Episode 139: Why Bother, What's the Point, and What To Do Next
In today’s episode, I am talking with Jennifer Louden, author, and pioneer in the personal growth movement about taking imperfect action towards our goals.
What’s the point?
Why bother?
Who cares?
It will never change…
Have you ever caught yourself uttering those words?
Perhaps you’ve said these to yourself when considering a career change or launching a creative project or even making a self-care plan. I know I have!
These questions can also be considered along the lines of what’s happening across the nation right now with social justice and equality.
Sometimes, we are so afraid of taking imperfect action and doing it wrong that we simply don’t bother at all. Instead, we stay stuck by not taking action at all and rehashing the ways we did it wrong in the past.
But we can do it differently.
We can take small, measured, imperfect action.
We can make progress toward desire.
Today’s guest, Jennifer Louden, is an expert in doing it differently. She is a personal growth pioneer and author of Why Bother?, helping readers discover the desire for what’s next in their lives. As an entrepreneur and educator, Jennifer has offered women’s retreats for over 25 years and reaches over 20,000 subscribers weekly.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
Why Jennifer was inspired to write the book, Why Bother?
How she realized that “holding her mistakes close” was actually holding her back
How our past—especially our family of origin—affects our current lives
Why it’s important to go beyond the idea that all of our creative endeavors must be useful or practical (and how that belief holds us back from trying new things)
Resources mentioned:
Jennifer’s Book, Why Bother?
Instagram: @jenlouden
Facebook: Jennifer Louden
+ Read the Transcript
Jennifer: What we know from the way our brains are built is it seems like it's much more of our default to be hard on ourselves than kind to ourselves. We do have, self-compassion built into our brain structure. We could call it, but it seems to need much more practice in activation. Then the ability to be critical.
Nancy: Why bother.
What's the point to what comes next? When I recorded this podcast with Jennifer Louden we were asking those questions in the context of a midlife crisis and personal development. But today, as I typed those questions, I'm struck with how they fit in the context of our larger world. As I record this intro, the world, we know it is in the midst of an upheaval.
One that in my opinion was a long time coming, but one that begs us to ask these questions in a different way. What's the point, what comes next? You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.
I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Listen to this podcast. I challenge you to see it through the lens of not only your personal life, but on the larger scale of our collective culture. Why should you bother? What's the point? What comes next? What's the point and why bother are two questions? I ask myself a lot, especially these days, I guess today Jennifer Louden takes these questions and expands on them in a comprehensive, approachable, beautifully written book called Why bother.
Jennifer Louden is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self care with her 1992 bestselling debut book, the woman's comfort book. She's the author of six additional books, including the woman's retreat book, the life organizer, and why. With close to a million copies of her books in print in nine languages.
Her work has been featured in people USA today, CNN and Brené brown books, daring, greatly and dare to lead as an entrepreneur and educator. Jennifer has offered women's retreats for over 25 years and our email newsletter reaches 20,000 subscribers weekly. She lives in Boulder county, Colorado. Jen is another one of my favorite teachers.
She models the idea that we are all in this together and trying to figure it out her book, why bother is incredible as Tara Moore says on the back cover, I'm telling you this book has never been written before, which is saying something in the self-help personal development space on this podcast. Jen and I talk about why she was inspired to write the book.
Why buy. How she realized that holding her mistakes close was holding her back, how our past, especially with our family of origin affects our current lives and getting beyond the idea that all our creative endeavors have to be useful or practical and how that belief keeps us from being creative and trying new things.
I am so excited today to bring you Jen Louden. I am. She's another person. I'm a fan girl of I've been following her for a long time and I'm welcome, Jen. So glad to hear.
Jennifer: I'm so glad that I'm here. And I just want you to know, I flossed the spinach out of my teeth before.
Nancy: That's great. Thank you. So Jen has just written a new book called why bother and on the back of the book is one of another, one of my favorite people.
Tara Moore said, I'm telling you this book has never been written before, which as you know is a huge compliment. So when I saw that, I was like, oh, come on. What did she pay Tara to have her say that? But I tell you people, this book has never been written before after reading it. So it encompasses everything, like it really encompasses the idea of what, of, how you get in your own way, how you engage in self care.
What do you do when you hit a crisis? How you get yourself through, like you could pick it up in a variety areas. In a variety of places in your life and find ways.
Jennifer: Oh, thank you.
Nancy: And you're welcome. So I I just love it. So let's dive in for following you for awhile. You used to talk about getting your scary shit done and and that was a big theme and why bother, really gets at that from a larger perspective.
Jennifer:. We circle around certain ideas in our work and our life, no matter what our medium, no matter what we're doing. And there's an idea in the book that encompasses that I've come to call it signature themes.
