Season 2 Episode 5: All the Feels

In this episode, we learn all about how feelings show up in our brains and in our bodies, and how they can affect the way we interact with the world around us

In this episode, we learn all about feelings. How they show up in our brains and in our bodies, and how they can affect the way we interact with the world around us. Nancy tells us about trying to conquer her Monger during a stressful time, and how feeling her emotions in her body and naming them, helped her to feel better in the moment. We also hear from science journalist and health advocate Donna Jackson Nakazawa who explains to us from a scientific perspective what a feeling actually is, and how it affects our bodies over the course of our lives. She gives us some tips for understanding our emotions and how our health can be affected by trauma.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How feelings affect our physical and mental health.

• How a feeling is biologically created.

• How trauma affects our emotional and physical state

• Resources and advice from Donna Jackson Nakazawa.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to donnajacksonnakazawa.com to order Donna's books and courses.

• Follow Donna on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter.

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Zip up your wetsuit, because in today’s episode we’re diving straight into the Emotion Ocean. This episode is all about feelings. You know, those pesky little things that tend to wash over us at what seems like exactly the wrong moment? Sometimes it can seem like taking the time to understand and acknowledge our feelings is just a big road block on our journey to self-loyalty.

Well, it turns out that feelings are more than little cartoon thought bubbles, inconveniently popping up over our heads. And just swatting at them won’t make them go away. Feelings are actually connected to what’s going on with our physical bodies, and they can have a HUGE impact on our physical as well as our mental health.

But, I didn’t always know that.

A few years ago. I was driving to work. As the world zoomed by out my window, I could feel my anxiety rising. My thoughts were jumping all over the place, my neck was throbbing and my hands were sweating.

In an attempt to calm myself, I wanted to get to the WHY. Why am I so stressed? So I asked myself, "What is going on? Why are you so stressed!?" But rather than approaching this stressed feeling with a loving curiosity, my Monger took over. The question became, "EXPLAIN YOURSELF, SOLDIER!!" WHY ARE YOU SO STRESSED?"

So like a good soldier, I named all the things that were stressing me out: work, my Dad’s parkinsons, my husbands' epilepsy, a presentation I had coming up.

This is usually how the game goes—my Monger asks me to justify my stress, and I list off my stresses with an air of indifference as if I was reciting a grocery list. I always lose the game to the Monger because her message always is: you SHOULD

be able to handle it, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE has it worse than you, and you are a wimp who can't handle any stress.

But sitting at the traffic light wrapped in the safety of my car I let myself cry. I put my hands over my heart and named what was under all that stress, what I was feeling: sad, overwhelmed, and scared.

My body relaxed, and as I pulled into my office parking lot, I thought to myself: I’ve turned a corner with this whole anxiety thing...

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Fast forward to this past week. Again my anxiety was high, I was worrying about a project for work, obsessing about a conversation I had had with a friend, and my arthritis was flaring. Last night as I was cooking dinner, I thought to myself once again: Why are you so stressed?

I recited to myself: Well I am behind on a project at work. I ran out of time again! I think I said the wrong thing to Sandy today and my arthritis is killing me. It just sucks so bad. All with the emotional equivalent of reading a grocery list.

And then there was the Monger's voice: "You are fine. You are so privileged. Think of all the people out there who are hurting, and you are barely holding it together because of a few stressors—give me a break."

I had been playing this familiar game most of the week. My anxiety is high—my Monger belittles me—I try to justify it by naming all my stressors—she belittles me more. And round and round we go.

I’ve been playing this game for so long it’s habitual. It is like putting on an old itchy sweater.

I want to say that I recognized the game and BAMMO. I practiced acknowledging my feelings, and all was well.

But that isn't what happened. My Monger won last night just as she had all week.

Bird chirping sfx

And then this morning, walking the dog in the cool crisp air, smelling the flowers and watching Watterson have the joy only a dog can feel early in the morning, I thought to myself: You suck.

You are a mess. You are never going to get this project done at work. You are so behind and you are so lazy if you moved your body more you wouldn’t hurt so much!

My Monger thrives on these negative emotions. And it’s so easy to get stuck there. To feed into that negativity when I’m feeling down on myself. It’s a cycle. I feel bad, the monger pops up, I feel worse. Both mentally AND physically. How do we break that cycle once and for all? It turns out, it has A LOT to do with the story we tell ourselves about how we’re feeling.

ACT II: Donna Jackons-Nakazawa

Donna Jackson-Nakazawa:

we're always searching for a place where our voice and our essence can come to be to its true fruition. And that's a lifelong path.

Nancy VO: This is Donna Jackson-Nakazawa. She's a science journalist, health advocate, and author of six-- soon to be seven-- books that probe at the connection between science, journalism, and health.

Donna Jackson-Nakazawa: I delve into the science behind

the mind body connection and do a deep dive into the science while also intersecting it with what we know about the deepest layers of our human heart and our human existence

Nancy VO: Donna’s journey down this path started early.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa:I grew up in a family of Newspaper Publishers, grew up kind of running around the Annapolis Gazette, the evening Capitol at the time in Annapolis. My father was the editor and my family ran the paper and I just grew up running around with you know, all men At that point, a couple of female reporters and we would go and visit the presses all the time. And guys would give me little bits of unfortunately, lead type.

And I could grab my own words, and you'd go in there be all these little wooden boxes, and you could pick your words, and they’d print little papers for me.

My mother's family were a group of well educated and well known scientists and her father had been one of the founding scientists at the National Institutes of Health. So depending on which side of my family I was with, there were all these extremely smart people talking about, you know, chemistry and intersections of biology with chemistry and, and then on the other side, people were running around reporting and my father was a social activist. We had Vietnam vets come and sitting at our kitchen table. So I think that that marriage of science, public service, and communication was just very strong in me.

Nancy VO: But… things weren’t always easy for Donna growing up.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: Well, in that narrative, which I made sound so pretty and, and easy, um, there was a lot of discomfort, a lot of tragedy and a lot of a lot of hardship and a lot of adversity.

When I was 12, my dad who had a series of autoimmune issues, went in for a very minor surgery and he died. And so he never came home from that surgery. And we were truly aligned as writers and and thinkers, and life changed completely for us. My father's family without going too much into it had a lot of vested interest in the financial aspects of newspapers and printing presses. And so we were kind of ousted from that family. everything changed from you know, a family that would be outside and having crab feast on the water and sailing on the weekends. And really kind of a charmed life. To really struggling.

Nancy VO: All of that emotional stress started manifesting for Donna in a physical way.

Donna Jackson-Nakazawa: I was 14. And you know, at that time, we didn't understand the link between trauma and and our immune system. We just had no clue. But I started fainting and passing out.

By the time I was in my early 20s, I was really passing out on my college campus. In my 20s, I started having seizures, I ended up having a pacemaker put in for heart block and vasovagal syncope so and then I began to develop a series of autoimmune diseases. Thyroiditis, I had Guillain Barre syndrome got better than I got it again. And a couple of other autoimmune diseases. I don't like to list them all because it just makes me, you know, listing diagnoses kind of perks up my immune system in a way I don't like.

Nancy VO: Because of her background in science journalism, Donna saw a connection between the negative emotional stressors and traumas she’d experienced, and her autoimmune issues.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: The immune system is kind of like a barrel, right, you can put so much in it. But then there can be that last drop

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And the water at the top of the barrel spills over. And so we all are born with different barrels, right. And we could call that lower level of water, genetic predisposition, genetic predisposition, we certainly have autoimmune disease in my family, we can call a layer of water a huge, a huge part of the water that fills the barrel, our experiences, our traumatic experiences, whatever it is, over time that's picked up a sense of unsafety in us is going to pick up our immune system. So unpredictable chronic stress growing up that threat set that threat response that gets set up in childhood, for good or for ill, over time, the exposure to chronic unpredictable stress and trauma in childhood actually turns on genes that up the stress threat response. Over time, we can see in kids who experienced adversity when they were young, that the genes that oversee the stress response and should turn it on and off appropriately, they get stuck in the on position, you might think of it kind of like a dimmer switch in the dining room, you know, where you can turn that dimmer switch to high and low light shine higher.

So we want with the stress threat response, we want to be able to respond to things that are scary appropriately. And then the dimmer switch turns off. That's how the stress response is supposed to work as nature intended. But in kids and teens who grow up with chronic unpredictable stress, and many different types of adversity, from poverty to a parent with a mental health disorder to losing a parent, they all have in common, putting a child in a state of not knowing what's coming in the next moment or the next moment or the next moment. And when that happens, it signals the immune system to perk up and it causes these epigenetic shifts to genes that oversee the stress response. So this fills water in the barrel, right? That just water goes higher.

Our brain and body are talking 24 seven, Are you safe or not safe? And if the answer is you're not safe, and the reason is emotional, our brain doesn't distinguish between that as a reason to respond on an immune level, from whether or not that hit is a physical head of physical trauma or an infection or exposure to a toxic chemical.

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Nancy TAPE:

Is it true that according to in our brain stress is stress, emotional, physical, biological, it's, it's all the same, but we as humans have labeled it as something different?

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Donna TAPE

To speak to that I have to take you all the way back 300 years if you want to want to go that far with me to when we can thank early philosophers

Descartes for the idea of Mind Body dualism that the body and the mind function as church and state entities. Early anatomist agreed with him. When they began to go in and look at the body, they found two things which convinced them that the mind and body were not connected. And that is a, constellation of dense red blood cells at the base of the brain called the blood brain barrier. And it was thought that because of this dense constellation of cells, it was nature's way of preventing the immune system in the body, from communicating with the brain in any way, immune cells and signals couldn't get through. And then of course, although we know that our body is this immunological organ, all of this thinking led to the idea that the brain was categorically what we call immune privilege. If you are hanging a picture in your house, and you hit your thumb by mistake, it's gonna get red, hot, painful and swollen. That's inflammation. That's literally how we define inflammation, red hot, painful and swollen.

However, early anatomist thought well, the brain can't be ruled by the immune system, it can't be talking to the immune system, it must be immune privileged, because it has this hard cap on top of it, right, it has a skull, unlike any other part of the body. So if the brain we're going to be ruled by the immune system, it must have the power to swell and recede, swell and receive like every other organ in the body. But because of the skull, anatomist and philosophers who agreed that the brain was immune privileged.

100 years ago, Spanish neuroscientists found they were looking at cells other than neurons in the brain. So neurons, of course, fire and wire together, our thought patterns, our neural neural pathways, our neural circuitry, we can think of neurons which are the flashy darlings of the neuroscience research world.

Beat

But about 100 years ago, researchers started looking at four glial cells in the brain, they're non neuronal cells, one of them is called micro glia. And these little glial cells make up almost 10% of our brain cells. But no one really knew what they did. And Spanish neuroscientists kind of looked at them shrugged and went, looks like they're just catering to neurons. They're like helping neurons and they're like a support system, kind of like an entourage around a movie star. But just seven years ago to kick butt female researchers at Harvard took a deeper look at these cells. They went way out on a limb, they really investigated them, and they found out that these little glial cells microglia are actually immune cells in the brain. And when they are activated by stressors, all the same stressors we talked about be that physical, infectious, chemical, or emotional stressors.

They morph and puff up into these big fat hairy Pac Man like cells, and they begin to munch and eat away at synapses. And researchers at Mount Sinai in New York, they found that these little glial cells actually break off their immune cells that break off from our white blood cells on the seventh or eighth day of gestation, in utero, and they rise up to the brain. And they rule brain immune health, they communicate 24 seven with the immune cells in our body, and all of science miss this for the past 100 years.

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Donna Jackson Nakazawa: None of this understanding that what affects us emotionally affects our brain connectivity, which affects our behavior, our feelings, our thoughts, and how we communicate with each other and our relationships and how well we feel about the world.

No one understood that this was being shaped by our intersection between ourselves, our brains and our environment, on an immune level on a brain immune level, until very, very recently.

Nancy TAPE:

So can you explain from a scientific perspective what a feeling is?

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Donna Jackson Nakazawa: Feelings and emotions arise in response to the world around us, and that in response to the thoughts that we're having. Anything that is happening without and within, that stirs, a strong response is going to lead to a feeling, but a feeling is also a physical thing.

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So again, we didn't use to understand that we thought of feeling within the mind. And everything else happened in the body. But a feeling is usually something that feels a little flooding, like flooding, or overwhelming, it fills us, it fills our mind. But what we forget is that it's also filling our body our body changes, it enters into a slightly different state, depending on the feeling if the feeling is happy, our body floods with oxytocin and other feel good hormones that are actually neuro protective.

A feeling that's negative is that fight flight freeze response, where the body goes into this escalation of stress hormones, and chemicals, and those flood the body. And that's why when you're really stressed, your heart rate goes higher. The little hair on your hands and arms stands up, you, your muscles get very tense to either fight or flee. Your blood all rushes to your arms and legs. It's why you get butterflies right? Because all the blood does it your body doesn't care about digestion, right? Then it just cares, do I have to run?

Or do I have to fight. So a feeling is emerging from this 24 seven dance we're doing with our environment and with ourselves in our own minds. So it's an intersection between a thought or an event and our mental state.

At the same time, it's a biophysical response because the two cannot be separated. And I think that's what's so important to understand about the biology of emotion is that your emotion, if we look at it through the lens of what we call psycho neuro immunology to break that great term down, psycho is psychology. neuro is neuroscience. immunology is your immune system. So a thought is really something that enters into this process of psychoneuroimmunology, the psychology of thinking, that neuro immune response in the brain and the immune response in the body you cannot separate those three ever, whether it's in response to an event outside you or within you, and all of them are biophysical responses that occur in the body, and over time begin to change the body and the brain.

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Donna Jackson Nakazawa: We think that what's happening in our mind is not happening in our body, and what's happening in our bodies not happening in our mind. But in fact, our body and mind are two ways superhighway communicating 24 seven about one central question, Am I safe? Or am I not safe? That is your brains job, your brain is a detective. That's what your brain cares about. We are the drivers of this conversation that we're having with ourselves and with the world around us.

Nancy VO: That stressed out feeling I talked about in the story at the beginning of the episode? My body tensing up, my mind racing, my heart beating fast-- that physical response is all wrapped up in my emotional response. And THAT affects my immune response too. The arthritis flare I mentioned? It could have to do with the stress I was feeling.

Beat

Nancy VO: So now that we know that all of this is connected, the mind, body, and immune system-- how can we use that knowledge to feel better, physically and mentally?

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: So there are many things we can do to clean up our environment. We can add in, you know, meditation, and yoga and movement and dance and all kinds of different things. But we also have to begin to rewrite and re-narrate the way in which we talk to ourselves and the way in which we communicate with ourselves about the threats that exist in the world out there.

Nancy VO: That idea of telling the story of your stress to yourself differently is totally key. And Donna actually developed a course to do just that-- it’s called: Your Healing Narrative: Write-to-Heal With Neural Re-Narrating.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: We can literally rewire our conversation about how safe we are so that the immune system and the brain can calm down the immune system and the body can calm down and we can create a narrative that's literally on paper of our story, giving it meaning

Nancy VO: When we’re able to understand our story, and tell it to ourselves with more compassion, it can calm us down emotionally, which makes us feel better physically.

Donna Jackson Nakazawa: I really developed this course, to help bring down that stress threat response, particularly for those with chronic conditions. And rewire some of those neural pathways, away from that heightened stress threat response, so that we can flourish even when we're dealing with adversity. There's a saying in the trauma community that trauma healing happens when we understand our story. And we give meaning to it, and we create meaning through it for who we are now and long into the future.

Offer yourself every opportunity to take this time to ask yourself about that intersection between the trauma that you faced in your life or now as an adult and your ability to go within and the narrative that you have of yourself and your own worth, and your ability to wake up on your own side.

Beat

Nancy VO: As I think we’ve established, it’s hard for me to give myself compassion. Especially when my Monger is running the show. What I didn’t realize before, is that by re-framing the conversation with myself kindly, I’m actually creating a new neural pathway. A new groove in my brain for my mind to trace, that might lead me to a less stressed-out place.

ACT III: Learning to re-narrate

Nancy VO: Where we last left off, I was walking my dog on a beautiful morning. But I was also wearing that itchy, uncomfortable Monger sweater. Letting my Monger berate me for an arthritis flare that was affecting my ability to get work done.

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Nancy VO: Suddenly, I thought: STOP. This it isn’t helping! I took a minute to ask myself: What are you feeling? Sad, scared, overwhelmed, tired, lost. I am feeling like a mess. Then, I got tears in my eyes. I immediately softened and I heard a quiet voice say: "It is ok to be a mess, Sweet pea. It is hard right now. You are doing just fine." And my whole body relaxed. I let the tears flow... And for the first time in a week, I took off the Monger sweater.

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This time—I didn't say to myself, Oh, you’ve turned a corner. I didn’t put that much pressure on myself. I recognize that as much as I want to put this anxiety stuff behind me, as much as I wish the minute I notice my anxiety, I could acknowledge my feelings and all would be well... that isn't the case. My Monger still wins for way longer than I want her to. I still play her silly games of justifying my stress. And I wear her sweater, which repels any messages of self-loyalty for days and weeks at a time.

The good news? I do have the antidote. I know acknowledging my feelings helps. I know that owning what I am experiencing and not trying to justify it or belittle it helps... It isn't instantaneous. It isn't magical. It takes WAY longer than I want it to.

My High Functioning Anxiety wants to find a hack, a system, a guaranteed 5 step plan. A plan that I will want to do and will only take a few minutes, and BAMMO I will be fixed. And it just isn't realistic. For now, dog walks, slowing down, acknowledging my feelings, talking to friends, being kind to myself, and having my own back. That’s what helps.

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Outro

That’s it for this week! In our next episode we’re going to tackle a mental health buzzword that can really tick me off: gratitude. What is it? Is it really realistic to try to feel it all the time? We’ll find out next time, on the Happier Approach.

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Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Donna Jackson-Nakazawa for speaking with us today. If you’re dealing with unresolved childhood trauma or feeling chronically stressed and want to learn how to rewire your brain for health and build resilience back into your life, you can find Donna’s books and courses at donna jackson nakazawa dot com. That’s Donna Jackson N-A-K-A-Z-A-W-A dot com.

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

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Season 2 Episode 4: The Biggest Fan

In this episode, we'll learn about the final character in the Happier Approach cast-- the wise, self-loyal, and sometimes elusive, Biggest Fan.

In this episode, we'll learn about the final character in the Happier Approach cast-- the wise, self-loyal, and sometimes elusive, Biggest Fan. The Biggest Fan always has your back, but that doesn't mean that listening to her is easy. Nancy shares her experience of learning to tap into the voice of the Biggest Fan through the encouragement of her husband Doug. Then, she speaks with actor Victor Warren, who embodies what it means to listen to that self-loyal voice in order to make your dreams come true. Finally, Nancy shares a conversation between herself and her husband Doug, where they talk about the true meaning of the Biggest Fan.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The Biggest Fan

• Tips for tapping into the self-loyal voice of the Biggest Fan.

• Insight from actor Victor Warren.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to www.victorwarren.com.

• Hire Victor to narrate your next audiobook at acx.com

• Follow Victor on Twitter at @victorwarren.

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Today is the day we get to meet the final, and my favorite, character of the Happier Approach cast. In our yellow brick road analogy she’s like Glenda the Good Witch. Kind, encouraging, and somewhat elusive. She’s not the type to let you off the hook. She’ll still make you walk all the way through the magical land of Oz just to learn that the key to happiness was clicking together the shoes you were wearing the whole time. But in the end you’ll be glad you went on that journey. I’m talking about my wise, self-loyal Biggest Fan.

Like I’ve mentioned in earlier episodes-- for a really long time I believed I needed the Monger to motivate me. I needed to be mean and belittling to myself or I wouldn’t accomplish any of my goals. But lucky for me my husband Doug has big Glenda the Good Witch vibes. When my Monger is running the show, he’s pretty much the real-world, human version of that kind, self-loyal voice of the Biggest Fan.

Music

ACT I: Nancy and Doug the Biggest Fan

Nancy VO: Doug and I were both in the basement. He was working and I was riding the exercise bike listening to a highly successful marketing expert talk about what I should be doing to market my business. Building a network, reaching out to people, and sharing what I do.

That would all require me to put myself out there and be a little more extroverted, which I hate. But by the time I hopped off the bike the marketing expert had motivated me. While I did some post-workout stretches on the floor, I shared what I’d learned with Doug. I even shared how I was going to make it happen.

Doug didn’t say much. He just nodded along and listened intently.

Music shift

After our chat, I walked the 2 flights back upstairs to start my day. By the time I’d showered and dressed and parked myself in front of my computer in my home office…my Monger had started talking.

You suck at networking—you are terrible at it. What do you have to share? Why would someone want to listen to you? You’ll seem so pushy and annoying like one of those horrible sales people. Ugh This is going to be awful.

As soon as my Monger was finished, my BFF stepped in: SCREW this “so-called” expert! This is just her opinion. What does she know?? Let’s just keep doing what we were doing. Passive marketing is where it is at.

By the time my Monger and BFF were done duking it out, I felt totally stuck. So I ventured back down the two flights of stairs to talk with Doug about it. I shared my doubts and the conversation in my head. And again, he quietly listened. Finally he said, “do you think networking more would help?” I said “yes”... and then started in again describing the debate between the Monger and the BFF.

He cut in and replied, “Stop. If you think it will help, then go figure out how to do it. You can totally do this. Just stop debating.” He gave me a hug and turned back to his work.

Beat

With Doug’s back to me, I stood there stunned and a little pissed off. I turned around and walked upstairs with tears in my eyes. That wasn’t the response I’d wanted! I didn’t want to take action—taking action was scary! I wanted to keep debating. I wanted more coddling. More Sweetie I know it is hard. And what I really wanted to hear was this: you don’t have to do this. You can stay small and still run a business. Basically, you don’t have to believe in yourself.

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Believing in myself is something I struggle with. And when I talk about self-loyalty this is it in a nutshell: being able to have your own back. Intrinsically. Knowing that you are enough and that you’ll find your way.

When I’m striking out on my own, putting myself out there and doing new things that scare me it’s particularly hard to tap into that self-loyal Biggest Fan voice. What if you fail my Monger says. What if everyone rejects you AND your ideas?

And that makes me wonder. If I have trouble pushing myself to face potential failure and rejection, how do people who have to face rejection over and over in order to do what they love motivate themselves to keep going. How do they learn to embody that wise voice of the Biggest Fan.

Victor

I've been acting since. since I was 10. My dad was a film composer. My mom was an opera singer. So, so they kind of so I guess that's where I got it.

Nancy VO: This is Victor Warren. He’s made a living as an actor, writer, and director since the early 90s.

Victor

I've done some directing and some writing, a bunch of screenplays playing the try to make movie thing in Hollywood for a while.

Nancy TAPE

What, what, what made you want to be an actor? Do you have like an acting origin story?

Music

Victor

I have a Charlie Chaplin cane that you can't see that's hanging on the wall right here that when I was I think around 10 my birthday gift was a Charlie Chaplin cane and a clown nose. And it was like, That's it. That's it. And you know, I mean, and I did my imitations of Charlie Chaplin.

Victor

My mom did operas at Cal State University Northridge.

Victor

and Dr. Scott, who was the head of the department was conducting the opera and wanted me to do it. And he asked me to do it and sing it in front of everybody. And I just laughed hysterically and couldn't and couldn't do it. And then a year later, they did an opera that was only like they're only like six rolls and it was a pants roll. That's normally paid by a woman, but my voice hadn't changed yet.

And I got to to be in that. I, I got cast and I learned the part and I played it. And I was with these college students, you know, that went on to sing at the Met and but Living in that world where you know I just, I loved the world of it.

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Victor

I'm an artist. So I want to through whatever story or medium I'm doing, I want to affect someone with the possibility of hope and change in their own lives. Which leads me I mean, granted, I'll take a job, and I will be a serial killer, you know, I'll do whatever needs to be done. But in the bottom line, I want to reflect back to somebody who's engaged in it.

Nancy VO: But being an artist and an actor means Victor’s had to deal with rejection A LOT. He is constantly putting himself out there. It’s basically a part of his job.

General Hospital theme

Victor

I did a small reoccurring on Heneral hospital for a little bit, which was great. It was great driving on a lot and Mr. Warren Right this way. And, and, and it with soap operas, you basically get somebody else's dressing room was not working. So I had somebody else's big dressing room and and I thought, Oh, yeah, this is great look, and then the job's done. And then you don't work.

Victor

I'm kind of a character lead. So I'm like a Tom Hanks or Michael Keaton kind of thing. But I'm not a leading like, they didn't know what to do with me. They didn't know how to cast me.

Nancy VO: Even though Victor didn’t fit into some of those Hollywood roles, he kept going. He carved out a niche for himself over the years doing TV commercials and voice overs.

Commercial reel

Victor

I kind of hit a stride. And never made, you know, not a killing, but consistent money that it could support.

Victor

But it's I think. There's so many people that just basically, have given up. And they're, I mean, I'm talking phenomenal, amazing actors talented beyond belief, who just got to a certain point where I got to raise my kids, I can do this thing, I'm going to sell insurance. I'm done. I'm done. I just I've been fortunate enough that I've kind of been able to just keep going. I mean, granted, you have those moments of, like, Holy fuck, I just I sucked at that. Or, you know, you just wonder, cuz no one. It's not like, someone's going here. Good job, God, God, you're great. You know, you're, you're doing it on your own. And you have to find your own support mechanisms.

Victor

There's something in me that don't I I'm struck to use profanity. You know, just fuck it. I'm doing what I'm fucking doing. And granted, you want people to go, Oh, good job, good job. But it's like, I'm doing this, this is what I'm doing. And you're not going to stop me because I'm going to do it anyway. And I don't know where in my genetic pool makeup that comes from. And I've gotten better at I have to trust the fact that there that I'm doing what I'm doing for some reason. And, and just keep one foot in front of the next.

Nancy TAPE

Would you say that you're you kind of motivate yourself to keep going, even though there's rejection happening? Because of, I'm just gonna ask why. How do you motivate yourself to keep going?

Victor

I need I need to create opportunity for myself, because I love doing it.

Victor

I'll never not do it. Like, like, people talk about retiring even actors who work all the time they. But I just, I mean, the only reason I wouldn't do it is because I physically mentally couldn't.

Victor

But you look at somebody like you know, still working all those older actors like Anthony Hopkins in The Father right now. Oh, my fucking God. He's, he's just gorgeous. I mean, it's the craft and I want to be that it's kind of like me, me looking at those. Those people when I did the opera, you know I want to do that. I want to be that person. And the only way I can do it because I don't have those opportunities is just to keep going.

Nancy TAPE

What do you think separates you from the people that are like I'm done. I can’t do it anymore.

Victor

Again, it's just I'm not. I'm never not going to do this. I don't I can't see myself being me. And not doing this.

Beat

Nancy TAPE

would you say you have a biggest fan?

Victor

if I have a biggest fan, it is yourself being your own biggest fan.

Nancy TAPE

Yeah, cuz I would describe mean how you have described like handling the rejection, all of that, to me is a super self loyal way of this is how I want to be, you know, I have to do this like this is I got to figure out a way.

Victor

I mean, I think, which I hadn't really thought about till we've just had this conversation. But I think the the the analogy, or the things that I put together of Anthony Hopkins and my that thing when I was 11/12 years old, doing the opera is very resonant right now in me, based on our conversation just now. So I feel emotional now.

Music

Victor

My friend Paul Raci, who is now he's nominated for Best Supporting Actor this year and Academy Awards for this role that's perfect for him. I was in a play a few years back with Paul, and we became friends. And but he's older.

And, but we're backstage doing this show. That's a beautiful show. But, you know, he's saying, you know, look, I'm done. I'm done. I do these one line things. I don't work. I'm done. I'm finished. This is it. Going on and on about, forget it, fuck it. I'm done. No more rejection, one line pimp rolls, I'm over done. And he gets this roll. That is perfect for him. And he is going to the Academy Awards. I mean, it obviously gives you hope. But you know, not that I'm going to go to the Academy Awards, but whatever it is that makes things happen. Somehow out of the quintesimal fragments of existence, that galvanize into that moment that creates a lifelong opportunity,

I think has to derive itself from the motivation of not giving up, and I'm going to get it done. Because if Paul did give up, he never would have gotten that.

Music out

Nancy TAPE

So do you think that that idea of having your own back, and, you know, kind of that biggest fan thing we've talked about is important?

Victor

It's the only it's the only way you can sustain yourself. Especially for an artist. I mean, granted, I guess someone who works in sales would need the biggest fan to say, I can talk to my boss about this new idea. You know, there, there's different versions of it. But as an artist, definitely.

Victor

I mean, especially if you're an actor, it's all just, you, you you. If you can't help yourself and be your own biggest fan, it'll be much more difficult to succeed or succeed is not the right word to continue doing what you do. Yeah, I mean, I would say that probably most of these other actors I know, who had to give up to financially make money to support their kids to do certain things. I mean, if they had their biggest fan, or they had some, something along those lines that kept them motivated or on track, even though they had to do these other things, they probably wouldn't have given up completely.

Victor

I think what gets you out of it is making a choice and stepping forward. Because what's stopping you is the lack of inertia, the feeling of I just want to pull the covers up over my head, and don't bother me. And so it's, you know, throwing the sheet off and stepping out and taking a shower and saying, just keep going.

Nancy TAPE

Is there anything that the fear of rejection kept you from pursuing?

Victor

No. I don't. I mean, I've learned in the past, and I think it's been a learned thing is that you can't make any choices based on fear. And, and that I think that's a piece of it. So, no, I've never not done anything because I was afraid of,

Victor

Somehow we are all unique. And we all deserve the possibility to empower ourselves to be and do whatever we want. And I think it is a question of trusting and letting that happen. And not questioning it and not being afraid of it. But just moving forward through it.

Victor

You know it sounds so simple, or just you, you have to, you have to live your dream.

Nancy TAPE

I am struck that self loyalty for you is just is a way of being in the world. And I think that's why it isn't something that's separate from you. It is it's a voice but it is like it's just like you kind of ooze it. It's just who you are.

Victor

Iit feels like it is a protective coat. I've created to wear for myself at a young age. And I think I've just worn it.

Victor

And yeah, it's part of me.

Music out

Nancy VO: Just putting one foot in front of the other. Trusting in yourself enough to know that you’ll make it to your next goal. That you’ll keep getting to do what you love despite the potential for rejection. THAT is the voice of the Biggest Fan in action.

Nancy VO: Like I told Victor, I’mstill learning how to trust that voice enough to put myself out there. To do the things that scare me. Like… learning how to network and market my business.

Music

Nancy VO: So last we left off, I was in the middle of a meltdown. In tears that Doug, my husband and the external voice of my Biggest Fan, had kindly, but firmly, told me to just get to work.

Nancy VO: By the time I’d rounded the corner of our second floor and headed back into my office I thought… he’s right. Really? That was the kind kick in the butt I needed. The tears weren’t about him insulting me. The tears were because he was right and I was scared.

To be fair this was a different version of kindness than my husband's usual go-to. Usually he leans more toward the coddling Oh Sweetie I know it is hard perspective. But every now and then, this different style of kindness comes out that is more genuine. It’s tough love. It’s you know how to put one foot in front of the other and you can do this. THAT is the voice of the Biggest Fan.

She says: it is going to be hard, it is going to be stressful and you can do it. No shame, no belittling, no beating me up like the Monger. But ALSO no chocolate, no hours of watching bad TV and making myself feel better by judging other people like my BFF.

On that day, Doug personified my Biggest Fan. He was kind, genuine, and to the point. He’s the Biggest Fan that exists outside of me and reminds me to check in with my internal Biggest Fan.

Music

Doug TAPE

so being the biggest fan and Nancy Jane Smith life? Is?

Doug TAPE

It's unique because she's kind of stubborn. And therefore there's the battle of the BFF and the mongar and then there's like a really stubborn that I want to keep this battle going

Doug TAPE

And it can be risky, but you just got to be like, hey, stubborn lady, stop in all this entanglement of arguing and get to work. Because you know, you need to get to work.

Nancy TAPE

There's a lot of shame in the fact that my mongar and BFF have ruled the day. And then when you come in to say it, you're walking a very, you know, a floor covered in mines. To get to the point where I'm going to be like, Oh, he's not attacking me. He's really, wants what's best for lovingly encouraging me. Versus you are

Doug TAPE

Cracking a whip over here.

Nancy TAPE

So but I think that there are definitely it's not like your success in this. Oh, no. That's it so hard.

It's not like you're a success at it all the time. Being my biggest fan, right?

Doug TAPE

Iit’s why I chose stubborn as well, because it's not like I know what's best. I'll just kind of poke and ask I'm not forcing anything on her. I'm not saying you have to progress and do this way. I'll just be like, hey, I've noticed this taking place. I know you have also so what's up with that?

Nancy TAPE

How would you describe the biggest fan?

Doug TAPE

I mean, the biggest fan is that that kind voice of reason that tells you what to do.

Nancy TAPE

How would you describe the Biggest Fan?

Doug TAPE

It's the one that is going to give you the most benefit not only now but most likely in the future as well. It's if there is such thing as a right choice, it's guiding you towards that right choice based on your morals and your values and your experience like that's that's your biggest fan and you have to believe that your biggest fan is going to be making those right choices or it doesn't quite work. Like yes, my biggest fan knows me. I believe my biggest fan and together we're doing this

Music out

Nancy VO: And that’s exactly what I did. As I sat down at my desk and started building a networking list, I could hear my internal Biggest Fan reflecting back what Doug told me: “You say you want to build a bigger business. You say you think building a network is an important next step. You say you’re scared. Understandable. Both are true so let’s do this.”

Outro

That’s it for this week! In our next episode we’re going to pull back from the nitty gritty of the Happier Approach characters and zoom out to see how we can integrate everything we’re learned about them on our own journey to self-loyalty. First stop: feelings. How do feelings translate into action? Can emotions have an impact on our physical as well as our mental health?

We’ll dive into all of that next time, on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Victor Warren for speaking with us today. You can learn more about Victor and follow his work at victor warren dot com.

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music fade out

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Season 2 Episode 3: The BFF

In this episode, we get close and personal with another central character in the Happier Approach: the overindulgent BFF.

In this episode, we get close and personal with another central character in the Happier Approach: the overindulgent BFF. The BFF has good intentions-- she's often jumping in to argue with the Monger when that mean voice of self-criticism gets too loud. But the BFF can push us over the line from self-care to self-indulgence very quickly. Nancy walks us through a typical tug-of-war between her Monger and BFF, and tells us how she's able to quiet those voices.

Nancy also speaks to writer and mental health advocate Jill Stark, author of three books about mental health. Jill tells us about her experience giving up alcohol, and how practicing radical honesty around that tough decision totally kick-started her career as an author. She also shares some tips that she's picked up from her own experiences dealing with her inner critic.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The BFF.

• Tips for recognizing the BFF voice and distinguishing between self-care and self-indulgence.

• Resources and advice from Jill Stark.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to https://jillstark.com.au/

• Check out Jill's Twitter account @jillastark

• Follow Jill on Instagram @jillstark_

• Order Jill's books When You're Not OK, Happy Never After, and High Sobriety through her website: https://jillstark.com.au/books/

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Cold Open

Jill: I’d just say to anyone who is feeling that they’re in a really tough place and that somehow their truffles define them or make them weak or weird or abnormal. You’re not alone. And it is possible to struggle and still be strong and that your vulnerability is your superpower.

Intro

Music

Nancy VO: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

So far this season we’ve tackled a few different topics. We’ve talked about where my inspiration to write the Happier Approach came from, and learned all about that mean old Monger. If you missed those episodes, go back and check ‘em out!

In today’s episode we’re exploring another Happier Approach character.

One that’s totally tied to the Monger, but acts like her complete opposite. I call her my BFF.

Music

Wherever there’s a Monger, there’s a BFF. When our Monger gets too loud and overwhelming, the BFF usually chimes in to relieve some of the pressure. She’s the voice that tells me: just hit the snooze button one more time, splurge on that fancy pair of pants that instagram advertised to you because you deserve it. She’s not mean like the Monger. She’s like one of those big red lollipops you get at the bank-- super sugary and a little too sweet. It tastes good but it’s not good for you.

Let me paint you a picture…

Music

Act I: Nancy’s BFF story

The house is quiet and my faithful cat companion Calvin is curled up next to me. With my coffee cup in hand and my laptop glowing in front of me I’m ready to start my day.

Bird chirping/morning sfx

I’m getting an early start because I’m excited to dive into a new project. A course I’m creating to talk about High Functioning Anxiety. And I am pumped to dive in.

Music shift

But… the new project joy doesn’t last very long. Before I can even open my web browser my Monger pops into my head. "You have no clue where to start," she sneers.

In a bid to quiet my Monger and find a starting place, I Google High Functioning Anxiety.

Keyboard tapping sfx

The first person to grab my attention is an anxiety expert. I click over to her website… and immediately my Monger starts talking again. "Her site looks so professional! She uses better buzz words than you do. Look, she says that she cured her anxiety!!! You keep saying you can’t cure anxiety but she says she has, so what is wrong with you!"

Then… like the other little devil on my shoulder

my BFF jumps up: "You can’t cure anxiety!” she screams, “That’s BS and you know it. I mean, who does this woman think she is describing anxiety that way—does she even know what anxiety is!?! Good grief, she did a terrible job. You are going to kick her ass. Your course will be 10000 times better-- just wait and see!"

Ok... I think. Surfing the internet is not helping. I’m just going to do a brain dump and write everything I know about HFA. I open up Word and start brainstorming.

And UGH there’s my Monger again: "This is a mess. At this rate this process is going to take FOREVER. You are never going to get this course done!”

"Ok, Ok that’s enough," says my BFF, "We have PLENTY of time. In fact, let's grab some cheese and crackers. All that mentally energy

and work deserves some food!!”

Sfx run downstairs, munch munch

After a few cheese and crackers, I return to my office, fortified and ready to dive back in. But the tug of war between my Monger and my BFF continues.

"Cheese and crackers—it isn't even lunchtime," says my Monger, "If you worked more you’d get more accomplished. At this rate we might get the course done next year!!"

And then of course, my BFF speaks her mind "We worked all morning, researching and writing. And you need brain food for this project! Protein and carbs are good for you.”

This is how it goes... back and forth, one chiming in then the other arguing on and on until I can't take it anymore!

I get stuck in this dynamic a lot. I hate that I get stuck here. I’m embarrassed that I get stuck here.

Beat

My Monger gets so loud beating me down that I get relief by listening to my BFF. She does one of 2 things. One, she encourages me to stop working and indulge in something chocolate, a glass of wine or some Real Housewives. Or two, she demonstrates how she always has my back, by beating up the other people I’m comparing myself to.

This is where I lived for a long time, jumping back and forth between those two voices. With just a little push from the Monger, the BFF can cross over the line from self-care to self-destruction in a second.

So how do we separate out those voices and really learn to take care of our whole selves. How can we tune out the anxious WWE wrestling match that’s always going on between the Monger and the BFF?

Act II: Jill Stark

Jill: When I was growing up in Scotland, my parents they used to worry that I would get hit by a car because I was literally reading a book as I was crossing the street. I was one of those nerdy kids. And I was always writing stories.

NANCY VO: This is Jill Stark. She’s a writer, mental health advocate, and author of three books about mental health.

Jill: I think storytelling is a very powerful vehicle for connection and for making people feel less alone. And, and feel comforted that their experiences are shared experiences.

NANCY VO: Jill was always sort of an anxious kid.

Jill: I just worried about everything. And you know, beyond the point that you would say, was kind of routine worries for a child like I would, if my mum went out for dinner with friends. And she wasn't back by a time that I had thought she'd be home, but I'd be standing at the window, waiting for her, convinced that she's, you know, died in a car crash.

Jill: I worried about everything from the width of my hips to like, nuclear war. I was worried about global warming in the 80s, before it was even known.

NANCY VO: And Jill’s anxiety was… BIG SURPRISE… accompanied by a loud Monger voice.

Jill: I have an inner critic, a cross between Regina George from Mean girls and nurse ratchet from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

So she’s mean and cutting and sometimes witty and hilarious, but you know,

Jill: pretty, pretty mean.

NANCY VO: As an adult the inner critic that stoked Jill’s anxiety-- it didn’t go away. But as she got older and moved from her native Scotland to her now-home in Australia-- she found other ways to cope. To quiet the nagging feeling that she didn’t quite fit in.

Jill: Alcohol gives us permission in our minds, to behave in a certain way.

Jill: It's sort of like, this sort of invisibility cloak, this sort of protective shield that we wrap around ourselves, and it's somehow going to give us these super powers of confidence and wit and conversational skills.

Jill: For me, alcohol was kind of this gateway to belonging and to being seen as this fun party girl who fit in, when really that's just a myth.

Beat/Music

Jill: I was about to turn 35. I had woken up on New Year's Day 2011 with a hangover that I honestly thought was going to kill me it was so awful.

Jill: But I had a pretty violent panic attack as I was in my car driving to go to McDonald's, to try and find some comfort for my pain. I just had this real sort of sense of something has to give here. I mean, I don't identify as an alcoholic, I wasn't someone who was, you know, waking up and craving a drink. But I was certainly someone who relied on alcohol very much in social situations.

Jill: But when I woke up with that hangover, in 2011, I just there was, you know, when you, you have that voice inside you that instinctive kind of guiding internal voice that is always there, but we often ignore it, we particularly can often ignore it if we pour alcohol in it and try to block it out. But it was starting to get louder with that hangover saying something has to change. You can't go on like this. You've been doing this since you're 13 years old. And it wasn't working for me anymore.

NANCY VO: At the time, Jill was a journalist, specifically a health reporter. And she had actually done a lot of reporting on alcohol consumption in Australia.

It’s a country with a strong drinking culture.

Jill: The thought of not drinking for three months from January to the end of March, which in Australia is summer, you know, and it also included my 35th birthday in that period, the idea of not drinking for three months, absolutely terrified me.

Jill: So I decided to give it a crack.

NANCY VO: Jill started blogging about her experience of giving up alcohol. And her editor at the paper suggested that at the end of all of it, she should write an article about everything she’d been through. But there was a catch. Jill would have to out herself as a health reporter with an unhealthy relationship to drinking.

Jill: It was just this complete like, cognitive dissonance like this complete disconnect between what I was writing and my own lived experience. I was really nervous.

Jill: I had really good contacts in that space, some of the most senior people in the country who were advising the Prime Minister on, on Australia's drinking guidelines, and these are like really clever neuroscientists and addiction medicine specialists, who had been my contacts, and all of the sudden I was outing myself as part of the problem.

Tense music

Jill: The night that it went to press, as I was leaving the newsroom on the Saturday afternoon, my editor said to me, as I was walking out the door, enjoy your last night of anonymity and kind of laughed, and I was just like, oh, what the hell have I done.

Beat

And sure enough, the next day, everything just went absolutely crazy,

Jill: I had more comments and emails, and feedback on that piece than anything I've ever written in my career.

NANCY VO: It turns out that the radical honesty of Jill’s article really resonated with people. She was tapping into her own self-loyalty. And it really paid off. Not only did she learn a lot about herself by not drinking, she got to write her first published book all about it.

Jill: High sobriety was more than anything, a journey of self discovery.

NANCY VO: It’s pretty common for the BFF to encourage us to use alcohol to escape. When she was writing High Sobriety, Jill realized that numbing out with alcohol to cope with anxiety kept the Monger in her strong.

Jill: If my greatest fear is being left alone, and outside of the group, then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy that I try to act in ways that will prove like see, I am defective, and unlovable because everyone left me, because I'm trying to prove this theory by behaving in ways that push people away.

Jill: So that's the way that I used alcohol.

Beat/music

Jill: We do often use comfort, whether it's food or alcohol or shopping, as a way to give us comfort, but it's a tricky one, I find that quite a very difficult balance to strike between knowing when you do need to just eat a tub of ice cream and watch Netflix, and that's the best thing for you, and when that is actually avoidance, or is actually harming you and it's learning to know yourself, and know when you're actually sliding into avoidance and almost self harm in what you're doing.

Jill: The more that you know about yourself, the more you can tell the difference between those two states.

NANCY VO: For Jill, part of learning to be self-loyal and tell the difference between self-compassion and self-sabotage, meant leaning in to listen to the voice of her inner child. Especially when she’s going through a tough time with her mental health.

Jill: I was walking around this big park near my place. And I just was walking and walking and crying. And listening to music and a song by Lady Gaga kind of came on. And I just felt this part of me, this little child part of me, that was kind of lost through this fog of depression, just speaking to me say, “I want to dance,” because she heard the music, and she wanted to dance. And I looked around and I was like, can't dance. We're in the middle of the park, people walking their dogs, people running, people everywhere. And then I just thought fuck it, and I ran into the middle of this field, or the middle of the park, and just had a silent disco for one. Because like, really, who cares! Like people were walking past and I'm dancing like, but who cares. And that moment of connection to that to really listening to what that little child said and find meaning in it was so powerful. And that's what I go back to again, and again. And again, when I'm really drowning. And I'm really feeling like I can't do this.

NANCY VO: In that moment, Jill listened to the little inner child voice inside her and tapped into a physical way to release her emotions, instead of numbing herself out.

Jill: And sometimes I need to put boundaries in it, because maybe she does want to eat the second time of ice cream. And maybe it's like, actually not what you need darling. And so it's being able to kind of connect with what she wants. And sometimes yes, let's, let's indulge, let's sit down and watch six hours of Netflix. But tomorrow, we're going to put on our shoes, and we're going to go out for a walk and we're going to eat some greens and like it's just having that balance.

Jill: I need to parent her. And when I'm drinking, I don't have the skills.

NANCY VO: Now Jill’s able to tap into what that scared little kid inside of her needs. Physically and emotionally. Because she knows herself, she can differentiate between self-compassion and self-sabotage.

Jill: I was looking at right now on my coffee table a picture of me as a four year old that I keep all my coffee table. And I speak to her and remind to remind me that that little child felt lost and alone. But she's shy. She's not anymore. And I'm here.

Music out

Act III: Nancy does ASK

NANCY VO: What Jill calls her inner child, I might call my inner voice of self-loyalty, my Biggest Fan. And learning to tune into that voice over the noise of the Monger and the BFF’s constant bickering is one of my tried and true techniques for separating self-compassionate actions from self-indulgent ones.

Music

NANCY VO: Last we left off, I was witnessing a battle royale between my Monger and my BFF. All triggered by working on a project that initially, I was excited to get started on.

So as the dust settles, finally, I decide it is time to practice ASK.

I acknowledge my feelings: inferior, uneasy, fear, excited, timid, passionate, hopeful.

I Slow Down and Get into My Body. I put on One Night in Bangkok, one of my favorite 80s tunes that always makes me dance and brings back good memories, and I do a little dance standing in my office.

One Night in Bangkok plays?

I Kindly pull back and see the big picture. With my hand over my heart, I say to myself, "Ok, Sweet pea, we want to write this course, we know a lot about High Functioning Anxiety.

We are passionate about it, and we can help people who are struggling. So let's do this. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. You know this stuff! And you can figure out HOW to organize it later. Let's get the outline done. Let's dive in.

I set the timer for 20 minutes, and I go to work.

Beat

Now I would love to say I sat down and wrote, and the Monger and BFF were silent—but I would be lying. The key to quieting them for me is not letting them get out of control. I rope them in as quickly as possible by practicing ASK, taking regular breaks, and setting timers. And if they get out of control, I take a pause and listen to what I really need, not what’s going to numb me out.

Outro

That’s it for this week! In next week’s episode we’re going to spend some time with the final character in the Happier Approach cast. The voice that really has my back.

My wise, self-loyal Biggest Fan.

That’s next time on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy VO: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Jill Stark for speaking with us today! You can connect with Jill on Instagram @jillstark_, on Twitter @jillastark, and through her website at https://jillstark.com.au/

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music out

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Season 2 Episode 2: The Monger

In this episode, we take a trip into Nancy’s brain and learn all about her inner self-critique, her Monger.

In this episode, we take a trip into Nancy’s brain and learn all about her inner self-critique. The voice that tells her every day that all the things she’s doing just aren’t good enough. Nancy calls that voice The Monger.

The Monger is at the root of why Nancy started the Happier Approach. She realized that her Monger’s voice is particularly loud. Nancy wonders: do other people, people who really seem to have it together, have loud Mongers too? To answer that question Nancy speaks with Kati Morton, a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, author, and YouTube creator. Kati tells us about her own struggles with the inner critic and gives us some tips on how to quiet that screechy Monger voice. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• All about The Monger

• Tips for recognizing the Monger's voice and quieting her.

• Resources and advice from Kati Morton.

• Kati Morton, LMFT holds a Master’s in Clinical Psychology from Pepperdine University and is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She runs a private practice in Santa Monica, CA. Over the past eight years, Kati has leveraged social media to share mental health information worldwide through video. Her specialties include working with individuals experiencing eating disorders and self-harming behaviors, although she addresses all things related to mental health. 

  Kati is well known for her YouTube channel which now has over 1 Million Subscribers and over 75 million views. In addition to Kati’s YouTube channel and strong presence on social media, she has appeared on KTLA’s Morning News, E! News, CBS The Doctors, Fox 11 Good Day LA, and was showcased in Europe’s highest circulated magazine, Glamour UK. She was also a 2019 Shorty Award finalist as well as a 2019 Streamy nominee. Kati’s first book, Are u ok?: A Guide to Caring for Your Mental Health was released in December 2018.

  Kati’s passion is to increase awareness about mental health. Her online community has expanded to all major internet platforms, allowing her to answer mental health questions from her followers around the world. She hopes by doing this, the global community can push for better services worldwide and remove the stigma associated with getting help.

Resources mentioned:

• Go to katimorton.com.

• Check out Kati's YouTube channel

• Pre-order Kati's forthcoming book Traumatized out September 7, 2021:

• Follow Kati on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Kati Morton: You know we overreact. So when, and we all if you’re honest with yourself will pay attention you’ll know when you’re overreacting but sometimes we double down. I am fully overreacting. I’m going all in.

Intro

Music

Nancy : Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

In our last episode-- the first episode of our new season WOOHOO!-- I told the story of how the Happier Approach came to be. Where it all started. If you’re a first time listener-- or you missed the episode and you’re curious!-- check it out.

But today we’re going to get very close and personal with the little… eh, little’s not quite right. How about…GINORMOUS! nagging ice in the back of my head that tells me I’m not good enough all day long. I call that ice: my Monger.

Doug It's as if you're in a pool. And there's lifeguards all around you watching you and they're gonna blow the whistle at you as soon as you do something wrong. But there's no lifeguards, and no one's watching you.

Nancy: That’s how my husband Doug describes my Monger. And that is totally accurate. I call her a Monger because she spreads propaganda. She’s like a horrible school marm wrapping my knuckles with a ruler whenever I make a mistake. My Monger points out my insecurities and judges everything I’m doing wrong.

Nancy : My Monger is pretty much at the root of why I started the Happier Approach. Whenever one of the other characters comes into my head, like the BFF or the Biggest Fan, they’re always coming in to rescue me from that snarly, screech-y Monger ice.

Beat/Music

Nancy : I mentioned this in our last episode, but I have a particularly loud Monger. She pops up at the most annoying times, and seizes on the littlest things. The things I should be taking joy in.

Like… making Cornbread Story.

Music

Act I: The Monger in Action

Cornbread Story : So the other night I made chili and we had cornbread with the chili. And I always make the cornbread into muffins. And so it was, they were in the muffin tins. And no matter how much I grease, the muffin tins, the cornbread comes out all crumbly. And to be clear, my husband nor I care about crumbly cornbread, in fact, we even tend to crop up the cornbread and put it in the chili. So it really does not matter in the scheme of things that the corn bread is not whole. But it is something that my mom grew goes crazy about that that is not whole.

Nancy : Yup. My monger goes crazy when I make cornbread. It seems silly, but it’s totally true!

Cornbread Story : so as I was trying to take the knife and pull the corn bread out of the muffin tins, my mother was just going crazy with this as wrong. And I noticed my anxiety getting higher and higher and higher. And I kept saying to myself, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We don't even use, you know, we crumble the corn bread up, this really doesn't matter. But that didn't help. Like it didn't matter that I was trying to rationalize with my mongar.

Nancy : This is one of the hardest lessons for me to learn about my Monger. When I try to dissect her, or get rid of her by rationalizing… it doesn’t matter! She just comes back into my head, stronger than ever, to tell me again how I’m doing it wrong.

Beat

Nancy : So in terms of this cornbread quote unquote disaster, it doesn’t matter that my husband and I don’t even care what the cornbread looks like. This is the actual problem:

Cornbread Story: It is that I can't get them to be that shape.

Nancy : That perfect, pillowy, muffin shape-- for those of you keeping track at home.

Cornbread Story : And so therefore, I'm doing it wrong. And that was the message of this is my mongers messages usually around, you're doing it wrong. That's a common theme for me. So the fact that here, it had nothing to do with the fact that practically, we don't care about what the cornbread looks like it had to do with the fact that it should look a certain way. And I should be able to make it look perfect. And that I couldn't do that no matter how much I greased the tin or how well I did it was a sign that I was a major loser.

Music out

Nancy : Wow. A major loser. Because the shape of my muffins are a little wonky. Even I can see, that’s HARSH.

Beat

That leaves me circling around this question that I’ve actually wondered about a lot. Why is my Monger so loud around the littlest things? Am I alone here, doomed to obsess over cornbread for eternity, or do other people, people who really seem to have it together, have loud mongers too?

Music lead-in to Act II

Act II: Kati Morton

Kati Morton : Let me turn on the camera here.

Nancy: Okay, my cat is crawling around. I seem to be this is Gus. Okay, so let's just go go. Hi,

This is Kati Morton. She’s a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist... AND a super popular Youtube creator.

Kati Morton : I, to be honest, it's gonna sound kind of funny, but I always get bored at work. And I used to have had a bunch of different jobs. You know, I've been a waitress, a salesperson, a HR rep, I've done all sorts of things. And over the years, every job I took, I was always kind of bored of it. And therapy just never gets boring. People are fascinating. And it's it's a real privilege to get to be on the path with someone as they work to better themselves.

Nancy : On her YouTube channel Kati covers all kinds of topics around mental health.

Kati Morton : What I do on YouTube is just help to educate and empower people help them understand something, maybe they can't understand or decode what therapists say why we say what we say a certain way, or help them better understand a diagnosis, treatment, all that stuff.

Nancy : Kati’s been making videos on YouTube for almost 10 years now.

Kati Morton : Like I came of age in college. When Facebook first started. I had MySpace, so get on my level.

Nancy : Even though she knew her videos would make mental health more approachable to a bunch of people, the task of bringing therapy concepts to YouTube seemed… a little out of her comfort zone.

Kati Morton : I was like, absolutely not. That is weird. I have no, I don't want to be on camera. That's super uncomfortable. What do I do with my hands? I don't even know what if people don't like me.

Nancy : But the more she thought about it-- and the more her then-boyfriend now-husband nudged her towards the idea-- she warmed up to it.

Kati Morton : And, yeah, about six months later, I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But I'll only film one video a week. And that's how it was born.

Nancy : From there Kati built up an audience of over one million subscribers. I know! But even with so much success on her YouTube channel, even she struggled with that nagging ice of self-doubt sometimes.

Nancy : Do you have a loud inner critic ice? personally?

Kati Morton : Yes, I talk pretty candidly or I try to within reason about my own therapeutic work, because I've been in out of therapy since I was 15, which I think is a very important component of being a mental professionals like, not only do I need to know what it's like on the other side, but I also need to know how hard it is to do that internal work.

Kati Morton : I know how hard that is, because I've done it. So I definitely am the type a perfectionist type of person. I never feel like I'm doing enough, right or it's not good enough. And that's a really hard thing to do when you're creating

Nancy : Speaking from person experience, my Monger can be pretty loud when I’m working on creative projects. It was the same way for Kati.

Kati Morton : I think that that is kind of what comes out of that for me is like, Who am I to do this? Well, I don't even know what I'm talking about. People aren't gonna listen, this is stupid. You know, it's kind of that talking down. But the thing that I've realized in the work that I'm trying to do, personally, is to say to myself, in the nicest way possible. Shut up. Stop it. You're only being a jerk to yourself. And this helps no one and it only makes you feel bad. And so it's hard and I sometimes get caught in it, but I've gotten better at recognizing when it's happening.

Kati Morton : So anyways, yeah, I definitely have my own inner critic, and I battle her every day. And she's very stubborn. She's the worst.

Nancy : Once I started embracing that, in my own therapy, practice of being like, I don't know, I mean, I'm just doing the best I can with what I have. And I'm not this person on the hill that has it all figured out. But I start so I call that inner critic ice a mongar. Because mongar spread propaganda, and that is what the mongar is doing. And so, the reason I got into this work personally, is because I believed I realized I believed I needed that ice to get anything done. Like I needed the shame to motivate me.

Kati Morton : First of all, I love monger the spreading propaganda. Because I always tell myself and my audience, a thought is not a fact. Yes. So don't think your thoughts are facts. And then if you're looking for evidence, another thought doesn't is not evidence.

Kati Morton : I think it's kind of the No pain, no gain societal norm, that we have all subscribed to it, for better or for worse, because we think that in order to be successful, or to be valued. We think we have to suffer for it.

