Episode 149: How To Recognize Trauma and Show Up for Our Inner Kiddo
In today’s episode, I am talking with Nicole Lewis-Keeber, a social worker, business therapist, and mindset coach about the T-word trauma and how it plays out in our lives.
Trauma.
This word is loaded for so many of us.
When we think of trauma, we think of what we call Big T Traumas: images of war, combat, natural disasters, physical or sexual abuse, terrorism, or catastrophic accidents usually come to mind.
There are also Little T Traumas. These are often personally traumatic because of the timing, the place, or our emotional state: interpersonal conflict, divorce, infidelity, legal trouble, financial worries, moving, and many more.
Although something could be considered a “Little T” Trauma, that doesn’t mean it’s less traumatic or less damaging. Instead, it allows us to see the word trauma in a different way and realize that it can take on many shapes and forms.
Today on the show, I’m kicking off the month by chatting with Nicole Lewis-Keeber. Nicole is a business therapist and mindset coach who works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their businesses. She's a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master’s in Social Work and has rich and varied experience as a therapist.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
Nicole’s definition of big T trauma and little t trauma and how big T trauma explodes and little T trauma erodes
How the personal development culture keeps us trapped by discouraging us from looking at our past
Why the phrase “inner child” has gotten so much flack and why being willing to listen to your inner kiddo is so important
How our inner kiddos come out in our present-day work and wreak havoc and what we can do about it
Nicole’s tips for finding a quality coach or therapist
Resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Nicole: We have been taught that if it's not big explosive and like life-changing in a moment, then it's not trauma. And that's just absolutely not true. That is a type of trauma. One of the other ones is, as you said, small to your little T trauma, and that is those cumulative experiences that we were have when we are in our formative years, which is usually when we're kids that change how we see ourselves.
They change how we value ourselves. They change how we feel, either responsible for something. And we'd begin to take that information in and it changes us
Nancy: in the professional development world. There is a belief that has been sold to us for too many years. Frequently, when you hear the difference between a coach and a therapist, you'll hear that a therapist makes you go into your past and dig up all your old wounds while the coach just takes you from where you are and moves you forward.
No need to go into the past and dig up all that stuff. I confess that I believed a version of that lie for too many years. I believe that while our past might influence our future, the important part was moving forward. I'm sure this belief was largely influenced by my monger, pushing my high functioning anxiety, self relentlessly toward accomplishing and doing it.
Who has time to look in the past. Let's keep marching forward as with everything in life. It isn't that. It isn't that explainable and it isn't that black and white, the process of personal growth is nuanced. Today. I know that ignoring huge parts of our personal history, won't help us move forward. We have to look at our past if fruit going to heal anything, we have to be willing to go back there and see what we're carrying into our current life, which is why I'm so excited for this episode.
A chance to put down the ever-present push towards the future and dive into the nuance of personal growth. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.
This month, we're looking at our pasts. And more specifically, we're talking about the T word trauma. This word is so loaded for many of us. When we think of trauma, we think of war, natural disasters, physical or sexual abuse, terrorism, or catastrophic accidents. Those are what we call big T trauma. And then there are also the little T traumas.
These are things that happen in our lives that are personally traumatic because of the timing, the place or our emotional state. They can be interpersonal conflict, divorce, infidelity, legal trouble. Financial worries. Moving. Let me be clear because we call them little T traumas. That doesn't mean they're less traumatic or less damaging.
I believe the term loyalty allows us to see the word trauma in a different way because we've gotten so stuck in seeing trauma only in the big T trauma way. I think it's helpful to recognize that trauma can take on many shapes and forms. Today on the show. I'm kicking off the month by chatting with Nicole Lewis, Keeber a licensed clinical social worker with a master's in social work.
She is certified in Brené Brown’s dare to lead methodology and works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their business. She's been featured on numerous media outlets, including fast company and NPR for her work in breaking the stigma of mental health and business ownership.
She writes and speaks about the impact of small T trauma on businesses. But her biggest, most important work is combining therapeutic processes with business coaching to help entrepreneurs build emotionally sustainable and financially successful businesses. On this episode, Nicole and I talk about why the phrase inner child has gotten so much flack and why being willing to go back and listen to your inner kiddo is so important.
How the personal develop culture keeps us trapped by discouraging us from looking at our past Nicole's definition of big T and little T traumas and how big T traumas explode and little T traumas. How our inner kiddos come out in our present day work and wreck havoc and what we can do about it and tips for finding a quality coach or therapist today.
I'm very excited to have Nicole Lewis Keeber on our podcast. And we're going to talk about trauma. Yes. So welcome Nicole, before I I'm excited to have you here. So Nicole is also a social Worker?
Nicole: Yeah, I have a master's degree in social work and I'm a licensed clinical social worker. Okay.
Nancy: And Nicole specializes, or one of the things she works on is healing that inner kiddo as she calls it.
And I was telling Nicole, before we hit record that I have railed against the idea of which is very unusual for a therapist to rail against this, but railed against my idea of inner kiddo and little T traumas. And I feel like I have bought into. Incorrectly bought into all of the stereotypes and the crap, I will say that's around this topic.
