just spiraling up.

Do you ever feel like you're repeating the same lessons over and over again?

Do you feel like the stuff you worked on 5, 10, or even 20 years ago has a way of coming back, even though you thought you'd found the solution? 

There's a very good reason for that and, no, it’s not because you're broken.

It’s because change isn’t one and done. It’s ongoing.

It’s because of a concept that I call Spiraling Up. 

It can often feel like we are relearning the same lesson over and over, but really we're experiencing a different level of that lesson–new situations, new challenges at a new level of insight. 

Change is like ascending a spiral stare case that presents us with new challenges the higher we climb. It’s not that we are relearning an old lesson, it’s that through life we are being presented with a new and higher level of that lesson. 

In this episode, we're going to look at how change works and specifically how the concept of spiraling up can be applied to the lifelong project of growth and change. How you can step up to new challenges with a new perspective and remind yourself that you aren't failing–you're just spiraling up.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How having to re-visit life-lesson does not mean that we are broken

• How while we do repeat lessons, we don’t unlearn all we have implemented before. We repeat the lesson one step up with a new perspective, new challenges, and new information

• What to do when we get stressed and overwhelmed and our triggers and patterns are more likely to reveal themselves

• What the research shows about the change that results from our life experiences, and how that change often leans in a positive, helpful direction

• How the process of change takes an unpredictable, non-linear path

Research and resources mentioned:

• Brent Rogers’ researcher on change

• Dr. Kelly McGonigal’s Tedx talk

+ Read the Transcript

Do you ever feel like you’re learning lessons over again? Like the stuff, you worked on 5, 10, or even 20 years ago has a way of coming back--even though you THOUGHT you’d found the solution?

There’s a very good reason for that. And don’t worry--it does NOT mean that you’re broken. I’ll tell you why we end up learning lessons over again soon--but first, a story.”

Sarah had worked for months on decreasing her tendency to please people. She had grown up in a chaotic home, and one of the ways she maintained control was by becoming really good at mind reading. Although as a child she walked on eggshells around her Mom, she also had an uncanny talent in predicting what would set her Mom off and worked hard to make sure none of those things happened. She could read her Mom and fine-tuned her skill in knowing when her Mom was upset, figuring out what caused it, and doing whatever was in her power to change the situation. She learned at an early age that mind-reading led to a happy Mom led to a less chaotic life. Sarah figured out that one of the ways to decrease the feelings of anxiety was to make sure everyone around her was happy. So it wasn’t long before her mindreading and people please extended to her friends, siblings, teachers, and anyone else she could come in contact with. Sarah was a master people pleaser, and it was exhausting. So through therapy, Sarah was able to see the pattern, recognize where it came from and why it was such a strong pull for her to make others happy. Sarah was healed, or so she thought, through therapy, she knew where her people-pleasing came from and that it wasn’t serving her anymore. She learned to recognize it, take action and stop the pattern, That is until recently.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

Sarah has hit a rough patch at work. To put it mildly, she is overwhelmed. Deadlines looming, staff not cooperating, miscommunication, you name it, it has gone wrong lately. Not to mention all the pressure Sarah is putting on herself for the new year. She was going to work out more and eat better, and try to stop taking everything out on her spouse. Sarah’s anxiety is through the roof, and before she knows it, that old pattern of people-pleasing is rearing its ugly head. Sarah starts staying late to cover for her staff, and when her new boss asks what is going on and why one of her staff is chronically late, Sarah makes excuses for her and explains that she is just having a tough time right now, but Sarah knows she will get it together. Sarah spends way too much of her time away from work analyzing how she can make it better, what she needs to do to change and how she can fix the problems that are plaguing her organization. Eventually, her spouse says to her, What is going on? You have been more stressed than usual and aren’t present at all when you come home. Sarah realizes she is back people-pleasing again. She isn’t saying no, her boundaries are out the window and her anxiety is through the roof. She realizes her new boss is a lot like her Mom, demanding, unpredictable, and unaware of how her actions affect the staff. So Sarah has stepped in to smooth everything over, she knows her staff is walking on eggshells, and as if she were 8 years old again there she is protecting everyone around her and not taking care of herself at all.

Sarah immediately starts beating herself up. I thought I had fixed this problem! I thought I was healed.

Well, here is the truth for Sarah. We all have patterns and triggers, and when we get stressed and overwhelmed, these triggers and patterns come out. The process of change isn’t linear. It isn’t like we learn a lesson, and we are done, we are ever-changing, ever-learning, ever getting triggered. Sarah hasn’t forgotten all she learned in therapy. She hasn’t gone back to zero. She is just learning this lesson again, from a different place. I call this Spiraling Up.

All this month, we are taking a different look at how change works. January is a time when we are inundated with new year, new you, a fresh start, change everything about you, and THEN you will be happy messages. In today’s episode, we are going to look at how change works, and specifically one of my favorite ideas around change, spiraling up.

One thing with change that rarely gets mentioned is a concept I call Spiraling Up. Visualize a spiral staircase and think of that spiral staircase as the lesson of people-pleasing. At the bottom of the staircase is people-pleasing unchecked; this was Sarah prior to going to therapy, she would react unconsciously to stressful situations by going into mind reading and people-pleasing. This was her go-to coping mechanism for her anxiety. After therapy, Sarah can see how her people-pleasing works to decrease her anxiety, that it came from her relationship with her Mom, and that it is something she can stop doing when she recognizes it. As Sarah goes through life, she notices herself people-pleasing, implements the strategies she learned in therapy such as paying attention to her needs, setting clear boundaries, staying in her own car, and she travels up the staircase. She can now interact with her Mom without getting overcome with triggers (it isn’t easy, but she can see when she starts mind reading for her Mom and make a shift)

But at some point, she will get snagged as she did recently with her new boss and work. So it might feel like Sarah is back to square one, but in reality, she has climbed up the spiral staircase and is learning this lesson at a different level. She mastered the lesson when it has to do with her Mom (for the most part), but now she is learning how to implement this lesson with someone different from her Mom.

At this point, you might be asking, is change even possible? Brent Rogers, a researcher from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, believes it is and has done a longitudinal research project to confirm his theory that personality change is cumulative over our lifespan. His study followed people over the span of 50 years, measuring how their personality shifted using what personality researchers call the big five personality traits.

Extraversion: How outgoing, social, cheerful, or full of energy and enthusiasm you are in social settings.

Agreeableness: How warm, friendly, helpful, generous, and tactful you are.

Emotional stability (or its opposite, neuroticism): How calm, content, and unflappable—versus anxious, angry, jealous, lonely, or insecure—you are.

Conscientiousness: How organized, efficient, and committed you are to finishing projects or reaching your goals.

Openness to experience: How curious, adventuresome, and receptive you are to new ideas, emotions, and experiences.

His research showed that change happens in response to our life experiences and often leans in a positive, helpful direction. Researchers found that people’s personalities did change, especially in the areas of emotional stability, conscientiousness, and agreeableness, but they weren’t dramatic changes. They were small, manageable changes made over time.

Change isn’t one and done. It is on-going. We might come back to the lesson, and it might feel like we are relearning the same lesson, but really, we are experiencing it at a new level with new insight, a new situation, a new challenge. And then, when we have that mastered, we will spiral up to another place.

You will have leveled up into a more difficult area, but still, the lesson will seem familiar.

The tendency is for Sarah to get stuck in frustration and disappointment that ugh! She has to work on this issue again in a different setting. This is a time when her Monger, aka inner critic, can get VERY LOUD. Telling her that she wasted money on therapy, she is a loser who never will get this figured out, and she is doomed to be a people-pleasing freak forever. Yep, that Monger is so mean! So at this point, she either decides to give up and admit defeat or bring in her Biggest Fan (her inner voice of compassion and wisdom), who reminds of the power of spiraling up, and the key to change is leaning into that discomfort.

Stanford University psychologist Dr. Kelly McGonigal is an expert on how our brain makes changes, and in her books and Tedx talk, she shares how a key part of change is embracing the discomfort of it. Let’s face it, change is uncomfortable and even more so when we realize that change is on-going. In all honesty, Sarah will be learning and re-learning this lesson of people-pleasing throughout her life. It won’t always be as hard as it is now, but it is a challenge she will face on some level over and over again. Dr. McGonical talks about how we miss acknowledging that most change is uncomfortable, even scary at times, and takes not just a can-do attitude but an element of courage. We have to call on that Biggest Fan to remind us that change is possible. It requires courage, kindness, and slow, mindful changes.

Once Sarah realizes she is spiraling up, she can call on the 3 main lessons she learned from her previous people-pleasing lessons such as:

The first lesson is: how uncomfortable it feels to stop people-pleasing. She knows it is hard to disappoint people, and she also knows because she did it with her Mom, she will survive. It sucks, and it is doable.

The second lesson she learned before: her co-workers are allowed to have their feelings, be disappointed, they can think that Sarah is a bitch (even though that might be unfair), etc. AND Sarah is allowed to have her feelings, insecure, uncomfortable, etc. She learned before that when she tries to control her co-workers feelings as she tried to do when she was younger with her Mom, it does not go well.

And the last lesson she learned before: the image of staying in her own car is very helpful. She knows when she is engaging in people-pleasing when she tries to jump into someone else’s car and is telling them how to drive, feel or respond.

And the last lesson she learned is to be kind to herself. This stuff is hard, and allowing her Monger to run the show doesn’t help anyone. Practicing regularly calling on her Biggest Fan is important to this process.

Sarah is going to take those lessons and any others she learned and use them as she figures out how to decrease her people-pleasing when it comes to a co-worker.

When you think about life lessons as Spiraling Up, it gives a new perspective. While we do repeat lessons, we don’t unlearn all we have implemented before. We repeat the lesson one step up with a new perspective, new challenges, and new information that we didn’t have the last time the lesson came into our lives.

So the next time you have a sense of déjà vu when it comes to a life lesson, don’t beat yourself up. Our Monger loves to think in black and white and be very doomsday about the fact that we are re-learning a lesson.

So take a pause and think back to all you have learned about this lesson in the past. Think back to how you used to handle this situation and remind yourself what you have learned.

Be kind to yourself that you got snagged again, remember this is all part of being human; you aren’t a failure; you are just learning.

Just as a child who is learning to walk falls, so to do we as adults, we lose our balance, we run into a new obstacle, but that doesn’t mean we forgot all we knew before.

Remind yourself that you aren’t failing; you are just Spiraling Up.

---

Working with me using my Coach in Your Pocket is perfect for those spiraling up lessons. You have done therapy, you have learned your triggers, examined your past you know you are Spiraling up but your Monger and High Functioning Anxiety are still running the show. Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

But this isn't how it is.

There is hope if you struggle with High Functioning Anxiety—it doesn't have to be this way. You can reduce your anxiety and keep your edge. You can have less self-doubt and still get a ton done.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time. Learn More

---

Episode 116: How Mr. Rogers Can Teach You To Slow Down And Be Present

Today’s episode is about slowing down and being in the present moment. One of our greatest teachers of this concept is Mr. Rogers and so I thought it would be fitting to do an episode about Mr. Rogers’s effect and some of the ways he has taught me to be present.

Have you ever sat in a movie theater and been blown away by a single quote?

One little line just floats into your brain and holds on for dear life?

This happened to me last Thanksgiving watching the new movie about Mr. Rogers, It’s A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood, and I have been thinking about it ever since.