Nancy : But I realized, you know, I have a very loud inner critic, you know, my husband calls her the demon within and, and I realized, yes, I think everyone has an inner critic, but not everyone has that demon ice. Why do you think people have louder ices than others?

Kati Morton : I think part of it is the way we were raised. And I know people are like therapists always blame childhood. Well, that's because a lot of shit happens in childhood.

Nancy : Amen to that.

Kati Morton : And I think that we learn from our parents and our caregivers and our family. That, like, I'll even be honest, I can remember times and my mom kind of like talking herself down about things like,

Music

Kati Morton : I used to love how much faith she'd have in me like we were just talking the other day about how I won this coloring contest. And I loved to color as a kid, but I'm not a drawer, my brother's the artistic drawer one, and I can fill it in, okay. And part of this current contest was, oh, he had to draw something new to color it in. And I told her I don't draw. And she's like, Well, yeah, you can just make a scribble and then make sense of it, you could do that. And she was always at what you can do that, yeah, just do it. With herself she wasn't. And so it's kind of like this mixed message around like, I can't, so you have to. So I internalize that is like, Oh, I have to be the one that rises above like the hero child like does everything perfectly, and all of that. And I think that for a lot of us, we have different stories either our parents told us things weren't good, or teachers or we were bullied or things like that. And we internalize that.

Beat

Kati Morton : I think that this inner critic, this monger this, this shit talker, looks through all those lenses constantly in therapy is like, No, no, no, let's take those lenses away. They're not doing it you can't even see anymore. And it's really hard to do that then because we feel so scared. Like, personally, when I do something that's against my inner critic. I think you're just going to regret this. It'd be terrible. It's going to blow up.

Nancy : How do you? How do we fix it? What are some strategies you have for overcoming this? Or quieting this loud inner critic ice?

Kati Morton : That's the crazy wonderful, beautiful thing about therapy is therapy is almost like an art because there's so many different ways in it's like we have a door with like 17 locks on it. If you open one of them, they all open and so there's all these different ways in

Kati Morton : I can visualize all those locks. Like I have all these different keys and one key might be easier for you to find. So don't think that this is just the only way in. But for me, I always thought that I needed to shut her up. She was abusive. She was terrible. I hated that part of myself which just spun into like a snowball of more shame and guilt and shit talking

Music

Kati Morton : But my inner critic is actually scared me. She's a younger me, she's a little, she's worried about future me, she's trying to protect me, it actually comes out of a love and a need for protection that she tries to keep me down to help me fit where I already have fit. Not knowing that I could outgrow that and want to move into something else. And I think when I start to view that in that lens through that lens, I can see you're just throwing a tantrum. And what do we do when a child is tantruming? Sure, we can reprimand them. And that's what I've been doing. For years, I've been reprimanding her. How dare you, you've embarrassed me Stop it. But what we know is actually more effective. Anybody who has had children, if you can help them to speak, to share in some way, what they're going through,

Kati Morton : We're looking at like a branch on the tree that has grown and I need to track it back. Because chances are, at least for in my experience, and for my inner critic, or inner monger. She is just worried. And she's stressed about letting people down and hurting herself. And so if I can acknowledge that, then that's the start of the work, right? Because then I can say, Well, how can I assuage her fears about this? How can I calm her? What are things that could be soothing?

Music out

Nancy : Heck. Yes. Acknowledging the feelings that my Monger is pointing to even if they seem irrational-- THAT’S been a game changer for me when it comes to communicating with her. Like Kati said, usually my Monger is just scared that I’m not going to be okay. And I have to remind her that she-- we-- are safe. Even if we’re not perfect all the time.

Act III

Nancy : Let’s return to the Great Cornbread Disaster of 2021, shall we?

Beat

Nancy : After I had my initial freakout about the shape of my cornbread muffins not turning out perfectly even though they were just going to be all crumbled up into a big bowl of chili… I took some time to think. To tap into what my Monger was really upset about.

Cornbread Story : And then finally I had the AHA of Oh, it isn't, it isn't about what I'm upset about is the fact that I can't do it perfectly that that they aren't looking perfect.

Cornbread Story : But once I was able to figure out Aha, it is this idea of it has to be perfect. I was like okay, but it's not perfect. I didn't do it perfectly. It's not going to be perfect. I'm going to be okay with that. And the minute I kind of realized, Oh, I'm just it isn't perfect. I'm okay with that was a huge, everything kind of relaxed and my mongar kind of went quiet.

Nancy : It wasn’t rationalizing or trying to reason with my Monger that calmed her down. Just like if she was a little kid who got upset about a big scary monster under the bed-- telling her THE MONSTER ISN’T REAL DUMMY isn’t going to make her any less afraid. In fact it’d probably make her more upset!

Cornbread Story : So I say, Ah, I don't care that the corn bread isn't perfect, because it doesn't have to be perfect because we're just going to crumble it in the chili. But in reality it is.

Beat

Nancy : Instead, I looked at her fear, and accepted it. I’m afraid I’m not perfect? Well, turns out: I’m not! Once I let myself be okay with that little fact, the Monger quieted down.

Cornbread Story : You're right. The cornbread isn't perfect, and that does drive me crazy, but it's not. So we’ve got to move on.

Outro

Nancy : It is hard giving myself a break like that. Even taking the time to sit with myself and really understand why my Monger is being so loud. It’s a constant process. And I’m getting better at it. The more I practice, the more I have faith that there will be less stressful batches of cornbread in my baking future. Pillowy muffins be damned!

Nancy : Cornbread is such a small example, but because it’s kind of ridiculous, I think it’s a good way to show how the Monger can show up in the silliest places where you least expect her and wreak hac on your feelings of self-worth.

Nancy : But now at least, I know that even if my cornbread muffins crumble, instead of pushing my Monger away by rationalizing my disappoint, I can acknowledge my Monger’s fears and let her know that sometimes it’s okay if things aren’t totally perfect, 100% of the time. I am human! I make crumbly cornbread! And that is O K.

Beat/music

That’s it for this week’s episode! Next time we’re going to focus on another familiar frenemy of the Happier Approach. The ice that’s always trying to save me from my Monger, but butting in with a little too much leniency.

My let’s-procrastinate-all-day-because-you-deserve-it, have that third glass of wine, hit the snooze button for the fifth time this morning, conspirator in all things self-indulgent: my BFF.

That’s next time on the Happier Approach.

Music out

Nancy : The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot.

Special thanks to Kati Morton for speaking with us for this episode. She has a new book coming out in September called Traumatized that you can pre-order now. You can subscribe to her YouTube channel to hear more of her brilliance, or go to www.katimorton.com to learn more about her work. Links are in the show notes.

The Happier Approach will be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care, until then.

Music out

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Season 2 Episode 1: Hi I'm Nancy

In this episode, the first of our new season, we go back to the beginning to learn how The Happier Approach all started.

This is a great episode to listen to if you're just learning about the podcast. If you're a longtime listener, you'll get the in-depth story of how Nancy started her journey toward self-loyalty, catalyzed by a public talk at a wine shop, as well as a personal tragedy.

You'll hear from all the major characters in Nancy's life, her husband Doug, her best friend Mary, her mom Jane, and even her dad Ted. Each of them remembers, along with Nancy, how she came to recognize her Monger and her BFF, and rally her Biggest Fan to start her journey toward self-loyalty.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The origins of The Happier Approach.

• A primer on the major characters of The Happier Approach: the Monger, the BFF, and The Biggest Fan.

• The story of the beginning of Nancy's personal journey toward self-loyalty.

Resources mentioned:

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Doug: If I could say anything to the monger and have it actually listen to me it would be go away about certain topics like go away about making bread. We don’t need to have monger-bread every time you make bread. So I’d be like, Monger, get on your train and go to wherever breadland is and pic someone else.

NANCY : Hey guys, it’s me. Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to a new season of The Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.

Music

If you’re a longtime listener, this season is gonna be just a little bit different. Think of it like a journey. I’m Dorothy and we’re not in Kansas anymore. You’re following me down the yellow brick road to the magical land of self-loyalty and along the way we’re gonna run into all our old friends and frenemies: The Monger, the BFF, and the Biggest Fan.

And if you’re a new listener who’s like, “Uh… self-loyal-who?” and “What’s a Monger!?” No worries! Because we’re gonna start the story of The Happier Approach all the way at the beginning.

So click your ruby slippers, put Toto in your picnic basket, and follow me.

Act I: Doug meets Nancy’s monger

Nancy So you're gonna hold your phone up like this? off to the side to the speaker. Yeah, like, here's speaker.

Fade under

NANCY: This is a guy who knows me really well.

Doug Well, I'm Doug Harris. Husband of Nancy Jane Smith, her nearest and dearest, if you will.

NANCY: Doug’s seen me at my best…

Doug My first impression of Nancy Jane Smith. Was... gotta go with the laugh?

[insert Nancy laugh]

Doug Yeah, I mean, how can you just enjoy it? How can you not be attracted to that laugh?

Nancy You're so sweet. [laughs]

NANCY : And… he’s seen me at my worst.

Nancy How and when did you get introduced to my monger?

Doug

mean, I think as soon as you meet Nancy's monger, when she's signing the check, she's like, how much should I tip this person? I know what they deserve. And I know what I would do if I was them. But I'm just gonna write this number. I'm like, great. You did a great job. You've done a wonderful service to this server. Excellent. But do you think it's the right number? Yes, I agree

NANCY : My monger is the mean ice in my head that makes me second guess myself. The obsessive part of me. The part of me that tells me I’ll never be good enough.

Doug I understand that I would go with a big heavy weighted blanket that keeps you down from moving anywhere

Nancy So what are some of my tells? You said deep sighs but

Doug mostly, they're physical like, rocking back and forth, usually. She'll rock back and forth, like 18 inches, on a big monger day.

NANCY : And my monger? She can be REALLY loud.

Doug It's as if you're in a pool. And there's lifeguards all around you watching you and they're gonna blow the whistle at you as soon as you do something wrong. But there's no lifeguards, and no one's watching you.

NANCY : For a lot of my adult life, that’s exactly how I felt. I had this internal commentary constantly telling me how I could improve myself and what I was doing wrong. Telling me that if I wasn’t careful the outside world would find out what a lazy, anti-social, obsessive failure I was.

Music

NANCY : When I became a counselor I was fascinated with the idea of the inner critic, the ice of self-doubt and criticism. AKA the ice I ended up calling The Monger.

When I started writing and presenting about the Monger, everything clicked. People resonated with that obsessive ice of self-doubt. I wasn’t alone. Other people had mongers too.

Sound design (wine shop)

One day, I did a presentation about the Monger at a local wine shop. Going into the presentation I felt excited. Super confident because I was about to share a Monger antidote with my audience, a ice I called The Biggest Fan. She was the Monger’s opposite: a wise cheerleader who always had my back. By listening to the Biggest Fan I could make my Monger quiet.

After my presentation a friend came up to me and said, “I loved that presentation. But I’m not going to do anything you said to do because I NEED my Monger. I need that mean ice or I won’t get anything done.”

And BOOM.

There it was. The belief that I’d unconsciously held for so long. I needed that ice. I needed the Monger. I felt a mix of relief and shame. Relief that I wasn’t the only one who believed I needed the Monger, and shame because I felt like I was presenting about something I didn’t fully understand.

That moment was enough to make that Monger antidote ice, my Biggest Fan, get quiet again. I stopped talking about the Monger. And for a while, I let her run my life.

Beat

That is, until my dad got sick.

Music

Act II: Ted

Video Nancy: Okay Teddy

Video It is July 19th 2015. Mom: Is this on?

NANCY : This is an interview I recorded with my dad, Ted Smith, a few years after he was diagnosed with Parkinsons and dementia.

Video N: What comes to mind when you think about growing up in Columbus?

Video Ted: living on a farm and working on a farm

NANCY : I wanted to record some of his memories, to freeze him in time as the larger-than-life character I’d always known.

Beat

Video how did you meet your wife and how did you know she was the one?

Video I met my wife in a sunday school class at united methodist church Mom: cause i wore the pink dress? I don't know I just got the impression that she was the one. Nancy: that's such a romantic answer. Screw you LAUGHS.***

NANCY : Of course, my mom’s one of the people who knew dad best. And loved him, idiosyncrasies and all.

Nancy Did you kill the bottle?

Jane Yeah, but it was not. It wasn't full.

Is this on?

Fade under

Jane My name is Jane Smith.

Jane Nancy Jane Smith is my dear darling daughter.

Beat

Jane Ted was three years older than I was, and my sister was two years older and she and her friends. They were all all about Ted, and he dated all of them. In fact, I counted, I think 20 people that he dated before he dated me.

Jane And Ted knew what he wanted. And he, he had, he had his rules.

Jane everything had to be done. quote unquote, perfect, you know,

Nancy to his expectations

Jane I will say that he was very direct. And he always spoke his mind. And

Nancy even if it was inappropriate,

Jane Oh Yes Definitely

Nancy Laughs

Beat

Doug I remember Ted being a really good guy. I remember him being old and proud.

NANCY : That’s my husband Doug again. He and my dad had a good, odd couple kind of relationship. They were sort of opposites. But they got along really well.

Doug he always wished for the good old days back when he was mowing the yard or whatever you did at that house for fun. But very proud and never quite good enough. Which was bizarre. It never quite made sense to me, I'm like, you're a fully accomplished man.

Video Well... I never really accomplished that much I guess. For somebody to look at me and say you're this person, I don't think I've ever done that. I don't know, I don't wanna be like that.

NANCY : My dad got sick around the same time I had that revelation about my Monger. You know, the one where I thought I needed a mean ice in my head to survive? And spending so much time with my dad, I started to recognize the ice of the Monger in him.

Video you have to watch out. People are not honest. So you have to protect yourself, try to raise your kids so they can protect themselves and you protect yourself.

NANCY : Seeing the Monger in my dad broke my heart. Here was a man I adored. He was in his late 70s, strong, intelligent, resourceful, and kind. And all he could talk about were his failures.

Jane he was very rigid,

NANCY : That’s my mom again.

Nancy even like, we'd go to fancy resorts, and he would pull out his bran flakes and yet Grape Nuts. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he would eat that instead of eating the buffet or whatever, cuz that's what he ate.

Nancy he couldn't eat the crap that was at the buffet, right?

Music

Nancy So what do you remember about his dad's illness?

Jane his illness was long, I mean, long standing.

Doug Yeah, it's like, Ted was the sun and then the sun went out. And so Nancy didn't know what to do. She was a solar powered individual

Nancy : My dad’s death brought me to my knees. It was… devastating. He was a guiding force for me and without him I felt lost.

Nancy because dad the grief over dad was so great. That for the first time. Yeah, for the first time, I couldn't ignore my feelings. Yeah.

Beat

Jane I get a lot of tears in my eyes, you know, and when I look at the Cardinals out, you know, I know that Ted is there, his spirit, you know, I, you know, I know that he is with me. And even though I tell him that I wish he was here. And, and I, but, but he isn't, but I know he's here in spirit.

NANCY : After my dad died I decided a way to honor him was to figure out once and for all how to quiet this Monger ice. This ice that had plagued him, and tortured me. I was going to find a way to shut down the Monger once and for all.

Music

Act III: The birth of the happier approach

Mary Teddy came in my office. And literally, I don't even know if he said hi. He said, You need to break up your boyfriend.

Mary Oh, I started laughing when I thought about this because I'm like, I was like, Who is this guy?

NANCY : This is Mary, one of my oldest, best friends. She knew my dad too, and she watched me struggle after he died.

Nancy So do you see some of him in me?

Mary You think [Laugh]

Mary yes the rules and the ices and the same I'm sure beating yourself up even though to me he seemed like this you know like my dad we want to see them as this big competent person but um but I think he was probably driven by the demons that you are as well with you know, go go go and you got to do better all the time.

Nancy Did you see a link between that and me writing the book?

Mary I think it brought the mongar front and center and brought it to life.

Mary I think since it kind of controlled you and him now that he was gone.

Mary You needed to dissect it and really bring it bring it to life it could no longer basically just go unanswered.

NANCY : My grief over my Dad was all-consuming and writing the Happier Approach was one way I could channel it. I told myself that if I was going to write a book I was going to be 100% honest. No more pretending that something might work when it wasn’t working for me. I was going to own how hard self-acceptance was.

Mary I think you told me you're going to kind of lay out the ices in your head.

Mary And then it was so cool, because you really did dissect your, your three parts of you that are constantly talking

NANCY : Those three ices: the mean Monger, the overindulgent BFF, and the wise Biggest Fan, are the main characters in the Happier Approach. AKA the ices that are constantly cross-talking in my head. And getting to know them has been the key to overcoming my Monger.

Music

Nancy So how would you say do you think it's made a difference in me?

Mary Yes.

Nancy I was a little nerus you were gonna be like, No,

Mary no, I definitely do.

Mary I think you do accept yourself more and see, you know, who you are in a much better light than you used to.

Beat

Doug I hate to say it wrote itself, because I wasn't the one typing it by any means. I was just sitting downstairs and she's typing upstairs. Probably crying.

NANCY : Cue my husband Doug again.

Doug , like you just dove into your brain, and your intellect your experience, and you put it down.

Nancy But looking back, it was it did kind of write itself. Like I felt like it. Like sometimes I'll read that book and be like, Oh, my God, I can't believe I wrote this, you know, because it, I think some of that was just I was so all encompassed by grief that I don't remember the struggle of writing it. But also, my mongar was pretty quiet during that process.

NANCY : THAT was the wildest part of writing the Happier Approach. Even though the characters and the methodology just flew out of me and onto the page, the actual, craziest, part was that the whole time my Monger was: quiet.

Beat

She showed up from time to time but she didn’t stick around long. And I think it’s because while I wrote the book, I was being radically honest with myself. In other words, I was practicing self-loyalty. Finally listening to that wise ice of the Biggest Fan way in the back of my head. And bringing her up to her rightful place: front and center.

Music

NANCY : That’s our quest this season on the Happier Approach: to shine a spotlight on that self-loyal ice. We’re going to get to know each of those cross-talking characters: The Monger, the BFF, and the Biggest Fan. We’ll talk to experts in neuroscience, ex-journalists, and labyrinth-builders to learn how to tap into that wise inner ice of the Biggest Fan, and hop, skip, jump into the magical land of self-loyalty. A place where the Monger is quiet, and the Biggest Fan is queen. I’ll be learning right alongside you. And honestly, I can’t wait to get started.

Music

NANCY : When I had that recent conversation with my mom, she brought out a copy of the Happier Approach, and flipped to the acknowledgements page.

Jane And then I looked up your acknowledgments I thought, Oh, you wrote my mom. You acknowledged me. In your book. You

NANCY : She reminded me who this book, this podcast, the whole Happier Approach is for.

Jane then you said, Thank you for giving me the gifts of roots and wings. And then you said for your dad, you taught me the power, integrity, perseverance and showing up. You were the inspiration for the book. I only wish were here to read it. And I miss you every day.

NANCY : So... thanks dad. And thank you for listening.

Music

Outro

NANCY : The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music by Pod5. And if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes! It actually helps us out a lot. We’ll be back with another episode in two weeks. Take care until then.

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Episode 165: Practicing Self-Loyalty in the New Year - Part 2

In this episode, I’m continuing my conversation with my producer Sean McMullin, going deeper into change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

The beginning of any new year often hyperactivates our “Shoulds.”

I should lose weight.

I should start meditating more.

I should be kinder to myself.

I should put myself out there more.

I should, I should, I should.

I am no stranger to the Shoulds that my Monger promotes every new year. Like clockwork, those shoulds and New Year, New Me attitudes drift away. My Monger always has a heyday with this—convincing me that I was failing.

But the concept of self-loyalty—the notion that true change comes only when we’re loyal to ourselves first—is what changed the game for me… for the better.

In part one of this series on self-loyalty, I talked with my friend and podcast producer, Sean McMullin. We defined self-loyalty and how to bring self-loyalty to the center of your life as you make plans for change in the new year. If you haven’t listened to part one yet, I recommend that you do it before jumping into this one.

Today, I’m continuing my conversation with Sean, going deeper into change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How 2020 and COVID changed our approach to resolutions

• How our image of ourselves, our identities, and our stories can keep us from seeing possibilities

• Upcoming changes for the Happier Approach Podcast

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Sean: I am not the best about self-loyalty. And I think expansiveness as a metaphor of I'm allowing myself this year to not only know what I want but to act on it and allow my person and my needs and my aspirations to expand and fill space

Intro Music

Nancy: Today, I'm continuing my interview with Sean McMullin, my friend, and podcast, producer, talking about change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

If you missed part one, I encourage you to listen to Episode 164 first. In part one, Sean, and I define self loyalty and how to have self loyalty as you make it plans for change in the new year. Often when we have high functioning anxiety, we're so focused on improving and reaching perfection. We forget that true change can only come when we are loyal to ourselves first.

You're listening to the Happier Approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Keep listening to hear how 2020, and COVID changed our approach to resolutions, how our image of ourselves, our identities and stories can keep us from seeing all the possibilities and the upcoming changes for the Happier Approach podcast.

Sean: My big resolution for the entire year. It's a layover from my last years from 2020s theme, which I'll be honest, got completely scrapped because last year kind of got weird.

So I decided to roll it over. The theme was thinking big and I liked that. And then I was kind of like doing some meditation on the subject of thinking big and like, why am I interested in doing this? And then I kind of landed on, I am someone who does not often have aspirations.

And it's so interesting that you and I are talking about these things together because. It's like we're Laurel, Laurel, and Hardy or something like we're like, one of us is the straight man, and I'm not sure which one of it is, which one of us, it is. So aspirations, like allowing myself to think big, allowing myself to have big aspirations was thought.

And then I landed on this word of expansiveness. And so this year's theme is expansiveness. I tend to hide. And not let my needs. I am not the best about self loyalty. Um, I quietly do self loyalty, but then I, I spend a lot of time resentful because I just do what other people want me to do.

And I am such an Enneagram nine. I spend so much time quietly, quietly resenting the world and a seething ball of resentment. As my wife calls me. And I think expansiveness as a metaphor of I'm allowing myself this year to, to not only know what I want, but to act on it and allow my person and my needs and my aspirations to expand and fill space.

This might sound weird for some of you listening. To listen to the white man talk about struggling with holding space. And I am the very aware of the irony of this. And I mean, and I am very aware of, yeah, I want to be very clear on this, that I know that I go to the grocery store and you know, the world is just lays out in front of me and everything I want is given to me and it is, and I own that, right?

Yeah. And I also have some struggles with my relationship with her friends. And like, it can be both of those things at the same time. Um, I'm not saying that like I'm suddenly like a, a men's rights advocate, and I'm was like, my needs are blah, blah. You know, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when I think about something.

I'm allowing myself to let it expand and see what the potential of me as an individual in this world is. And so that goes into the plan for the year. I want to pursue my art on a much deeper and broader level and, and that means acting on it. And that means embracing it and doing something about it.

And so, yeah. I love cozy, quiet little things. I love to sit on the couch and knit and drink tea. I mean, I'm a little old lady and I can also admit that that place of comfort and coziness can hold me back. So

Nancy: yeah. So last year when that was your word,

Sean: because I, so this is true. I did say big things big last year

Nancy: Yeah, you did. Yeah. Okay.

Sean: Okay. I thought so,

Nancy: But you didn't have the accountability pieces of the theme. You just said, this is the theme. Yeah. Thinking big, but there was no smaller chunks of that. Yes. As there are this year. Yeah. Did you lose the theme last year? I mean, I know we have COVID and so it's hard to say like, given that out, but do you think you'd lost it, like lost the focus of it?

Sean: Yes. I did lose the focus. Yes.

Nancy: Kind of got to push to the side.

Sean: Yeah. I mean, I still continue to go back to it as much as I could. Like, I, I continued to say that's what I was doing, but I didn't really do it. I mean, if anything, my life really. Instead of expanding out it very, really contracted in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

Nancy: That could be expansive too

Sean: well. And that's actually one of the things. Yes. Because having all these options and responsibilities, and we talked about your experience over the holiday of not being able to do the things that we always did and what we learned as a result of it, like who are we when all we.

All we have to do is stay home. Who, who do we become? But I think, I think as we're looking towards aspirations and we're looking towards resolutions in this year, 2020 was I think a real opportunity for a lot of us to kind of like take a much closer look at who we are and what we want. And so I'm very interested to see for how 2021 kind of plays out with what we've learned in the last year.

Nancy: Yeah, I agree. It makes me laugh that one of the things I railed against at the beginning of, of COVID quarantine was there were a number of woo people being like, we need this time to, to come into ourselves and, and they were kind of like looking at the positive of COVID. And I was so annoyed. I was just like, this is not positive people.

Like this is a worldwide pandemic and we're all freaking out and yeah. Ooh, this gives us the time to come in and look at ourselves. And part of me was wrong in the sense of, I don't think it was healthy at that point to be like, here's the positive of what's happening. But I do think that is for many people what happened, that that has been a positive.

That a lot me included, like kind of got clear on what's important here. And, and being able to, to shut everything down was kind of nice in some ways. And I think it'll be interesting to see hopefully if by the end of this year, as we, as we opened back up, where do we go? You know, how, how much of this do we retain and how much do we not, which I think is, is fits with the idea of new year's resolutions.

In the sense of a lot of times, we, we want to make these changes. But we don't recognize how hard they are to make and how hard they are to, to keep. And, and we kind of lose the focus to the external world. It'll be interesting to see at the end of this year, since you have it more laid out. Because I'm excited about that, that you have more accountability, more plans, and then that mixed with holding it loosely.

It'll be interesting to see the difference between this year and last year. And I think there was some power in last year. Holding it as loosely as you did, and kind of last year was kind of the chance to try on Sean is an artist. Sean is someone who takes himself seriously. Sean thinks bigger. And just having that noodle around in your head for a year got you to this year to be able to make it more concrete.

Sean: Yeah. Oh, I, I do. I do. I am a, what do they call that? I'm a. I'm a slow boil. They call that. And I think we all are.

Nancy: Yeah. That's I mean, all change is incremental. I think we forget that it's that, you know, like I, what was, what's his name? Anthony Hopkins. The actor. Yeah. Um, right between Christmas and new year's.

He was on Twitter. He celebrated his 30th year of being sober or something. It was some sober. Thing. And, and I remember it struck me because it was before new year's, you know, like a lot of people have that aha of like, Ooh, overdid on new year's even though it's what do they say? Amateur night? His was between Christmas and new year's, whatever, like the 27th.

And he said, you know, and it was some powerful message. And he said, be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid, which is the, is a quote from Goethe. Is that how you say his name?

Gerta

G O E T H E.

Sean: I think it's like, Gerta

Nancy: huh. Anyway, I don't know, but I have it sitting on people to mighty forces will come to your aid to remind myself to be bold.

I want that to be like, poof, I'm bold. Now I have the quote, I'm holding that as my theme, but it is a period of adjustment. Of what does bold mean? What does it mean to be bold? How does that show up? How do I do that? How do I deal with the ramifications of that? What if mighty forces don't come to my aid?

And so that's what I feel like you did last year. So I think when there's an identity shift, we, we forget about the identity shift. I remember when I stopped drinking, it was the identity of here's someone who's the life of the party who loves to drink, who challenges other people to drink tequila shots.

Like that was me. And then to go suddenly from Nope, I'm not that person is, is an identity shift that we don't a lot for. Someone who works out all the time to someone who's a gym rat. We don't a lot for that change. And I think that's a big part of this is recognizing who we are as a who we are and how we see ourselves that needs to shift too.

Sean: Yeah. You know, I celebrated three years, uh, December 13th, so it's interesting. It's um, I did go to AA for a couple for about the first year and it's not my thing. Like I never really. Needed. I mean, it played a role and I'm not dissing it. It is just not something I needed for my entire life. But with this identity change thing, it was funny.

They're like everyone walks their own walk but I met people who years and years and years of sobriety, and they still seemed like drinkers, like they still behave like it. So much of their identity self seems so wrapped up in the lifestyle and like, you'd go to the AA club and it felt like going to a bar like it was laid out like a bar, there was a physical bar, it smelled like a bar.

And, you know, I get the role that, that plays. But, it was not allowing me to make movement forward in my identity change that I was going to continue to hold on to. Well, then I think back of like, there are a lot of things that identities that don't allow me to make that have not allowed me to make change personally.

And, you know, not necessarily just about drinking, but like. You know, being a young, radical Sean, that's an entirely long story for itself, but that. To embracing that I've, that I'm growing. And there will be times when I look back and I'm like, Whoa, why am I still holding onto that story? That was like 30 years ago.

That's not benefiting me anymore. And, and it's not who I am anymore either. It's just, I'm still holding onto that perception of myself. Sean doesn't do this because Sean is this person well, Maybe Sean isn't that person anymore. And Sean does do that, right?

Nancy: Yeah.

Sean: And to your point of incremental change and identifying, like, what does bold mean and allowing yourself time to identify what that is, and kind of like ease into and learn, define your terms in a way, but also acknowledge that we, our identity can change.

Nancy: [yes, and I think that's the powerful, that's the powerful piece. We just got to allow it. Yeah, you allow to see something different. And I think that's what that's, what's hard is the grooves are well worn of who we are. I am going to jump a groove and go over here and, and see it differently and get a different perception.

It can be scary.

Sean: Yeah. I did want to share a story around this thing of change. So, my stepfather, he is 70-something early seventies known him for a long time. He's been in my life for a long time. He's one of those guys who, who talks about the old dogs can't learn new tricks stuff, which I'm not a fan of that statement.

I think that it's bull puckey, but I tell you what. So this year on my birthday, he called me on my birthday. I've known the man for. 35 years and he called me for the first time ever. Wow. My birthday, just to say, happy birthday and talk to me. Wow. Now this is the same guy who says old dogs can learn new tricks.

I'm like baloney. Okay. So it was interesting though, that watching that change in him, felt really good. I mean, it was necessary. I mean, he still has his things

Nancy: Do you think that was intentional. I mean like, or just like a spontaneous, let me call Sean. Or do you think it was a, I went to be building a better relationship with Sean.

Sean: So I think it was, I want to be building to move better. Really. I think it was conscious on his part. I think that when this like a deep rut, when we're in ruts and change is hard. Yes. Acknowledge all those things, but there are the stories. Right down to I'm too old to make those changes. I'm too set in my ways to make those changes.

That is a narrative you're telling yourself it is not true. You can change up to the day you die.

Nancy: I would say that's. That idea. It's both and it's recognizing this is hard and I'm going to make the change anyway. And I think we tend to be like, Ooh, old dogs, you know, can't learn new things, whatever the phrase dogs can't learn.New tricks. Yeah. There you go. That is, you know, like that's either, that's a story. That's our story. Or the story is, Oh, every new year is I get a chance to do it all again, and I can change things. And that's another story. Yeah. And so being able to recognize, I'm telling myself a story and it's not working here how, and be kind and, and be like, Ooh, that's really kept me safe and secure.

And I'm going to challenge myself to do it differently. And so often I see people picking one or the other, I'm going to stick with the story and I'm never going to change, or I'm not going to honor the fact that, that, that that's a story. I'm not going to honor the fact that I have that as a belief, and that makes this extra hard for me.

I'm just going to keep plowing ahead. And I think that idea back to self loyalty is we need to be loyal to the fact that we have stories. And that they have played a role in our life, but we don't need to be loyal to the story.

Sean: That's really interesting. Yeah. That was another thing that I've been thinking about lately is, you know, thinking about the stories, thinking about, you know, things that I did when I was a teenager or in my twenties or something, and that, that person, like, I, I still contain these, those memories, but I'm not that person anymore that person's long gone

So after all of this, or one of the things that I did want to ask you. We've talked about what my plans are for the new year. What are your plans for the new year? Do one, have you made resolutions? Are you going to make resolutions? What are those resolutions? If not, why not?

And are you going to pursue this idea of themes and what's that theme? That's my question.

Nancy: Wow. Okay. I have not made any resolutions up to this point. I've been holding loosely. Some ideas. What has been happening for me is last week was really crazy with the start of the new year. And then this week has been a little easier as far as work is concerned.

And so I was like, Oh, I'm going to take some time and do some planning. Okay. So this is Wednesday and I haven't done. Any of that, I've sat down a number of times to do it and it just hasn't happened. And so, so that kind of just recognizing that that's been happening for me and I have a big fear around, I think that's why I jumped on your idea of, Oh, last year it kind of was helping you change the identity.

And then this year you're implementing the changed identity that, um, I went through. Part of my resolutions is to do some identity shifting and to see myself in a different way. I have really seen myself as therapist and coach and someone who that's my role. And even I have written. A few books and write regularly on my blog.

I don't see myself as a creative person. I see myself as coach, a therapist who does these other things to support being a coach and therapist. And so I would like to be kind of letting go, not letting go of the coach and therapist identity, not letting go of coaching and therapy, but letting go of that, being my only identity and seeing what it would be like to.

To embrace more of the creativity to embrace more writing and art in some form and, and doing things on, in my business, in my life on a deeper level that isn't, so this is what you should do because you're at this age or you've accomplished this, or you've done this, or this is the next thing on the list, but what do I want to do here?

What is this look like for me? And so that's what I'm experimenting with. I don't quite know what that's gonna look like, but how I've been explaining that I went to school, I was a therapist, you know, I became a therapist and that was kind of like, now I'm a therapist, that's my identity. And what if I had become a journalist or what if I had gone into creative writing?

Or what if I had, you know, I think I would have ended up in this same place. Of psychology being a prominent feature. And, but I would be coming at it from a really different standpoint. And so what if I came at my job from a different standpoint, from a different lens, from a different way of putting it out into the world.

So it's very loose. And so I feel very vulnerable and sharing this. I will be honest because it is so loose, but that that's kind of what I'm experimenting. That's kind of what I want the new year to bring is a more grounded, intentional. Creative side. Did I answer the question or did I dance around it?

Sean: it danced around a little bit, but I'm okay with that

Nancy: because I was trying to answer it. I mean, I was not trying to dance around it.

Sean: No, no, I appreciate that. But I wanted to say that's one of the things that are holding things loosely and acknowledging your humanity is you don't always have to have the answer. Sometimes the, yeah. I'm am I'm work in progress is the right answer.

Nancy: Well, it's just something that is fascinating to me is, is that idea of identity.

A lot of people would be like, why see, who is a writer? I already see you as being creative. I already see you as doing this, but I don't see myself as that. And so that's what I want to work on is me seeing themself as these things. And I think so much of what I do is just because I should be doing it as opposed to.

It's what I want to be doing, even if it's the same end result.

Sean: I'm wondering what you think about this. I see some real potential for sort of a reevaluation of what identity is here and that you are a thing. And you're not another thing. I love the idea. And you've heard me talk, I've talked about this so far in this conversation is the whole idea of the multipotentialite and that.

We are multifaceted and there are ways to embrace multiple interests and make our identity multiple identities. Not really, but you know, make it a little bit more multifaceted instead of I am a thing. And that's what I do. Um, I was thinking about Stacey Abrams, um, the woman Georgia, I learned recently because she enough herself running, doing politics.

She's. Her identity, we hold her as this thing. And she's, bad-ass at what she does. I learned recently that she's also a romance novelist. Yeah. And so she has this additional identity is that she's a creative writer and writes, and I love that, you know, that like that you can be more than one thing and.

That's one of those things I think about approaching the year, kind of broken out. If you sort of lay your year out, it allows for the space or is this like for right now, I'm going to focus on this and I'm going to put this other thing that I want to work on over here. And I know that it's coming and I'm not neglecting it and I don't have to resent what I'm doing now.

Nancy: So yeah,

that's what I love about it. Like, I think it's genius in getting away from the, the idea of, Oh, I need to be doing this, you know, like the jumping from thing to thing. Cause you don't want to forget anything. Yeah, leave anything out. I think this is awesome

Sean: Um, from a very tactical sort of like how you can actually approach this.

It’s been recommended that you have someplace where you can see it all in one place. And I did print out off the Google. I got like their year calendar thing where you see every month and every day, you know, just the spreadsheet so that I can break it out into like I can visually see what months are what, when I'm doing what for the entire year. And of course, like we said, loose is the theme in this conversation.

I'm looking forward to hearing how things go, how this goes for you. Because as you're laying out some plans, I feel like there's some room here to get a little bit more specific and lay things out of when you're going to focus on some of these things.

Nancy: Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I'm also a nine and on the Enneagram and I tend to, I don't do the seeding ball of resentment, but I do, I call it going unconscious. I do that a lot of, I don't, which sounds weird, but I kind of like sleepwalk. Through my life. And, and that's what I'm referring to.

When I say I want to be intentional. I want to be intentional. Like I keep, that's kind of been the theme. I keep saying over and over in my head, because I tend to just be like, this is the next thing it's March is what we do in March. It's April is what we do in April. And I, or, you know, Tara says she's doing this in, in the forum.

So I'm going to do that, you know, because she's a business mentor that I value and I don't check in with. Is this what I want to be doing right now? Not even in it, is this what I want to be doing, but let's be present the whole time you're doing it and not just go through the motions and much of my life.

I go through the motions and, um, and I'm tired of that and it scares the crap out. That's really why. Cause then I'm responsible for maybe that's why maybe I am a seething ball of resentment because then I can blame other people. I'm responsible for where I am in my career. I'm responsible for what's happening in my life.

I'm, I'm, there's more gravitas to it. There's more, it's not just I'll get to that someday. I'll do that at some point. It's more like this is it, girl, you're going to be 48 in a month. Let's do this.

Sean: I can really relate to that fear. And cause I would say that one of the reasons that I've chosen to choose expansiveness and thinking big, et cetera, as a theme is because of what you just said, because I too am, you know, I'm like here I am 44.

It's like, and you know, now what? And I'm here because of my actions. I'm here because of me.

Nancy: So, and just yesterday I was 40. Like, that's what it feels like, like, like it, it, the time just, it goes, uh, it feels like just yesterday it was March.

Sean: [Mine's 30. I feel like just yesterday I was 30. That fear sounds like, Oh yeah, that's a big one, but manageable.

Says the person without high functioning anxiety,

Nancy: but I think it is, it is. That's where I feel like I need to be with your idea, you know, because before talking with you, I was like, resolutions, suck 2021 is going to suck. Like here we go. We're just repeat more of the same.

Like I can get that curmudgeonly. What's the point? Aspect of, and then I can be the super ideal of, Oh no change is possible. And we're going to draw this amazing stuff. And I, again, like kind of like the monger and the BFF, I just kind of jump between those two. Thought processes in. And I think what you in this conversation have pointed out to me is this middle ground, which is not that that's going to be easy for me holding this middle ground, but the middle ground of let's be intentional.

Let's do a plan. Let's hold it loosely. Let's see what emerges, but let's keep coming back to this plan, to this idea, to, you know, be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid. Let's explore what that means and how I can hold that loosely and hold my feet to the fire. How I can have self loyalty around that concept and, and, and give some concrete themes.

Sean: that sounds great. You know, it immediately, like the last thing I wanted to say about that with this having concrete plans and thinking about things loosely every single day, we are presented with new variables, new information, and it would even whether or not you're running your business or you're running your life or walking down the streets to having, having made a plan and then not being able to adjust that plan no matter what happens.

That's not good. Right. Right. And so. But if, but in a way it's also exciting. I think that there's, I, I'm excited to see what happens for both of us just coming here, because this is, we will be checking in on this and seeing how this plays out.

Nancy: Yeah, totally. I agree. Totally. Yeah.

Sean: Well, Nancy, do you have anything else you want to talk about

Nancy: Oh, dude, I feel like we've got a counseling session in here which has been great.

Sean: I mean, that's, that's what we do.

Nancy: I wanted to give people a window into our conversations and that's totally what we did here. So thank you, Sean, for showing up and being so vulnerable and honest.

Sean: Oh my, my pleasure, Nancy, anytime.

Nancy: Again, I want to give a big thank you to Sean for coming on and sharing about his 2021 plans. It takes a lot of vulnerability to show up here, and I really appreciate him showing up with such authenticity. Okay. There are some big changes coming to the Happier Approach Podcast for a couple of years now, I've been wanting to change the format of this podcast into more of a narrative style NPRs podcast.

This means moving to a seasoned model and exploring one topic deeply throughout that season. So the Happier Approach Podcast is going on a brief two month hiatus. I'll be back in April with the new season, what we'll be exploring the topic of high functioning, anxiety, and self loyalty on a much deeper level.

I'm nervous and kind of excited about this new direction. And I hope you will tune in. But in the meantime, if you want to stay in touch, visit my website live-happier.com and sign up for my weekly Sunday newsletter.

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Episode 164: Practicing Self-Loyalty in the New Year - Part 1

In this episode, I’m chatting with my producer, Sean McMullin about change, resolutions, and plans for the new year.

For years, the month of December was my month of debauchery. My BFF (the voice of false self-compassion) ran the show. After months of being told what I “should” do by my Monger in December, I could throw all the rules out the window. 

December was the one month out of the year that I gave myself permission to not listen to the shaming voice of the Monger: I gave myself the free pass of December because I knew come January, my Monger would drop the hammer and criticize me into submission.

I believed, on January 1st (well, 2nd really because on the 1st, I was still recovering from all the December merriment), I would magically become a new person. Someone who loved vegetables and hated sugar, desired to work out every day, easily abstained from drinking, and uber-productive.

I am sure you could guess how that went. Long story short, come mid-January, my Monger had a field day with all the ways I was failing. This all-or-nothing thinking ran my life for years---decades really.

But something changed, thanks to the practice of self-loyalty. 

December isn’t a magical month of no consequences anymore. Instead, I have days where I overeat sugar and drink too much caffeine and days where I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. And my worthiness isn’t linked to any of it. Whether I eat five sugar cookies or five carrots, I am still me: broken, imperfect, smart, funny, overly-sensitive, loyal Nancy Jane Smith. 

But the idea of change and resolutions still intrigues me. So on this episode, I am bringing back my podcast producer Sean McMullin. You might remember him from episode 155 and episode 161 where we discussed meditation and mindfulness.

This is part one of this conversation and I’m so excited for you to hear it. Here is part two!

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The definition of Self-Loyalty

• How self-loyalty works with the idea of change and resolutions

• Sean’s plans for the new year--combining a word of the year with quarterly themes

• How to hold your resolutions loosely AND actually make change

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• This Naked Mind by Annie Grace

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach in Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: And self loyalty was oh, I can be this person that procrastinates, I can be the person that has anxiety and I could still be okay with myself. I can still be like, oh, here we go. This is a hard time. And when I can say, how can I have my own back in this situation? It's a reminder of, oh, how do I show up for myself four years?

The month of December was my month at . The voice of false self-compassion ran the show after months of being told what I should do by my monger in December, I could throw all the rules out the window. December was the worst one month out of the year that I gave myself permission to not listen to the shaming voice of the monger.

I gave myself the free pass of December because I knew come January. My monger would drop the hammer and criticize me into something. I believed on January 1st. January 2nd, really? Because the first I was still recovering from all the December Marymount, I would magically become a new person.

Someone who loved vegetables, hated sugar, had the desire to work out every day and could abstained from drinking and be Uber productive. I'm sure you could guess how that went. Long story short come mid January. My monger had a field day with all the ways I was. This all or nothing thinking ran my life for years, decades.

Really. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane. Today, I would say thanks to the practice of self loyalty December. Isn't a magical month of no consequences anymore.

Instead I have days where I overeat sugar and drink too much caffeine and days where I eat lots of fruits and vegetable. And my worthiness isn't linked to any of it. Whether I eat five sugar cookies or five carrots, I'm still my broken, imperfect, smart, funny, overly sensitive, loyal Nancy, but the idea of change and resolutions still intriguing.

So on today's podcast, I'm bringing back my podcast, producer, Sean McMullin. You might remember him from when he was on the show, talking me through my meditation experiment this past fall, right after the first of the year, Sean and I met to talk about the show and through our conversation, we started talking about change resolutions and plans for the new year.

It was such a great conversation. And one, I think you will get a lot out of, so we decided to record it so you could listen to it. I'm excited for you to hear this conversation. It was so good. We broke it up into two parts. This episode is part one, and part two will be released next year. Keep listening to hear the definition of self loyalty, how subtlety works with the idea of change and resolutions Sean's plans for the new year, combining a word of the year with quarterly themes and how to hold your resolutions loosely and actually make change.

Hi, everyone. I'm excited today because I have brought back Sean, the producer of the happier approach here to talk with me. I'm going to have a fun conversation about self loyalty and resolutions. We have hit the new year where somebody. Everything was going to be magically different in 2021. I saw a Twitter thing that said I'm ready to turn in my seven day preview of 2021.

That just made me laugh. So welcome, Sean. How's it going? Great. I'm glad you're here. Yeah. Okay. So self loyalty and resolutions. I have a number of questions, but is there anything you want to ask? Yeah,

Sean: I wanted to lead offer. I think it's interesting when we encounter terms that we use. That we assume everyone is on the same page about, and everyone has the same understanding of what those terms mean.

And I'm a big fan of pausing and defining terms. So Nancy self loyalty. I think I understand what you mean when you say self loyalty. What do you mean when you say self loyalty so that I understand what you, what we're talking about specifically?

Nancy: The reason I love the term self loyalty is because I have a vis a visceral negative response to the terms self-compassion self-love self-acceptance and those terms, I think of.

Even self-trust I think they have been way over done. They have lost all meaning for me, like I just couldn't find any, ah, yeah, that's what I need to do in any of those terms. And then I started paying attention to a lot of my clients have loyalty is one of their values and they really know what loyalty is.

And to me, loyalty is no matter what. I'm going to have your back, no matter what happens, I will be here. I think Bernie brown talks about the Berry, the body friends. That's what I'm talking about with loyalty, my best friend, no matter what happens, I'm going to be there for her. And something terrible happened.

You would have to hold me back from. From driving to Kentucky and having her back

Sean: that it's at Dixie chicks song. It's the Earl's got to die.

Nancy: Yeah. That to me, yes. I love that song. That is the ultimate self loyalty song for me. It was recognizing I don't have that for myself. I don't have that. No matter what happens, I have your back.

It's going to be okay. Because my natural bent is to improve. Get better. Deny it or fix it. Those are the two kind of modes. So I run in and self loyalty was oh, I can be this person that procrastinates, I can be the person that has anxiety and I could still be okay with myself. I can still be like, oh, here we go.

This is a hard time. And so being able to switch. Idea another, I would say self loyalty and I say, have your own back. Those go to me simultaneously. And when I can say, how can I have my own back in this situation? It's a reminder of, oh, how do I show up for myself in a kind way?

Sean: Yeah.

Immediately makes me think. Additionally, about when you have people who have your back, the certain degree of. You can calm down a little bit. You can trust, you can relax a little bit. And it's one thing to have your attendance did on the flip of that of note having your own back. Yeah, I like that a lot.

Nancy: Yeah. For me, that was a, more of a game changer than self-compassion and then all those words, like I said, it was that idea of having that, that I can be my own soft place. That at the end of the day, I am not something that is broken or in need of repair or incomplete. I am me and I can still grow and change and quote, unquote improve.

But that doesn't mean who I am is bad.

Sean: And I think also allows for the room for when you do make mistakes. I remember I worked used to work on this construction crew and loyalty amongst them. They made, they were friends from their biker friends from way back when their kids and loyalty was everything for them.

And it was obnoxious actually, but they had this whole thing of look, you get into a fight or something and I'll have your back. You might be in the wrong. You might've made a mistake. We'll talk about that later. Yeah. But until that point, I'm there for you and that I'll be there for you because they took it into a kind of a interesting and not entirely healthy way.

But I like this idea that I think that there's also the space for acknowledging the error and the mistake and the imperfection and saying, yeah, that's there we'll address that when we'll deal with it. But first and foremost, You, I have your back self.

Nancy: Thank you for telling that story. Because if my friend murdered someone, I still would be questioning what's going on here and where are you in?

How can I help you face this? Not let me condemn you and not be there for you. Yeah.

Sean: For you. What you wanted to talk about was this connection between this concept of loyalty for the self, which I'm totally digging and how that plays out in resolutions. And specifically right now, new year's resolutions.

Tell me what you're thinking along around that.

Nancy: By the time this podcast comes out, it'll be mid January. And so not that the shine of the new year didn't get taken off pretty quickly this year, but the shine of the new year will definitely be gone by the time this podcast comes out. And I think that even though we know that the new year isn't a magical time, we still want it to be a magical time.

I still want the turn of the year to be like, ah, now I'm finally going to get my stuff together and I'm going to be Organized and have my goals and know my followup stuff and be able to stop eating sugar and all those things. And so that idea of looking at how can I have my own back and be wanting to change and grow and at the same time, practicing this idea of self loyalty.

Yeah. And I think that's that's a change because resolutions in the way they have been traditionally. Talked about is in the belief that I'm broken and that I will get better once I hit these resolutions. And I think that's why they inherently fail.

Sean: The it's the making the resolutions. That is the problem.

Or is it that our approach to the resolutions? That is the problem. Do we need to scrap news resolutions or do we just need to hold them a little looser and allow for. The mistakes and the, when we drop them and how to, what we do when we drop them into. Oh, is there anything to salvage from them?

Nancy: A client who said to me recently, I just like getting a reset and I get that you're coming out of the holidays.

2020 was hard. Let's just reset and see what can happen. So I think in that sense, having that idea of this is a new time. It was for some of us like September going back to school, it gives us that, Ooh, there's a refresh. And then I think that's awesome. But I think recognizing also ha. I think one of the bigger issues is we don't recognize how hard change is making changes is freaking hard.

When I often tell the story, I had this mentor who would scream at the top of his lungs, all change is incremental. All change is incremental. All change is incremental. And I remember being so like, we'd laugh when he would do it. It's true. Like all change is so it's so small. So the idea that I'm going to do a dry January and I'm going to stop drinking in January, but there's no self-reflection on.

How hard it is to stop drinking what I miss about drinking. What's not there anymore. You know what the drinking gave me like all of that stuff. And so we white knuckle our way through January, and then it's whoa, I did dry January. Now, February 1st, here we go. And we're back at it. And, or we'll try to be like, oh, let's do a couple of drinks or we'll set new rules, but we haven't had our own back in recognizing wow, dry January is easy or dry.

January is hard and that's just. One example. I've seen people on Twitter saying that after what happened last week at the Capitol, they've given up their diet, they've given up dry January. Everything went out the window because there was all this stress. And so I'm going to eat and drink to get rid of it.

And I think that. Part of the problem with resolutions is we're not looking at the whole person. And even I know like word of the year is a popular idea. I'm going to have a theme of the year, which I think awesome. Which is my thing I want you to about that because I think that's awesome and that also can get lost pretty easily.

And so it's like, how do we keep bringing back? This theme throughout the year. And that's how incremental change happens

Sean: I was thinking about this thing of one of the things that's particularly with dry January. One of the things that's challenging in my experience is we're doing a thing that we don't actually want it to be.

Yeah. Said, and when you're doing something you're like making yourself do a difficult in a distasteful and yucky thing that you don't want to be doing. And I think the point that's one of those places where I think resolutions starts to fail. Is a hundred percent convinced that we want to be doing these things.

Like when I got Annie Grace's book this naked mind was a huge asset for me and her whole deal. And she was using the work of other people, but she was. Liminal thinking and the idea of you take everything that is confronting that is creating a roadblock for you, barrier for you, some sort of mental position, some sort of way of perceiving something.

And you actually look at it and you say is this true? And like when it's the things, the reasons that you think that you should still, you have this long list and you can apply this to anything, really, any sort of behavior that you'd like to change. And as you're going through this, you can actually start like realizing what is.

I, I don't want to do this anymore. And when you get to that point where the changes, the change you actually want to make, as opposed to that distasteful thing that you're making yourself do, like suddenly I need to go to the gym and exercise, even though I hate exercising,

Nancy: yeah. because it's an external someone somewhere told me to do this.

It's not coming from within. Yeah. I may be someone who wants to be in shape and be able to work out an hour every day. I want that that's an external thing I want, but I don't want to do all the stuff that's required to get there. And I need to be honest about that.

Sean: Yeah. And there's where incremental change comes in is the being honest about that and being realistic about if I want to be that person who exercises every day, that might have to come in stages.

Nancy: Yeah, it reminds me of a client who she's working on. She picked the theme of all or nothing thinking, and that is something that she's working with.

Sean: Like confronting all or nothing.

Nancy: Yeah. Notice and loosen up that idea of there's a right way and a wrong way and all this stuff. And she'll notice every time she does all or nothing thinking, and she'll Vox me.

Here's a litany of all the times. And what's been amazing is oftentimes we want to fix a bunch of stuff. I want to stop my high functioning anxiety, but she just picked one place where that high functioning anxiety shows up and. Is noticing it in tons of ways. It shows up all the time in her life.

And I also hear that from clients who want to stop drinking. And they're like, I think about drinking all the time or just to notice the way it infiltrates your life and just having your back around that. And you just being like, oh, there it is. Again, there it is. Again, there it is again. And I think that's that idea of incremental change, but what has been fascinating to me is that by just seeing how much all or nothing thinking plays out in her life, She's making big changes because that one thing infiltrates a lot of things.

And so often we want to change too many things. We bite off too much of the apple instead of being like, I just want to really get to know the skin of the apple. That's what I really want to get to know and see that. And then I'll try to get all the way to the core.

Sean: Yeah. Back when I used to work at a brewery, I worked at a brewery for a long time.

Collectively we would all take, do dry dry January and. It was always so funny because everyone would show up on the, on January 1st hung over. And then they were starting as they're hung over. And then there was a bunch of us started doing anything where we would start the resolution a few days before the new.

Because per pressure on January 1st to suddenly you're doing this thing, it's so hard to do a thing where you go from never having been on a treadmill to, I'm going to put on five miles today. As of right now, this is who I am. We'd also, we lived on the Pacific coast and so we'd all go. And January 1st, we all go jump in the ocean.

That was a lot of fun. That would be fun. So to this idea, Of the word of the year or the theme of the year, which is the thing that I like to do. I've started, I've been doing that for a few years now, before I talk about that, another thing that occurred to me is another approach that I'm experimenting with this year is I'm breaking the year up into quarters.

I have. Many interests. I am a multifaceted multipotentialite Huddy like individual. I want to acknowledge that when I focus on one thing for too long, I start becoming resentful of that thing. And so this year I'm experimenting with. Laying out the year in three month increments where I stick to a specific thing for a period of.

Okay. And I've actually laid out most of the year of what reading material I intend on doing for the entire year. That's like the magically connected. So like some nonfiction that I'll be reading while I'm doing that. That's the magically connected to what I'm doing. And what I'm intentionally doing is I'm also making the themes abstract enough.

To have a little bit of wiggle room.

Nancy: So can you give like a, an example of a theme?

Sean: Movements is a theme. Place is a theme surface, and so I'm an artist. And so a lot of this has to do with my art and exploring my artistic side, my creativity. And so the abstract, I thrive in oblique connections and.

Loose definitions of where it's supposed to go, because it allows for improvisation and creativity. That's my shtick, and I get why some people would like something a little bit more solid, but that's my, and also so in a lot of ways I'm treating the next year is like a year of study of myself and my creativity.

So like at the end of every quarter, there's actually, I intended. A project, like there is a culmination of the work actually be like solidified. So there'll be a thing that like actually acknowledges the work. And I think that's something that would, I think that when you set goals to be like, okay, this is the thing that I want to obtain in this stretch of time.

And it's actually, because it's not, I'm going to do this for the next year. It's no, I'm going to do this for the next month. And at the end of this month, I'm going to have this goal. It becomes way more manageable. I'm going to walk around the block every day for the rest of the month.

Is way more yeah, I could do that.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that. You're not going to get bored. It changes it up. There's a focus in each time. It's like the client with the all or nothing. Thinking like you are focusing in on one thing and then holding your feet to the fire by the culminate.

Project, but I think in the spirit of all changes incremental. If the end of the year, you will have done all this different stuff. It may not change you, but you've experienced a variety of things and you've committed to it. And I think that's where a lot of people I know I get super bummed come March.

Oh, all these things I committed to, they're gone. I don't have them anymore. And that idea of shiny object syndrome and fear of missing out and, oh, I should be doing something else. The idea of having the self loyalty enough to be like, no, this is what I committed to. It's just for three months

Sean: And in theory this is something you want to do right?,

Nancy: so for me, that the patience and the drilling down, like I'll say to myself, oh, I really want to drill down. And really dive deeply into something. And I just was journaling about this the other day, but my emo, what I do on a daily basis is pop myself out of it all the time.

Yeah. I don't commit, I don't commit. And I think that's what I love about what you're doing. And then it's inspiring me.

Sean: Yeah. I hear some Monger talk going on too.

Nancy: There's some talk happening there and there is some truth. Totally, I think both are happening and it's

Sean: The Monger is not always a liar.

I don't Monger is always, most of the time there's a lot of lying going on.

Nancy: But that's where the biggest fan is going to be like, yeah, we don't like to commit, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It just means I got. Really put some parameters in place to keep bringing myself back. I think that's the idea of self loyalty is recognizing get commitments hard.

We don't need to beat ourselves up for that, but we really gotta be aware. The commitment's hard and FOMO is real. And how do I keep bringing myself back?

Sean: Yeah. A thought just occurs to me in a question for you. So do you think in some ways, this self loyalty that the. The biggest fan is a metaphor of the embodiment of that self loyalty.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah,

because for me, figuring out the biggest fan was so powerful because it was like before the biggest fan and that idea of self loyalty came to me, it was either like I'm either beating myself up or I. Giving myself an out, those were the two modes I was operating in all the time. I'm beating myself up in the beating myself up was I thought was moving me forward.