And so I'm owning my own skepticism and I'm owning that. I have also talked about it in a skeptical way, and I went to bring, Nicole's going to start us off this month. We're talking about all things, trauma Going to start us off by dealing with my skepticism around this topic. So we're going to dive right in.
I love your phrase, inner kiddo. And a lot of times when we hear about healing, our inner child, the phrase inner child can be loaded. So I want to break it down and make it a little less scary for people. What does that mean and why is it important to be aware of our inner kiddo?
Nicole: Yeah, you're right. Like the, it does feel very loaded.
You, what comes to mind is like almost deep shamanic workers, something like go in and do a soul retrieval or, and not that those things are great. I know people who've benefited from things like that, but it does, it feels very heavy. And so that's one of the reasons why I say inner our kiddo, because I think it, it lightens it a little bit.
And really what it boils down to is that. As human beings, the thoughts, feelings, or behaviors we have as adults. They come from our experiences when we're kids, that's how we become who we are. That's how, the patterns of our behavior gets set in place. And so many of those experiences that we have that create that adult self
Are connected to experiences that we had when we were kids that made us think or feel something about ourselves in relationship to the world around us. And so when you look back, a lot of the times you can say, oh my gosh, when. For instance, when I was six years old in the first grade I was in the regular reading group and then I couldn't read the I'm still bitter about it.
I couldn't read the word lion because I couldn't read the word. I got demoted to a different reading group that was low.. And so that six year old, that was the very first initiation into my inner kiddo. My six year old, six year old inner kiddos saying, we're not smart.
We don't get it right. Which was reinforced multiple times over the years because I have alerted learning difference and prophets to process information differently. But that's six years. That first experience of being punished in a way for not being able to read a word, oh, she is still there.
So that is an inner kiddo of mine that got created that still whispers in my ear at 49 around things that I do in my life that require me to put myself out there.
Nancy: So it is just fascinating. It's like a duh, obviously the things we're going to have done as a, as the things that are going to have happened to us as a child are going to affect us growing up.
But I feel like the self-development world has said, especially one of the things that drives me the most crazy is in the differences between a therapist and a coach is they will say they being the coaches will say I will take you from now and move you forward. And those nasty therapists, they make you go into your past and pull stuff up and it's just yucky.
And so we don't want to do that. So we're just going to go. Forward and that just doesn't work
Nicole: . No. And what shaming language is that you did to abandon the first part of your life that you had before you met this daggum coach? That's telling you that none of that matters, and I get it.
When I started my own business, I was a money mindset coach for small business owners and entrepreneurs. And I. Really got taught a lot about mindset, tools and tricks and how not to focus on the past. We want to move you forward. We want to do this, want to do that. And I could not abide it for very long because I just saw that you know who we are, I'm trained with Brené Brown and her Dare to Lead processes.
So one of the things she says is who we are, is how we lead. Who we are came about by these experiences that we had. And then for a coach to say, we're going to ignore the first half of your life to help you be successful in the next chapter of it. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and it doesn't work and it's dismissive and bypassing and gaslighting.
And I don't like it.
Nancy: talk more about that. That it's dismissive and bypassing and gaslighting.
Nicole: I'm being really dramatic here. (laughter)
Nancy: No please, I think we need to, I think we need to dramatize this, bring this up. Put an exclamation point on this?
Nicole: Exactly. Because I've been a therapist, I've been a coach.
That's why my clients now call me a business therapist because I'm somewhere in the middle and I've been in therapy. I get it. It's dismissive because you're not meeting. If you're a coach and there's a lot of h arm done by coaches in the industry. And I'm sorry to say it is true. In fact, there's a lot of coach abuse that happens, which again, sorry to say, but it's true.
And what happens is that when someone's asking you to dismiss the thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and patterns that you have in your life, where do you go from there? What you go, where you go from there is you begin to mimic what this person is telling you to do, to be who they're telling you to be, to buy into their one trick pony model to change, all these people.
So it's dismissive because it does not allow for you to be who you are to understand yourself in a new way. And it's gaslighting because they're trying, I'm being really dramatic here. It's gaslighting because it is. It's having the experience of someone saying that wasn't true for you. You just weren't looking at it the right way.
Nancy: Oh yes. I don't think that's dramatic at all because I think that happens all the freaking time.
Nicole: And you should have the same experience of all these clients I've worked with, who come from diverse backgrounds, different experiences, different motivations, different opportunities. You should be able to have the exact same outcome that they have because.
Let's ignore everything that happened to you up to this day. That is gaslighting.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I felt that's dramatic at all because I think that is, that just repeats the process of what I'm experiencing. Isn't accurate. So I need to go outside of myself and figure out what they're experiencing and then swallow that as my experience.
And then it just sends us down the spiral again and again,
Nicole: It doesn’t bring all the versions of you with you. And that's why I love the in our kiddo work is because when we do this work, we bring your six year old. We bring your eight year. We brought your 16 year old, who can be a real, hell on wheels bias, but she's really fantastic in a lot of areas in my life and others, not so much, but she gets to be a part of it.