In the scene, Lloyd Vogel, a cynical journalist who has been assigned to do a profile on Mr. Rogers, is calling to set up their first meeting. He is shocked to have Fred Rogers answer the phone. Not his assistant, not his handler, Mr. Rogers himself. Lloyd, not wanting to waste the time of an important person, suggests they set another time to talk. Surely Mr. Rogers has more important things to do. 

And here is what blew me away: In response to this suggestion, Mr. Rogers says, “What do you think is the most important thing in the world for me right now? To speak on the phone to Lloyd Vogel.”  

When I heard this line I audibly gasped.

The quote got me thinking: How often do I miss conversations or important moments because, in my head, I am already moving on to the next thing? How often does my worrying about what comes next distract me from the important things that are happening right there in the present moment? 

Almost all my clients have mentioned to me how hard the month of January can be. For a variety of reasons–the darkness, the packing up of the holidays for another year, the inundation of self-improvement New-Year-New-You messages–this time of year can be challenging. 

This is why my goal this month is to give you different ways to think about this New-Year-New-You crap and reframe how you think of change and self-improvement. 

Today’s episode is about slowing down and being in the present moment. One of our greatest teachers of this concept is Mr. Rogers and so I thought it would be fitting to do an episode about Mr. Rogers’s effect and some of the ways he has taught me to be present.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to use the Most Important Thing Test as a way to check in with ourselves and practice mindfulness

• What the difference and similarities between mindfulness and meditation are

• How the test helps us be gentle and stop mentally beating ourselves up

• How to use the test to identify if something is even important

• How when we don’t acknowledge our feelings we spend all of our time trying to ignore them

• And how acknowledging our feelings is much easier than we are making it out to be

Some of the research and resources mentioned:

• Name Your Values Worksheet

• Fred Rogers Acceptance Speech - 1997

+ Read the Transcript

Have you ever sat in a movie theater and been blown away by one quote. One little line just floats into your brain and holds on for dear life. There were a couple of those times as I sat in a darkened movie theater on Thanksgiving watching It’s A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, the Mr. Rogers movie with Tom Hanks, that came out end of last year. But there is one that stands out the most and is something I still think about multiple times a day. Lloyd Vogel is a cynical journalist who has been assigned to do a profile on Mr. Rogers calls Mr. Rogers to set up their first meeting, and he is shocked that Fred Rogers answers the phone, Not his assistant, not his handler, Mister Rogers himself. And when Lloyd suggests they set another time to talk because he knows that Fred has more important things to do right then, Mr. Rogers says, “What do you think is the most important thing in the world for me right now? To speak on the phone to Lloyd Vogel.” I audibly gasped as I heard that line. Thinking to myself, how often do I miss those conversations or moments because I am so busy moving on to the next thing or in my head worrying about what comes next.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

I think I have told the story of this scene in It’s A Beautiful Day at least 30 times since we saw it, and I think about it at least once a day. It is one way I bring myself back to whatever it is I am doing. The most important thing I am doing is whatever I am doing right now. I call it the Most Important Thing Test.

Almost all my clients have mentioned to me how hard this month is. For a variety of reasons, the darkness of January, the packing up of the holidays for another year, and the inundation of New Year New You messages. My goal this month is to give you different ways to think about this new year, new you crap, to change how you think of change and self-improvement. I wanted to do an episode about slowing down and being in the present moment, and one of our greatest teachers of this concept is Mr. Rogers. So I thought it would be fitting to do an episode about Mr. Rogers’s effect and some of the ways he has taught me to be present.

Let’s get back to the Most Important Thing Test. I have found this philosophy has helped me on two levels. One, when I am doing a task and my mind wanders, or I start beating myself up for not doing something else, I remind myself that whatever I am doing is the most important thing. I swear, every time I say this one phrase, a light bulb goes off in my head, my heart rate slows, and I take a deep breath and re-focus on what I am doing. I have experienced this while writing, at the grocery store, talking to my husband, spending time with family. Each time it brought me back to what I was doing and made that task 1000 times more fun—yes, even going to the grocery store. Because you know what, you are stuck at the grocery store, so you might as well immerse yourself in the experience. And fully being somewhere all in, completely present is amazingly better than being half in and half out.

The second way the Most Important Thing Test is valuable is it points out when you aren’t doing something important at all—for example, wasting time on social media or playing a game on your phone. There have been times that I am scrolling through social media, and I think, IS this the most important thing I am doing right now? Nope. Definitely not, and it helps me move on to something I would rather be spending my time on.

A 2-fold test. Helping you concentrate on one thing at a time and help you notice when you need to be moving on to another task.

At its root, what the Most Important Thing test is, is a way for you to check-in with yourself and practice mindfulness. Whenever I bring up the idea of mindfulness, the next question is inevitably, do you have a regular meditation practice? And my answer is no. If you have been following me over the years, you know I don’t have a regular meditation practice even though, yes, meditation is an amazing tool.

While we are on the topic of mindfulness and meditation, I want to clear up the difference and similarities between these 2 activities. And it starts with a Continuing Education Training I attended with Ronald Siegel, a psychologist, and renowned meditation expert. Not surprisingly, at one point, he had us practice meditation. I think it was only 15 minutes, and at the end of it, he asked how many people felt more stressed after the meditation. A few hesitant hands popped up around the crowd eventually as people looked around and saw they weren’t alone the more hands that popped up, and before long, almost every hand was up. And then he said something that made me gasp (just like the Mr. Rogers, Most Important thing quote) “meditation isn’t about reducing stress, meditation is about noticing your thoughts and building a relationship with yourself, so when you get stressed, you know your thought. How can it be stress-reducing if your thoughts are running around like a pile of puppies? The reason you meditate is to be able to recognize that your thoughts are a litter of puppies, they are constantly moving and jumping, and you don’t have to believe each and everyone.”

At that moment, I realized all my mini-mindfulness practices were doing the same thing, just in a different form. And that is why I love my mini-mindfulness practices because they give me that chance to see that my thoughts are like boxes on a conveyor belt, and I can choose to pick one up and obsess about it, or I can put it right back up on the conveyor belt and move on. The Most Important Thing test falls nicely into that mini-mindfulness idea, so when a thought comes in and interrupts my time with my nieces and nephews, I can say to myself, put it back up there because THIS is the most important thing right now.

Another mindfulness practice that Mr. Rogers celebrates is gratitude, my rule of gratitude is “always go deep, not wide.” And the practice that Mr. Rogers suggests was an amazing moment at the Daytime Emmy’s when he was given the Lifetime Achievement Award. During his acceptance speech, he stood up and said, “All of us have special ones who have loved us into being. Would you just take, along with me, ten seconds to think of the people who have helped you become who you are--ten seconds of silence.” And he stood there for 10 seconds in silence. I don’t know if you have ever stood still for 10 seconds staring at hundreds of people, but it is an incredible visual. This exercise is one I practice when I can’t sleep at night. I will lie in bed and name those who have helped shape me into who I am. I challenge myself to go as far back as I can and name as many people as I can. Inevitably when I practice this exercise, I feel not only appreciation but a sense of groundedness. Whenever you are feeling alone, overwhelmed, and like no one gets it, I encourage you to take 10 seconds and name all those who have loved you.

Ok, so back to the movie, It’s a Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, you know it is a good movie when there is more than one quote that permeates all the stuff in your brain and holds on for dear life. Near the end of the movie, Mr. Rogers says, “Anything that’s human is mentionable, and anything that is mentionable can be more manageable. When we can talk about our feelings, they become less overwhelming, less upsetting, and less scary.” Again I gasped in the theater. The truth to this message is bone-chilling; let me say it one more time:

Anything that’s human is mentionable, and anything that is mentionable can be more manageable. When we can talk about our feelings, they become less overwhelming, less upsetting, and less scary.”

So many of our worries, anxieties, fears become blown out of proportion because we are living in fear of mentioning them, but the minute we mention them, they become manageable. But for most of us, we let them swim around in our heads, thinking we are the only one in the world feeling this way and feeling more and more alone.

This idea of acknowledging our feelings is something I am going to be talking about more next month because it is the 2nd most important practice I have implemented to reduce my HFA (after mindfulness).

For too many years, I swallowed my feelings, pushed them down, boxed them up, and threw away the key. I was the queen of “fine” everything is “fine,” acknowledging that I was scared and worse, telling someone else just wasn’t in my repertoire. I realized (I admit begrudgingly) that this behavior of not acknowledging my feelings was hurting me because I was skating on the surface of life.

When we don’t acknowledge our feelings, we spend all of our time trying to ignore them. We engage in people-pleasing, perfectionism, hustling, to-do list management, not to mention numbing on food, alcohol, and our phones, all in a way to keep our feelings down. As Mr. Rogers said, anything mentionable is manageable, so if we aren’t mentioning our feelings, we aren’t able to move through them and engage with them. If I don’t share that I am sad about a promotion I missed at work and just ‘soldier on,’ I won’t ever be able to figure out why I didn’t get the promotion, what steps I need to take next and how I can engage differently at work.

I see it all the time in my clients in Coach in Your Pocket, they will vox me sharing the stress of the day, and they are litanying off their stress, naming all the things that went wrong, they are worried about or disappointed in. But they don’t name ANY feelings. They just talk about the story as if they were giving a news report without any depth. Acknowledging our feelings gives our life dept. Mentioning our feelings allows them to be dealt with in a healthy way.

We make acknowledging our feelings so much harder than it needs to be. It really is as simple as labeling our feelings. If you work with me, you will frequently hear me say, “pull out the feelings sheet,” and label how you are feeling. It isn’t hard or time-consuming, but it is challenging. It feels uncomfortable. But for now, just start noticing your feeling and labeling them. Remember,

“Anything that’s human is mentionable, and anything that is mentionable can be more manageable. When we can talk about our feelings, they become less overwhelming, less upsetting, and less scary.”

The last thing I want to mention about Mr. Rogers is that he worked for it. In the movie, the journalist Lloyd asks Mr. Rogers’s wife what it is like to live with a Living Saint, and she replies, “I don’t like that term because it makes what he is unattainable,” she says. “And it’s not.” She goes on to detail how much work he puts in to “stay grounded” each day — praying, swimming, and reading scripture. He’s the nicest man in the world, and he works for it.

He works for it. I think the danger is we look at Mr. Rogers’ slow, present, deliberate, focused, empathetic style, and we think it is unattainable. It was something he was born with. When in fact, he worked at it, he made it a minute-to-minute practice. He was not perfect. He was not a living saint. He was human, just like all of us, doing the best we can with what we have. I hope you will implement some of these practices into your daily life. They are a game-changer, AND I definitely recommend you go see the movie It’s A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is. But this isn’t how it is. The constant questioning, doubting, and rehearsing all while handling everything, checking stuff off the list, and “never letting them see you sweat.”

There is hope if you struggle with High Functioning Anxiety—it doesn’t have to be this way. You can reduce your anxiety and keep your edge. You can have less self-doubt and still get a ton done.

We have been sold the lie that our anxiety and our drive to succeed are the same thing. I have seen it in my clients over and over: when they learn how to quiet their anxiety, their passions and interests actually increase. They have new clarity that they never had before.