And so then to recognize, oh, I could have this biggest fan who can move me forward, hold my feet to the fire. She's she can be pushing me, but she's kind about it. She wants what's best for me. She's not just blindly. Pushing me. She's this is what we want. This is going to be good. This is hard.

Here we go. Let's do this. You don't want to get up early. You don't want to go walk. The dog you'll feel better when you do one of my things as I've been trying to do the morning pages from the artist's way. So I'd been trying to do morning pages, and then I don't want to do them morning pages, or you just sit and write three pages.

Dump your brain. And it's like the meditation thing. They don't want to do it, but then it makes me feel so much better. It's a connection to myself that it's, that, that is a theme that I want this year for me. I haven't mapped it out the way you have with yours, which is why that's inspiring to me, but to figure out how can I keep building that connection with myself?

Because my tendency is to always go outside and morning pages is helping me do that, but it's something that I fight almost every day. And that's where the biggest fan comes in to be like, sit down button, see, do this. You'll feel better, go not your big fat loser. You promised yourself you do this. Why can't you do it?

But just let's go, let's do this. We'll feel better. Come : on.

Sean: Another question for you about this too, as one of the things that I hear you, as you're talking about this. And I had said this earlier, that as I was setting out, as I was laying out my intended plan for this year, I'm fortunate that I don't deal with.

High functioning anxiety. I have anxiety. I'm not a perfectionist. Sometimes to a flaw, I could be a little bit harder on myself. I could use a little bit more of the biggest fan saying, Hey, yo, you should do something because most of the time I'm pretty consensus content. Just sit on the couch and knit and.

I'm very prone to if come middle of the year, I don't want to do it anymore. I was like, that was fun. And I move on. I don't beat myself up over it. And what I hear and I've observed in with people who do, who are high functioning with their anxiety, is that the failure really gets to them. The performance anxiety for themselves.

And that one thing that. The idea of setting out a plan for what you're going to do, and then have someone tell you and then hold it loosely as it's like, what the blankety blank do you mean by holding it loose? What are you talking about? You're not going to get anything done, right? Am I

Nancy: said that earlier on, you were like, and then you just hold it loosely.

I was like what the blippity blip is holding it loosely?. I was like, okay, hold it loosely. Like I have no clue what that means. (Laughter)

Sean: even, I heard myself saying, I was just like, I'm going to pause here and come back to this because, cause I know that my wife, whenever I say, hold something loosely, thinks LOSERS hold things loosely

Nancy: (Laughter)

They're there in lies. A big challenge though, right? Because when we're talking herself being self loyal, surely there has to be somewhere in there. There is that balance as a compromise, there is that position and posture that allows for you to push yourself towards change. But also to not totally beat yourself down when your human frailty kicks in, do you have anything to say to that?

Nancy: That idea of human frailty is what makes my skin crawl more so used to then does now soldier on, suck it up. I can do anything. Just give me the right map and the fact that there is human frailty. Is really annoying to me is one thing. But whereas you were talking about that idea of failure. I was thinking about, so last Christmas I was going to get into bread, making pre COVID.

I was going to get into bread making and I got this book and all the that go with bread making. And my first couple loaves, they tasted. Okay. But they weren't great. And it drove me crazy because there was no here's how you bake bread. There was you feel it and it feels marshmallowy. And it's super talk about holding it loosely.

Like the people that teach about how to teach bread, it's loose. It's very loose. And so I gave it up because how can I win? How do I win? I just want to know how to win. That's always my Mo how do I do this? And I decided let's just make bread for the enjoyment of making bread. Let's not make bread for the sake of.

Click this off the list. I'm a bread maker, but that there's going to be winning and losing all the way around. Let's hold this process loosely. And the more I baked bread of what marshmallow we felt like and what it smelled like when I had over proofed it and that sort of thing, it became more apparent to me.

And so like last night I made bread and it was the best. It was awesome. It was beautiful. It tasted really good. And in a part of me was like, oh I've figured this out. This is over, like I've done this. And then another part of me was like, dude, you made one good luck. But, we're still holding this process loosely.

There's more to learn. There's more to do. There's another loaf of doing the same thing. And so my challenge when I was this past year, when I was making the bread was I made the same bread over and over and over and over again, I didn't up my game. I did try a new kind. I just kept making the same loaf.

And then I figured that out, like I figured out all the techniques and now I can go do something else. And I think to me that. Big aha of recognizing this isn't linear. There's a lot to this. There's a lot to temperature and ingredients and there's all these unknowns. And so bread making has become a metaphor for me on how to do life in a bigger way, because it's, you gotta hold it.

Sean: I love that metaphor because it's a very simple set of variables, right? Yes. Water, flour, yeast, and hopefully salt. Yeah. And from there, the variables and fire and the complexity and nuance within a small set of variables. Yeah, that's great. I love that metaphor.

Nancy: That's one reason I've always strayed from art is how do you know.

Yeah. And it's interesting. So I think it is hard. That's why resolutions, the way you're talking about resolutions is the loose idea. Notice all your examples of resolutions were very loose. My resolutions were stopping, drinking, stopping, eating, stopping, they're more winning and losing their all or nothing.

Yeah. Either did this or I didn't. A huge thank you to Sean, because it takes so much courage to be willing to show up here and be so vulnerable. We'll be back next week with part two, where you will hear about my plans for 2021, along with how I plan to challenge myself this year.

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Episode 163: Lou Blaser and the Performative Nature of High Functioning Anxiety - Part 2

In this episode, I continue my conversation with Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast about the performative nature of high functioning anxiety.

Anyone with High Functioning Anxiety knows what I mean when I talk about the Swan Effect.

It basically boils down to the feeling of being so on top of it and accomplishing everything we set our sights on… compared to the overwhelm and exhaustion that we feel under the surface that no one can see. 

My guest on this series about the performative nature of high functioning anxiety is no stranger to the Swan Effect. 

In part one of this podcast, Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast and I talked about the Swan Effect and what it feels like to be calm on top and yet paddling like mad, metaphorically, underneath. We also discussed when Lou realized she needed help and what therapy taught her about anxiety and depression. 

On today’s episode, Lou and I continue the conversation around the performative nature of high functioning anxiety with Lou. For her, learning to recognize that tendency is a sign that her depression and anxiety have spiked and that she needs to step up her self-care.

If you feel like no matter how anxious you are that you need to appear on top of it, this episode is for you. And don’t miss part one, which you can listen to here.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why sharing your anxiety is so hard and finding the right pair of ears is essential

• The sneaky ways we sabotage ourselves

• Why therapy isn’t a fix-all and the disappointment in realizing Lou won’t be magically fixed

• The power of self-loyalty and changing how Lou had her own back was so important

Resources mentioned:

• secondbreaks.com

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book
  

+ Read the Transcript

Lou: One of the things that I know I had to do was I had to find people who are safe pairs of ears that I can talk to or not to be having long drawn conversations about the anxiety that you're feeling. It's just like today, Nancy, I just feel often it is just being able to say that. So I had to find those people because I didn't have them, or I didn't know that.

Because I was hiding and I wasn't talking about anything. So for me, that was one of the first things I had to do

Nancy: Today, I'm continuing my interview with Lou blazer, talking about the performative nature of high functioning anxiety. If you missed part one, I encourage you to listen to episode 1 61. First in part one, Lou shared her quest to be Swan, like calm on top and paddling, like mad underneath.

That is so common for those of us with high functioning anxiety, to feel like no matter how anxious we are, we need to appear on top of it for Lou learning to recognize that tendency is assigned for her, that her depression and anxiety have spiked and she needs to step up herself care. You're listening to the happier approach.

The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Keep listening to hear why sharing your anxiety is so hard and finding the right pair of ears is so important. How therapy is in a fixed hall and the disappointment Lou had in realizing she wouldn't be magically fixed the sneaky ways we sabotage ourselves and the power of self loyalty and how for Lou changing the fact that she now had her own back was so important.

Again, I want to give a big thank you to Lou. It takes so much courage to be willing, to be so vulnerable, to learn more about Lou and to listen to her podcast, visit her at secondbreaks.com.

Lou: It's funny. Sometimes I can almost tell when I'm talking to someone, if the person I'm talking to experiences, anxiety or depression.

So for example, when, if I say to someone I'm feeling funky today, or I'm sober off when someone's is why, what happened. To move that tells me this, where, as, for example, when I talked to our common friend, Sean, he never asked what happened. He just understands. Sometimes it's not what happened.

Sometimes it just is.

Nancy: Yes

Lou: A It has nothing to do with what happened.

nd there's relief in that. And then talking with someone and not having to explain because a happened because B happened today. No it is just today.

Nancy: if you can't say. Oh this happened. If you just say, I just is, and there's someone who is in that, you have to look like a Swan mentality, then they can't give you empathy.

So then you have to come up with the justification for why you feel the way and it just keeps it going yeah. I'm so glad you said that

Lou: I have to feel better. So I have to come up with the story so you can understand me.

Nancy: Yes. And coming up with that story. Lanes to be like, oh, my husband and I got into an argument and that's just to make them feel better so that they can come up with a way positive or change the story and be like, ah, it's no big deal or don't worry.

I'm sure your husband will be fine. Or to make you feel better.

It is true. And so I think that's one of the things I talk about a lot is about the idea. I think the key to this stuff is. Is building self loyalty.

Lou: I love that phrase

Nancy: because it's so many people are so loyal to everyone else. We are ends of the earth for them, but aren't loyal to ourselves and being able to discern, ah, here's a safe person that I can talk about my anxiety with versus here as a person that's going to try to fix me.

Yes. From have some form of self-love. Yes. Yes. Yeah. All of that. I think that's powerful. So the whole point of this podcast was to talk about the performative nature of high-functioning anxiety, which we have totally gotten that, which with the Swan analogy, which I never even thought of. I've thought of that analogy before, but I didn't see the link between them and recognizing that.

In the perpetuating of, I have to be a certain way. I have to look like a Swan. It is causing this even more to be perpetuated. We like swans. Yes, absolutely. And it's also something that happens. I think there's a flip that I know this when I'm working with clients and I'm curious if you experienced this with your therapist, the idea of I'm going to do this work and I'm going to fix this.

And then I can go back to being a Swan, but I'll be able to do it without all this anxiety

Lou: I love Brené Brown, there is this thing that she tells when she first spoke with our therapist. First time I heard it, I laughed. So hard because it was very close to what I have to be like, give me a checklist of what I must do.

What are the things I must do? What are the habits? What are the things I must do is I could check it off and I could be on my way to progress..

Nancy: Yes

Lou: Therapist was just shaking her head and just a smile to at me

Nancy: because the funny thing is with the Brené Brown, I'm certified in the Daring Way

And so big fan of Brené Brown. So when I first came and got that, I would get all these people, I feel would come to see me because they love Brené Brown and they just wanted to sit in the office and talk about Brené Brown. And share stories about her. No one wanted to do the work that she was teaching to do.

They just wanted to be like, I totally relate to Brené Brown. I totally get her,

but when I would bring it back to. Okay. So now we need to talk about vulnerability and now, oh, Brené tells the story about vulnerability and here it is.

Lou: Yeah.

Nancy: And the funniest part was that it took me a while to recognize that's what we were doing. because I'm like, Ooh, cool let's talk about Brené Brown, but I agree. And so we want that checklist of this is how we do that. This is how I can fix it. And then it gradually, eventually they recognize, ah, crap, this is ongoing.

Yes, this isn't something I can fix and I might need to make life changes because of it. As you did by leaving corporate America, there might be things I have to do to set up my wife so that this isn't a predominant factor.

Lou: Yeah, exactly. So for example, one of the things that I know I had to do was I had to outside of my therapist, find people who are safe pairs of ears that I can talk to, or I can even not to be having long drawn conversations about the anxiety that you're feeling it's just like

Today, Nancy, I just feel off today. It's just being able to say that. So I had to find those people because I didn't have them, or I didn't know them because I was hiding and I wasn't talking about anything. So those for me, that was one of the first things I had to do. Or where are my safe pairs of ears?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's very powerful to recognize

Lou: also bringing it back to the work of vulnerability that is being vulnerable, because it's you're telling someone you experienced this.

Nancy: And that's very vulnerable. Yeah. The irony of it is we all experience it to some level. To me, the monger voice she just runs my world. Like she's so freaking loud and to recognize everybody has a monger, but she's not as loud

Lou: Nancy, when you first talked to me about that. Or a couple of years ago, I swear to God. I was like, oh my God, these voices have terms and they are roles

Nancy: because the first step is recognizing, oh, that voice that's constantly criticizing me. That's not me. It's an actual. But there are people out there that just have a little, she's just she's there, but she's not screaming at them all day long. She's just kinda there. Yeah. And that was an eye opener to me to be like, oh, there's varying levels of this monger.

I just have a really loud monger. And there are other people that have one, but she's not running the show. She's just giving commentary here and there, back to the pair of ears. We need to find years of people who get how loud she is. And aren't just ah, just ignore it. Yeah, you can't ignore her. Like it's impossible.

I've tried that. That's the pushing it down and soldiering on that. We, that we've tried years ago, I was on your podcast, the second breaks podcast. And we talked about these voices and I remember you being super excited about the difference between. The BFF, which is that voice of false self-compassion that's go ahead, take a break, do whatever.

And the voice of the biggest fan, who she still holds your feet to the fire, but she's kind about it. Yes. Yeah. The monger who is you're such a loser, what are you thinking? And then a BFF forget about it. It's their fault. They're the ones that got us here or take a break in my view is where anxiety comes from because those two voices are fighting back and forth all the time.

And so we need a middle voice. That is the biggest fan saying, okay. Let's really be honest and look at this with some kindness, but I remember you being like, oh, thank God you have the biggest fan because so many people I know, fall victim to the BFF. And it was cool in the moment because I was like, as she gets this, because I fell victim to the BFFs.

Two. So tell me more. Do you remember that, first off?

Lou: Yes So my monger the voice is very loud in my head. If I have a BFF voice in my head, she's very timid and she doesn't speak up, but because the monger is just overpowering all the time. So for example, if I'm. Oh a real friend. And I'm telling her about how I'm feeling though, about myself or my critic.

I'm being very critical. The tendency is to be the BFF.

Nancy: Yes.

Lou: And there's a part of me that rejects it because I'm like it's false. It doesn't ring. True. So when you started talking about it, The biggest fan. I like, yes. Cause I know that voice is in my head, that voice, which is rational kind compassion, but also holds me accountable for the things I said I want to do.

I have that voice. If she just doesn't speak up very often or is always overpowered by the monger. But yeah, I remember that I love, love, love the biggest fan voice. And I said that was the voice I really want to cultivate and encourage in me, but that involves a lot of. Compassion self-compassion, which is something I continuously talk about things that you continuously have to work on for me, that's honest.

And then I began to also hear the BFF voice, not inside my head, but from other people, which is funny that it just doesn't ring true for me. Yeah.

Nancy: I only know what you mean because I, what I love about the biggest fan is, like you said, she's rational. Yeah. Yeah. Honest. I have a presentation later today and I've procrastinated.

And so I'm behind the gun on getting it done. And my biggest fan will say, dude, you messed up there. Yeah. Yeah. Procrastinated this long. She's not beating me up for it. She's not hammering me. She's just this is something we do that is appealing. And find a different way around this and look at that and how we can solve it.

It's not, oh, Nancy, you're such a loser. Here you go again. You're procrastinating or don't worry about it. You're putting a time, which isn't true. You're gonna rock it.

Yeah, I always talk about when I present is I have a very high BS meter. And so when someone says to me, you'll be fine, you're going to rock it. My BS meter goes up no, that's not going to happen. I'm not ready. And so then my mom gets even more fodder. Yeah.

Lou: Yeah. I love that. I remember that.

I love that, but it requires, like you said, Self-compassion oh my goodness. If I could be reborn with more self-compassionate that was the best thing in the world. What happened to me?

Nancy: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's when you start paying attention to the stuff like even last night I made garlic bread and it didn't go well.

And my husband was just problem-solving. He was just like, oh, did you try this? Did you try that? Super kind. And I noticed in myself being like, yeah, I tried that. Yeah. I know what you're saying. And finally, I was like, why am I getting so mad when this nothing, this is so nothing but that is because I had to admit it didn't go well, If it's that insidious with garlic bread, that means nothing.

Imagine when it's something that means something, we get any criticism or anything that comes in, we just cannot be calm.

Lou: No exactly. Because I think that we judge ourselves before other people can judge that goes on in my head. It's I'll judge myself before nine. And so you can judge me.

Nancy: Oh yes.

That's one of my biggest things is I go through everything that someone might criticize me for. I said that it doesn't take me by surprise when they do I saw that I know I'm a loser. You don't need to tell me I'm a loser. I already know it.

Lou: Tell me something though. So it's cause my experience with a BFF, because my personal, you have a voice is very timid.

You're saying that other people's BFF voices are loud. Like they would actually tell themselves, ah, don't worry about it. They're the ones.

Nancy: Ah, yeah, I had the same reaction when I realized that too is recognized. There are, I was noticing people would come into my office and they would have a really loud BFF.

They were like self sabotaging all over the place. They weren't accomplishing things. They weren't getting things done. They were blaming other people. There was a lot of gossiping and drama and true self sabotage of Over-drinking or picking bad relationships. And some of that, I'm not saying all of it, but I realize some of that is wherever there's a BFF.

There's a moment. You can't have one without the other. So it's that they are really aware of that BFF voice. That's telling them to take a break, but they aren't aware that the reason that BFF is telling them to take a break is cause their mongers so loud. I gotcha. Got it. So they don't yeah. Notice that they're being critical of themselves.

So they missed the part where they're being critical of themselves and they just engage in the part where they give themselves all these passes

Lou: and then people like us are all beating ourselves up and not giving ourselves a break.

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I can see it in my husband. He has a really loud BFF, so he can spend the day doing nothing and be fine with, it appears that he's fine with.

His Swan is he's super chill, but in reality, he's like hammering himself all day long. And the only way he can tone it down is by doing nothing and engaging in the BFF.

Lou: Oh, okay. I'm going to pick up your book again. I read that a couple of years ago, I'm going to reread it.

Nancy: It's a process it's going very slow, but I'm in the process of writing a new book where I talk more about this BFF character, because I realized now she plays a bigger role than I realize even in the sense of just how you said about when our ears that we go to talk to bring in the BFF that shuts us down.

Yes. They were like I'm not talking to you because you're just going to throw BS at me. And so meanwhile, then our monger just gets louder and louder.

Lou: Yeah. When you use the word sabotage. So for example, let's say I have a project that it's not going well. I would give myself a way out, like I would say, oh I didn't put in my.

A hundred percent effort. So I gave myself a way out, so not to feel so horrible about myself for not achieving what I want. As an example, if the project involved me showing up everyday on Facebook live, then I, maybe I will do that. And then I say, it's because I didn't show up every day. I give myself a way out.

Nancy: Yeah. That's what procrastination. Because the reason I procrastinate is when I get to the deadline, which is one o'clock when I get to the deadline, that's how I know I'm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if it's not good, it's because I hit the deadline. I did the best I could. I had the deadline, I had all this time yesterday to work on the presentation, but I was checking this and reading that, and I have plenty of time because it's too uncomfortable for me to be like, this is done.

The only time it can be done because it could always get better. The only time it's done is when I hit. Yes. Yes,

Lou: totally get that.

Nancy: So we unknowingly self-sabotage yes, all the time. And again, it's back to that monger BFF thing,

Lou: and this is what going on in my head. Can you imagine if you devoted all those hours putting together this presentation and it's not good?!?!

Spend an hour---cause I only had an hour.

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. But the thing I'm trying to reinforce for this particular issue with me is that because I took the time yesterday and what I came up with at the end of yesterday, wasn't good. Just for the record. Like it legitimately, wasn't where I wanted it to go.

And so then last night I had a conversation with my husband and we worked it out. And so then this morning I threw out what I did yesterday and I'm redoing. Trying to point out to myself. Hey, because of what happened yesterday, I came up with a better presentation. Ah yes. And so it doesn't justify the procrastination, but the message I'm trying to tell myself if I allow more time that gives more room for the rough drafts and the doing it wrong.

I'm not always going to be super inspired in the two hours before the presentation.

Lou: what I heard there, which I love is you giving yourself grace. It wasn't giving yourself it wasn't a BFF. It was giving yourself grace. Yeah. I love that one. It wasn't false feeling, making you feel better. It was giving yourself grace. Yeah. I love that.

Nancy: . I definitely feel like she has that idea of grace but for some reason we were not taught that. Yeah. Swim like a Swan and keep going. Yeah, this was fantastic. Thank you so much. I loved this conversation and I know people are going to get a lot out of it.

Lou: Thank you for making it comfortable for me to talk about a topic.

I don't know, always thought about it. Thinking that Nancy. I know you're one of my safe paid or ears and this conversation just proved that to me again, that it's safe here to talk about this. And so for allowing me to just say the words,

Nancy: thank you. Yes.

---

Episode 162: Lou Blaser and the Performative Nature of High Functioning Anxiety - Part 1

In this episode, I’m going to go deep into the performative nature of high functioning anxiety and talk with Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast.

Well, we made it to 2021! I hope you had a wonderful holiday season. I know I’m excited to be back at the podcast after a short break. 

One of the most challenging aspects of High Functioning Anxiety is the Catch-22 of the positive affirmations you receive for being so on-it and accomplishing so much versus the overwhelm and exhaustion you feel under the surface. 

Does this sound familiar?

This Catch-22 causes those of us with HFA to be extremely performative in how we approach our lives. The never-let-them-see-you-sweat idea permeates everything we do. 

On today’s episode, I’m going to go deep into the performative nature of high functioning anxiety and talk with Lou Blaser from the Second Breaks Podcast. Lou was kind enough to agree to come on and talk about her experience with anxiety and depression. 

Lou and I refer to that Catch-22 as The Swan Effect: you look beautiful and calm on the outside but underneath the surface you are paddling like crazy. I am so excited for you to hear this interview. 

This is part one of this conversation with Lou. Check back next week for part two! 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Lou realized she needed help

• What therapy taught her about anxiety and depression

• The signs for Lou when she needs to step up her self-care practices

• How both our larger culture and the culture of the corporate world keep us stuck in performing.

Resources mentioned:

• secondbreaks.com

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Lou: I'm able to now catch it before it happens. I'm able to recognize the triggers or sometimes it's not even the trigger. It's just like the change in my past change, thinking the change in my patterns or thoughts. And then I go, oh, okay. He's getting closer again. The man in the black hat until let me just double down himself.

Nancy: We made it to 2021. I hope you had a wonderful holiday season and I'm excited to be back at the podcast. One of the more challenging aspects of high functioning anxiety is the catch 22 of the positive affirmations you receive for being so honest and accomplishing so much versus the overwhelm and exhaustion you feel under the surface.

This catch 22 causes those of us with high functioning anxiety to be extremely performative and how we approach our lives. The never let them see you. Sweat idea, permeates everything we do. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. On today's podcast. I'm talking with Lou blazer from the second breaks podcast. Lou was kind enough to agree to come on and talk about her experience with anxiety and depression, Lou and I refer to that catch 22 as the Swan effect, you look beautiful and calm on the outside, but underneath the surface you are paddling like crazy.

I am so excited for you to hear this interview. This episode has a part. Yeah. And a part two will be released next week. Keep listening to hear when Lou realized she needed help, what therapy taught her about anxiety and depression, the signs for Lou when she needs to step up her self-care practices, how both our larger culture and the culture of the corporate world keep us stuck in performance.

I'm so excited today to introduce Lou blazer from the second brakes podcast, she is here to talk to us about her experience with high-functioning anxiety. I just can't say enough, Lou. I know this is hard and requires a ton of vulnerability. And so I really appreciate you being here. And sharing your story because I think any time we can hear someone else's story, it helps us, it just makes it less lonely,

Lou: yes. Yeah. And as I mentioned to you before we hit record, it's not something that I normally talk about in the grand scheme of things, but I will do it with you because you, and I'm comfortable talking about it with you.

Nancy: So how would you say let's just dive right in. How would you say your high functioning anxiety shows up?.

Lou: Okay. So whenever I think about anxiety or depression or any kind of mental wellbeing sort of topic, I always think in terms of before and after. So I call it before awareness. It was a long period of time when I didn't know what was going on. I didn't understand what was going on. So there was that before awareness and then after awareness, I call it.

And unfortunately, most of my life I was in the, before away,

Nancy: I was just going to say, what was the timeframe? What was, when would you say the awareness came in?

Lou: I know exactly the year it happened. It was 2008. So it was about 12 years ago now. And the reason is because I just felt like. I finally had to talk to someone.

So before that I was not talking to anyone. I was not seeing a therapist. I wasn't telling anybody about anything. Not my friends, not my family. I just felt like it was something that. You don't talk about Lou, cause that's maybe a defect there. And also a couple of things I grew up in an environment where you don't talk about these things.

and it's drama. You don't want drama. Do other people say, that kind of environment. So that was one. And then two, I was working in a very competitive as a lot of people of your listeners as well. I'm sure I was working a very competitive industry where the mantra was. I don't know if it's still the mantra now, but when I was there, it was awkward.

So it's either you're moving up the ladder or you're outta here. So talking about anxiety and mental wellbeing, something we normally talk about. And so those are the kinds of things that you or I hit. And then, like I said, around 2008, I just felt okay, Lou it's over and above. I just felt like I need to talk to someone.

And so I find the, on my own, it wasn't like somebody told me is that I had to seek help. It was just, I just felt like overwhelmingly, like the water is up to my nose already. The kind of thing.

Nancy: There wasn't like a breaking point oh my gosh, like it I can’t get out of bed, or I can't function in the world.

It was just your own like whoa this is too much,

Lou: This is such a cliche and people talk about this all the time, but it's the clearest analogy, that Swan that's like smooth sailing to the surface, but frantically paddling, that is the, I know it's a cliche, but that is the visual representation of what was happening to me.

And there was, there just came a point where the paddling. That was happening beneath the surface was just too much. And I said, okay, I need to just talk to someone. And I looked up my insurance service providers and I picked someone whose name sounded like, Ooh, seems like I know I liked this person's name.

I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't ask for a recommendation because if you ask for recommendations, that means you're looking for someone, right? Exactly. Fortunately for me, Nancy Remi. Thank goodness for this. The person I went to talk to was very helpful. I glad it was her. And that was. The beginning of cracking that wall of awareness that I began to understand things.

Now, having said that it's not, and I'm sure this is not your case either, or the people that you talk to. It's not like it talked to a therapist and woo

Nancy: I wish that was the case. That would be awesome. It

Lou: It was still a struggle For many, many years, after awareness.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I, one of my messages is I still struggle with this.

This is still a thing. It just is now I have coping skills around it that I didn't have in the past. My goal is always. Th the closing the gap of when I notice that I'm in anxiety and when I take an action and sometimes that's quick, sometimes that's days, a couple weeks ago, it was a couple of weeks that I was stuck in it and I couldn't get out of it, but sometimes it's like the straight jacket of anxiety and depression come over us and we can't get out of it.

Lou: Yeah exactly. That's it. And I think that is that gap that you're talking from the catching it, before you go into a spiral, that is the number one things that I learned from just being aware, because before I, I didn't know, I was. Catching anything I didn't know what to be aware of anything.

It just happens. And I know, and I'm in a spiral,

Nancy: you talked about anxiety and depression. Tell me how those play out for you.

Lou: So for the record, when I went to see a therapist in 2008 and we do. Questionnaires and examining and talking and dogging. And that's when I was first diagnosed was clinical depression.

I've heard of people having depression, but I didn't really understand what that meant or that, and this is going to sound very sad, but my impression of people who have. Anxiety disorders or depression is that they're catatonic

Nancy: talk about it more because that is common

Lou: That is my impression of people who are not able to be successful. Productive citizens. And then when I'm beginning to understand this, I'm like, oh my God, there's probably more of us who are experiencing it, but we're just not talking about it. Or we don't have the vocabulary or we just don't know how to talk about it safely.

That's when I began to understand these different things, I don't know necessarily how. Differentiate between am I going into a depression cycle? Or if this is a, an anxiety sort of moment, shorter moment, I just know the feelings that occur. Or the feelings that I begin to pay attention to. And I also have this is going to sound probably funny, but I have this visualization of my anxiety or my depression, and maybe it's wrong to interchange towards Nancy.

Nancy: But let me just say, I don't think it is. I love how you said that we get so caught up in what's the label. Like you said, I recognize these feelings. They're sending me down a spiral, whether that's a spiral of anxiety or depression, I just know something's off. And I got to take action and close that gap.

That's why I asked you to talk about it. Cause I think labeling it doesn’t Matter. It's just recognizing something's off and it isn't. Okay. And let me do something

Lou: Thank you exactly. Cause that's just another layer of anxiety.

So I have this I learned this when I was out regularly seeing a therapist where. I have this man in a black suit with a black hat. And I always say that this man is always with me. He is always in the room. It's just the most of the time he's far away, but sometimes I can feel, I can see him coming closer.

And that's when I knew. This is my acne anxiety flare. My depression is flaring up and I have to keep him at bay. He has to be out there in a corner out there where I can see him and he's out there saying it that way, but that is how it comes across in my head.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that because that's what I love about my characters is they give for me that same idea of, oh, I, it takes me. It takes out the personalization that there's something wrong with me. It's like that guy and he's getting closer and I got in here.

Yeah. I love that. I love that two things. I want to go back to first. I want to go back to the Swan analogy and you were like, ah, that's, it's overdone and any, all of that. Things that are over done. They're over done for a reason, because it is so common. And I think that it's so unfortunate how our society, we still really value the Swan.

Oh, we don't want to see what's underneath. And so it gets reinforced. Yes. Keep being okay. Keep being okay. Because so many people have to have a. A moment of breakdown, like everything comes crashing down before they will recognize AF problem. And that's why I love that you were able to recognize it ahead of that.

And I think that's important. And then the other thing I wanted to say was how you said. Just to draw attention to the idea that people don't have the vocabulary, or they don't have a place to talk about it safely, because I think that is so important. And that's one reason I love your analogy of the man with the black hat and the idea of the monger and the BFF, because it's giving us a language that isn't emotional as anxiety and depression, we have stigmatize those. And I know there's a lot of work in trying to de-stigmatize them, but I also think there's some help in changing the language.

Lou: I think there's also a sexist element of it. So there's this story. This was actually the time when I finally saw the therapist.

That's why this story was one of the first things I told her. We had this very intense project and with lots of problems and lots of headaches, but it was very visible to the company and the CEO and the board of directors. They were all eyes on this project that I was leaked to. My boss was leading and I was in the team.

And then. At the end of the day, he would call me in his office and he would tell me how nervous he is about this project, how anxious he feels about this project, how you know, he's worried about what is going to do to his career. If this project goes, Hey, why are all these kinds of things? And I am there to listen to dally.

Don't worry. Everything's going to be okay. We are working hard. We are meeting the milestones. Don't worry. We have a plan for attack. I am not. I'm going to say aloud, although that may be unfair, but I couldn't reflect the same thing. First of all, I felt like my role is I have to be absorbing it. And also a woman sending those things will be described.

Oldest stuff that we are described as when we are pulling those things. And so all the more I have to be more like in control and we have a plan and don't you worry, and I got your back and that's why you have me here. And meanwhile, I go home and I have the exact same feelings he was talking to me about.

So I think there's also that layer to it that as women we have to be, or I had to be speaking for myself, I felt like I had to be careful about how it comes across to other people so that they won't label me as emotional or drama queen or not being able to handle stress or see, she's not up to the leadership, those things.

Nancy: Ah, If the listeners could see me, I am nodding emphatically over here. But no, that is an awesome point because I think know it's both sides of the coin. It's I have to be supportive in my life who are flipping out and I can't flip out. It's a double whammy. And I think that sexism definitely plays a role there.

I think that a big part of how this plays out is that we swallow these lies without ever having anyone be like, think of it a different way. And so that's a little bit, what I want the podcast to be is a way for people to be like, oh, it doesn't have to be like, yeah, this is not something I need to swallow all the time.

Lou: I wish that I could say that if I was a little bit braver. That I could have poked about it more that I could have been more transparent about it. But I say I wish because to be honest, I am not sure if I had been bravery, if I had been integrated, been received well, or if it would have been a safe environment.

So I think that. For me, one of the most important things that happened was seeking a therapist because that was the safe environment to be able to talk about it. And then as I learn more about it, I read more about it. Then I said, oh, there are other people. And then meeting other people who like you in our community that we both belong in that weekend.

Talk about this things and it's safe and nobody's going to judge you and nobody's going to say, oh, Nancy is flipping out. And so that's safe environment. I don't know. I'm not in corporate America anymore. So 2014 I stepped away. I would hope that these days it's a little bit more open for example, I say that because pick Harvard business review, like when I was climbing the ladder, there, weren't a lot of mental wellbeing articles written in Harvard business.

I read those articles now. So maybe there's more openness. Now, maybe there's more awareness now about these things, that these are things that need to be getting discussed or managed in the workplace.

Nancy: But I'm glad you said that because I think our tendency is to, when we. See a different way of doing it, then we're like, oh, I need to tell everyone about this, or I'm not being brave, as you said.

And I think being brave is recognizing where is it safe to talk about this? It's recognizing, going into the corporate, going to my boss and being like, Hey, I'm in therapy and I'm learning this and this. Not safe, not a good plant, not smart. So that idea, we go to that black and white thinking of, oh, I'm gonna, I learned this, so I need to be brave and share it with everyone.

I think if we could just start talking about it in the areas where we're safe. And practice building up that resilience around it then potentially maybe with a capital M we can head out into the world and start talking about it differently. Exactly. Because there are a lot of messages around it. Not doing it.

Lou: Yeah, but sometimes I feel on defense because there is this message or sentiment out there that for those of us who understand that we should speak out and speak up about these things and advocate these kinds of conversations. But there's also recognizing that it could be harmful if you are just having discussions, Willy nilly about it.

Things are not paying attention to where you're having these discussions. Yeah. Let's talk about it openly all the time.

Nancy: Yeah. I agree with you. You're not going to go to someone who is completely closed down about these topics and start talking about it, but to be open to recognizing others a window here, let me share, ah, I was a Swan.

Yeah.

Lou: For example, I'm just being perfectly candid, like back in 2004, 2005. If you walked up to me, Nancy, and tell me, can you talk about your anxiety? I'll be like, Nancy, what are you talking about?

Nancy: Yeah.

Yes. I'm not going there because I would even agree. I would agree. I agree with you. I would feel the same way and I'm a freaking thing. No, I would have been like, I don't have anxiety. I help people with anxiety. It's not my thing. I'm a Swan ruined through. There's no paddling underneath, even I am just together.

Lou: Yeah. I love that word. I am together. Yes,

Nancy: because that's the biggest challenge, I think, with all of this, but specifically with the high functioning piece. That we get so much praise for being a Swan to admit that we're paddling so hard underneath is a point of shame. And to admit that we're struggling with paddling underneath is a point of shame.

I was a major off for me when I realized with food where I want to be with food is to eat whatever I want and not have any ramifications. It's not that I want to get my eating under control. I went to magically be able to eat whatever I want because I value people that can eat whatever they want and not gain weight.

I think they're way cooler than me. They figured something out and it's just fricking metabolism, but the same is true that I want to be able to do all the stuff and be on top of it and be a Swan. But it's a negative that I'm paddling so hard underneath.

Lou: Yeah exactly. Talk about that paddling thing. The funny thing for me, so I started seeing a therapist in 2008, then I was regularly seeing her for years.

And so that was obviously helpful and I was starting to read things a bit more. So my awareness, my understanding of it. But the thing is that really what's helped me is when I stepped away from corporate America. So let me just make sure I clarify that it's not that stepping away from corporate America is this illusion.

It is this because as soon as I stepped away from corporate America, I no longer had to perform they in day out for other people. Together image before when I was going to the office every day, Monday to Friday, or sometimes when they just Saturday, whatever it was, I was all on, but then I stepped away and I started doing things for myself and start my own business, this pressure to perform for others, to look together all the time disappeared overnight.

Yeah. And then I started to feel like, okay, I can allow myself to feel this way and all those other pressure disappeared over that, that to me was very helpful. And then I began to be able to be more. Aware of when it's happening that catching it because I'm allowing myself to feel it, whereas before it was like, it's always there's always this defenses up mechanism so that I'm not even really feeling because I'm fighting it all the time.

Nancy: Because it wasn’t safe to feel it

Lou: Its wasn't, right? But as soon as that thing where I'm allowing myself to feel it, so then I'm able to now catch it before it happens. I'm able to recognize the triggers or sometimes it's not even the trigger. It's just like the change in my past to change thinking the change in my patterns or thoughts.

And then I go, oh, okay. He's getting closer again. The man in the black hat until let me just double down himself.

Nancy: That totally makes sense. Cause I think that it is that idea, which is first the chicken or the egg because society, culture, corporate America is broken in this belief that we all need to be beautiful swans and to be mentally healthier and to be better human beings that we can't have that image.

And so it doesn't fit in. With what the larger culture wants us to be. As you said, I'm not advocating that everyone leave corporate America, right? It's a lot harder. The change, the behavior. If you are immersed in, you have to be a Swan. You have to be a Swan. You have to be a Swan. You have to be a Swan.

Yeah. I also wanted to comment on you catching yourself. You said it's not a trigger. And I think that is important to recognize too. That it's not like it gets triggered it's sometimes it does, but sometimes it just comes on. Sometimes it just the anxiety and the thoughts and the, it just overwhelms us, so I will say sometimes my inner critic, just as louder than other days, the monger is louder. And so on those days she can come in and it's like a straight jacket that she puts on me. It just happens.

A huge, thank you to Lou. It takes a lot of courage to be willing, to be so vulnerable.

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Episode 161: Experimenting with Meditation and Mindfulness - Part 2

In this episode, I chat with my friend Sean McMullin, the producer of this podcast, to share the results of my 30 days of Meditation Experiment

About a month ago, I challenged myself to a month of practicing meditation. 

As I shared in Part One of this series, I didn’t have a consistent meditation practice prior to this experiment. In fact, I was pretty resistant to it in the first place. (Be sure to go back and listen to this episode if you haven’t yet!)

But I was inspired to give meditation another try because of all the stress and anxiety in the world right now. 

As I share in the episode, I made it to 30 days of practicing meditation and mindfulness. Technically, it was two weeks of meditation and two weeks of mindfulness—and I get into why I broke it into chunks like this in the episode. 

Of course, I had to invite my friend and podcast producer, Sean McMullin of Yellow House Media, back to the show to chat with me about my experience. As you heard in the first part of this series, Sean is someone who not only knows me well—but he also has a meditation practice of his own and I figured he’d be the perfect person to keep me accountable. 

I learned so much from this experience and I learned even more through my conversation with Sean.  meditation.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What went well and what didn’t go well in my meditation and mindfulness experiment

• The role my BFF and my Monger played in the experiment

• Sean and I discuss the role of neuro-diversity, rules, and rigidities and how something as small as closing my eyes became a HUGE stumbling block for me in my practice

• What my meditation and mindfulness plans look like moving forward

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: A little over a month ago. I challenged myself to do a month of meditation. Meditation has always been a stumbling block for me. And so I met with my podcast producer, Sean McMullin, someone who has his own meditation practice. And we talked about my plan for the challenge. If you miss that episode, make sure you go back and listen to episode 1 55 before you can.

This week, Sean and I are back to talk about all the things I learned. If you have struggled with making meditation, a regular part of your life, keep listening because the results might surprise you. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. I made it 30 days of practicing meditation. Really two weeks of meditation and two weeks of mindfulness, but we get into all that in the conversation. I learned a lot from the experiment and I learned even more through my conversation with Sean, listen, to hear what went well and what didn't in my experiment, the role, my BFF and my monger played in the experiment.

Sean and I discussed the role of neurodiversity and rules and rigidity. And now something as small as closing my eyes became a huge stumbling block for me. We also discuss my plans moving forward. Hi, Sean. Hey Nancy. We are back again to do the meditation. Download

Sean: The followup to your meditation experiment.

Talk to us about what, why did you even do this? What was your intention going into this experience?

Nancy: Because in my own life, I had not been practicing a lot of mindfulness and everything was just buzzing in my head. And I was not settled in my body at all. And just plowing forward with everything I was doing.

And so that was one like, that was why now is the time to do this experiment. But the other thing is I've meditation has. Been a thorn in my side, in the sense of, because I help people with anxiety and I experienced anxiety that therefore the top thing anyone says is, oh, then you do meditation.

And so it's always been a point of embarrassment or shame that I don't do meditation, that isn't a regular practice. And so I wanted to be able to put that shame or you. Test that and see, okay, let's really try this and see if you are a meditation person or if you aren't a meditation person, let's really get to the bottom of this.

And that was really the crux of why I wanted to do it. Does that make sense?

Sean: It does. Absolutely. It's interesting for me to hear you talk about meditation and mindfulness is not being the same thing either. Like you can certainly, and we're going to talk more about that, like that. And the connections between meditation and mindfulness approach, this would mean how did you, what was your daily practice?

Did you have a daily practice of the day? Give us a rundown on,

Nancy: so I set an alarm on my phone at two o'clock every day. And my goal was to practice just five minutes just to do a meditation for five minutes. And for me, because I am so rigid in my rules, meditation. Means eyes are closed. I'm listening to a guided meditation of someone telling me how to breathe and where to go.

And I quiet the mind as much as possible for five minutes. That was what I did every day at two o'clock. I didn't always do five minutes. Cause sometimes it was too much. I didn't always do it at two o'clock, but when the alarm went off, it was a reminder of, okay, I need to do this, but in my mind, Meditation it is that eyes closed.

It's a long period of time, two to five minutes, which doesn't seem like a long period of time, but when your eyes are closed and you're interrupting your work day to do it, it is it's hard. My hope was that I would love it so much that I would get into 10 minutes of meditation and 20 minutes of meditation because that's real meditation.

Sean: Did you feel that what you did wasn't real meditation, correct?

Nancy: It was just five minutes. So five minutes is not real meditation. Also. It's been a great lesson for me in the idea of recalibration. And where am I listening to my biggest fan telling me it's okay to recalibrate. And where am I listening to my BFF?

That's saying, screw this. We're not doing this. This is ridiculous. You don't have to do this, stop doing it, which was pretty much every day at two o'clock. My BFF was pretty loud in her. Oh, really? You're going to do this. This is so terrible. Don't do this. This is too painful, but I do think I came to a place that my biggest fan was in charge.

It took me a minute, but I got there.

Sean: Remind me how many. Did you do it for two weeks?

Nancy: I did the five minute meditation every day for two weeks. And then I loosened up my rules a little bit and I was like, what if we just practice mindfulness every day? We didn't have to shut our eyes. Mindfulness. These are open.

Mindfulness means eyes are open and eyes open. A big difference for me in just being able to like, just soften my gaze or my desk looks out on our backyard. So being able to look out the window and so I would put on nice music. I'd look out the window and I just shut my brain off, but eyes were open.

I wasn't doing the breathing exercises. I was just letting my mind wander for five minutes and that I could do for more than five minutes. It's the eyes closed. It's the eyes closed. And so maybe it is my BFF is running the show. Cause my BFF is so freaking loud in there that it was hard for me to settle down enough to get any benefits from it.

Sean: One

thing I do want to say is, are regardless of what your BFF is telling you about whether or not you meditated the, you did meditate because for starters and you know this, I'm telling you things, you already know. It can be 30 seconds and it's still meditation, but the act of just having done it, whether or not you got out of it, what you thought you would get out of or what you wanted out of it, you still did meditate.

Nancy: I guess it's the rules. And rigidities because what did happen, which I was happy about is that. In practicing the mindfulness at two o'clock every day. Once I gave my permission that I could just have my eyes open and listen to good music and just calm my brain, then that started happening more often throughout the day.

So I would keep doing the dishes and I'd be like, okay, we're like, let's just do the dishes here, and practice mindfulness here. Or I would be walking the dog and be like, let's just walk the dog. And it was there a minder of, I know how to do this. More than I think I know how to do this. Okay. So the beginning goal, which was, I need to settle my brain down more and I need to get in the present moment, definitely accomplish that in the 30 days, because I've been able to recalibrate to notice when I'm spinning.

And be able to recalibrate that a little bit, that hasn't been a hundred percent successful, but it definitely has helped. I got a couple of messages from people after our first podcast talking about that I was doing this and they were like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're doing this. I cannot meditate.

It's so hard for me. And so with some of it is. The rules and rigidities we have around, what does meditation look like? And I have a lot of rules and rigidities around that. Yeah. So you would say what I did was meditation. I wasn't eyes closed. Yeah. Breathing.

Sean: It's the process. It's not the destination.

Now I would hope that if I were to struggle every single time, I sat down to meditate, I would propose to you and to myself, other types of meditation that within that rigidity, we think about meditation as being something very specific. And I don't think that it's as specific as a lot of us feel that it is.

You didn't try any visualization techniques. You mostly just did the breathing techniques.

Nancy: I downloaded Headspace.

Sean: Oh, you did?

Nancy: I did, but I didn't pay for it. It was two week free trial. So that's why two weeks on that. I like the heavy guided meditations. I like them walking me through talking the whole time is a lovely British accent guy that was so calming and that I really enjoyed.

And that took me awhile because the first week I was like, no, I want the not guy. Meditation once. And that was too hard. And so once I figured out that it was the guided ones I liked, then I was like, oh, then I would go on YouTube and find guided meditations. But no one had the nice voice as the guy on Headspace.

That was the best. So a lot of times we'd just do the meditation of the day and pick the guided ones. And then I did explore, like you could do watching a waterfall or something and hearing that. And I did that a couple of times, and that was nice. And then I started Googling YouTube waterfalls and would do some of those when I was in the two weeks off of Headspace, because my big fear is I was going to come on here and you were going to be like, you failed.

You did not.

Sean: Oh, it's so funny. You should say that because I was like the next question I was going to ask you, because for those of you out there in the audience, listening. I am married to someone quite similar to Nancy Jane Smith. And so I almost always preemptively know what her experience in these things is going to be.

Nancy, do you feel like this was a failure?

Nancy: I'm trying hard not to feel like it's a failure in the sense of, let me say that differently. I'm trying to recognize that not following the rigidities does not mean it was a failure. So maybe the failure is in thinking that it has to be this rigid. Instead of recognizing that meditation could take on a lot of forms and that the end goal is to be more present and grounded in yourself in the present moment, whether that is because you're doing a 20 minute meditation to start the day, or whether you're doing little bits of mindfulness throughout the day, or you do five minutes at two o'clock, it doesn't matter if the end goal is what we're going for.

And there are a variety of ways to get it. And so when I can get my mind wrapped around that, I'm like, it was totally not a failure. It was a great success because it reminded me of the power of mindfulness. I used to talk about mindfulness hacks all the time and the various ways to do that. And I've stopped doing that.

I stopped practicing that in my own life and I stopped talking about it as much. And so that was a reminder to come back to that because. I think I had gone down the path of, if you're going to talk about it, you got to talk about meditation, so don't bother talking about it cause you're not practicing meditation.

Does that make sense?

Sean: It does I'm very curious to know if you see the connection between your feelings and perception of success or failure and the expectations that you had going into it

Nancy: a little bit, I would say I expected myself to turn into a completely different person who would just be amazed by meditation and the power of meditation and would be transformed by it.

And because that didn't happen, I felt like a failure because it was so hard. I felt like a failure because every day at two o'clock I dreaded it. And even when I got into doing it and I was eyes closed. The days I did the five minutes, I never made it five minutes without being like how much time is left, how much time is left, cause it was so hard. It was so hard. And I think I, that was a failure that it was so hard. Yeah.

Sean: Because what I'm proposing is that sometimes we go into situations with expectations. And then when the situation experience or our performance, doesn't meet those expectations and that if we can let go of the expectation or not even impose them upon ourselves, then there really is no point of reference for success or failure because.

We never had the expectation going into it. Now, of course, this is like, how is that even possible? We always go into things with some expectations, because one of the things that I've found with meditation is that I've had to let go of what I expected it to be and allow myself to learn what meditation is in general.

And is. Through the process because it has turned out that it is not at all what I expected it's to be. In what way? I knew you were gonna ask me that. I think that I expected far more results. Oh, that's more immediate way. I'll admit that I thought that I'd come out of meditation, a session all zenned out, and that just doesn't happen.

Like I'm not even joking. The other day. I had an anxiety attack in the middle of a meditation session and I had to get up after it was over and go take my auxiliary anxiety medication. But was that a failure? I don't consider it to be,

Nancy: and I wouldn't consider that to be a failure. Yeah, it's interesting.

I wouldn't consider that to be a fail because I totally don't consider that to be a failure for, as I said that, I was like, do you think that wouldn't be a failure for me? And I can logically say, absolutely. I could see how an anxiety attack would come because you are calming yourself. You're dealing with what's there.

So when you settle, the anxiety can come up sometimes. And so logically, that makes sense to me. But if that would've happened to me in this time, I would have been like, I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore.

Sean: So moving from what your expectations of meditation were to what you actually got out of the experience, being a renewed interest in mindfulness.

That in a certain sense, there was a lot of success in this experiment.

Nancy: Yes. I would agree with that. Yeah. And today when I was walking the dog and I was thinking though about this conversation, and of course I was like, Sean's going to be like, you're a failure

Sean: and the big, bad Sean's going to come in and chastise you.

Yeah. Like I chastise anyone.

Nancy: Yeah. I put my Monger on you all the time that you're going to be chastising me. And then I said to myself, it isn't. A failure, even if Sean thinks it is, I don't think it is. And that's new for me to be able to recognize it's okay for Sean to think this is a failure, but I don't think it's a failure, but I think most of it is the idea that there's a part of me that is beating myself up because I made up my own rules on how instead of holding to the experiment This is what meditation looks like and that, and the goal of getting to be able to do 15, 20 minutes of meditation by the end of the month, that did not hold.

And so therefore, I, my monger is telling me you wiggled your way out of it. And that's where I say. The idea of being like it's okay to personalize this process. It's okay to recognize doing that is hard for me closing my eyes even like when we would go to church and praying, like that is just a hard thing for me to do.

In general and that's okay. To give myself that permission, but that's new for me to give myself that permission because the idea is always, you're wiggling your way out of this instead. You're not doing it right. Not doing the hard thing. Yes. That is it. Some of it is, I'm not doing the hard thing.

Yeah.

Sean: This is really hard for you and you're avoiding the work aren't you?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. But then it finally dawned on me of why is closing my eyes. The be all end, all of this, like what's the real goal here. And so that's when I realized it was the mindfulness and being able to practice that in a variety of places, I will say the second two weeks, when, so much better than the first two weeks, but I got so much more out of the second two weeks and actually was like, oh, this is nice to take this break in the middle of the day.

One of the things that's so hard with high functioning anxiety is that the push, push. And even when you might recognize you need to take a break, you're so compelled to keep going that you don't take a break and having this forced break in the middle of the day, that was a win that's super uncomfortable for me.

Sean: Have you continued?

Nancy: I have continued. I'm not as rigid about the two o'clock thing. Cause then I gave myself permission to do mindfulness elsewhere other than just the two o'clock time. So I will say, I ha I've done it every day, every afternoon, but sometimes it's at the end of my Workday.

Sometimes it's when I come back to the bathroom, I'll take a break and I'll do it. Like it would be two o'clock. The alarm goes off, drop everything and meditate. That's how I held it initially, but that has changed, which I think, I don't quite know how I feel about that, to be honest with you, because I think some of it was the rigidity, which was hard to hold, but it's also that idea.

If I give myself a pass, I just take a pass. That's why the rigidity is there. Cause I don't trust that I will really do it, but I will say this. The other thing I learned is that when I made it my own. And did you know, the mindfulness piece more so in the eyes open and then looking at my window, I got so much more out of it and it was so much more enjoyable for me.

And that was a lesson to me. It isn't all bad to make it your own, but all my life I have believed I. Broken and somebody else has the better answer. And meditation is one of those things for me, that's like the holy grail, right? If I could only practice meditation, I wouldn't have to deal with any of the stuff I deal with.

That would be the secret pill. If I could just get myself to do it, I wouldn't have anxiety and I could really be helping people. And part of me still believes it's because I did not. Do it correctly, but it still is the holy grail. I just didn't do it. Yeah. If I had done it for 20 minutes, because in my mind it is the holy grail and that has loosened some it's still there, but it's loosened up.

Sean: So do you, would you be willing to revisit meditation in the future or are you in a place where you can allow yourself to let go of it.

Nancy: I don't think I would revisit it. But I do need to really focus on that idea that meditation is the holy grail. Like I think that has loosened. And I think I need to keep loosening that belief because I do think that holds me back personally and professionally, because this is what.

I believed in the holy grail of meditation and that I was a loser because I wasn't doing it. And then I went to screw meditation that isn't the way to do it. And all these people say in meditation is the way they don't know what it's like to have high functioning anxiety. And they're totally wrong.

They're totally wrong because I can't do it. And so screw meditation. When in my book, I talk about how you don't have to do meditation. You could do these mindful. Which I believe, but I was demonizing meditation instead of saying there's a lot of ways to do meditation. It doesn't have to look like this can do it in these ways.

And so I think now that we're talking, I think I was really bouncing back and forth between the monger telling me this is the holy grill and you're a loser. Who's not doing it. And my BFF saying, screw meditation, this isn't it at all. And I, like I said, And the beginning of this conversation, I'm coming back to the biggest fan being like there's a lot of ways to do this.

Let's find the way that works for you right now. And that may change. You may find it. A year or five years that you can close your eyes and do what you think to be as traditional meditation. But right now that isn't the case and that's okay.

Sean: Yeah. Maybe even more than okay.

Nancy: (laughter)

Sean: The best thing. Yeah.

Nancy: But obviously this topic is super loaded for me.

Sean: It's interesting. You mentioned this, like it's either your broken and meditation. Because meditation doesn't work for you or screw meditation. Meg meditation is a big crock of shit, right? Yeah. But there's nothing in between that, like it's interesting hearing you like process that,

Nancy: I think. After this challenge. I came to the I'm coming to the middle more, but I think most of my life I've bounced back and forth between those two extremes. And I think if anything, that is the win of this practice. I it's a win. I didn't really see coming. It's a win that I have been more grounded and mindful and grateful to be practicing.

Like we picked a good month to be truly bringing this back in. So that's a positive, but also the idea of decreasing the trigger that is meditation and bringing it more into the middle ground.

Sean: I love that. So have you thought about what you intended on doing, going forward with this? Do you have specific plans or do you still have to process that a little?

Nancy: I don't have any specific plans, like specific, two o'clock the alarm is going to go off kind of plans, but I would like to get back into that part of what the mindfulness hacks that I did. Part of the reason I got away from them was because of COVID cause I'm home all the time, but a lot of the mindfulness hacks were built on.

And when it got into the car, when I hit a stoplight, when I got out of the car, when I got into my office, when I was at the grocery store. So I would be practicing these ways to get into my body and be more mindful out in the world. And so now that I'm home all the time, I lost those. And so that was a goal to figure out what are the cues I'm going to use to bring those back in.

So anytime I come into my office or, and when I go downstairs to get a glass of water, as I'm waiting for the water to come. Do some mindfulness figuring out what those are. The other thing that was interesting is I have had a rule around yeah. Rules, big fan rule around when I'm walking the dog. I cannot listen to anything.

I have to just be walking the dog. And then this past week I started listening to the daily podcasts and it has been so nice. But to get out of my head and to be hearing something that's going out in the world and it's not about my work. It's just something that I'm interested in because the news and politics really interests me.

So that's been strangely relaxing. And so then it was the recognition of this is strangely relaxing. Right now, because then I would make a new rule. I'm always going to listen to the daily every morning while I'm walking the dog new rule. And so to recognize that let's see every morning, let's check in and see maybe it would be helpful to listen to the daily.

Maybe it'd be helpful to have nothing on. Maybe it would be helpful to listen to a business podcast. And that is a new thing for me too, is to recognize, oh, I don't have to be so rigid. Cause I was like, this is my mindful time walking. The dog is my mindful time. This is when I'm really focused, but it got to the point where I was just like, so in my head it wasn't mindful time.

It was just like me. Hashing everything out while I'm walking the dog. And the daily kind of reminds me, there's a whole other world out there that isn't in my head. And that has been helpful.

Sean: Do you consider this to be this idea, to be someone who would have a cop-out that you can find rigidity and you can create a rule in that your morning walk, you will never impose one thing.

The rules. I will never know what I'm going to do on that walk until I set out the morning of the walk. Is that like a, do you consider that to be like a cop-out or is that like a re, could that be like a real rule that you could impose?

Nancy: That could be it, because when you said that, I was like, Ooh, that's a good rule. (laughter)

I got a little excited Ooh, there's a new rule.

Sean: If you were to bring in some openness and expansiveness in the rules and it still creates some of the elements that really entertain you and bring you comfort. Cause rules bring you comfort, but yet allow for some breathing room in there.

Nancy:

Yeah. I think that would be awesome. My husband has been so instrumental in changing that. And changing the rules. I have come a long way in my rules. And rigidities, if you can believe it, because he will frequently point out to me, there's no right way here. There's no right way. And every time he does it, I'm like media.