So we are not bi- passing her. We are not leaving them behind. They're getting healed with us along the way. And I think that is a true aligned experience in our life as we are healing and becoming the next version of ourselves when no one gets left behind. Yes.
Nancy: Because I think also, part of where I got dinged on it or messed up with it, or didn't enjoy being the inner child work was when I was doing my training.
And one of the. Professors would be, was very much in the model of, he was a narcissist He said it himself. It wasn't like, yeah, I should have known red flag right there. But he said he would pride himself on being able to talk to someone and then be like, oh, it wasn't this bad, but your dad wears blue pants.
And so now you don't like any man that wears blue pants and it was just like those connect and there wasn't any, is that true for you? Or does that resonate with you? It was just like, let's make these bizarro connections that I'm, I think it's scary to think. I might be unconsciously acting out things that I'm not even aware of.
Nicole: Yeah. And we all are though. Yeah,
Nancy: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so rather than facing that, I have been. Then no, I just, I can't, I push it away rather than being in the past, few years I've started being like, let's look at that rather than running from it.
Nicole: Good. Hey you are in company, excuse me. I was in the therapist's office as a therapist.
With her talking to me about, so what have you done to work on your trauma? And I'm like, yeah, I don't really think what I had was trauma. Like I was a therapist in the therapist chair yelling, or I still did not think that my trauma was trauma. Cause he wants to look at any of that.
No fun. Who wants to go back and think about your seven year old? Scary. Yeah. So I get it. Yeah.
Nancy: So let's talk about trauma, the big T word cause. And cause a lot of people have this definition. If I wasn't sexually assaulted it, that's the one I hear the most. If I wasn't molested, I wasn't sexually assaulted.
So therefore I have no trauma that it has to be some big T trauma, but really these little and not that big T trauma is, Yes. And there are little T traumas that happen all the time. And there is them the comparison of my trauma isn't as big as your trauma. So therefore I don't need to discuss it.
Nicole: Yeah. Brené brown calls that comparative suffering. Yeah. Again, been there, so yeah, let's unpack that a little bit. We, as we, as a culture, we don't like to talk about our feelings a whole lot. And we certainly don't like to talk about things, like trauma. And so we give very, a very small wedge of attention to what we will allow to be trauma.
And so as a culture, we tend to look at trauma as those big T traumas, catastrophic illness, violent violence or maybe you got in a really dramatic accident or Natural disaster know, stuff like that. You have PTSD, like combat trauma. Those are really the only places that we allow for anyone to.
To trauma, you had childhood child abuse these things. Yeah. And even then we don't have a comfort level where we allow people to really address it and get the appropriate attention and treatment for it. So we've barely allowed anyone to define trauma from a big T standpoint. We certainly, aren't going to make a lot of room for people to look at it from a small T standpoint.
Yeah. And to be honest with you, a lot of the small T traumas are connected with the systems around us and need us to be traumatized in order for them to work. And which is big, but yeah,
Nancy: talk about unpacking something
Nicole: So we have been taught that if it's not, big explosive and like life-changing in a moment, then it's not trauma and that's just absolutely not true.
That is a type of thing. There are other types of trauma and one of the types of trauma there's many of them, and I'm not going to go into all of them right here. But one of the other ones is, as you said, small T or little T trauma. And that is those cumulative experiences that we were have when we're in our formative years, which is usually when we're kids that change how we see ourselves.
They change how we value ourselves. They change how we feel either, responsible for something. And we'd begin to take that information in and it changes us. It changes how we see us and it can be things like maybe, you got bullied at school and I'm not talking the extreme. Bullying, but maybe just like everyday this, we don't want to play with you, or like me, I grew up with a learning difference and I'm 49 back then. They did not. I'm like back in the olden days, it was severe or learning disabilities, that any, if anyone got any attention whatsoever for their learning difference. And so I went through 12 years of school.
Not being able to learn the way I was being taught and just feel every day, going to this place every day and feeling lost, that is a traumatic experience and not a lot of people would consider to be trauma moving around a lot and always being the new kid having, a parent who's working all the time and you don't have their attention the way that you need.
Form your identity or your sense of self from this adult. Who's important to you. We could go on and on about how these small T traumas can show up for us that are very different for us. And, but they change how we see ourselves. And so I always say that big T trauma explodes, small T trauma erodes, but they are both powerful enough to move mountains.
because we don't identify those experiences, like getting made fun of, and with your book report or w not having money for lunch every day, whatever it may be. Like, it can be different for you. Whatever that is, we don't look at it towards trauma and therefore we internalize it and think that was just me.
Or maybe I deserved it, or everybody has a bad experience at school. I'm no different. And it takes away our agency over those. And people just accept it. They're just like, yeah, it was just stuff that happened. And a lot of times we don't make those connections that your best friend, not being your best friend anymore.
When you were 13 and went to junior high school impacts the fact that you have a hard time with your partner. I do a lot of business work with the partner that you have in your business right now. It absolutely does. Yeah, it absolutely does. And so there's small T traumas add up and they're usually more, covert and hide under the surface a bit, if they're a little bit harder to upack and make those associations and understand those patterns, unless you're willing to go back and look at that seven year old and say, what was it about that experience that you're still feeling now?