When I asked clients how they felt about their work via Coach in your Pocket, I was blown away. One of my clients illustrated how HFA affects all areas of our lives and that working with me via Voxer has improved all areas; She said,

“I started this work to feel less anxious. I had no idea how much it would improve my marriage, work, relationships with my kids, and health overall. I do less out-of-control emotional eating, have spoken up more at work, built a stronger connection with my spouse, and have learned how to react less emotionally to my kids.”

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9am - 6pm EST).

I have been doing this work for over 20 years, and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

---

Episode 115: Living Life True To Your Values

In today’s episode, I explore how values are the guiding principles on which everything else builds. And when we work to narrow down our list of values, we can use them to find what is most important to us. 

Today, I want to share a cautionary tale.

A few days ago I said to my husband:

“Maybe we should shake things up this year. Do something crazy. Sell our house, move to Hawaii… SOMETHING BIG.”

He looked at me blankly. “What about our families?” he asked. “What about our friends? What about your business? Besides, I like it here. I like our life. We do big things in little ways all the time.”

And it hit me–I had yet again got sucked into the New Year, New You crap– “When-Then Syndrome.” 

I had been reading the inspirational memes on social media–people planning on moving to exotic locations, quitting toxic jobs, losing weight, getting in shape–and my Inner Monger was getting louder and louder.

All of these promises of a new and perfect life were making me feel like I wasn’t enough–like I was missing out. 

I was getting drawn into comparing myself to all the people who were making BIG change and I was twisting it into a ‘you are not good enough’ mantra.

I was stuck in a cycle of comparisonitis.

I let that realization sink in for a bit: my instinct to make a big change or do something impulsive was really just a mental reflex to our New Year, New You culture.

But when I think about what I value most in my life–empathy, relationships, laughter, integrity, compassion–I can see that the life I lead is a reflection of those values. 

My nearest and dearest was right: I love our life.  

Yes, I wish we had more adventures. Yes, I wish we had fewer restrictions on our time. Yes, I wish this living intentionally, having self-compassion and empathy and showing up for life was a little easier. But overall, I love the messy imperfection that is my life. 

I love that I have a life based on my values, and when things get messy and confusing, I can come back to them and remind myself, yes, right now this is what I want for my life.

In today’s episode, I explore how values are the foundation of your life. They are the guiding principles on which everything else builds. And how when we work to narrow down our list of values, we can use them to find what is most important to us. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How naming your values is one of the best ways to bring yourself back to what is most important

• How when you can get honest with yourself and name your values, they will become the new standards of how you live your life

• How to narrow your values down to a list of 5 values that are unique to you

• How to let go of the guilt of not sharing someone else’s values so you don’t end up feeling numb, disengaged, and uninspired by life

• What to do when your values are seemingly in conflict with one another

• How to find help from your friends and family in holding yourself accountable to your values

Research and resources mentioned:

• Name Your Values Worksheet

• City Slickers – One Thing – YouTube

• Work with Me: Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

A few days ago, I said to my nearest and dearest, “Maybe we should shake things up this year…do something crazy…sell our house…move to Hawaii..I don’t know, just do SOMETHING BIG.”

Over the past week, I have been reading the inspirational memes on Facebook and blogs and was just feeling ‘meh’ about the whole thing. I was reading about all the big things people were planning to do…moving to exotic locations, quitting toxic jobs, losing weight, getting in shape, etc. As I kept reading, my inner bully/monger kept getting louder and louder. All of these promises of a new life, a perfect life, a better life made me feel less than and like I was missing out. Over the past week, I have been stuck in a cycle of berating myself, feeling not good enough, and a HUGE case of comparisonitis.

My husband’s response to my announcement, well, He looked at me blankly and said, “What about our families? What about our friends? What about your business? I like it here. I like our life, we do big things in little ways all the time.”

And then it hit me, I had yet again got sucked into all the New Year New You crap and the “When-Then Syndrome. “ I had been drawn into comparing myself to all the people who were making BIG change and had twisted it into a ‘you are not good enough mantra.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

I let that realization sink in for a bit: my instinct to make a big change or do something impulsive was really just a mental reflex to our New Year, New You culture.

So last night, after a wonderful evening of hanging on the couch and snuggling with our animals, I laid in bed and thought about my values. I thought about what I value most in my life:

Empathy

Relationships

Laughter

Integrity

Compassion

And I thought about how my life is a reflection of those values. My nearest and dearest was right, I like our life…no, I love our life. Yes, I wish we had more adventures. Yes, I wish we had fewer restrictions on our time. Yes, I wish this living intentionally, having self-compassion and empathy, and showing up for life was a little easier. But overall, I love the messy imperfection that is my life. I love that I have a life based on my values, and when things get messy and confusing, I can come back to those 5 things and remind myself, yes, right now, this is what I want for my life.

I tell this cautionary tale to show that we are all going to get snagged from time to time, even so-called experts on this subject :)

When I get snagged and thinking I need to blow my whole life up and make a BIG change. Naming my values is one of my favorite ways to bring me back to what is most important to me. I remember years ago watching the movie City Slickers. (Yep, I am totally dating myself here)

In the movie, Billy Crystal and his friends have gone on a vacation to a cattle ranch to help move the cattle from one ranch to another. Billy Crystal’s character is having a bit of a mid-life crisis and trying to figure out the meaning of his life. While there, he meets an old cowboy named Curly (played by Jack Palance). My favorite scene in the movie is when Billy and Jack are talking about the meaning of life. Jack says, “You know what the secret to life is?” and he holds up his finger. Billy says, “Your finger?” and Jack says, “No one thing, once you figure that out, nothing else matters. Billy says, “What’s the one thing and Jack says, “that’s what you have to figure out.” I remember seeing that scene in the theater, and I was blown away. Thinking of the simplicity of that. With my anxiety picking one thing is just TOO hard!! So today, I encourage people to pick 5 things. 5 Values.

What are values? As defined by the Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, a value is “something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable.”[i]

Values are the foundation of your life. Values are the guiding principles on which everything else builds. Values help you answer the question, What’s most important here? The values you choose and the definitions you give them are unique to you. Someone may share similar values to yours, but their definitions might be different.

Too often, we aren’t living by our values. We find ourselves caught up in the messages of our Monger, and we are doing what we think we should do or what so-and-so is doing. When we are living a life based on someone else’s values, we end up feeling numb, disengaged, and uninspired by our life.

In contrast, your Biggest Fan encourages you to live true to your values. Your values provide a simple, easy way to see the big picture and determine what is most important to you so you can take the next steps.

Your values are expressed in the decisions you make and the activities you choose. Imagine someone was silently observing your life:

What would they see you valuing the most?

Would they be able to tell what you valued most by looking at how you spend your time and with whom you spend it?

If you are living your life from your values, then the decisions you make and the commitments you engage in will support one of your top five values. Let’s say family is one of your top five values; then, your life decisions will revolve around supporting and engaging with your family. You won’t want to engage in activities or spend time with people who take you away from your family for a long period. Your family is consistently a priority.

If you value social change, you make everyday choices that inspire social change through the clothes you wear, the websites you visit, and the products you use. You may want to work in a job or support causes that encourage social change and work towards the social change you want to see.

If you value creativity, then you probably engage in activities that feed your artistic side, whether it is through drawing, painting, developing ideas, or writing. Expressing your creative side through either paid or unpaid activities will be a focus of your life.

The glitch comes when we value something, but we aren’t making choices around it. For example, you value family, but you are working all the time, so you miss important family events. Or you value creativity, but you never give yourself time to engage in artistic activities.

Only you can define what a value means for you. For example, many people value financial security. For one person, that could mean having just enough money to pay all the bills, while for another person, that could mean paying all the bills and having money left over to take as many vacations as they want.

When you can get honest with yourself and name your values, they will become the new standards of how you live your life. No longer will you be driven by external standards set by the Monger; now, you will have internal guides to chart your course.

Old Values/Other People’s Values

Growing up, you learned values from teachers, parents, clergy, and friends. Now, as an adult, you are entitled to your own values. Our Biggest Fan helps us get clear on and live out our values.

Our Monger loves to remind us of other people’s values. She loves to hold on to old values that belonged to our parents that might not be our values today. For example, maybe your parents found it important to go to church and religion was one of their values, but you value family, and Sunday mornings are the only time your immediate family has time to hang out, catch up, and bond so you don’t want to spend that time at church. That is okay. Remember, values and guilt don’t go together. Values aren’t shoulds. They are intentions that resonate with you and answer the question, What is most important here? You need to let go of the guilt of not sharing someone else’s values.

For example, your father values loyalty, so he worked at the same employer for 30+ years and encouraged you to do the same. However, maybe you value learning, and you have learned all you can from your current employer. Even though you have only been there for five years, you want to find another employer where you can continue to learn and grow. Recognizing this difference and knowing that you can make different choices and have different values is key.

Maybe you have outgrown a value. I remember in my 20s, I really valued social acceptance and would head out every weekend with my friends to see the latest movie just so I could say I had been there and done that. Today? I spend Friday nights quietly with my nearest and dearest or close friends, and the thought of facing the throngs of people to see the latest movie makes my skin crawl! It was great for my 20s, but now that I am almost 45, I value relationships more than I value social acceptance, and I would rather pass. Imagine if I listened to my Monger, who told me I should value social acceptance—I would be stressed out every Friday night.

Your top five values reflect you, not what you have been told to do or have been expected to do.

Conflicting Values

Our top five values may not be similar to each other and might be in direct conflict with each other. Rarely do all your values exist without a little conflict with each other. Here is where your Monger will be quick to come in and tell you how wrong you are and how you can’t live a life with values that aren’t similar. But your Biggest Fan is there to remind you that you can pull back and look at the big picture. You can include all your values; you just need to be more creative, not critical.

For example, maybe you value risk-taking, but you also value logic, so you are an auditor who bungee jumps. Or you value financial security and creativity, so you might be working a variety of jobs to fulfill both your creative outlet and your need for a secure future. You might work as a freelance writer to feed your creative side and have a job as a nurse to pay the bills. Or you value independence, but you also value socializing, so you need to be conscious and intentional about making sure you build quality relationships with others while also balancing your need for freedom, individuality, or autonomy.

Bottom line, we are happier when we live by our values, not what our Monger tells us we should be living by. After years of listening to your Monger telling you what you should be doing, listening to your own values will be challenging because your Monger’s message has become your default. Initially, you will need to remind yourself of your values as often as possible. Some of my clients have written their values down and framed them to display in their office. You can post them in your home, put them on your phone, and share them with your family. Accountability is helpful, so encourage your family to lovingly remind you of your values when they notice you are spinning out from a Monger attack.

In the show notes, you can download an exercise to help you name your values and see how they are playing out in your life.

It is SO easy to get snagged this time of year with all the new year new you messaging. The pressure is real, and the messages that IF you just changed this one thing, your life would be magically different. We WANT to believe that because it would be so much easier :)

It isn’t about not getting snagged; it is about how quickly you can regroup. Sometimes regrouping takes me days. Sometimes hours and sometimes minutes. The key is having the necessary tools to regroup and not get stuck in the “I am not good enough mantra.”

I believe–like Curly did in the movie City Slickers–when we come up with our one thing (or 5), it makes it easier to focus on what’s important in our lives.

---

High Functioning Anxiety can be at its worst around the New Year. Whether it’s your resolutions or everyone else’s, you can feel yourself regularly cycling through scripts that tell you you’re not good enough unless you’re flawless, constantly available, and solving everyone else’s problems.