It's like a mind blowing experience to recognize, oh yeah, there is no right way. Cause I get so stuck in the rule and the more anxious I get. The more rigid my rules get the more anxious I get. Like it becomes a loop. Like I have anxiety, I build a lot of rules. And then with the rules comes a lot of Monger and a lot of BFF activity because that's constantly of, you should follow the rules.

You should break the rules. We should follow the rules should break the rule. So the, my anxiety. And then it just keeps circling around and around. And so when he can come in and say, there is no right way, I can breaks that cycle.

Sean: So as you're talking a thought occurs to me this way that there are, there's a right way in a wrong way to do it.

And there's the way that everyone else seems to do this, but it doesn't work for some reason for you. And then. It seems like it's a challenge to go into the way that it seems to work for everybody else and to try and find your place within it. And that struggle of that feeling of being broken because you don't fit into the way things.

What comes to my mind is I've been talking to some other people about neurodiversity and there is some extreme number, more obvious pronounced examples of neurodiversity. When you're talking about somebody on a spectrum or, and, I believe really strongly that, and don't get me wrong.

I'm not saying you have a disability.

Nancy: I hear you.

Sean: But that I remember reading somewhere once where physical disability is largely based upon the physical environment that we're in. So like with legislation that makes it so that all public spaces have to be handicapped accessible while the disability actually starts going away.

When you create spaces that are accessible, it's really the design of our space that creates. Disability or not actually what the person is going through physically. And a lot of people say the same thing about neurodiversity, where if you have a kid in school who has like really like sensory overload, certain sounds or lights or things if you create spaces where those things don't exist, the disability actually starts going away.

One of the things I know about our society is that we have a tendency to try to make everyone be like everybody else. And so going into this conversation about meditation is just I'm broken because it didn't work for me on on does this resonate with you at all? This is like, When we talk about neuro-diversity, there's a lot of less pronounced versions of this diversity.

I have it, I can't stand this people eating food, and I have to get up and leave the room, whatever. And there are for whom closing their eyes is just anguish. Now, like with more pronounced versions of this of this diversity, I wonder if it's a matter of finding. Not the way you need to conform yourself to fit, but the way that you can find what you need and make your own place in this.

Nancy: Yeah. I think I totally agree with you. I think that is fascinating. The fascinating idea, stop trying to fit your round peg into a square hole, which is one of my favorite visualization, things to think of. I still am like a better person can close the eyes. Yeah. And if I worked hard enough and figured out enough hacks and tried, I could be a normal person too.

Sean: I think what, yeah. And I understand definitely what you're saying, and I know that it's cliche, but it's like, what is normal?

Nancy: Totally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's easier. It's easier said than done. Easier said than done. And it's definitely, I think every day I say to one of my clients, stop trying to fit your square peg into a round hole.

Like it's one of my favorite phrases because, cause I think I need to hear it, but it's so different when it's, when you have been programmed and we all have been to some degree, you have to be. A square peg, you have to fit into the square hole. Even though there are oval holes and round holes and star holes, like there's a lot of different holes out there, but the, I would call it brainwashing, the brainwashing you receive.

And it was given to me as a good thing. Here's a way to, to fit in. Here's a way to, to survive without conflict in the world. But even with that, even though the messaging was from an, a positive intent, the messaging I got was because you're broken and you won't fit in just being you. And so you have to figure out ways to do it differently.

And the interesting thing, as we're talking, I just was realizing because meditation is one of those things. Like it is morphed in my brain. How much of an issue it is for me? Like how, I've amplified it to be, I don't to meditate is the same as saying, I don't like to eat chocolate.

It's just who are you then if you don't like to eat chocolate. But even though I know there are a lot of people out there that don't like deep chocolate. Relate to that at all, but it doesn't mean it's wrong, but it's that same, everybody likes chocolate. What is wrong with you? That you can't do it.

And so recognizing I've amplified it to be this big thing. And it's really just when you said that about Sable to start to close their eyes, I'm like, yeah, that's all it is. I like to close my eyes. It's not some, I'm a failure at meditating. It's I just don't really. Because of my eyes and it makes me feel too out of control.

Sean: And I love also this, like going back to the beginnings and looking towards what were the actual goals all along well success. And that, if it seems to me like the experiment has been a success, because you've been able to identify, there was this thing that you wanted, it's been weighing upon you, you gave it the college try or whatever, and. You found that one tool meditation with your eyes closed, isn't the right tool for you. Maybe someday. It might be again, who knows? Maybe not that's okay. But there are all, but now it's just wait a second. There's these mindfulness techniques that I love and they work and you felt those results.

And so now you actually get to move forward with a little less baggage, actually.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And not even knowing that all that baggage was there, like that was the interesting thing too, is also to recognize like how many people who are listening have something like this. This is oh, if I was a better person, I could blah.

And instead of having the kindness to be like, What's the end goal here. The end goal is to feel for meditation is to feel more grounded and more in the present and less spinning out in my brain and the mindfulness hacks get me there. And I do them, like both are true, whereas the meditation also could get me there, but it's something I, I dread doing.

It stirs up a lot of crap for me. So instead of being like, I got to power through that and get to the other side, which is always been. Default power through, get to the other side, instead of doing that, to recognize what if there's another way of doing this, that gets you to the same goal and it doesn't cause any problems.

In the meantime, like I almost act as if by doing the mindfulness hacks where little babies are dying, because the same meditation, the right way. That's how. Big, it gets in my brain as if I'm affecting other people's lives, because I'm not able to do meditation by closing my eyes. And even that was really helpful just to recognize when you said that about the diversity to recognize, oh, it's the closing the eyes.

You're like, that's the main problem is it's really the closing. The eyes is the main problem.

Sean: Interesting,

Nancy: fascinating on the neuro-diversity thing. Cause that never entered my brain.

Sean: Nancy that you wanted to say to the listeners? Like any sort of advice about how you would suggest would you suggest people do an experiment like this?

Nancy: The beauty of the experiment was that it forced me. To come to a reckoning with a lot of this stuff that I did not realize was there. And so for that reason, I would encourage people to do an experiment because something might come up that they don't know that it's there. And if they don't want to do an experiment, what I would encourage them to do is to have some curiosity around when they do practice mindfulness or meditation, how that feels and what comes up for them and to be able to have that practice.

Without all the judgment and rigidities if possible, which I know is a lot to ask, but bottom line, I would encourage people, whether you're doing meditation or mindfulness, opening your eyes, closing your eyes, dancing in the street. I don't care. You have to have some type of practice. That brings you into the moment that gets you in your body.

That cuts out the nonstop chatter in our brains. And I think people need to have some curiosity around what that practice is for them. And I'll happily in the podcast notes include some yeah. Mindfulness hack examples that I have used in the past to give to people. And I think I even have podcast episodes where I talk about it to give people some other ways of doing that.

Because as I've said, a thousand times, acknowledging your feelings and slowing down and getting to your body are the two things that are the most important in dealing with anxiety and are the two things that. Want to do the least. I was really bummed when I realized those were the keys, but since I have embraced those two things, my anxiety has become so much more manageable.

Sean: Incredible. And then what I love about that answer is there's so much hope in that answer too. There's so much optimism

Nancy: cause to me now it feels more free and spacious than it did when we first had the first conversation. And I was like, this is what it has to look like. I was super. Closed in what meditation had to look like.

And so to your point on the neuro-diversity, just to recognize that we have a lot of different ways of processing stuff and a lot of things, whether it's a personal preference or a hard wired part of your brain, when you're doing practices like this, you want to be doing them where they are enjoyable.

So let's pay attention to those practices or those personal preferences. Neural pathways rather than beating ourselves up for them. If it's not explainable, it's still okay. To cut out the judgment on this is mindfulness. This isn't mindfulness. Yeah. Instead of just being like this makes me feel bad.

This makes me feel more grounded. This makes me feel more connected to myself. This makes me cut out the noise.

Sean: And I'm going to do this regularly and on purpose.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yes. I'm glad you said that. Cause I do think when you can train it to be, this is something I'm doing for myself. This is a gift I'm giving myself that flips.

From external locus of control, internal locus of control. I'm not doing this because Nancy Jane Smith and Sean McMullan said that meditation and mindfulness are the key. I'm doing this because I have done it. And I know it helps me feel better. That's why I'm doing it. And that's the key. That's awesome.

Thanks for challenging me to do this, Sean. Cause I would probably would not have done this. Had you not held my feet to the fire a little bit about it. That's been my pleasure. Okay, Shawn, thanks so much for joining me on this conversation. This was really fun. I hope you get as much out of this experiment as I did at the bare minimum, I hope it encourages you to give it a try, whether it be meditation or mindfulness.

I know quieting our minds and getting into our bodies is a powerful practice.

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Episode 160: Successfully Navigating Decision Fatigue, COVID, and the Holidays

In this episode, I talk with Michelle Florendo, Decision Engineer and Coach about making the holiday decision-making process as easy as possible (or at least a little bit easier).

As if navigating the holidays wasn’t already hard enough, 2020 has turned our holiday traditions on their head. 

In my family, we’re making some tough decisions about the holidays, and emotions are running high. We’ve already canceled our traditional Thanksgiving trip to Chicago to visit my aunt, uncle, and cousins—and it looks like we’ll need to reimagine our Christmas as well, which has been pretty much the same my whole life. 

Making decisions this year has been hard. I’m sure you feel it, too. Do we have a holiday celebration with family? Do we travel? Do we stay home and have a virtual get-together? Do we need to change how we do things at all? It’s tough and the decision fatigue is real. 

In a quest to make the holiday decision-making process as easy as possible (or at least a little bit easier), I wanted to talk with Decision Engineer and Coach, Michelle Florendo. 

Michelle specializes in helping people untangle messy decisions in life and work. After studying decision engineering at Stanford University, she spent the past 15 years helping hundreds of professionals use the principles of decision engineering to make decisions with less stress and more clarity.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How we make decisions

• How decision fatigue is a thing more than ever this year and how to deal with it to make life a little easier

• Tips on dealing with all the emotions that come up around COVID and the holidays

• Ways to navigate the constantly changing information we’re getting around COVID

• Why it’s important to honor the feelings that keep coming up and treating them as data

Resources mentioned:

• Michelleflorendo.com

• Book: Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

• Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn

• Follow Michelle on Instagram

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Michelle: I think that the pandemic has definitely produced decision fatigue for a number of different reasons. One, because it's created so many more decisions that we feel like we need to really think through, but also it's taken away some of our. Outlets, like you said that help us build back our capacity.

That help us refuel.

Nancy: Singing “It's the holiday season.” Oh, a little too early. Ah, actually with the disaster that has been 2020, it isn't to early. As if navigating the holidays, wasn't hard enough. This year COVID has turned our holidays on their heads with the recent uptick in COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

This year, we are going to be making some tough decisions about the holidays and emotions are running high. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

I know in our family, we've already canceled our traditional Thanksgiving trip to Chicago to visit my aunt and uncle and cousins. And it looks like we're going to be, re-imagined getting our Christmas as well, which has stayed the same for most of my life. So in a quest to make the holiday decision-making process, as easy as possible, I learned at the talk with the decision engineer and coach Michelle Florenda.

Michelle breaks it down for us. So keep listening to hear how we actually make decisions. How decision fatigue is a thing this year, more than ever, and how to deal with it. The steps for making decisions and tips on dealing with all the emotions that come up around COVID and the holidays, how to deal with the constantly changing information we're getting around COVID and ways to reduce decision fatigue and make life a little easier.

Michelle Florenda is here to talk to us about decision-making. And I think before we started talking, I meant to write it down. You talked about how there was an engineering of efficiency. That just makes my little high functioning anxiety, heart go. Pitter-patter pitter-patter so tell me, Michelle, how did you get involved in The science of decision-making.

Michelle: So it was one of those things that I just stumbled on. Actually, I'm thinking about how far back I should go for this story. I might just start at the beginning. So when I grew up, all I wanted to be was a teacher. To be honest in the first grade, I wanted to be a first grade teacher, second grade.

I wanted to be a second grade teacher. And so on until I had a teacher who was really fantastic, but she heard me say this and she told me it would be a waste of my brain. And then I went home and cried. I think now. Understanding a little bit more about how we don't compensate our teachers enough. I think I know where that sentiment was coming from.

She was a young teacher, but she was excellent, but not getting paid her worth. But I remember at that moment I went home. I cried. I thought, what am I going to do if I'm not going to be a teacher? And I was good at math and science. And so I decided I'm going to be an editor. Yeah again, like back in the day, I didn't know of all the different options.

So I did some research and I was learning about all the different engineering disciplines. And I heard about industrial engineering, which someone told me was the engineering of efficiency, which totally. It made me get really excited because I thought that was really neat and fascinating. And then once I got into school, I studied at Stanford and they had reconfigured their industrial engineering department to merge with a few other departments.

And I found out that one of the options that I could choose to study was decision engine. Which I thought was fascinating. Wow, I can optimize decisions. How come we've never been taught this before. So that's how I landed in the decision making space.

Nancy: This is awesome. Okay. So we're getting ready for Thanksgiving and the holidays and all signs point towards COVID is still here.

It's still here and growing. Yeah. Coming down the pike is decisions about holidays, which is why I wanted you to be here to talk us through how to make a decision about the holidays. But before we get into that, I want to talk about decision fatigue. And I think a lot of us are experiencing that with COVID and 2020 in general, it's just been a really tough year.

But I know decision fatigue happens well beyond. Just this year. So tell me about decision fatigue. What is it, why is it happening?

Michelle: So I find it useful to break down. What's actually happening in our brains because sometimes people will reach out and say, is it just me or is my brain no longer working for some shape or reason?

And it's not just, it's not just them. It's not just you, not just me to

Nancy: That’s good to know just there is good to know.

Michelle: What happens is that so I'm going to draw a little bit on the work of Daniel Kahneman and his book thinking fast and slow. And so one of the key concepts from his book is that we have these two systems of thinking, thinking fast is the intuitive, super fast, sometimes emotional almost reactionary brain or a part of our brain.

Some people call it the lizard brain, but it operates. Quickly. And then there's the thinking slow. This is the it, our prefrontal cortex, our executive function, where we are analyzing things with logic and weighing all of the outcomes. That's our thinking slow part of the brain. He calls them system one system two.

I'll just call them thinking fast, thinking slow. Okay. For shorthand. And the thing is there's a lot of psychological research that's been done that shows. The capacity we have for that slow thinking is finite. So we only have a finite reservoir of energy to use with these slow thinking decisions. And that's why, if you have to do many hours of logical analytical thinking by the end of it, your brain feels a little bit fried.

And so what I seen, especially this year is a few things. So one especially in the midst of the pandemic, there are a lot of decisions that used to be just everyday decisions like, oh, do I go see my parents so that they can see their grandkids? Or do I get on a plane? Do I go to the grocery store?

Especially like really early on all of these normally mundane decisions become a little more high stakes. Because of the possible health implications. And so I'm seeing a lot more people taking those decisions and putting them in the, oh, I must think slope about it. And so now we have more decisions that we are trying to use our slow thinking around.

And then also, because there's still a bit of uncertainty because our human brains don't like. Uncertainty. We think that we, oh we really need to be sure. I need to think even harder about these decisions to make sure I make the right decision. And so what we're seeing is almost like an overload of our slow thinking part of our brain.

And that's where the decision fatigue comes from. If you think about it being almost like a fuel tank, but we're running on it.

Nancy: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And then, because there isn't really any certainty, like certainty cannot be found in the sense of there's so many conflicting messages coming at us and different parts of the country have different experiences with COVID.

It's hard to find the guidance to have certainty. Is that's is that what you're meaning by certainty? Is that upping the ante even more?

Michelle: Yes. When I think about certainty and our need for certainty, there's a couple of different things. One it's harder to come by certainty for all of the reasons that you just mentioned that the data that's out there it differs by geographical location.

Also differs every day, after. Big holidays in the summer, we saw spikes. And the data that was valid two weeks ago may not be the same as the data we have now. So there's this ever-changing dynamic aspect of information that is producing some uncertainty, but also there's the piece around I was actually talking to Barry Schwartz.

Who's the author of the paradox of choice a couple months ago about this. And he said, I think another thing that people don't realize is that. Our tolerance for uncertainty has also diminished over time, not even just this year, but as a society. And so if you think about the way that technology has been able to, give us instant answers, if we can Google things, we don't have to wait or Netflix, we don't have to wait an entire week to figure out what happened after that cliffhanger of an episode.

Technology has actually reduced our tolerance for uncertainty over time as has our societal I guess hunger for certainty. Like I think in, at least in the U S there is a bias towards, you must know, and we must know it's certainty

Nancy: and it must not change. It must stay the course, because if it changes, that means it's uncertain.

Yeah. That's interesting. Because I can Google right away. What's the capital of Florida, rather than having to not know, because I just don't know. Then I'm less comfortable with uncertainty because I get it instantaneously now. Okay.

Michelle: So there's this bias towards knowing and knowing instantaneously has hindered our capacity to just be with the not knowing.

Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. Because something we get really caught up in is a little bit of certainty, but it's more so the right, this is the right way. And I know it's the right way because I can get enough information to feed that I know it's the right way because I'm following what everyone else is doing.

So it's not so much certainty, but it's a form of that. And so what is so hard right now is there is no right way. So everyone has a different opinion. I can talk to five different family members and they all feel very differently about COVID. If it's from, it's not real to, oh my gosh, we shouldn't be even going to the grocery store.

And so finding that level of right is hard right. And taking in the information and being able to figure out what's accurate is hard. Even more so now, because as you said, I hadn't even thought about that. Just the amount of decisions we've had to make using the slow brain and all this stuff we take for granted is gone, childcare and schooling, and it's all freaking out the window. And this has nothing to do with decision-making, but also being able to be in the car, on your drive, home from work and listen to the radio, getting those regular outlets where your brain can just. Not beyond that isn't happening either.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the pandemic has definitely produced decision fatigue for a number of different reasons. One, because it's created so many more decisions that we feel like we need to really think through, but also it's taken away some of our. Outlets, like you said that help us build back our capacity, help us refuel.

Nancy: So here we are right before the holidays, it's coming down. What are we going to do? We've canceled our holiday plans already. And even our plan B is under. Question, how do we start this process of making these really tough decisions about the holidays?

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I remember. I feel like I've had a lot of conversations with people about how is it that you make decisions?

Not only in the pandemic, but in, in general. So I want to start at a very basic level because I think it's very useful for people to think about decisions in this way. And that's every decision. Has three parts. There are three components that this is like the same thing that professor Ron Howard would teach at Stanford.

So every single decision has three parts. One is what are the objectives? What are the things that matter in the outcome? The second component of any decision is what are your options? What are the different courses or paths that you can choose a mountain? And then the third piece of any decision is what information do you have?

On how each of those options might deliver against your objectives. And then also in the information piece is, what information do you not have? Is there anything you can necessarily do with about that? And as people are making decisions, especially about the holidays, it's useful to start actually with what the objectives are.

I think sometimes it can get. Really easy to assume certain objectives that matter just, according to society. And so I think health being able to preserve one's own health and the health of their loved ones tends to be an objective. Not being responsible for spreading the virus also tends to be an objective, but it is also useful to identify what are the other objectives at play because when we only focus on.

Those two things, the health things, we may forget that there are other things that might be impacted by our decision. Earlier on in the pandemic, I was talking to a number of parents about decision-making and on one hand, They realized that, trying to manage the risk of getting COVID, at least for them had a negative impact on other objectives.

They had okay, the decisions around childcare, have negative implications for how they could advance in their career or even just their own mental health or their relationship with their spouse. So it's good to articulate at least what are the things that matter? Even beyond the obvious

Nancy: to be able to do that without self-editing in the sense of being able to say, this is going to hurt my career by doing this.

And that's an objective. And I think a lot of people jump in and be like then you're being selfish and you're all about your career. And they have all this shame and criticism about that. When in reality, that is playing. So let's throw it on the table as an objective. I've talked with my mom multiple times, so she's 79 and in great health, but we've talked about quality of life versus being locked down and how she can manage that because it's hard.

So being able to be honest about what those objectives are, even if they're not socially. Acceptable or sound good, but they're on the table. And I think that is one thing to recognize is how much we do tend to edit ourselves based on what we think other people will think. And this is a time when we need to just be really honest with ourselves and the people that we're making the decision with,

Michelle: Because it's by articulating what the objectives are that you can then. Really start brainstorming what might be some of the viable options that we can help deliver against. And, none of these objectives are necessarily binary. Like it's all, or nothing, usually a spectrum along which like you mentioned quality of life.

And yeah. That happening in our family too. My father-in-law really loves being able to pick his own produce at the grocery store. And at the beginning of the pandemic, we were all delivery all. Let's try to stay out of the public spaces, but in tracking the information and just noticing the impact on his quality of life.

We're re-evaluating okay. Are there ways. Are there certain grocery stores, like open air markets from markets, whatever, where he might be able to do that, but still in a way that seems safe enough for what we're trying to manage.

Nancy: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. How can you brainstorm all the possible options?

Michelle: I think here's where I see a lot of people just start with the obvious but once you are able to pinpoint well, okay, given the options that are in front of us and how we're looking at our various objectives, where are some of our objectives not being met as much as maybe we would.

It's almost like feeling around the edges of this decision problem and then trying to see are there creative things that we can brainstorm like this being able to pick this up,

Nancy: Yeah. That's a great example of it.

Michelle: So exploring additional options should be driven by, what are the objectives that we're still trying to move the needle on.

And again, like when it comes to objectives, it's useful to think about them as a spectrum because. By thinking about them, not in an all or nothing, but as a spectrum, we can also define what is the range within which feels comfortable? I think about it almost like a mixer I'm thinking like audio levels and the mixer.

Yeah. Push up the base the whole time, the trouble, or what does it look like with the different pattern? Being able to see what's in front of you, like the obvious options and how well are they delivering against objectives now, and then seeing where you can push the edges a little bit.

And that's where you can direct your brainstorming.

Nancy: Okay. And then is this something you would recommend? My husband and I do this, and then we take it out to the. Family or we should be doing it as the larger family to begin with.

Michelle: So for decisions that impact a number of different people, or, especially if I'm family decisions, who's going to be feeling strong feelings about things it's useful to identify.

What are the objectives that each person involved has, or at least like the really high priority ones, because then you can also identify with. Overlap. And so when we were making decisions in our family and as I was consulting, some other people would identify, okay, where are people aligned on objectives?

Okay. We don't want to get sick. We don't want to get our loved ones sick. We don't want to be vectors for this disease. Okay. Can we all agree? Yes. Great then that could be used as a foundation for almost negotiating or playing with what are the other things that matter? What are the trade offs that we're willing to make given the things that we have in common?

Okay. And so the objectives piece useful to do for the bigger group, or at least get an understanding. You may not necessarily interview everyone. You can usually just from past conversations, what are the things I've come up and. Yes, it's full to brainstorm options in a smaller group and then bring them to bounce them off of others.

Nancy: Cause then it would just get out of control the brainstorming piece. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then when you move to the third piece about the information. Tell me about that.

Michelle: Yeah. So the information piece is the place where things get sticky, right? For all the reasons we talked about before, around discomfort with uncertainty and things being dynamic.

And so this is where it's useful. Not only to think about what information do I have, but also how might I, de-risk this decision in the face of uncertainty? So I framed that because in full disclosure, I'm a risk averse person. I'm willing to take calculated risks. And that's where this idea of de-risking or at least thinking about ways you can, de-risk a decision come in.

And for example, recognizing that there might be an additional decision. When you have more information. And so like for travel planning, let's say that you're making all of these decisions based on the data that you have now, but you can also establish a trip. And so for example, if the data changes significantly between now, and when you plan to take that trip, how can you build in mechanisms so that you have the opportunity to make a new decision?

If you have very different information, let's say two weeks down the line that would impact that decision for people who fly thinking about. Okay. Yeah. How can I turn this into something that I may not be locked into? Or how can I maintain the opportunity to make a new decision if I do get new data?

Yeah.

Nancy: I love that. That's a great, that takes out some of the pressure that we need to figure this out right now.

Michelle: And what we decide now decides everything forever.

Nancy: Yes. I like the idea of the tripwire. This is what we're doing until this happens. And then we're going to reassess and go to plan B or. Great.

And then do you have B and C already planned or do you go back through the process of the objectives, options information?

Michelle: So I'm thinking specifically for holiday decisions, as opposed to what do you want to do next in your career? My sense is that the objective. Are you pretty consistent or probably stay consistent through this holiday season.

And so you may not need to revisit that for the options piece sometimes who knows new options might arise or someone in the group thought of a new idea. So maybe, and so you don't have to completely rehab. But I think it is useful at least for people who are planners, which

Nancy: raising my hand here Yeah, for sure.

Michelle: There can be a level of comfort in at least exploring if you're going to set a point in time that could be a tripwire. It could establish some comfort in at least thinking through what might be different courses of action. Okay.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. And you may not have a tip for this.

It is emotionally a landmine tips for navigating that.

Michelle: What are we talking about? Emotional landmine for ourselves, or also the emotions that go on everyone.

Nancy: Like a lot of my listeners are people pleasers and they want to make everyone happy. How do you navigate. That you might piss off your uncle by saying we're not coming.

Michelle: Yeah. So there's a couple things that come to mind one.

Okay. I'm laughing because I'm totally having a flashback to when I was planning my wedding and asking friends about their advice in wedding planning. And I just remember one of the best pieces of advice I got was. You're going to piss off everyone you love at least once. So when it happens, just check the box and move on.

Nancy: That is awesome. Oh my gosh. That's so true.

Michelle: At least that's a way of managing expectations because I think it's, we forget that it's impossible to please everyone. And I do think, especially when it comes to. Multifaceted decisions with multiple people involved. There are going to be people who are not completely happy with how things turn out or even the decision that was made.

And so I think there is, like a grain of truth to that piece of advice. It's very likely we're going to piss off everyone. And so when it happens, especially if we're talking about family and over the course of our lifetimes, which brings me to the second thing that comes to mind, and it's the idea of infinite versus finite games.

And so with our family, Oftentimes we're in an infinite game with them where I don't like characterizing it as game, but basically it's, we are going to have multiple interactions over time, often over a long period of time with our family. And so what we do at this one point in time, May not make or break things for eternity, versus if we were only playing one game, this party and everything was on the line at this one point in time, which I find isn't necessarily the case with families because we have such history with them going far back before this point in time.

And we likely are going to have more experiences with them. Yeah. After this point in time. This one piece of tile, just like a quote around things always seem to matter most in the moment when we're experiencing them. And yes, it feels that way. But if people can take a step back and realize in this context that this is one holiday season over how many we've had and how many more we hope to have.

Nancy: Yeah, because I keep reminding myself of that. This is one holiday season, this isn't the end of the world. Even though I know there are people out there that their parents are getting older or relatives, they don't know how many more holiday seasons they're going to have, but then that would go back to the objective.

Of recognizing, okay. One of the objectives is we want to celebrate the holiday with this person because we don't know how much longer they're going to be here. And that's an honest objective. So then we come up with an option that fits the rest of the objectives and that we want to be safe, et cetera, et cetera.

So we got to come up with a different option. Right or that I know I get so caught by the emotions and I don't have set my mom and I don't want to be seen as a wimp by my brother. Like I have all these dynamics, but this system you laid out, even the emotions are playing. It does give a way to objectively move through all this stuff.

Michelle: Because one of the things that I like to talk about is the fact that. Especially as humans. There's no such thing as just a slow thinking. Absence of all emotion, drive of decision for humans, we have emotions just like you said. So when emotions come up, it's useful to observe what is the emotion that is coming up?

Where's it coming from? And what can that tell me about this decision? Because sometimes the emotion is coming up because it's informing us of an objective that matters sometimes just the anxiety over the not knowing maybe it's coming up because oh, The information space, isn't completely clear and likely isn't going to be, but that's where the is coming from.

And so at least I advocate for people leaning into the emotion of it, at least enough to understand how could it be used as data.

Nancy: Ah, I love that, that I'm going to use that one just in general. I think emotions can provide a lot of them.

Michelle: If we're willing to observe with them and in that way, in a way that allows us to treat them as data.

Yeah.

Nancy: That's really helpful because it isn't so much about pulling out the emotion from the decision. It is. Let me welcome the emotion in a way that I'm a neutral observer to it and reading it.

Michelle: I'm based in the bay area. So two or three months into the lockdown or shelter in place that we had here, my mom had a very emotional reaction to the plans.

We were putting forth for our quarantine pod and she had made a remark and it's very teary-eyed around. This is not a way to. And I remember having a really emotional reaction and almost wanting to make a completely different decision because yeah, I care about my mom. I could see that she was really emotional and then I took a step back to ask of myself.

Okay. Given what I'm seeing in my mom what is both her emotion and my emotional reaction. Say about what's happening here. And I realized, oh, okay. Her emotional reaction is coming from a piece around one of the objectives she has and feels very strongly about is not being. And my emotion is coming up because I love my mom.

Yeah. All right. So she has an objective that isn't being met. Are there ways that we can think more creatively again about, can we revisit the options piece to see? Is there a slightly different tweak that we can make to our plans so that her objective is at least a little bit met? I think she was also thinking about this decision as the decision for the rest of time and yes.

Yes. Huh. It's not a way to live for, five, six years. Then we started talking, we were going to revisit the plan every month. So at least we're not trying to chase all the data from a day-to-day basis, but we are still trying to reevaluate as the data and as the situation evolves. And that, that also helped her wrap her head around.

Okay, I can do this for a month. And we'll talk again.

Nancy: And that would be like the trip wire. And so for example, if you have someone in your family who isn't as militant as you might be about the COVID protocols, Then that's the data in making your decision. You're just taking that in to recognize this person isn't going to be as on it.

And so I need to make sure I am aware of that as I'm moving through this. Okay. And that also takes out the emotion and the judgment of that person. Yes. Yeah. But that's just no, this is just data. We're just figuring this out. Okay. That's helpful because everyone has different. Rules and different capacities for what they're willing to do.

It can be overwhelming and trying to make everyone happy. And being able to pull back and recognize what's a feeling what's just information I need to use forward. And then how can we come up with options that can keep all of those in place somehow? Am I on it? Yeah. Okay.

All right. Cause it does just give us a new way of thinking about it and then also just the compassion for ourselves as to why this is so freaking hard.

Michelle Yes, There's a lot of things that are going on. It's like this year has produced a perfect storm of a lot of external influences along with like society and technology and all of these things that have made decision fatigue hit us in a way that is just so significant.

Nancy: So do you have any tips for reducing decision fatigue?

Michelle: Yes. If you think about it, decision fatigue, as I mentioned is a function of our reservoir of energy for these, the slow analytical thinking, being depleted. I talked to a lot of working parents and sometimes their reservoir is even smaller than it usually is just because.

They're not sleeping as much, or they don't have the outlets that they usually do. And so the recommendation to try to expand the capacity side of things is not for working parents because there's only so much that, right? Yes. Yeah. For people who may have the ability to. Put more attention into, what are those outlets that help you rebuild your reservoir, that help you replenish your energy to make these decisions again, like refueling the tank.

But I think a lot of my suggestions lie on the other side of things. Okay. So how is it that you manage the influx of decisions that. Are demanding attention from our slow thinking brain. And so one of the things that I recommend is thinking about how can you just either turn things into a non-decision or get it off?

Okay. And so what I mean by that is can you decide things in advance? Can you create a menu for the month or a few menus, weekly menus that you rotate through so that there are certain decisions that you have to come up, but you don't need to dedicate as much energy because you've decided in advance how you're going to deal with it.

So that's one decided advance another way of getting things off your bucket. Can you delegate, are there other people that you can delegate the little decisions too? And so I think that's also another distinction. There are going to be some decisions that you do want to reserve for your slow thinking brain that you want to use that tank a fuel for.

And then there are some. Don't like, what am I going to eat? What am I going to wear? So there's the, can you just not. Have them be decisions that you need to make, decide in advance or delegate. And then another thing to think about is sequencing. Our reservoir gets depleted over time, or maybe over the course of a day.

And so can you sequence some of these decisions so that you are safe? Your energy for the things that you really do want to use that slow thinking on for the beginning, when you absolutely know that you'll still have fuel in the tank instead of leaving them for when you might be running on fumes.

Nancy: That makes sense.

Michelle: Things that you may need to use your slow thinking brain for. Can you manage how much energy it takes. And so this is where I'm thinking about holidays and deciding what am I going to get whole bunch of my family members. And I can totally anticipate myself in the wee hours of the night after my baby's gone to sleep going down the road.

Oh, should I get this scarf or should it be a hundred percent wool or should it be recycled wool plus polyester? Or should it be wrecked? I plan to time box some of these decisions. What I mean by time boxing is decide in advance how much time. And I am I going to give myself to spend on this particular decision at the end of it?

Good to be done. So that's one way of managing how much time you're spending on these slow thinking decisions. Sometimes when I talk about the time boxing thing, I'm going to spend 30 minutes thinking about this decision by the end, I'm just going to make a decision. Sometimes I get pushback because people want to make the best decision or the right decision.

And there is something that I want to say about that piece because. Oftentimes, we want to make the right decision. But we don't stop to think about what actually makes this decision right? Or good. And this is where sometimes people fall victim to a very common fallacy when it comes to decision quality.

And they think that the quality of the decision is the same as the quality of the outcome. Or in other words, if the outcome of the decision is good, I must've made a good decision, but if the outcome is bad, I must've made a bad decision. Yes. But that's not actually true. Because the outcome is a function, not just of what we decide, but also often of other things that are outside of our control.

And so like really simple example, this upcoming weekend, I looked at a weather report and it's supposed to be no rain or maybe very slight chance of right. And so what if our family decides to go on a hike and let's say fast forward to the weekend and we go on this hike and it does rain. What's that necessarily a bad decision.

Not necessarily, I didn't decide for it to rain, but oftentimes we wear that baggage of that outcome. I must've made a bad decision. And so I say all that to try to remind people that we can only make the best decision we can. Given the information that we have.

Nancy: Ah, thank you for that. That was gold right there.

Oh, it's a great reminder. Like we all know that, but the reminder of that is so great.

Michelle: I was just thinking about the holiday gift thing and wanting to make the best decision and sometimes. And sometimes it's useful to ask one, how would I know if it's really the best decision and also is that incremental difference over what would be good enough really worth the extra time, effort and fatigue, all of these things.

And sometimes. That's the mindset that can help shake us out of wanting to just like optimize, because there often is no. So this is the thing, even though I studied decision engineering, which is supposed to be the discipline of how to make or optimize decisions, the one thing that I've realized when it comes to human decision making is that there's very rarely an optimum.

Decision. And so at the end of the day, sometimes I tell clients the best decision is going to be the one that you are happiest living with

Nancy:. Yes, that is well said. And so on that note, because that was just brilliant. I think this was so helpful and just a really new way of reframing. Stuff. So thank you for coming on and be the guest and helping us through this COVID holiday time.

Michelle: Absolutely. I love talking about decision making and helping untangle messy decisions.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I learned so much from Michelle and she made what feels like an overwhelming process, much more manageable. My takeaways were to be honest with myself and to be clear on my objection. To think outside the box and be creative to honor the feelings that keep coming up and treating them as data.

And most importantly, to practice kindness to myself and to my loved ones

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Episode 159: A Weekend in the Life of High Functioning Anxiety

In this episode, I recorded the times when my anxiety was exceptionally high this past weekend. My goal was to share what was happening—and how I felt about it—to give a behind-the-scenes look at how HFA plays out in your life and what to do about it.

For many of us with High Functioning Anxiety, we have a hard time noticing when we are anxious. Our anxiety is usually swimming around in our heads WELL before we consciously notice it. 

For me, I can say I’m fine, I’m not feeling anxious then poof—I explode at my husband for leaving something out of place and realize how high my anxiety is and I didn’t even realize it. In a similar vein, my clients tell me their HFA shows up when they can’t sleep at night because of their racing thoughts.

The truth is: we all have default patterns we fall into.

Many of us have “go-to” behaviors to express our anxiety that we either inherited genetically or that we learned from a young age: behaviors we engage in and beliefs that we get stuck on. Some of these patterns might be overeating, overthinking, people-pleasing, insomnia, over-analyzing, or assuming you are wrong.

HFA is sneaky—and it shows up in the most strange and uncomfortable ways. To illustrate, I decided to record the times when my anxiety was exceptionally high this past weekend. My goal was to share what was happening—and how I felt about it—so you could get a behind-the-scenes look at how HFA plays out in your life and what to do about it.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The 6 situations that triggered my high functioning anxiety and my response to them

• Healthier ways to approach your HFA—and why practicing A.S.K. to quiet your Monger is important (listen to this episode to learn all about the 3 steps of A.S.K.)

• What a wrestling match between your Monger and BFF can look like

• How many of my default patterns tie back to messages I swallowed as a kid

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Coping with stress and anxiety is different. When you have high functioning anxiety is sneaky. It shows up in the most strange and uncomfortable ways to illustrate what I mean this past weekend, I decided to record those times when my anxiety was exceptionally high. To share what was happening and how I was feeling.

So you could get up behind the scenes, look at how high functioning anxiety plays out and what to do about it. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed hustle and a cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

For many of us with high functioning anxiety, we have a hard time noticing when we are anxious. Our anxiety might be swimming in our heads. Before we notice it, I know I can say, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm not feeling anxious. And then poof, I will explode at my husband for leaving something out of place and realize, oh wow.

My anxiety is really high right now. And they didn't even recognize it. I hear it all the time from my clients. Who are fine all day. And then at night they can't sleep and their thoughts are racing while they're trying to relax. We all have those default patterns. We fall into our go-to behaviors for expressing our anxiety that we either inherited genetically or have been drilled into us from a young age behaviors.

We engage in beliefs. We have ideas that we get stuck on when our anxiety is high. Some of these patterns might be overeating, overthinking people, pleasing insomnia, over analyzing, or assuming. You will hear an example of most of these default patterns as I talk, the key to reducing anxiety is to notice when your default pattern is a play and then take it out.

I confess, I was hesitant to share openly this window into my anxiety because my monger tells me I'm an expert in high functioning anxiety. Therefore I should be healed, but I decided to go with my biggest fan who tells me because you're an expert in high functioning anxiety. It can't be healed, but it can be calmed.

It doesn't have to run. The key is to close the gap of when your anxiety is running the show too. When you notice that it's running the show, the longer we let our default patterns run amuck, the longer we will be living in a state of anxiety too often, we engage in the BFF versus Munger wrestling match.

This happens when our anxiety is unchecked and our monger is criticizing and belittling us and to get relief, our BFF comes in to tell us, don't worry. Everything is fine. We know our monger is wrong and we know our BFF is wrong, but we allow them to fight back and forth.

Keeping us in a state of anxiety. Closing the gap means we notice this wrestling match and then we practice ask to bring in the biggest fan practicing ask means acknowledge what is really going on, acknowledging your feelings, slowing down and getting into your body. Doing a full body movement and kindly pulling back to see the big picture.

You will hear me describe this wrestling match. In my first example, bright and early, when my monger and BFF were arguing about me getting out of bed.

So I was laying in bed this morning and going back and forth between I should get up. You should sleep in. You should sleep in. You have the morning off, keep sleeping in. No, get up, be productive, do something that's important. Don't just lay here. You should get up. And then my mind started racing to all the things I could do and all the things I should be spending my time.

Until I finally gave up and just got up, and this is a common one for me. If I wake up, I have a hardest time getting back to sleep. Cause my mom is just get up. What's your problem. Get up. You have so much to do. And my BFF is stay in bed. It's so warm. Who cares? And I just lay there, going back and forth between the two.

I just lay there, going back and forth, going back and forth until finally I'm finally. Fan steps in to be like, you're awake now. So let's get up and do something. And inevitably, I feel better when I get up. I recognize this. And sometimes I just get up and go to the bathroom and come back to bed. But this morning I actually got up, made my coffee, did the whole thing, because it's just helpful to, to bring in the biggest fan.

Anytime you can get out of that fight between the monger and the BFF and the monger and the BFF. Next step was a few hours later when I caught myself spinning about wearing a mask, a common thing for me, listen, closely to why this is a thing for me and see if you can. Okay. So I just got back from walking the dog and as I was walking the dog, which is one of my favorite things to do in the world, I noticed my anxiety was through the roof.

As I'm walking through the little college campus that is near our house. And I know they have a mask mandate at that college campus and frequent. In the rare event that I see a person walking around the college campus between 7:00 AM and 6:00 AM. I will see them wearing a mask. And I don't carry a mask when I'm walking the dog because I rarely see people.

But when I walk through the college, I freak out because I don't have my mask on. I have been avoiding it at college, even though that is one of our favorite places to walk for this reason. And so today, as I was walking through the college, I actually remembered to bring my mask and I was wearing it and I thought, oh my gosh, the amount of mental energy I have spent in obsessing.

About wearing a mask through the college campus when no one is there is amazing to me. Like it is a lot of energy that I obsess about. And so when I was thinking about it today, it was the idea of what will they think of me. I'm not following the rules. I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do. And it really triggers that little girl in me who loved following the rule.

I loved being rewarded for doing it right. Getting the right thing and doing it the best way. And following the rules, which is one reason, this COVID thing is so hard, which is a whole other story. But. This really reminded me how that is such a big part of my life. And so I realized that all I have to do is carry the mask as I'm walking wherever.

And if I run into someone, I can put the mask on and it isn't a big deal, but I will get stuck. And this is where you go back and forth between the monger and the BFF, the monger, and the BFF. I go back and forth between. The Munger being like, you gotta be a good girl and wear the mask. Like you're not following the rules.

You're going to get in trouble. Someone's going to find you. Oh my gosh. They're gonna yell at you. Do my BFF being like, don't worry about it. No, one's out. This is no big deal. Stop being such a rule follower. Come on. You need to be less. And

those two voices were going back and forth as they have, anytime I come close to that college campus with the dog.

And so today I finally was like, just bring the mask, have the mask. And if you run into someone, throw the mask on. And so I almost didn't come on here to share this one because it's so silly, but I think that's why you can hopefully relate because it's so silly. The mental energy we spend between arguing between the monger and the BFF instead of just being.

I'm just going to wear a mask. And if I'm a rule follower, I'm a rule follower. And if I don't run into anyone, I have a mask who cares. It's freeing. When you can acknowledge, what's really going on. This story is a great example of the mental energy anxiety can take up if it goes unchecked and how powerful those default messages are being the good girl and following the rules is always a tough message for me, even when it is 6:00 AM.

And there's no one around to enforce the rule. Now onto the next example, when a client didn't show. So this morning feeling a little anxious, a client didn't show for our video session, and then. Sparks my, I must've done something wrong anxiety. Like I must have handled it wrong, or I must not have sent the right link or I must have gotten the right time.

I'm always assuming I'm the one that's getting it wrong. And so my anxiety is super high stressing about that and trying to figure out how can I reach them. I reached out to them. I didn't hear anything back. So I'm sure, my biggest fan is being like it's on them. They miss the link.

Things happened. It's no big deal. I did not make the mistake, but that is always my backup. Yeah, I'm the one that made the mistake. So that is where I really try pulling back, looking at the bigger picture and seeing a different way of looking at it. And then to update this one, the client did make the mistake and they didn't get up in time.

And that's why they weren't there. And it was a super easy explanation, which is 99% of the time, how it turns out a super easy explanation. And so me having to stop that over analysis and assuming I'm getting it wrong is a powerful way for me to handle that anxiety. A common default for me is always assuming I did something wrong.

I think some of this comes from that good girl pattern I talked about with the mask, the idea that my worthiness is based on me being perfect all the time. So if something doesn't happen, it must be my fault to combat this default pattern. I have a sticky note on my computer that reads stop.

Assuming you are always wrong, which has made a huge difference in combating this default anxiety. Yeah. Next up it's lunchtime and I didn't want to take a break. This is one way high functioning anxiety commonly shows up for me. It is 1230. I have not accomplished as much this morning as my brain has told me I should, or my monger has told me I should.

So here I am and I'm hungry and it's lunchtime. So I want to power through. I want to keep going. I want to hit a place where I can feel comfortable and know that I've accomplished enough. And I know that place isn't going to come. Especially when I'm hungry, that place, isn't going to come period, which is about me recognizing this imaginary line that I think I'm going to get to.

At some point it doesn't exist. There will not be a place today where I feel yay. I checked enough things off the list, not in the mood I'm in, not with the anxiety I have running around. So my tendency, my desire. How I usually do it is to just to keep pushing and all that will leave me to do is feel more.

Stressed more anxious and less, or the, and so the, what I need to do, which is the opposite of what I want to do right now is to get up from my chair, go downstairs, eat lunch, get into my body, check in with how I'm feeling and do all that stuff that I talk about all the time that I don't want to do. So this is a prime example of how.

Intellectually knowing what you need to do versus the voice of anxiety and the voice of the monger telling me to keep pushing and pushing those things are at war right now. And so I need to take control, bring in my biggest fan, walk myself downstairs and get some nourishment. So happy. I caught this moment of anxiety because this happens all the freaking time.

And this is why I always preach about being kind to yourself and self loyalty, because without those two practices, I'd probably still be sitting at my desk trying to get to a point where I will have accomplished enough that my anxiety will be. It is more than just having a knowing stress management techniques because without self loyalty and kindness, I would never stop long enough to practice the stress management techniques.

This was always my issue with all the self care messages out there. First, you have to feel worthy enough to care for yourself. For years, I would recognize that I was stressed and I should be doing some type of self care, but because I believe the voice of my monger that said, keep going. I never implemented them.

It wasn't until I actually developed a loyal teacher, myself, that I could notice the stress and realize that I was never going to accomplish enough to quilt my anxiety. I had to get up out of the chair and change what I was doing. Oh, and a quick update. I did go downstairs and eat lunch. I did some stretches and I came back to my desk more refreshed.

It still wasn't a high productivity day for me, but I was able to accomplish stuff without beating myself up. This incident took place the next day when I had the afternoon off. Okay. So today is a common way to my anxiety plays out in. It is in the way that I think that high functioning anxiety really gets to our worthiness.

And so having a day where I have nothing planned can be very anxiety producing. And today I just had the afternoon where I had nothing planned. And so the idea of doing something that doesn't require that isn't productive, that doesn't have an end goal that doesn't get me something. And just something that I really want to do when my anxiety is high.

It's even harder to do those things. And so that idea that I have to be doing something productive and I have to be worthy and I have to be, making sure that I'm getting stuff done. And so a lot of times when my anxiety is high, I don't have the energy to fight that I don't have the energy to bring in my biggest fan consistently and really go after something that I want to do, like reading or baking or doing something that just has no meaning other than it brings me joy.

And. When I'm when my anxiety is high and I try to do one of those activities, my monger and my BFF for just hammering me and that, world wrestling Federation match between the monger and the BFF comes out. And so I try to pull it back and I'll end it. Doing nothing numbing out in front of the TV or you don't give you my brain arrest by playing video games.

And I don't know, I don't know if that's okay or if I should be doing it differently, but that's how I know when my anxiety is high. That's how I give myself a pass. And then there are times when I can go in and I can bring in my biggest fan and I can read, and I can do something that I really want to do because my anxiety.

Isn't as high that day. And so that's an ongoing thing that I can continually working on is really fighting that idea that everything I have to do has to be productive and efficient and worthy. And so this example is an example that is ongoing for me, that I'm continually fighting. I've noticed during COVID.

Doing nothing idea has been even harder for me. I'm assuming it's because of increased anxiety and I'm trying to be kind to myself as I move through this. This is my way of handling it for now. And it is something I'm aware of being attentional around, moving back and forth between being kind, giving myself the past and knowing I don't want TV and playing games on my phone to be a way of life.

So I'm challenging myself to pull out of that in little ways during my time off. Baby steps with this one, for sure. And my last example is another one of those default patterns that is on repeat. So I'm a little late in recording. This one actually happened last night, but this is a common scenario for me because I tend to fall asleep in the evenings.

I tend to fall asleep before nine. If I can make it to nine 30, it's like a big day for me. And, I get up early in the morning, but still, I wish I could stay awake longer at night and because my husband is a night out and I would like to be able to spend more time with him in the evenings and I just can't do it.

And so every night, I either fall asleep on the couch or I drag myself upstairs and my monger is just hammering me for the fact that I can't stay up, that I can't handle it. And so even though my husband has said to me, I'm care that you can't, it does not bother me that you go to bed early, but man, for some reason it is one of those messages that is stuck in my brain.

That I'm a terrible person because I can't stay awake. And so I think. That for me is there's another one of those ongoing that I'm constantly bringing in my biggest fan to remind me it doesn't matter. This isn't a big deal. The only person that's affects is your husband. And he has said it doesn't affect him.

So when we get those hardwired messages, and I think I got that probably as a little kid, that a cooler person can stay up later and I'm not a cool person, but when we get those default messages, it really keeps us stuck and that can really be challenged. I know some of my default patterns are related to messages.

I swallowed as a kid, not based in rationality, not based in any fact, but I can remember as a kid that the cooler kids always stayed up late. And because I had an early bedtime, I wasn't cool. And so this insecurity comes out as anxiety. When I fall asleep on the couch, I sometimes have a hard time going to sleep because I'm spinning in my head about it.

And then inevitably my biggest fan comes in to say, chill out. You aren't a kid, you are a grown woman who gets to go to bed whenever she wants without criticism. So often our mongers play those tapes, those default patterns over and over. And unless we catch them and stop them, they will play. They're causing more and more anxiety.

We have to stop them using ask. The biggest issue I see with high functioning anxiety is we tend to tell ourselves this is just how it is. Or we berate ourselves for feeling anxious. I hope this podcast episode helped you feel less alone. I hope it'll help you notice when your monger is talking, when you're engaged in a default pattern and give you hope that feeling anxious.

It isn't just how it is. My anxiety obviously still plays a role in my life. But it doesn't run my life anymore. These examples I gave from this past weekend would have ruined my mood a few years ago. They would have changed my weekend in a huge way. Now I can notice I'm feeling anxiety, practice, ask, and know that this isn't a permanent state.

This is just an experience I'm having because my default patterns are kicking. Thank you so much for being here and listening. If you like, what you hear, please share it with others. You think would be interested or leave a review on apple podcasts

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Episode 158: What is Self-Compassion with Gary Ritts

In this episode, a conversation with my childhood minister, Gary Ritts about self-compassion, grace, empathy, Brene Brown, sympathy, loving relationships, and kindness.

The self-help industry is FULL of concepts that are meant to inspire you into a better version of yourself—go big or go home, love yourself, rewrite your past.

But what happens when they’re overused and lose all their meaning? How can they then motivate you to live happier and more fulfilled?  

And what about self-compassion? 

I remember reading Tara Brach’s book, Radical Acceptance, where she tells a story about a woman’s mother who was dying. On her deathbed, the mother opened her eyes and said, “You know, all my life I thought something was wrong with me. What a waste.” 

I can still remember where I was when I read that line. At that time self-compassion was NOT a part of my life. In fact, it was the exact opposite: I believed something was wrong with me and I was constantly looking for the fix. Kind of the opposite of self-love and self-compassion.

The bright side is that one line prompted my quest to figure out what self-compassion was and how it looked for me. It was a cautionary tale—and I swore I would figure out a way to be kinder to myself.

In today’s episode, I’m bringing you a conversation with my childhood minister, Gary Ritts. We started our conversation with self-compassion and went down a number of avenues beyond it into grace, empathy, Brene Brown, sympathy, loving relationships, and kindness. 

This is one of my favorite episodes I have ever recorded and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How self-compassion is radical self-care and what self-compassion can look like

• Ways that self-compassion can look for different people—and how to find ways to recharge yourself so you feel more complete and fulfilled

• Why compassion and self-compassion are a choice that requires practice by learning and doing

• How grace is something that is given to us—and why we can choose to accept it, even if we don’t think we are worthy

Resources mentioned:

• Book: Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life With the Heart of a Buddha by Tara Brach

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

The self-help industry is FULL of concepts that are meant to inspire you into a better version of yourself—go big or go home, love yourself, rewrite your past.

But what happens when they’re overused and lose all their meaning? How can they then motivate you to live happier and more fulfilled?

And what about self-compassion?

I remember reading Tara Brach’s book, Radical Acceptance, where she tells a story about a woman’s mother who was dying. On her deathbed, the mother opened her eyes and said, “You know, all my life I thought something was wrong with me. What a waste.”

I can still remember where I was when I read that line. At that time self-compassion was NOT a part of my life. In fact, it was the exact opposite: I believed something was wrong with me and I was constantly looking for the fix. Kind of the opposite of self-love and self-compassion.

The bright side is that one line prompted my quest to figure out what self-compassion was and how it looked for me. It was a cautionary tale—and I swore I would figure out a way to be kinder to myself.

In today’s episode, I’m bringing you a conversation with my childhood minister, Gary Ritts. We started our conversation with self-compassion and went down a number of avenues beyond it into grace, empathy, Brene Brown, sympathy, loving relationships, and kindness.

This is one of my favorite episodes I have ever recorded and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

How self-compassion is radical self-care and what self-compassion can look like

Ways that self-compassion can look for different people—and how to find ways to recharge yourself so you feel more complete and fulfilled

Why compassion and self-compassion are a choice that requires practice by learning and doing

How grace is something that is given to us—and why we can choose to accept it, even if we don’t think we are worthy

Resources mentioned:

Book: Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life With the Heart of a Buddha by Tara Brach

Coach In Your Pocket

The Happier Approach Book

Transcript:

Gary: Self compassion is not a constant. It comes and goes when you're in the loving relationship, which relationship implies a connection. I think you may be feeling self-compassion. The trick is to recognize that by being in a relationship, you are worthy of that grace.

Nancy: Self-compassion is a phrase that has been used so much.

It has lost all meaning. I remember reading Tara Brach's book, radical acceptance, and she tells a story about a woman whose mother was dying on her death bed. The mother opened her eyes and said, all my life, I thought something was wrong with me. What a waste. I can still remember where I was when I read that.

And at the time self-compassion was definitely not a part of my life. In fact, it was the exact opposite. I believed something was wrong with me and I was constantly looking for the fix, but that one line started me on a quest to figure out what self-compassion was and how it looked for me. It was a cautionary tale and I swore I would figure out a way to be kinder to myself.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Today, I'm bringing you my conversation with my childhood minister, Reverend Gary Ritz, our topic area was self-compassion, but we went down a number of avenues in this conversation.

We talked about grace empathy, Brené Brown sympathy, loving relationships and kindness. This is one of my favorite conversations I've ever recorded on the podcast. And I hope you will enjoy it as much as I do. When I initially asked Gary to be on the podcast, I gave him the subject matter self-compassion and provided him with a list of things to think about what I loved most about this conversation is the different topic areas we covered and the different lens through which Gary sees the world.

We can get bogged down and hearing the same message said over and over. And Gary provided me. And hopefully you, with some new ways of looking at things, some of my takeaways were self-compassion is radical. Self-care. Compassion and self-compassion are an act. They are a choice, not something that just happens.

It's a practice, something you learned and do. Grace is something that is given to us that we can choose to accept. Even if we don't think we're worried. Give us a quick introduction of yourself. If you don't mind,

Gary: Been in the business for…wow. 50 plus years nowadays, a United church of Christ retired minister. I still have my hand in doing services on weekends to fill in for ministers that are absent or not able to be there.

I went to school in Ohio and then seminary in Denver, Colorado, probably one of the. Important things in my life. It was a very liberal open-minded seminary at the time. And it just opened me up to a faith that was originally intellectual. And then became more a part of me and more inside my heart and down in the body.

The head trip had to change some things. I understood what I'd grown up with, what I've learned in church. And I tend to be a little outside the door. When it comes to faith and understanding who Jesus was. And what love is that he talked about and trying to help people have an open mind to express and accept all kinds of religions and their interpretation, because there's so many similarities.

I believe more than differences. It's a more of a literal versus open-minded interpretation.

Nancy: Well, I'm so glad you're here. And not that it's the same as his Christianity, but I think for me, that's what switched in when I was able to embody the principles of psychology that I had learned, but I just knew them intellectually.

And I find that a lot with my. Listeners and clients is that we can recite the concepts. We can talk about them intellectually, but really letting them sink in and become a part of who we are is a very different process. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So today we are talking about self-compassion and it is something I talk about a lot.

I tend to use the word kindness. Self-kindness a lot because self-compassion has been beaten to death. Yeah. In people who just have the intellectual understanding, it's lost all meaning because we know we need to be compassionate to ourselves. We know we need to have more compassion. And yet the idea of it is just befuddling.

Yes. So tell me. What is your definition of self-compassion.

Gary: It helped me to start to think about the differences between grace and self-compassion. And to me, first of all, grace is something else. That we can receive or not. And also the notion of selfishness versus self-compassion how those often get confused.

I certainly understand that, but as I look at it, self interest selfish ness is the end point is. Me, when I'm getting something it's selfish it's for me where compassion and even self compassion is more a part of becoming a part of a flow that starts with grace. It comes through us, but it doesn't stop there.

Then it goes outside of us of compassion. In its expression needs to become an act or reaching out and touching another life. Whether that's just listening to someone to help them be real and to be validated in who they are. And all of that can get real mixed up in terms of self-worth. And again, it gets confusing when you try to measure who you are by what you do.

As opposed to simply being who you are and what you do is out here, not a part of your worth at all, but it's a real fuzzy line. I believe that I think it's Brené Brown that actually says that compassion is not a virtue. It's a commitment, which means it's an action. It's something you've got to choose to do.