Yeah, but again, we don't look at trauma in the way as a culture and as a society in ways that allow for people to work through this process. So when you said earlier, like I didn't look at it and want to look at it. We are not socialized to look at it.
Nancy: Yeah, totally not. And, but it's interesting, even that example you gave, I remember sitting in my therapist office and having her say that's a little T trauma and me being like oh no, and it was, it's a story I tell over and over that I went to college andI did not fit in.
It was a bad fit for me in and I was miserable and. And all the things I did in that time to, to try to fit in. And I didn't, and I was like swimming upstream. And that affected me, like in my ability to make friends as an adult, in my ability to talk about my college experience, because everyone else had an amazing college experience, but mine sucked and what's wrong with me.
And. But all of those things that I could say to you now, oh yeah. This major, legally affect my life. Even saying that I'm still embarrassed to say it was a little.
Nicole: Yeah. We've been socialized not to. Permission slips are a big thing permission to, feel it and I said earlier I did have, I had small T trauma.
I also had big T trauma. I had a parent who was very abusive, and even still sitting on that couch because it was a couch sitting on that couch. I still said I don't know that I would go so far as to say what happened to me was trauma. And she was like, Yes it is. And I was like, yeah, but she, it wasn't like, a good time to penny.
Did you watch that show?
Nancy: No. No.
Nicole: Okay. I'm dating myself again. It wasn't like, the afterschool special where you see the kid, abuse and neglect, like what, the way that people think about it. So I would say, and again, I was a therapist still saying this out loud, cause it had to do with me.
And I was like, I don't really know if it would. And I said, but all these other people who have all these terrible experiences, I see those as trauma. I just don't know if I get to have I get the claim, that word, like I deserve it to be that word, which is so messed up when you think about it. But it was so very true.
Cause I hadn't really allowed myself at that point. To see that those things were in fact big T and small T traumas, until I could really understand that I couldn't move through the process to heal it.
Nancy: Yeah. Because that was the, the irony is once I, once she said that to me, I think that's a little too trauma.
And then I came home and I shared that with my husband, which took everything I had because I'm sure I was sure he was going to be like, get over yourself. I then was like, Gave myself so much more grace and kindness around it, and then could see it playing out in my life. And when I would go into social situations would be like, you're not 22, you're 47.
Get it, we can do this, we are that we're not replaying this. And just that little permission to be like, this was a big deal. Helped so much, but if we don't give ourselves that this is a big deal. We're constantly minimizing. And then I would be the first to share with someone how much I hated, I had this demonizing of my college of the university, how much I hated it and it was miserable and I'll tell them, I would tell people not to go there.
But that was because of my own little T trauma that I'm like throwing up all over the world about
Nicole: exactly. Beause what does trauma do? It creates a pattern, right? And so the traumatizing experiences tip sometimes goes away or the traumatizing person goes away their circumstance. And what happens is we pick it up after that point and we continue to traumatize ourselves with the experience of it.
Like we pick it up at that point, we become the person playing out the pattern, the belief system around it. It becomes ours at that point. So no matter what the trauma is, that's a pattern that happens around trauma and that you can see play out in that. And that's how it works. But if we don't allow ourselves to see it as a trauma, then we miss those opportunities to see how those patterns.
Really happen. And I was at a retreat couple of years ago that I was asked to come be a part of, and my goodness, there were people in that room that were tentatively rolling out the fact that they had a sexual assault. And they're like, yeah, I guess maybe that was probably a small T traumas and I'm pulling my hair out.
It was a big T trauma and you can't even let yourself have that, oh my goodness. name it!
Nancy: And you think that is socialization.
Nicole: Yes. Mostly socialization. Yes. Yes. Because lifts, if you grew up in, you had an abusive parent, if you grew up in a system around religion, like these systems around us usually are the ones that are participating in some of those traumatizing events.
And so what benefit do they have? They have, let us experience them. Speak about them and get help with them. We get socialized too, childhood's rough, no one had a great childhood, just suck it up and deal with it. Or, works just like that corporations are evil. Like we just get socialized into just shut up and deal with it.
Nancy: Yeah. So how, because even as I'm talking, is that even if my monger, I call my mom the inner critic, my monger is saying. Oh, that was such a stupid example you gave, as someone has such a bigger trauma and you're giving your freaking example from college. Come on, like that's, it's insidious.
Nicole: Yeah, our inner critics are very loud.
And honestly, I always say you have a loud inner critic. It means that you probably had a lot of, Hey, I probably have more childhood trauma that you need to unpack. Because I really believe, I think our inner critic is there for a lot of these there's people who tell you, as a part of our nervous system, it's a part of us.
That's supposed to keep us alive and keep us on the straight and narrow as far as, our reptilian ancient nervous system and our, our. Prefrontal cortex, right? Yeah. It's really new part of our anatomy, old brainstem and system is really geared towards like that list. Scary. Don't do that.