I’d love to help you embrace this new year with a fresh outlook, new tools, and--yes--a happier approach. I specialize in helping women like you living with High Functioning Anxiety to let go and make peace themselves.

Plus, coaching with me doesn’t have to take up tons of room in your already full schedule.

Here’s how it works:

First, we meet for an extended 90-minute session to uncover your stories and habits. You know, the ones that keep you stuck.

Then, you continue to work with me on-demand through an app that lets you leave a message for me any time you start to feel anxious or whenever you feel the Monger attack. I’ll get back to you with action steps for moving through the discomfort and finding peace. Plus, you’ll continue to meet with me for monthly sessions, too.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

---

Episode 114: Setting New Year’s Resolutions Without The Hype

In today’s episode, I am talking about why resolutions are so triggering and what the research shows for setting helpful resolutions.

Eating too much sugar? No problem! In January I will cut back.

Not working out? No problem! In January I will hit the gym.

Postponing our plans for change looks great under the glow of the holiday lights. But when we wake up each year on January 1st, hungover from too much celebrating, realizing with dread, that all of our plans for change in the New Year need to magically start RIGHT NOW, it is a very different story. 

All of the plans that we have been putting off until the New Year are suddenly very real and very pressing. We need to get it together and act before our Monger catches on.

The deadline had arrived.

For people with High Functioning Anxiety, the days leading up to the New Year are days full of possibility. Set the resolution, do the prep work, and, poof like magic, we will be different people. 

No wonder we are so depressed come the first week of January when we realize that the change we want is only going to happen with work and that the work is going to be hard. 

We were so focused on how amazing it would be once the change was done that we didn’t take into account what it would actually take to stop eating sugar or to work out every morning. We didn’t take into account the process of change.  

Throughout the month of January, we will be discussing this process of change with helpful tips and strategies for making small changes in your life without all the hype. 

Today we will be talking about why resolutions are so triggering and what the research shows for setting helpful resolutions. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why New Year’s can be very anxiety-inducing for people with High Functioning Anxiety

• What the research actually shows about making resolutions for change in the New Year

• What we can do about it once we know the research and identify our own tendencies

• 5 tips for not falling prey to the romance of New Year’s eve

• How to embrace this New Year with a fresh outlook, new tools, and--yes--a happier approach.

Some of the research and resources:

• Research by University of Scranton Psychology Professor John C. Norcross, Ph.D

  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2980864

  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11920693

• Research by Ayelet Fishbach, University of Chicago, and Kaitlin Woolley, Cornell University

  • https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/ayelet.fishbach/research/Woolley&FishbachPSPB.pdf

• Prelude to the Dance by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

• Work with Me: Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

I have always hated New Year’s. The whole event. New Year’s Eve, New Year’s Day. Drinking too much, feeling hungover, the parties, the pork, the sauerkraut. Everything about it I hated. And I never knew why.

Then I realized…

...it was the pressure.

For the month of December, I would quiet my Monger by saying, in January, I will make all these changes. ANYTHING she would criticize me about, I would respond by saying just wait until the new year.

Eating too much sugar? No problem, in JANUARY I will be a better person.

Not working out? No problem, in JANUARY I will be a better person.

I would spend the last week of December planning for all the magical changes I would make come January, I would be healthier, more organized, focused, and calm. Because Of course, I want to make all those changes while being calm and peaceful.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

For people with HFA leading up to the new year is the BEST. Full of possibilities, full of ideas, and a borderline delusional belief that we will magically be different people.

January 1st is the day we will finally make ourselves perfect.

So when I woke up on January 1st each year, I not only was hungover from too much celebrating now the deadline had arrived.

NOW I really needed to get my shit together before my Monger figured out that the new year wasn’t really magical. It is like the world’s worst hangover because one, you might actually be hungover from celebrating, and two, you realize all the expectations for change and motivation needed to start NOW.

One look at Facebook or Instagram, and it only gets worse. You’re bombarded by everyone’s New Year’s Resolutions and inspiring words of the year. It seems like the people who have it together only get it more together…

...and the rest of us? Well, the overwhelming message is, YOU ARE NOT OK AND YOU NEED TO BE SOMETHING ELSE. In other words, you MUST CHANGE in order to BE BETTER, and more importantly, ONCE YOU DO CHANGE, THEN YOU WILL BE HAPPY.

All these beliefs are like Cat-nip for those of us with HFA. The memes and messages make it look SO easy. Our BFFs make us believe that it will be magical: Have the desire to change, set the resolution, do the prep work, and poof like magic, we will be different people. It is like magic, the calendar will flip to January, and we will be different people. No wonder I was so depressed. Come the first week of January, I woke up to the realization that if the change was going to happen, I needed to do the work. AND the work was HARD. I was so focused on the outcome of the change how amazing I will BE once the change is done I didn’t account for what it would be like to ACTUALLY stop eating sugar or to work out every morning. I didn’t account for the process of change.

Happy New Year!! Welcome to 2020! All this month, we are talking about Resolutions. For people with High Functioning anxiety, this time of year can be VERY anxiety-provoking, so I want to bring that anxiety out into the open and talk about how we can do it differently.

In this episode, we will be talking about why resolutions are so triggering and what the research shows for setting helpful resolutions. Throughout the month, you will hear helpful tips and strategies for making small changes in your life without all the hype.

Let’s start with some research statistics. Now, I LOVE research, and research is something that gets misquoted and shifted to fit the expectations of the user. Resolution Research is a great example of this phenomenon. A commonly quoted stat is that the failure rate for New Year’s resolutions is said to be about 80 percent, and most lose their resolve by mid-February.

I saw that sentence quoted over and over in US World Report, Forbes, and numerous blogs. I had to really search to find the source of that quote. The stat is from Research by University of Scranton Psychology Professor John C. Norcross, Ph.D., internationally recognized as an authority on behavior change and psychotherapy.

In Norcross’s abstract, the actual stat is 77% of people maintained their pledges for 1 week and only 19% for 2 years. So the stat that is quoted is 80% of people fail on their resolutions is a bit more doom and gloom than the reality.

In reality, 19% keep their resolutions for more than 2 years, and those other 77% might keep them longer than one week! Norcross goes on to say that Fifty-three percent of the successful group experienced at least one slip, and the mean number of slips over the 2-year interval was 14. 14 slip-ups!!! 14 do-overs. Fourteen mess-ups, and that was the average which means there were more than 14 slip-ups.

Norcross also found that you are 10-times more likely to change the desired behavior if you make a New Year’s resolution than if you don’t.

According to his research, 46 percent of those making a resolution were successful at changing their target behavior after six months, compared to only 4 percent of adults desiring to change their behavior who did not make a resolution.

And the last bit of research to share is a meta-analysis (I had to look up what a meta-analysis is too, which means they use a statistical approach to combine the results from multiple studies) led by Ayelet Fishbach from the University of Chicago and Cornell University’s Kaitlin Woolley, looked at participants’ commitment to resolutions based on delayed vs. immediate rewards.” They found in layman’s terms that: people were less likely to commit to a goal that didn’t offer an immediate (or at least an immediately obvious) pay-off.

So what we have learned from research is:

Most people who set resolutions quit at them.

Those who are successful at their resolutions frequently mess up and then regroup. They make mistakes frequently.

You are more likely to change if you make an intention about changing. In other words, if you don’t try, you won’t change.

Change is easier when you have immediate gratification.

Now that we know the facts let’s talk resolutions and HFA.

As I shared in the beginning, those of us with HFA LOVE the IDEA of improving ourselves because, in our minds, we have LOTS to improve. The magical myth of new year’s is almost too much to resist. It is like catnip to us. The idea that with the turn of the calendar, all that we dislike about ourselves can be changed. Logically WE KNOW it isn’t true, I mean, we aren’t totally delusional, and yet it addicting.

Knowing the research and knowing that we are addicted to HFA, what can we do about it? How can we not fall prey to the romance of new year’s eve?

Here are my tips:

Be HONEST with yourself notice your tendency to romance New Year’s remember the quote, “wherever you go, there you are.” You are the same person you are now that you will be in February. You didn’t magically change on NYE, and you won’t magically change every.

Change is slow. All change requires baby steps. When you think you have a small step, break it down even smaller. Want to eat healthier? A small step would be to avoid sugar. A smaller step would be to avoid sugar after 7pm. Or avoid sugar after lunch. Do that for a period of time, and then when you have mastered it, make another SMALL change.

Celebrate. Celebrate the small changes. Your Monger will ALWAYS be critical that you didn’t do enough or didn’t do it right. But remember to celebrate the small victories.

You will MESS UP. As research shows, you will mess up. Every time you mess up, use it as a chance to re-calibrate. Do you need to make the goal smaller? Remind yourself that mistakes are part of change.

What if your change this year was to be more kind to yourself? Change is so much easier when we are doing it from a place of kindness. I am going to eat less sugar because I FEEL healthier, or I am going to walk every day because I feel better when I move my body?

I am going to leave you with excerpts from one of my favorite poems: Prelude to the Dance by Oriah Mountain Dreamer.

What if your contribution to the world and the fulfillment of your own happiness is not dependent upon discovering a better method of prayer or technique of meditation, not dependent upon reading the right book or attending the right seminar, but upon really seeing and deeply appreciating yourself and the world as they are right now?

How would this affect your search for spiritual development?

What if there is no need to change, no need to try and transform yourself into someone who is more compassionate, more present, more loving, or wise?

How would this affect all the places in your life where you are endlessly trying to be better?

What if the task is simply to unfold, to become who you already are in your essential nature - gentle, compassionate, and capable of living fully and passionately present?

How would this affect how you feel when you wake up in the morning?

What if who you essentially are right now is all that you are ever going to be?

How would this affect how you feel about your future?

What if the essence of who you are and always have been is enough?

How would this affect how you see and feel about your past?

What if the question is not why am I so infrequently the person I really want to be, but why do I so infrequently want to be the person I really am?

How would this change what you think you have to learn?

It’s all about kindness. If you can be kind to yourself, if you can allow yourself to make mistakes and mess it up and break those changes down to very small increments, resolutions work, they allow you to change, to grow, to become a different person.

But that doesn’t mean you have to be better. You are. Just where you are. And I know that’s impossible to believe with high functioning anxiety, but trust me, I’m going to repeat the quote again from Oriah Mountain Dreamer because it’s one of my favorites. What if the question is not, why am I so infrequently the person I really want to be, but why do I so infrequently want to be the person I really am?

---

High Functioning Anxiety can be at its worst around the New Year. Whether it’s your resolutions or everyone else’s, you can feel yourself regularly cycling through scripts that tell you you’re not good enough unless you’re flawless, constantly available, and solving everyone else’s problems.

I’d love to help you embrace this new year with a fresh outlook, new tools, and--yes--a happier approach. I specialize in helping women like you living with High Functioning Anxiety to let go and make peace themselves.

Plus, coaching with me doesn’t have to take up tons of room in your already full schedule.

Here’s how it works:

First, we meet for an extended 90-minute session to uncover your stories and habits. You know, the ones that keep you stuck.

Then, you continue to work with me on-demand through an app that lets you leave a message for me any time you start to feel anxious or whenever you feel the Monger attack. I’ll get back to you with action steps for moving through the discomfort and finding peace. Plus, you’ll continue to meet with me for monthly sessions, too.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

---

Episode 113: Managing the Long Road Of High Functioning Anxiety

In today’s episode, today I wanted to share the experience of living with High Functioning Anxiety from the perspective of one of my clients.