And you it's not that you have it or not. You just either do it or you don't. And that is a conscious choice, grace. Grace is available. And the challenge, I think for all of us is to accept it to allow it to come inside of us and validate who we are without question. And then you mentioned about the Jesus thing about loving your neighbor as yourself, which is actually an old Testament statement that Jesus is there to his favorite Leviticus, quotes, love God and love self as neighbor itself.

And to me. It's you mentioned, how can you be in a loving relationship and yet may not love yourself? I don't personally think that's possible because I think that there are moments that again, self compassion is not a constant. It comes and goes. Yeah. So when you're in the loving relationship, which relationship implies a connection.

I think you may be feeling self-compassion the trick is to recognize that by being in a relationship, you are worthy of that grace, that free gift that this other person is giving to you, therefore. When Jesus says, you love your neighbor as yourself to me. I look at it as you are loving your neighbor at the same time, you are loving yourself.

So therefore it becomes like a circle. And if you don't love yourself, I think there may be some not falseness per se, but lack of depth to what you're giving the other person lack of maybe a part of yourself is you're doing what you're supposed to do. Which sometimes can back up into you and you might feel good about what you're doing.

And that's a little bit of self compassion too. And but again, the word I like to use as you practice compassion and you receive grace, it's free.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. When I you said love yourself before you can love someone else. I always have, I have a big trigger around that phrase.

Gary: Again, let me correct that though.

I'm not sure. It's always before.

Nancy: There you go, okay, go ahead.

Gary: As in as the same time as,

Nancy: oh, okay

Gary: I know what you're saying. I can't love someone unless I love myself, but I'm not sure that's what he was saying. No, I think he was saying you love your neighbor as you are loving yourself.

Nancy: Okay. So the trigger was when I was single for a long time, people would say, oh, it's because, you got to love yourself before you find someone else.

And I'm like, okay, but come on. That's a lifelong thing of loving myself. That's not something I'm just going to master. And then proof's going to come in this amazing person to love.

Gary: I suppose you could build a wall. If there's something in the back of your mind is saying, how could anyone love it?

Yes, then you do have an issue and you've got a block that you're putting up for not allowing that reciprocity to take place. And certainly again, I would appeal to the past how we were raised Bernie. I love her story about the squad she couldn't make and that's. Put that roadblock up for her.

And I, yeah, I think you're right about that. It's there are things there that this allow us to love ourselves that say who do you like for an egg? What do you think?

Nancy: Yeah. I would say that my marriage has helped me. The love of my husband and him continually reminding me of, I'm in this like I'm on your side as much as I want to be like, fighting with him or whatever, for him to bring it back to be like, dude, we're a team, stop trying to push me away.

That has led me to love myself more, like he has shown me to do that. So I was going to say, I think it's layered. Oh yeah. Yeah, I love hearing those words. Thank you, Gary.

Gary: So I wrote down here is empathy and compassion the same thing as empathy and sympathy are the same thing, Are love and compassion, the same thing. Love and compassion are not synonyms. One thing when Jesus uses, when they write the word love in the new Testament, it's actually the Greek word. Then what we don't know is what they're actually saying is because there's three Greek words for love. Aeros, “Oh, I love You” that kind of stuff. And then there's Phileo Philadelphia brotherly love and then there's a compassionate love Agape, which is outward flowing from a sense of love that is deep and real. And doesn't expect return. It's simple. Outward most of the time, that's the word being used in the new Testament.

Not all the time. Phileo was also a word used in the new Testament, but again, to me, that compassion, it's the biggest kind of expression of love and faith and whatever that the caring for the other person without expectation of reward in any kind of including heaven.

Nancy: Because for me, it was helpful. Even though empathy is something you give to other people for myself. When I could think I need to give myself some empathy here was helpful for me to think about it rather than compassion the word compassion mostly because of Brené’s work and her education on what empathy is.

And I can recognize because the tendency is to try to hack ourselves right to being what's quote unquote acceptable. We've been well-trained yes. Rather than the idea of let me first accept where I'm coming from and where, who I am and then do whatever. But even that becomes touchy because then it's okay, I accept myself for who I am.

Let me get to the part where I get. Rather than truly accepting myself for who I am, warts all, like we put a lot of lip service to that actual doing it is hard.

Gary: It is because there's the mind, the little speaker in the mind is always correcting us. I had a lady say isn't the conscience hour.

A voice of God. And I said, no, that's what our parents have taught us. That's what our society has taught us. It's a tape playing over and it's just, you don't listen to it. And again I guess I could say that I really came into my faith through, Meditation quieting that mind, by shutting down all the sheds and the arts and everything had been taught and just be in the presence of whatever came into me at that time.

And it like one of the illustrations I always use was when I made a call in a hospital, I would always stop at the door before I went in and I would empty myself. Everything that I had, that I was carrying at the door and walk in and just be there for that person. Now, granted, like you say, it's not always easy, cause you might've just been yelled at, by somebody on the street or something. Yeah. Why are you parking there? You gotta leave it behind and you just because being in the present moment, that to me is the most powerful way to find grace. To find self-worth and even to be finding the self-worth of another person is to be in the moment.

I love the difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is to feel with at the same time as sympathy is to feel full. Someone you may understand it, what they're feeling, but you're not at the same moment feeling it. I've always remembered that when I'm walking into a room, it's not sympathy. I'm looking to give it's empathy.

I need to try to feel, even if I've never been in that person's position, which sometimes I can't because. I haven't been in their position overnight, but I'm trying to get as close to it as I can, to the feeling of fear, which we've all had a feeling of confusion, which often leads to all kinds of, what's coming out of this person.

And I try to look behind that and say, okay what's the sadness here? What's the pain? What is the, what are you struggling with? So again, I love that ability to let it go. Yeah. Be in the moment and focus more on, on w what's going on.

Nancy: It always strikes me, this is, and this is my observation.

I did Brené Browns training in the daring way, and I think it was my bias and Brené’s bias towards empathy. So she says the key to decreasing shame is empathy and self care. But there was empathy and then self compassion, like empathy was the bigger message than self-compassion and she had that bias.

And then I took that bias and made it even bigger because I knew empathy. I didn't really get self-compassion. And so I came back from the training and I'm teaching about these two things and it's a lot of empathy. And then yeah. You got to love yourself too. Whatever. I don't really know what that means, but let's talk about empathy.

And so my clients would go out into the world and they would feel shame and they'd find they tell the story. They'd find empathetic people and. They come back to me and they're like,

Gary: Again. They have to ask themselves, are you finding simp empathetic or sympathy?

Nancy: It didn't matter. Cause they weren't able to give it to themselves.

They weren't able to get self-compassion. They were just doing empathy and people were saying, oh, that must be really hard. And we're in it with them, but it wouldn't go in because they couldn't give themselves the permission. Yes. Because I was teaching them. And self-compassion. And so then I saw Brené Brown was with Kristin Neff.

Who's an expert in self-compassion. And Brené said, I really struggle with self-compassion like, this is something I really struggle with. And it was like a light bulb went off in my head and I was like, oh, I struggled with it too. And your teachings and my teachings. Messing this all up, and so I flipped it on its head and was like it's both, but I need to be amping up the self-compassion piece.

Cause I got empathy. I got empathy all day long. I don't have the self compassion. And once I realized that's when everything started shifting. For me. And I got to know myself on such a deeper level because my mentality was everything that comes up for me. That brings shame. I got to get past it and move on so I can fix it and get better.

Versus let me acknowledge this and give myself some support around this and then see what can happen.

Gary: Yeah. And I would again say that if you are empathetic, there's a part of you that is worthy to feel empathy. You know what I mean? But your head might not realize that because there's too many messages going up, but to be empathetic, you have to have emptied yourself and felt worthy of feeling.

Rather than just for, and give him you trite phrases and cliches. Good for you kid.

Nancy: Well thanks, (laughter)

Gary: Heck of a journey!

I know when I am tired of giving, being compassionate and I need some self-compassion to recharge to, in other words, to do something for myself. That will recharge that spiritual part of me. And that's not as easy as it sounds. Oh, that means I got to go out and work in the yard or I've got to go build something.

Not necessarily it's whatever you come away from feeling. More complete, more accomplished walk in the woods, meditation, yoga. It's just, it's different for all of us. I think it's composed of a lot of things and I can always remember. I never had a sabbatical til I got left the Methodist church and went into the United church of Christ, where it was required in your contract.

Judy and I went to the native American college. And I came back from that. So recharged because I was so fed by a totally well, not totally a very deep spiritual reality in the native American culture, connected to the earth. And my soul was being fed. My compassion. I was received. Compassion, from people and who talked and shared.

And I came back and look out, those sermons were probably the best I've ever preached, but I could feel different walking into a hospital room because I had practiced self compassion, doing something for myself, not just self acceptance.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think that, that's where in, in the model that I talk about and you have that, the voice, the monger, and then we go, oh, let me give myself a break.

And we go into what I call false self-compassion and that's the BFF voice, which is go ahead, have that drink, take the day off and watch Netflix. But that isn't soul nurturing, right? That is just. I numbing. And then the third character is the voice of the biggest fan who comes in to say, Hey, I think maybe we need to do some mindfulness exercises or we need to meditate, or we need to run or take a walk, go outside, which isn't necessarily what we mentally want to do.

A lot of times our minds is telling us something. Different than our soul.

Gary: Yeah. And sometimes with should attach. Yes. Yeah. You should do this.

Nancy: Yeah. Many times,

Gary: And certainly part of that reality for you and us is that over time I learned that Judy, what she suggests will be helpful to me. And there's still a little part of my mind said, I don't want to do this.

I just want to sit and watch Netflix. But the other side of me says, If you go with her lead, you're going to be better when you come back. And that's always the case. And probably that's a part of that. Self-compassion too is find the people you trust, like Bearnaise little, one inch square to also give you some thoughts on what's good for me to do you know me?

What might be good for us or for me, or.

Nancy: Yeah. And there's paying attention to, oh, when I do this, I do feel better, and remember that's even knowing, like when I eat an apple, instead of grabbing the chocolate chips that I want, I feel bad. Yeah. Yeah. And so then it's oh that's nurturing to myself.

So let me do more of that. But it's our brain convinces us when you can get away with the chocolate chips. So do the chocolate chips, play with watching Netflix, why wouldn't you? Because we're always gaming the system. So I have a question about grace. Okay. What happens if you, you receive grace and you don't have the self-compassion piece,

Gary: I would say you cannot receive grace.

If you don't think you're worthy of it receiving in a sense of acknowledging, accepting and feeling because you can block right. And it can come from we've just talked about all many directions of why we're not worthy. And then probably the hardest time to accept grace is in the midst of forgiveness of ourselves because guilt and shame are huge roadblocks.

And that's, I think the power of a priest confessions in the Catholic church is to have that person who will take that away from them. To allow the grace to get into us. And of course the Protestant understanding of that is that we are our own priests, but that's often not easy. You have to be willing to forgive yourself.

That it was wrong. Like you say, and you did something wrong. Okay. I did it wrong. It doesn't make me a bad person, bad choices, maybe stupid but not a bad person. And therefore the grace can then get in. But I agree with you that without at least an openness to self-compassion, if you've got a block there, the grace, you're not going to recognize it.

I'm not saying you don't have it or get it. You might not.

Nancy: I get it. I get it.

How can you teach someone? Self-compassion

Gary: I think you probably have to come in by a back door, teach them awareness, quieting the voice. I think sometimes self-compassion will happen. Yeah. And also help them reflect on times things they've done that have made them feel good, because I think we all do that.

And I think people will know that feeling. Whereas you help them name it as self-compassion, they can begin to see it as connected. Oh, it's actually a feeling or even deeper than that. It's a place to stand. And again, a lot of tummy psychology and all therapy is helping people now. The issues and the positives and the negatives and helping us put a name to what we're experiencing.

And again, I like to use Jesus. People get all upset that he's a miracle worker. No, he's not. He helps people name their emotions. That's how they got. You helped them name them. The demons. He called them. They called them back then it's a naming feelings is what he was doing. Nothing magical.

Certainly a big. Realize that when you feeling those feelings of being replenished, you are receiving grace, help them put a name on that. As this is what you're feeling. It's a good thing. What's happening.

Nancy: Yeah. It's always, it's so funny. I spent the majority of my career and the majority of my life, trying to hack my way out of my feelings.

Like you shouldn't be feeling this way. You should be feeling this way, and it wasn't until I figured out, oh, I have to acknowledge this stuff. And the most powerful thing I can say to myself is, so what if you are, so I'll say, oh, I'm angry about this, but I shouldn't be angry. I should be blah, blah, blah.

And then I'll be like, so what if you are angry? And it's oh yeah. What if I am, like then I can move around in it when I can give myself the permission to do it, but we spend so, or, I have spent so much time trying to pretty everything up. And make sure that it looks okay instead of giving myself the compassion to say, what if you are imperfect?

Yeah. Yeah.

Gary: When our psychologist says it's neither good nor bad, that's a heck of a message, but that's what I got in seminary was it's okay. What you're feeling is okay. It's you just, sometimes you need to experience it. If I could feel pressure building, oftentimes I knew I needed to cry. Okay.

And I had songs that I could play on the piano that would make me cry and I began to worry, that's okay. It's okay to do that and go because once you move through it,

Nancy: oh, absolutely.

Gary: The weight is off your shoulders and you can breathe again.

Nancy: Because it's almost like there was a backlash, I think, and cognitive behavioral therapy is wonderful for its purposes, but it does not help with the acknowledging the feelings piece.

Like it is definitely ha let me hack my way out of it. And cognitive behavioral therapy is so popular for that reason because I can analyze. Yeah. Makes sense. Yes, exactly. And I think it's embracing what doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Gary: It's the key and the hard work of therapy. Yes, because it's draining, it's tiresome, you're fighting and fighting.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I get so tired of, I'm tired of saying it. I get tired. Cause I know my clients are like, I don't want to freaking name what I'm feeling right now. Lady like solve the problem for me. Yes. Okay. Okay. Feeling angry. Now tell me what to do, okay. Any last words you would say

Gary: last word. So just to go for it, practice self-compassion.

Awareness Grace's there. It's free and it's calming. It's all around you, but you got to get the blocks out of the way and let it in, and then you can give it away in compassion. Amen.

Nancy: Amen.

---

Episode 157: Unhooking the Lie that You Need to be Mean to Yourself

In this episode, I chat with my friend Jamie In this episode, Jamie about her anxiety and how her Monger shows up in her life, and ways your Monger might show up in your life, too.

For those of us with high functioning anxiety, the voice of our inner Monger is loud. 

It’s the voice that tells us we’ll never succeed. 

It’s the voice that tells us we’re an imposter and we’re mere moments away from being found out. 

It’s an internal voice of belittling and nastiness. It consistently makes us feel like we aren’t enough. 

For those of us with exceptionally loud Mongers, we can’t WAIT for the day that our Monger disappears. And while we’d like to silence that inner critic once and for all, what happens if you feel like you’d never get anything done without your Monger? What do you do then?

That’s exactly what my dear friend Jamie told me… and it sparked an epiphany. I needed to get to the root of why my own Monger was so belittling, shaming, and mean—and why I believed that I needed that voice. In this episode, Jamie and I are chatting about her anxiety and how her Monger shows up in her life, and ways your Monger might show up in your life, too.

To learn more about the Monger, listen to Episode 110: The Voices In Your Head—The Monger

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How Jamie brings her own sense of humor to the many rules and rigidities we have in dealing with our anxiety

• The different ways that our Monger can show up: mean and relentless or critical and pushy and ways our Monger can shame us and keep us stuck in all areas of our lives

• How Jamie realized that her Monger would never fully go away but instead she could make her part of the team

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Have you ever had a conversation with someone that sparked an aha moment that helped you see yourself in a whole new light? I had one of those conversations a couple of years ago with a dear friend of mine after I'd done a presentation on mongers. First, let me back up a little bit. For years, I taught about the monger, and I was fascinated by this concept of the inner critic because my inner critic was driving me crazy. She was constantly talking to me, and constantly telling me what to do, and constantly making me feel like crap. I'd done some research on what to do with the monger, and I was teaching about it and talking about it in a variety of different places, but none of it was really working for me in my own life. But, I hadn't admitted that to myself. I guess a part of me was just hoping one day it would click and, poof, my monger would be gone.

So, back to the conversation. I was doing this presentation at a local wine bar on the subject of mongers. It was an open presentation to the public, but a number of my friends came there to support me. And after the presentation, one of my closest friends, Jamie, came up to me to say, "Oh, my gosh. Love the presentation. You're an amazing presenter. And I'm not going to do anything you said because I really need my monger. If I didn't have my monger, I wouldn't get anything done." We laughed, and joked, and ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, and we went about our business.

Then, later as I got home, I realized Jamie was right. I really believed I needed my monger, too. I had this secret love affair with my monger. After that conversation, I realized all the material I was sharing, it wasn't working. All the stuff I was talking about, it wasn't fixing the problem for me, and it wasn't going to one day magically, poof, make my monger disappear. So, that was when I decided to go on a quest and figure out how to solve this monger problem, how to really get to the root of why she was so belittling, shaming, and mean, and why I believed I needed that voice.

I give Jamie the credit for helping me get honest with myself so I could get to the root of this monger problem. It was through that conversation that I then wrote The Happier Approach. So, I wanted to bring Jamie back and just chat with her about her monger, and anxiety, and all the things that we talk about on this podcast.

You're listening to The Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Jamie and I gathered on my front porch. It was a beautiful fall day, and you'll hear the birds and the cars driving by because I just wanted kind of a chit-chat with my friend. Nothing with fancy microphones and no crazy intensive questions, just two friends gathering to talk about anxiety, mongers, rules, regulations, and all the things in between. I hope you will enjoy this conversation.

Nancy: So, how would you say your inner critic monger motivates you?

Jamie: I would say it's one of those like everybody's depending on you, you got to get this done. If you don't get it done, kids aren't going to have their uniform to wear for soccer. Or if you don't get it done, people are going to see the piles of dog hair in all the corners of the house and across all major surfaces of the house, floors. You better get it done because you'll look like a goofball if you don't.

Nancy: So, highly critical and motivating.

Jamie: I don't know about critical, like you're a dummy kind of, like you're so stupid kind of thing. I got somebody in there saying, "Dude, you're running out of time. Get it done." It's more of like you're going to look like a fool if you don't do whatever it is you need to do, or your kids are showing up without their teeth brushed, or whatever.

Nancy: Yeah, it's more, as we were talking about before, the people pleasing-vein than you are a terrible person, more what will they think.

Jamie: Yes, yes. Reflects poorly, and you look like an incompetent boob.

Nancy: I want to jump in here real quick and say I believe everyone has a monger. And it was through talking about The Happier Approach that I realized some of us have a monger who's like a demon. She is mean, relentless, and unforgiving. She is constantly telling us that we have to get it done or we will fail. Then, some of us, like Jamie, have a monger who was driving, and pushing, and critical, but more like a pushy teacher than a demon.

Jamie: I would never relax or pause if I couldn't sit down while there was stuff out because there's always stuff out. And it can stay out and I can stress myself out about getting it done, or I can sit down and watch a show with my family and the dishes will be there later. They're not going anywhere.

Jamie: But, Dave was telling me that ... He's like, "You are such an enigma," because we have the dishwasher that has the rack at the top where you can put all the silverware in all nice and neat. I save all the silverware till the end, because it drives me bananas because I have a very rigid way about how I put the silverware in the dishwasher, which Dave was like, "The counters are covered in clutter, and you're organizing the knives in the dishwasher." I was like, "Well, I hate it when I get them all organized and then somebody has a piece of toast, and there's one more knife, and I don't have room for it in the knife section."

Jamie: So, I'd rather let everything sit out, come to a final stopping point, and say, "Okay, it's the end of the day. No more knives are coming in and out." I can organize all the knives, soup spoons, big forks, little forks, teaspoons, and then coffee-type ... demitasse spoons at the end, big to little. "Dave was like, "I don't even know what to say."

Nancy: But, that brings you joy.

Jamie: Yes, I like seeing. He was like, "You can have dog hair everywhere and crap all over the counters, but all your knives are in the knife spot and all your forks in the fork spot." And I was like, "Yes, but that's how they get clean. If you just put them in willy-nilly, then when I pull them out, there's still peanut butter on some stuff. So, yeah.

Nancy: Would you say you have a lot of rules? Rigidities.

Jamie: If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. So if it sits in a pile on the dining room table for six months, I'm okay with that as long as it's not in my way. Because if I'm going to do a project, I want to do it right, and I don't want to do it half-ass. So, I'd rather it sit there if it's not something that's very pertinent. I'd rather it sit there and get done when I have the time to get it done. Now, saying when I have the time, that'll be when I'm 70.

Nancy: Right, right, right, right.

Jamie: But, I'm not just going to kind of just cram it into the cabinet and put it away just to have it out of sight because I still need to do it. Then, I know it's sitting in the cabinet in a disheveled mess, so I have to get it back out of the cabinet, put it back out on the dining room table even just to start. So, I'd rather just leave it there, now I need to do it. I see it. I know I need to do it. And I may not get to it for a couple of months, but that's okay. I'll get there. I just don't want to do it haphazardly and haven't done half-ass. So, I'd rather it sit around and-

Nancy: And if it's out of sight, it's out of mind?

Jamie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Dave's like a stuff it in the closet, get it out of sight, nothing to see here.

Nancy: Right. Yes.

Jamie: If people are coming over, yes, I lik the house to look nice and organized and stuff. But, I mean, if there's my makeup bag sitting out on the counter, people know I wear makeup. It's not a big deal. Just a makeup bag. But, Dave likes totally clear counters and ... So that's just ...

Nancy: What is the right way then? Who determines the right way in the sense of like-

Jamie: Whoever gets there first.

Nancy: But not between you and Dave, but in your brain.

Jamie: Oh. Oh.

Nancy: What makes it the right way? Is it order? Is it efficiency?

Jamie: I would say it's order, like laundry. Having all the laundry done would be like washed, folded, and put away. But, I can usually get to the wash, dried, in a basket, but that whole folding ... Which I love folding laundry. I find it very relaxing. I have a little board, and I put shirt out on the board and you flap the flaps and it folds it up into this perfect little square.

Jamie: Then, I totally Marie Kondoed. This is one of those things. Yes, there may be 27 dishes in my sink, but the shirts that I did wash, fold, and put away are very organized because they're in a file system versus stacked. They're flipped.

Nancy: Oh, okay.

Jamie: So, you can kind of dig through your shirts and see all the different colors and-

Nancy: Oh, wow.

Jamie: ... whatever you're doing. Right, crazy pants. If you were to walk in my house, you would not think that my drawers would look like that. But, that would be lovely to have the time to do that. But, I mean, I never have time to totally get everything folded, and so we're always looking for soccer uniforms in the clean laundry basket. It's always clean, but it's just not folded and put away.

Nancy: And until you can fold it with the board-

Jamie: Yeah, if I'm going to fold it's-

Nancy: It has to be with ...

Jamie: ... got to be with the board, and neat, and tidy. Otherwise, I'm just kind of wasting my time. Why fold it if it's not going to fit in the drawer where it's supposed to go?

Nancy: Right. Okay. Fascinating. Because the part I find fascinating is we all have those rules and rigidities. So when someone says, "Oh, you're a type A person ..." There are things you are type A about.

Jamie: Yes.

Nancy: Then there are things you are not type A about. I mean, the nickname for your family is the Must bombs because-

Jamie: Running in with our pants on fire, sliding into home with dirt all over our faces. We're here. We made it. Suitcase is very packed, nice and neat. Everything's rolled, and it fits, and it's all in there, but, whew, what a ride.

Nancy: I remember when Doug said to me ... Even recently, we had an ... Just this week we had an argument because we were watching TV show. I go to the bathroom and get a drink and come back and sit down, and I'm starting back up the TV show. Then, he gets up to get a snack. I'm like, "What are you doing?" He said, "Oh, I just decided I wanted a snack."

Jamie: We already had halftime.

Nancy: I was like, "That is inefficient. We had the break." And he said, "We're watching the TV show. Why do we need to be efficient in watching a TV show?" Which is an excellent point, and that is why I married him.

Jamie: That is true. That is true.

Nancy: I would've snapped at him big time years ago. But now I can be like, "What are you doing? You're being inefficient."

Jamie: What's happening now?

Nancy: Efficiency is one of my rigidities. Even in making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, it has to be efficient in the number of dishes I use and the movement.

Jamie: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Definitely efficient the number of dishes I use. And with efficiency, I am almost rabid about my efficiency with driving. I know the patterns of all the streetlights. If I'm driving north to get on the highway, I know that it's generally going to take longer to go one way when it's not rush hour, and it's going to take longer to go another way when it is rush hour, depending on times and stuff. But then, if there's no rush hour, I know two different ways to go depending on when I peek around the corner if one light is green, I know I need to go straight. Or if it's red, I know it's going to turn-

Nancy: Wow.

Jamie: ... before I get there, and so it's faster to go that way. Bananas. I was like that in law school, too. I have very specific recollections of how I would go to school because I knew if this light's green, I'm going to get the next red light, so I got to turn on the green light here to make sure I get the other green light.

Nancy: Wow.

Jamie: So, I do appreciate some efficiency.

Nancy: That's impressive. Because that's what I always laugh. Mom and I will constantly be like ... Or Dad. My dad was especially bad about this. If you got stuck in traffic and then you figured out a different way, and then you would get your destination and you'd be like, "We did it the right way." Then, Doug ruined it by saying, "How do you know? How do you know this was the right way because you just ended up at the destination the same as you would've a variety of other ways?" I was like, "No, we did it the right way because it was the way we ... It was the way we went."

Jamie: It was what we chose, so it was right.

Nancy: Other than efficiency, are there other rigidities and the order?

Jamie: My side of the bedroom is a bit of a fiasco, but I also have two dogs on my side of the bedroom just for a little credit. But, Dave is like, "What is happening over there?" I was like, "Well, I got to get the sheets folded and put them in the little under the bed zippy thing. And if they're not folded right, they're not going to fit, so I got to make sure I get them folded right to get them into the underbed Zippy thing. There's a recipe in that magazine that I know I want. I may have forgotten which recipe it was, but I know there was a good one in there. I got to rip that recipe out, take a picture of it so I have it in my phone."

Jamie: He's just like, "Just throw it away. Put it in the recycle bin. Move on. Move on with your life. Clear the clutter out of your life." That's where I get kind of bogged down. I know I need to do something with that, so I'm going to hold onto it.

Nancy: Because you have a system for what you need to do with it. It's just having the time to invoke the system.

Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nancy: Okay.

Jamie: Which I'll never have the time to invoke the system.

Nancy: Right, right, right.

Jamie: But, I try. I try.

Nancy: Yeah. No, I appreciate the endless hope.

Jamie: Hope springs eternal.

Nancy: I know anxiety is something that you struggle with. How would you say the monger plays into that or these rigidities even?

Jamie: At the beginning of my trip down anxiety lane was mainly end of law school, beginning of work. It was you have to take bar exam to practice, because I practiced on a state border, so I needed both bar exams. I remember after I took the bar exam in the first state where I practiced, after the bar exam, I was just like, "That was terrible. I know I flunked. I got to go through all of that again." I couldn't talk for a day.

Jamie: My dad had driven me from where we took the bar exam in mid-Missouri to where I grew up in Kansas city. I think I just stared out the window and just kind of cried and whimpered on the way home. My dad was like, "It's fine." I'm like, "It's not fine. I'm going to have to do it again."

Jamie: I still remember where we pulled up in the driveway and my dad just kind of waved at my mom, just gave her the cutthroat sign like, "Don't even engage. Just let her go whimper in her corner and lick her wounds, and maybe she'll come out tomorrow better." There's no way I passed that stupid test. I'm going to have to take it again, and I'm going to have to go through all that misery of studying for it again.

Jamie: I kind of got a hybrid answer. I got you pass the bar exam for the state of Missouri. Then, if you want to take an exam in another state, if you score high enough on the multiple choice part of the test, you can just carry that part over. But, I didn't get high enough on the multiple choice part to carry it over for the neighboring state, and so I had to do the whole thing again to take the neighboring state.

Jamie: So I did pass, but I didn't pass high. I kind of passed low because I didn't get to carry over my multiple choice score when I took Illinois. So then, it was, okay, I was smart enough to pass, but I have this nice job at a nice law firm. They're going to suss me out at some point and fire me because there's no way I should have this job. I got this job because my dad knew somebody, and I interviewed well, and my grades were pretty good, and I passed the bar, so I'm qualified. But, when's the other shoe going to drop and they're going to figure me out? So, that's like where the monger comes in like, "Hey, walking into work today. Didn't get fired yesterday. Woo! Coming back again. Let's see what happens today."

Jamie: So, that's that monger and that string of anxiety. And then now, since I'm not practicing, it's all with the kids. Kids get their homework done? Did they play the piano? Did they go to soccer practice? Are they doing well in school? Did I sign them up for the right things? If I don't sign them up for the right things, are they not going to improve with piano, improve with soccer, improve with basketball, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?

Nancy: This is so common. Our mongers convince us we're a fraud and we're going to get found out. And her message is we need to keep hustling, pushing, and striving. Then, hopefully, one day we will be accepted. But in reality, she keeps changing the goalpost, just as she did with Jamie. Once she stopped practicing law, her monger came in to tell her the same message of never enough in regard to parenting. Your monger's message will just shift and change with you until you decide to get her under control and bring in your biggest fan.

Jamie: And that was where I kind of gotten out of the legal job stress and then kind of moved it to a different kind of holy crap. It's not me getting fired. It's my kids getting behind or not having the right opportunities or whatever. I mean, we live in lala land. They have plenty of opportunities.

Nancy: I want to step in here and talk about privilege, which Jamie alludes to. Jamie is right. She and I do live in lala land with the amount of privilege we have. And that is one of our monger's favorite way of shaming us and keeping us stuck. Our monger will tell us we need to be grateful, that we can't complain, that we're being whiny and privileged. And that message isn't helping anyone.

Nancy: Being privileged is a different issue. If you're privileged, then you need to own that and use it. Use it to bring awareness to less privileged voices, use it to give to organizations that help fight the disparity in our world. But, beating yourself up, shaming yourself for worrying about privileged things, well, that doesn't help those who are starving or suffering finding food, shelter, and employment. It just makes you feel paralyzed by shame. Privileged is something you need to own. It isn't something you need to shame yourself about.

Jamie: I think if I don't do one more thing or get them enrolled in a certain thing, then they're going to fall behind and not be as good as they could be. Or they could've been great at this, but I dropped the ball and didn't sign them up or didn't register them in time, and then it's my fault, but-

Nancy: Before we hit record, you were saying that the relationship with your monger ... You weren't quite as strong as your statement that you made to me at the wine bar now as you felt then.

Jamie: Yes.

Nancy: What has changed?

Jamie: It was one of those things where I was like, "Dude, if I don't have my monger, I'm not studying for the bar. I'm not trying to find a job." Or she is back there saying, "Get it done. Do it." And otherwise, it's a heck of a lot easier to sit down and watch Jeopardy. But, I guess it's ...

Jamie: One of my good friends has said, "We don't live in a show house. You can't expect yourself to live in a show house." Then, Dave will say, "But we can't live in a pigsty either." So, it's just trying to navigate that balance, which you're always walking that tightrope of, "We could vacuum. Let's get that done," versus ...

Jamie: Before, it was working with the kids on pitching because they were going to be pitching for a season in baseball. I watched YouTube videos, and then I was out in the driveway working with them. Yes, I could be inside folding clothes, vacuuming, doing whatever project I left on the northeast corner of the dining room table that I know I need to get to, or I can teach them how to throw a pitch. And I'd rather them know how to throw a pitch than get to whatever project that's been sitting on the dining room table forever. But, that's the battle is, but, yes, I do need to go inside and take care of some things. So, it's just that constant which way am I going to land on the tightrope.

Nancy: I think initially when I started this work, I wanted her to be gone. But, it's recognizing that she is always going to be there. And that's why I love the model of the biggest fan because the biggest fan is just the monger with kind words.

Jamie: Yes. And that is a much more content way to go about things is having a, "All right, you got to get it done. How about we turn on some music while you do it," or something or have the kids help.

Nancy: Yeah, because I think about ... Because I was going to say when you were talking about the baseball, that really is about what do I value, and I value my kids knowing how to play baseball. I value me spending time with them. I value this is making a memory more so than I value that the project on the northeast corner of the dining room table is done. And I can't do that all the time. I also am not going to be the mom who's going to be constantly out here playing with my kids to the detriment of-

Jamie: Right, right.

Nancy: The rules and rigidities will constantly fascinate me because I think they are just fascinating.

Jamie: Yes. We humans are an interesting breed.

Nancy: I love how Jamie talks about being human and brings her own sense of humor to the many rules are rigidities we have in dealing with our anxiety. We all tend to take ourselves a little too seriously. So anytime we can bring humor and some kindness to our lives, we are better off.

Nancy: I will say, even after all this time, my monger has not, poof, disappeared, but she has lost her hold on me. Bringing her and her shaming ways out into the open has made a huge difference. And living the principles I talk about in The Happier Approach allows me to keep her in check.

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Episode 156: What Is Happy?

In this episode, I decided to ask some of the people in my life—my mom, my second mom, my nephews, and my friend Andrew, who is a philosophy professor at Otterbein University—what they think about happiness.

What is happy? 

This is a loaded question—but it’s something I want to explore in this episode because happiness is the #1 thing my clients say they want. But how do we get to happiness? What is the path there?

Lately, I’ve been on a quest to go deeper. To ask questions. To get clear. 

In episode 153, I explored how asking and studying into a question helps you to really get to the heart of the issue. 

What does happiness look like? 

What does happiness feel like? 

How will we know when we’ve reached happiness? 

For this episode, I decided to ask some of the people in my life—my mom, my second mom, my nephews, and my friend Andrew, who is a philosophy professor at Otterbein University—what they think about happiness and you’ll hear their ideas throughout the show. 

As you’re listening to this episode, I challenge you to ask yourself: what is happy for you? 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How happiness is fleeting and is a feeling we have, just like sadness and anger. It isn’t a state of constant being

• How to give ourselves grace and relieve ourselves of the pressure that we should be happy all the time—and if we aren’t happy, there must be something wrong with us

• Examples of what makes people happy from reading in peace, creating something, and spending time with family

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: What is happy. This is a topic I want to explore because the number one thing my clients say, they want more happiness. Don't we all. And lately I've been a bit on this quest to go deeper. As I alluded to a couple of weeks ago, I want to start asking the question under the question. And so in this episode, we're diving deeper into the question.

What is happy? What does it look like? How do you know when you're experiencing it? You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. I began my journey, figuring out what is happy by asking my family, what did they consider happy to be?

And I didn't give them much notice. I just came down to my mom's house for a socially distanced family gathering and said, Hey, what do you think happy is? And recorded their answers. And their answers were fascinating to me, the variety, and yet the similarities I'll be sprinkling. Those answers throughout the show.

And as you're listening, I challenge you to ask yourself what is happy for you? First let's hear from my nephew, Aaron, as he talks about gratitude.

Nancy: Tell me Aaron, how would you define happy? What is happy to you?

Aaron: I try and be a grateful person. I think when I'm grateful for things that I do every day. Stop to think about a moment that I appreciated. It makes me happier.

Nancy: My nephew and I have talked about his gratitude practice in the past. He's in his early twenties and he's in nursing school and he learned about it in one of his classes. They encouraged him to set an alarm on his phone and every day to practice naming the things he's grateful for that day.

And I love how he shares how his gratitude practice has changed over time.

Aaron: I do gratitude every day at 10:00 PM. I started with the big things, thankful for family and healthy and happiness. And now I just do things that happen during the day. So just three small things that could have happened during the day that I go back into.

Nancy: And so since practicing that, would you say you're happier? I definitely would say so. Yeah. I've been doing it for about two years now. So at first it was focusing in at 10. And think about your gratitude. But now when I go around just living my normal life, I can appreciate things as I go. Just makes you think more about being grateful for little, the moments.

Nancy: Of course, I couldn't do an episode on what is happy without researching happiness. And so I typed in what is happy into Google and upped popped an article from the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy. All about happiness, which immediately led me to my friend, Andrew Mills, who is a philosophy professor at a local university here in Columbus.

Andrew. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Andrew: Sure. I am a philosophy professor at Otterbein university, which is located in Westerville, Ohio, a suburb of Columbus. I've been teaching there for about 21, 22 years, and I teach undergraduate classes on the history of philosophy, introduction to philosophy, environmental philosophy classes.

A general education class I teach cause it's called happiness and the good life. And that's a course where we serve, they different approaches to happiness and the good life going all the way back to the ancient Greeks. People like Socrates, but up to the modern day people like Martin Luther king and contemporary folks who were working.

Yeah. Living simply environmental approaches as well

Nancy: . So what is happy when you're looking at it from a philosophy standpoint?

Andrew: that's a great question. One question, so that I think about a lot is the distinction between a happy life and a good life. I think a lot of the philosophical literature going all the way back to people like Socrates thought about.

Not so much the psychological state of being happy of feeling. Moment to moment, but about whether one's life is going well. And so is one leading a good life. And a lot of philosophers would try to define what the conditions are for leading a good life. Does a good life require that.

Engage in one's community and be politically active and seek to make the world a better place. Is that what a good life is? Even if doing that might involve long stretches of stress and worry and agitation and states that we might not think of happy because it's hard work. So people like civil, activists might think that they're engaged in the good fight or religious lives. Monastic lives of devotion to God might be seen as good lives, but don't involve the sort of pleasures that many of us think a part of living happily. So I spent a lot of time trying to tease that apart and the other side.

What we think of as being like states of psychological happiness of just what a good feeling might accompany lives that we think are from a, I dunno, moral point of view, pretty miserable, right? Because you're acting in rapacious, evil, horrible ways in order to surround yourself with luxuries and fancy food and find wine and all the rest of it.

So that's one thing I try to do is tease apart that psychological state feeling well from living a good life. Not that the two can't go together.

Nancy: So as I was talking with Andrew, I had this aha around. Wow. So many of us, when we think about happiness or what is happy or achieving happy. So often we think about this feeling of permanent happiness that I will achieve a state of happy or a common refrain.

I hear my clients talk about a lot is and myself as well. I should be happy. What's wrong with me. I should be happy as if it is a permanent space. That we can achieve. And what was so fascinating in this conversation with Andrew was pulling apart those two concepts of happy as a psychological state and a good life.

And what does that mean? Having a good life? So

Andrew: that's another way you could think about happiness in this hedonistic. He don't, ya are just the Greek word for pleasure. So the momentary pleasures, and you might think are you happy right now? No, I just stubbed my toe. I just dropped a brick on my foot.

Of course I'm in lots of pain. Which is the opposite of happiness. But then. People say let's pull back. Don't just think about this immediate second where you're suffering pain, but look at your life. How's it going this week or this month or this year? How's your life been altogether? And you think less about the stub toes and more.

Do I have a relative balance of pleasure over pain as my life been mostly pleasant with, moments of grief or sorrow or sadness. And so sometimes people, when they think about happy. Encourage us to think more broadly, not about today, but about this year or this period of my life. The hedonism is a really interesting view.

I was just teaching this last week that the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus we got our term Epicurean. He was an advocate. Hedonism. He sought the good life is a life filled with pleasure, the best life, not just psychologically best, but like morally best. The best way to live your life is to feel it with as much pleasure as possible.

But he understood pleasure in this really interesting way. He didn't understand pleasure as the states of excitation. It wasn't orgasms and massages and what it's like to have the best chocolate cake you've ever had. Every philosopher who teaches hedonism has to spend like 10 minutes. Saying, here's what you understand by hedonism because you're a person who lives in the 21st century and here's how philosophers understand hedonism.

And I use this, I found this there's some resort in the Caribbean. Maybe that's called hedonism too. And it's like clothes optional, like very, sybaritic kind of. Party resort place. And I just offer this up and say this is not what philosophers mean by hedonism for Epicurus. The state of pleasure was a state of, he called it Arthur Roxy was the Greek term contentment and not being troubled.

And so for him, pain is a deficit you're hungry or you're too cold or you're thirsty, or your leg hurts. And so pleasure is a state of. Suffering any of that stuff. So how do you get pleasure? Look around what pains do you have? What hungers or thirsts or aches or mental worries or agitation or stress or anxiety.

And then pleasure is a state of that. And can you get to the state where you're not hungry? You're not thirsty, you're not cold. You're not worried. You're not agitated. And then, and so it's not, if you're hungry, what you need is food. You don't need expensive food, you just need grass. And if you're thirsty, you just, a glass of water is fine.

You don't need to find the fanciest bottle of wine and you just need some water. And so for him, that opened up a whole avenue to saying the good life is actually the pretty simple life. You just need a few things to be in that state of contentment. You need shelter and you need friends and you need food, but you don't need fancy.

And in fact, the struggle for fancy causes all kinds of stress because we've got to work really hard to afford all the fancy stuff and to pay for the new house and the yacht and the bottles of wine. And so in the end of the day, it's not worth the price. So it was interesting, like he's thought about pleasure psychologically, opened up a kind of view about here's what the good life is.

Exactly. You don't need that much to live in a state of contentment or what you need is pretty easy to access for most people. But nowadays of course, we have this term Epicurean and there's like magazines have that term and that, or there's a person I described as a real Epicurean and it's a misunderstanding or just a different understanding of Epicurus his own view.

It's not fancy. It's not high end. It's not. Lobster Thermidor, if you are satisfied with the, not just the bare necessities, but the sort of simple, the simple life. Yeah. And, there's all kinds of social benefits to the ad, right? We're not all fighting with each other to get the fancy stuff and trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Life gets a little easier maybe if, from that point of view, if you're that kind of hedonism is hard. If what you want is excitement and, I dunno, orgasmic kind of all the time, like the thrill seeking, understanding of happiness, like that's hard because there aren't enough roller coasters in the world.

To help you get to that next thrill.

Nancy: So of course, this got me thinking about my own model and the ideas I have around the characters in our head and the monger and the BFF and the biggest fan and how for many people that I work with and myself included was the struggle of the lack of drama that comes when you are listening to the biggest.

That lack of excitement that Andrew is talking about. That biggest fan voice is the voice of simple living of looking back and seeing the good life. And we have been sold this idea that it needs to be dramatic and fun and exciting. And that idea that happy will get us there. And that is the lie.

The myth that our monger comes in to say, you should be happy. What's your purpose? And the BFF brings in that hedonistic, our traditional sense of what we think hedonism is that's the voice of the BFF. And it is so much more exciting to live in that place. It's also so much more painful, so much more exhausting, so much more drama filled and so much more conflict filled.

And when we can find that ease and that place of the biggest fan, we can find that simple life that Epicurus is talking. What also struck me about Epicurus is our tendency, as humans is to simplify everything down Epicurus means avoid pain and find simple pleasures. So looking at that, we tend to simplify everything down, but in reality, it's so much deeper than that.

It's so much more nuanced. And so we can find that richness in the nuance of it. After I hung up the conversation with Andrew, I was thinking about grief and how that is the ultimate thing that all of us have to go through the death of a loved one, and that can hurt our happiness because we're in grief.

And so I was curious on how Epicurus dealt with that. Andrew had suggested that I look up some of Epicureans teachings. And so I of course, went into Google again. And in his bat, a can saying number 66, he talks about let us show feeling for our friends who have died, not by lamenting, but by reflection, grieving that engages with our memories of the deceased in a positive way, can lead us to a greater appreciation of how they enriched our lives and the lives of others.

Such positively focused reflection. Albeit inevitably tinge with sadness should help us remember them with pleasure. It may even help us discover in ourselves a more mature attitude towards the inevitability of death. This is surely a positive, not a negative experience. What struck me about that is a, Epicurus believed that we're all going to die.

It's inevitable, nothing you can do about it. So you might as well accepted. And they also had the idea that if you're grieving one way to deal with that grief and to accept it is to be thinking of the memories of the person that you love and talk about them and keep them alive with their memories.

Which brings me to my next definition of what is happy by my dear friend and who I call my second mother? Yeah.

What is happy to you, Norma?

Norma: Happy to me. He is when the people around me that I love my family, my extended family, when everything is good with them, when they're achieving or they're not, but we're all sticking together and sharing it makes me happy.

It's what I need in my life. To have people that I love that much. And then I know they love me that much.

Nancy: And is this something that you experienced in memories of connecting with them or does it have to be face-to-face happening?

Norma: No, it's since the moment I knew them or even before I knew them because they weren't born yet.

It's just remembering and having those memories that I can tune into now at this age in particular, I'm doing a lot of sitting by myself and I can sit and think about all the fun times and everything. And it makes me happy.

Nancy: And as you can hear at the end and of that conversation, she was getting a phone call from one of those people that are so near and dear to her heart.

And I love the idea of Epicurus because as I said before, it reminds me so much of the biggest fan. And to me, it is the biggest fan. And yet, if there's anything this past year has taught me, it is the power of privilege and how it can keep us warped in happy. And how it's that definition of.

Happiness and simple pleasures isn't available to everyone. And so I asked Andrew about that and we got into this idea of what's. What else is there in the philosophy world that addresses those ideas of social justice?

Andrew: It's interesting. I was talking about that with my students. Cause he, again, he was, he didn't think a lot about justice, but he did think that for one, there's a reason, self interestedly for you to be just because the, if you don't commit crimes, his thought was, you're not afraid of being caught.

And so you're not wrapped with guilt of being apprehended, but of course, we live in a world where people get killed. Or are accused of doing things because of the way they look or because of their social position, that they didn't do anything, but they're apprehended by the police. And so they're people who live in all kinds of fear for their lives and they can't get away from that fear if simply by not doing the crimes because they're right.

You look this way and so the police bring you in. And so it was interesting that if you think that's happening in the world, Which I think it is, then you've got a motivation to maybe fix the world to enable all those people to live without fear. If we can get rid of the injustices in the world that will allow other people to, live without the constant fear of their oppression or getting arrested for something they didn't do or being attacked by folks.

So the social justice piece is hard for someone like Epicurus. Yeah. Philosopher John Stuart mill. He was this Victorian English philosopher. He also built was a hedonist in different sense from Epicurus, but he was a big social justice campaigner. And his thought was our goal in life is to produce as much pleasure as possible, not just for ourselves.

For everyone, right? Let's make society full of people who are happy. And so that you can see if that's your goal that motivates social justice. Let's make life better for people. And whether that's welfare state stuff, whether that's correcting unjust political systems, whether that's dealing with them.

Poverty, let's do things to make the lives of people as pleasant as possible. Not just egoistically, I'm going to get as much pleasure for me. If I can. Some of the social justice folks have that motivation, there's people suffering and let's fix the world. So those people don't have so much pain in their lives anymore.

Nancy: So the idea that happiness is not only about the simple pleasures and the good life and looking at your life from a whole. But it's also about getting out of your own selfishness and seeing the world through other people's eyes and seeing what is happening for other people and how can we all be achieving happiness together.

And I think that is such a great way of thinking about it. That gets us out of our own process, which is so often what happens in psychology and especially so often for those of us with anxiety, we really get stuck in our own heads and in our own processes. And so being able to think about, yeah, What is happy for other people and how can I help them achieve that level of happiness and myself?

How can I level the playing field so that we all are looking at this good life and able to achieve the good life, whatever that means for each of us individually. And so now I'm going to share what my mom said in her definition of what is happy.

What is happy to you, mom?

Jane: having my family come. Any reason, but to celebrate today, we had a get together and it was a great time of sharing around the dining room table.

It's also happy to me that I can be here in my own home and sit on my breezeway and read in peace and quiet.

I appreciate how my mom brought in two things that make her happy or the, her definition of happy. And I think this fits for a lot of us, it's obviously more than just one thing, but the idea of having connection and family and gathering together, and then the idea of having alone time and having space to, to read and do the things that bring us joy in our own brains in our own time.

And I think being able to be able to tap in and tap out of togetherness and being alone and togetherness and being alone. I think for a lot of us, that is a true essence of happy. It's a much more complicated answer than just one thing. This is what happened. And there are definitely times I'm sure for my mom that when she's sitting outside in her beautiful home, she wishes she was someplace else or she wishes she was doing other things.

That's what I loved about Epicurus as Andrew was talking about him was the idea that it's looking across your whole life. It's looking at what is the good life overall for me? How can I achieve that level of happy? When I look back on my life and I see my life as well. And how can I manage the times where it's tough and hard and I'm struggling, as Andrew said, I stubbed my toe or I've, just really my anxiety is through the roof.

How can I manage these times in an appropriate, positive, helpful way, and give myself that grace and kindness that will get me through this. Okay. So here's my last interview with my nephew Parker. Who's in his mid twenties on what his definition of happy is.

Parker: I'd say my, definition of happy kind as a two-prong I find it in two areas of my life, I'd say, and what I'm creating and making something just active.

Generating something from my myself and getting to know myself more. So the self-actualization of sorts as well as from connection with other people, is really the theme is connection in a lot of ways. And I feel connected to myself or to others. That's happiness to me. You're right where you need to be.

Nancy: So how often do you experience that? It's something we say we want, but it's not a state we can keep.

Parker: Yeah. I think that I experienced. I guess rarely it's not a sustained state. I can picture the moments when I'm happy, but typically these moments are fleeting or I never realized that I'm happy in that moment.

It's right afterwards. I'm like, I'm happy. And then you just settle with it and you're calm.

Nancy: And so Parker reminds us that it isn't a permanent state, but it isn't something you can achieve and you have figured out how to be happy. It's something we will continually be striving for and looking for, unless you go back and look at the big picture of you as a Paris talks about and what is a good life.

And then we can take a deeper look at that, covering what John Stuart mill says, how I can help other people achieve that as well. So getting out of our own way, I hope that in this episode, you got to think about happy in a different, more nuanced way. When I talk with my family, they had common answers, what struck me the most about it was the simplicity to bring it back to Epicurus the simple pleasures.

And when I think about the answers my family had, they were relatively simple answers. And I think we have two beliefs about happy that we know are wrong, but we insist on believing or at least our Mongo convinces us. We should keep believing. One that is a permanent state of being and two, that it is something complex and out of reach as if we really have to struggle to find that.

Our Monger keeps those beliefs alive. She encourages us to keep pushing because once we achieve, she tells us we'll be happy. And then our BFF steps in to tell us we can only achieve happiness through hedonism, the typical traditional sense of hedonism, like going to hedonism to, for example, when in reality, the real happy comes in that drama free nuanced form of our biggest fan, the place that says, Hey, sweet pea. How you doing today? That's where real happiness lies. So we will continue the quest. We will continue the conversation on what is happy. And I'd love to hear from you. Let me know how you would answer that question. What is happy to you?

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Episode 155: Experimenting with Meditation and Mindfulness - Part 1

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Sean McMullin, the producer of this podcast, to talk about experimenting with meditation and mindfulness. 

To hear how the experiment went: Listen to Part 2

I don’t have a meditation practice of my own. 

In fact, I’m pretty resistant to it. I have a lot of rules around meditation and I’m pretty rigid in how I think about it. 

But, with all the stress in the world recently and my own anxiety, I thought it might be helpful to revisit meditation. 

Meditation, after all, puts our anxiety front and center. It encourages us to make space for it so that we can soften our feelings of anxiousness and stress. Maybe it could help? 

That’s why I decided that doing an experiment would be a lighthearted and fun way to reintroduce meditation back into my life. Plus, it would be a space for play and exploration rather than rules. 

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Sean McMullin of Yellow House Media, who is the producer of this podcast, to talk about experimenting with meditation and mindfulness. 

Sean’s been practicing meditation for nine months at the time of recording and is light years ahead of me—and he also understands my blocks and resistance to meditation.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The moment when Nancy realized that she needed to start adding meditation into her morning routine

• Sean’s experience with daily meditation plus how long his meditations were when he first started and how long they are today

• Nancy and Sean explore the reasons behind why people meditate, why they don’t, and common expectations (like meditation is going to make everything easier in life)

• How people with high functioning anxiety might struggle with establishing a daily meditation habit and what to do about it

Resources mentioned:

• Headspace Meditation App

• The Real Point of Meditating by Mike Sturm on Medium

• The Science of Mindfulness | Dr. Ron Siegel | Talks at Google

• The Art of Noticing by Rob Walker

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: If you've listened to me for awhile, I do not have a meditation practice of my own, but recently with all the stress in the world and my own anxiety, I thought it might be helpful to revisit meditation. Not surprisingly. I have a lot of rules around meditation and I'm pretty rigid in my thinking about it, which is why.

Maybe doing an experiment would be a good way to reintroduce meditation into my life. I wanted to talk to an expert in meditation and fortunately the producer of this podcast, Sean McMillan has been practicing meditation for nine months. He would not call himself an expert, but he is light years ahead of me and is also someone who really understands my blocks and resistance to meditation.

So following is our very casual conversation around meditation and how I'm approaching this meditation experiment. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

So today I'm reversing the roles here and I'm bringing on my friend, Sean, who also happens to be the producer of the happier approach who is going to be talking me through this new thing. I'm working on this meditation experiment. Hey, Sean, tell the audience a little bit about yourself.

Sean: Hello audience.

You've asked me on because we've decided to do, you've decided to do an experiment, a meditation experiment, and we're going to talk about it because I have a daily meditation practice. And I'm curious why you don't, because I feel pretty strongly about meditation and

Nancy: People that do it, do feel very strongly about it, why I'm interested in doing the experiment, but I have also been very anti, not anti meditation because I know for those that do it, it's very powerful.

I've not been able to start my own practice. And so I've been anti it for myself even this morning, as I was doing my morning routine. And right now, as we're recording this, we're in the crazy pre-election time. And Trump is hospitalized with COVID and there's a lot going on, but that doesn't mean I need to be obsessive early.

I'm checking Twitter at seven o'clock in the morning. While I'm making my coffee, just to see if there's any news updates. And I noticed this morning, I couldn't put it right. Like I couldn't put my phone down. I was checking email. I was checking Twitter and I was like, this is why you need to be doing a meditation or mindfulness practice.

I don't have any time where I just have space in my brain to be. And I'm hoping that the meditation practice can help me do that. And meditation is like that. If I could only practice meditation, then yeah, I will be totally fine. As if that's the one thing I need to do and then everything will be okay.

And so I want to. To demystify that. Cause I don't really believe that. And so that's why I wanted to talk to you. Cause I know you have meditation practice and you are open to discussing that and walking through what it has done for you and why it's a powerful practice.

Sean: Do you want me to tell why I've only been meditating daily. I'm going to guess nine months. Okay. Long time. And then additionally, like I, I have my meditation app and it tells me what my. Streak is and for good and for bad, I'm not a completionist.

So if I miss a day, which I don't feel bad about myself and I

Nancy: You don't have high functioning anxiety.

Sean: No, I do not. I have anxiety, but I don't have high functioning anxiety. That's a hundred percent for starters. I a hundred percent, except that I am a meditation novice. And that everything that I say is based upon my own experience and that there is always the very exciting reality that there is so much to learn and that I'm just a child when it comes to these things.

Nancy: But that's why I wanted to have you on, because I think many of my listeners. Our pre-child to this. And so to them, you are, and to me, you are an expert because you've been doing it for nine months, inconsistently, perhaps, but still longer than I've ever been able to manage.

Sean: I have, I have attempted it many times over my life.

And when I lived out in Oregon, there was at a Buddhist monastery near us and they had every Sunday they'd have like open house and you'd go and you could meditate with them. And I did that. I did it a few times. And that was really interesting. It was interesting. They did a lot of moving meditation where they actually walked there was like this, there was a space that they walked.

Yeah. There was some chanting involved too, but it never really stuck. What happened was about turn of the year, last year. I a few things happened this coming up in November, I'm three years sober and yeah. Big deal. And so that process of becoming so. And has given me space to become more mindful of who I am, what I do.

I now approach life with way more intention. I don't feel quite so I just have way more space and it's wonderful. There were a lot of things that sort of became revealed to me that I think that I could ignore because I was just intoxicated, like my level of anxiety on a daily basis. And so then about nine, 10 months ago, I had, I started having panic attacks and anxiety is so irrational.

I was like, I need to do something about this. I need to get serious about this. Backed off coffee, that kind of thing. I got on medication, but I also started my meditation practice. And when I first started, I'm not even joking. It was three times a day. I was meditating.

Nancy: Wow. How long would each time be?

Sean: When I first started, it was like 10 minutes. Wow. That sounded like now my daily is 20, which is great. Okay. And then I'm actually going to like, try to increase it to the 45 minutes to an hour, but not on a daily basis because one of the, one of the things that I ran into and I would imagine a lot of people listening run into is this idea that there's a right way and a wrong way to do it.

And that you have to go all in and you have to. Become a meditator.

Nancy: You're speaking my language. That is exactly what I feel.

Sean: But the truth is that, I would imagine that there are benefits from doing, there's a scientifically proven that at a certain period of time, that's the most beneficial make the time. And, but even if you just stop and take 10 deep breaths, Even that is a big deal that in of itself when you stop and you say to yourself, into your mind, just quit for a second.

And yeah, so that's how I started. And it was a really big deal for me because like I said, I was in just like breakdown, panic mode. And when I started out my back was really hurting. And so I would lay down. And I'd meditate laying down, which is still one, which is still one of my favorite ways to meditate.