And I went to film school many years ago. And know that was something we learned in film school. Like our authors have signature themes and painters have signature things. People do to a signature theme of mine has always been how do I help myself and others make more of what we want, whatever that is.
So Get Your Scary Shit Done was one iteration of that. And some of the same tools that I use there, I built on for this book and this book really at first, it was for a couple particular people. I really believe when you're writing a book, it's very useful to have a particular reader in mind. So I had four people in.
Yeah. One was a woman who had never done anything she wanted. She had lived for everyone else and woke up one day and went, I hate everything about my life. I'm leaving my husband, but I don't know what I want. I don't know what I want. Another person had been really successful and was like, okay, I've done it.
And now. I don't know if I want to do it again because I know what it takes. And and so on. So I had this sort of middle-aged woman in mind, but then once I started talking about the book and sharing some of the ideas before it was published, I had people say, oh, My God. I was talking about the book to my 22 year old grandchild and they wanted, and I was talking to them and my nephew came to this and he's like, why aren't you writing this just for women.
I am in my why bother period. And so then I brought it up more stories and more perspectives because I also realized that I had seen it from the point of view of my life at these really big junctures in life. When you're faced with this question, what's the point and what do I want the point to be?
But he can also come through in little ways, right? It can come through in a day. It can come through in a way you need to change a project or reconnect with your spouse or your partner.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. Cause I think it does come up. Why bother comes up both times, like it doesn't have to be, I'm laying in bed at night, in a crisis being like, oh, what's the point?
It will come when I'm fighting with my husband and, writing a book, launching a podcast, right?
Jennifer: There's so many things like when you get to this place in your job and you're like, okay, What's not working. And I do want to say that we don't all use the words, why bother we use what's the point who cares?
She will never change. This is good enough. I it's too late. I'm too old. We have lots of ways that we language the fact that we believe there's no reason to bother.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All set. So one thing I loved, I picked a lot of little things to ask you about that were in the book. One thing I loved is there's so much out there about pick your next big thing and live your big, bold, beautiful life.
And I appreciated when you went through the things that. Stay that get in our way. One of them was it doesn't have to be such a grand thing. Like I don't have a grand thing, so it's why bother doing anything. And I loved that because that's one of mine. So of course I'm going to love it. But also I think a lot of my clients struggle with, they just want to have a good life and feel good in it.
They don't necessarily want to be climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or being on Oprah. Any of that stuff. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Jennifer: I mean, talk about a dominant culture story that is in the water and we drink it and, you used the word, just,
I just want a good life!?!? (laughter) I want a life that I lay down at night and I go, oh man, that was a good day. We all know intellectually. We read, lists of them, Kevin Kelly, the journalist and technology guy. Just put out a list of 62 things, and they're all like, it's not, I want to be famous, you want to be, have a good life, basically is his list. So we know this intellectually, but then we go on social media. Or then we watch Beyonce doing Beyonce thing, and then we're like, oh, holy shit. I'm not Beyonce. And it's a real, it's a real act of self love to know what we want and what size we want our life to.
What are you going to do? Yeah. Calm down go sit in the garden.
Nancy: Yes. And five star review because I almost, when I saw you had, cause I checked, before we came on and I was like, oh no, I just, because what if you get a four star, because now you have all these five stars, so the bar has been set.
Jennifer: I've got four stars in good reads.
I got a couple three stars on good reads, so that's okay. Okay. I'm getting used to it.
Nancy: The bubble has popped. Because I do think for me the why bother question popped up for those little things.
Jennifer: Sure. Makes up our life.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's true.
Jennifer: And it all goes back to, you said that this book encompasses so many things and it really does encompass self care in that if we're not taking care of our basic needs, then we're going to be even more likely to be hijacked by that story of I'm no good.
If I'm not beyond.
Nancy: Because I feel like, Because that clarify, I just because it's not an encompassed, so many things that I think don't get encompassed like it, instead of starting at step five and jumping forward, if you start at step one on the self care and the questioning and the inner critic and the mistakes and you really get the basic.
And do the depth of the basics that I think a lot of people in the self-help world just skip over because they're not sexy. They're not actually, but man, they are necessary.
Jennifer: So I, I wrote a post once that something about self care is not. Doesn't make you a goddess or something. It was funnier than that.
But I think because self care has become a $2 billion a year industry, it's all about the spa and the $700 scented candle. I hope there isn't one that really costs that much wine of Jayden. All of these things it's all grouped out. And lately my self-care is hormone replacement supernot sexy.
Jennifer: Yeah, getting it, drinking enough water, not eating so much sugar.