I can talk about the Voices In Your Head all day long.

I work with clients every day living with High Functioning Anxiety. I live and breathe this language and these techniques.

The Monger, the BFF, Your Biggest Fan–I literally wrote the book. 

But today I wanted to share the experience of living with High Functioning Anxiety from the perspective of one of my clients.

Michelle Steinhour came to me a few years ago consumed with self-doubt, insecurity and constant questioning. It was showing up in her marriage and in her work. She was looking for practical strategies that would help her feel less doubtful about herself.

I introduced her to my Coach in Your Pocket and Michelle has seen a big shift in her anxiety. But, as she reminds us in today’s episode, it’s a life-long process.

Michelle is in the trenches. She’s making the shifts and doing the work. She’s walking the path of the Happier Approach every day by listening in to the Voices In Her Head and reminding them who’s really in charge. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How Michelle manages her BFF and Monger.

• What she has done to encourage the voice of her Biggest Fan

• Some of the biggest changes she has seen since hearing from her Biggest Fan more often

• How the support from her spouse has made a big difference

• Why planning to have kids has made her love this work even more

• The Feelings List PDF

+ Read the Transcript

Intro: Michelle: I'm happy that I have more of a coping mechanism for my anxiety, because it was really running my life, 2, 3, 5 years ago. And now I feel like the anxiety is there. I'm living with it, but it's not running my life.

Nancy: Michelle came to me a few years ago, looking to feel less doubtful of herself.

She was consumed with self-doubt insecurity and constant questioning. It was showing up in her marriage and in her work. Today, she's doing the work and living the happier approach. She's listening in to the voices in her head and reminding them who is really in charge. But as she said, it's a lifelong process.

It's easy for me to talk about the voices in your head, the monger, the BFF, and your biggest fan. I wrote the book. I work with clients every day on practical strategies for living with high functioning anxiety. I live and breathe this language and these techniques, but today I really wanted to share Michelle, in her own words, she's in the trenches and walking the path of the happier approach every day.

Your listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Recently Michelle started working with me via my coach in your pocket and has seen a big shift in her anxiety. I wanted you to hear her very human story, someone that is in the trenches, making the shifts and doing the work.

Michelle and I talk about how she manages her BFF and her monger, how having support from her spouse has made a huge difference. The biggest changes she has seen since hearing from her biggest fan more often, and why planning to have kids has made her love this work even more.

Michelle. I'm so excited to have you here. Thanks for taking the time to come and chat with me. I wanted to get a real life person's perspective on the three characters that we've been talking about this month. And so the first one we're going to start with, logically, is the monger and I know you have a special name for your monger.

Michelle: yes, I do. I had almost forgotten about that actually. Yes, that wonderful. My friend, the monger, I call her Gerdy. yes. I don't know why, but it just came to me one day. I was like, she sounds like a Gerdy, just, yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah, so I don't, yeah, just that like pesky little voice that just comes up and yeah.

And Gerdy just fit it. I'm like, oh, darn it. Gerdy you little, just one of those voices. I'm like, no, not again Ugh. Beat me down. So yeah, that's the name for her?

Nancy: I love that. So tell me, how does Gerdy show up? Can you give me an example from recently,

Michelle: I teach classes in the evening sometimes which is super fun.

And actually recently probably the most recent example where Gerdy was just like, oh no, Michelle you suck. Like you're just, you're not going to come out from this. Was I was teaching class and we give surveys to our students to see how the class is going. See if they like it, if they hate it. If they're feeling challenged unchallenged and so my boss emailed me and I teach with a couple other people.

So emailed the group and said Hey, thank you for doing the surveys. We got the surveys back from the students and a couple of them are feeling unchallenged and are not really liking the class. I just wanted to have a meeting with y'all to see if there was some way we can brainstorm to challenge those kids.

And Gerdy told me, she was like, oh no, Michelle, you suck. Like you haven't been doing enough in class, your lesson plans stink, your collaboration, stinks with these teachers. Like all of it is just terrible because these surveys came back. Like you should just hide in a hole and not teach again. And that was genuinely the reaction I have when I read this, I was like, oh my goodness.

And the words were pretty much what I said, just Hey, is there some way we can brainstorm challenging them more. My boss wasn't mad. It was just a statement. And I, all of a sudden was bawling on the couch, reading this email,

Nancy: (Laughing), I'm laughing in understanding, not laughing at you.

Michelle: (laughing) Yes, I appreciate that. Then, my husband walks in and he's what's going on? I'm like, I just got this email. Oh, I don't know what to do. And he was like, okay let's take a step back here. Let's not think so black and white yeah. What can we do, what do you think might help these students in this class?

And, yeah, so that was really helped me step out a little bit where I'm like, all right. Gerdy. Yeah. Now this is just one class, just a couple surveys. But yeah, but it happens so quickly for me, at least that sometimes I don't even know, that the voice is turned up so loud for me.

Until I'm bawling on the couch and I'm like, wait a second.

Nancy: Yeah. I know that Isaac, your husband is, has become a big help to you in, and I think spouses really can be and helping us pull back the blinders, so to speak. How has that. How has that evolved? How have you guys, grown together?

Michelle: Oh yes. I am not going to lie in the beginning. It was awful. Cause I was just so far down in the hole and the rabbit hole of the monger that I just couldn't even come out. And sometimes in the beginning when he would say kind things are like, Hey, let's think this through. Or what if this, I would just be like no, Isaac, you're wrong. How dare you not say that I suck too. Side note: never say that husbands (Laughing)

Nancy: (Laughing) that's a cardinal rule.

Michelle: But yeah. And then so slowly with The work that I guess I have been doing with the Monger noticing her voice more and asking Isaac for what I need a lot of times too.

We have gotten into this groove where both I recognize it more and he recognizes it more. And I think I've helped him along that path of saying, “Man, I just really like I think this is the monger.” And I would explain Gerdy to him and he's oh, okay. Okay.

So now like I would point it out to him and he can recognize it along with me a little bit. And that's taken a while too. It's not oh yeah, day one. And now it's been years. But now we're on such a better groove where he says, “Hey, like you definitely don't suck. This is the monger. Let's not look at it in black and white and you're doing this great and that great.”

And I can finally also listen to him much better and be like, “oh, okay. Yeah. You're right. Let's consider that instead of totally shutting them out. “

Nancy: Yeah. Because I think it's you so want to believe what the Monger's saying that sometimes it's hard to get that perspective.

Michelle: Yes, Yes because it makes so much sense in the moment.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. And it was interesting. I did a presentation a few months ago and. The spouse, came up to me and said, my wife has a Monger. That's so loud. And he's said, “I look in the mirror and I see myself and I'm like, yeah, you look pretty good. and I'm overweight and short., I know I have some issues.” he said, “but I look at my pretty good, you did a good job with what you have and she looks in the mirror at herself and she only sees bad. She would never look in the mirror and say, it looks pretty good.”

Oh. And he said ,”that's just so foreign to me.”

And as someone who always looks in the mirror and, doesn't say it looks pretty good. I was like, oh, what would that be like to look in the mirror and to think. You look pretty good.

Michelle: Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. I do think about that with other people too.

Cause I'm like, oh my gosh. I would never tell so-and-so Ugh. yipes. It's such a foreign concept to be just as loving to ourselves as we are to our spouses and friends, Yeah, so that, yeah, that's difficult. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay. So one of the things, one of the ways, and you know this already, but one of the ways the monger shows up is, or we can recognize, we know the monger's playing there is when we have a 10 reaction to a two situation.

Michelle: Yes. Sorry. I laugh because for the longest time I had no idea. I was like, no, I'm totally not having a 10 reaction, but anyway, that's why I laugh.

Nancy: So the question is given that is something that I know you've worked on a lot can you give us an example of that? Just any time you've had a 10 reaction to a two situation.

Michelle:. Oh man, I am not going to lie. It happened today where I was like,

maybe I'm not the best person for this interview.

Nancy: That's awesome not for you, but it's awesome that you recognized it.

Michelle: Yes, I did. And it took me. Pretty much half the day. It started at the beginning of the day. So I guess, long story short this Christmas party at work change days.

So there were some people that couldn't make it one day. And they were like, Hey, can you do a Wednesday instead? And I was like, oh, No I have something that evening. Let me try to move it. I think there'll be okay if I try to get out of this thing I had in the evening, but I'm not sure. Let me text three people and ask them, let me text my husband and see what he thinks.

And it was all about this Christmas. And I was just legitimate freaking out. I couldn't do my work today. I was just so unfocused and just worried about, should I miss the Christmas party? Should I miss this other commitment in the evening that I had? I'm not sure. And then all of a sudden, the middle of the day, I was like, wait a second.

This is a Christmas party. This is one day. And you just went through all the list of I'm sure either way it happens that if I end up having to miss this prior commitment, I'm sure they'd understand. And vice versa. If I was like, really, they can't find another person I have to be there.

It's all gonna be okay. But I had to laugh at the end of the day. I was like, oh my goodness, this is just one evening. And it's for some sort of Christmas, it's not even like a. A crazy thing. Yeah, so it took me all day, but I pulled out of it. Yeah. So it's just funny how those get us though, that it's oh my gosh, this is such a huge deal.

And I think we talk about the like high energy a lot and all day it's just that high spinning energy.. I think that's why I stayed in it first or why I tend to stay in the 10 reactions so long. Cause I feel like we love the feeling of that, go and constantly turning and ah and then when I finally accepted, I was like, either way, it's going to be fine.

There was just that moment of silence and calm. I was like, yeah what is there to think about now? I have to go back to my word. Yes.,

Nancy: yeah. Cause that is the benefit of that high energy is that it keeps you here. Spinning and thinking and who should I call and what should happen and did a lot.

And so it's, so the drama, yes, it really is. And to recognize that you're in the drama. It is challenging.

Michelle: Yes. And I have to attribute that to just practice too. I've even gotten my husband on board with that where he's says, “I'm pretty sure this is a 10 reaction and I'm going to give you that it's maybe a three or four problem.”

Like we have that lingo. Which is totally awesome

Nancy: . Yeah. Cause that can be challenging for the spouse to say, I think this is a 10 reaction because sometimes you're so into it. You're like, no, this is NOT. (laughing)

Michelle: . Yeah. (Laughing) Some days are definitely better than others where I'm like, no, shut up. You're wrong,

Nancy: ,God love them.They're treading on thin ice with they approach that. But my husband does it to me too so REALLY!?! Is this really that important. And sometimes it can come out at them, at our spouses that we can have the 10 reaction to something they did. I'll do that a lot.

I use this example a lot. My husband doesn't consistently clean ALL the dishes in the sink. He has some idiosyncrasies around dishes let's say, and it really doesn't bother me, but it will become a 10 reaction.

If there's something else bothering me, I will totally take it out on the fact that he doesn't do the dishes. That will be the thing I get frustrated about

Michelle: Oh yes. Oh, you know what? That makes me feel so much better though, because poor Isaac, honestly, I have the same. If something is funky or I'm having anxiety about something unrelated. I'll be like, you know what? I just can't do everything around here. Isaac, I'm vacuuming. And nothing was dirty. Nothing was, we didn't need anything cleaned, but yeah, I totally get that.