What can I do to get you not to do that? Can I berate you internally until you don't do the thing? Like it's a truth thing. But I always say that I feel like our inner critic is connected to our inner kiddos and that it's a protector of them. And so that's why I always tell people, I'm like, don't shut down your inner critic.
Don't dismiss it. Don't say it, kill it, fire it, all the things we tell you to do get curious about it because it's usually protecting some inner kiddo that needs some attention.
Nancy: So how would you do that?
Nicole: This is what I do. I say. So when my inner critic starts to get up there, I'm like, okay. So I'm doing what I'm experiencing feels unsafe.
Right or it feels vulnerable. Like I just shared an experience and I'm comparing it to what other people might think trauma is. And so my inner critic is trying to put me out, get me back on track, show me not to do that thing anymore, or to protect the younger version of me. And so what I will say is I hear you, I'm listening.
And what oftentimes say all the time. Cause sometimes your inner critic's just being the pain in the ass, but they, 80% of the time, what will happen is the inner critic, voice will step aside in a younger voice version. It sounds. And I don't have multiple personality. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's what people are afraid about.
When I talk about this work, they're like, you're going to make me, oh, get the Sybill, from the seventies. No, that's not how it works. What will happen is a younger version of voice will say I, I, it feels like the Lunchroom, in school and the first day again, that didn't feel nice.
I didn't like that. Where do I fit? I don't feel like I belong somewhere. Like when you take a breath and you say, I hear you what do you need here? A lot of times I'll come up and then you can attend to it and say, oh, you're right. That did feel like the first day of school in the cafeteria.
When you can't find your place and you don't feel like people know you and you feel misunderstood. Like I totally get that. And I'm so sorry. And you're still. We're good. We're good. Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah, because that's, when I first, I talk about acknowledging your feelings, like that's, when you hear your inner critic talk, then, start acknowledging your feelings.
But the trick to that is really what you're saying is you have to go, it's not just what I'm feeling right now. Like you have to be willing to go a little under the surface because sometimes you might be thinking you're feeling angry or ashamed, but you're really sad or and fearful because the inner kiddo is sad and fearful from that example.
So it's a deeper work than just. Acknowledge your feelings, which people can do like mindlessly, if that, like they can name off their feeling mindlessly, but you ground into the feeling
Nicole: exactly. Why am I having these feelings? I can identify them, but like, why me? Yeah. Because you felt this before, and you felt this before in a place in time when you didn't have a lot of power and agency over your life.
And that seven year old still thinks that she doesn't have any power or that, not having, not having a seat at that table means something about her, and so when you can unpack that my 49 year old self knows that's not true. And that we're no longer there and that, perfectly fine, but she doesn't know that.
And so you have to catch it.
Nancy: Yeah, yeah. And that's a lot of times, one of, I remember a client of mine who said the most powerful thing I ever said to her was to remind herself that she's not eight years old, like to be like I'm 47. And she said she's cause I walk around like an eight year old all the time.
Absolutely.
Nicole: I can't tell you how many people were running their businesses from their 12 year old self, but actually every day, a lot are running the PTO meetings from their 12 year old. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Or Instagramming from their 12 over their 15 year old self.
Nancy: Exactly. They're 15. I can totally see that.
Yeah. But it is such an unconscious. Thing that's playing there. And so that's what's so what has been interesting just in my own personal journey, professional, whatever personal now from professional to personal is the idea that Once I started tapping into it is about building a self loyalty. It is about acknowledging your feelings.
Then I couldn't ignore those inner kiddos anymore. Like they had to see them cause it wasn't just about thinking positive and mindset and being, all that bullshit. It was, a deeper work and that has made all the difference. But it's not easy and it's not comfortable and it's, but we spin our wheels on the thinking positive and the mindset stuff and the surface, we're just spinning our wheels at that surface level.
When dropping down into the, into what's really there is where it's.
Nicole: Yeah. And it's true. It's absolutely true what you're saying and it mindset work. It works right. It can, but you have to have done some work prior, at least in my belief is that you have to have done some work prior to allow yourself to know that there is a choice to be made.
If you have trauma operating, it is so unconscious. And it's so instantaneous you, when you think about polyvagal theory and the fact that we've decided we were safe or not, before we even put our foot all the way into our room, because our nervous system is working, at that level. How are you supposed to believe in law of attraction if you've already, if your nervous system, because of trauma has already made that up before you even have the choice to make the decision.
There's work that has to do before that. And I'm all about, claiming a positive outcome. I'm all about choosing to see something in a new light, but not at the expense of, bypassing my humanness and my emotions. And also, I don't want to tell myself that being sad.
Angry disappointed any of those things are bad things. They are a part of who we are and we get to experience all of them. So again, that we've been socialized, not to claim our full self in that includes mad, sad, glad, and when we go straight to the positive, my dear cousin, as a coach on transformational positivity, I love her.
I don't know how we both came from the same family, but I love her. And it's really all about she's like I had no interest in you and being Pollyanna. I have no interest in you being a human doormat. Positivity has nothing to do with that. If it's transformational, positivity around how you choose to see the world, because you've done your work to have agency and sovereignty over yourself.