Nancy: exactly. And it's all individually. That's the, that's what I appreciated. Is it saying, what do you need for self care?
Jennifer: We've been sheltered. We sheltered in place pretty early. And we have not been going out on the mountain trails that we usually run on the weekends because they're pretty narrow. And at first they were really crowded and were like, oh, it's probably just a good idea to stay away from them.
But yeah, this past weekend we got up early and we went up and it was hard. It was raining. So it was hardly there because in Colorado, if it rains people like, oh, you must stay in doors. And so I felt really safe and who was great. And I've only lived here five years. I missed the green so much. No one else could tell me that self care for me is getting in the green for somebody else would be like, what are you talking about? For some people getting their nails done is self care for me it is torture.
Nancy: that I know is going to chip off and 2.5 seconds (laughter)
Jennifer: in two hours
Nancy: hours. Exactly. Yeah, no, but yes, my mom, she loves it. That's her. Treat to herself. Beautiful.
Jennifer: She looks down at those nails. And all I do is see those chips.
Nancy: Yeah. But she has a relationship with her person and they chat. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Very well. Very well said. Okay. For my, a lot of my work is around inner critic and being kind to yourself and I call the inner critic a monger is it's they spread propaganda and that's what a monger does. I love how you say we hold our mistakes close.
That was, so that phrase was so perfect because that is totally what we do. Can you talk a little more about that?
Jennifer: What we know from the way our brains are built is it seems like it's much more of our default to be hard on ourselves than kind to ourselves. We do have, self-compassion built into our brain structure.
We could call it, but it seems to need much more practice in activation, then the ability to be critical and there's different theories about it, but who knows, we all have experienced that. So the other, so that's part of it. The other part of it is we are afraid not of change. We are not afraid of having what we want.
You do not. I'm going to say you're not afraid of success. I think that's bull. I think what we're afraid of is being undefended. Because our primitive parts, our older parts of our brain and nervous system are like, I will be eaten. I will die consciously. Don't think that. So our mistakes become a way to stay defended and replaying them in this very harsh way is a way to say, look what you shouldn't do.
Don't do that again. You'll stay defended. And of course, then we have what everyone knows about the negativity bias in our brain. So that's also helping reinforce. Look, don't do that. You did, that. You did that. That you did that. We'll do that. And when I look at that, are you sure you saw it right?
Nancy: Let's replay it again, just in case
Jennifer, just in case, say three in the morning. Depending on your power, your post-menopausal stage.
Nancy: Exactly.
Give me a little more to beat yourself up about
Jennifer: we will have to changes sheets because they are soaking wet.
Nancy: Yeah. So I liked that idea of the safety. That we are. Because what, again, the message is, if you can't be kind to yourself, then there's something wrong with you, and instead it's the opposite.
Jennifer: Exactly. So much. I think of studying the brain is helpful for us because it makes us realize, oh, I'm a mammal.
Yes, I'm a mammal. And I'm wired the way all of these other mammals are wired. Plus I have this super sophisticated brain on top of it. And then we can begin to have so much more of a sense of. Oh, that's so adorable that I do that instead of I am oh, screwed up and I have to fix myself. I really think that part of that.
A couple of real disservices, the self-help personal growth coaching world has done to people. And I don't think for any reason on purpose, it's just crept in is that self-improvement is about fixing something that's wrong. Yeah. Instead of I'm doing this thing that bug s me, or I want more of that or what would it be like to grow in that direction?
No, it's such a different feeling in my body than if I could just stop eating so much cheese that I would finally be good enough.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Correct.
Even in my work, I used to spend a lot of time when I first started on helping people figure out what their inner critic looked like, and let's draw a picture and let's really dive into it. And what does it say, blah, blah, blah. And then I finally realized they know that's not the problem, once it's, once they could start recognizing it.
Pulling it apart from who they are,
Jennifer: which is so essential, right? Yeah.
Nancy: Then they got it. They don't need to work anymore on getting to know that voice It would just cause more anxiety and more am I doing it right? What they need help with is figuring out, and I call the voice of self-compassion the biggest fan. Figuring out, what is that voice sound like? And how can I talk to myself in that voice, which is almost always with curiosity.
Jennifer: Yes. And can I trust that voice? That's such a huge part of my experience is the old story myth, belief that a lot of us got from school or parents or whatever that yeah. The only way to succeed is to be hard on yourself. Yes. And thank God we have this huge body of research. Now that doesn't know that actually makes you go more towards numbing and more towards habits that don't make you feel good and away from real challenges and more into the fixed.
Nancy: But when you have it's so hard to let belief go where then you've been indoctrinated in it. I know for me that's. Yeah. And that's the thing I appreciate about your book is that, people would be like, you've written all these books, I'd be kind to yourself and you're like the master at beating yourself up.