And although I don't do it very often because I tend to fall asleep. I started using the app Headspace and it's, they've been really great. And they add a particular module on anxiety where they, they talk about anxiety and what it isn't. How to approach it. And I did that for their sessions that they had for those, I think, I can't remember how many they were and then it just, I don't know if it was like that or a combination of other things, but like having made the decision to start meditating, I started seeing everything just become more manageable and I started looking forward.

To meditation every day where it gave me something to look forward to where I knew had solemn. It's just so nice to be able to have a time of the day, whether you don't have anything to do, except for what you're just sitting there. And imagine people with high functioning, what am I talking about?

I know people with high functioning anxiety. Really find that challenging

Nancy: because I'm like, that sounds like hell to me.

Sean: So regardless of whether or not you have high functioning anxiety or not modern society tells us that we are constantly have to be doing something going on.

Exactly. And that if we sit and do nothing, we are lazy. We are worthless. We are, our life does not have purpose action has to be happening, but I also think the way a lot of people approach meditation, they bring that baggage. With them to their meditation practice, where this has to be productive. This has to produce results.

This has to be quantifiable. You know what I'm saying?

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I totally know what you're saying. Yeah. I know what you're saying. So that was why. You've heard this story before, but I went to a training on meditation by Ron Siegel. And we're going to put the video, not of my training, but of a training he did at Google in the show notes.

It was a full day training and I was dreading it, cause I have this thing about meditation and we did the meditation. I think it was 10 minutes. And he was like, if you didn't experience this as puppy. Like puppies that you were trying to gather in then you weren't doing it because that your thoughts are like puppies that are constantly rambling and that's how it should be.

It should be uncomfortable. It should be, like you're constantly trying to wrangle as you're new at this. And he went on to say the Jon Kabat Zinn, who did great things by bringing meditation into the. Medical community and really did some studies around it, but he sold it as a stress reliever.

And he said, meditation is not, that's not the end goal to relieve stress. The end goal is to separate out you from your thoughts. So to recognize that there are these things happening all the time, and to put some space between you and them. Is the goal. And I can remember at the time that really resonating with me of, oh, that's doable.

That is an end goal that I can see. I remember years ago I downloaded Deepak Chopra, did a series, meditate every day for 30 days. I think he might still do it. And. Maybe 10 minutes. And I don't think I got through any of them for 10 minutes. It was too intense, too long. I can remember looking up after a minute, after two minutes after five minutes with so much anxiety around, am I doing this right?

Is this going okay? Am I, I start relieving my stress. And my experience with meditation. That sounds stressful. Yes. And that was years ago that I took that class. It's taken me this long to recognize, okay. I want to go into this experiment being loose, as loose as I can about. My expectations and what the rules are and what this has to be like.

Even as we sat down to start this conversation, I said to Sean, okay I just read that it's 45 minutes is what the studies have shown that really gives you the best results. So I should do it for 45 minutes every day. Okay. And that is like an impossible. I just said I can barely do it for 10. And now suddenly I'm going to be able to do it for 45.

Come on, welcome to my brain. So what's the difference in your mind between meditation and mindfulness?

Sean: Ugh. I don't know. I've been thinking about this though. Like we can talk through this because I think that meditation. Is one tool for developing mindfulness. I would agree. That's meditation.

Isn't mindfulness and vice versa.

Nancy: Is that what you're saying?

Sean: I just don't think that there's the same thing. And I think that there are many ways to obtain greater levels of mindfulness. And I think that meditation is one. Tool that you can use to work towards that. And I'd love to hear actually, when we're go ahead.

Nancy: So mindfulness is the larger umbrella and meditation is one avenue to mindfulness.

Sean: Okay. Like I, I love the metaphor of a toolbox. If you have your mindfulness toolbox, we have okay, now we have a few of them. There's walking your dog. There's, I'm looking for the color blue. There's smiling to people.

When you walk down the streets, there's things that are bringing you into. Where you're being more mindful of your act of your actions. And I would say that meant that meditation and even meditation, the probably has different skillsets and different modes underneath it. There are different ways to meditate.

And I would say that those are another set of tools within your toolbox of a greater mindfulness. Does that, do you agree with that?

Nancy: I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that

Sean: . So mindful, right. Meditation being a tool for developing mindfulness. I liked the eye and I like that mindfulness becomes an expands out into the rest of my life.

And that I would say that for starters, I've been pursuing mindfulness in some way or another for most of my life. But when I intentionally make time and space for it, because I'm looking forward to it, I would say that it does expand out into the rest of my life. And I've learned how to identify that.

Why am I rushing from place to place in my head? I'm like, just slow down, just do a little stretch real fast.

Nancy: Why this is coming up for me now, because I was better about mindful. Before COVID when I was out in the world and would have those moments of recognizing just slow down, like I be in the car and I would just be in the car and looking at the clouds, as much as you can safety wise, or if I notice myself rushing from thing to thing, I would do that.

But in the house, Not having that separation between work and personal life and having everything be all muddled. I have less and less of that. And I think that's a reason this is coming up for me more. I need some space in my brain that I've don't have because everything is so muddled together right now.

Sean: So how are you planning on approaching. This experiment

Nancy: years ago when I was practicing I had to get all the accoutrement to do the meditation. So I was thinking today in preparation for this conversation. So I was going to set up a meditation corner and I had that cushion and then the little back support thing.

So I was like, oh, I should get that all set up. So I walked the dog every morning and that is like my. My favorite time of the day. Like I absolutely love it. And it used to be that I guarded it, no podcasts, no listening to music. It was just me and the dog. And then lately I don't have time to listen to podcasts because I'm not leaving the house as much, so I need to get some podcasts done.

And so it has become, let me be more productive with this dog walking time. And. So that is something I think you had mentioned, like even going on a walk and that you would look for the color red, or you look for the color yellow, or you have a practice that brings you back into the space. And so I would love to hear more about that.

So I think it would be cool to see, to ease into it, to have that dog walking time, be the beginning where I'm doing a minor. Practice as I'm walking the dog. And then when we get back in the house to take 10 minutes and do a meditation app where I'm just sitting in the house somewhere doing that.

So that's my loose plan.

Sean: That sounds great.

Nancy: Oh, cool. I needed your approval on,

Sean: It's a good starting place, right? Because. Immediately it's manageable. It's doable. You're going to enjoy it. Yeah. If someone would be setting themselves up for some level of failure, if they are trying to force something on themselves that they don't even enjoy on some level.

So you're talking about how I go on walks and I'll go looking for a particular color. Or I go looking for padlocks, or I only walked down ways or I look at chimneys. Oh. And lightening rods. I go out looking for lightning rods. So what it does is it's just taking me out of my head and it's bringing me into my body.

It's bringing him into my space and this is mindfulness. This is a fun. Version of it, right? Because you're doing these field trips. You don't have to focus on breathing. You don't have to pretend you don't have to try to be Buddha, but I would say highly important to what you're saying is don't look at your phone, turn it off.

Yeah. But a resource that I recommend for this is Rob Walker's book, the art of noticing and emails. Yeah. I think that, I think I recommended them. He does these weekly icebreaker things. So they're fun, but he's particularly with with the pandemic. He's been really talking a lot about how, what we can do just within our neighborhoods without having to travel far distances, how we can engage and enjoy our neighborhoods.

But the subtitle of this book is 131 ways to spark creativity, find inspiration to discover joy in the everyday God. He was the one who inspired me to go looking for a color. I would say. Try, I would say, start with your dog, but I recommend at some point go in, without your dog

Nancy: Ah, that's a good idea.

Yeah. Yeah. That would be non-productive

Sean: exactly.

Because with your dog, you are giving yourself that excuse because isn't going out and taking a walk for yourself enough?

Nancy: You would think? yeah, even as you said that my first thought was, oh, that makes sense. And I was like, oh my gosh, when would I possibly find time to do that?

Which dude, it's not like I'm booked, 24, 7 or even 12 hours a day. I could definitely find time. To do it. It was just me taking the time to do it. But yeah, absolutely.

Sean: So I'll often do that in the middle of the day. So I'll do a quick lunch and then I grab an apple and then I take a walk and I find that actually middle of the day is a really good time.

Because you're awake in your alerts. Yeah. To talk about like the sitting meditation. So I do sit in meditation, I have my cushion and you have your cushion. I love my cushion. Like I have right there on the floor and people trip over it. When they walk into my room, I have put it like smack dab.

In the middle of the floor of my office and it doesn't move. It's not in the corner. It's not, it doesn't have a special space. It sits there and it demands attention.

I was going to say, you were talking about. The puppy metaphor, the Headspace people use the blue sky metaphor where, you're trying to obtain that blue sky where you don't have any of the worries and thoughts going by.

But the truth is that the sky constantly has clouds going past it. I'm on the other side of it. Yeah. The blue sky. And when we're having these thoughts, the feelings come into our minds. Our first reaction is to resist them and we want to push them away and get rid of them as opposed to what they've recommended and what I've learned to do.

And this is like very valuable it beginning practice is what's called recognizing where you are. You literally in your mind say that's a thought and it feels like this. Or not even that it feels like that's a thought and it's a negative thought or it's a positive thought, and then you identify it and then you go back to, we are breathing or your visualization or whatever it is.

And then when the next one comes, you do the same thing. And it's not about pushing them away ever. It's about just, okay. There it is. And now. I'm just going to let it go and moving back to your focus and to send to the anxiety stuff. And you can definitely do this when you're walking is that we get so wrapped up in thinking that our thoughts and our feelings are us, as opposed to something that we're experiencing. And so when we identify these things as this, instead of saying, I am sad, you can say, I am experiencing sad. I love that. Yeah. To identify our thoughts and their feelings is something that we're experiencing as opposed to who we are. And for me, that's what had been one of the, when we talk about the results, I would say that's one of the biggest results because that, it's always work, but I don't always successfully do this, but I can generally achieve this experience where I can say, oh, that's, I'm experiencing something right now.

And I can just be with it. I don't have to do anything. And just it's there and immediately makes it so much better when I don't identify it as me.

Nancy: Yeah. Because I think partially why I'm more interested in this, in the idea of meditation now, why it's coming up is because before I did the happier approach and did you know, acknowledging your feelings and getting into your body before I had the ask philosophy, practicing ask is my baby step to be like, oh, you aren't your feelings.

You aren't your thoughts. Let's be curious about who you are as a person, as opposed to just treating yourself like a machine that needs to be harnessing your best potential. And I think to have that reminder to myself, I have taken some steps towards mindfulness in comparatively to even when I went to the wrong seat.

Conference I was talking about, but my next step is I need to do it more intentionally for longer periods of time. And so that was another reason why this seems intriguing to me to actually have a practice. Yes.

Sean: So would you say that's what this experiment is feeling out what your personal practice would be?

Nancy: Definitely. Yeah. Cause I feel like I've railed against it for so long. It's become a thing. That I rail against it more so than it's worth railing against. And so I'm ha let's put down my ego for a minute about how I don't meditate. You don't have to meditate to deal with your anxiety and be like, okay, all these people are saying, this is really beneficial.

So let's put down that you go and practice and see. How to make this your own and it doesn't have to be, oh, which is a strong pull for me. Obviously it doesn't have to be the here's the 45 minute session. And I'm going to sit in the Lotus with my. Legs crossed applesauce and be all, Zen for 45 minutes.

That's I, that is not necessarily going to happen. It may happen a day or two, or I may be into that, but I don't have to be rigid about my practice. And even that. Is new to me, not to have to be rigid about it, but to figure out how to make it mine. Yeah. I want to look at it as this is the next step of exploring my internal world and I've spent most of my life looking outside for the answers and I realized that, okay, it's not that all the answers to life's mysteries are inside me, but I think that.

Navigating life would be easier if I had a little more awareness of what's happening inside my brain and body,

Sean: I feel like life becomes richer. Yeah.

Nancy: That's the word? It is richer. Not easier richer.

Sean: Yeah. And I think that misunderstanding. Meditation is going to make life easier. And then when it doesn't causes a lot of people who have tried, it feels strife.

They feel like why isn't this working?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. Cause I think that is that is a key difference.

Sean: It might not make things easier, but I feel like it does make it better and more manageable for me because things are still hard, yeah. But I feel less panicky about it and I feel like there's something I know that I can do.

And I know that's a thing that appeal to a lot of listeners. I think having something neat that when you feel out of control and it's just oh shit, I can't believe this. That you actually have a tool that you can fall back on.

Nancy: And a grounding within yourself to no pull into, I keep thinking of that.

But I think lately I've been missing that connection with myself because I have been so externally focused because of COVID and everything that's happening in our world and have pulled up some of my negative coping strategies. To deal with that. You have gone back into my defaults and I want to reset that.

And this is a way of doing that. That's a fun light-hearted. I can think of it as an experiment and pull back some of that rigid rigidness.

Sean: And for me, I think. For me and my personal brand of mindfulness is to look at everything it is happening to us with as an opportunity. This is, we don't learn anything, just living in easy beige colored life.

We just don't know challenges, difficulties. This is an opportunity for us to grow. And if we don't have those opportunities and it's, difficult things suck, but I think that we can appoint you approach them with a little as a word to joy Levine. And I just be like, all right.

All right. Life, let's bring it on. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, definitely. I think because I think when we're not so focused on. I got to get to the DMV and get to the next thing. So I can check this off the list and be like, this is where I am, I'm at the DMV. So I might as well make this the best experience it can be.

My dad always makes me laugh. He used to play the game, walking down the street which I didn't know this. And my dad was like, business suit, super gruff looking guy. He would see how many people he could get to talk to him and he would, so you'd greet everyone down the street and see if he could get them to smile and talk with him.

And I was like, wow, that is totally, did not expect that from my dad. What a fun little game, and it's a way to bring you back to center.

Sean: My stepdaughter and I, and my wife were walking down the street the other day and we, and I got my stepdaughter to play a game where we were looking for things that were odd.

And then we were rating them on a scale of odd. And then. And it was so fun. Cause she's 12 and I'd be like, look at that. That's pretty odd. She's oh no, that's not odd enough that doesn't make the cut.

Nancy: That's awesome.

Sean: So you're playing. Is you're going to wait a month to start off with how long a month I can do a month. Yeah, I have a hundred percent. You're going to do it out of just sheer stubbornness at this point.

Nancy: Oh, Hells to the, yeah. And this is it. That's partly why I wanted to declare it so that I could be like, I know I have it here.

It is. It's declared. I'm doing a meditation experiment now. I can't back out. And I'm going to report back in a month and share how it went and it, and that doesn't mean it's going to be like, oh, and it went amazingly and I've totally changed person. It's going to be my struggle with how it went or the ups and downs.

And I think that's how I'm approaching it differently this time than how I have in the past, where in the past it would have been like, and so in a month, I'll come back and share with you how it's been amazing. And I've a totally changed person. And. Cause I wouldn't want to show that it didn't go well.

And now I can be like, I'm open to where it's going to go and what my sticky points are going to be and the experiment.

Sean: Yeah. I love that. Because with an experiment, you can't go into an experiment knowing what's going to happen because then it's not an experiment. Do you intend on exploring different modes of meditation or do you intend on doing the one year to start there?

Are you open to changing and trying other things? Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. And so when you say other. Modalities of meditation. What would that be? Where would I find those? Do you have any

Sean: I use the Headspace app. One of the things that's nice about it is every meditation that they have.

So they have like their daily that they provide, which is, you never know what it's going to be, but it's typically they'll have some sort of discussion on a topic. I don't know, a couple of minutes before you start meditating. And then the system of the guided meditation is consistently the same and it's breath.

It's breathing based. Okay. And what's nice about them is that you can, there's a slider where you can choose anywhere from five minutes, 20 minutes as you actually choose the length of the meditation based upon. Okay. And I, one of the things I like about them is that it's not, it's pretty poppy and it's very accessible.

But when I say other modes, there's also visualization, so there's breath based, but then there's visualization based. Or things like you S you have a some light growing in your chest that expands out into your body. And then it starts expanding out into the room. I struggle with visualization visualizations.

I am not good at them. So even this morning as I was meditating, I know that I'm not supposed to use this language, but I was failing as a meditator this morning. I was thinking about this interview. I was thinking this conversation. I was thinking about all the things I had to do for work, but I have reached this point.

Then when I find myself quote, unquote, failing as a meditator, I actually laugh at myself because I actually laughed out loud, sitting there meditating. I laughed to myself and then I go back to my brain. And that is, that's a huge accomplishment that I've gotten there. Other modes of meditation are moving meditation and that's where like even Headspace has these, where they have walking meditations, where you do put your headphones on, you listen to a specific meditation and you go out and take a walk, listening to it.

I haven't done it yet, but they have the whole thing. Oh, wow. Okay. That might be something really valuable for you to try out. Yeah. And they also have like sleeping meditation. So the middle of the night you wake up, will you put it on and they bring you to a different place. I'm really, I really dig what they do.

And I know that there are many other ones, it was just the first one that I chose when I was in a place of desperation. But those are the, those are some of the. I'm that I'm familiar with. And I'm I thinking that there's a lot of other modes modalities. Okay. Can I give you one piece of advice though, for starting off with your don't do this sitting down on the cushion thing.

Okay. Find yourself a good upright chair, like a kitchen table chair with a back. Okay. And set up right. Ground your feet, hands in your lap. And don't put too many barriers up at first because a lot of us, our bodies don't like to sit on the ground. And I would say, grow, graduate into that, but just sitting upright in a chair.

is just such a good way to meditate. So in a month or so I'm looking forward to hearing what comes of

Nancy: this. Yeah, me too. I'm definitely looking forward to it. I think it'll be fun.

Sean: Are we going to, are we going to touch bases on our follow-up to this episode?

Nancy: Yeah, definitely. Thanks Sean.

Sean: You bet ya.

Nancy: I appreciate all your insight and your help. You made it so much more approachable. I was already feeling that it was approachable, but just walking through the different ways you've done it and how it's helped you and challenging me on my own biases around it has been helped.

Sean: Good. I'm glad to hear that as always

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Episode 154: How to Be the Caretaker of Your Own Radical Personal Empowerment and Self-Love

In this episode, I’m talking with Amy E. Smith, a certified confidence coach, speaker, and personal empowerment expert about people-pleasing.

How often are you apologizing, regardless if you hurt someone or if the situation truly necessitated an “I’m sorry”? 

People-pleasing includes a lot of apologizing, and it doesn’t always express what we really mean which, sometimes, isn’t so much I’m sorry as it is I’m so thankful. 

I used to say I’m so sorry all the time. I’d apologize for everything—even when it’s not really what I meant. Here’s an example from my own life. When I published my book, The Happier Approach, some of my friends and family hosted book parties in their homes. 

One of my dear friends from high school, Renee Mattson who spoke on the podcast about how to avoid passing your anxiety onto your kids (here’s part one and part two), hosted one of these events. She invited me to her house a little early so we could have lunch together. 

When I arrived, Renee realized she’d forgotten to think about lunch. As she was running around the kitchen, prepping leftovers, I started to feel bad. She went into all this trouble—hosting an event for me—and now she’s serving me lunch! 

My Monger was having a field day with this. As the words “I’m so sorry you had to make me lunch” came out of my mouth, I caught myself and simply said: “Thank you so much for making lunch. I know it wasn’t easy and I really appreciate it.” Renee’s face lit up and she said, “you are so welcome, I’m so glad you came early. I know it’s just leftovers but it gives us a chance to talk and catch up.” 

In that moment, I realized that by saying thank you—which is what I truly meant—it allowed me to appreciate Renee, allowed her to feel appreciated, and empowered both of us. Had I apologized instead and said my 3 favorite words, “I am sorry”, then she would have apologized for throwing together leftovers and all the things that we people pleasers apologize for and we would have both left the conversation feeling disempowered. 

Today on the show, my guest Amy E. Smith and I are talking about people-pleasing and how saying I’m sorry all the time is just one of the ways that people-pleasing shows up in our lives and how it disempowers us and keeps us disconnected from the people in our lives. 

Amy is a certified confidence coach, masterful speaker, and personal empowerment expert. Founder of TheJoyJunkie.com, Amy uses her roles as coach, writer, podcaster, and speaker to move individuals to a place of radical personal empowerment and self-love. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What people-pleasing is and how you can be a strong, high achiever and still be a people pleaser (raising my hand here)

• My own story about people-pleasing that took place at the Brene Brown daring Way training I attended and how I handled it (or didn’t handle it)

• HOW to speak up for yourself and HOW to start building your inner strength around self-loyalty and worthiness.

• Amy’s metaphor for self-worth which is gold

Resources mentioned:

• TheJoyJunkie.com

• Follow Amy on Instagram

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Transcript:

Amy: It's almost if you are going in to try on a new outfit, sometimes you just got to go in the store and just stand there and look at it for a minute. You might not be even ready to try it on yet, but for God's sake, go in the fucking store and you'll get to a point where you wear it with pride and then you start adding some accessories and some heels.

And but we have to start trying it on. So just listening to this going, what is this crazy girl on the internet has something to say. What if I actually could change this belief about myself? You have to start picking it apart.

Nancy: Three little words used to come out of my mouth all the time. I am sorry. I would apologize for everything, whether I hurt someone or not years ago, after I published the happier approach, a few of my friends and family hosted book parties for me in their homes.

One of my dear friends from high school, Renee Mattson, who spoke earlier this year on the podcast about kids and anxiety hosted one of these events. She invited me to her house a little early, so we could have lunch together. And when I arrived, she realized she'd forgotten to think about lunch. So she threw together some leftovers and it turned out to be an amazing lunch as she was running around the kitchen.

I thought to myself, oh my gosh, I feel so bad because she went through all this trouble and she's hosting an event for me. And now she's serving me lunch. Who am I to ask for all these. Of course, my monger was having a field day. And as the words, I'm so sorry, you had to make me lunch, started to come out of my mouth.

I caught myself and I simply said, “thank you for making lunch. I know it wasn't easy. And I really appreciate it.” Her face lit up and she said, “oh my gosh, you are so welcome. I'm so glad you came early. I know it's just leftovers, but it really gives us a chance to talk and catch up.”

I realized that by saying thank you, which is what I truly meant. It allowed me to appreciate her and it allowed her to feel appreciated. And it empowered. Both of us had I apologized and said my three favorite words, I'm sorry. Then she would apologize for throwing together leftovers and all the things that we people pleasers apologize for. And we would have both left the conversation, feeling disempowered today on the show. We're talking about people pleasing and saying, I'm sorry is just one of the many ways people-pleasing shows up in our life.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

On this episode, I'm talking with Amy E Smith, who is a certified confidence coach, masterful speaker and personal empowerment expert. She's founder of the joy junkie.com and she uses her role as a coach writer, podcaster and speaker to move individuals to a place of radical personal empowerment. And self-love, I am so excited for you to hear our conversation because Amy really breaks down this topic in a new and refreshing way.

Keep listening to hear the definition of people-pleasing and how you can be a strong high achiever and still be a people pleaser. Raising my hand over here. My own story about people pleasing that took place at the Brené Brown Daring Way training I attended and how I handled it, or didn't handle it both how to speak up for yourself and how to start building your inner strength around self loyalty and worthiness and Amy's metaphor for self-worth, which is golden.

I am so excited to be here today with Amy Smith, AKA the joy junkie, and we are going to be talking about people pleasing and all things around people, pleasing, specifically, setting boundaries, speaking your needs, all that good stuff. Welcome

Amy: Amy. Thank you for having Nancy. I'm super excited. I love talking about this stuff, so cool.

Nancy: Awesome. Okay. So I want to dive in and let's set the scene. So what exactly is people pleasing?

Amy: This is one of those. Monikers that I think people get tripped up on in the personal development space, because if you are someone who is high achieving, which I know you engage with a lot of people who are that way.

And if you are a very goal oriented and accomplishment, check off the boxes, all of those sorts of things, we tend to have this idea of somebody being a people pleaser as someone who is not very accomplished, who's meek and mild and quiet and get stepped on all the time. And I feel like that's a very shallow view of what a people pleaser really is.

So if you distill it down into what, at least the way in which I teach it is that it's anyone who is so invested in the opinions of other people that they twist and contort their own behavior. So changing how you behave.

So this could be as simple as fretting over what you're going to wear while you're walking your dogs. Because God forbid your neighbors see you in a specific way. All the way to, I have to perform this way at work or in my business, because what would my colleagues think? So congratulations. You're probably in the people pleasing category. But I also think semantics matter. So if you don't resonate with that specific moniker. It could just be I'm wrestling with my investment in what other people think. But either way we've got an issue here, something.

Nancy: Yeah. When I walk the dog, sometimes I'll be like, oh, I wore the same shirt yesterday. What will people think? And I'll be like, no one notices that you wore the same. No one's looking at you as you're walking. So that was a good example.

Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of us have that we have these, one of the things that I talk about with my students all the time is, my, I have two rules.

I don't have many, but I do have two. And one is you do not apologize for crying and you don't apologize for what you look like. You don't, you roll out of bed. You get on, no, because guaranteed dudes aren't doing that. So it's one way we can say fuck the patriarchy.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. Yeah, totally. So some of it is, and the people pleasing is the investment you have in what other people think.

And then some of it I find, and I'm curious, your thoughts on this is like a, it's like your empathy radar is off and you are too invested in other people issues and problems and perceptions of you.

Amy: Yes, that's a tricky one because this is also, it's tricky also in the realm of values.

So for example, you could have a strong value around accomplishment, achievement also sometimes caregiving or impact philanthropy. And there are times when I think our values cross the line between, it brings me fulfillment into this realm of I'm not valuable unless I have all of these things. And a value is really something that should be adding to your life.

Your self-worth is contingent on if you accomplish, if you achieve. And I think empathy is in that sticky place, because especially if you're a highly sensitive person, which many people's anxiety are or if you are an empath and you feel things very palpably, and you're also a woman unpacking some of the narratives around we're responsible for everybody else's feelings and emotions, it gets very convoluted.

So I think in those situations, your wording really matters. So this is one of the reasons why I advocate that people don't say I feel bad. Or I feel guilty, guilt. If you have to say no to somebody, or if you have to decline an invite or you have to say, no, I'm not going to bake all those cupcakes for the kids class or whatever, then you, that doesn't warrant guilt.

You haven't done anything wrong. You don't need to change your behavior in any way. So one of the ways to work with that is to acknowledge what empowering emotion you're feeling. So it could be something like I'm feeling concerned, I'm feeling compassion, I'm feeling empathy. I'm feeling love. I'm feeling whatever it is, but let's stop saying I feel bad or I feel guilty because that locks us into I'm responsible for their emotional current.

Nancy: I love that. Yeah. That is that's really well said. Yeah. I would want to highlight the part about values. Not a standard for which your self-worth is contingent on. I've never heard someone separate that out. And I think that is a place where people go with values,

Amy: all the time.

And so where it, because we're also gluttonous, we're a gluttonous population and people, and if you're anxious, you probably also have that. I've got to have as much as possible. So if it's a value, I need to honor it to its absolute fullest. And then we get in this perfectionism around our personal development, but what's really, so the way that I describe a value is just a component that must be present in your life in order for you to be fulfilled.

So it's like an addition. So for example, I know that order and organization bring me a lot of fulfillment. I love love when things are in their place and tidy and all of that. So if I am able to touch a bunch of stuff in my office, I might get oh, like this burst of thrill, right?

That's an example of that value bringing me fulfillment. That's what it's designed to do right now. Conversely, let's say I have a bunch of friends over to my house and I'm not able to sit and connect with them because I'm stressed out about cleaning all the dishes, wiping down all the counters is everybody's glasses over here.

That would be an example of now the value has crossed over and now it's stealing my joy, but that's a fine line for everybody, but it gets tricky in the realm of accomplishment, achievement and. Specifically when we're talking about people pleasing, when we genuinely have a value around giving back to others, helping professions, that kind of stuff.

Really watch that line.

Nancy: Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. So why do you think people get stuck in this cycle of people pleasing?

Amy: Oh, geez. I think can we just blame the patriarchy for everything? Because pretty much that's what it is, but there's a handful of reasons, even if we go back even further than that.

Maybe not. I think it was prevalent pretty much all the time, but even if we look at our ancestors and we look at something like. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. One of our primitive needs as humans is a sense of belonging. And that comes from our ancestors. When, if you did not belong to a group to an organized group that literally meant death, that meant you cannot survive.

So that is bred into our subconscious, into our lizard mind. And so now, as we have evolved and developed as a species, now our lizard subconscious mind registers, oh, if Nancy doesn't like me, I might die. If this grouping of people don't like me, I might die social anxiety. I'm sure you've talked about this.

A lot. Anxiety is an iteration of our fear response. It's part of what we are already built with, so it's very easy for us to see now. I don't know if you've talked too much about this, but how we have various iterations of the fear response where. Anxiety. If you are apt to be in a situation where you would normally fight, but you can't fight that now has become anxiety.

If you're in a situation where you would normally flee, but you can't flee, you can't run away. Your boss is coming down your throat. It's more likely that you have depression. That's one of the reasons why people go to sleep when they're depressed, they're trying to flee. If you procrastinate a lot, it's likely that you are somebody who would be stuck in the freeze response.

That's the modern iteration of freeze. And then we have this sort of newer guy on the circuit, which is fun, which is this notion of, if you would normally try to make friends with that lion, that's about to eat you like, oh, friends, let me give you some food. That's fawning, modern iteration of that is people pleasing.

So we have all of these things that basically are the ways in which we're engaging with fear and which I'm sure you've talked about plenty, but I think really coming back and understanding for ourselves that first of all, I think there's only one documented case of a woman who does not have the fear response.

And unless you are, she, it's highly likely that with fear and hence anxiety and all of these other things. But it may also be a part of the marriage between the anxiety and some of this people pleasing stuff too. But recognizing that, oh, my body is actually just trying to take care of me. I was wired this way and now we know consciously, oh, I'm actually not going to die body.

Thank you so much for sending in all that anxiety, but I'm not going to die. If Nancy doesn't like me, I'm not going to die. If all these people don't buy my shit or I, one of my favorite tools for anxiety has been talking to my physiological response, talking to my body. But recognizing that for me, it was really eye-opening that, oh, I'm not fucking broken.

I have just this primitive response, that's manifesting this way. And for some of it it's the fawning it's I can take care of myself if I make sure everybody loves me. So I think that's a huge piece. There's also a faulty narrative that people buy into around around self-worth like we were dancing around earlier and it sounds something like this.

If these people love and accept me, then I'm worthy or conversely, if they do not love and accept me, then I must not be worthy. And then there's a, self-fulfilling prophecy in every area.

Nancy: Yeah. And it's a bottomless pit, like if, even if they give me approval, I got to keep searching. It might fall at any time.

I did got to keep sucking up, that idea. It was interesting. I went, I I, the fawning and the freezing and reminds me of Brené Brown's shame shields that she talks about. And I was at the training with Brené Brown and people who have listened to me have heard this story.

You suck up when you feel shame. I was at the conference in my small little group, and I had shared something about how I had written a blog post about my dad having dementia. And that was how it got out into the world that this was happening to him.

And one of the members came up to me after, and she was like, that one of the only thing that people with dementia have control over is who knew, who knows. And you took that away from him by sharing that publicly. And I immediately was awash in shame and said, oh, thank you so much for sharing that you're right that was, terrible of me. And I sat down and I thought to myself, why did I thank her for calling me out on something that was already done and that she had no clue about? And then I had talked to my parents about they knew it was happening. Like it wasn't, but I, instead of correcting her or moving, in a different way, I thanked her for that really critical comment to me.

And that was when I was like, ah, there's the sucking up there. There is a demonstration of how that's showing up for me. And I am so good at doing that. Sometimes I don't even notice that I'm doing it

Amy: right. So I have two things I want to say about that. One is actually three first is that's where personal development goes bad.

That's where, when I call self-help goes wrong when it becomes elitist and condescending. Okay. So I don't condone that behavior. Second of all, is that those are perfect opportunities to do what I call declaring the do-over. Hindsight is 2020. You see really clearly what happened there after the fact, and then being very intentional about here's what I'm going to do next time.

And you can either visualize it. You can write it out. These are the things I'm going to say, but mapping out, these, this is going to be different next time. The third thing that I wanted to say about that is having, especially if you know that this is your tendency, this is one of the ways to declare the do-over is to get ahead of any time I'm caught off guard.

Anytime I'm caught off guard or I'm confronted by something. And I'm not fully ready to process this or retort in a way where I feel like I can really advocate for myself. You can simply say something like, wow, I'm really caught off guard by your statement. I'm going to need to mull that over a little bit.

Before I respond, I want to give the courtesy, it deserves, love that having some kind of statement or even very simple. Wow. I was not ready for that, or I wasn't expecting that. I want to give this a thoughtful response. So I'm going to need to chew on that. I'm going to marinate whatever the words are for you.

But if this is your case where you have that gut response of just you must be right. Then because we will respond to criticism in that way. We know from NLP neuro-linguistic programming that whoever has the stronger frame, meaning whoever is more demonstrative, gregarious, outspoken or assertive or aggressive will absorb any lesser frame.

So she comes at you with very like assertive. Here's what you did wrong. And it's for sure a thing. If you don't match that with equally as powerful of a frame, you get just gobbled right up. One of the biggest pieces in speaking up for yourself and speaking your needs, speaking your truth is having these go-to phrases.

So rewind that if you need to write it down and then rehearse the fuck out of it, stand in front of your mirror and rehearse it because you will be surprised how quickly you call upon that the next time somebody sideswipes you. Now, one other thing, bonus number four is if you can, if you recognized that during the time during the conference, you can go circle back and clean that shit up.

And you can say, you know what? I so appreciate your honesty and you sharing with me your perspective. And I realized that I jumped on board with that without fully processing it. And we don't need to get involved in a big conversation, but I just wanted to let you know that after thinking about it, I don't share that same stance.

Nancy: Ah, that's lovely

Amy: So where you can cut because I do find that people go, oh, I've never said anything for 30 years, or I've never said anything this whole time I've worked at this company. I can't say something now. And I'm like, yes, you can. Yes, you absolutely can. Yeah.

Nancy: So I love that because it's doing the intention, it's setting the intention.

So it's like being able to, I think a lot of times when we hear this stuff, the self-help stuff and personal development, we are like, oh yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. I would totally do that, but we never put it into our bodies in the sense of you say practicing it and get in front of the mirror and recognize the do over.

And what would you say, like all of that intentionality is so important to reprogram the natural response.

Amy: Exactly. And that, it's one of the stickier things about personal development in general is that. It's all thought and feeling work it's emotional work. So it's not oh, I do this sort of investing.

And I make all this money right. Where you can see a very tangible result. You won't, you will feel it. You will, the way it shows up is how you respond or how you advocate for yourself. And you, all of a sudden are shocked that you're doing that, but it takes repetition. Just like anything else, just like lifting weights or learning a new language.

You don't just look at a book to learn Spanish and go, oh, that's a really good, yes. And then go. Cool. Good idea. And then close the fucking book. The thing with personal development only, it's less tangible. So you have to really look at what are those practices. And I think writing out phrases and rehearsing them is one of the most powerful things you can.

Nancy: I totally agree with you. So I want to go back to the example that I gave of that, I didn't know I was going to give, but I, so I did not end up circling back and talking to her. I just let it go. And when you just said that to me about circling back, I don't think I felt worthy enough to say that to, to even say the very benign thing you said just to even have the self loyalty enough to stand up for myself to say, I don't agree with you, so how do you start building that? And I know that's like the five hours of podcasting and I'm throwing you under the bus, so to speak, but I'm because I think that's the piece that gets, we hear the how, but we don't know, we don't have that inner belief yet that we're valuable enough to speak up.

Amy: Yes. So it, yeah, this is definitely not something you can wrap up in a quick, like 30 minute segment, but there are ways that you can start to move the mark. And I will say that you can work in either direction, so you can start by really bolstering and working on a sense of self-worth and there's a litany of ways to go about that.

And I'll talk about that in a second, so that you then have the side effects of feeling confident in speaking up, or you can work outside in where you start basically. What is it, fake it till you make it fake it until you actually believe it. And that usually feels wildly more scary and authentic to people, right?

The way that I work is to work more through the internal pieces and then move into how do you communicate that with the outside world, but you can work in either direction. It depends on how you operate best. And it also depends on where your biggest sticking points are. And I would say for most people, there's this sense of, I am not enough.

That's one of the reasons why we overachieve, right? Let me pile all of these accomplishments because then maybe I'll be worthy. And what we're actually saying with that is then maybe I'll actually be happy. Yes, because what we're always searching for is, we have to human drivers pursuit of pleasure, avoidance of pain.

And so if we think something will give us pleasure, that's usually an emotional response. That's going to make me feel happy or good or fulfilled. So we are always moving towards things based off of how we want to feel. And worthiness is one of those things that's directly tied to happiness. So it's maybe once I have this baby, then I'll be worthy, then I'll be happy.

It's all stockpiled together. So I have a little metaphor about that and I think the first step around believing that you are enough and I should say in the service of semantics, everybody uses. A handful of synonyms around worthiness. So the ones that I hear are mattering that I matter in some way, that I'm valuable, that I'm deserving.

I am enough worthiness. And then sometimes people equate lovable that I'm lovable. So whatever your semantics are, we're all, it's all self worth. That's what we're talking about

Nancy: Because the semantics are important because it has to resonate with you. As people are listening, it has to be like, oh yeah, valuable.

That's the, that's what I'm looking for. It lovable. That's what I'm looking for. Anyway, not to interrupt you, I just wanted to, I appreciate the semantics focus. Because I think it's HUGE.

Amy: , it really is. Yes, it really is. So think about what are those. What is that deep seated belief for you? Is it that I don't matter that I'm not enough, is it that I'm not worthy, that I don't have value?

What, deserving is another huge one. I'm not deserving of the things I want. So what is that for you? And then what I want you to understand is that there's nothing wrong with you. There's only something wrong with the belief system and beliefs are totally malleable. We know from, from ton of anecdotal evidence, but then also just how the neural pathways work in the mind that our brain has plasticity, meaning that you absolutely can teach an old dog new tricks.

So everything that you believe right now, You've gotten to that place because of some kind of conditioning where you witnessed some sort of event or circumstance or upbringing or chapter of your life. And then you made a conclusion about that. And we do that stuff subconsciously. We don't go, oh, I have parents who were really absent growing up, or I had a special needs sibling who got all of the attention.

So I'm going to throw all of who I am into academia and accomplishing and achieving so that I can maybe be valuable in some way. And now as an adult, I'm going to have zero sense of self worth. And I'm going to just keep checking off all the boxes and feel totally empty and drink myself to sleep every night.

Nobody does that. We just experienced something. And then we create our interpretation, which becomes the belief. So if we're looking at like, how do we change a belief around the enoughness piece? The first step is actually getting curious and getting inquisitive about, could this actually change?

Because most of the time when we have a belief it's factual in our mind, it's the truth. And now if we look at like a, an extreme example, like a cult, okay. A Cult has stringent belief structure, built in to the cells of the person's being anyone who breaks out of a situation like that. The first thing they will tell you is they started questioning.

They started getting curious. They started asking, wait a minute. Is this really all that there is this really all? That's right. So how that relates to us is start asking what if I actually created this belief that I'm not enough or that I'm not worthy? What if I could actually shift that and change it?

And it's almost like if you are. Going in to try on a new outfit. Sometimes you just got to go in the store and just stand there and look at it for a minute. You might not be even ready to try it on yet, but for God's sake, go in the fucking store. And we, and you'll get to a point where you wear it with pride and then you start adding some accessories and some heels.

And but we have to start trying it on. So just listening to this going, what is this crazy girl? And the internet has something to say. What if I actually could change this belief about myself? You have to start picking it apart. The other metaphor that I have that might be helpful for people. Is this notion of who you are as a house.

Like your self-worth is you are this house. Okay. And we've got some rooms that are far more pristine, and then we've got other ones that we don't want people to see. We're still cleaning up some shit over there. And, but this is us. We have our value, nothing can change the value of this home, this house.

And then we have people who will drop off, let's say a gift on your porch. And this is like receiving accomplishments or accolades or honors or compliments or acceptance. And we go, oh wow. As a human, that emotionally feels off. Okay, cool. I'll go ahead and bring that into my house, but I also recognize that I'm just experiencing how good that emotion feels.

This gift does not change the value of this house, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yes. That's. I love that metaphor. Oh my gosh. That's amazing

Amy: . So the antithesis of that is somebody leaving a giant pile of shit on your porch. And this is rejection criticism, loss, disappointment being passed over for jobs being dumped.

And we go, okay, I'll go ahead and take all of that shit and bring it into my house. And then it stinks it up and makes it all messy. It still doesn't change the worth of the house, but it makes your situation really stinky. So one of my favorite metaphors or mantras rather around this is, oh, I'm currently not accepting any piles of shit.

So for your interaction with this gal, she was basically saying here, you want to handle all of this shit. I'm going to hand you this pile and nowhere in any circumstance, would anybody be like, okay, I'll literally carry that. If we're talking about not literally how millennials use it, but literally like the original definition.

Nancy: Yes.

Amy: Someone's hold onto this for me, Nancy.

I'm currently not accepting any piles of shit, but what we have to recognize. And I know you've talked a lot about emotional intelligence, is that when we're rejected, when we're criticized, when somebody says, no, I don't want to be with you anymore, or no, I don't want to hire you. That is going to carry an emotional response.

We are going to hurt. We are going to feel that, but that does not mean that you aren't worthy. That means that somebody left shit on your porch and you have to decide, am I going to make that mean that this is going to stink up my whole place? Or I'm mad. I'm going to go, Hey, that sucks. I'm going to let myself feel that I'm going to let myself cry, but I'm going to hang out here in, in all of my self-worth and recognize that our human experience is different than our worth.

What we feel is different than our worth, but emotions are fucking dramatic. So we feel like, oh, he doesn't love me. She doesn't love me. I must be not lovable instead of this is just this hurts. This situation sucks. I don't suck.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great clarifier. Yeah, I totally, yeah. Yeah,

Amy: I forgot the question I'm sorry.

Nancy: . No, you answered it. Because it's about like, how do you start moving? How do you start moving that line of self-worth? And I think the house metaphor, like even paying attention to, what am I letting in my house? Am I picking up the shit someone's leaving and bringing it in?

And that, because so many of, my, my peeps, my clients, my listeners the accolades define who they are. And so to recognize I can bring it in and I can be excited about this, but that doesn't mean that it defines me.

Amy: Yeah. And there's two other things that I think people will sometimes not allow themselves to feel the joy. Like they don't let themselves feel the excitement or they dismiss compliments. That's also a self worth saying or they think if I accept the compliment, if I allow it, then I'm being somehow grandiloquent and have all this hubris, which is also faulty.

If you think about, if you were to give me a lovely gift of, let's say some really fine scotch whiskey, which I would definitely not be mad at you for. (laughter)

So let's say, me, I love this. You've been thinking of me. I did something you thought was really awesome. And so you're. Hey, Amy, I got you. This gift. I was just so proud of you for this thing. You did, blah, blah, blah. And what if I took that and I smashed it onto the ground. That is exactly what it's like.

When somebody gives you a compliment and you try to talk them out of it, they, it is the exchange of energy. Definitely. If you thought about it being an actual, real gift, I would never do that. You would never do that. So the same thing is true about conditioning, our own self-belief and our own self-worth.

If we are constantly talking people out of compliments for us, or if we are constantly putting other people's opinions in front of our own all the time, that reinforces that subconscious message that you are not enough. If you were to do nothing with that situation that you highlighted with the gal at the conference, if you kept going into those scenarios over and over again, doing the same thing that would reinforce that.

First of all, you don't deserve to speak up. Second of all. Everybody else is right. And you're responsible to make them feel good. Whatever the beliefs are, but it will, it keeps compounding it. So that's one of the things that I tell people I'm like, even though it's hard to have a boundary, even though it's hard to speak up for yourself, please understand why that's important because your silence is making you a liar, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the reason that story stands out to me so strongly is because that shifted, that was the story that started shifting stuff for me that was like, wait a minute, look at how often you do that. Because I hadn't ever seen it right in front of me, literally at five minutes after it happened.

Look what you just did. And I hadn't, I'd been doing that my whole life. I just hadn't seen it in such like a TV show in front of me way. That makes sense. But wouldn't you say, because when you said that about the accolades, someone, Not celebrating your accolades. If you if you celebrated your accolades, if you were like, I just got this award, that's so amazing.

And you were super excited. I would be super excited for you. And I wouldn't think, oh God, who does she think she is to be celebrating this? But I have separated out accolades and self-worth,

Amy: yes, good

Nancy: but if they are the same to me, if you are celebrating it, then you celebrating the accolade in my mind means you're celebrating yourself worth.

And so then you are full of yourself. In that warped view of how those work together.

Amy: Yeah. This is where I feel like, do you think most men have this concern? That's one thing from a meta view. The other is, I think selfish is the new black personally. I think we need to get out of this notion.

If you think about. I did an interview with somebody years ago who was under the impression that self-love was selfish and something that we shouldn't necessarily strive for, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah, it was a man wierdly enough. And so I was like, okay, let me take this guy to school real quick.

And, but I, if you think about love in any other context, Love with children. Love with animals, love of nature, love of a community. Love between spouses. It's never a selfish thing. It's never a negative thing. It's a beautiful thing. So why the fuck would we think that self-love is a problem? In fact it's necessary.

And I also think that the more boundaried I become, the more outspoken I've become about my wants in my marriage or the things that have hurt me. And with my best friends, the more respect I've gotten and the more freedom I've given to them to advocate for their own needs. So I do think that there is a place where selfishness is bad, right?

Like where it really does because damage. But I think for most of us who are in this space, trying to love who we are, the bigger problem is giving ourselves permission to tend to self, to take care of yourself. And I think that self-care can be environmental. It can be who you're hanging out with. It can be physical, how you're taking care of your physical body.

It can be spiritual. How you're speaking to yourself, the energy that you allow. It's not always fucking bubble baths. But it's preservation of self it's care for oneself. And to me, I feel like if we need to call that selfish fine, but like I'm going to wear that all damn day.

Nancy: Yeah.

And it's care for oneself. Not because some podcasts. Personal development. People said, you need to have care for yourself, or because you read it on an article on Buzzfeed, but because this is what your body needs, or, this is what your mind needs. So many of my clients will come to me and say, oh I'm getting up early now because I read on Buzzfeed, that productivity means you get up early and I'm like, okay, but do you, are you more productive at that time? I don't care what the experts say or the study says, what do you need? And so in that high achieving, we sometimes warp some of these personal development messages and turn them into sheds.

Yes. Rather than checking them with ourselves to be like, wait a minute. Is this something I agree with?

Amy: Yes. Amen. Okay. So remember when I was talking about the stronger frame and the lesser frame, I tell this as my students too, I'm a strong fucking frame. So everything that comes out of my mouth sounds like it's the way that it is.

I need you. I need you to be empowered and discern. Okay. That's Amy's truth. That's Amy's perspective to go into the dressing room, try it on. Does it feel right for me? And then you have full autonomy and permission to either absorb or release and that personal empowerment. It is not academia. I, it is not something that you can do a worksheet.

Perfect. Yeah. It is completely contingent off of how you operate and how you function. Yeah. I completely agree with you on that. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay. So frequently when this is new, this idea of speaking up for yourself or speaking a need or et cetera, et cetera. I have found that the need has been gone for so long like we have ignored it for so long. A scenario that our husband doesn't help do the dishes, I'm making this up as I go. And so we want to speak up and be like, Hey. So then sometimes to get into them being either passive aggressive, or we as I call it a 10 reaction to a two situation, we over, we go overboard, how do we let that, I say the energy needs to be clear.

How do we let the energy of what we want to be saying world, to be clear and not get caught up in muddling the message because we're, we are engaging in the drama or passive aggressiveness or these other things that, that we don't want to be doing, but they just happen because they're the default..

Amy: That there's so much I can say on this, but the first thing is a lot of this comes down to your own awareness. Because one thing that we know when it comes to communication with other people is that people will not make change unless they feel understood. So if you come at your partner, like a bat outta hell telling him or her all the shit they're doing wrong, It is highly unlikely that they're going to go, you know what, babe, I'm going to totally work on that.

They're going to, they're going to do one of two things. They're either going to appease you to get you to shut up, or they're going to be combative and start screaming and yelling. And all of a sudden, all this shit's coming out that isn't even related to the dishwasher. So it's ineffective. So the first thing is to recognize.

What you're like, you're pissed offedness, right? So you come home from a long day where Dave work, you see just stacks of dishes in the sink that, we're not there the last time you were around and your blood starts boiling and you're like mother fucker, just getting so pissed.

So in those situations, you have to acknowledge that it is not time to address it. You do not address it when you are in that heightened emotional state, because there's some work that you have to do to figure out what you are going to say. So in those middle zone times, let's say your partner comes over to you and wants to hug you.

And you're pissed. You have to own that shit. You have to own that shit. And you have to say something like I'm finding myself really frustrated in the moment I need 30 minutes to decompress. Or. Absolutely want to hug you I'm in a prickly place. So our tendency is to make the other person wrong and to say oh, now you want to fucking hug.

Oh, like we want to make the other person wrong so that you have to acknowledge what emotional space you're in and then advocate for it. Say, I cannot be around you or I need 30 minutes or I need to decompress before I'm super connected. Then when you are processing, I usually tell people to look for the presenting issue and then look for the surface issue or the root issue.

Yeah. The presenting issue is the dishes. That's not what this is really about. It is what that behavior says to you and makes you feel that's the root issue. The root issue is likely something like I don't feel respected in this relationship. I feel taken advantage of. I don't feel seen, I don't feel heard.

I feel dismissed. I feel like there's a disconnect between value systems, whatever it is, but you have to get to the root of it because honey, it is never the dishes, right? It's never the shoes. It's never the blinds. It is what that represents to you and tells you about the relationship. But unless you get to that root issue, you're going to be yelling and screaming about dishes.

And that's not really what it's about. And it's also so much easier to dismiss somebody on logistic stuff. That just doesn't make sense. Why don't you just load it? You're always over there. We fight for what's right around logistics. It's far harder for you to dismiss someone when they come to you saying, I realize that I've never really been vocal about this before.

And for that, I really need to apologize because it, how would you ever know? But I'll be really honest with you. The. The issues that we've had around the dishes. I know I have not always handled myself well, and I've screamed and yelled at you, but I realize where some of that anger has come from. And I really want to share that with you because you've always been so receptive to the things that are on my mind.

So you have to own your shit, right? You have to say, I've never communicated this in an effective way because we feel so validated and vindicated. If we've said something, even if it's yelling and screaming, let me tell you right now that does not count. It does not count it's in one ear out the other. It sometimes even partners will do it just to piss you off if you're in one of those types of relationships.

So it does not count until you've had a really thoughtful, vulnerable exchange with somebody. So sitting down and saying, I realized why this has been so problematic to me. It's because I feel like there's an unequal distribution of labor around the house. I feel a sense of being taken advantage of. You can also honor their intention and say, I assume that is not at all what you want me to feel.

Assume positive intent. So ways in which to deliver that. Now that's so much harder to disregard and dismiss than if you were to talk about the surface issue of why can't you just do the dishes.. So there's some language around how to go about it, but to distill down what the tactics are, you have to cool off, do not address it while you're in the heat of that intensity.

You circle back and you own your shit and you come from a vulnerable place. That's one of the hardest skills for people to do, but it's far more likely that you will elicit more vulnerability in return. If you go in with defenses down, it's more likely that they'll mirror that, but to own your shit and say this, first of all, how you've communicated in the past.

I apologize for that. And I, there's no way you would know, because I always make a joke.

Nancy: Yeah. If you're a good people, pleaser, you've just been like, it's fine. It's fine. This isn't a big deal until it is

Amy: Sure I will do the dishes, right? Yeah. So I always say if you present it as a joke, expect it to be taken as a joke.

That's a sorry way to, or a pathetic way to express your needs. However, I will say, be compassionate with yourself because that has been the only skillset or tool that you've had until now. We're always just trying to get our needs met. We just have a faulty toolbox.

Nancy: Yes. Thank you for saying that, because I think that is the piece that a lot of people, we forget the idea of the compassionate that have a faulty toolbox. I love that because it is just I should have done better and I should have all of that beating ourselves.

Amy: Yeah. And you can do a whole declaring the do-over situation.

Let's say you get home, you get pissed, you scream and yell at your partner. Because that's your normal gut response. You take time to cool off and process, and then you circle back and you apologize for that. And then talk about the root issue. Here's where it's really coming from. And no matter what I'm feeling, it's not fair for me to speak to you like that.

Yeah, it's a yes. And because we feel so righteous, if you weren't such a fuck up, I wouldn't have to speak to you like, and that is never a recipe for thriving communication.

Nancy: Because I will say sometimes I'll say to my husband in that situation I'm like if he comes to give me a hug and I see the dishes, I'll say I'm mad about the dishes, but that's not what I'm mad about.

And I need some time to figure out what that is, as a way to, to acknowledge that he's picking up on something, but it isn't, that isn't it, but I need some time. And that's hard to say because the other person even to say, I need 30 minutes before I can, I need some time that is hard because there, the person's uncomfortable and what is a baby?

What do you need? What's the going on? What's the problem? And to hold that boundary sometimes.

Amy: It's hard because that's another people pleasing. One partner wants to talk it out and then you're not ready. You're going to do it a disservice. And one of the things that I do tell couples to do that, if you are aware that this is a dynamic that's happening in the relationship, have a code word or something that you say, I usually will tell people, come up with something that is a code word or a code phrase.

That's innocuous. Something like the Eagle flies at Dawn or flying monkeys have landed or something like that, where it can be code for, oh shit, she's pissed, but she doesn't quite know why. And doesn't want to take it out on me unnecessarily. That's the meaning behind the phrase. But where you have an agreement and then the other person understands to retreat and to give space.

And, but you have to talk about that in a very non heightened, emotional place where you can both establish the confines of what that would, that phrasing means for the two of you

Nancy: . And then make sure you have the agreement to circle back to actually talk about whatever it is. Because I know people will be like, that's fine now we're fine. Everything's fine

Amy: . Then it becomes the sweeping under the rug. So then it's got to be, and you can be funny with it. You can be like, are you ready to have an uncomfortable conversation about the flying monkey?

Yay, ready? Let's do it, and be fun with it. And so there's ways to break some of that stuff down, right?

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome. I like how you clarified that. Sometimes when we're in the personal development world, we it's easy for us to spout off. Here's what you should do and forgetting the uncomfortableness of actually doing that stuff.

And so I appreciate all your examples and metaphors where you really are breaking it down on. Helping people who are new to this, and it's super uncomfortable how to set those, to speak up and ask for what it is they need.

Amy: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of that too, because that's how my mind thinks.

And give me step-by-steps though. I can't just, oh, speak your truth. What the fuck does that mean? Exactly. You know what I mean? I really think that way, therefore, I teach that way as well. And I think. When it comes to learning how to do this. One of the things that I'll tell people is get it out on paper because we've all gone through anyone with anxiety has gone through playing that shit over and over again in your head.

And here's what I should have said. Okay. Write all that stuff down. And even if you are going into a conversation where let's say you are circling back with somebody, write it all out. If you want just like a straight up letter. And then here's what you say. You say, I know this sounds really silly that I wrote all of this down, but it's really important to me to get it right.

And I, I don't want to keep communicating with you the way I happen because it's not fair to you. So I'm just going to read my paper and my request is that you just hear me out and then I absolutely want to hear your thoughts as well. But my request is just let me get through it. And then we can discuss.

So I tell people that all the time, because we think, because when we don't have that, we get derailed, we get defensive, we get into all of our old patterns. So there's no shame in that. And just saying, I really wanted to get it right this time. And it was important to me to make sure I spelled this out in a way that was fair to you.

Yeah. And yeah,

Nancy: because I think a lot of times I'll talk with I was talking with a client today who had said her husband had said something pretty benign and her monger, picked it up and was it just hit her so deep as a deep wound of shame.

And she was up all night, rehashing it. And so we talked through like how she could talk to him. And so a lot of times in your code phrase, I'll say I'll say sometimes it's helpful to be like, I'll say to my husband, oh, my monger is going crazy today. And she's telling me that you're thinking.

Yes. And he can be like, yeah, no. And so having those ways of being able to talk about it in a owning, owning your shit, as you say, but also a less intense way of discussing it.

Amy: Okay. Yeah. I use a tool with my students around that has a lot to do with what we're making up.

So essentially all you do is you start looking at what are the facts of the situation, what was said, and then what journey did I take? Where I made? In fact, I have a similar anecdote where my, we were renovating part of our house in California, before we moved here to North Carolina. And we, my husband had a bunch of the stuff that was out on the patio. He had moved it into the living room, which is where I did my workouts. And so he said to me, he said, Hey, are you still doing your workouts? And I was like, oh no, but that was the only phrase he said.,

So my mind went, oh my gosh, he's not attracted to me to work out. He wants to meet blah, blah, blah. And so I said in those moments, really similar to what you said is I said, can I just tell you where my head went? If they don't know inner critic or they don't know, you can say things like, can I tell you what I just made up in my mind?

Or can I tell you how that landed? Or can I tell you my interpretation of that or where I just went in my head. I got to just get this out. And so I did. And he was like, oh no, not at all. I was just concerned that I had all my shit in the living room and you weren't going to have any room. So not only was it not malicious, it was actually really thoughtful.