And when did we get told to do that, right? Yeah. Let's just do that. So I love to hear what you're saying about the work that you've done, so that you can see the mindset stuff and the positivity, cause it is bullshit. It is absolute bullshit until you allow the other stuff to work first,
Nancy: because even the idea of saying reminding yourself, you're not eight years old, And you're 47 is if you haven't done the work around that, of what that really means, that's just a mindset shift that won't hold.
Nicole: Nope. We'll hold. Beause you have to trust for the stuff to work. All the law of attraction stuff you have to trust and believe that it is possible. And if you have trauma and you have a seven year old, just a wounded, no, that's not happening.
Nancy: Yeah, because you could go into the meeting and fake it, that you're a 47 year old, but that seven year old inside of you is still,
Nicole: she's calling bullshit on you and your critic gets really, your critic gets really pissed off
Nancy: .Yeah. That is that is I'm I, that I'm speechless, which doesn't happen very often. Cause I really want to it makes me so angry. The. How this industry is con is messing this up so much and the socialization piece because everyone, I, everyone I talk to is railing against this. That sucks.
That's extreme to say everyone I talked to, but a lot of people are railing against this. So even in your, so your business is you're working with helping people solve this stuff for their business. Do you. And so the people that are buying in to you have to be. Is there a level of convincing them that this is important?
Nicole: Yes and no. So I would say 80% of what I do when I speak, do you know a workshop work with clients, coaching? I don't really call it coaching, but whatever I don't know what it is. Transformational work. Is education. Okay. Because we have been so taught that what trauma is and what isn't.
And so a lot of it really does have to do with educating and shining a light on how this is different so that they can let go of the shame, guilt responsibility. The should to really allow for that even still their needs buy-in. Cause what they can see is they can see that their business has become unmanageable.
And I'm just using this as example that their life has become unmanageable, their businesses become unmanageable and no matter what they do to try and fix it, it's not quite working because. They don't have the full picture. They don't have the inner kiddo work. They haven't recognized that the experiences they had were trauma as an in fact, which requires a different lens to see it through.
They don't see that, they keep hiring employees, but they don't let them do their job. And so they end up with all the work still in their lap and a salary to cover. So they see the pain points if you want to call it that, but they still need some convincing that. It is that.
And so I'm constantly saying, that's because this was a trauma and not, a one-time experience or that was because your seven year old doesn't let his, is projecting onto this person or is triggered by this type of client or, if a constant unr aveling to help people really understand that it's not an overnight thing.
So the buy-in has to be continuous around it. It really does,
Nancy: but it would be to see the transformation in your business would be. I don't know what you're doing to me, Nicole, but I'll keep doing it because I'm seeing this transformation in my business.
Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Yep. It's you know, I've worked with people who have businesses or people who are CEOs, whomever it is when you can see that you have an inner board of directors who is making decisions about what you were doing in your career business, whatever.
And that the majority of them are under the age of 18. And that they are very concrete thinkers. When you can see that and you can attend to that piece of it and bring them on board or send them off to have a cracker or give them a job, like whatever that may be, then, everything can change.
Your situation, your relationship with your money can change. The relationship with your business can change your relationship with yourself changes. It's just very impactful, and one of the things that, I keep talking about Brené brown, cause I just finished up a cohort or dare to lead with people.
And so she's in my brain. But one of the things that she'll say is, what is the story I'm telling myself about this? And when we can do that, when we have these challenging experiences, it helps us train ourselves to see things differently and make different choices and feel a different way about ourselves.
And so it's very expansive. Once you can do this work.
Nancy: Cause I know for me, like in my business, I know I'll hire someone and then I eventually get, oh, the last time it happened, it was I held it off for longer than I normally do, but it would happen that I would end up abdicating my business to them.
So I would hire an assistant and then they would come in with some ideas and I would just be like, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. And I would let go of the reins and let them take it. And then eventually would be mad at them. For taking the reins in the wrong direction or being too bossy or not letting me up my business, like I would turn it on them.
And I saw that happening years ago. Like I knew that's what I was doing, but it wasn't until I said to myself, wait a minute, this is a pattern from childhood that you would abdicate. You had to abdicate and get, you have to, and someone else, my dad was very domineering. He took over and that was great.
And he would tell me what to do. And it was really comfortable for me. That's a really comfortable place to be and really uncomfortable all at the same time. And so it wasn't until I really started unpacking that. And even more so than the recently when my last virtual assistant she had, she found a full-time job, so she left, but I noticed it was starting to happen.
Like I was starting to do that same pattern. And so it's just fascinating that it's more than just looking at, oh, there's the pattern. Let me change my mindset. But about, I got to go back there and unpack that and see where it starts to happen and be like, oh, there it is. You're abdicating right there.
Nicole: Was this myself with as much self-compassion as you can, right? Because it is a trauma pattern and patterns have to be disrupted and they have to be disrupted more than once. And we have to build out the new way of being right, building those new neuropathways like we've got this entrenched way of being.
It's not going to be easy or natural to move into this new way of being until awhile. And that's why unpacking this and having this knowledge about ourselves and being able to look at it in ways that are not as connected to shame and blame about this is what happened. This is the pattern it created.