Jennifer: Oh, sick of hearing that. And I would, first of all, I was so sick of hearing it. And then I would also be like, you have no idea you're wrong right inside my head, like on the outside, I'd go. Okay. But then I'd be like, I actually know the way to do this. And that's push myself harder on myself and beat myself up more.
I cannot stand the way you talk to her. Wow. Oh oh, fair enough. I'm my God. Okay. I could be really ashamed of this right now, or I could be really compassionate with myself right now and say, wow, you're right. I get it. Yeah. I remember that moment really well. I wanted to hide, I wanted to run a high and say, no, you're wrong.
Nancy: Yeah, but that's an awesome husband.
Jennifer: He's already got a big head. Everybody loves him because of how he comes across in the book. And that made him a monster. (laughter)
Nancy: That's great. You talk about security and action. Are the keys to moving beyond that negative thinking, and I'd never heard it presented in that way, but that's so freaking true.
Jennifer: Hey, I think that's been one of my gifts as a facilitator and teacher, is that ability to make people feel safe and start to internalize that. And then to also realize that it is, there is nothing about this, that you don't know how to do. Actually know how to take the next step and then pause and go.
What do I know now? And take the next step. You've been doing it your whole life, but that big, beautiful brain of yours we were talking about earlier. It's just getting in the way and going, are you sure that's the right next step? Do you remember that mistake you made?
Nancy: Let's go back and take an inventory.
Jennifer: Let's write them all down, watercolor their portraits.
Nancy: So it is just about stopping when you hear that and asking what's the next..
Jennifer: Yes. I think, there's, when, since we're talking about being stuck now, one of the things that I wrote in the book is that the thing that kept me stuck way past the natural point of the grief and loss of those period that I particularly write about in the book, there's more than one period of my life that I read about.
It was being cruel to myself. So I think if the practice that we find, however, we internalize it. However we learn. However, we put it together is that we understand that self cruelty may naturally occur, but we can let it pass on by like the clouds that are gathering and passing by outside the window.
And we can pay attention to the sky. And the sky is our, I think in my understanding is. Essential goodness that we have right. This, and we see it like right now so much during this pandemic, we see people being as we see people being incredibly stupid and awful, but forget about that, we also see people being so kind and, howling at eight o'clock at night in Colorado.
And I'm sure other states, clapping and beating pots and pans and raising money and. Sending cards to people they don't know, and in assisted living. And that is our nature. And we can be friend that and trust it in those moments of. The self cruelty and judgment coming through, like they'll, it'll still come through the weather system, but we can put our attention on that natural impulse to be kind to others and then extend it to ourselves.
Nancy: So it isn't something that you've healed.
Jennifer: Oh, I don't know. I feel like nothing is fixed. I don't even know what anything is anymore. I think the older, And the more I learn or be, or breeds the more I'm like, I have no idea who I am. I have no idea what's up or down. I really feel like I live in more and more of a question of, I don't know anything so it to heal sounds so permanent.
Nancy: No, totally. It was a loaded question.
Jennifer: I feel like, oh, and I said this in the book. Yeah. I don't know anything until I look back and then I go, oh, look at that. Or someone else reflects it to me and I'd go, oh yeah. And I say, and so many business and self-help books, they start with the great, here's the story of my horrible experience.
And here's the story of my triumph. And now I will show you how to do it too. And I write, I wrote in the book, I don't have one of those stories. I don't, I have moments of looking back and going shit. Things are getting better.
Nancy: Cause even the story you tell there's a, that's a pretty impactful.
Yeah. I liked how then you were like, and even after that, I wasn't like shazam I see the world.
Jennifer: And in fact, I didn't remember that story or tell anybody else about it for years. So it wasn't like I rushed home and said to Bob, you'll never believe what happened. And it wasn't like when I was writing the memoir that I wrote before this book that never worked, I didn't write that story in the memoir.
It completely escaped me. Yeah, I think it's interesting because we are mysteries to ourselves. Now we want to pin ourselves down like a butterfly, a dead butterfly with pins at we're not we're, this everything's fine. Tells us we may not need to have a self. We may not have a fixed self. We may we're debating it.
But, so that gives me a sense of just so much. It's just all so funny,
all this whole human thing oh my God, we are all hysterical.
Nancy: But I like I'll say the clients. Spent all my life looking out to figure it out. Like they, they know better. Yes. And once I turned it in, it was like, oh, there's so much here. And I think that's where the curiosity started.
It be like, oh, this is fascinating. There's all this stuff here that I'd been trying to get rid of because they didn't approve of it. Yes.