Nancy: Yeah. So the hard part about recognizing the 10 reaction to a 2 situation is then to ask “well what's really going on. What's really underneath this the hopped up energy? And so that's where I think that is a harder oh, you harder thing to do, like it's because then you really got to get clear and start facing what's going on. Start facing. Yeah.

Michelle: The toughest part acknowledging. Yes, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay. So the next character that we talk a lot about is the BFF, and that seems to be the hardest one for people to really identify. They know when I describe it, everyone's oh yeah, totally. I totally get what you're talking about, but when you're in everyday life, it's hard to pick out.

Do you agree with that? I

Michelle: I do agree cause I, I think for the longest time I was that way as well until I think, I can't remember this specific moment, but there was a specific moment that I was like oh, this is the BFF. It finally clicked. And I was trying to think of another moment that was similar.

For me, that, that comes up like, The BFF comes up. And I thought again at this whole email thing while I was crying on the couch all of a sudden this voice popped in and was like, It's not your fault. It's those other teachers faults. Like they definitely should be stepping it up and they should be contributing more.

And you know what?. And so actually the BFF for me, I know when I'm in that voice when I get really judgy of other people and start naming the reasons that things are, the way they are and in a very spiteful way. I feel like that's a big key to the BFF.

Whereas if I talk to my husband, he'll be like don't be too hard on yourself because this is something extra that you added. You don't have as much time to commit to it is as you want it to. Or things like that. Whereas my BFF would be like, you know what, it's definitely those other people and you know what?

We have too many students in the class anyway. And that's the problem when it's that's not the problem at all.

Nancy: I think that challenge of the BFF is that for a lot of people. And that's why I include her in the book for a lot of people. She is their voice of compassion. You're like the idea of suddenly being like, oh wait, that isn't a good voice.

That voice doesn't have the best intentions for me when, before that was how we got compassion.

Michelle: I'm so glad you do include her in the book. Because, yes. I think the only thing that really tipped me off to her was that I still felt crappy afterwards. And I was like, man, I have named all of these reasons why I am amazing and everybody else sucks.

No, I'm just kidding, but yeah. Yeah. And I still was like, man, this still didn't solve, like I still have anxiety. I'm still worried about this. And I think that was the only thing that really tipped me off to wait a second. And then when you gave her a name, I was like, oh my goodness. Now it's clicking that both of those voices like when they come in together, usually for me that they both just try to, out play each other. I guess the monger and the BFF. Yeah, the monger and the BFF for me, like the monger gets really loud and then the BFF gets really loud and calms me down. But then, yeah, just that black and white thinking, I guess just gets amplified.

And then it's wait a second. Nobody wins here. I'm not feeling like a winner.

Nancy: Because that's what I think is fascinating. The longer I've done this, work with the happier approach, the more I realize it is an energetic thing. Yeah. Because something you and I have been working on is how energetically. You're like, everything's wow, it's really stressful. I don't know what I'm going to do this I am just overwhelmed. And there's just so much going on and, oh my gosh, it's just so exhausting. And, but your voice is way up high and talking, animated fill in the blank.

You could be saying. It's a beautiful day and sunny and gorgeous, but the words coming out of your mouth are negative. The tone is the same as is positive. And so I think, like you said, when your BFF and your monger are talking, you don't feel good. Yes.

Michelle: Yeah There's just that spinning energy and you're right.

That has been something that I've been really trying to work on. Cause I. Very much a oh, everything's fine. Yeah. I got this going on and that, but everything's really good. I'm grateful. I'm saying all the stressors and then yeah, and then later I'm like trying to express my feelings and I just can't because I just keep going oh everythings up here..

And to take it down and really really figure out what's going on and really dealing with those feelings. And that feeling sheet that you have also really helped me it gave me a tool for digging into those feelings and really acknowledging what was going on without judging it too.

Which is just so hard.

Nancy: Yes. Especially when you first start, I think. Yeah. Not judging the feelings is challenging because it's new. I think the pattern is you always want to be able to justify the feeling like I don't, I'm feeling angry. I shouldn't be feeling angry.

Why am I feeling angry? There's nothing to be angry about. Or I'm feeling sad about that letter from my boss about the theater, And to be in the class your teaching and then to be like, I shouldn't feel sad? What's the big deal.?Like we talk ourselves out of it instead of allowing it

Michelle: right.

Yes. Which, and it does like we just don't want to have that pain. Like we don't want to go there cause it does. I mean it hurts. It's painful, it's difficult. But definitely with this work, I. have found through the practice that I would rather go there now because of the long-term effects. I feel like just now in my life, I am able better able to handle those feelings because I know how to process them better through practice.

It really is a huge long-term effect with this work that I'm so grateful and that's what keeps me going through, like trying to choose the okay, let's sit down and just acknowledge what's happening here. Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes a lot of sense

Nancy: .What do you do to call in your biggest fan? And it doesn't have to be ask,

Michelle: oh man,

Nancy: Sometimes people have a different way of doing that. And so I'm just curious and if it is ASK, that's great. But if you have a different things, you do what would that be?

Michelle: I know I guess there are a couple of things throughout the years that I'm like, okay, I know I calmed down when I do this, usually taking a walk is a huge thing for me.

And I'm by myself, like taking a walk outside by myself really helps me drop into my body and yeah, getting my body moving for some reason just really helps. With the whole spinning of the mind for me, I don't spin out as much and I can drop down more into my heart and hear that voice of Hey, that sucks that the email, that some kids are not having a good time and are feeling unchallenged like that really sucks.

And let's sit down with our boss and brainstorm a couple ideas. So yeah, taking a walk, getting moving like that really does help for me. And. I'm an introvert. I have to say that up front. But also just sitting in silence, having some really just good white space for me helps me hear that voice a lot better too.

And I don't know if this is okay to say, but my faith is a big part of my life. So God is a big part that I feel like he really helps guide me in that voice of the biggest fan. I have this inner peace too. Which is, it's hard to explain. I always, when I bring that up, I feel like people are like, oh gosh, she's crazy.

But I do have this. I feel like people know it when they feel it, but just my chest tightens a lot when I get anxiety and I get a little bit short of breath. So when I call in that biggest fan voice I do feel my chest drop. I feel like I'm taking deeper breaths. Just my whole chest feels calm and looser, and that, I feel like that starts at least with me with my faith. And God, like I'll talk to God and and that will start to loosen my chest and I'll be like, okay. Things are. Okay. So that's how it plays out for me, at least. I don't know if I described that very well, so yeah, that and the walking that's how I get into my body and silence.

For me just having some silence where I'm not doing busy work Even I can get into that trap around the house where I'm just doing dishes and laundry and oh, I'll think of something else to do in that and that, and I just never sit down and process my feelings. I don't even, I'm like, ah, just to have that silence and sit is really good for me.

And I can hear the biggest fan a lot better than.

Nancy: I think it is such an energy. Even when you were describing the sitting on the couch and how, I that was such a great example of how the monger is you suck, you're terrible. This is, it's all your fault. And then your BFF steps in to be like no, it's everyone else's fault.

Or they've put too many people in the classroom or it's this and this. And then your biggest fan can step up to say, Yeah, there are too many people in the classroom. Yeah. There might be issues with the other teachers and we can figure this out by talking to her and see what she has to say.

Cause she's not threatening us. We're just trying to figure this out.

Michelle: Yes. Yes. That's. Yeah. And that's exactly. I had to go through like the crying. And then, yeah, and then that judgment of everybody else. And then I was like, wait a second. And now with all this practice, I'm like, wait a second. That doesn't really sound right either.

Like with the recognizing the BFF. And then, as soon as I say wait a second, That's not right either. Like that story doesn't really make sense. Then I'll be like, wait a second. I'm like, yeah. There's parts of that story. That makes sense. Yeah, there's a little bit of, maybe we have too many people in the class.

And then that kind of gets me brainstorming yeah, with the biggest fan, yeah. And maybe I can do a better job with collaborating with the other teachers, with the lesson plan. And this still really is hard and it sucks. And maybe I need to ask for help more. And, we were rushed because the technology in the room didn't work and, things like that, that, yeah.

I feel like helped me get to the biggest fan.

Nancy: I do want to hear. If someone's just starting this work, so go back in your brain to when you were just starting, what would be like three tips or however many you want to give to someone to, to help them?

Michelle: Man, that's such a good question.

Gosh, I don't know if this is a tip, but gosh, it always just sucks in the beginning. That's why I think if I would go back and tell myself. Something, I would definitely say Hey, this is a long road. This is not I think you would tell me this and other people would be like it's not going to happen like tomorrow.

And, but I think in the beginning I still believed it would now years later, I'm like, oh yeah, I, this is life man. This is just. This is how it rolls. Like I think we get better at coping with it. And I think your book does an amazing job at giving, us coping strategies and different ways to hardwire our thinking.

And that's. Practice for life is probably the first and second thing. I don't know. It was I had a really big journey I can in the middle of this big journey was a small journey of me really accepting myself .I don't even quite remember how it all came about, but there were a lot of things that I was doing because the monger was just really making me hustle and think that I should be doing things.

And so it's been really exciting to watch myself let go of some of those things that the monger has pushed me and all of these rules that Gerdy has given me. So it's been really. Awesome. I just feel more myself now than I ever have before, which is really awesome.

And I didn't expect that from this work. And then thirdly, it's been really helpful to have somebody to, to work with. I've had you and Isaac has been a huge part of this. I think finding someone to help you find those voices is really important.

Talking to someone and I'd be like, man, I suck at this and that. And they're like, That doesn't sound right. I don't think you suck. And then solely I'd be like, oh my gosh, that's Gerdy again. Oh yeah. I don't really suck at that. So that has been really really powerful and I so appreciate all those people in my life who have helped me out with it.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I totally, I think you can't do this without having someone there pointing it out to you or being able for you to double-check it with

Michelle: right. Yes, I think that is huge

Nancy: Because I think that's, what's so powerful about the Voxer work. Yeah, that it's in real time, you can be checking out that voice instead of a waiting to come into the office.

And it's three weeks later and you've, you've had 50 other Mongo attacks, so who really cares

Michelle: and they're all the same.

Nancy: right?

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think one other thing I would, that was just huge. The long-term effects of this work Anxiety was pretty much just running my life.

Like the hustle was just running my life 2, 3, 5 years ago. And now with this work and with the different voices, I feel like anxiety is there, but it's not running my life. Now I have my life and anxiety comes up and now I can deal with it. Instead of that was my life was the anxiety. Yes. Just all the time.

Yeah.

Nancy: The thing that's amazing is I know you guys are, in the next couple of years, hoping to start a family and that, so often I see clients who are doing this work because they see the anxiety in their kids. And so that you have somewhat figured out before you have kids.

And so raising them, you can help them decipher this stuff is, cause genetics. No offense, your kids are probably going to have anxiety,

Michelle: poor, little darlings.

Nancy: And so maybe Isaac's genetics will win out and it won't be, it won't be the case, but that you have these skillsets in place to teach them. It's just such a victory for you to put, to not really passing this down to the next generation in this, with the same skill sets.

Michelle: That's true that I remember you did say that to me one day and that really hit me cause I was like, wow, I can, I really actually do feel like I'm capable to help them through the navigating that anxiety, which is amazing. I don't think I ever would have said that phrase, a year ago. Yeah. So it's, that's really amazing. Very cool. Cool.