This is how I've been showing up. This is how I want to show up. And these are. Kiddos. I need to get on board for that. This is a trauma I need to recognize and to do so with as much, self compassion and grace as you can, because that's, what's going to make all the difference.
Yeah. Like you just said that pattern, that you've noticed and recognized you're going to catch it sooner than next time, or you're going to put this stuff in place. So it doesn't end up being that way where you say, the final decision will always come to me, and we will discuss it, but I always get final say, and this is how we.
Operationalize that you tell them. I tell you what the final say is you tell me what you're going to do to enact, to make it happen. And then I say, yep, that works. We're on the same page. Let's go do it. Yeah. More steps, more work. And it, in the long run, it's easier.
Nancy: Yeah, because for the, it was annoying for the assistants.
Because they were like, wait a minute, you told me you changed the rules. You told me to do this. Then now all of a sudden you're mad at me like, which I could see that, but I couldn't see it. You know what I'm saying? I couldn't see the hook yeah. Where it was coming from. Yeah, and even, like the idea of when this is totally left field, but the idea of I'm always amazed.
My dad died a few years ago and the how your body can sense the trauma before you can. And so it'll be January and all start feeling goofy. And more memories of him will come in or that's when he died, and it will hit my body before it hits my mind of, oh yeah. That's what's, that's what we're feeling sad about.
Yeah,
Nicole: Our body knows. And when we ignore it or stuff, what, what happens? It shows up in our body first with illness or an injury, our bodies will not let us off the hook when it comes to processing stuff or paying attention to it. We ignore it, but our bodies are wise. And I don't know if this is a term that people call that I used to call it a sense memories because I would wake up and be in the most fallow mood and could not figure out like, what is up with this day.
And then eventually figure out, oh, that was the anniversary of my parents' divorce. I don't pay attention to those dates really. But my body's oh yeah, it's June 18th or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of wisdom there
Nancy: there. Yeah. A ton of wisdom there. Okay. So what are your, so keeping in mind as we've lambasted the entire.
Personal growth industry.
Nicole: There's a lot of good folk up in there.
Nancy: So what are some of your tips for help for helping people find good people to work with?
Nicole: Yeah. Investigation there is a fair amount of personal development that you can do on your own. I really do believe it. Like getting into the awareness state then started to.
Get curious about where this might show up for you. There's things you can do when you're reading books, taking, watch it over or whatever that, at some point we need someone to hold space for us or hold the container for us to let go our defense as much as possible and begin to do some of that healing and transformational work.
You can't do that on your own as well, because you know how people say you can't read your own label when you're inside the jar, right? Yeah. And nor should you. If you're doing this work, you should not have to do this alone, right? Yeah. You deserve to have someone hold you and create, some safety for you to be able to relax a little bit.
People love the personal development world and I'm not opposed to what I've benefited from that a lot, but what allowed me to be able to benefit from some of it's because I had done some work in therapy first, right? And to be perfectly honest with you, a lot of people in the personal development world found one thing that worked for them and that's what they teach.
And they can't always attend to people who have something different than them, or, they were a marketer who went through some personal pain. They were someone who has a marketing background, who went through a personal transformation. And now to share that with everyone, we come to it, how we come to it.
So any aha moment I think is valuable, right? Yeah. I'm not crediting that, but I think that what comes next is who do you choose to work with? You know if you've had trauma, if you identified, Hey yeah, this was trauma. I really want you to be in, in capable hands. And so my go-to always is listen.
That is a childhood trauma. It, and I really feel like that if you should probably work with a therapist who's trauma informed. So maybe someone who maybe understands internal family systems, because that's a lot. Like this inner kiddo stuff and like the parts of yourself, that's very much like internal family systems.
And so I will tell people I'm like you deserve to have someone to support you through this. What is it that you're looking to get relief from? May not know what it is specifically, but how do you want to feel differently? Can you do this in person or do you need to do it virtually, like what works for you?
And do you need to use your insurance to help you pay for it? That's a whole different, category. And so it could, whether it's a therapist or whether it's a healer or, whether it could be a trauma. And I'm just going to say a trauma, at least the trauma informed coach. If you're going to work with a coach, please make sure that you interview them and get references and look at their work.
Make sure they've been around longer than six months. You understand that they are I trauma informed or trauma. Yeah, please. Yeah. You don't want anyone to just unpack, in your psyche, right? They can, a lot of harm can be done. So I would prefer that people start. If they've got trauma, start out with a therapist, if that's at all possible.
That's always my preference and go-to because I know they have a base skillset and licensing body, typically that's overseeing them. That will keep you safe. Like you'd be safer. Yeah. Afraid to interview the therapist. Don't be afraid to interview them and find out are you a good fit? Do you have, are you like-minded in some ways where I live here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, it's a very conservative area is a very religious based area.
And so it is hard to find a therapist here. It's getting better, hard to find a therapist here that is not. Trained and has a platform that is very much sacred, and religious base. So if that's important to you, then you need to do some interviewing and, I always tell people I'm like people give more effort, trying on and finding the right pair of jeans and they do finding a therapist and they throw up their hands.