Jennifer: Beautifully said. That turning towards our own opinion that self-trust not because it's right. Or because someone else's, someone else gives it the stamp of approval, but because we.
It's our experience. This is my experience. Huh? Can I value it? Can I see it because it's mine. Yeah. And maybe I'll take action based on it. Maybe that actual work, maybe it won't, but that's not the validation I'm looking for. I think thing that really can drive me crazy is when people are like, oh, I listened to my intuition and then everything worked out and I'm like, that's great, but that's.
Besides the point is you listen.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah, exactly. That's so well said. It doesn't matter if it works.
Jennifer: we think I used to think self-trust meant I listened and it worked out and therefore I
Nancy: was right. Yes. Because we're so about the being, right.
Jennifer: Yeah. And then I would like, if I was fighting with Bob and something, wouldn't go, I wouldn't be able to, he has an incredible memory. He's a scientist and he's just he can just argue until the cows come home and I have a mind that's I don't remember what I said two minutes ago. And I've been like that my whole life.. So I'll be like, oh my God what I'll just lose.
I would lose myself entirely in our moments of something's not right. And it's taken me so long to just turn towards myself and go. I don't know what I said two minutes ago, but I'm experiencing this now. I can trust myself first and then you just share that, but not because it's right and I'm going to win.
Nancy: No. That's. Yes. Yeah. Cause I just, the idea of I'm going to hold on to that one, man, because I still have the, I listened to my intuition
Jennifer: like divine, get it right thing. We don't even know what intuition is. And we think mostly it's probably a ton of experience that you've internalized into your non-conscious awareness, and we
Nancy: AND we don't even know what right is no.
Jennifer: Right
Nancy: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing that I I loved that you devoted the whole section to your anger matters. Yes. Speaking of, trusting yourself So much of the message of just move forward. Don't look in the past, prevents us from seeing these messages because you share a story from your past and how it influenced your future when it comes to how you deal with anger and obviously being a therapist, I'm a big believer.
But I think that's some about how your past affects your future. But I think that's something that people, you know, that in the self-help industry were like, oh, we're just move forward. We don't look in the past. We're just moving forward. And we miss this stuff.
Jennifer: Yes. And also we're supposed to be positive all the time.
Yes.
Nancy: That makes me so mad. I'm with you. I devoted a whole chapter in my book to that being positive drives me crazy.
Jennifer: I'm not positive right now. Really pissed off. I'm pissed off and now I have to feel that. And then I have to decide if, what, how I want to do something about it. I don't want to ignore it because there's so much political action in that there's so much, when we ignore it, my simple point is when we ignore it over and over again, not only can we not make it sick, but it can be a factor in illness.
It's not anger. Doesn't make us sick by itself. And it's a fact can be a factor in illness. It seems to be from multiple studies. But yeah. Can easily lose why we bother. And I'm not saying we're going to walk around being angry, wake up first thing in the morning. What am I angry about? And that's what I'm going to bother about.
But the story of my mom, my dad telling my mom, she couldn't work, which is the story in the book. I think you're talking about is, was the most angry. I think I ever went. I'm pretty damn sure I was ever at my father who I totally had on a pedestal and. Because I couldn't didn't know what to do with it, because I was definitely raised in a household where women were not supposed to be angry.
Nancy: . Because the idea then was that as you became an adult, then you were empowering women to not be your mom.
Jennifer: Exactly to have grace. .
And to be able to bother about what you want to bother about,
Nancy: but you weren't empowering yourself. You were empowering other women. Yeah. I didn't see the connection
Jennifer:. I didn't see the connection. And somehow making that connection was really important for me going, this is what I do because there's a big thread in the book.
I think. Maybe it's not as clear to other people as it is to me after re writing it and reading it. I read it for the audio book I had to read. The whole damn thing is that I struggled with my work and how to get my bother on so many times in my life, because I wasn't accepting what I would call my Dharma that I wasn't accepting what was mine to do and what I couldn't help, but do I wanted to do something else, something different. So I kept watching it and rejecting it and judging it and not fully committing to it. I don't know whether that's true for anyone else. I'm not saying, I mean that everyone has something that they have to do in life and accept, but it truly was true for me.
Nancy: Because that's what I've loved about following you, prob. 10 12 years is that you're very honest with when you're struggling and what you've learned and how you figured it out. And so a lot of times I would go to your posts to just be like, oh, it's okay. Yeah.
Jennifer: How come we're not? I remember telling my daughter when she just turned 26 the day when everything goes the way you want, that's the day to look for the unicorns and go buy the lottery ticket.
Jennifer: That's really rare.