I had made up was so fantastic because then what happens is when we don't take that step of here's where I just went in my head or here's what my Monger just said when we don't do that, we start looking for more evidence to support that story. So if he, if we would have been watching TV, let's say, and he saw somebody who was like, oh wow, she's really attractive.

My, I would have gotten this totally innocuous. Normally I would've gone. Oh, he thinks I'm gross. And you know that I need to exercise more and I'm lazy and he's attracted to everybody else. And I would just start stockpiling. And then, and none of it actually being true right now, there are some times when.

You say, here's where I went and they go, yeah, I do feel that way. And then you've got a totally different thing to with, but at least you're not swimming around with a bunch of fictitious stories. You're getting to the root of it and you're figuring out what you're dealing with instead of not being able to sleep because you're not sure.

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's amazing. Some of the things where my brain can go, oh, not just me, I'm saying everyone. And my partner's like, how did you get there? Like that? And so easily…

Wow, it wasn’t pretty. And then, because I had one recently, I was down, I cooked dinner and then I went down where I said, dinner is ready.

Then I ran downstairs to swap the laundry and I'm downstairs, switching from the dryer. And I'm like, you've got to get up there and he's going to be really mad at you. If you don't get up there because you said dinner was ready and now you're downstairs doing the laundry and you're supposed to be eating dinner with him and he comes down and I'd say that, I'm like, this is the crazy thing going on in my head.

And he said, how awful do you think I am? That I'm upstairs going come on, bitch, get your dress up here. We're supposed to be eating dinner and what you're doing, my laundry downstairs. You're so ridiculous. Yeah. And I didn't realize that was helpful for me to say oh yeah, this is hurtful to him.

Like that I'm that I go there instead of, and not be like, wait, this is your husband who loves you. He's not thinking you're an irresponsible bitch, because you're doing the laundry.

Amy: And I find that so much of the time people will tell me. And, my students or clients will say, I'm so worried that he'll think this or that she'll think that, and I'm like, then stay that, you know what?

It is my deepest fear that I come across like this or that you think that I don't value you or that I don't care about you, but here. So I was really apprehensive even bringing this to you, but I want our relationship to be one of honesty and I want the same in return. So here's my. Fill in the blank, but so much can be rectified by just telling a person you have something to say, and you're scared to say it.

Yes. You love them so much because you value them so much because you don't want to because any pain or hurt. Just say that.

Nancy: Exactly. Okay. I won't keep you anymore, Amy. I could talk to you for hours. So thank you so much for taking your time to come and talk about people pleasing. This was so helpful and incredible.

Amy: It was my pleasure. I could talk to you forever, too.

Nancy: I love the way Amy Smith teaches these concepts. I love thinking in metaphors and the house metaphor she shared has been so helpful. I sometimes struggle with hooking myself worth to the things that happen to me, both the successes and the struggles.

So recognizing that I can feel good about a win in my life and that doesn't change the value of my house. This also has been playing out lately with all the 2020 has brought, I've been feeling some sadness and hopelessness and recognizing that those feelings, they also don't change the value of my house and they aren't something I need to push away because they too are part of my house.

And then when my mother gets too loud and she starts slamming me with something completely irrational, I can use this metaphor to say, is this something I want to bring into my head? Is this serving me and nine times out of 10, it isn't. And then when I look a little deeper, it's probably rooted in a feeling that I don't want to do within that moment.

The house metaphor has allowed me to be a really good caretaker of my self loyalty, and I hope it does the same for you.

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Episode 153: How the Conventional Happiness Formula Keeps Us Stuck

In this episode, I’m talking with Kim Strobel a happiness and empowerment coach about the conventional happiness formula.

Frequently we will ask ourselves—why am I unhappy?

But the key component is the question underneath the question. 

What is making you unhappy? 

Or better yet, how would you know if you were happy? 

A friend, former guest, and storytelling expert, Hillary Rea, shared that it might come down to asking a more beautiful question—a question that helps you get to the heart of the question to uncover the answer. Often, Hillary uses the phrase—ask a more beautiful question—to prompt her to get to the heart of an issue. 

Throughout my own experiences, I’ve found that the beautiful question is usually underneath the question that’s important and so today’s episode is a study into the question underneath the question concept.

I’m talking with Kim Strobel, a happiness and empowerment coach and the founder of Strobel Education. As a leadership consultant and happiness coach, Kim helps businesses, organizations, and high-achievers prioritize their health and well-being so they can reach new levels in their business and their life. And as a result, businesses and organizations take massive actions and create positive change in every area.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The conventional happiness formula and how it keeps us stuck

• Adding gratitude and affirmations into your life in a helpful way (you know I have some opinions about these 2 concepts so Kim and I break it down for you!)

• How Kim’s panic disorder affected her life, how she overcame it, and what happened when it reared its ugly head again

• How the process of learning to live with her panic disorder helped bring her happiness

Resources mentioned:

• www.KimStrobel.com

• www.StrobelEducation.com

• The She Finds Joy Podcast

• She Finds Joy on Facebook

• Follow Kim on Instagram

• Follow Kim on Twitter

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Kim: What happens is you are so focused and you've tied your happiness to that goal, that you're letting it still, all the happiness that is available to you right now. So even when things are really tough, I tell people, find your happy in the now while also reaching for your big, bold vision.

Nancy:: Ask a more beautiful question.

Recently, a friend and former guests, Hillary Rea shared that idea with me. It's from a David White quote. “Solace is the art of asking the beautiful question of ourselves, of our world or of one another in fiercely difficult and beautiful moments” said, David. From his book Constellations. I like to think of it as the question underneath the question that is important.

And Hillary uses the phrase to ask a more beautiful question to prompt herself, to get to the heart of the issue frequently. We will ask ourselves, why am I unhappy? But the key component is the question underneath the question. What is making you unhappy? Or better. What would you do, if you were happy? Today's podcast episode is a study in the question underneath the question concept,

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. Nancy: Jane Smith.

On today's episode, I'm talking with Kim Strobel, a happiness and empowerment coach and the founder of Strobel Education.

The topic of our conversation and the starting point was the question, what is the conventional happiness formula and how does it keep us stuck? And Kim and I discussed that and then there's a wonderful juicy conversation. But for me, the meat of the interview is the question beneath the question, which came out through our discussion, which is how can Kim continue to be happy when she deals with panic disorder?

How does she live with something so debilitating and surprising when you meet Kim, you will see what I mean and how the process of learning to live is what helped bring her real happiness, Kim and I talk about the conventional happiness formula and how it keeps us stuck adding gratitude and affirmations into your life in a helpful way.

And I have some opinions about these two concepts. So Kim and I break it down for you. Kim's panic disorder and how it affected her life, how she overcame it and what happened when it reared its ugly head.

Nancy:: Kim. I am so excited to have you here today to chat with you.

Kim: Thank you. I'm honored to be here with you.

Nancy:: So we're just going to dive right in. S I was so intrigued when you reached out to me to via email and you were talking about the conventional happiness for me. Such a great phrase and why it keeps us stuck. Tell me more about that

Kim: The traditional formula for happiness, that we've all been fed and has been ingrained in us from previous generations and.

We see it all around us from social media to the way our neighbors are living. But the conventional formula for happiness is basically work really hard in school. Go to college, choose a degree where you make a lot of money. Definitely don't choose teaching because you're not going to make a lot of money (being former teacher) get out into the world, get a job.

Work really hard climb the corporate ladder, get a better job working, even harder, get an even better job, make more money. And then eventually you can have the nice cars and you can have the nice, big, beautiful home. And once you've been able to accomplish all of these things and work your way up the ladder on the other side of that, you have achieved.

You have finally gotten there. And what we now know from Sean Acres course, positive psychology and very vetted research from Harvard university, as well as research from Samuel Luber Misskey and and also Martin Seligman from the University of Pennsylvania is the formula for happiness is broken.

And in fact, It's completely backwards. What we now know is that when you bring your happiness to the forefront, first, it changes every single outcome in your life. So if you want to create more abundance in your life, don't chase the abundance first. Chase your happiness create your happiness, puts your well-being at the forefront first because when you have a mind at positive, you're able to come up with creative solutions to problems you couldn't come up with before or solutions.

When your brain is at positive, you're able to have a different perspective and see other opportunities that before you could not see. And so this whole idea of, Hey, our happiness m y wellbeing needs to be at the forefront first. That is a game changer.

Nancy:: So when you say I like, I love that you're saying my wellbeing and happiness using those words together, because happiness is a loaded term for sure.

What would you say is the definition of happiness in this. Scenario,

Kim: In the broken formula scenario or in both, I think happiness is my wife and I live in this nice, really big home. And we drive really nice vehicles and we both make a lot of money and we are high society folks, so to speak.

And because of all of that I am going to feel this great sense of fulfillment and happiness inside of me. And what we actually know is. Like we want to have, it's important to have big, bold visions for our life. And I would be the first to tell you Nancy:. I live in a big, beautiful home and I love it and I'm super thankful for it.

But I also know that if I lived in a thousand square foot home, My longterm happiness would not be affected by the size of my home. And so if I could just dive into the happiness research, this might be a good time to do that so that we can put these things into perspective..

What we know is that every one of us. We all have, what's called a default happiness level. So maybe my default happiness level is here. And maybe your default happiness level is a little bit higher than mine. So what happens is you and I go out and we buy a new purse or a new pair of shoes, or we get a new car or we purchase a new home or we get a new job.

And our happiness level does elevate, but it elevates for a very short time. What happens is it comes right back to default after a period of time. Yes, I'm walking around with my new Kate spade purse. It just came in the mail. I love it. I'm excited. I'm happy. Two days later, I'm back to default.

Or whatever it might be. Now what's interesting about the brain research and hard to wrap our mind around is that we also know this to be true. Of enduring really terrible things in our life. We know that you can encounter tragedy, loss, grief, disease, divorce, all of these things, and that our happiness level will drop.

But the brain has this kind of uncanny ability to reset itself after a period of time. And I have trouble wrapping my head around that because I'm not going to lie. Something's Nancy: I think could happen to me. And I feel like I would never get my happiness back, but if we, if I pose that question to people who are listening, I'm going to guess that we can all come up.

A handful of people who have had terrible atrocities done to them. And somehow they go on to live this very joyful, meaningful life. And so what we know from the brain research is that most of the time, our brain will return to default after a period of time. So now the question becomes where's our happiness come from where's our default from.

So I want you to picture your happiness as a pie chart. And so what we know is that 50% of your long-term happiness is genetic. It comes from your mom or your dad, or a mixture of both. Sometimes when I tell people this, they completely hang their heads

There is a genetic tendency to this. Like some of us were born into this world or we like lolly gap. The world is all bright and shiny and yeah we get a little stressed sometimes. But for the most part, we just constantly see the good in the world. And then there's others of us who have to work harder at it. Our brain is programmed more towards the negative.

And we work with people. We have friends like this, we have the negative Nellie, so to speak that have to work harder at being positive. And then we have the bright, shiny uniforms that just seem to automatically be able to do it.

Kim: If 50% is genetic.

Let me tell you a shocking statistic of that pie chart. Only about 10% of your long-term happiness comes from your external circumstances. So here's an external circumstance. What kind of car? What kind of home you live in, what kind of money you make? If you're married, single, divorced, or widowed.

If you have kids, if you don't have kids, if you need to lose 20 pounds or you need to lose 60 pounds, those are all external circumstances, but we let those external circumstances eat up way more of that pie than 10%. But the brain research will tell you the research is very strong. That those things only account for about 10%, but we have a mistaken belief we say to ourselves, when I can make this kind of money, I'll finally be happy when I can lose the 20 pounds.

I’ll finally be happy when I can find a partner that truly loves me all. Be happy. What's happening is your letting those external circumstances eat up way more of the pie and that's on you. My friend. And that's the hardcore truth of it. I know I do it sometimes. There's something that happens and three weeks later I'm still ruminating on it. And that's me saying, I'm letting this steal way more than 10% of the pie and it's time for me to stop letting it steal more than 10% of the pie. Now I want to make a clarification, Nancy:, because yeah. If your spouse, all of a sudden leaves you, you are going to be unhappy. It, it might take you six months or a year or two years, but the problem is it four and five and six years later, you're still unhappy because your husband left you.

That's on you, my friend, because you have you have to do the work right. And so I think that's, when we're thinking about the conventional formula, we put all of our eggs over here saying if I can achieve this, I can accomplish this. If I can simply buy this bigger home, it will bring my family so much more happiness.

And. I know this research I've lived here for 20 years and I still think that having the lake house is going to bring me more happiness.

Nancy:: It might bring you more joy.

Kim: Yeah! I can justify it to know end. And my husband, he's always really good. And he's Kim, you preach this happiness research to people, but then you tell me why you have 78 pairs of shoes in our class. (laughter)

I am anomaly to the research (Laughter) those shoes bring me more than 10% happiness,

Nancy:: but the cool thing about it, that it, is the idea that there's a lot of cool things about that research, but the cool thing about it is a, the back to the returning to default, I think that There to me, it takes off some of the pressure that that even when, and I can attest that, like after my dad died and I was like, I can't imagine a life without him in it.

And it was completely devastating to me. And I was just thinking this the other day as they always say, you never. Stop grieving, but it just, takes on a different form. And it has, like we have new memories with we're dad isn't there and, we've returned to somewhat of that homeostasis spot you were talking about.

And I think that sometimes we try to hold on so tight to the happiness that I need to be happy all the time, or I need to be. Returning to this certain spot that may not even be our default.. And then if it and we may be going through something traumatic where we just can't attain that happiness and that's okay.

Yeah.

Kim: I feel like we have created a culture where we have misconstrued this idea of positivity and yeah. It's like a culture of positivity. So we tell people. If they complain where like now listen, just focus on the positive, just focus on your blessings. Just be positive. And that does not work because what we're saying is, Hey, you're not allowed to have any negative feelings, just turn it off and switch to positive things.

And let me just tell you that does not work. We have to feel the negative feelings, but we also have to crawl out of the gutter a lot quicker if we're still there. Seven, seven days later. I want to work towards crawling out of the gutter, but like we have to be allowed to have these feelings. My mom who loves me dearly, I was having a stressful moment a few months ago and I was getting riled up and she goes, she said, wow, you are the happiness coach.

Mary Jo does not mean I'm not allowed to have negative feelings. Like sunshine, unicorns and butterflies. I'm a practitioner of happiness.

Nancy:: Yes. Yeah. That's an impossible standard that you're going to be happy all the time, which is, that's what I felt when you were explaining the defaults like, oh, some of this is just how I'm wired.

Yeah.

Kim: There are things we can do to change that. And we'll talk about that, but not beating ourselves up so much. The other thing that plays into this is this term called hedonic adaptation. And the brain is this very complex. Part of our body that comes from archaic times and the brain has the ability to adapt quickly to new circumstances in order to protect us and keep us out of danger.

That's why, back in the caveman days, our brains we're able to adapt quickly to harsh conditions so that we could endure that while we still have hedonic adaptation that goes on today. So for example, if it's 17 degrees outside and you're freezing, freezing, and you walk in, you know how good the fire feels at first. You will sit by the fireplace and it's so good. And it's so warm. And then after three minutes, you're like, okay, I'm done with it. That's hedonic adaptation. It's the same reason that people can walk in your house and they go, do you smell that? And you're like, I don't smell it hedonic adaptation.

So hedonic adaptation plays itself out in you get the new home and it feels really good for a few months. And then you get used to. And then you need an even bigger home to be happier, or you need to make more money to be happier. I'll be the first to tell you. I love beautiful things. I love my big, beautiful home.

I pull in the driveway and I have a lot of gratitude. So that's one of the ways that I keep it from getting stagnant is I'm constantly appreciating the flexibility and the freedom. And I have nothing against people acquiring wealth. I am a woman who's working to acquire wealth, but not because I think the big house brings me longterm happiness, but because of the other things that it can do for me, like freedom and flexibility, and to support causes that are endearing to my heart.

And so I don't want your audience to think, like we shouldn't want money or we shouldn't buy the big home. That's not it at all. Just don't count on those things to be super fulfilling.

Nancy:: And it's the same reason for like why when you go on vacation and you're like sitting there and, and then the fifth day of sitting there, you don't respond to it.

You're just like, ah, here we are by the ocean. And the first day you get there, you're like, this is amazing. I'm going to be here all the time, and then we, no matter how much you try to soak it in you can't because of the hedonic adaptation.

Kim: Yeah. And so we have to stop chasing the wrong things that are actually.

Taking so much of our happiness wellbeing and fulfillment away from us because we have attached happiness to this desired outcome. And I'm going to talk to you about that in a minute, but I think before I do that, I better explain the other 40% of the right.

Nancy:: Yes. Before you do that, though, I wanted to give an example of that.

That came up for me years ago before I was, I got married later. So I was in my late thirties when I got married and for much of mine. Late twenties, early thirties. It was, my mantra was if only I could find someone, if only I could find someone, everything will be happy and anything that went wrong, I blamed it on that.

No matter what was wrong, if I was overweight, if I was feeling crappy, it was just because I didn't have a partner. So I find my amazing husband. We get married we're in our first year of marriage and. I'm driving somewhere and something comes up where I'm not feeling happy and I'm, my monger steps in to beat me up.

And I thought if only I had a spouse and I was like, no, you have that is no longer the excuse anymore that is out the window. And it just really was amazing to me to see how we get these messages that we just keep on repeating. Even when they're not true anymore. And it was holding me back, I have said so many times.

I wish I could go back to that 30 year old and just say, dude, it'll be fine. Stop worrying about it.

Kim: Yeah, no, because you were letting It still the happiness that was available to you right now in the now. So we're going to go ahead and go there because we'll have to come back to the pie chart, because what you're talking about is I always tell people there's two things that, that you need, want to have big, bold dreams. I want to serve a hundred coaching clients next year, and I want my husband and I to buy a lake home. And I want to have an amazing African experience with my son on a trip. I have all of these visions and goals, but what happens is when you tie your happiness to the achievement of that goal, we play the.

If I find a partner, I'll be happy. That's what you were doing, if I lose 30 pounds, I'll be happy. If I can get this breast in, whatever, I'll be happy if I can get these wrinkles taken care of, I'll be happy. So what happens is you are so focused and you've tied your happiness to that goal, that you're letting it still, all the happiness that is available to you right now.

So even when things are really tough, I tell people. Find your happy in the now while also reaching for your big, bold vision. And sometimes I have to look around and go, wow. The only thing I can come up with right now is I'm happy. I took a breath and I'm happy the grass is green, so be real careful. And I do this too, but be careful of tying your happiness level to the outcome of a goal that you have.

Nancy:: As you said, we've been trained to do that. That's just like an unconscious thing that we get stuck in and really trying to build awareness of that, to recognize.

I'm still going to be me when I'm there.

Kim: Yeah. Hedonic adaptation plays out there. Like personally for me, I was like, oh, when I can finally charge $5,000 for my one hour keynote, I will know I have arrived now the 5,000 gain. And then next year it was like, Ooh, now I need 6,000, 8,000 when I, now I'm working on it.

And so it's again, Understanding that once you do reach your goal, you're just going to create another goal. And you're going to say now I need this to be happy. So just understanding that, but when we're looking at the pie chart and 50% is genetics of your long-term happiness, 10% is your external circumstances.

That leaves 40% of the pie left. And what I love Nancy: is that every human being, regardless of their genetics, regardless of their external circumstances, we all have the ability to increase our happiness levels by up to 40%. So who doesn't want to do that? Exactly. So this would be a whole training day for me to teach you all of these.

I want your audience to walk away with one of the top five ways they can increase their baseline happiness. Okay. So one of the top ways, and it's a very simple practice. It takes two minutes a day, and I promise you, it is a game changer and it's simply called gratitude.

Here's what we know. So I'm going to go back to the human brain in a minute. The brain has what's called the reptilian part of the brain. And the reptilian part of the brain is the part of the brain that was available back in the caveman days. And so the reptilian part of the brain's function was to constantly scan it's environment.

For everything negative in order to protect itself so that people in the archaic age had to scan for weather patterns and dark clouds and clans coming in, who might murder them and the food shortage and they have to pay attention to danger all of the time. And that's what kept them safe.

The issue is that in to days, age in 2020, We still have the reptilian part of the brain, even though we don't need it in that capacity. So the research says that the average human being has 70,000 thoughts a day. Wow. And the reason

Nancy:: I can believe that I'm like, that might be a little low. (laughter)

Kim: If you are really stressed you have 120,000 or so

Wow. Yeah. So we also know that the average human being for them, 80% of their thoughts are negative. So that if we take the 70,000, what we're saying is that most of them. If we're the average human being, most of us are having 56,000 negative thoughts in one day. And if you're like, oh, not me. Let me tell you a sister friend, let me take you back to this morning when your alarm went off.

The first thing you said is I didn't get enough sleep. And then you browsed to yourself about how bad your back hurt. And then you got up out of bed and you said, oh my gosh, I don't want to go to work to get today. And then you walk to the bathroom and your knees were hurting. And then you looked in the mirror and you had a fever blister, and then you put your pants on and thought how your belly was like, this happens. This is natural. It is the reptilian part of the brain. So what we know we have to do is we have to retrain the brain. And gratitude is one of the top ways you can do that. And you only need to write down three different things every day that you are thankful for 21 days.

And what we know happens is you have, what's called these neural feedback loops in your brain. So they're like roads and you have hundreds and thousands of roads running through your brain. These are thought processes. You had a road Nancy: that said I'm not happy because I don't have a spouse. And you have that road so deeply ingrained that it even popped up when you did have a spouse.

And so whatever road is traveled the most is the one that gets the deepest ruts in your brain. And so in order to create a new road, if we begin a gratitude practice, and that means you actually physically write down three things every day, that you're thankful for. And after 21 days, you actually begin to create a new neural feedback loop in your brain.

And so of course we want you to continue this practice above and beyond the 21 days, but that's how long it takes to get the new loop running. And what happens is the lens through which you view the world begins to change because now all of a sudden, every thing that is right with the world is starting to pop out more.

When I'm taking a run and a beautiful leaf is falling from a tree. I'm noticing it now where, before I didn't and these don't have to be profound gratitudes, they don't have to be big. And we actually, if your audience wants that, I think I did. I sent you the gratitude tracker.

So I actually have a product. Learning and gratitude practices hard for people at first. And I have a little freebie download if you want it. That actually helps them start to think about where they can look for gratitude in their life. So it could be in nature, it could be within their family.

And then we have a 21 day gratitude tracker so that they can begin to write their three things down every single day. So if you think your audience would benefit from that

Nancy:: we'll stick that in the show notes, for sure. Okay. So as people who have listened to my listeners know I have some I always have some caveats when it comes to gratitude because.

I feel like sometimes we, and I'm sure you do too. So I'm interested on your take on this. I'm sometimes we can, and I've been guilty of this as well. And I know my clients are of switching gratitude to positive thinking. And they use it as a way to ignore the negatives in their life. So I want you to talk on that a little bit because people have heard me talk about, I want to hear your take on that.

Kim: I gut check everything. Like I'm somebody who feels how things feel in my body. And so I actually know what you're talking about. So I don't do that normally, but I will say there's been a time or two that I have found myself writing something that I wish was true. Okay. But there's like a cognitive dissonance in me when I do that, because it's actually not a feeling it's not a good feeling of lacking.

Or of wishing it was like that. And so it's really going back to your integrity and saying, Hey, I have to write things that feel true to me. Now, if we want to write affirmations, that's a whole totally different thing. We can talk on that at some point too, cause I'm really a big believer in those, but these need to be things that spark joy right now in your heart.

And they need to feel true and genuine. It can be really small things. I have roses blooming outside my window. My house cleaner came today and cleaned the floor. I got to work outside on my deck today. My dogs were playing my fingers in there fur. We don't have to come up with big, positive, or like big things.

Things need to be true of what our brain actually sees views feels and understands.

Nancy:: Yes. Thank you. I love that. I love that because I always talk about the specificity and the and the truth, the integrity piece. I, I don't know. That's such a powerful thing, because I did a presentation once where I talked about gratitude and how we, and my message of sometimes if we're we can bastardize it.

And and a woman came up to me and she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she was practicing gratitude. So she just kept saying, at least I don't have this. And so many people have it worse than me and I should be grateful. And she started with tears in her eyes was saying, this is the first time I've really.

It faced the breast cancer and that's where gratitude we can. It pulls us. It can pull us into this wishful thinking, or I should be, we use it as a way to beat ourselves up rather than the beautiful way you're talking about it. The specificity and the retraining of the brain and

Kim: like what you were teaching, which is you're allowed to feel your feelings. Yeah. And that's exactly around call this. We do this crazy thing called comparative suffering, and we say I'm not allowed to feel bad or sad about this thing here, because it's small compared to this. So I'm not allowed to have my feelings. Yeah.

Yeah. So we have to stop doing that. Like pain is pain. Suffering is suffering hard as hard and you, and I don't have to compare them to be allowed to feel them. Huh.

Nancy:: And so that's where I think what you're speaking of is the process of mindfully looking at your life and reprogramming those neural pathways and being able to see a new perspective in how your life is going, as opposed to sometimes gratitude is taught.

And this is what I rail against the idea of, if you're having a negative thought, be grateful. You can always find something to be grateful about. So find something to be grateful about, to pull yourself out of that negative thought. Instead of being both can be true. I can be, you can be super mad at your husband right now and angry about something and enjoying the beautiful flowers.

Kim: Yeah. Yeah, you're making me laugh because sometimes I'm a little bit like squirrel off of that movie up and made me laugh because I'm thinking about my affirmations and affirmations are very different than gratitude. So like, when I am frustrated with my husband, I am not going to be like, I am so thankful for my super caring husband yelling like that.

Like one of my affirmations and I kind of giggle, like one of my affirmations that I write every day is I am an exceptional wife, too. But even then, if I'm like ticked at him, i, out of integrity have to write in parentheses, even though this is going to be really hard today (laughter)

Nancy:: I love that. I love that. Yes. I think that is because I do think affirmations can sometimes pull us out of integrity.

Kim: I totally agree.

Nancy:: So talk to me about affirmations. I have I haven't, I want to hear it because you love them. I have a negative response to affirmations for that reason that you just said.

So tell me, tell us about affirmations because you may change my mind.

Kim: No I really I teach the law of attraction. I in my coaching program and I teach that whatever you focus on grows and that you have the ability to streamline your thoughts and reach a certain vibrational level where you begin attracting.

Other things that are of the same vibrational level. So for example I always tell people before I launched my business, I told myself three years before I want to become a motivational speaker and I had never spoken on a stage. I was certainly not a motivational speaker, but for every run that I took for 30 years, or for three years, I ran 30 miles a week.

I. Saw myself on the stage. I saw the people in the crowd. I saw the change happening. I saw them getting results. I saw them needing to hear my message. I saw me being of service. And I always tell people I saw and felt the vision of it. And because of that, I created an inner belief. In myself that this would happen.

And within one year of launching my business, I became a nationally recognized speaker. So what I know Nancy: is that our thoughts create our beliefs about ourselves. So if I'm constantly having thoughts of and I'm going to give you guys an example of this, so your thoughts create your beliefs, create your action.

Your actions create your habits and your habits create your reality. So for example, I had, I'm a runner. I run all these miles, like 35 miles a week. I bike 30 miles a week. I do all of this stuff, but like I am the girl who ate 4 hostess cupcakes. Every single night at 10:00 PM. From the time I was 20, till two years ago, 44.

So like I have had this inner belief that I am never going to be able to eat healthy. All of my friends can eat healthy. All of my friends had some kind of stupid app and they journaled and they kept their food calories. I downloaded the app and within two hours and hit my limit. So I deleted that all something is wrong with you.

Everybody else can do this. Kim is a 44 year old woman who still eats tons of sugar every day. I am flawed. I am broken, I can't do this. I have no willpower. So the way that played out is that became an inner belief. That was an inner belief that Kim simply did not have what it took. And so my thoughts created my belief and my belief created my actions, which meant every night at 10 o'clock.

I would go get my hostess cupcakes out and pour my milk. Yeah, that was a habit. My body mind was trained to do that, to go do that. And it created the reality, which is Kim is still not a healthy eater. She's still, and so what I had to do was first of all, I had to quit beating myself up so much, that I couldn't lie to myself. So I couldn't go around being like. Kim's a healthy eater. I'm a healthy eater. I'm a healthy eater. I couldn't write an affirmation. That was like, I'm a healthy eater. I'm a health cause. That's right.

Nancy:: And that is where many of them go wrong. Yes. Yeah. That has been great clarification

Kim: because they don't really believe it.

They don't because it's a total lie. So like I couldn't write in my affirmation journal every day. I am a healthy eater. Cause I'm like bullshit right here. I added one teeny tiny word. I'm not a healthy eater yet, but I'm working on it. So like my affirmations, what I know is that the more you say something to yourself, And the more you can envision it.

And the more you can attach emotion and feel that inner shift happening, then you have the ability to really create miracles in your life. So I'm not going to lie. One of my affirmations right now is I am a New York times best selling author, and that's a big goal i. And I have major stuckness around it because every time I go to write my book, I scare myself right out of it.

But there is something even deeper inside of me that does feel like this is book is supposed to come to fruition. And so I, I have 12 affirmations that I write every single day and I write the same ones over and I don't just write them, but I see them on my vision board. I envision them on my run.

When I am in an argument with my husband over something and I wrote, I am an exceptional wife today, it does sometimes make me think, how can I show up for him? Exceptional. Even though he seems being a shit right. Or whatever. My husband is an amazing man. He really is. Pretend like he's not, but he is pretty exceptional.

Nancy:: So so take the New York times one, for example, does that. Limit you in some ways. And this is a pure curiosity question, because does that limit you from doing it? Because until you, till you get to the point where it's a New York times, then you're not going to take the steps to do it. So walk me through that.

Kim: I guess for me, I, it, I don't have to be like, I would my biggest goal is to be a New York times. Best-selling author, but honestly, I just want to write my book and get my ideas out there. But my biggest vision that I hold for that, because I guess I believe in gaudy goals so if I fail, I'm going to fell a lot higher than I would without the gaudy goal.

That being said, your affirmation still needs to, if you somewhat need to believe in it, you have to have that resonance of, I don't know how it's going to happen. I don't have to work out all of the details. I just have to train my thoughts, action, effort and energy towards this goal, but also not get so tied up on it that I can't surrender some of it.

Nancy:: Right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, but you can vision that. The difference is you can envision the New York times thing and that feels doable. It feels doable

Kim: . And it doesn't feel like a game changer if I never did.. I'm not going to be less happy if I don't achieve that, that I'm reaching for it because that idea and that dream is birthed in my soul in some form or fashion.

Nancy:: And that's in knowing yourself and knowing that integrity to be able to pull that forth and just cause that goal to me, I like that's I should, if I want to write a book, it needs to be a New York times bestseller. I need to aim high. What you're saying is no, I really. Want this this is important to me.

Kim: Right. And again, it can manifest in different ways. I just, it feels good for me to see it that way. It feels good for me to look on my vision board and see like a book that I put up there. And then the little New York times bestselling author, like I, for whatever reason, feel like what I have to teach and say needs to be bad.

Yeah. Got it. This idea of oh, I'm going to ride on my ceiling. I will make $10 million right here. It's okay. That's like crazy shit, right?

Nancy:: Yes. Yeah. It's way more nuanced. And it also then is, as I'm sure in, you would teach is then you're taking action. Towards doing that.

It's not just throwing it up there and thinking about it on your run, but

Kim: I'm going to bring up my mom, Mary Jo, again, she was like, Kim, you've been using vision boards for 20 years and they work, I see them working like, can you teach me how to make a vision board? So Mary Jo and I sat down and she made a vision board and three months later.

Stepped into the house and said none of that's working, Kim, none of those things are coming true. And I'm like, really? So what have you been doing? Action-wise to work, like manifest, like you cannot just have a desire. You have to have action that backs up your desire. So I'm at the slap a pretty picture on a vision board or a pretty little quote and say, oh, I'm just slap it up there.

And it's magically going to happen. Yeah. There's intention. There's action. There's dream building, all of this stuff goes in to the manifestation of that particular bowl or level of achievement or core desired feeling that you want to feel. I want to write that book because I feel like I have.

Stories to tell that people need to hear. So they don't feel so alone. And you can remember Nancy:, I'm the girl who struggled for years from panic disorder, right? Young adult couldn't walk to my mailbox, couldn't drive my car to Walmart. Couldn't walk into Walmart. Heck I had a relapse two years ago and I went back to some of that, but I'm also the bad-ass that steps on a stage with 2000 people.

And I'm allowed to be both of those.

Nancy:: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I forgot about the panic because where everything, it's not just the one or the other,

Kim: I think, for your listeners to be listening to me and this is what happens to me when I step on a stage and I'm in the $500 dress and I'm in the Hills and the makeup, and I've got this contagious energy for life.

And I can just see the people's faces. They're thinking. This woman has it together. And I haven't feel like your listeners could be thinking like this woman is a total.. This woman, two years ago had the worst relapse in 20 years of panic disorder and struggled to leave her house again.

And so understanding that we can have. Both sides that we don't have to beat ourselves up to. I can be, to be honest, I am both. I am Kim who struggles sometimes and has some issues that other people don't have. And I am Kim, who is this, motivational speaker who has this amazing life. But I also have shitty things in my life too.

It's just important for people to hear that. Cause they can hear the voice behind the microphone and think this woman must have it all together.

Nancy:: totally. And I appreciate that's so true because I think that I, everything you're talking about, I think we really want everything to be easy and simple.

And it's, I'm just going to write, I'm going to do my vision board. I'm going to pull it up out there on the wall and I'm going to do my gratitude practice. Thing's going to be great and forget about the integrity piece. We forget about checking in with the self loyalty and the self-love. And does this fit with me?

Is this serve me moving forward and how am I going to go after this with little tiny baby steps? It's not like someone's going to call you tomorrow. They may, we never know, but they're going to call you tomorrow and be like, Hey, I'm a publisher. Let's do your big. Vision.

Kim: I always feel like I have to justify, like why I'm a happiness coach, because some people do they think oh, she must be full of sunshine, glitter and unicorns.

And I'm like, no, you know why I'm a happiness coach because I suffered greatly for years in my life. I went through extreme trauma and darkness and out of all of that, I birthed the happiness coach. She, as a result, From the trauma that I went through and how I now want to help others not have to endure the darkness for as long as I did.

Nancy:: So I know this is probably a whole other episode, but I just, if you can give, this is going to be hard question. How did you after the relapse with the panic disorder, how did regroup?

Kim: Oh my goodness. So to go back, like I started, I was always an anxious little girl. And then like in high school I started having.

Really traumatic episodes. And we didn't know what they were. I would feel like I was going to faint. I would have feelings of unreality. I had disassociated I didn't know who I was, but I did know who I was. My body trembled. I was sweating, shaking. And so for about seven years, this went undiagnosed because back in the eighties, we didn't know what anxiety disorders were.

And so I was having I had full blown panic disorder with a war phobia that didn't get diagnosed until. I want to say 23 or 24 years old. Wow. So I finally get a diagnosis. I get cognitive behavioral therapy from a therapist. I get on Zoloft, which I will tell you. I still take today and my life got a lot easier and I dove into the self-help world and I started like creating my life from the inside out.

And let me tell you. I am a worker bee when it comes to my life and personal growth, like I will work really hard and I will do the hard stuff to re-emerge as a better version of myself, but even in my thirties. And I've always two steps forward and one and a half steps back, here I'm feeling funny again.

Or, having some episodes they're not huge, but they're significant enough to where I'm concerned. But in 2018 when I was creating, how funny is this? So I, I run Strobel education, which is my education consulting business. And then I run kimstrobel.com, which is my happiness coaching business.

And I was creating my first online coaching program for women in the fall of 2018. And I was running struggle, ed full-time as well. And I had the worst panic attack driving home an hour away. It was the worst attack I've had in 20, 25 years.. That, that set off a chain of events where I just got worse.

I all of a sudden didn't want to go anywhere by myself. I didn't want to go drive five minutes. I didn't want my husband to leave the house. And let me just tell you, I. was mad. I was like, you know what? That lived through years where every five minutes of my day was pure hell, because I felt so bad and incompetent and I couldn't function adults.

And why would you possibly make me endure this? Because I now use my tragedy to help others. I'm doing good work with my mission. And what I did is I went right back to cognitive behavioral therapy. I ordered a bunch of books. I started listening to Dr. Claire Weekes, who had these great videos on anxiety.

I ordered that book that I had told you about, which is rewire the anxious brain. And I literally had to reeducate myself and begin to use all of my tools again. Now I wasn't down for seven years. Like I was the first time I was down for a couple of months still functioning, but it was hard. And I came out of it a lot quicker because I know what this is.

And I just had to revisit and do the work. The other thing that I think has come out of this is I have despised. The part of Kim that has this struggle. I hate her. She is weak. She has derailed my life more times than I can count. And so the way that I have dealt with her over the last probably 15 years is by being this overly ambitious, overly driven achiever personality.

Because that way I could squash that weak part of Kim and keep her in her place. So when I started to come through this relapse, I thought to myself, what is the new level of healing or learning that needed to take place? And what really emerged for me was. I need to practice as you use the term self loyalty, I need to practice self loyalty self-love and self-compassion for all parts of Kim that I don't have to push this struggle a way that it is part of who I am.

And so when I get ready to walk on a stage, now I tell myself, yeah, I'm taking the big, bold, brave Kim up to that stage, but also comes the Kim that sometimes struggles. And one of my affirmations is actually, I am honoring my fierceness while also loving and accepting my vulnerability. Because I have not been good to those parts of Kim who, even though she struggles, she deserves love and kindness and patience and all of those things.

And I don't have to push her way.

Nancy:: Ah, Kim, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that story, because I think we can all relate to that even with maybe, not the level of panic disorder, but just, I wrote down the quote, I wanted to squash her and keep her in her place. And that is, that's what we do to ourselves.

Nancy:: That's just brutal. And yet I can relate to that idea of, any flaw I have. I want to squash it and move past it and get over it. And when we can befriend it and bring it in. Ah so I don't know that it's easier, but there's less struggle.

Kim: There's less struggle and you're allowed to cry.

She deserves space.

Nancy:: Yes. Yes.

Kim: Yeah. Whatever you resist persists. And so she is a big part of who I am now. Listen, I hope she keeps herself in check for the next few years. (laughter)

Nancy:: We got big goals. We got to go after,

but I do think that I love them. I love your message. That you're that it's the big, bold goal. And this self acceptance, self love piece. Like we don't see that often in this world of self-help and personal development and coaching and all that stuff, but those are working together, usually one or the other.

It's the warm, fuzzy self-love person and the big, bold goal person. Binding them, I think is truly where the magic is. Yeah.

Kim: I'm working on it girlfriend, but

Nancy:: It's a amazing message. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability in sharing that and sharing the happiness formula and. And helping us feel less out of control with this default happiness thing.

Kim: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I think we just have to embrace the shit show that we are.

Nancy:: I think there's so much power in that, that, that needs to be a podcast.

Kim: I was thinking, I don't know if I've named my Facebook, I have a free Facebook group for women.

Called Finds Joy, which is the name of my podcast. And I was thinking the other day, because somebody was telling me about this new co this little committee of friends that meet every other day, they're called the itty bitty shitty committee. And I'm like, they meet me for just 15 minutes to just process and get some of those.

, feelings out. And I was like, wouldn't that be a great name for a Facebook group or a puff?

Nancy:: Yeah, that would be, that'd be awesome. beause that's where we need that, that raw honesty of here's the shit show. And here's the other cool stuff is we need more of that. Nah, Kim, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and chat with us.

And I am, we're going to put the gratitude work in the show notes. I'm also going to link to the rewire, the anxious brain, in the show notes, because that I bought the book and it's really powerful and I think it will help. You guys think about anxiety in a different way than we've been taught?

Kim: Definitely like my social links, if they want to join the Facebook group for free, where I show up and do mini little happiness trainings and we just do real talk in there. And then I'll send you like my Instagram handle, which is Kim struggle, joy. So you can have some of those, if they wish to embrace the messiness of who they are, but actually, we're all just one daring day at a time we're trying to do better.

And so we have to just be who we are while also. Acknowledging that sometimes life is hard.

Nancy:: Exactly. What's your website?

Kim: so it's Kim strobel.com and then if they happen to be a school teacher, I have struggle education.com.

Nancy:: Awesome. Great. Just in case, people are like listening.

Yeah, they're listening to it in the kitchen while they're cooking dinner and they don't have time to go to the show notes. So I feel that people okay. Thank you, Kim. It was great chatting with you.

Kim: You're so welcome. I appreciate you having me on your show.

Nancy:: This interview really showed me the power of the question underneath the question.

We spend so much time and energy answering the surface questions. When the insight and power comes from asking a better question, this better question concept also gets us out of that black and white thinking that many of our questions put us in. And many of us have strong opinions about gratitude and affirmations.

Some might even argue they can be a bit blackened. But through our conversation and asking a deeper question, I was able to add a little gray to my black and white thinking this week. I challenge you to ask yourself a better question. When you find yourself spinning on one of your standard questions, dig a little deeper.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is. 

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

Episode 152: Therapy: Committing to Doing it Differently

In this episode, I’m talking with therapist Riva Stoudt, about therapy committing to doing therapy differently.

I didn’t always know I wanted to be a therapist. It took me a while to ADMIT it out loud that I wanted to be a therapist (I was 34 before I got my license). I honestly have a love-hate relationship with the world of therapy and psychology. It endlessly fascinates me—and yet the industry as a whole is notoriously dysfunctional and, at times, archaic. 

At 25, I was getting ready to start my second year of my Master’s in Counseling. I had registered for classes and was less than a week from starting when out of the blue, I decided to drop out. I still remember walking from my apartment to the registrar’s office to withdraw. It was a totally irrational decision and 100% based on my gut which was SCREAMING at me to withdraw. I didn’t know why… I just knew I couldn’t go back and continue my studies. 

Seven years later, 4 different jobs, and after completing a different Masters’ Degree, I decided to complete my studies and earn my Master’s in Community Counseling. This was also a gut decision—and a particularly amazing one because miraculously, I re-enrolled just under the deadline where I would have had to start my studies over. 

What happened in those 7 years? A lot of my own work, my own soul searching, my own therapy and a commitment to doing it differently. Committing to doing therapy differently was how I could ultimately make the choice to continue the work and it’s why I’m here today.

It’s rare that I meet another therapist who has this same commitment which is why I was so excited to bring you my conversation with Riva Stoudt of Into the Woods Counseling.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What inspired Riva to become a therapist

• The changes we both would like to see in the therapy profession

• Positivity culture and how it can keep people from healing and making progress

• Some tips on finding a good therapist

Resources mentioned:

• Into the Woods Counseling

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Transcript:

Riva: It's hard to say things like I was being passive aggressive. Everybody does that, but to say it and to just acknowledge it and sit with it, even at that level is so hard. And so , if we can't do that for ourselves in our own relationships, in our own lives and look at those impulses that we have and how we do or don't succeed in managing them, how are we possibly going to sit with our clients when they tell us some awful story about something they did?

And if they're be isn't the place for that, then.

Nancy: I didn't always know I wanted to be a therapist. It took me a while to actually admit it out loud that I wanted to be a therapist. I was 34 before I even got my license. I honestly have a love, hate relationship with the world of therapy and psychology. It endlessly fascinates me.

And yet the industry as a whole is notoriously dysfunctional. And at times, arcade. At 25, I was getting ready to start. My second year of my masters in counseling, I had registered for classes and was less than a week from starting when, out of the blue, I decided to drop out. I still remember walking from my apartment to the registrar's office to withdraw.

It was a totally irrational decision and a 100% based on my gut, which was scary, screaming at me to withdraw. I didn't know why I just knew I couldn't go back and continue. My studies seven years later, four different jobs. And after completing a different master's degree, I decided to complete my studies and earn, and my master's in community counseling.

This was also a gut decision and a particularly amazing one because miraculously, I re-enrolled just under the deadline where I would have had to start my studies over. What happened in those seven years, a lot of my own work, my own soul, searching my own therapy and a commitment to doing it differently.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed hustle on the cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Yep. Committing to doing therapy was how I could ultimately make the choice to continue the work.

And it's why I'm here today. It's rare. I meet another therapist who has this commitment, which is why I was so excited to bring you my conversation with Riva stout of, into the woods counseling Riva. And I dive into all things therapy. We talk about what inspired her to be a therapist, the changes we would like to see in the therapy profession, positivity culture, and how it can keep people from healing and making progress and tips on finding a good therapist.

Riva inspired me so much. A few takeaways I hope will inspire you. No one has the answers for your life. A therapist's role is to listen and help you get to know yourself better. Their job is not to tell you what to do, have all the answers or heal your past their job is to help you find the tools that work best for you to unpeel the onion that is your life.

We are all human. We all have blind spots, traumas, and places we need help. And it reminds me of a quote by rom Doss that guides my work with clients. We are all just walking each other. I'm so excited today to bring to you Riva stout. She and I are going to be talking about all things therapy, which is just going to be awesome.

And I think in a, be a little eye opening for a lot of us. So Riva, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Okay. I hear from your bio, you are a third generation therapist and it is part of your family business. Tell me what drew you to becoming a therapist?

Riva: , so I actually was determined not to cause I was going to forge my own identity and my own path.

So my mom's parents, so both my grandparents were actually psychiatrists. Back in the day when psychiatrists were the ones who did therapy and no one else did therapy in the sixties. So they, they did that. And then my mom was a school counselor and worked with kids of all ages throughout her career.

And we had all sorts of books lying around the house about psychology and trauma, which was, in the early nineties, trauma was like a very cutting edge idea, and read a lot of these books probably before it was age appropriate for me but it gave me a head start. And then when I went away to college, I was like, no, I'm, I'm going to be an artist. I don't want to, I don't want to follow this path. That that is. What my family has done before I wanted to do my own thing, but you can't get rid of that interest in people, and they're everywhere and it's fascinating.

And I took a few psychology classes and social psychology, which I still think is a major influence for me as a therapist too. And then I had this moment in my twenties where I was talking to a friend about a relationship that he was in, where you know the person that he was in the relationship with was treating him really badly.

And my friend kept talking about all these reasons why he thought if he just stuck around long enough, it could change and all of this. And so at some point I was trying to, snap him out of this relationship trans that he was in.

And I said something about how we teach people, how it's okay to treat us, and that he was teaching this person that it was okay to treat him like shit, basically. And there was this pause and then my friend looked at me and said, I never thought about it like that before. And that was the moment.

It was like, it was really like a single moment where it was like, I heard that and the clouds parted and it was like, this is what I want to do. I want to help people see things in a new way and change their perspective and in a way that really impacts how they live their lives. That was that. And then I, that summer.

Started, signing up for classes that I needed for prerequisites for grad school and all of that stuff, all of the hoops that we have to jump through so many hoops and never looked back after that.

Nancy: And then did you just go right to private practice?

Riva: No, actually worked in crisis for a while first.

. And I feel like every year in crisis intervention is like five years in regular I'm sure. . That for a couple of years and then started my private practice overlapping while I was still doing some work on the crisis team and then shifted over.

Nancy: That's one of my so I call the inner critic a monger and one of my monger messages, I went right out of grad school into private practice. And one of my Monger messages is I am not a real therapist cause I've never done crisis work because that's what real therapists do

Riva: All right. Oh, that's so funny because it's just, so it's such a different mindset, like to switch over from crisis to private practice, even though private practice is what I always wanted to do.

And that was the ultimate goal. It was such a weird mindset shift from okay, how do I help this person through the next 12 to 48 hours? To actually, sitting with somebody on an ongoing basis and making some major life changes. So . It's not, of course there's transferable skills, many transferable skills, but at the same time, it's a whole different world, so .

Nancy: Very different job. . Okay, so this is going to start us off in this competition. And this is a very broad question. What do you wish you could change about the therapy industry?

Riva: What do I wish I could change about the therapy industry? So many things. Starting from the super broad wide angle lens, I wish that we had universal health care in America.

So that being the first thing that I am always, as much as I think so many of us try to make ourselves accessible through, having sliding scale or pro bono or donating our time or advocacy work or whatever. It's not an individual problem, any one of us can solve that, like that access to therapy is is so limited.

And so that is something that always nags at me is I wish more people had access to good therapy more of the time. So that, that being the backdrop of everything and then, within the field I really would like to see, and I think to some degree this is happening but I would really like to see the field just moving towards a more social justice informed, racism, informed sexism and informed.

All of that bringing that lens to our therapeutic work and understanding more about the context we're situated in, moving away from this idea that we can still get into of humans as these atomized individuals who it's all within. It's all, everything is a matter of individual choice and mindset.

And if you just change that, then you know, then that you'll be fine, looking more at the systems and the material conditions. I think also too I think therapists, So many of us come from a background where there's a lot of family trauma, family dysfunction, and I think sometimes we really bring that to the way we relate to each other.

I think there's simultaneously within the field, there can be a real fear of conflict and it needs to be nice all the time. And then at the same time, when conflict does emerge, then it's just like this knock-down drag-out, aggressive, like everybody hating each other, especially with now with social media.

I think that this is very it's an outlet for that kind of energy. And so I think we're not good at disagreeing with each other and being in relationship with each other at the same time, just in the field. And so I would really like to see us developing more of a culture of vigorous debate, vigorous disagreement, where we're also not just throwing each other away all the time.

. So I that's an evolution I would like to see. And I think that the therapy industry has that in common with many others. Right now that's a place we need to get better,

Nancy: . for sure. . Definitely. It is a toxic culture and that is, like I related so much to your story, of how you got started.

I actually started my graduate school and then dropped out because I was like, I can't deal with this culture. Like it was so competitive yet supportive yet passive aggressive, that weird mix. And I was, and it wasn't until I entered, I was in my thirties when I finally went back because I was like, I'm strong enough in myself that I'm not looking that I can forge my own path.

I'm not looking. To this group to be mentors to me and help me figure it out. Because when I was, it was : bad.

Riva: Totally. . That's super relatable to me. I went back. So I did my undergrad at the usual, I went at 18 and finished at 22 and then I went to grad school. I started just about a month before my 30th birthday.

And I feel like having waited a little bit was. So much better because just as you said, I felt very much more settled in myself. I wasn't looking for validation and mentorship in that environment nearly as much. And it made getting through well. And when you combine the therapy industry with academia, like those two cultures collide all kinds of craziness. So , I think you need some inner strength to get through that intact,

Nancy: but you're right in this, that is, that is a stereotype that all therapists, most therapists have come from their own trauma and that's why, but I think it's accurate because why else would you be drawn?

To this world of listening to people's problems and helping them figure it out, if you weren't a little broken,

Riva: Intense interest, I it's, it doesn't just come to people like randomly. I don't think at all. I think it's very much we have a lot of us have a lot of early experiences in common, I think.

Nancy: Yes. . And I was actually just reading, which is a really old school book the drama of the gifted child. And I was just pick that up and was reading it and it just, she talks about that very fact that we are all and then the danger comes, which I see all the time that we reenact our, we become to our clients, the parent that we had.

And, like we want that the support from our clients. I am not saying that right.

Riva: No. . I get what, , it's an incredible book. She, , the way she talks about just the reproduction of those cycles and then . That we learn that like level of attunement to other people from having had to attune that way to our own parents and then, oh my God, that just comes into the therapy room in a million different ways, have you ever read her sons and work? , I haven't.

Nancy: I haven't picked up the book.

Riva: It’s fascinating. I, cause he's also a psychotherapist and his perspective is so interesting just in that, he says about how she did not succeed as a mother and being, breaking that cycle that she describes in the book.

And yet it was her work and her insight that also helped give him the freedom to understand and to try to break out of that cycle himself. , super fascinating. And just, I think an example of just how freaking complex everything is with all this stuff.

Nancy: And that's where I think if we're not owning that as therapists that, like I know part of what makes me really good at my job is I'm in there with them.

Not, I'm not, I'm saying like I am, I, I'm working on my own anxiety. I'm trying to heal my own mongers, everything I'm saying to my clients to do, I'm doing it to it's not like I've been healed, but I've, I've gone to therapy my entire life. I've been around a lot of therapists who act like they are.

Riva:

. My, my motto is just to try to stay one step ahead in my own healing. And just to try to keep up with that process so that I'm not I'm not lagging, but also at the same time. It doesn't get done. It's not oh, here's my, I'm going to look up my solution and my solutions book and give it to you.

And I think like when you're doing good therapy, you're actually asking your clients to do some really hard things. And how do we have the right to ask that, if we're not willing to do that ourselves.

Nancy: . Preach. Amen. I totally agree. Okay. Which that brings me to one of my biggest pet peeves.

And I think it's up there with you on, in the therapy industry and. Coaching the whole freaking self-help transformational, whatever. And I don't, and I'm not as firm. I guess I don't, I didn't know it was a problem in the therapy industry. I'm talking about positive thinking and positive psychology.

I didn't realize it was such a problem in a therapy industry until I heard you talking about that. So share more about your thoughts on that.

Riva: , it's interesting because I think I think there's so many layers to positivity culture, like I think the most obvious layer being this sort of very simplified, like the secret, like you control your thoughts and manifest and everything, positive will come to you and all of that.

And in those aspects of various cultures and subcultures that really shut down any expression of difficult emotion, painful emotion, et cetera. And I do think that, hopefully we don't see a lot of therapists doing that. But I do think there's a deeper layer where we are so locked in as a culture, I think as a broader culture to this black and white thinking of like good and bad people, wanting to toss people in one basket or another.

And I think as therapists, we like to think that we don't do that. But then I think we often don't show a willingness to really acknowledge and. And talk about and sit honestly, with just what it really means to be just a mixed bag as a person, which we all are, we're all a mixed bag.

And so how I see it playing out often is that therapists want to put a positive spin or like an understanding a spin of kind of. Understanding certain kinds of behaviors as the result of trauma or is the result of previous harm in a way that skirts really close to minimizing or even excusing them sometimes.

I don't know what your experience is working with therapists as clients that's a whole, that could be its whole own episode. But I noticed that when I have therapists as clients and they come in talking about relationships that they've had or family experiences where somebody has really harmed them is immediately followed by this explanation where the therapist that takes this takes the person's perspective and is but I understand, that as a kid, they went through all this stuff and it was really hard.

And I'm like, okay, that may all very well be true, but like, why are we just sailing right past the impact that it had on you and the harm that was done, and the, the perhaps negative intentions that came from that person, whether or not they were a result of trauma, that's real. And I, and so I notice it, with people who are our therapists when they are my clients, but also I think I see it happening with therapists with their own clients.

Especially I see this a lot with couples actually, where there's a member of the couple is getting away with some really like egregious provocative kind of behavior. And that's. That's, people get under each other's skin that is that is part of relationships and like people needle each other and they get into power struggles and all of that.

And I see often with couples therapy, that sometimes I find couples, therapists want to put the best, most positive spin on that partner's behavior. Or even both partner's behavior instead of really confronting. You're being an asshole right now. You're getting away with it, there's just some letting off the hook that happens. And I've had, I've had clients come to me to work on childhood trauma where they talked about, my last therapist just kept talking about how my dad was like that because of the trauma he'd experienced as a kid.

And it's that's not really that. , it's not enough. It doesn't actually help that client undo the impact of the trauma that was per petrated against them. And I think that to some degree how I see it is I think that it's a. I think it can be a defense mechanism against some of the secondary trauma we experience and the stories that we hear.

I think that we, when I think back on some of the stuff I've heard, I've, I, of course, like you, we hear hair raising stuff in this work and I've heard, I've had clients tell me about stuff that they've done that is really upsetting. And I think in that context, it's easier to S to go to the explanation and say it's because of this this childhood trauma it's because of this other thing, et cetera, et cetera.

Rather than really sitting with wow. My client did something really mean and sadistic to their kid or my, client's partner is, making their lives. Really unpleasant purpose, that's, it's hard to sit with that.

Nancy: , because I also noticed they get, sometimes I'll have clients that'll come in, a lot of my clients love dropping the narcissism, like I saw, my husband's and our husbands and my brother's a narcissist, but and I, but, and they get really caught up in the diagnosis and doing all the research and figuring out, naming the stories and seeing the connections and intellectualizing that process.

And sometimes they're jumping from therapist to gather all the narcissism information they can. . But I don't really care about the diagnosis. Let's talk about how you feel and you know what that's doing for you, about the impact.

Riva: And the actual behavior versus okay, we can put the, NPD stamp on this person. What does that do? . Yes.

Nancy: . What do we have there? But that is, but I think there is this problem of intellectualizing everything, change your story, get a different mindset, look at it from a different lens.

Rather than, and much of what I'm working with my clients on, and I think is general good therapy is how do I build a self loyalty to myself taking in the larger cultural . Conditions I've been raised with and have affected how I see the world.

Riva: Yes. I love what you just said about I love the self loyalty piece and I love what you just said about the change, your story idea, because I think I think actually, of course, many of my clients, I think very much do need to change their story, but I think that's because they need it to be their story needs to reflect the truth better.

Not because they need to pick a a nicer story, and I very well said, I think that we, or let me backtrack a second there. So I think I actually often find myself saying to clients when we're going through some of the trauma, especially the relational trauma is I think I often say something right.

I think you are, telling me the, the most flattering version or the best version of this story, but I don't know if that's the most true, truthful version, and here's what does it mean if we actually look at some of the other versions of the story that feel harder to look at more painful, but actually might be a better reflection of the truth.