Say it didn't work. No, go to the next one. You deserve this. Try again. Give it three sessions before you decide, because we're not mind readers. We can't know what you need all in the 45 minute span of working with someone to get rid of minute as well. So that's a long answer to say that I really want you to.
If you can start with a trauma informed therapist, if you are recognizing that you have some kind of trauma.
Nancy: Yeah. I wanted a long answer because a lot of times, it was just like, oh, hop on psychology today, ended up blah, blah, blah. But I, but that idea of interviewing your therapist and paying attention to everything, how they respond to your emails, how they respond to the phone calls, if they are willing to be interviewed, if they're, if they're, all of that stuff just is.
Investigative work, as you said in, cause this is someone I'm going to be sharing my deepest innermost thoughts with, I need to click with them and not just abdicate to them that they know everything. And I know nothing. It needs to be a partnership.
Nicole: It absolutely needs to be a partnership. And if you keep finding fault with every single person, then, what is you, your inner critic and your resistance is railing its head and that's okay.
And you can call it out and say to the therapist, I'm having a lot of resistance, like I'm finding this thing and that thing, like it's okay. We're we don't allow ourselves to have honest conversations about this and that they are not God, they can't read your mind and that this is a partnership.
So the more honest and open you can be, which I know is hard. The better and easier it will be for them to partner with you in the healing process for you. That is, that works for you, not what worked for the client before them, or that works for everyone who read that book or whatever,
Nancy: yeah.
Thank you for giving all that information, because that's really helpful for people because I think therapy and this work just sounds, we make it somewhere. Scary and threatening than it actually is. And we need to own that. It's scary and threatening, yeah. So anything else you would want people to know? Before we close up.
Nicole: So I also want to say, I know some highly skilled coaches that are niched into one specific area that they've done a lot of work, but that this is their thing healing, the, The challenging relationship between mothers and daughters.
That's not, I just want to say, that's not to say that there aren't people in the transformational healing, coaching world that aren't doing really good work. I know people who are doing fantastic work and they have the opportunity to really help people with this one thing. Because.
They've really done all this research and they have extreme expertise in it in a way that maybe, a generalist, a social worker therapist, like myself could have a general idea of it, but not the very specific drill down knowledge, that this person has. Want to discount that there are people out there doing good work.
Just to call that out and also to say that, if you can avoid going to the yellow pages or making some kind of random choice when it comes to a therapist, the people, if you feel comfortable, your doctor, people, peers, friends, they probably have a line on a really good therapist already.
People don't talk about it. They probably do to allow your people in, to know where you're at and what you're looking for as well. Yes. And
Nancy: a lot of times the therapist, like if you're interviewing therapists, they may have, I am quick to say I don't do trauma. I am not, I don't have the inner family systems.
That is not something I've studied, but here are some names of people that I know are good. So a therapist will be able to refer you to people too, if you. That's another way of getting more information. Yeah.
Nicole: I refer people to therapists all the time. I'm like, this is not the work I do, you need to see a therapist first before we do this work together. Or you need to say the therapist while we're working on your business. Like I'm fine to partner with your therapist.
Nancy: Yeah. I appreciate, I'm glad you said that about the specific coach, coaches that are specifically in things I think.
Where I have found the danger with coaches is someone who is gone through a divorce and then said, I can heal all people in divorces and, or they've saved their marriage, quote unquote. And now they can heal all people and saving their marriage. And there needs to be more to their body of work than just their own personal trauma or.
Hardship that they've overcome, it needs to be, your additional work, and I've done additional work in Brené brown. You've done additional work in Brené Brown, having that continual education piece behind the work, I think is what's important is one of the factors that support.
I agree. Cool. No not to be slamming all coaches.
Nicole: No, but it's a highly unregulated population that really, I can wake up tomorrow morning and say, I'm a coach. It just says it's just the facts, so we have to do our due diligence around
Nancy: it. Yeah. Okay. Nicole, thank you for this awesome conversation.
I'm so glad that to jump into the, I call this jumping into the deep water. But I'm contributing to the cultural norming that this is a scary thing. Instead of just being like, this is life, we've all lived parts of our lives that have had little T traumas and we need to address them in order to keep moving forward.
It's really that simple.
Nicole: Yeah. Just claim them. We don't have to get rid of them. We just claim them, recognize them, invite them in. And sometimes we find them out the play and it's just, it's a part of who we are. Yeah. So it's a part of being human.
Nancy: Chatting with Nicole reminded me of the power of shining a light on our history with empathy and kindness.
It isn't just about looking at the bright, shiny, happy moments, but at the times that were challenging and painful. Here's what I know to be true. Looking at our past isn't about getting stuck there, engaging in blame or playing the victim. Looking at our past is about self loyalty. It's about owning where you came from and all the messiness that went with it.
It's about having kindness and empathy for our inner kiddo who did the best she could with what she had. And if we don't acknowledge her, she'll come out to play in our future. The bottom line is how can we heal our lives when we're ignoring huge parts of our past.