No, and that's not a bitter statement. That's not a then why bother? Oh, this is life. Life is so messy. And so I went predictable and right before you and I got on the batteries in my keyboard went out, I'm like, oh, wait, a teeny tiny thing, but that's what happens or you're just about to go on a podcast with someone and like suddenly you can't use your keyboard
On the platform, but back to your positive thinking thing, I just had a client reach out and she was, she said, I'm having a bad day. And I've been having such a good such good days. And now I'm having a bad day and I've been trying to talk to you, get in my biggest fan and get myself.
And it's just not working. And so I'm doing it wrong. And so I, I work with my clients via Voxer, so I voxed her back, which is a walkie talkie app type thing. So they can, we talk to each other multiple times in a day. And so I go Vox back to her and I was like, you're not this isn't a monger attack.
You don't, you're not in a bad mood because your inner critic is talking. You're just in a bad mood and you don't need to get out of that. But this isn't a mindset shift. This is just an owning where you are place. And she was like, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought about it like that. So I think anytime we're in a, to your anytime we're struggling or angry or overwhelmed, we're like I got to get out of this as quickly as possible because I'm doing something wrong.
Wow. Instead of no you're being a human, right?
Jennifer: There's a practice. I think it's a little bit in the book, but it's definitely an audio. There's all these extra things that go with the book and there's a URLs throughout the book. This, they go here and I made an audio for this, and this was a profound practice.
I think I learned like seven or eight years ago. So I started meditating at a very young age. And learned a lot of different meditation techniques, but I didn't learn this until my late adulthood. And that is to welcome what we're experiencing to say hi to it, to say this too, or hi, or that wonderful Rumi point poem, the guests.
That to me has been such a profound and really speaks to what your client is going through today. And I, know, I have to welcome what I'm feeling so many times a day, so many times a day, I'll stop to put my hand on my heart and go up. Huh I'm feeling I'm really missing my kids. We haven't seen them in months instead of just rushing past it or papering it over judging.
Nancy: Yeah. We all have our things, our statements of dis dismissing it, missing. And not trusting that it's that if it's a feeling it's there. It's
Jennifer: it’s here. And what my meditation teacher said was what is met can move.
I love that. Yeah.
Jennifer: I have to remember that a lot. What would I say no time for, or too painful or there's nothing I can do about it. Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps at camp. It just gets heavier and heavier
Nancy:. Because that's a funny, my mom she's. Seventies, late seventies.
And she loves the phrase for a long time. She and I would go back and forth because she loves the phrase soldier on, and that's one of her generational, suck it up, soldier on, keep going. And so she and I, after when my dad died, she was like, you say you hate soldier on, but that's what I'm doing.
And I was like, no soldier on means you just go and you don't feel anything. I'm just going to stiff upper lip it. And I said, what you're doing is feeling the sadness and living your life. And that's what we need to do. We need to be grieving, but also living. And we're trying to figure out that balance, right.
Jennifer:
And that balance and in deep grief sometimes. We do whatever we can to get through the day.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. She kept calling me saying, I'm doing what you're telling me to do. I'm doing the emotions thing and I'm still feeling it. And I was like good God, your partner, or 53 years just died.
So yeah.
Jennifer: Got news for you. It’s never going to stop
Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that moment shifted for her, this soldier on belief because she wouldn't do anything. But for you.
Jennifer: I think that reminds me of one of the ideas in the book. The self-compassionate grit to think that I would, grit just was grind.
And I just grind myself down to a rubble or self-compassion was quitting. It's oh, that's too hard with myself. I'll give up and take a nap. And then marrying the two to me was so profound. And so it made, it sounds like such an obvious idea now, but it was such like, oh wow. I can keep, I can stay in action.
I can work on the things that are hard. While I'm being kind to myself while I'm being kind to myself.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's on second character in my work is the BFF who is the false self-compassion like the go ahead. I have the third beer. And the BFF, all that, like that's where I would dance all the time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So think that's the end of my questions,
but I absolutely loved talking to you and I highly recommend, is there anything else you want to share about the book that you want people to pull from that I didn't give you the chance to shatter? I guess
Jennifer: maybe two things, one that asking why bother in your way that you ask whoever, right now, if you just listen into yourself, what have you been saying lately about like it's too late or I messed that up, so I don't get a second chance or.
He won't change, whatever it is what we're actually, we're not using the curiosity that you referenced earlier. We think we know the answer and that's really the big, first idea in the book. When you're asking why bother you think, the answer. But you really don't, you don't. And until you ask with true curiosity and until you awaken, and here's the second thing, a real freshened relationship with desire itself, not outcome.