Nancy: Okay. We wrapped up that last little bit in, in good time. So thank you so much for doing this and sharing your personal experience.

I know that's not always easy. And so I really appreciate you being vulnerable enough to hop on here with us and just thank you for having me.

Michelle: You are so welcome.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 112: The Voices In Your Head–The Biggest Fan

In today’s episode, I am talking about the Biggest Fan. Your Biggest Fan always has your back and is wise about the struggle. Your Biggest Fan is the how. She is the one who will help you achieve your goals and be happier. 

This month we are talking about the 3 characters that chat at us throughout the day and are at the There is a voice in your head. 

She is the voice of kindness, generosity, and wisdom and I call her the Biggest Fan.

Of the 3 characters that are at the core of the Happier Approach, she is the best of all worlds. 

She holds the goals of your Monger (to be safe and secure) without shaming and belittling you. She provides the support and encouragement of your BFF (“you are awesome”) without giving you a free pass to do whatever you want.

Your Biggest Fan always has your back, acknowledges your feelings, can see options, is wise about the struggle, and uses your values as guiding principles. 

Your Biggest Fan is the how. 

She is the one who will help you achieve your goals and be happier. 

All this month we have been talking about the voices that carry on in your head. If you haven’t already, go back and take a listen:

• In Episode 110 we talked about how the Monger, that mean voice that shames and belittles you, telling you that you’re not good enough.

• In Episode 111 we talked about how the BFF has an amazing talent of always being able to justify any behavior and how she shames and belittles other people in your defense.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to identify the kind voice of the Biggest Fan even when you don't think you have one inside you

• What steps you can take to access the voice of your Biggest Fan

  • Acknowledge what you are feeling

  • Slow down and get into your body

  • Kindly pull back to see the bigger picture

• What some of the challenges of accessing our Biggest Fan can be

• How the voice of your Biggest Fan has been silenced for a long time and how she will become louder as you listen to her more and more

• How to be gentle with yourself and identify that the success you want is a learning process

+ Read the Transcript

With tears in her eyes, Sarah walks out of the conference room and makes it to the bathroom just before the waterworks begin. My boss just screamed at me in that meeting. I knew the project was behind, but I didn’t think we were THAT behind. How did I miss it? I spent all week organizing customer feedback. I didn’t realize he wanted us to be writing the copy already!

It doesn’t take long before the inner voice of her BFF has her back. “Come on, girlfriend, your boss is such a jerk. I mean to publicly call you out like that is just rude.”

Sarah says to herself, I need to hear from my Biggest Fan. She starts with:

Sweet Pea, stop torturing yourself! This is so hard. Doing it wrong sucks, especially when you thought you were doing it right! I get it that you are scared you might lose your job. That is understandable after getting yelled at. It is just embarrassing and humiliating to be yelled at in a staff meeting.

Let’s take some deep breaths. It’s okay to cry; getting yelled at in public is the worst. Let it out, and then we can figure out what comes next.

This is totally avoidable. Next time, let’s double-check (even triple-check) with him on what is his top priority. I know it is annoying (and let’s admit it, sometimes scary) to double-check, but it’s better than this feeling right now. Your co-workers get it. They have been called out before too. And truthfully, getting fired is probably a bit extreme. Go talk to your boss, clear the air, and figure out next steps.

See how her Biggest Fan helps Sarah find the middle ground? Her Biggest Fan is kind and understanding but also wants her to do her best and succeed. She isn’t enabling. She isn’t belittling. She is just there, a kind, wise, motivating voice.

She is the best of both worlds, self-compassion, and motivation. She is 100 percent kind and wants you to be the best version of you. Maybe even a version you can’t see yet.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

This Month we are talking about the three characters that chat at us throughout the day and are at the core of The Happier Approach. Today, we are on the last character, the voice of Kindness and Wisdom; I call her the Biggest Fan.

Your Biggest Fan is the key to quieting your Monger. She is the one who will help you achieve your goals and be happier. Your Biggest Fan is the how. She is kind, generous, and wise and always has your back. She’s the best of both worlds. She holds the goals of your Monger (to be safe and secure) without the shaming and belittling, and she provides the support of your BFF (“you are awesome”) without the free pass to do whatever you want.

Your Biggest Fan is the voice that says,

“You are having fun. Slow down and take a breath. Do you really need another drink? You have been kicking butt on your workouts this week. You want to get up and work out tomorrow, and you feel so much better when you work out. You can stay and have fun without drinking more, so you won’t be hungover tomorrow.”

“Yikes, that is totally scary that your boss called you in tomorrow. Take a breath and do a quick stretch. It will all be okay; no matter what happens, we will figure it out. Let’s do some brainstorming. How can we best prepare for that meeting?”

Your Biggest Fan has this wonderful combo of kind, wise, and honest (sometimes brutally so).

As a simple reminder:

Your Monger shames and belittles you.

Your BFF shames and belittles other people in defense of you and has the amazing talent of always being able to justify any behavior.

Your Biggest Fan always has your back, acknowledges your feelings, can see options, is wise about the struggle, and uses your values as guiding principles.

The #1 thing I hear from clients when I discuss the Biggest Fan is, “I don’t think I have one of those.” Let me be the first to say that you do have a Biggest Fan. Trust me. Even when you don’t think you do, you do. You have that voice inside of you that wants you to succeed.

Your Biggest Fan is probably quiet right now, which is why you might think you don’t have one. She has been ignored for so long that her voice is meek, but over time, as you listen to her more and more, she will become louder and louder.

I have found 3 steps that work to access your Biggest Fan Voice. The first step is to acknowledge what you are feeling. This is so important because when we have HFA, we tend to ignore our feelings. We ignore our experience because we tell ourselves we SHOULD feel a certain way. By Acknowledging our feelings, we are starting to build that self-loyalty which is so important to decreasing anxiety AND decreasing the voice of our Monger.

Feelings can be a tough subject. There are a lot of preconceived ideas around feelings and how we should or should not experience them. We have A LOT of judgment around feelings, good feelings, bad feelings, positives, and negatives. That is why this step is simply to acknowledge your feelings. Not judge them, justify them or determine whether or not they are okay.

Frequently throughout the day, I will say to myself, what are you feeling? And then, I will pull out the feelings sheet (attached) and name 7-8 feelings. I always have the tendency to judge them, so I will repeat to myself, you ARE feeling this way, it is what it is. For much of my life, I willed myself to feel a different way, or more likely, my Monger willed me to feel a different way through belittlement and shame. Giving myself permission to just label the feeling and acknowledge it has made a HUGE difference in building loyalty with myself and hearing from my Biggest Fan.

The reason Acknowledging what you are feeling is the first step is because it is a bit of an intellectual exercise. When you hear your Monger (or BFF) talking to you, and you are in a frenzy of drama or shame, the LAST thing you want to do is slow down and get into your body, you WANT to stay in the frenzy so acknowledging what you are feeling is just a small way to break through that frenzy and calm yourself a little bit.

Which brings me to the next step, which is: Slow down and get into your body. On this one, I encourage you to do a full-body movement, dance, wiggle touch your toes. Just taking a deep breath or sitting up straighter won’t cut it. You need to break the frenzied mind, and the ONLY way to do that is to move your WHOLE body. Those of us with HFA spend too much time in our heads, to the point where we forget we have a body. The number of times I practice this step and remember, oh yes, I actually have a body is incredible to me.

And the 3rd step, Kindly Pull Back to see the Big Picture.

The key part of this is kindly. Too often, when we pull back, we get lost in a sea of judgment. Our Monger tells us, “You are doing it wrong,” “You will fail,” “There are too many options.” We get wrapped up in justifying or proving why we are feeling a certain way. So when we pull back kindly, we are giving ourselves lots of love and wisdom. Pulling back kindly and being open to all the options allows us to move beyond the traps of the Monger and find solutions that will move us forward.

This last step is where the Biggest Fan shows her kindness and wisdom. So what does this look like, you might be wondering? Here are some signs:

Our Biggest Fan doesn’t use shame and belittling when looking at options. There is no “should” or “other people do it” in her vocabulary.

She always has our best interests at heart. She is kind, not judgmental, and she doesn’t lead us down a path that will hurt us eventually (like our BFF might).

This final step in the process is what separates the voice of the Biggest Fan from the Monger and BFF. Because our Monger keeps us stuck in a tunnel of absolute thinking, we have blinders on to any other options. The first two steps, A. Acknowledge what you are feeling and B. Slow down and get into your body, allow us to give ourselves empathy and get into our bodies long enough so we can pull those blinders off and do the final step. During this final step, we can look around and see all we have missed. We can see all the choices and options we have. If we jump to this step immediately, we might not have our blinders completely removed. We might still be blinded by the Monger, so the options and choices we brainstorm won’t be as varied.

Make it a game. See how many options you can brainstorm. As you limit the judgments in your head, you will be amazed at how many ways you can solve a problem.

Again, the three steps of ASK:

Acknowledge what you are feeling: When the Monger tries to shame and belittle you, the Biggest Fan acknowledges what you are feeling (e.g., you must be tired, scared, angry, sad, etc.). She labels your feelings and normalizes whatever your experience is.

Slow down and get into your body: When the Monger tries to speed you up and make everything more intense, your Biggest Fan allows you to slow everything down, encouraging you to take a break, pause, and breathe.

Kindly pull back to see the big picture: When the Monger just sees doom and gloom and engages in black-and-white thinking, the Biggest Fan sees lots of colors. She encourages you to think of different solutions, brainstorm, and see the other colors. We tend to be harsh on ourselves when we are looking for new solutions. As we shift from black-and-white to color, the Monger might step in more. That’s why doing it kindly is the key.

Sometimes we need an outside perspective to help us hear/see our Monger. Ask someone you love and trust—your spouse, your best friend, a sibling—to lovingly remind you when you are engaging in one of your myths, or you are being exceptionally harsh on yourself. This can be hard, so prepare yourself for lots of do-overs.

Having that outside help can make the process easier. I made a lot more progress when my husband lovingly mirrored how often I was trying to “do it right.” The more he pointed it out to me, the easier it was for me to see the habit, and the more frequently I could access my Biggest Fan.

Spend more time on accessing your Biggest Fan rather than listening for your Monger. Randomly throughout the day, do something physical, get into your body, and tap into your feelings.

For so many years, our Monger has convinced us she knows better, so initially, working with our Biggest Fan is going to take some trust. Being open to the idea that kindness can be motivating and shaming ourselves makes us more stressed and miserable is key.

Pretend that your whole life, you were told spinach was bad for you. Your mom hated spinach and didn’t want it in the house, so she told you that spinach was bad for you and never bothered to tell you differently. And then suddenly in your 20s, you hear spinach is good for you, and you are like, “What!?!” you can’t believe it. You do a lot of research, and everything you read says spinach is healthy. But when you first start eating spinach, it feels like you are going to die because your brain is telling you this is bad for you, even though you have done all the research and you know it might be different. But you have to go against your brain and trust it is good.

That is a tongue-in-cheek example, but it illustrates the point that our Biggest Fan is good for us, but we don’t trust her at first. Our Monger tends to be the first responder. She is always the loudest and quickest. One of my favorite mantras has become “First thought wrong.” When I hear my Monger chatting at me, I will say to myself, okay, first thought wrong! Then I will ASK to hear from my Biggest Fan.