And I think that can be a much more freeing Point of view to look at one's narrative from because then there's, you're not engaged in that avoidance process. It's not oh, I have to construct this narrative that makes everybody look as good as possible. That's the one I'd be more comfortable with it's okay.

How do I sit in the real truth of all of this? And I think that comes back to the self loyalty piece to me, because then if I'm willing to really look at myself, the people in my life, my actions, my history from a really truthful to the best that I can accomplish from a really truthful point of view, then I think that's a way of really embodying that allyship to oneself that I'm not going to, I'm not going to avoid the truth for the sake of, making myself comfortable.

I'm going to sit with myself. And the difficulty of all that is and has been, which is a big task for all of us, but I think more genuinely transformative one..

Nancy. So the idea change your story. I say in air quotes to be look at it. That's used largely in the context of make it be more positive.

Let's explain this away and you're saying change your story. Look at it. A different lens. Let's go a little deeper on this. Look at the yucky stuff that we're trying to, that you're, we're trying to intellectualize a way in dive into those feelings, which is what I found was so fascinating about Alice Miller.

Is that her name that here she's written this phenomenal book back to the drama of a gifted child. She's written this phenomenal book about reprogramming childhood trauma and, or the need to do she doesn't, it's not really a how to, but she. Couldn't do it completely in her life and ended up passing it onto her son, which is what she rails against in the book.

And it's just, is the, in some ways in reading the book, it's so disappointing to go oh crap. No matter how much I look at this, I still am going to have blind spots. But I definitely think her, had she not, and I'm not saying, oh my gosh, she was an amazing person.

So it doesn't matter that she abused her son. That's not what I'm saying, but but she did some amazing work. In unhooking as much as she could.

Riva: And I think she, I really believe that , it was very much before her time, like writing about that kind of stuff, in the mid 20th century, I think was I don't think there was a real culture among people who were involved in psychology at the time who could really receive the weight of what she was getting across.

I think that it having been a very male dominated field up to that point and, just the influence of Freud and all the. The prominent male thinkers. And then, it's not that there, of course wasn't an emphasis on childhood at that time. Of course there was, but it felt very much there was a, there was even at that point, that sort of intellectualized rarefied, we're going to talk about it in terms of complexes.

And I, I think Alice Miller was really ahead of her time in talking about, I'm going to look at what's actually happening. What is the what's actually happening between parent and child. And I think about that book now. One of my most important influences and teachers around this stuff that we're talking about now is David Schnarch.

I don't know if you're super familiar with him. So he's a couples therapist primarily. And how do you spell his name? So it's S C H N a R C H. And so he's primarily in the couples worlds but he has recently done this incredible deep dive into the neurobiology of trauma and how the brain and has this incredible book brain talk that I'm just constantly I bought copies to give to people.

So I'm constantly pushing that book and I use a lot of his model inside my practice with my clients. And. And he talks a lot about this idea of mind mapping, how we internalize maps of other people's minds. And sometimes the pictures that we internalize of other people's minds can be pretty terrifying.

And awful, and how you can observe these dynamics playing out between people. And when I think about Alice Mueller's book and some of the examples she gave in the book, I'm like, wow, this is exactly what he's talking about now using this neuro-biological lens that she had no way of having at the time, because neurology was barely a thing.

So , so I think in some ways she was a little bit personally disadvantaged because she could see all of this stuff. And then there was no context for then what do you do with it? Zero at the time, there was no trauma therapy. There was nothing. So . Hopefully if she had lived in 2020, it would have been a different outcome, but who knows?

Nancy: So we've we were talking before I hit record about kind of the changes in therapy in, just in the differences in our generations or our worlds and how you were saying, oh, like the mask of the therapist is, this is a, a blank slate. And then and I was saying that a lot of my colleagues still do the blank slate right world.

And how I, that I just think that is just. Aw drives me crazy because I just don't feel like that is how good therapy works.

Riva: It's also just not possible. Always communicating something about who you are.

Nancy: Yes. And so I think, and still to this day, even though clients will say to me, because I share of my own life, like stuff that's happening not a ton, but I do even now see, I have a huge complex.

Riva: It's so hard to even say that we go against this norm.

Nancy: . The norm is so strong. Like it is…Strong. And so the fact that I share stories with clients, I'll be like, oh, I'm such a terrible therapist, even though they're like, that was so helpful. Thank you for letting me know only one or whatever it still is, put into us not to do that.

So I wanted to hear just what, how you see therapy changing with your peers and the differences that you're seeing and how it's hopefully.

Riva: . So I went to Lewis and Clark for grad school. And it's has its issues like any institution and academia, again, a whole, we're rural. But one of the great things about the program is that it is explicitly a social justice program.

. So we, that idea of the blank slate was thrown out from the very beginning. And they really did make it a norm in the program to incorporate, that each class it's not oh, you go to all the classes and then here's the social justice class. Every teacher was expected to be incorporating that into their curriculum to varying levels of success.

It was very much like lip service, but some of the professors really did, I think, especially, I just have to give so much credit to the adjuncts who are working for so little pay. They love it and are practicing it and really made an effort to bring in relevant material about actually, what does it look like to incorporate social justice into your practice, not your theoretical practice that you haven't been doing for three weeks.

And so that was a great. Place to be an emerging therapist, because we were really encouraged to think about our own personal history is not just, family and and immediate relationships, but what does it mean to be white? What does it mean to be a person of color as a therapist with white clients?

What does it mean to be a white therapist with clients of color or, and any variety of combinations? Like how do, how does it change what's happening in the therapy room when, each of those pieces is different. And and I live in Portland there's a strong social justice therapist community here, which is great that people who are really aware of the impact of power and privilege and identity on the therapeutic process.

And so I think I, I'm sure I, to some degree I live in a bit of a bubble because I'm like, oh, things are changing. This is really good, to some degree, that's, I'm sure, just part of the community that I'm working within. But I do see, people talking about that even in the larger therapist community, I think more than certainly 10 years ago or 20 years ago, And so I'm excited by that, just from the standpoint of honestly if nothing else, it helps you do better therapy.

When I I felt so grateful just during this past summer. So of course we're in this moment where black lives matter has really erupted in a new way and it's really powerful movement. And I saw a lot of white therapists really scrambling to know how to, how what do we do? How do I address this?

Like how I don't feel like it's okay for me to not say anything, especially if I am a white therapist working with black clients, but then what do I say? And I felt I felt really lucky not just in terms of my grad school education, but just in terms of having had a background in activism and.

Learn from a lot of really amazing black and people of color activists around being less fearful and talking about this stuff, so I just felt so much more equipped going into session, last month with my clients of color and really saying I know this must be affecting you, let's talk about like how this is bringing up racial trauma, if you want to.

And if not, we'll just continue with what we were doing before, but and not really missing a beat. And so if only for that reason, right? To be a blank slate in that moment would have been w it would have created a therapeutic rupture rather than to go in and say Okay. , like I'm a white therapist and this is like a situation we're positioned differently.

And we're going to navigate this explicitly and talk about it and create a space where that's the fullness of you as a person, as being welcomed into the room. And I'm not pretending that's irrelevant, right? . .

Nancy: Because that was interesting. And even some of my some of my white clients.

When they would bring up what was happening and then I would engage and we would start talking. They were like, oh, I didn't know. And I'm like, , this is the work. And I think that's an interesting stereotype of I'm just talking about individual, like I love how you're saying we need to be expanding this beyond just I'm an individual and I'm make individual actions, or to my family of origin, but to the larger cultural, patriarchal norms that we are living and that are affecting us.

And how that shows up.

Riva: And as individuals, we carry all that stuff with us. . It's not like in a box somewhere else. .

Nancy: Which has been interesting, and I, so getting into more of this, the politics. I think that's been something I've noticed in my space, especially since Trump was elected that people would come into my office.

People would talk to me before they went down. We went into therapy and more than not, they were asking me why I political my politics, which I just was, and I live in Ohio, this is a red state. Like we are Trump country. There's blue and then red, but yes,

Riva: It's just that our population is all concentrated in those areas. . But,

Nancy: That had never happened to me where someone, ask and would say, I don't think I'd feel safe talking to someone who, voted for Trump or supported him which was just really interesting. And I also ran into the opposite where a client. I was pretty vocal about in session, especially about who I was, who I was voting for. And in a group I was running at the time, just assumed everyone was going to vote for Hillary and got into trouble when I had individual client. And then they had individual sessions and one of them had voted for Trump and we took much of the session was discussing that.

And I don't, and I don't know that I would have, I probably wouldn't have assumed that everyone was going to vote for Hillary, but I don't think I, I doing an over, I probably wouldn't, have made the assumption, but I still would have shared my own viewpoint in there because that's what she was upset about is that I assumed.

Riva: Okay. Okay. Gotcha. .

Nancy: . because she in her mind had really good reasons for voting

Nancy: Why wouldn't, of course, that's right. That's where we do it. But I think that, that is interesting, that to me was the first time that politics entered the therapy room. But in reality, they're there all the time.

Riva: Exactly. Exactly. . And I think that's, what's been so interesting about the past, almost four years wild is that, I think we're starting to see more and more the way. With that election and the way things have gone since then people are starting to make more of that connection where it's oh, it's not who you vote for.

And then, like you think about that once every four years and that's politics, right? It's the context of our lives, where that occurs and it's not it's again, it's just not something you put in a box and set aside. It's something that is really impacting people's lives and all of our relationships.

And it's pulling the veil off, I think in that way of how we think about what politics are and how they're integrated into our lives or not, and how they're integrated then into therapy or not. ,

Nancy: the holistic. Viewpoint of it, it's fascinating to me. So this, I just had this thought, which is not related to anything. I'm going to go back to positive thinking and going into the dark side, because I think the challenge with that is if you don't have a therapy, a therapist who is in therapy and doing their own work, it's very hard for that therapist or anyone to hold the empathy space that is needed.

Yes. And not jump in and try to rescue someone who's going into that door. Space. Yes,

Riva: I that's absolutely true. And they need to be doing not only doing the work, but doing the right work themselves, and yes, I think that's, it's what you said about going into the empathy space and really holding that is, is something I've thought about a lot.

With respect to this question of kind of the darker side of human nature, human behavior, however you want to frame it. And because again, it goes back to that sort of black and white thinking. Good and bad kind of thinking where, okay, I'm going to if say I have a client who's sitting in front of me describing something they did, that was really shitty and really driven by some, crappy motives and some intent harmful intent.

Let's say so I could, one of the things I could do is I could lean away from it and try to put this like childhood trauma, spin on it or whatever, whatever version. And I could talk with them about why they think they did that. What happened in their past that made them want to whatever.

And that to me is bypassing it maybe to get there eventually. Sure. But to just jump to that is bypassing or I could bypass it by, maybe I just write them off as they're narcissist and they have, this, whatever diagnosis, then they're just an asshole and that's it, which is another way of bypassing it.

So to really, but to really sit to sit and really see someone in their worst behavior to see someone at their worst, or to see someone describing themselves when they are at their worst and to really sit with it and to not throw the person away and to be invested in helping them become better. And to have the level of compassion and the level of accountability and the level of courage to be in that space with someone is incredibly difficult. And I certainly have not succeeded at it. In all the opportunities that I have had like we, we are confronted with those opportunities, somewhat regularly, I think.

Hopefully and we're not going to succeed in all of them, but to do that, to succeed some of the time and to succeed, hopefully more of the time as we go along really does mean in my experience that I have to learn to sit with and hold that stuff within myself and within my own relationships and within my own marriage, and I'm about to I'm six months pregnant.

So in my parenting, so that will be a whole new ball game of that, and to and we don't have a lot of encouragement and support and doing that. I think it's hard for people. And I see this every day with clients, but just in any body in general, it's hard to say things like, oh, I, I was being passive aggressive.

Like I did XYZ, like my husband and I were arguing about the dishes or whatever. And then I did XYZ because I was being passive aggressive and I wanted to get back at him. Everybody does that stuff, but to say it and to just acknowledge it and sit with it, even at that level is so hard.

And so , if we can't do that for ourselves in our own relationships, in our own lives and look at those impulses that we have and how we, do or don't succeed in managing them. . How are we possibly going to sit with our clients when they tell us some awful story about something they did and if they're happy, isn't the place for that then what is?

Nancy: But that's when I started becoming a really great therapist, if I do say so myself was when I started really showing up for myself when I really started recognizing, okay, there is no perfect here and owning with clients of, oh, I didn't do that. I, I don't have to be like Oh I intellectually bypassed you, but I, but the next week when they come in to be like, let's start here.

Riva: I think I think I went by something it's gone by. . . Totally.

Nancy: . I think that is so important to recognize that I'm going to mess it up, but I got to circle back. You have the ability to notice when I messed up and how can I fix that if it's possible and what do I need to do? And that only happens in the therapy room when you've done it in your own life.

Yes, exactly.

Riva: Exactly. Like it's if you're starting to get into that practice of better self confrontation and it gives you that, it's like anything else, it's that muscle you're exercising and then you're more able to do it with clients. You're more able to confront yourself with them and to confront them and to encourage them to confront themselves, which is to me where so much of the power of really good therapy comes from.

.

Nancy: , definitely. I totally agree. Okay. So if someone is looking to. And I get that. I get this question all the time. Like I want to work with a therapist on something that's not in my wheelhouse, how do I start? Where do I start? How do I do this? And so then you go to psychology today and you see the 50 billion people that are doing it.

How would you recommend someone? What are your tips ?

Riva: On finding like the right therapist for finding a good therapist? I think, I really think it's so hard and I am just the aside is that I just wish that Therapists were, I think this is another area of courage, just better at writing their profiles and websites to reflect who they authentically are.

And I don't know. Do you know Laura Long at all now she has a great program called your badass therapy practice that I went through at the beginning of 2019. And there's so much encouragement around showing up authentically in your marketing. And it's so easy to create that to do that from like a cynical oh, it's the marketing, it's all about the money perspective, but truly since I have improved my marketing, the, my best fit clients find me so much more easily.

And so I think there's so much we need to do on the therapist side of that. But in terms of, in the absence of that for now, in terms of a good fit I think there is so much about the more willing you are as a client to show up courageously like in the consult or like in the first session and really lay on the line, what it is you're dealing with, which I know is terrifying.

I'm a client too. I know how easy it is to even when we're seeking therapy, to go in and want to put our best face forward. For some reason, even though we're there to theoretically dump out all our crap and figure out what to do with it. But I think to go in. Really willing to lay it on the line as much as you can and see if the therapist seems like they're able to contain that.

I think that we there's so many lists of questions, right? I'm sure there's. I can tell when a potential client has Googled it and is reading the bullets and questions about what to ask a potential therapist. And it's very cute and I totally get it. And I, it's like when I was looking for a midwife, I Googled the list of questions.

You ask a midwife. But I think sometimes we give our intuition short shrift. If you go in and lay it all on the line and you have someone who can really see that you can really see they're sitting with all that you brought in and then. Not afraid of it. They're not weird about it.

They're not shrinking away from it. They're just really leaning towards you and ready to take it on. Then I, that to me is a better sign of a good fit than any particular answer that you could that you could get to any particular question. I think also having said all that, the the particular question that I think should be should the therapist should have a good answer for if you go in and say like, how would you approach X, if the therapist doesn't have a good answer or they're not willing to say, I don't know, that's not a great sign to me, we should be able to, I think a therapist that's the right fit for somebody.

We'll be able to say not like here's steps a through Z to say here's where I'd go in. Here's the Trailhead. I see, I have internal family systems training. We talk a lot about trail heads. And so if I'm sitting with a client in a consult and I don't see trail heads, like that's probably not the right client, and so I should be able to articulate what those are and say here's, here are some places we might start. And so I think that's a, that's an important an important sign. If you go into a consultor for a session with someone that they are able to articulate something about their sense of direction that the therapist is and then it's like, when I have a consult with someone and there's somebody comes in I don't do OCD, for example, like that's just not my specialty.

And I think it needs, specialty approach. And so somebody comes in and says I need help with OCD. And what would you do for that? I would be like, I will get you a great referral, so that's that's important too.

Nancy: , because I love what you said about trusting your intuition because I think too often, we cause I've, totally done this in picking a therapist, we go in and think, oh, the therapist knows everything. And I'm just the lowly person and ignore. And I'm talking from how quickly they return your phone call to how quickly they set up. If they have a con consult or, all of the things that emails they send you the, what their message says, like paying attention to all the little clues and being like, does this fit me?

And even if you don't know what that means to be to get grounded enough to be like, this is a person I'm going to be spewing my guts to. So I better have a connection. And if I go in there being like, Ooh, they have to know everything, then it's going to be a pro.

Riva: Totally. . And just the reality of knowing that.

We aren't the right fit for everybody. We aren't everything to everyone. And I think that, that's another thing that I think sometimes we give lip service to, but then, I do think therapists often try to be everything to everyone. And we just aren't. I know, and I, and increasingly, as my practice matures and I mature as a therapist I have a stronger sense of who are the people that I really that I am at my best with, and that.

Be at their best with me. That's not the same as who it's going to be for another therapist, which is great. There's, , exactly.

Nancy: That's the, , because I know when when a client comes in and is talking about severe trauma from their childhood and I'm like, you need to go work with someone that works with that.

And I think a lot of therapists have the why, therapy, trauma, that's what we do.

Riva: . Totally. Or, . , for sure. Or I should be able to, work with every personality type or whatever, and it's actually it's funny the thinking about that's what we do as therapists.

So another thing right. Is like depression is that's what therapists treat depression or whatever. I actually really don't do severe depression. And I actually don't. Work well with clients who are severely depressed. And that unfortunately is something I had to learn by working with clients who were severely depressed early on and realizing actually this is not I'm not doing a great job.

This is not the best scenario for me to apply my skills. And there are great therapists out there who specialize in severe depression, and that is where these clients belong. And I'm so grateful that there are people out there who work well with people who have severe depression, who I now can send folks to, if that's how they're showing up.

And then I can work with the people who are coming in with the stuff that. It's the right puzzle piece for what I do, right?

Nancy: .Because I remember that a lot of people would be like, I remember, because I had a very similar experience and I was like, this is, I should be able to do this.

Like I really was like, depression and anxiety they go together and then I'm like, we are very different in how they present and the behaviors that go with and someone else needs to be working with this

Riva: , the complexity. I think another challenge around that is then how clients describe their experience is not the same as how we described their experience.

So I still have to say right that I depression. And it's not that I don't, of course everybody, I think personally, I think everybody goes through a depressive period at some point in their lives, so of course there is some of that depressed mood showing up among people in my practice, of course, but so many people will come in and say my problem is depression.

And it's really not, from a clinical perspective, that's not what it is. And so it's like we have to do so much translating of how clients use language to how we would use language and then filter out and in people. Based on, finding the shared meaning under the different words, we're all using for stuff, right?

Nancy: Yes. , absolutely. . Okay. I could talk forever about this stuff. I don't know that people want to listen to it forever, but thank you so much for taking time out of your day to chat with us. And I think this, I think anytime we can, I think therapy has such a Vale for some reason, and anytime we can remove that veil and make it more accessible, we're doing a service to the industry.

Riva: Absolutely. Yes. I completely agree. And it was such a delight to talk to you about all this stuff. Thanks so much for having me.

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Episode 151: How We Store Trauma In Our Bodies

In this episode, I’m talking with Sarah Dionne, yoga psychotherapist and founder of Whole Health Collaborative, about getting out of our heads and into our bodies and how we store trauma in our bodies.

For those of us with anxiety, it’s pretty common to go into research mode and ask ourselves: why am I feeling this way? And if you already enjoy thinking, analyzing, and solving problems like me, well, then thinking and researching why you’re anxious is your go-to pattern. 

When I was writing my book, The Happier Approach, I learned that my default pattern—researching and asking why—didn’t actually serve me. The solution to my anxiety had nothing to do with the why. 

So what’s the solution to anxiety if it isn’t figuring out the why? 

Honestly, I was a little disappointed by the answer.

It’s about getting into your body. 

Moving from exploring our thoughts and opening up to our bodies is very hard for many of us. We live in our heads. We forget we have bodies. But what happens when our bodies have a lot to tell us about our experiences—and we don’t listen? 

In Episode 149, I talked with Nicole Lewis-Keeber about the t-word: trauma. 

In this episode, I’m talking with yoga psychotherapist and founder of Whole Health Collaborative, Sarah Dionne all about getting out of our heads and into our bodies and how we store trauma in our bodies.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Sarah’s unique blend of yoga and therapy and what it means to be a yoga psychotherapist

• The false belief that stopping the thoughts will stop the experience

• How ignoring our bodies and criticizing ourselves is an act of violence against ourselves

• The importance of compassion and how it is key to everything

Resources mentioned:

• wholehealthcollab.com

• Connect with Sarah on Pinterest

• Follow Sarah on Instagram

• Follow Sarah on Facebook

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: So compassion is the first step in compassion helps to disperse the anxiety and the stress because compassion is ultimately love. And then I'm creating the energy of love within my body. And that energy of love is very healing. So I'm already in the process of healing it. When I'm practicing compassion.

Nancy: Before we get into this week's episode, I want to do a quick note a couple of weeks ago, my guest Nicole Lewis keeper, and I chatted about the personal development industry. And we used broad generalizations, especially about the coaching industry. So I want to clarify that the key to finding help from a coach or therapist is to be discerning.

There are amazing coaches and therapists out there, and there are crappy coaches and therapists out there. A quality coach or therapist will be certified and we'll be helping you build the skills to listen to you. Trust your gut, listen to your inner wisdom and remember there's no secret formula.

So now on with this week, though, I love my mind. I love thinking, analyzing, solving a problem. When I have anxiety, my default response is to go into research mode. I asked myself why am I feeling this way? And then while writing my book, the happier approach, I realized that I was going about this all wrong.

My default is not serving me the solution to my anxiety. Has nothing to do with the why you're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

So what is the solution to anxiety? If it isn't figuring out the why? Honestly, I was a little disappointed by the answer, which is getting into your body, getting out of your mind and getting into your physical body. This is so hard for many of us. We live as if we're walking heads. We forget that we have bodies that have a lot to tell us about our experiences.

All this month, we are looking at our pasts. And more specifically, we are talking about the T word trauma today. I'm talking with Sarah Dion, a yoga therapist and founder of whole health collaborative about getting out of our heads and getting into our bodies and how we store trauma in our bodies. Sarah and I talk about her unique blend of yoga and therapy and what it means to be a yoga psychotherapist.

The false belief that stopping the thoughts will stop the experience, how ignoring our bodies and criticizing ourselves is an act of violence against ourselves and the importance of compassion and how it is key to everything. So this month we are continuing our conversation about trauma. The big T I always feel so powerful saying that.

And specifically today to be, we're going to be talking about trauma and our bodies and I have brought in yoga psychotherapist. Sarah Dionne. Welcome Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you. So happy to be here.

Nancy: I'm so excited to have you here. So tell us about just dive right in what's yoga psychotherapy.

Sarah: So yoga psychotherapy is a blend between traditional methods of psychotherapy and the eight limbs of yoga.

So when I say the eight limbs of yoga, I don't just mean as Asana practice, which is the postures that you get when you go to a yoga class. All of the different pieces of yoga, like meditation, like breath work introspection, blah, blah, blah, like all of that. And I mix that. Psychotherapy. So I'm a licensed psychotherapist and I'm also a certified yoga instructor.

So I've put them, I put them both together.

Nancy: So when someone comes to work with you as a yoga psychotherapist, what are the, what is what could they expect? What's that going to be like?

Sarah: So when someone comes to me, there are coming to me as a psychotherapist. So they're looking for therapy, but they're also looking for a way to include their body, which is what we do together.

So I'm not a yoga instructor, but what I should say is that I'm a yoga instructor, but I don't give yoga classes. That's not what it's about. It's about blending together, the physical experience, and also all those eight limbs with the psychotherapy practice. So oftentimes what I'll do is I'll send people home with homework and they'll go home and practice, maybe a yoga posture at home, and then they'll also have some insight or self discovery work to do.

And then we'll talk more about that, the next session. So a lot of my work is about, we go over things in session, but they have, but it's really about the client becoming their own therapist when they go home. Ah, okay. Practicing this stuff. And then when we come back together, okay, what's happened. What's come up and let's talk about it and let's add something to it so that you can continue growing.

Nancy: So it's using these eight principles, limbs, as you said of yoga combined with traditional talk therapy that they can do at home. The actual practice. It's not like you're sitting in a room and people are doing asanas and you're having them talk about themselves.

Sarah: They could, if that's what they felt they needed.

So I might offer something. If they were doing us and us with me, it's not going to be like a yoga class. We might choose one or two postures to do that would benefit their specific need. Got it. If they if they were someone that was dealing with a lot of tension in the chest because of anxiety, we might do some chest openers, or we might also do something that could explore what's going on with their heart center and why they are having a lot of tension there.

And so yoga posture may help to clarify what the problem is…

Nancy: by helping them get into their bodies and not just live up in their heads, which is where therapy tends to put them. Yes. So it's the blending of both. I love that. I think that's where we need to head as an industry.

Sarah: I agree. I agree. 100%.

Nancy: Which takes us into, as someone who is a therapist and has gone to a lot of therapy, one of the things I really like about therapy is that it's cognitive. It doesn't require me to get into my body. And so as someone who doesn't want to get into my body and really deal with those traumas, that's a positive thing, but it's not really a really allowing me to move forward because I'm I say I, and many of my clients, we ha we live as if we don't have a body.

Sarah: I think that it we can move forward to a point. And then eventually our body is going to ask to be addressed. Okay, so it's going to send us, it's going to start giving us messages that something is off. Something is wrong because we're storing the one, one of the things that's really important for people to understand is that the mind and the body are not connected.

They are one full thing.

Nancy: Ooh, Tell me more on that one.

Sarah: So they, there was no way to fully explore the mind without the body and vice versa. And they are functioning as one. So with the mind is communicating to you through the body. So if I'm having anxiety, I'm having bodily experiences of anxiety.

I'm having gut problems. I'm having chest problems, I'm having throat problems. And that is your mind within your body . So your mind, it's not like it's connected. It's all one big thing with all of these hormones and chemicals, not just to be physical biological, but that is part of it with all of these hormones and chemicals going through our bodies that also cycle into the brain and back down through our body.

So it's not just one, we can't separate it.

Nancy: So even though I've tried (laughter),

So what ends up happening… it's the upset stomach. It's the chronic pain. It's the headaches. It's all of these physical symptoms are showing up and continuing to ignore those by just living in only acknowledging one piece of the mind, body of the body gets us.

Sarah: Yes. Okay. It does get us into trouble because we can start to develop all kinds of physical illnesses and problems that we can't figure out such as fibromyalgia, such as it used to be called chronic fatigue, such as ongoing headaches that just have no explanation, ongoing gastrointestinal problems that have no explanation, just weird chronic pain or adrenal fatigue is another one that one's a pretty common one for anxiety.

There, all these things that start popping up and sometimes doctors will say this is the issue. And let's take care of that. The, let's say it's an ulcer that is formed in the stomach because of ongoing stress. So they may be able to medicate the ulcer, but the ulcer is not the problem.

The problem is the anxiety that caused. But if we're not getting into our bodies, and if we don't, aren't able to discover, then it's the ongoing anxiety that's creating the ulcer. The either we'll have to be taking that medication forever or for the ulcer is going to come back. So if we, but if we are able to connect to our body and discover that, oh, this is anxiety being stored in the gut, how can I work through that anxiety?

How can I experience it? How can I let it go? Then I'm going to be able to get to the root of the problem so that I don't have ulcers anymore.

Nancy: Okay. So I'm someone who has irritable bowel syndrome.

I know when my irritable bowel syndrome is acting up, I'm stressed. Like I know there's a link, but I have a problem then taking that any further. So I might recognize, oh, wow. My irritable bowel syndrome was acting up. Oh yeah. It's because of this stress, but then that's as far as I go.

Sarah: Okay. So what I might suggest in a situation like that is first of all, how can I build compassion and acceptance for myself and compassion for my body for developing this issue?

Because a lot of times we get frustrated with it. And then we're annoyed. And then what does that create? More tension, more stress. Yeah. So step a is compassion. Yep. How do I develop compassion for myself and just allow myself to not feel right now. And then the next is compassion for the fact that I feel disconnected from my body rather than why can't I get connected to my body.

It's I have compassion for myself that I am not connected to my body. So it's

Nancy: compassion for the symptoms and then compassion for the fact that I'm feeling those symptoms.

Sarah: Yes.

Nancy: Okay. I love that. I love that double layer

Sarah: So compassion is the first step in compassion helps to disperse the anxiety and the stress because compassion is ultimately love.

And then I'm creating the energy of love within my body. And that energy of love is very healing. So I'm already in the process of healing it when I'm practicing compassion.

Nancy: Got it. Okay. Love that.

Sarah: So then the next step would be doing some chakra work. So if we go down into the gut, that's where the solar plexus is and the solar plexus is, that third chakra that's above the, so when I talk about chakras, I'm talking about like an energy system in the body.

You don't have to believe it. Like I tell people that it's not like you have to buy into any kind of new agey stuff. You don't have to, you don't have to even believe that they're called chakras. I don't care. It's just that our gut, you talk about, you get a gut, feeling, your stomach drops.

I have butterflies in my stomach. They're all about the stomach. So something's going on there? I really don't care what you call it. I call it the solar plexus. That is above the belly button and right below the sternum, the once we've clarified that it's, that having compassion, that's the first step.

And now the chakra work on the solar plexus. So I might do some vision. The energy that I have there and what's going on with that energy. A lot of times we'll have images or thoughts in our mind that is actually the energy in our body. That's just presenting itself as images in our mind.

So if we're like, let's say I'm doing that solar plexus work. And I close my eyes, take some deep breaths and I get a color in my head. Maybe I get black, maybe the black pops into my head. What does black mean to me? That color as in like this absence of light, or maybe I get the color green, what does that mean to me?

And what's the feeling that comes with. Great. Okay. Because different colors resonate with different experiences, different memories, different, if I'm having an experience of absence of light that's a pretty difficult experience, right? There's something going on there.

That's pretty hard. So the solar plexus, typically not for everyone, but typically the assign the color of yellow to it. And if we're experiencing some kind of dull color or we're not even able to connect to the energy there, I would suggest that means that we're having a really hard time with our identity and competence.

And we're having a hard time with security in ourselves and also who is my authentic self, because all of that is here. And also the last thing is power. Am I do I have power over my life? So if we can get into the different chakras, which is also part of the yoga practice. That they, we can figure out a lot of things just by understanding that.

And like I said, you don't have to buy into the new age. If you can still connect with your body in this way. Yeah. And if that's not your belief system,

Nancy: but I so in the process of connecting and I can be like, okay, I see a color red it's, whatever color I see. Because a lot of people get caught up in the right or wrong.

It's my color, my answer, what it means to me. But, when you said yellow, that's just like the standard colored that's assigned to that particular chakra.

Sarah: Typically people experience yellow there. And if we can enlarge. Because when we say solar plexus is the sun.

So like the shining light of you.. So if it's another color other than yellow, there may be something else going on. For some reason that you're not experiencing yellow there. That's like that shining self. And why is it not the shining self? Why is it not that powerful sun?

So maybe it's red. And what does red mean to me? Just for me, what comes to mind for me personally, it might be anger might be irritation, like you're feeling annoyed or agitated. For me not, that's not going to mean the same for everybody, right? Yeah. But that doesn't, but why is that present in my identity?

Why is that present in my, that shining light of me? Why am I feeling this red sense of tension? So what that does is it gives us some way to explore. So this is where it branches into psychotherapy

Nancy: I'm with you. Let me pause. Just because what I love about is it gives me a way to, tap into my body.

Yes. By just looking at colors and feelings it's a useful way to tap in because that can be like, oh, what's the color that comes up. And then what's underneath that. So I love that. Just this first part with the compassion. Because this is where I get stuck. Oh yeah.

Sarah: No, I'm I hope that it's a little helpful. I don't know.

Nancy: I would love that just in my like oh yeah. To think of the colors and the feelings that kind of brings it into a more practical than then, oh my gosh, something's really wrong with me. And I'm a total mess.

I'm in all this denial and I have secret things that I don't know that are happening, but just to break that down. Okay. So then once I figure out it's red, it's anger or I'm irritated. Now, what do I do?

Sarah: So that's just the very personal psychotherapy session, right? That person experiences red, we're going to be whatever that's meaning to them.

We're going to be exploring that for them in particular. So maybe they have a relationship that's causing a lot of stress and is very disempowering. Maybe there's, there's just something in their life that's really creating this lack of self-esteem lack of, self-confidence so we can explore that.

And then what do we do about it? So that might be taking action in life because sometimes we have to work from the outside in, so if I'm, if something is causing a feeling of lack of power, what is it and what do I do about it? So can I take action or is this if we go into yoga the act of acceptance..

So if I'm not accepting of the situation and I can't change it, can't, I cannot change it. Then I have to look at acceptance because if I'm not, then I'm going to be residing in resentment and anger. And that is going to go into the solar plexus and other chakras too. It's just that we're talking about that one in particular.

But so like you start to put pieces together. It becomes like a puzzle. So we start with the body, then we start, what's like experience what's going on in the mind. And then also is there traumas back there that are informing this what's happening and we just start putting a person's puzzle together.

Nancy: So can the body. Inform. I know the answer to this, but the body can inform the trauma. So can I recognize, oh, because I'm repeatedly having trouble in my gut or I'm repeatedly having trouble. Maybe there's a trauma I need to be looking at or is it not that simple. That's just making it way too simple.

Sarah: I think that we don't want to jump. Because sometimes if we say that okay, I'm having gut issues. So there might be a trauma. Sometimes we can begin to have a lot of fear that we have repressed memories and then we're going to start like, oh my God, what happened to me when I was such and such age?

And that's not good either because maybe nothing happened. So we don't want to jump to conclusions that it is a trauma. Could it be? Maybe, but that's not the first place. I'd go. Okay. The first place I'd go is just let's investigate. Whatever it is, if they do have trauma and. And we know that they have trauma, then we're going to think about, is that playing a role?

Because it likely is.

Nancy: Yeah. Because that repressed memories, idea and trauma, obviously they go hand in hand, but I think for a lot of people, that's why they don't want to touch on trauma because it's going to unearth all these repressed memories, which isn't necessarily the case.

Sarah: No, it depends on the person.

Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be very individualized, that's a very visible thing. And some people are going to unearth repressed memories of just very scary. And as like people don't might not want to do that. And so might avoid but other people are not going to. Sometimes that's frustrating for them as because they might have an unexplained something or other going on. And they know that something happens. But they'll never get that memory. And so that's another level of acceptance. But it's not always going to be any one way.

Nancy: Yeah. It's all individualized. Yeah. That makes sense. So why do you think, I know the majority of my clients, I'm in this world as well, are really uncomfortable with our bodies.

Like we, like I said, we really do live from the shoulders up. Is that some of that is obvious. This is societal, but tell me your thoughts on that.

Sarah: First of all, there's nothing essentially wrong with it. There's it's just that it is what it is and it's just limiting. And it we can do lots of wonderful growth and introspection with the mind.

But, like I said, they are functioning as one, so we're only unearthing piece of a part of it and we're not unearthing the rest. So first of all, if someone wants to stay in their mind, okay. That's totally fine. But if they're still having a lot of problems and it's clear that they're going to have to do something to move forward in their self discovery, then if they don't go into the body, then they're going to be living very limited.

Nancy: Because it's all connected

Sarah: . It's all one thing. It's all one big thing.

Nancy: So just mind blowing. When you, like, when you think about even you correcting on the, it's not connected, it's one thing, because we have all heard the mind body connection. Yeah. There's no such thing, right?

It sounds like there's this little wire that runs between the two, but you're saying, Nope, it's all one big thing. Stop thinking it's a thing. It's a body,

Sarah: it's a body and your brain is part of your body. It's not a separate organ. So is my liver. Am I going to call my liver? Is there a liver body connection?

it's just part of my body. The brain is an organ in the body. The liver is an organ in the body. They're all functioning together as one big thing. It just will be limiting on how far we can grow. If we don't explore the body, I never want to shame anybody and say if they're having a very key ingredient is if I'm not ready to go into the body, then I have compassion for that.

Ah, let me reside with compassion for that. Be where I am and when I'm ready, if. Then I'll explore that. Yeah. But so it's still it's okay.

Nancy: Yeah. It's all. Okay.

Sarah: So that's like the kind of the yoga is all about compassion. Like when you go to a yoga class, they'll talk about it, but if you dive into yoga and the practices of yoga, the essential component is love, acceptance, compassion. Those are the, I should say three essential components, but they're really all one, yeah. So that, that's my basis for everything. And because that is the basis of yoga. So when I come from that. I come to the mat at all angles for all people, even if they're not ready to go into the body, even if that's not where they are, it's still total love, total compassion. That's where you are.

And let's just start there. And if that's where you need to reside. Okay let's find love and compassion for that.

Nancy: Okay. So if I'm like, okay, I want to start exploring my body. Then it is about just doing, how would I start that process?

Sarah: So it depends on the person. Some people can do trauma informed yoga.

Okay. So this there's a place in Boston, but I, depending on where someone is in the country, I don't know there aren't a lot, like it's not a widely practiced thing yet. It's spreading and thought. So someone, if they are near someplace, that practices that there is trauma informed yoga, which is a very basic type of deal.

That walks people through it, low body experiences as they practice very basic postures. So you'll be doing self discovery while you're in the yoga postures. So that's one way if someone has that near them, if someone does not have that near them two good ways would be, first of all, visioning, like we talked about visioning inside the body, getting a touch with the chakra system that really engages the thoughts in the mind, but then it's also bringing it down into the body.

So that's one way, another way is meditation. When I meditate, can I connect with the sensations in my body? So can I feel where I'm having pain and can I bring compassion to the pain that I'm having? So I might focus somewhere like on my, if I'm having a lot of pain in my shoulders. So if I'm in meditation and that's distracting, Bringing my mind there and having compassion for that and being with it, that's coming into my body.

That's all coming into my body and for yoga, that's that mindfulness practice. And there's also a part of yoga called Pratyahara, which is stepping back from the senses. So what I mean by that is that you can be, or in your body in observing the pain, but the pain is not controlling you.

Okay. So it's just there and you can see it , you can feel it, something that's going to really influence you in a negative way. So that is being able to really have compassion for the body and taking a step. It's not disconnecting from the body, but it's being able to see it objectively and having just love.

Nancy: Because I think that's the piece. Yeah. For so many of my clients, working with people that have high functioning anxiety, they're pushing, pushing, and the idea of slowing you, just, even the idea of slowing down is going to be painful because that's going to hurt my productivity and I'm not, so the idea of being able, then, that's what I love about what you're saying is that by being the first practice is I'm going to be compassionate.

Or I always say I'm going to be kind to myself, same things by doing that first, then whatever I can, that's the mindfulness practice in another thing.

Sarah: Yeah. Then you can stem from there. Yes. It's the starting point. And throughout the psychotherapy that I, I do and throughout the yoga compassion is always the foundation.

So I start there and then I just bring it with me because I continue forward.

Nancy: And as you're going deeper, it's just compassion.

Sarah: That's just deeper and deeper compassion because once we can get to a point where we're just totally embraced in compassion, we have total self love.

And then we, it's hard for most people even imagine that what is self love? I can't, I don't love myself and I get it. I get it in there . So I get it. It's hard for people to even imagine what that could be like, but when we start from a basis of compassion and continue to build it, eventually, I don't know when for each person, but eventually we can get there.

You can get to a place where, Hey, I'm okay. No matter what,

Nancy: 'because I’m in my body a nd I can navigate from this grounded place. Yeah. I love that. So what got you into the yoga psychotherapy?

Sarah: So I've been in psychotherapy. I got into psychotherapy when I was in, in 2009.

That's when I got into grad school. And before that I was working in the mental health field. Prior to that, I discovered yoga when I was 25. I'm 41 now. So I discovered it when I was 25. And I was dealing with eating disorders and terrible anxiety and also issues that looked a lot like bipolar.

So I was dealing with a lot of stuff at that time in my life, and I discovered yoga. And so I began exploring that I should back up a little bit and say that when I was even younger, when I was like 19. I began exploring spirituality. And what is deeper in life? What is more, I've always been had that kind of interest and what is even out there?

What is all of this, right? What's the point? What's the point of it all. And so then I when I was 25, I got into yoga. When I was going through all of those very difficult things. And yoga brought me deeper into my spirituality and brought me closer to my healing. And then in 2009, I was like, I decided I really wanted to help other people.

And I dove into psychotherapy. However, once I graduated and started really working in the field, what I noticed a lot was how much all of it is in the mind. And I also noticed that a lot of my clients weren't perfect. Ah, okay. So I noticed that people were getting stuck. A lot of people were very stuck.

The people that weren't stuck or the people that had a spiritual practice or some kind of practice in which their whole self was involved. Okay. And they were typically people that, yoga is not the only way. But they would typically someone that were involved in some kind of thing that reconnect, like whether it was running, whether it was yoga, whether it was something that really got them into their body.

Nancy: Okay To build awareness of their body and how they were feeling

Sarah: like Tai Chi They were able to get into their body and feel their body. They were the ones that seem to progress more. Not always, but usually then other people, I noticed that a lot of people stayed the same. And it, there were some people that would progress, but it wasn't like, I was like, there's got to be more. And another thing that I, a lot of people talked about is stability. What will help someone be mentally stable? And I thought, what kind of life is that? That you just get to be stable?

Nancy: That's what I thought. When you said it, I was like, oh

Sarah: . And so when I kept going and kept working in this field and kept seeing that there was, there had to be more, there had to be more. And I kept seeing that we were all, everybody was not everybody, but a lot of people were very much in the mind. And that the trauma work was difficult because we couldn't get into the body.

And all of this trauma was hanging out in their bodies and being in that practice, it was limiting, because of the office space, because of just what the agency would allow. There was just, you were limited. So in two thousands 14, I ha so I went on through this period and I started to grow and I started to change and I started to see that I needed to be something more.

So I got certified as a yoga instructor, I think in like 2013 and began to bring that into the practice. I got certified as a children's yoga instructor. I got certified as the adult yoga instructor. I also started doing things with play therapy for adults and children's Sandtray therapy, like things that were going to get the body involved.

In 2014, I had my daughter and I was thrown into postpartum problems. Like you wouldn't believe like postpartum OCD terrible postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression. It was horrific. And not long after that, about a year after that, I went through what I can only call a spiritual awakening.

And when I went through that, I knew that I had to help people become whole, and I knew that the only way to do that was going to be through embracing the body and mind within practice. I just felt this absolute yearning to help people with that. So I decided to blend the two together and I also founded a little private practice called whole health collaborative.

And it's, that's building, but still in the future, we're going to be including like nutrition and massage therapy and stuff like that. And the body more involved. So I guess all of that stuff informed my absolute belief and combining body with mind and spirituality and therapy.

So I believe that's, what's needed to really embrace total healing. And I, so I guess that's the long story. But I felt, I feel like, that's just how I came around to it

Nancy: because, in therapy. Through the ages and in our, regulations that we have it is very clear no body like it is not something we are taught to include. So in the therapy world, what you're doing, although brilliant is very cutting edge.

Sarah: I think it's more and more now people are really starting to grasp, the necessity of bringing body into the practice. And the use of yoga is something that's becoming more and more.

It's not super out there yet, but it's not everywhere yet, but it's more and the people from India. And around the world have used yoga for thousands and thousands. I think it's been around for about what they think anyway, about 5,000 years. And they were using that in order to explore themselves and move through issues.

And so we're finally catching on over here,

Nancy: right? Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. We're finally catching on. But I am part of that movement. But there are other people out there that I'm really grateful for that are also no seeing and using strategies to involve, but body, mind, and spirit.

Nancy: Yeah.

Because it is a fascinating when you just when, I just think about how that's such a hard, no, of bringing the body in the therapy room and yet, so freaking important, especially with the idea that it's all one,

Sarah: Because what does that tell you? Yeah, we were going into the therapy room when they say, oh, nobody can't talk like, you can't bring that into the therapy room.

Isn't that disconnecting us even more. Isn't that saying that I shouldn't be involved with this thing that his body is saying that this isn't okay, but my body's not okay. And that I should just be residing in the mind. Isn't that the message it is.

Nancy: That's totally the message. And even, I think that's why I loved your thing about the color.

Because I've totally, in all my years and all my years of therapy have been asked, where do you feel that, where do you feel that sensation? But then, and I'll say, oh, I feel it in my stomach or whatever, but then it's never taken any more than that has ever taken any more than that or B it's I interpreted as a shame.

Because I can't really access it, I don't really know what to do with it. Once they say, where do you feel that? And so then I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm totally disconnected from my body. I don't even know that's there. And then I started spinning off rather than your idea of compassion, with whatever comes up.

Yes. And that's the piece I think we miss is that we're quick to judge because our body isn't, especially, us high productivity people, we buy the lie that we're robots and we need to be able to make this body function better. And so the fact that the body isn't functioning better is because we aren't in control.

And rather than being compassionate to ourselves, we're just going to drive it home.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We're basically running it into the ground. Yes. Our body doesn't like w where our mind is just pushing our body beyond what it was meant to do. And very often that's what we're doing.

And some people can do like these, let's say like I said, it's always very individual because you have some people that can run these, like ultra marathons and for them, they're like, you have to be so dedicated to do something like that, but for them that might not be beyond their scope.

Their particular body structure might be able to handle that. And then you might have other people that just like go and they work late at night. And they work with who knows, maybe that's right for them. But then you have people that are not functioning well anymore and are starting to have health problems that are starting to have there's, they're not happy.

They're not fulfilled. They're tired all the time. Blah, blah, blah. They are doing something that is beyond the limits. And no one likes to hear, I have limitations. No one likes to hear that. They're like, I'm not limited. I'm guess I'm strong. And they are Absolutely strong. But your body is a physical entity.

It's a physical thing that needs, it needs compassion. It needs love, it needs rest. It needs kindness. It needs care. And if we don't take good care of what it's asking, then it's going to start falling apart.

Nancy: Yes. Because rather than, what we have been taught is then you just ignore your body and then you don't have to deal with it.

And that is just creating more and more of a mess.

Sarah: Yes. And if we go into trauma, we're talking more about the connection with the body and trauma. And we've talked about ignoring the body and not wanting to connect with it. And I know that this is probably something that you run into a lot with people is that there's just so much shame connected to the body

Nancy: Yes. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up.

Sarah: Yeah. Yes. Very obviously huge issue for people that have experienced a lot of different types of traumas that their body becomes a source of shame because it stores memories because it stores experiences because it also goes through kind of physical experiences of flashing.

And so, it can get re-traumatized through flashbacks. So hence why would I want to reconnect with my body, right? No, I'm not doing that. And I get that completely because it's scary. I don't want to disrupt it. I don't want to, I just want to leave this thing behind.

That makes total sense to me. Like I get it. I get why that feels. That I get why that feels so important for people to do or not important. I get why that is such an urge for people to leave behind their body. But the problem is that since the trauma is stored in the body, it's just going to keep coming back.

And if we're ignoring it, we're probably going to eventually do something to start numbing the body.

Nancy: Yes, there you go.

Sarah: We're probably going to start doing something to not feel the body, whether that like eating disorders. That's a huge one. Yeah. Any kind of food issue, huge one, any type of addiction and it doesn't necessarily have to be a drug addiction.

It could be shopping. It could be gambling is something where it creeps that adrenaline. I'm not thinking about this totally up here in my adrenaline. Yeah. It's like something to get me out, so I'm not experiencing this thing anymore. And obviously severe anxiety, panic attacks, or we get so caught up in the mind that it, we feel like we're completely disconnected from the body.

It's not that the anxiety is created because we're trying to avoid our brains. The anxiety is the result, according our body. And then oftentimes to cope with the anxiety. Yes. Is when we're putting all that other stuff on top of it to shut the body up and to shut the anxiety up. Yeah,

Nancy: because that is totally what I have found, with me, with a lot of my clients, the idea that it is the unhealthy coping mechanisms we have developed around the anxiety that then we'll do things that will start fighting that those symptoms.

So I'll go, I'll stop numbing or I'll stop. I'm going to fight my overeating or I'm going to fight my perfectionism. And then once I start doing that, then the anxiety comes up and I don't have any place. I don't know how to deal with the anxiety because the problem was the perfectionism or the problem I thought was the numbing.

That's just a coping mechanism to what's really underneath there that we haven't figured out until we get that connection built.

Sarah: So if I'm someone some other things that people do cutting or any type of self injury, obviously that's also very anger, a lot of anger towards the body, right?

So all of those definitely ways that people deal with trauma and deal with anxiety and deal with these memories and issues within the body. So I would always recommend to someone first. I'm always talking about,

Nancy: I had someone say to me recently Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be kind to myself. I get it right?

Sarah: Yes. So if I'm someone that is dealing with an eating disorder, whether it's binge eating, that might be it. So if that's me and I'm continuing to binge eat and I'm continuing to numb out the experience of the body, the first thing that I, again, encourage people to do is how do I have compassion for myself, even when I'm binging, even when I'm in, in that addiction or in that behavior?

Because then I can not fight it. So we got to put down the bat. And we can't fight. We have to accept and move beyond. So if I'm able to accept that, I have, if that was someone which I have suffered with binge eating disorder, if I was someone that was dealing with that, the first, the very first thing is to accept that I'm someone that's living with binge eating disorder.

Then I'm someone that's fighting binge eating disorder. I am someone who's living with it. And how I have compassion for me as a person who's living with this. And then as I continue to act out the behavior, I continued to develop compassion towards myself as acting out this behavior, someone that's struggling and that's okay.

Because intrinsically, is there anything wrong with it? There is nothing wrong with it. You can be a binge eater to the moon and back. And is there any, there's nothing wrong with it, right?. We internalized shame about this behavior that has nothing to be ashamed of. Who cares? We care because it causes harm,

Nancy: Yeah. It's not ideal. Like we need to be bringing it out into the air that this is really happening

Sarah: Yeah. It doesn't even matter if it matters in the sense that it's causing us harm. It doesn't matter in the sense of shame. It's not something that is wrong.

Yeah. So compassion shines, like you said, bring that out to the light. Compassion, shines, light on it and says that this, there is nothing wrong with this. Why am I thinking there's something wrong? And then I'm doing something wrong.

Nancy: Yeah. Because from that place, then you can start healing. Not overnight, but it's where you can start dealing with what it is you're dealing with instead of the I'm going through all these hoops of making sure no one else sees that you're binge eating and hiding it from yourself.

Like all the games we'll play in our heads to keep it under wraps. When in that, when it's that idea of let's just honor what's happening.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. Let's just honor what's happening. It is what it is. Obviously that's oversimplifying and if we could all just say it is what it is.

Oh, totally. Yeah. And I wouldn't have jobs. Yeah. So obviously that's oversimplifying. It really is not right or wrong. And that we can live in this kind of space of grace rather than black, white it's, we can live in, like I say, compassion and love for the self. Even if we're doing something that we wish we weren't doing.

And that it can going back to the trauma and how this is all related to trauma the numbing and trying to numb out the shame and the experience of shame in the body. So if we also go back to yoga and the physical experience and connecting to the body, and if we're talking about shame has a very physical presence in the body.

So it's there, it's within you and within your body. So if you're experiencing the thoughts, it's not your thoughts. What is most uncomfortable, what's most uncomfortable is the experience your body goes through because your body starts to do all of this really difficult stuff. It starts to develop all of this.

Like some people have that pit in the stomach or they feel all of this tension and their whole body feels like it's closing up or they feel like they're paralyzed and they can't move. So there that's the body. That's not the mind. So it's not like the thoughts might be perpetuating it, but the whole, but that really uncomfortable experience was my body,

Nancy: yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So the just stopping the thoughts. Does not mean that my body won't react that way,

Nancy: Say that one again. Because that needs to be heard

Sarah: if I just stopped the thought it does not mean that my body won't react that way. So I was working with a man who had post-traumatic stress from, he was a combat vet.

So obviously a lot of really terrible trauma. And he had very severe PTSD, very severe. And it really interrupted his quality of life. And one of the things that was a trigger for him was the smell of gasoline. Okay. And when he would walk by a gas station, like he had coping skills that he put together, but that's not, let me just talk about what would happen.

Like he would walk by a gas station and he'd smelled a gas. He would not have any thoughts, but it wouldn't be a thought. But his whole body would start to react.. His whole, all like his whole body would enter into a place of fight flight, fight, flight freeze. Without a thought. The thought would come afterwards.

. So the body reacts first a lot of the times. And then the thought would come after, because my body has gone into this fight flight freeze mode, which then brings up all of this physical experience of shame, which then goes up into the mind and creates all this stuff. So just by stopping the thought is not going to necessarily stop this bodily reaction.

. So if we go into the body and you start addressing what's happening there, we start to learn about it. We might not be able to completely get rid of it, but we have compassion for it, acceptance, and we have understanding and know how to cope with it. Then we're going to be able to manage it much more quickly and not enter into those really difficult states of PTSD.

And that has all to do with the body work.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Because and my listeners have heard me say this a thousand times, the change, your thoughts drives me crazy. Because it's so much more than that. And we have bought that lie that if I just change my thoughts, everything will be fine.

And if it isn't it is not.

Sarah: No, it isn't. We have to change our innermost beliefs and that's a whole other bag of worms. So in yoga, what we talk about is basically these thoughts that we have over and over and over and over again throughout our lifetime create like kind of pathways in the brain, almost how water runs over a stone and eventually creates this indent.

And that indent is the belief, right? It's really hard for those thoughts to get out of that, in that rut they're in it, because now it's an indent in the stone and the water, or the thoughts are going to want to run down that way. They're going to want to run down that way. And in order to create another path, a lot of work has to happen.

Yeah. Yeah. If we just try to change the thought. What happens is we don't believe it. It's like that's stupid. And we might be trying to like, say I shouldn't believe it. And keeping it to myself. And I'm going to bang my head against the wall and what you don't believe it. And that's useless.

It doesn't matter. You have, there's that samskara, there is that pathway that has been created and it's going to take a lot more than just trying to redirect my thoughts,

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Because then it becomes, I'm beating myself up because I should be able to change this thought and what's wrong with me that I can't, and I should be thinking positive.

Maybe I should be more grateful, like all of that.

Sarah: And then it just makes the pathway deeper. Yes,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nancy: Because I was struck when you said. We about the back to the binge eating and the numbing out, and you were like, you know what? You need to put the bat down. I loved that because that's what we do.

But that is such a Western, even I was because I wrote down like cancer. Like we have I'm going to fight this cancer and I'm going to beat it instead of having compassion for the body that's being attacked in this way and how you know, and not coming at it from such a violent perspective,

Sarah: I couldn't agree more.

I couldn't agree more. Why don't we say I'm for healing? Yes.

Nancy: Yeah.

Sarah: I'm against cancer. Why don't we say I'm for love I'm for equality. Why do we say I'm against racism? Why do we like it's always against always, no matter what it is, I'm against it. That's going to create more anger and more violence.

There's no way around it. It's going to and it's also going to create more anger towards our bodies if we're just, nevermind all those big societal issues, to, if we're just talking about our physical body, we're just creating more anger. We're just creating more violence towards the self.

A major part of yoga is the, is non-violence. Nonviolence obviously doesn't mean outward violence towards other people. Whether it's verbal, whether it's physical, but it also means non-violence to the self that I'm treating myself with absolute kindness and without violent or harmful thoughts, violent, not necessarily being like blood and war violent being.

I hate myself. What's wrong with me? I'm so stupid. Those are violent thoughts because I'm hit, I'm beating myself up. I'll be abusing myself. So non-violence says I am for healing. I am for self-compassion. I am for pick your societal issue. And that creates a well of compassion, which then creates the road for healing.

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm, I just want to leave it there because that is, that's the message that I want people to get, okay. So how could people find out about you or working with you, what you got going on?

Sarah: They can go to my website which is. Whole health collab, We will link to that in the show notes.

Okay. So that, that that link, they can go there. I have a tab there that they can easily message me. There's a message right on the bottom that they can scroll down to. You can even I have a calendar there that you can even schedule your own a free consultation with me..

So I make it super, super easy because I know that it's hard to reach out. And I just want to make it as available as possible. So there's a, you don't even have to message me, go into the schedule and schedule your consultation. A lot of people do want to message me first and I love that. So there is a, there was a form right on the, my, my page.

It says, shoot me a message and just do it right there.

Nancy: Awesome. Great. Cool. We'll have all that information in the show notes so people can get more information about working with you and set up a time, et cetera, et cetera, and get into their bodies. Yes. After this interview with Sarah, I decided to practice skipping my default pattern of asking why I woke up and I felt stressed and I didn't go into my normal litany of all the possible contributors to my stress.

In fact, I didn't have any curiosity about what was behind the stress. I just noticed the stress. I took a couple deep breaths, put my hands on my heart and kept repeating to myself. You're okay. In this moment. You're okay. Right where you are. Then after a few moments I would ask, what could I do to ease the stress, make a cup of tea, go for a walk, call a friend throughout the week.

I practice just giving myself acceptance where I was and curiosity, if anything could be added. And I felt better building this practice allows me to build self loyalty and safety within myself, rather than constantly judging my experience. I can meet myself where I am and unpack whatever feelings or sensations come to the surface.

It was amazingly freeing to not get stuck in justification to not go through the wall.

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