Yes. Don't know what you bother about. And mostly what gets us not entirely, but mostly what gets us into this. Why bother periods is that we have turned our back on we're afraid of we have twisted off the flow of desire in our lives, and we won't let ourselves know what we want, enjoy what we want, pay attention to it.
And that's what grinds us down now. Lack of self care and societal and structural things like sexism and racism. And there's lots of other factors I find when we're talking about what we can influence directly. I find that desire is the key.
Nancy: Yeah, because you talk about that with the climate change, right?
How you had gotten into a, why bother. That's a great example.
Jennifer: I still do some days
I'm like really, I still got to keep working on conversation. Can we just think about both of them have to think time. Holy moly. But yeah, so for me, I've been an environmentalist since I was very young. My parents were always like, where did you come from? Not something I, I was raised in a very.
You played golf and tennis kinda lived in the country club kind of house. And my dad would be like your little environmentalist. And then I remember a little bit, little he'd be like, wow, you were right. You were right. But I gave, never gave up. I was still signed petitions and give money and such, but I really was falling into that internal, like it's too late.
It's too late. And yet I would get so pissed off to talk about anger again. When a friend would say, for example, I don't have kids and it's going to be bad after I'm dead. So I'm just going to keep flying around the world everywhere I went. And I was just like, I just want to stab you. So I had to start paying attention to that while I was writing the book and go, oh, this is where I got to get my bother on in some ways.
So I started learning more reading, more listening in on conference calls. Sharing stuff on social media. I had these two beautiful blog posts I heavily researched to share, but then the dynamic happened then oh, I don't think people want to be reading about climate change. I'm going to have to wait and save those for when we have a little bit more bandwidth right now, then in the future, rather, right?
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because one of the places, the why bother where I get, where I say, why bother is anything creative?
Jennifer: Interesting really. Tell me more about that.
Nancy: What are you going to do with it.? Where's it going to go? If I make a, if I make a picture or do some painting, then I throw it away or I hang it up or it's just like, why bother?
Jennifer: Yeah. So that's such a beautiful example of how we can mixed together the desire that arises in you, the desire to create. Maybe can you tell me more? Is it texture? Is it color? What is, tell me more about that desire.
Nancy: It's even, because I guess directly it would be like, even in writing something, like if I'm going to write something, it needs to be publishable on my blog or in a book.
I can't write for the joy of writing.
Jennifer: So that's a place that we can really, you just said it's Why bother? Because we have fused. The desire to create with words let's say, and have fun and be in that flow state and be curious, and maybe be a little itchy scratchy at the end, like where your craft might meet.
Like you have a vision and your craft isn't quite there and hang out there. And that's the desire. And then the culture that we were talking about at the beginning of the interview comes in and says so what the patriarchal culture, by the way, comes in and says why would you waste your time on that?
It's not going to get anything, right? So our desires become a consumer object. That really is it's like someone else is going to consume it. You're not going to consume it, but then they're going to consume something of yours back. And we, and then it's our life force just goes, it's like water in the desert.
Nancy: Yeah, that's so true because then you take that story. You take that away then the next one is you aren't much of a writer. Of course,
Jennifer: Because we don't like to be again, that defended that defendant, that emotional system, we don't like to be in the unknown playing until we have found ways to make ourselves feel defended in playing.
So at first we have to walk into that gap. There's a story in the book about a woman who's been really successful. She was a client. Really successful running her family's business and she was getting ready to, so I'd made a lot of money, had done tons of kudos in her community from her family. It was time to leave and she wanted to start writing and she was like, but I won't be able to do it as well.
As I've done this business, I'm not going to get any accolades or kudos, who knows if I'll ever do anything with it. And she was walking right into that gap. And in that gap is where all the juiciness and desire in life is. So we have to find ways to be safe there and curious to feel defended and curious.
And it's not that difficult. It's just a practice. Like anything else? Just like you've learned to do with the critic with people. Okay. It's a practice it's huh? Okay. So I actually. I don't know how I'm going to do this. What do I know? I know that I really been loving Antonio Machado's poetry.
Okay. That's one thing I know what if I get the book down and pick some words out and set a timer for 15 minutes to play with words, but oh my God, you got to be kidding me. That's going to be so pointless. It's not going to be like his poetry. It's okay, true. True enough. But where's that desire?
Is that worth it to me because I feel it because I am here and I promise you everybody. What I have learned so many times over is when we can practice that. The life force returns to us, desire, returns to us. And then we can begin to say huh. You know what? I think I actually want to learn more about ho a tree.
All right. We're not turning into a big project. That's what we all do.
Nancy: I'm going to write every day for a half an hour, blah, blah, blah.