Finally, go easy on yourself. You have spent your life being an overachiever, so your tendency is to overachieve on quieting your Monger as well. Remember, you are a work in process. The process just takes time.

Scenario: You binge-watch the Crown rather than working in the yard as you had planned.

Monger: You are such a loser. On top of being lazy, you can’t keep your word. You said you were going to do yard work. You already have the worst-looking yard in the neighborhood, and now you wasted yet another day doing nothing.

BFF: You work so hard during the week. You deserve to do nothing. Screw the neighbors—they don’t have lives anyway. All they do is take care of their yards. You have a life, and you know that there is more to the world than just keeping a pristine yard. Enjoy your day of nothing.

Biggest Fan: (A. Acknowledge what you are feeling) It is okay to be conflicted. On the one hand, you must have needed a day of nothing, and you did say you would take care of the yard. (S. Slow down and get into your body) Stand up and stretch, take some deep breaths. (K. Kindly pull back to see the big picture) The truth is, you love this show and being able to binge-watch is a special treat. Soak it up and enjoy! And the lawn does need to be mowed. You love driving past the house and seeing the yard look nice, so maybe tomorrow after lunch, you can just do some quick cleanup.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 111: The Voices In Your Head–The BFF

In today’s episode, I am talking about the BFF the voice we most often use to counter our Monger. Our BFF enables us to rebel against the voice of our Monger. When we get tired of our Monger criticizing us, we bring in our BFF for a little self-compassion.

This month we are talking about the 3 characters that chat at us throughout the day and are at the core of The Happier Approach. 

Last week we talked about the Monger–the mean voice tells us we’re not good enough. Today, we are going to talk about the voice we most often use to counter our Monger: the BFF

Our BFF enables us to rebel against the voice of our Monger. When we get tired of our Monger criticizing us, we bring in our BFF for a little self-compassion.

Our BFF is the one who always has our back. She is the type of BFF who is always willing to risk getting into trouble and is always there to defend us.

But she is not about holding our feet to the fire or keeping us accountable. 

She is very good at finding justification and someone else to blame. She is all about helping us feel special. She is kind and wants us to feel good about ourselves. In her mind, responsibility, accountability, and restraint do not apply. 

Listening to our BFF can be risky. Our BFF loves false self-compassion and uses it as a way to give us an excuse to just do whatever we want.

Our BFF can make us feel awesome, but she can lead to trouble.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Where our BFF shows up in our lives

• What Self-Compassion means to our BFF

• How the BFF isn’t really helping the situation or looking out for our best interests by stirring up drama with our Monger

• How to find the middle ground between “soldiering on” through the cruelty of our Monger and the false self-compassion of our BFF

• Previous Episode 110: The Voices In Your Head–The Monger

+ Read the Transcript

With tears in her eyes, Sarah walks out of the conference room and makes it to the bathroom just before the waterworks begin. My boss just screamed at me in that meeting. I knew we were late on deadlines, but I didn’t think we were THAT late. How did I miss it? I spent all week organizing customer feedback. I didn’t realize he wanted us to be writing the copy already!

Then she hears her old friend the Monger, “You are going to get fired for this mistake. Did you see how angry your boss was? You totally missed the boat on this one. How could you be so irresponsible? Funny that you stayed late to work on the customer feedback, and that wasn’t what was important. Yet again, you have your priorities mixed up.

It doesn’t take long before her BFF has her back. “Come on, girlfriend, your boss is such an A-Hole. I mean to publicly call you out like that is just rude. You had like five projects last week; how were you supposed to know that the copy was most important. They say communication is the key—where was the communication?!”

Her Monger is quick with a rebuttal, “You are the employee. It is your job to know when stuff is due. You should have asked, but you are such a wimp you were too afraid to ask.”

“Ha! Too afraid to ask. That is rich,” says her BFF, “you deserve to have some respect. You work your butt off around here, and for what? No one even tells you what is due when. It is so disrespectful. You are practicing compassion here, so you need to be kind to yourself and give yourself a break. He should have been clearer. He saw that you were working on the spreadsheet. Why didn’t he say something?”

“Come on. The bottom line, you messed up. You are going to lose your job. It’s as simple as that,” declares her Monger.

And around and around they go.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

This Month we are talking about the three characters that chat at us throughout the day and are at the core of The Happier Approach. Last week we talked about the Monger, and today, we are going to talk about it with the voice we most often use to counter our Monger: the BFF.

Your BFF enables us to rebel against the mean voice of our Monger. When we get tired of our Monger criticizing us, you bring in your BFF for a little self-compassion, but it often ends up going overboard into false self-compassion (aka doing whatever you want). Your BFF loves false self-compassion.

Your BFF is the one who always has your back, is always willing to risk getting into trouble, is always there to defend you—that BFF. She is not about holding your feet to the fire or keeping you accountable but is always able to find a justification and someone to blame. She is all about helping you feel special. She is kind and wants you to feel good about yourself. In her mind, responsibility, accountability, and restraint do not apply. Listening to her can feel awesome, and she can be trouble.

To Your BFF, self-compassion means:

You are always right.

They are always wrong.

You deserve whatever your heart desires.

Fun is #1.

She will protect you to the death.

Your BFF enables you to rebel against the mean voice of your Monger. When you get tired of your Monger criticizing you, you bring in your BFF for a little self-compassion, but it often ends up going overboard into false self-compassion (aka doing whatever you want). Your BFF loves false self-compassion.

Last episode, I talked about my quest to quiet the Monger. This quest started because I watched my Dad, a man in his 70s ravaged by Parkinson’s with Dementia who looked back on his well-accomplished life and still didn’t feel good enough. His Monger convinced him that no matter what he did, he was a failure.

As I started on this quest, I read as much as I could about how to quiet the inner critic (aka Monger). The advice was to love yourself no matter what (aka practice self-compassion), so I became obsessed with the subject of self-compassion. I chatted with clients and friends. I practiced self-compassion exercises like repeating positive mantras and telling myself how awesome I was.

To be honest, the idea of loving myself no matter what was radical and foreign. It sounded great, but it wasn’t something I could do 100 percent of the time. Hell, I couldn’t even do it 20 percent of the time.

The problem was twofold: One, my Monger voice was painful and stressing me out. Two, when I practiced what I thought was self-compassion, it would lead to a short respite, but in the end, it made my Monger more fired up. I realized that just finding self-compassion was not enough.

I was living in this constant back and forth between the extremes of my Monger and the false “do whatever you want” version of self-compassion. Ultimately, my Monger always won. She always convinced me that I wouldn’t accomplish anything without her constant correction.

I started exploring self-acceptance, self-compassion, and the idea that you are supposed to talk to yourself like you are your own best friend. I spent a long time getting to know my inner best friend (I call her my BFF). She was kind and nice, but I quickly discovered she was more of an enabler.

She was the opposite of my Monger, encouraging freedom and kindness to counteract my Monger’s shame and belittling. Unfortunately, I also quickly noticed that all my BFF did was fight with my Monger. Yes, she had my back. Yes, she wanted me to be happy. But she wasn’t really helping the situation or looking out for my best interests. She was just stirring up drama with my Monger.

I noticed the same issues with my clients. The more we explored self-compassion, the more confused they became. We uncovered the practice of false self-compassion, where we equated loving ourselves with a free pass to do whatever we wanted. Their BFF would encourage cake and chardonnay, only to be met with the Monger suggesting they were fat alcoholics who didn’t deserve such treats.

Let’s see how Sarah’s BFF is chiming in after the meeting went south. As Sarah drives home from her terrible day, she calls her best friend and shares all the drama of the day. She throws her co-workers under the bus, blames her boss, and deflects all responsibility of the day. Her best friend is supportive and immediately starts chiming in how much people suck and how hard it is to be a good employee with the lack of support we receive. Sarah stops at the grocery store to pick up a pint of ice cream and a bottle of wine and throws in a bag of chocolates for good measure. She deserves it! It has been a crappy day! At home, she tells the whole story again to her spouse; her BFF has fine-tuned it now to showcase how the world is conspiring to get her, and if it wasn’t for all the incompetent people she works with, this would never have happened.

She pours herself a glass of wine, grabs some chocolates, and starts the nightly duties of dinner, homework, and bedtime. By the time the kids are in bed, Sarah is 3 glasses in and ready to devour the pint of ice cream. Her BFF tells her that she is fine; she deserves to eat as much as she wants. In the spirit of false self-compassion, her BFF is taking Sarah down a dark, miserable road. Yes, her Monger isn’t chatting at her, she isn’t being negative on herself, but she is definitely sabotaging her goals and her relationships.

She has already picked a fight with her spouse, yelled at her kids, and her mood is miserable. She crawls into bed and passes out, angry and feeling alone, justified that no one understands her plight.

Here are some ways your BFF shows up:

Overindulging and Numbing, That 3rd glass of wine, the whole pint of ice cream, shopping with no regard for your budget, or spending the whole weekend hiding out bingeing on Netflix these are just some of the ways your BFF encourages you to blow off steam and decrease the pressure of the Monger.

I DESERVE, your BFF’s love to tell you that ‘you deserve’ things. This language is a sign that you are in the trance of the BFF. Have a bad day? You deserve a glass of wine! Have a good day? You deserve a glass of wine? She can justify anything. The question to ask is, do you want it? Saying you deserve takes the power away from enjoying it. If you WANT the 3rd glass of wine, drink it in good health, enjoy every last drop, not because you deserve it but because that glass of wine will add to the enjoyment of your life.

Judging: Your BFF loves to judge other people in order to protect you. She is the first to point out when someone else has failed, looks bad, or is not doing well. In an effort to have your back, she will quickly point out others’ flaws to make you look better.

Causing Drama: Your BFF also LOVE drama. Drama deflects from reality. She loves to complain, whine and encourage you to share the story over and over again. She can make everyone else the problem and you the poor misunderstood hero.

Whenever I notice myself displaying any of these behaviors, I recognize that it is my BFF talking which usually means my Monger has been chatting as well. Wherever the BFF is, so is the Monger.

This war between the BFF and the Monger plays out because we live in an all-or-nothing world. We try so hard to do it right, and we are wound so tight in the goal of following all the rules perfectly that we go from one extreme (Monger = complete rule-following) to another (BFF = doing whatever you want).

Because she is the opposite of your Monger, your BFF tends to perpetuate the problem. She just gives your Monger more ammunition.

I won’t disagree that listening to your BFF is fun and easy. She always knows how to have a good time, and she is a welcome relief from the voice of your Monger. For years I was stuck here, going back and forth between my BFF and my Monger. I told myself I was channeling self-compassion and being kind to myself, but in reality, I was just making the problem bigger and more confusing. Their constant arguing and battle of wills left me on a hamster wheel of worry and anxiety.

I also see this with my clients. They get stuck in this pattern of “soldiering on” and listening to their Monger and then releasing the pressure with their BFF’s false self-compassion.

Finding that middle ground is hard, but it is where the magic is. Because sometimes you need to take responsibility. Sometimes it isn’t all about fun and deserving. Sometimes it is about getting stuff done. If we want to fully embrace our lives and do hard things, we have to get stuff done even when it is uncomfortable.

Next week I will be talking about how to get in touch with THAT voice, the voice of kindness and wisdom, your Biggest Fan. See you next week!!

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---