Jennifer: And instead it's I'm going to get a book. I'm going to get married all over his book about photo. No. I looked down in no, that's too technical. Oh, I'm going to get that book about poetry as medicine and therapy. And I'm just going to play with a little bit, open a page at random and play with it.
And I'm just going to keep attending to that desire. I'll tell you exactly how it shown up in my life. Right now. I got a bunch of collage stuff from my down basement and I have it on the dining room table. And I've been calling. Period. No, one's going to see it. It's not going to get me anything. Wow.
And uploaded on Instagram, I'm not going to be like, oh, Jan, your collages are so cool. I'm just doing it. I have this hour in the day where my husband makes dinner. Bob love him. And he likes me to stay near him while he's making dinner. And I don't drink, which is.
He makes dinner and he has a cocktail and I love drinking, but it just doesn't, it's not something I want to do every day. It's not good for so many things. And it's a more of a weekend thing. And so I've been getting in the habit of having a glass of wine with him or a drink, and I'm like, I don't want to do that.
So what do I do? I'm like what do you desire? I desired art . Oh, would you have same thing? Same everything. You've said everything, but what's it going to get you? And where are you going to do with it? And you're not any good at it. And you're going to get paint all over the dining room table. And so collage go back to collage and just, oh my God, it's making me so happy
Nancy: and not even and I'm good at this is going to be a manifesting, everything I'm collaging.
Jennifer: Oh no I made this collage with a zebra. We got these cards when we were in Patagonia. Of this. Oh yeah. No, it was weird. Weird. I just want to play with color and paper and texture and yeah
Nancy: , I love that because I want to, because I love how you, I'm so glad that you walked us through that example, with the collage and my writing example.
Because it is such a cool of how you attended to the security and
Jennifer: exactly right. Yeah . Yes. So this is not, it's not difficult to do y'all, but it is so essential without this juicy relationship with desire. Unattached to outcome, unattached to the consumer culture, unattached to the patriarchy. We just lose our joy for life.
We lose our ability and we lose our ability and our energy to create the things we do want. Let's say I want my book to sell well that's something I really want. Will I get it or not? I don't know. I can't control that. The desire that I feel when I make a collage or the desire, I feel like to show up for this conversation and be really here with you.
Those will fuel some of the harder actions I have to take, like reaching out to people who don't return my emails. I'm reaching out to media that ignores me, thing. So it does feed the bigger picture, but it's not why we.
Nancy: Yeah. Yes. That's an important caveat. Yeah. Because
Jennifer: then that just puts flunks us right back into the, where we started.
Jennifer: Yeah. What you want to do y'all might not be art or creative or anything. It might be, I really want to make a pie. I don't know what I want to go play. I don't even eat pie. I want to make a box.
Nancy: Yeah. By, because I even recently started making bread.
I know it
dammit. I'm not like the whole time doing it. I'm like I just did it on Friday. I had so much fun. And we made two loaves and I'm like, we're not going to be able to eat two loaves. It's just my husband. And I am way making too much bread, like all that. And then I was like, who cares? We're making it's yeast and flour and water who cares.
I was like, but man, did I have you're not science minded and this is supposed to be about precision and you don't have precision, you're followed flighty, all that stuff. But then when I finished, I was like, I had so much fun.
Jennifer: This is beautiful. This is a beautiful example of following your desire and allowing it.
And then the noises there, the fonts are there. They're doing what they're doing, but you kept focusing on the pleasure, the needing the smells. This is a beautiful example, and we just need so much more of this. And when we're in a why bother question in our life or an area of our life, This is the, this is what turns it around.
Nancy: Ah, and we're going to end it on that note because that is perfect. Okay. People, I can't say enough. Good things. I'm right there with Tara Moore. This book has never been written before. Why bother discover the desire for what's next? We'll put a link in the show notes. Thank you, Jen, for showing up and walking us through this process in a really cool,
Jennifer: Hey, total pleasure.
It was so much fun.
Nancy: I loved this interview with Jen. She is someone I've admired from afar. So being able to interview her and pick her brain it was amazing. My biggest takeaway was the idea of how we talk to ourselves out of exploring our creativity or passions, because it isn't practice. Man. Oh man, is this something I do on a daily basis?
I walked away from this interview with new insight, into my own creativity and how I can open myself up to doing activities just because I think they'd be fun. Not because there are practical. Whoa. Isn't that a conscience? Again, this concept can be taken to what is happening in our larger national picture.
We are so afraid of taking imperfect action and doing it wrong. We forget that not taking action and rehashing all the ways we've done it wrong in the past. As Jen would say, holding our mistakes. Just keeps us stuck. We forget that each day we can do it differently. We can take small measured, imperfect action.